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What Were The Crusades Like From The Muslim Side? With Prof. Nicholas Morton · The Smart Cookies podcast

0:00
Obviously, there's a major reaction to the First
0:02
Crusade. And so when the Crusaders besieged the
0:05
city of Antioch, now it's in southern Turkey,
0:10
very much on the border between Turkey and Syria,
0:13
there are reports of volunteers waging jihad,
0:18
or the lesser jihad, I should say, against...
0:21
against the crusaders so there is a jihad response
0:24
to the crusades almost immediately and of course
0:27
just to clarify you said a lesser jihad and the
0:30
bigger jihad is the spiritual one and the lesser
0:33
one is the military one okay absolutely the thing
0:37
is that the main the major opponents to the crusaders
0:40
the people who they fight more than anyone else
0:42
are either the seljuk turks or the various turkish
0:46
dynasties that emerge from the seljuk empire
0:48
but the seljuk turks themselves are in the process
0:52
of converting to Islam, they have no heritage
0:55
of fighting jihad because they are themselves
0:58
new converts. So it takes quite a long time.
1:03
Ladies and gentlemen, we are in for a treat because
1:06
we are joined by none other than champion of
1:08
the show, Professor Nicholas Morton, acclaimed
1:11
historian of the Crusades, author of the upcoming
1:13
book, Crusader Storm, that comes out June 4th.
1:17
Professor Morton, welcome back to the program.
1:20
It's great to be back on the show. Thanks for
1:22
inviting me. Your immensely hard work writing
1:25
all of these books basically equals my good fortune
1:27
because every time you have a new title out,
1:30
I feel like I'm already there kind of standing
1:32
behind you, tapping you on the shoulder like,
1:34
hello, professor. I think it's time. I think
1:37
it's about time we record another one. So thank
1:40
you for that. I am grateful. I always enjoy being
1:42
on the show. That's no trouble at all. All right.
1:46
The first time around, we did two parts of the
1:48
Crusades, if you remember, more or less from
1:51
the Western, so Crusaders' point of view. And
1:54
the next time we talked about the Mongol invasions,
1:56
which you wrote about in your book, The Mongol
1:58
Storm. And that's the undeniable appeal of this
2:02
area in this period, isn't it? It's relentless.
2:05
It's action -packed. Just when you think everything's
2:08
finally settled down and you can kick back and
2:11
chill, have a Bloody Mary or something, suddenly
2:13
another... sassy power stirs in the east and
2:16
completely reshuffles the map it must be super
2:20
fun to to study this period so i understand why
2:23
you do that i mean some historians have to grapple
2:25
with the production of stamps in 19th century
2:28
finland or something yes indeed i mean one of
2:31
the things as you say is so interesting about
2:33
this period is that yeah the books about the
2:36
middle east and yet the lines connecting the
2:40
Middle East to so many other parts of the world.
2:42
This is the medieval period. It's fascinating.
2:45
I mean, I'm talking about a world in which crusader
2:48
knights are playing chess, which is an Indian
2:51
invention. The knights hospitaller are eating
2:53
off Chinese porcelain. People in the major cities,
2:57
if they're wealthy, they're wearing silks from
2:59
China. There's ornaments made from ivory from
3:03
sub -Saharan Africa. Much of the food they're
3:07
eating is from Southeast Asia with all the spices
3:10
and things like cardamom and cumin and pepper
3:13
and things like that. You've also got interesting
3:16
little nuggets like crusaders experiencing bananas
3:19
for the first time. So there really is an international
3:22
dimension here in the way that you look at the
3:26
Middle East, which is absolutely fascinating.
3:28
Would you like to know what the crusaders thought
3:29
of a banana? That was my next question. What
3:33
did the Crusaders, what did they think about
3:35
the bananas when they had them for the first
3:37
time? Well, it's quite difficult, isn't it? Because
3:39
if you describe to someone what a banana tastes
3:42
like, if they've never had a banana before, then
3:47
what do you say? You can't say it tastes bananary.
3:50
So the best description I've heard was from a
3:54
13th century bishop who wrote to someone in Western
3:58
Europe describing. a banana and saying it tastes
4:02
like butter mixed with honeycomb, which actually
4:06
isn't a bad description if you've never encountered
4:10
a banana before. Texture is there, isn't it?
4:14
Butter and banana. There is something to it.
4:16
There is, but you still miss the banana -iness,
4:18
but I'm not sure how you do that. It's kind of
4:20
crazy because I can walk to any little or big
4:23
shop. And I have bananas, I have orange, I have
4:26
all of this fruit, I have all of these foods,
4:28
I have tacos, I have whatever I want. And then
4:30
you had to be a specific type of bishop in the
4:35
13th century to get a chance to once in your
4:39
life try a banana. That's already a completely
4:42
different world, isn't it? Yeah, there's so many
4:44
of these things. I think what makes the medieval
4:47
Middle East so interesting is looking at it in
4:51
terms of through medieval eyes. This is a world
4:55
that people don't know anything about. There's
4:56
no maps. So automatically, Middle East. OK, map
5:01
of the world. There it is. We can see the coastline.
5:04
We can see the shape of the region. It makes
5:07
sense to us. To a medievalite, they know none
5:09
of this. They don't know the basic shapes of
5:13
the land masses. They don't know the names of
5:14
the cities. To a Western European commentator,
5:17
they may have read the Bible. But in sort of
5:19
political terms, that's a thousand years out
5:22
of date. And you only get maps that are good
5:24
enough to actually navigate by until a century
5:27
after the events described in the book. You've
5:30
got crusading armies that get halfway through
5:33
Germany and say, OK, so where's Jerusalem then?
5:35
They don't know. And so just that business of
5:39
different cultures, yes, Western Europe, but
5:42
also all sorts of Eastern Christian and Muslim
5:46
societies as well. This is an era where their
5:49
knowledge horizon, so the extent of their awareness
5:52
of the wider world, is expanding rapidly. And
5:56
that's an interesting phenomenon. Yeah, I just
5:58
remembered how, you know, I'm originally from
6:00
Slovenia and every summer we went to Croatia.
6:02
And when I was a child, after like 15 minutes
6:06
of my dad driving us there, I asked like, so
6:08
where's the beach then? Where's Croatia? Like
6:12
crusaders asking in the middle of Germany, where's
6:15
the Holy Land? What's happening? They don't know.
6:18
Of course, them writing back about what they
6:22
find interesting and what they find new is fascinating.
6:27
One of the things they really like about the
6:29
Middle East is the sugar. They're not used to
6:33
this. So sugar, sugar cane. This is, curiously,
6:38
the whole period of the Crusades. is a period
6:41
where Western Europe really acquires a sweet
6:44
tooth and sugar becomes a major, a very expensive
6:47
item for aristocratic families. So teeth decay
6:51
is an important part of this process. Yeah, I
6:53
was just about to ask if their teeth withstood
6:56
that journey then. A conversation for another
7:00
time. Okay, as I said in the beginning, we talked
7:03
about the first crusade before in detail, but
7:06
like the Mongol storm, The amazing thing about
7:09
your latest book, Crusader Storm, is that it
7:12
illuminates these sweeping world altering events
7:16
from various different perspectives. So I was
7:19
thinking that this time we would provide a sort
7:21
of a bit of a mirror image to those two episodes
7:24
we did before, which at least in the West is
7:27
rarely, if ever, done. We always only hear about
7:30
the Christian side of the Crusades. So let us
7:33
remedy that a little bit today. Absolutely, yeah.
