Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: Lindsay Clancy: Monster or Mentally Ill. Can She Be Both?

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Killer Thriller: Lindsay Clancy: Monster or Mentally Ill. Can She Be Both? · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everyone. I'm Elisa Donovan, host of Killer Thriller,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: and I'm joined by my Killer Thriller docu-co-host, Jennifer Fessler.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, my girl.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Good morning.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Good morning.
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  Speaker 1: So today, we are diving into the Lindsay Clancy case,
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  Speaker 1: as is everyone else. This horrifying and tragic case of
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: a mother on trial for killing her three young children
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  Speaker 1: ages five three and eight months now this is a
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  Speaker 1: case that's become it's just impossible to look away from
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  Speaker 1: in part because there are such profoundly difficult questions at
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  Speaker 1: its center was lindsey suffering from a severe mental illness
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  Speaker 1: that left her unable to understand the wrongfulness of what
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  Speaker 1: she was doing Or was she mentally ill but still
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  Speaker 1: criminally responsible for her actions? And her case has captivated
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  Speaker 1: people far beyond Massachusetts, and it's ignited a much larger
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  Speaker 1: conversation about postpartum psychosis, criminal responsibility, and whether mothers in
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  Speaker 1: crisis are getting the help that they need before it's
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  Speaker 1: too late.
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  Speaker 2: So....
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  Speaker 1: You know, there are very few cases where the facts
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  Speaker 1: of what happened aren't really the question.
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  Speaker 2: That is true.
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  Speaker 3: But I know that there are so many people who
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  Speaker 3: are doubting the facts in terms of, you know, whether
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  Speaker 3: or not Lindsay actually did it, whether it was Patrick.
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  Speaker 2: I do not subscribe to that.
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  Speaker 1: No, neither do I.
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  Speaker 2: Not for one minute. But so there is no disputing.
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  Speaker 2: those facts.
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  Speaker 3: Um, yeah, this is a really difficult, uh, for me,
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  Speaker 3: it's a difficult case because I am back and forth
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  Speaker 3: in terms of how I feel about it. I, I
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  Speaker 3: feel like Elisa, you, you're pretty sure of how you feel.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I think clearly based on the fact that the,
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  Speaker 1: the jury is deadlocked and they went to the judge
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  Speaker 1: and said, we are deadlocked. We cannot make a decision.
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  Speaker 1: And then he sent them back to deliberate further. And
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  Speaker 1: it's my understanding they're only allowed to do that twice.
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  Speaker 1: So they are deliberating again. We are recording this the
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: day before this will go up. So they are back deliberating.
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  Speaker 1: But I think that most people, certainly the jury, feel
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  Speaker 1: as you do that it's a somewhat impossible thing to
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  Speaker 1: really decide and commit to because it covers so many
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  Speaker 1: things that You know, certainly postpartum depression and women's health
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  Speaker 1: care and all of those things are at the forefront.
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  Speaker 1: But then it's also just... It's just impossible to sort of.
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  Speaker 2: I feel.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, yes. My feeling is this woman does not belong
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  Speaker 1: in a jail cell with just basic hardcore criminals. She
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  Speaker 1: simply does not. She belongs in... someplace where she will
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