7:37
The First Crusade was famously launched by Pope
7:39
Urban II in 1096, and by the following year,
7:44
the crusading army arrived at Constantinople
7:46
at the behest of the Byzantium, who had asked
7:49
for help. Technically speaking, the first expedition
7:52
was the so -called People's Crusade, a bunch
7:54
of poor folks, not an experienced or serious
7:58
army, and they get massacred as soon as they
8:00
step into Anatolia by the Seljuks. So we'll put
8:03
that aside, and if you're interested in that,
8:04
go listen to that previous episode. episode you
8:07
won't regret it but what's actually happening
8:09
in the middle east just before any of these strange
8:13
foreigners that never tasted bananas before from
8:16
the west suddenly show up who's calling the shots
8:20
where so the middle east on the eve of the crusades
8:24
is an extraordinarily complex environment and
8:28
you're right When you hear about the history
8:31
of the Crusades, you hear about it generally
8:33
from the Western perspective. It's a list of
8:36
all the actions and battles and sieges of the
8:38
Crusading army. Or perhaps a few books might
8:41
talk about the Christian perspective and the
8:43
Muslim perspective. I'm not doing either of those
8:46
things because the Middle East was and is extraordinarily
8:51
complicated. There are so many different cultures
8:54
and communities. A hundred years before the first
9:01
crusade arrived, the region is part of the Abbasid
9:05
Caliphate. Within the Abbasid Caliphate, you
9:08
have communities of Kurds and Arabs, including
9:13
many Bedouin communities. You've got Eastern
9:16
Christians from various different denominations,
9:19
Syriac Christians, Armenian Christians, Orthodox
9:23
Christians. And then to the north, you have the
9:26
Byzantine Empire. So even then, it's a complex
9:30
landscape. And then you have a massive invasion
9:35
from the Central Asian steppe region. And this
9:39
is something that's really important for grasping
9:41
the history of pretty much any period before
9:44
1600, which is that the big fear, whether you
9:48
live in the Middle East, whether you live in
9:51
Western Europe or Eastern Europe or anywhere
9:54
in Eurasia, the big fear. is nomadic invasion.
9:59
And this has happened a lot. And so we could
10:02
talk about the Huns and the Roman Empire. We
10:05
could talk about the building of the Great Wall
10:07
of China. We could talk about the Avars or the
10:10
Magyars into Eastern Europe. And we can talk
10:14
about the Seljuk Turks. Because the Seljuk Turks
10:18
were a confederation of nomadic peoples that
10:22
invaded the Middle East starting in about the
10:25
year 1000. And so they advance into Persia, that's
10:29
modern day Iran, then further into Iraq, further
10:33
into Syria, and they're conquering everyone.
10:35
Persian communities, Kurdish communities, Arab
10:38
communities, the Abbasid Caliphate is overthrown,
10:41
the Abbasid Caliph survives, but very much...
10:46
sort of in an awkward position facing... Excuse
10:49
me, just a quick question. Are they already Muslim
10:51
by that point? Yeah, this is a good question,
10:55
because the Seljuk Turks in their origins, for
10:58
the most part, seem to have been shamanistic
11:00
in their beliefs. They converted to Islam over
11:04
a very long period, but even during the First
11:06
Crusade, that conversion process isn't complete.
11:11
And we have a First Crusade account. talking
11:14
about the Turks burying their dead with grave
11:16
goods, which is very much a Central Asian practice.
11:19
So about 20 years before the Crusaders arrive
11:23
in Syria, the region has already been conquered
11:26
by the Turks, and they have suppressed all other
11:30
communities in that area. So it's already a war
11:34
zone. And then if you sort of spool down to Egypt,
11:38
you have... what's called the Fatimid Caliphate,
11:42
a sheer Islamic caliphate. And this is the only
11:45
power, really, pre the Crusaders that's shown
11:49
a consistent ability to hold its frontier against
11:53
the Seljuk Turks. So the Crusaders advance into
11:56
the Middle East as a fascinating time. This is
11:58
why I wrote the book from so many perspectives,
12:01
because you have the Crusaders, of course, and
12:04
the Byzantines. You have the Seljuk Turks and
12:07
their various commanders. but you've also got
12:10
the peoples that they have subjugated, Eastern
12:12
Christians, Arab Muslims, Bedouin tribes, Kurdish
12:16
communities, and the Fatimid Caliphate. So this
12:19
is a map on which there are many different players,
12:23
all of whom have got different agendas, whether
12:26
to survive, expand, or defend themselves. And
12:29
so it's bringing out that fascinating complexity
12:32
of the region. That's what I'm trying to achieve
12:35
with the book. So could we even... Talk about
12:38
the Muslim world at that time in that region?
12:42
Yeah, I mean, large areas of the Middle East
12:45
are under Muslim rule. And so you could talk
12:47
about the Muslim world in that respect. But it's
12:51
worth keeping in mind that the various rulers
12:53
and commanders and communities across that area,
12:57
they can be very different. And of course, that
12:59
includes both branches of Shia Islam and Sunni
13:03
Islam. And perhaps one of the smaller groups,
13:05
but one of the more famous ones. is the Nizaris,
13:09
who are also known as the assassins, amongst
13:12
these groupings as well. So it's a complicated
13:16
map, whichever way you look at it. And the way
13:20
I try and deal with that in the book, in a way
13:22
that can be easily understood, to sort of introduce
13:26
this complex world, is to pick on particular
13:30
individuals. So in the book, We follow the events
13:34
of this era through the eyes of particular individuals
13:37
who act a bit like guides for us through these
13:40
events. And they include a crusader princess,
13:44
an Arab aristocrat, a Turkish nomadic leader,
13:49
the mother of the ruler of Damascus, the Fatimid
13:54
vizier, the chief minister. So we're looking
13:56
at... these events from a range of different
13:59
perspectives and showing how, over time, the
14:02
collision and engagements between these cultures
14:05
drives events forwards. We won't have the luxury
14:10
to go through all of those, and that's why you
14:12
have to buy the book. But last time, you said
14:16
the Crusaders knew next to nothing about these
14:19
lands that they were invading. I think you said
14:21
that in their letters, most of the European knights
14:23
just said, We're going somewhere very far away
14:26
to fight pagans. That's all they knew. So for
14:29
them, it was a bit like an expedition to Saturn
14:31
or something. What about the other way around?
14:34
What did the Turks or the caliphate in Egypt,
14:39
the Muslim world, what did they know about Christian
14:42
Europe? Yeah, you're right. So you're right.
14:46
For the Crusaders, the term they use most commonly
14:49
when they're setting out on their expedition
14:51
is pagans. They have no idea, really. who they're
14:55
going to be facing. And for them, pagans doesn't
14:57
mean pagan in the modern sense. It simply means
14:59
unbaptized in their own understanding. So just
15:03
non -Christians are not quite sure who. But from
15:05
the other perspective, there is some knowledge
15:09
of Western Europe in the Middle East. Pilgrims
15:12
have visited Jerusalem on many occasions prior
15:15
to the First Crusade. There is also a merchant
15:19
presence there, two or various merchant cities
15:22
who do business with the ports of Egypt or the
15:26
Levantine coast. There's some knowledge. But
15:30
that's among the established communities in the
15:33
Middle East. It's much less likely that the Seljuk
15:36
Turks, who have just arrived from Central Asia,
15:39
it's much less likely that they've got a significant
15:41
knowledge of Western Europe at this point. Although,
15:46
of course, they'll learn a great deal more about
15:48
each other. But it's really interesting to see
15:50
what the Crusaders make of the Seljuk Turks,
15:54
who they've never met before, and what the Seljuk
15:57
Turks make of the Crusaders. And they know very
15:59
little about them too. And over the decades covered
16:03
in this book, all those various different communities
16:06
learn a great deal more about each other, whether
16:09
that's through war or confrontation or diplomacy
16:13
or friendship. or trade, or alliances. There's
16:18
a whole spectrum of different interactions in
16:21
which they learn so much more about each other.
16:23
But would it be safe to say that the Seljuk Turks
16:27
are not exactly intimidated or super phased once
16:32
the first the People's Crusade. So the poor folks
16:37
coming into Anatolia show up because they...
16:40
just get massacred immediately. Seljuk Turks
16:43
are not in awe. What is this strange alien force
16:46
suddenly appearing in our lands? They're much
16:49
more wary and, shall we say, pragmatic, in a
16:52
sense. Yeah, so the Seljuk Turks, by the time
16:55
of the First Crusade, have already created an
16:58
empire for themselves that stretches from the
17:01
borders of Central Asia and sort of Afghanistan
17:03
in the east, all the way to the Mediterranean.
17:07
So they are already very, very experienced military
17:10
commanders and conquerors. It would take a lot
17:13
to intimidate them at that point. The only society
17:16
that's really managed to hold them out by the
17:19
time of the First Crusade is the Fatimid Empire
17:21
in Egypt. So yeah, they're not phased by the
17:25
Crusaders, at least not initially. As you say,
17:28
the first wave gets annihilated, but then the
17:31
second wave... which proves a lot more effective,
17:34
begins to defeat Seljuk field armies. And that's
17:37
when they realize they've got trouble on their
17:39
hands. One of the chief complaints that served
17:41
as a pretext for the first crusade was the supposed
17:44
violence against the Christian pilgrims flocking
17:47
to Jerusalem, like you mentioned. But this is
17:50
where things seem to get a little bit tricky,
17:52
as opposed to Christians who thought of non -Christians
17:56
as pagans if they weren't baptized. Like we just
18:01
said, in the Quran, Jews and Christians are called
18:03
people of the book, aren't they? Which is a special
18:05
designation, and as such, they can't just be
18:08
cut down like wheat or something. So what was
18:11
really happening there with the pilgrims and
18:14
with Christians in Muslim lands in general, would
18:17
you say? Sure. So before the arrival of the First
18:21
Crusade, the region around Jerusalem is in a
18:25
very difficult position. The climate's changing.
18:29
It's getting drier and hotter, which means that
18:32
some of the aqueducts, or even long before this,
18:35
aqueducts serving Jerusalem have already dried
18:37
up. You've got an increase in the spread of deserts,
18:41
and that's driving agricultural communities away.
18:45
The area is much more controlled by nomadic groups.
18:49
And then you have a war between the incoming
18:52
Seljuk Turks and the Fatimids in Egypt and Jerusalem.
18:57
is right on the frontier. Now, the Fatimids controlled
19:01
Jerusalem for a long time. They don't have a
19:04
problem with Western European pilgrims visiting
19:07
Jerusalem. Jerusalem, though, also, and the area
19:11
around it, has a large Christian population.
19:13
Now, of course, they know a great deal more about
19:16
Islam and the Middle East than Western European
19:18
Christians, of course, because they live there.
19:21
But there does seem to be a situation where they
19:24
are suffering quite badly. Now, Whether we should
19:27
speak of that as persecution isn't clear. What's
19:32
always struck me as likely is that because the
19:35
Jerusalem area was on the frontier of war between
19:38
the Seljuk Turks and the Fatimids, this is a
19:41
sort of a no man's land between two rival empires.
19:44
And there's a great deal of fighting and skirmishing
19:46
and battles. It may just be that disordered landscape
19:50
between these two empires that means that people
19:53
are vulnerable crossing it. But there are certainly...
19:56
pressures and stories of the mistreatment and
20:00
attacks on pilgrims which get back to western
20:03
europe and they play a part and there's lots
20:06
of reasons of the cause for the launch of the
20:08
first crusade but that's certainly one of the
20:11
reasons that could be given for the launch of
20:13
the crusade i did read that just before the crusades
20:17
happened there was a fatimid caliph al -hakim
20:21
bi -amr allah whom his opponents later called
20:24
mad and who was apparently bent on annihilating
20:28
his Christian and Jewish subjects. One of his
20:31
more egregious acts was ordering the destruction
20:33
of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, where Jesus
20:36
was supposedly crucified. So basically the holiest
20:39
site in Christianity. And news of this outrage
20:42
spread throughout Europe like wildfire and was
20:45
used apparently to galvanize support for the
20:49
Crusades. So this is about... 80, 90 years before
20:54
the First Crusade. And the Fatimid Empire, in
20:58
most cases, was actually reasonably tolerant
21:01
by sort of medieval standards of its Christian
21:04
population, except under the caliphate of al
21:08
-Hakim, who certainly was very aggressive towards
21:12
the Christian population. Now, in the wake of
21:15
the various attacks on local Christians, it does
21:18
seem to have been some kind of effort. on the
21:20
part of the papacy to possibly launch some kind
21:24
of expedition to the middle east but nothing
21:26
came of it it didn't result in anything whether
21:30
that still influenced events as late as the first
21:33
crusade it doesn't come up very much in fact
21:36
several crusade authors actually expressed regret
21:40
for ever having to go to war with the Fatimids,
21:44
because actually they know very well the Fatimids
21:47
allowed their pilgrims to go to Jerusalem. The
21:49
Crusaders really didn't want to fight the Fatimids,
21:52
and it's only after a long period of diplomacy
21:54
that eventually the two sides couldn't reconcile
21:59
their differences, and so fighting broke out.
22:02
Yeah, I also read that al -Hakim's son immediately
22:05
restored the church of the Holy Sepulchre, so
22:08
it must have been... an outlier, like you say.
22:11
Did any of the Muslim powers you mentioned before
22:14
have any inkling of an idea that this massive,
22:18
strange Western European military expedition
22:22
is on their doorstep, either the Fatimids or
22:26
the Seljuks? Well, the simple answer is no. Because
22:30
you said there is a merchant presence in the
22:35
Byzantium Empire. There must have been some diplomats,
22:38
maybe even spies. None of that. Not really. It
22:43
seems to have come as a surprise. I've never
22:46
heard of any reports from the period saying that
22:49
anyone was anticipating this happening. But there
22:51
are two sort of other things to mention here.
22:54
The first is that the crusade was new, but the
22:57
Byzantine Empire previously had tried on several
23:00
occasions to regain its territories, whether
23:03
in Anatolia, that's modern day Turkey, or further
23:06
south in Syria, the Holy Land region, which had
23:11
formerly been part of the Byzantine Empire. So
23:13
there is that background to it. Another factor
23:18
is that the Crusaders sent diplomats to Egypt,
23:22
to the Fatimid Empire, long before they got to
23:25
the region, because they were hoping for an alliance
23:28
with the Fatimid Empire against the Seljuk Turks,
23:31
working on the basis that my enemy's enemy is
23:35
my friend. They have no problem at all with the
23:37
idea of creating alliances with non -Christian
23:39
powers. That's absolutely fine as far as they're
23:41
concerned. We know this for feudal Europe, but
23:45
how did different Muslim powers, in this case,
23:47
the Seljuk Turks and the Fatimids, kind of square
23:51
off the fact that they're all Muslim, that they
23:55
belong to this same religion, and that under
23:59
the umbrella of this religion, this is seen as
24:01
probably... less than desirable in fighting.
24:06
Yeah, so there's lots of things going on. On
24:09
one hand, the most powerful Islamic empire in
24:14
the region is the Seljuk Turks. And as we mentioned,
24:17
they're in a long -term process of conversion
24:21
to Sunni Islam, but that process is still ongoing
24:24
at the time of the First Crusade. They're ruling
24:28
over a population that includes many Sunni...
24:32
Muslim communities and also Shia Muslim communities,
24:35
but also Eastern Christian and Jewish communities
24:37
as well. And it can't always be assumed that
24:43
Muslim communities under Seljuk rule will automatically
24:47
see the Seljuks as being desirable rulers because
24:51
they've been overthrown previously by the Seljuk
24:54
Turks themselves and the Seljuk Turks weren't
24:56
gentle. You've also got many... many smaller
25:02
groups, and indeed you've got a Shia Islamic
25:05
presence as well. I mentioned the Nizaris, for
25:08
example, or the assassins, very famous in the
25:12
modern day. Well, they're a branch of Shia Islam,
25:15
and they're intensively persecuted by Sunni authorities
25:18
in Persia, Iraq, and Syria. And in many cases,
25:25
you actually have migration of Nizaris out of
25:29
Sunni Islamic territory into Crusader territory
25:32
in later years because the Crusaders are indifferent
25:35
to them, whereas that they'll be persecuted under
25:38
Turkish rule. And then there's the language barrier
25:41
as well, in that the Seljuk Turks speak Turkish.
25:45
They don't necessarily speak Arabic. So they
25:47
can't necessarily communicate with a common language
25:50
with the Muslim population. under their rule.
25:53
So there are lots of factors here that shape
25:56
the nature of relations within the various Muslim
26:00
communities in the Middle East at this time.
26:02
And language, ethnicity, the rulers and commanding
26:09
authorities and families, they all play their
26:12
part in shaping the nature of that landscape.
26:15
Now sometimes there are calls for making a common
26:18
cause. against a particular opponent but they
26:21
don't happen as frequently as you might think
26:23
and equally that there's there are plenty of
26:26
moments where the christians are on both sides
26:28
of the battlefield not just all on the same side
26:31
yeah it's funny isn't it how it works uh how
26:35
with european history i'm totally um willing
26:39
to concede that all of these various factions
26:42
and different kingdoms and duchies and and kings
26:45
and later on denominations are fighting each
26:48
other or sometimes they're allied against another
26:50
enemy but that it's all very complex but when
26:53
it comes to the muslim world it's just the unified
26:56
muslim world in my eurocentric mind probably
26:59
spurred on by eurocentric education i'm not willing
27:02
to concede it you know to to other regions um
27:06
i wanted to bring out in my book really because
27:11
I think the way that people understand the Crusades
27:14
can be quite straightforward in some ways. People
27:16
imagine a map of the Middle East and then think
27:19
there's probably a line somewhere on that map
27:21
with Christian territory on one side and Muslim
27:23
territory on the other. What I'm trying to do
27:26
in my book here, by looking at events from multiple
27:29
perspectives, some Western European, some Eastern
27:33
Christian, some Muslim, is to show the complexity
27:36
of all the different communities. There are Muslims
27:40
fighting on the Crusaders' side on some occasions.
27:44
There are Christians, even Western Europeans,
27:46
fighting on the Muslims' side on some occasions.
27:49
The reasons for conflict are various. There's
27:52
holy war, sure, but people also fight for trade,
27:56
opportunism, just balance of power, the ambitions
27:59
of a particular family, population movements.
28:03
The causes for war can be various, and that can
28:06
often lead to having people of different faiths.
28:09
on both sides of the battlefield. It's never
28:12
as simple as just the Christian side and the
28:14
Muslim side. It's much more intertwined than
28:17
that. After the Crusaders, against all odds,
28:20
managed to take Jerusalem, what kind of shockwaves
28:22
is this sending throughout the region? It does
28:27
send shockwaves, most notably from a religious
28:30
perspective, in that naturally Jerusalem is a
28:34
crucially important and sacred city. to Christianity,
28:39
Islam, and Judaism. So the conquest of Jerusalem
28:42
by a crusading army from the city's previous
28:46
Muslim rulers, but Jerusalem also included a
28:49
large Jewish population as well. That will send
28:53
out major shockwaves, but it's also well known
28:57
in the period among writers at the time and among
29:01
contemporaries that this is also a war zone.
29:04
It's been a war zone for a long time. And so
29:07
in that sense, it's not introducing a new element
29:10
of upheaval. It's introducing a new faction to
29:13
that upheaval. But it's already a major conflict
29:16
zone already. So a crusade is a holy war, right?
29:21
Conceptualized to reclaim the Holy Land, at least
29:23
the first one. But once they lose it, theologically
29:27
speaking, do these Muslim powers resort to something
29:32
similar in order to try to unify their ranks?
29:36
at all yeah so the pope launched the crusade
29:40
as a christian holy war so this is no longer
29:43
the papacy is no longer discussing a just war
29:46
which would be a war that god will tolerate this
29:50
is a holy war which is at least presented by
29:53
the church at the time as a war that is in direct
29:56
alignment with god's will so that is the first
30:00
cruise the first crusade it is conceived as a
30:03
holy war now For Muslim commentators at this
30:08
time, there is a reaction. Obviously, there's
30:11
a major reaction to the first crusade. And so
30:14
when the crusaders besieged the city of Antioch
30:17
in what now it's in southern Turkey, very much
30:21
on the border between Turkey and Syria, there
30:24
are reports of volunteers waging jihad or the
30:29
lesser jihad, I should say, against. against
30:32
the crusaders so there is a jihad response to
30:35
the crusades almost immediately and of course
30:38
just to clarify you said a lesser jihad and the
30:41
bigger jihad is the spiritual one and the lesser
30:43
one is the military one okay absolutely um the
30:48
thing is that the main the major opponents to
30:50
the crusaders the people who they fight more
30:52
than anyone else are either the seljuk turks
30:55
or the various turkish dynasties that emerge
30:58
from the seljuk empire but the seljuk turks are
31:02
in the process of converting to Islam, they have
31:05
no heritage of fighting jihad because they are
31:09
themselves new converts. So it takes quite a
31:12
long time for concepts of jihad to spread among
31:16
the various Turkish communities in the area.
31:18
For example, in 1119, there's a battle called
31:22
the Field of Blood, and the Turkish commander
31:25
of the Field of Blood, a commander called Ilgazi,
31:29
and apparently... the Qadi from Aleppo gave a
31:36
sort of oration, a speech to the troops before
31:39
they marched off to fight the Crusaders, to which
31:42
the Turkish troops responded, why are we listening
31:45
to a man in a turban? It's got a hostile response.
31:49
So they're not necessarily open to being given
31:53
this kind of concept early on because they're
31:55
still in the process of converting. That's still
31:58
got a way to run. But later on, under leaders
32:02
like Nur al -Din, and further on under Saladin,
32:06
concepts of jihad begin to gather momentum until
32:10
they become a central element of the wars fought
32:13
against the Crusaders, or the Eastern Franks
32:16
as they become known. As opposed to the First
32:20
Crusade, the second one, and correct me if I'm
32:22
wrong, but even though a bunch of actual kings
32:25
participated in it, is a disaster for the Europeans.
32:28
Even so, The kingdom of Jerusalem remains in
32:32
Christian hands. That is until one of the bona
32:35
fide celebrities that you just mentioned of the
32:38
era showed up on the scene. And that man was
32:41
Salah ad -Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub, also known as
32:45
Saladin. Tell me about this legendary future
32:48
sultan of Egypt and his rise. Yes. So in the
32:51
wake of the first crusade, there are three territories
32:55
created by the crusaders called the Crusader
32:57
States. And they expand for a few decades, and
33:01
they sort of reach a high point in terms of their
33:04
territorial expanse. And in the wake of the Second
33:08
Crusade, they're very powerful. They're among
33:10
the leading powers in the Middle East, with their
33:14
major territories clustered along the eastern
33:16
Mediterranean shoreline. Now, where Saladin comes
33:19
into this story, he really begins to emerge in
33:23
the 1160s. And it happens like this. that in
33:28
Egypt at this time, I've mentioned Egypt is under
33:32
the control of the Fatimid Empire, Egypt begins
33:36
to break down into civil war until you've got
33:39
various different factions within the Fatimid
33:42
Empire all struggling for authority. And for
33:47
any culture, if they're engaged in a civil war,
33:50
that's a dangerous time. But they make the critical
33:54
mistake. of any power engaged in a civil war,
33:58
which is they reach out for assistance to neighboring
34:01
powers. And that's dangerous because you're basically
34:05
signaling that you aren't strong enough to survive
34:08
by yourself. And as soon as you... Didn't Byzantium
34:12
do that with the Crusaders? That comes a little
34:14
bit later, but it's the same principle. Once
34:17
you start involving troops in your own internal
34:21
wars from other powers... then you're in a difficult
34:25
situation. Right. Sorry, let's go back to Egypt.
34:29
Sure. So in the wake of the First Crusade, three
34:33
territories are created by the Crusaders called
34:36
the Kingdom of Jerusalem, County of Edessa, Principality
34:39
of Antioch, and a fourth one is established a
34:42
few years later. And these territories expand
34:45
after the First Crusade until they reach a high
34:48
point in the 1130s. And then for many years after
34:53
that, the Crusader States are leading powers
34:56
in the Middle East. You're right, the Second
34:59
Crusade arrives when one of the smaller of these
35:02
powers, called the County of Edessa, collapses.
35:05
But the Second Crusade doesn't change the fortunes
35:08
of the larger Crusader States. But the real change
35:13
occurs in the 1160s. Because what you have at
35:17
this time is the beginnings of a civil war. within
35:21
the Fatimid Empire in Egypt and different internal
35:25
factions fighting amongst each other. And they
35:29
make the critical mistake that many powers engaged
35:32
in a civil war do make, which is to reach out
35:36
for external military intervention. Now, that's
35:39
a problem because once you start asking neighboring
35:42
powers to intervene in your civil war, they may
35:46
be more enthusiastic about intervening. than
35:49
going home at the end of that intervention. And
35:52
this is the beginnings of what becomes a three
35:55
-sided war. The Fatimid Empire is what's at stake.
36:00
Who's going to rule Egypt? And you have different
36:03
internal factions in that war. But some of those
36:06
factions reach out to the crusader states for
36:10
assistance. And some of those factions reach
36:13
out to the major Turkish ruler of this era called
36:17
Nur al -Din. And both the Crusader states and
36:21
Nur al -Din send big armies into Egypt in order
36:25
to participate in the civil war. And they're
36:28
all trying to get control over Egypt. Now, Nur
36:34
al -Din sends his armies into Egypt under the
36:37
command of a Kurdish warrior called Shurka. And
36:42
Shurka brings his nephew along. And Shurka's
36:45
nephew is Saladin. So Shurka embroils himself
36:50
in these wars for Egypt. His early invasions
36:54
go very badly. But then in 1168, he and his forces
37:00
managed to secure Cairo and then secure control
37:04
over the Nile Delta for themselves, therefore
37:07
conquering the Fatimid Empire and blocking the
37:12
ambitions of the Crusader states. And these are
37:15
the origins of Saladin's rise to power, because
37:19
Shurka dies pretty soon after the cup -taking
37:22
authority over Egypt, and Saladin replaces him.
37:26
And for years, Saladin continues to voice loyalty
37:31
to his overlord, Nur al -Din, the Turkish ruler
37:35
of Syria. But Nur al -Din continually worries
37:38
that Saladin's going to turn against him, until
37:41
when Nur al -Din dies in 1174. Saladin crosses
37:46
with a small army out of Egypt, takes Damascus,
37:49
and then pushes north into Syria, looking to
37:53
displace all Nur al -Din's heirs and take power
37:56
for himself. So these are the events in which
38:00
we see the rise of Saladin and his empire. And
38:04
how does he turn his sights on the Christian
38:07
states then, specifically on Jerusalem? From
38:11
a very early stage, Saladin sets himself up as
38:15
the commander who is going to retake Jerusalem.
38:18
That's a sort of core element to the way he presents
38:22
himself as a ruler and what he wants to achieve.
38:25
But it goes tremendously badly to begin with.
38:27
He suffers a lot of defeats in the early years.
38:31
There's the occasional victory, but he's really
38:34
struggling to make much progress against the
38:37
crusader states. And the explanation he gives,
38:39
at least, is that the reason he spends a lot
38:41
of his time conquering Muslim powers rather than
38:44
Christian ones is because he wants to build up
38:47
an empire big enough so that its unified power
38:51
can then be used and channeled against the largest
38:54
of the crusader states, which is the kingdom
38:56
of Jerusalem. Is he channeling any sort of theological
39:00
arguments at this stage? I mean, why does he
39:04
want to capture Jerusalem? Because during the
39:07
first podcast... that we did together, you did
39:11
mention that Jerusalem was pretty worthless,
39:14
that it wasn't rich, it didn't have any mining
39:18
going on, it didn't have a lot of food production.
39:21
It was this kind of like backwater almost, not
39:24
a great trading port or anything. All it had
39:29
was its religious significance. So why is Saladin
39:34
announcing, I want to conquer Jerusalem? Not
39:37
rich, not powerful city, if not for theological
39:41
reasons. Yeah. As you say, it's got no agriculture,
39:45
not much anyway. No real mines on the edge of
39:48
the desert. It's not a port. Now, look, I'm not
39:52
much of a fan, I'm afraid, of the film Kingdom
39:56
of Heaven. We talked about this in the first
40:00
episode. Yeah, you weren't giving it five stars,
40:05
I'm afraid. I'm afraid not. But there's one bit
40:07
I really like. Orlando Bloom was really bad.
40:10
Let's face it. There's one bit I really like.
40:12
And that is when Orlando Bloom's character says
40:18
to Saladin, what's Jerusalem worth? Nothing.
40:22
Nothing. It's not. A small desert city. It's
40:26
not important. And then, of course, the counterbalance
40:30
is everything. And I think that captures it really
40:34
nicely because, no, from an economic perspective,
40:37
Jerusalem is not valuable. In religious terms,
40:41
it's essential. It's a rallying cry. The idea
40:44
of getting Jerusalem back is a rallying cry.
40:48
And, of course, Jerusalem is continually... the
40:54
subject of campaign after campaign waged by multiple
40:57
empires and societies throughout this period,
41:00
because control over Jerusalem is just that theologically
41:04
important from a religious perspective. And just
41:08
to give you an example of this, just to go back
41:10
a little while, I mentioned earlier on in our
41:13
conversation that the Fatimid Empire in Egypt
41:15
tried very hard to conduct diplomacy with the
41:21
Crusaders, and the Crusaders tried hard to conduct
41:24
diplomacy with them. And the Crusaders' best
41:27
offer to the Fatimids was that they would help
41:30
the Fatimids retake every city they'd ever lost
41:34
to the Turks, if in return they could hold Jerusalem.
41:38
And the Fatimids' best offer to the Crusaders
41:40
was that they couldn't have Jerusalem, but they
41:44
could visit the city and visit the pilgrim sites
41:46
and then go home. So even back then, it's Jerusalem
41:50
that's the sticking point. That's what everyone
41:53
wants, despite the fact that economically it's
41:57
marginal. I can see why these two offers didn't
42:01
work out. Staying with the movie, though. Okay.
42:06
Just for a second. Just for a second. Please
42:08
humor me. Please humor me. It is implied there
42:11
that Saladin is under enormous pressure from
42:14
the Muslim lords in his camp to take the city
42:17
at all costs, even though he feels kind of...
42:20
meh about it, really. I think he says, I'll have
42:22
no peace if I don't do this. Is there any semblance
42:25
of truth to this? Do you think he was interested
42:30
in actual power, but he had to present it in
42:34
these sort of religious terms because otherwise
42:36
he would never catch a break? Or was he an honestly
42:40
religious man who felt compelled to take Jerusalem
42:44
on his own terms? Yeah, so there is... there's
42:48
practically a library of books dealing with the
42:51
question of what was actually motivating Saladin.
42:55
Because we could say this is someone who always
42:59
said he wanted to take back Jerusalem, always
43:02
said that, and he did indeed do that. And there's
43:07
lots of accounts that describe his piety as a
43:10
ruler and his devotion. And then there are other
43:14
historians who say that before he retook Jerusalem,
43:18
He spent about three quarters of his time fighting
43:20
Muslims, not fighting Christians, who are unconvinced
43:24
that his protestations of devotion are anything
43:29
more than just a sort of a propaganda image.
43:32
Now, which of those is true? Is Saladin genuinely
43:36
devout, or is he using religion to his own purposes?
43:40
This is something that historians have been debating
43:43
for a very, very long time, but it is true. that
43:48
Saladin's under a huge amount of pressure because
43:52
Saladin invaded the kingdom of Jerusalem in 1177
43:56
and suffered a massive defeat. He invaded again
44:01
in 1179 and won a minor victory. He invaded again
44:06
in 1182, another defeat. 1183, another defeat.
44:11
1184, another defeat. Damn. How did he recover
44:16
from all this? This is it. And he's been promising
44:19
consistently that he is going to be the one,
44:24
actually not 1184, but sorry, he's going to be
44:27
the one who is going to defeat the Crusaders.
44:30
But he's not been winning very much. So there
44:34
are a lot of people saying, well, why are we
44:36
supporting you? Why should we believe you when
44:39
you say you're going to defeat the kingdom of
44:41
Jerusalem when you keep losing? And you spend
44:45
most of your time conquering territory from Muslim
44:47
powers. So Saladin has to deliver. He doesn't
44:52
get a choice in this. And by the time that we
44:55
get to 1187, which is his big battlefield victory,
45:00
called the Battle of Hattin, that really is in
45:03
many ways the last roll of the dice for him.
45:06
He's either going to win that battle or... face
45:09
his internal critics who are rapidly running
45:11
out of patience with um his claims that he will
45:15
he will ever get to jerusalem so he's under a
45:18
lot of pressure he manages to pull to pull it
45:21
off at the last minute though right the battle
45:22
of hatin he does also feature it in our favorite
45:24
movie by the way since i cannot imagine it so
45:31
in western europe you have the pope and the pope
45:35
can just say, you should go on a crusade. And
45:39
the Catholics have to respect that, have to obey
45:43
that if they're good Catholics. I mean, there's
45:45
a unified, how should I put it? There's a unified
45:49
structure of Catholicism with the Pope on the
45:52
top in Europe. However, in the Muslim world,
45:55
there is no Pope. So how does religious authority
45:57
work if you have all of these different powers?
46:00
You have the Nizadis, you have the Seljuk Turks
46:03
that just converted. Like you said, they have
46:06
no inherited traditions of Islam. You have the
46:09
Fatimids. I'm sure you have other smaller communities.
46:12
So how does it work? Who's the authority there?
46:17
A religious authority? Sure. And you're right.
46:20
So the Pope in Western Europe can call for a
46:22
crusade. And to be fair, people aren't obliged
46:25
to go on crusades. It's a voluntary. You don't
46:28
have to do it. But a lot do. And the Pope can
46:32
just call for these campaigns to happen. In the
46:36
Muslim world, it's rather different. I mean,
46:37
you have large, powerful authorities like the
46:40
Fatimid Caliphate that can raise large armies
46:43
itself. So that would be a center of authority
46:46
for Shia Islam. Although, of course, there are
46:49
various other Shia groups that don't necessarily
46:52
acknowledge the authority of the Fatimid Caliph,
46:55
particularly in later decades like the Nizaris.
46:58
So is Caliph, excuse me for interrupting, is
47:01
Caliph comparable to a bishop then? Or an archbishop.
47:05
The Fatimid Caliph has overall religious and
47:09
secular authority. So full religious authority,
47:12
but also authority in the Fatimid Caliph's case,
47:16
theoretically over the entirety of the Fatimid
47:20
empire. Secular and religious power in one person.
47:23
Yeah. In practice, it doesn't work like that
47:25
because it's actually the Fatimid vizier who
47:27
carries out most of these functions. Now, in
47:31
the Sunni Muslim world, Previously, it used to
47:35
be the Abbasid Caliph who had, again, religious
47:39
and secular authority. And for a long time under
47:44
the Abbasid Caliphate in the 8th, 9th, 10th centuries,
47:49
that was the case. But the Seljuk Turks invaded
47:52
the Middle East and conquered the greater part
47:56
of the area, which creates a bit of an ambiguity.
48:00
around the extent of the Abbasid Caliph's authority.
48:03
Now, the Seljuks do, to some extent, acknowledge
48:06
the Abbasid Caliph's authority, but his secular
48:12
power is much reduced because his former empire
48:15
is now ruled by the Seljuk Sultan. And it's only
48:19
really once the Seljuk Sultanate begins to fall
48:22
apart, as it does in the 12th century, that the
48:25
Abbasid caliph begins to try expanding his secular
48:29
authority, although, of course, his spiritual
48:31
authority is still considerable. But this authority
48:36
is fragmented still, right? Secular authority,
48:38
yes. And religious authority, less so. Less so.
48:43
His status as the supreme head of Sunni Islam
48:48
is still there, yes. All right. And then what
48:51
power does the Sultan have, which is what Saladin
48:54
became? So that's exclusively secular military
48:57
power then? There's always a bit of a crossover.
49:01
I see. They're not making it easy for us. I'm
49:05
sorry, I'm not, but the boundaries here are a
49:07
little bit unclear from the sources too. But
49:10
yeah, so Saladin set himself up as Sultan of
49:13
Egypt and then expanded his authority. Sultan
49:16
has religious connotations, but it is predominantly...
49:20
his sort of secular authority, yes. All right,
49:22
back to Saladin and his victory at Hattin. Is
49:27
that when he manages to tear the city from crusaders'
49:31
hands, or is that the battle before he actually
49:33
besieges Jerusalem and takes it? Yeah, so Saladin
49:38
defeats the kingdom of Jerusalem's main field
49:40
army within a Bronze Age fort, in fact, just
49:45
above Lake Tiberias. So it's quite a way from
49:48
Jerusalem. But once he's overthrown the field
49:51
army of the kingdom of Jerusalem, he then invades
49:54
the kingdom in its entirety. He focuses to begin
49:58
with on the ports, places like Acre and Beirut
50:03
and Jaffa and places like that, because he knows
50:07
he has to control those ports as much as possible
50:10
so that he can prevent incoming crusaders from
50:14
reinforcing. what's left of the kingdom of jerusalem
50:17
and that's only that's not really very successful
50:19
but once he's conquered many of the ports then
50:22
he moves back inland again and focuses on jerusalem
50:26
which he then besieges and ultimately conquers
50:30
um does that reinforce his authority in the muslim
50:36
world yes very much because he finally did what
50:39
he set out to do and promised to do from the
50:43
get -go Yeah, so absolutely. So he sends messengers
50:46
to the caliph in Baghdad, informing him of his
50:50
victory. His own authority is considerably strengthened,
50:54
as you say. He's made good on his promise. And
50:58
the various Islamic holy sites in Jerusalem are
51:02
restored and placed back under Islamic authority.
51:05
So this is an enormous achievement for him. The
51:09
catch, as it were, the problem is that within
51:12
a couple of years, the massive armies of the
51:15
Third Crusade arrive under leaders like Philip
51:19
II of France, Frederick I of Germany and Richard
51:22
I of England, which then creates an entirely
51:26
new chapter in the history of the Crusades. These
51:29
guys are relentless. They have kingdoms and they
51:31
still have time to go on a crazy adventure like
51:35
this. It's difficult. I mean, when a crusading
51:38
ruler goes on campaign, the clock's ticking from
51:42
the moment he leaves because there's only a limit
51:45
to how long you can leave your kingdom without
51:47
being there yourself. So when, for example, Richard
51:50
I of England left England, went on crusade. There's
51:54
constantly people asking for him to come back
51:57
because he knows there's problems in his kingdom.
51:59
So he's got to balance up in his own mind his
52:02
commitment to the crusade and his commitment
52:04
to his kingdom. Right. Robin Hood almost took
52:07
over while he was gone, right? The legend says
52:10
he saved him, but yes. My bad. But Saladin manages
52:18
to keep Jerusalem. The Muslim powers keep Jerusalem.
52:23
From that point onwards, right? These crusades
52:26
from the Third Crusade onwards are not successful
52:28
from wresting control from him and his successors.
52:32
Sure. For a long time, they're not. The Third
52:35
Crusade, it's said that Richard got to a hilltop
52:39
from which he could see Jerusalem. That's what
52:42
the legend says. But he didn't get any closer.
52:45
So the Third Crusade doesn't take Jerusalem.
52:49
The Fourth Crusade was supposed to take Jerusalem
52:51
and ended going wildly off course and going and
52:55
sacking Constantinople instead. But that's a
52:58
different story. The Fifth Crusade failed to
53:01
take Jerusalem. But then in 1228, a small crusade
53:07
led by Emperor Frederick II of Germany arrived
53:11
and in 29 managed to negotiate the return via
53:16
treaty of Jerusalem. And it was then held by
53:20
the Kingdom of Jerusalem for 15 years until its
53:24
overthrow in 1244. There's a very brief window
53:28
in which Jerusalem was restored to the Kingdom
53:31
of Jerusalem in the 13th century. From who? Who
53:35
did they lease it from or take it from? So it
53:38
was returned by treaty. At the time, it was ruled
53:40
by one of Saladin's heirs. So Saladin's family
53:43
is called the Ayyubid dynasty. And by that point
53:46
in the 1220s, the Middle East, the empire Saladin
53:51
created, is torn apart by civil war between Saladin's
53:56
various heirs. And when this new crusade arrives,
53:59
basically they pay the crusade off because they're
54:02
so locked in their own rivalries. So they pay
54:05
the crusade off by giving the crusade commander,
54:09
Frederick of Germany, Jerusalem, in exchange
54:12
for the crusaders leaving them to their own.
54:15
quarrels really and then 15 years later another
54:19
major invasion from the east called the from
54:22
a people called the quorasmians they then attack
54:26
and conduct a very brutal sack of jerusalem uh
54:32
once saladin takes jerusalem some sort of a very
54:36
supposedly generous deal that he that he makes
54:39
in return for um for jerusalem to be handed over
54:42
to him Was that real that he let all Christians
54:46
who wanted to leave leave? Or was it a bit more
54:50
complicated than that? Because famously, we talked
54:53
about it during the first episode on the Crusades.
54:56
When the first Crusade took Jerusalem, they weren't
55:00
very gentle with it, were they? They were basically
55:02
massacring everybody they could get their hands
55:05
on. And they admitted it themselves in their
55:08
sources. They said that they're wallowing in
55:10
blood up to their knees or something. How did
55:12
that look like when... when Saladin took it over
55:14
and what happened to Christians inside the city
55:17
defending it? Okay, so Saladin besieged Jerusalem
55:20
and the original plan seems to have been simply
55:23
to conquer the city in a conventional sense.
55:25
But the defenders put up enough resistance to
55:29
force Saladin to the negotiating table and the
55:32
deal that was arranged between Saladin and Jerusalem's
55:35
defenders. was that the Christian population
55:39
in Jerusalem could walk away from Jerusalem without
55:43
any sort of interference, but they had to pay
55:48
a fee. And so men, women, and children paid at
55:52
a different rate. And provided you could afford
55:55
to pay for essentially your ransom, you could
55:59
walk away from Jerusalem and go to what's left
56:02
of the kingdom of Jerusalem. And we have examples
56:05
of some women. particularly women who had lost
56:09
their husbands in battle against Saladin's forces,
56:12
saying, could their husbands be spared? And Saladin
56:16
could be very gracious about those sorts of requests.
56:19
And we hear about him sending word back to Damascus
56:22
and releasing knights if they were indeed imprisoned
56:26
by Saladin's forces. The problem, though, was
56:30
for the elements of Jerusalem's populace that
56:33
was too poor. to afford that payment afford that
56:36
payment and they were treated very differently
56:38
so it depends who you were really in terms of
56:42
who got treated like that but you're absolutely
56:44
right when the first crusade took jerusalem it
56:47
was very brutal when you're writing this book
56:50
like you said at the beginning you have various
56:52
different characters different perspectives um
56:55
who became your favorite and and why or maybe
56:58
who surprised you the most which characters arc
57:03
Oh, there's some really good characters here.
57:05
I have to say one of my favorite characters is
57:09
he's an Arab aristocrat from the Syrian town
57:14
of called Shai Zah. And he has the most remarkable
57:18
career that basically extends for the duration
57:21
of the book. And he wrote all the various experience
57:26
of his life down. as a sort of series of short
57:30
stories. And some of them are truly remarkable.
57:33
And his name is Uzama ibn Munkid. And to pick
57:38
one of those stories, he talked about an occasion
57:41
when one of the armies from the Principality
57:44
of Antioch, a crusader state, attacked his hometown
57:47
of Shiza. And the crusading army attacked and
57:52
there was fighting. It's very much the kind of
57:54
story that people expect to be told about the
57:57
Crusades. Christian army, Muslim army, they're
58:00
fighting each other. And the battle goes very
58:03
badly for the Crusaders, who then have to stage
58:07
a nighttime retreat. So Osama Ibn Munkid's family
58:12
and their forces set out in pursuit of this retreating
58:16
Frankish Crusader army. And a single Crusader
58:20
knight steps out from the ranks of the withdrawing
58:23
Frankish knights and single -handedly holds off.
58:28
the forces of Uzama's family to allow the escape
58:33
of the Christian army. Now, that story so far
58:36
is not so far from what people would expect.
58:39
What they don't expect is what comes next. And
58:43
that is that a few days later, that knight who
58:47
had enabled the escape of his army arrived voluntarily.
58:52
at the town of Shizar, knocked on the gates and
58:56
said, hi there, I'm the knight you were fighting
58:58
a few days ago. I really admired the way that
59:01
you and your forces behaved in battle. Could
59:05
we train together for a few days? And so Uzama's
59:09
family said, well, yes, of course. So they offered
59:11
him their hospitality. He fought with them for
59:15
a while. And then after his visit, he went home
59:18
again. Now that second part. of the story is
59:22
not what you'd expect. And it goes to show that
59:25
the period we're talking about, it's a lot more
59:27
complicated than people think. There's a lot
59:29
more going on than just simply a Christian versus
59:32
Muslim war. It's much more complex, more multifaceted
59:38
than that. And I like Uzama's stories because
59:42
they capture the complexities of that era. So
59:47
he would definitely be one of my favorite characters.
59:51
It sounded like an open mixed martial arts gym
59:54
a little bit. Come train with us. You can go
59:56
back to your squad. What happened to him in the
59:59
end? Did he make it? Or was he killed in one
1:00:02
of the... He did. He had a very complicated career.
1:00:06
He was born and raised in Scheherazade. He fought
1:00:09
under Turkish leaders in Damascus. He fought
1:00:13
under the Fatimids in Egypt. Went back and served...
1:00:18
other Turkish leaders in Damascus, and later
1:00:21
on he retired in Saladin's territory. So he saw
1:00:25
everything. He'd seen so much from this period.
1:00:29
I mean, some of his choices and actions were
1:00:32
a bit sort of brutal or gruesome, but he played
1:00:35
a major role. And he has the distinction of living
1:00:39
to his 90s, which most people don't at this time,
1:00:43
and he died of old age. Which, again, it's not
1:00:47
that common for the sort of the fighting aristocrats
1:00:50
of the Middle East at this time. Should be a
1:00:52
Netflix series. It'd make a very good movie.
1:00:55
Any Netflix, if you hear this, do absolutely.
1:00:59
Drop me an email. As you explained to me before,
1:01:03
the Crusades weren't a clash of civilizations,
1:01:05
as it's often portrayed. Muslims versus Christians
1:01:08
fighting tooth and nail. Your story just illustrated
1:01:11
that. They weren't just like trying to annihilate
1:01:13
each other at all costs. It was an intricate
1:01:15
web of temporary alliances, interests, opportunity,
1:01:18
which meant sometimes these guys worked together
1:01:20
against a common enemy and it was all much more
1:01:22
nuanced and complex, etc. And then the Mongols
1:01:24
show up. So for that, listen to our Mongols episodes.
1:01:28
But as far as kind of historic memory goes, is
1:01:32
there a difference about how these events are
1:01:34
remembered in the West as opposed to how they're
1:01:36
remembered in the countries in the Middle East?
1:01:40
Do you reckon? Yeah, I think there is. And you're
1:01:42
right. There is undeniably an underlying conflict
1:01:47
between the advocates of different religions
1:01:50
trying to gain control over the Middle East.
1:01:53
But there's a lot of other things going on as
1:01:55
well and other agendas that have little or nothing
1:01:57
to do with religion that's also shaping events.
1:02:00
And that makes things complicated. But you're
1:02:03
right. The way it's remembered is fascinating.
1:02:07
In Western Europe, the Crusades are normally
1:02:09
remembered as being a Christian versus Muslim
1:02:12
war, although even there, there are some interesting
1:02:15
dimensions because Saladin is often remembered
1:02:19
as a hero, which doesn't fit within that sort
1:02:22
of Christian versus Muslim paradigm. Even in
1:02:25
the medieval period, even during his lifetime,
1:02:27
Saladin is described very positively. Why is
1:02:32
that? You would have thought that the propaganda
1:02:35
would go hard. against him since he recaptured
1:02:39
Jerusalem and since they couldn't take it away
1:02:42
from him. You'd have thought so, but it's not
1:02:43
the case. I mean, there are some writers who
1:02:46
are very hostile, but there's lots of others
1:02:48
who are much more positive. And just to give
1:02:51
you a story from sort of 50 or so years later
1:02:54
during another crusade into Egypt. This is the
1:02:58
crusade, a French crusade into Egypt. The crusade
1:03:01
collapsed. And Egyptian forces began rounding
1:03:05
up and taking prisoner all the crusaders. And
1:03:09
one of the crusaders called John of Schwanville
1:03:11
saw that the crusaders were being mistreated
1:03:14
or even killed by the Egyptian forces and said
1:03:17
to the Egyptian commander, what are you doing?
1:03:21
Sultan Saladin would never have behaved that
1:03:23
way. And the commander just said, well, I have
1:03:27
no use for these soldiers. Many of them are ill.
1:03:29
But it shows an expectation on the part of a
1:03:32
crusading leader that actually he is expecting
1:03:36
a higher standard of behavior from Muslim commanders
1:03:39
because he has been born and raised on stories
1:03:43
of Saladin. So it is a complex picture, but it's
1:03:47
also undeniable that in so many of the cultures.
1:03:51
involved in the crusades or who remember the
1:03:54
crusades into the modern day but they are generally
1:03:57
remembered very simply as being christian versus
1:04:00
muslim wars absolutely professor morton always
1:04:03
a pleasure i do wanna i didn't finish the book
1:04:06
yet um i'm reading it and it's unputdownable
1:04:10
there it is i can't wait to read oh there it
1:04:13
is yes uh the cover is fantastic as i told you
1:04:16
before before we started recording I can't wait
1:04:19
to read about the Crusader Princess. That just
1:04:24
sounds so badass. Yeah, she's a good character.
1:04:26
Yeah. Okay. On this cliffhanger, we're going
1:04:31
to end the episode. Please get the book June
1:04:34
4th, I believe. That's right. Find bookstores
1:04:37
everywhere. UK June 4th. In the US, it'll be
1:04:40
November. I'm not sure when this episode is going
1:04:43
to be aired, but definitely after June 4th. So
1:04:45
the book should be available in the UK and I
1:04:48
guess in Europe then as well. Most of my listeners
1:04:51
are from continental Europe. Well, I'm sure Amazon
1:04:54
will be happy to supply you with a copy. All
1:04:57
right. Amazing. Thanks again, Professor Morton.
1:05:00
I hope you are already writing a new book. Then
1:05:02
it's going to be finished next month so we can
1:05:04
have another conversation. That'd be wonderful.
1:05:06
Thank you. Are you working on something else?
1:05:08
Yeah, so I'm about to start a project which is
1:05:13
going to last for three years. And what I'm doing
1:05:15
is saying that we spend all our time studying
1:05:19
the Middle East in the medieval period from the
1:05:21
perspective of sultans, kings, emirs, dukes,
1:05:27
empresses, but the ruling classes, what we don't
1:05:32
hear so much about is everyone else. So what
1:05:35
I'm looking at is I'm looking at what could be
1:05:37
called the professional classes, doctors, carpenters,
1:05:42
falconers, people who provide high quality, highly
1:05:46
skilled services. And what I suspect I'm going
1:05:51
to find, my hypothesis is that these professionals
1:05:55
move very, very easily between Crusader, Muslim
1:06:00
and Eastern Christian territory. conducting their
1:06:03
services with virtually no real blockage and
1:06:05
no real problems about crossing cultural frontiers
1:06:09
so it's looking at the history of the crusading
1:06:12
era but further down the social spectrum interesting
1:06:17
is there going to be a book about that or is
1:06:19
that just a research project in the fullness
1:06:21
of time there'll be a book yeah Lovely. That's
1:06:24
actually the general direction of this podcast.
1:06:27
Lately, I've talked about a lot of historians.
1:06:30
Lyndall Roper about the Peasants' Rebellion,
1:06:32
the Great German Peasants' War. And we talked
1:06:35
about the peasants. And then I talked to Emma
1:06:37
Southern, Roman historian, who just released
1:06:41
a book about slaves in the Roman Empire. And
1:06:46
also Katja Hoyer about the lives of ordinary
1:06:49
Germans in Weimar. when the Nazis took it over.
1:06:52
It is to my liking, the direction that you're
1:06:56
taking. So hopefully we'll meet again. Absolutely.
1:06:59
I look forward to it. Thank you so much for listening.
1:07:00
Please subscribe on YouTube, follow and rate
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so eternal gratitude goes too do me hold this
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Manciano, Micha, Medved, Medinho, Goran, Gordon,
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Lorenzo, Juricuk, Mila, Carme, Veronica and Tai
1:08:19
Chi. Thanks Emil.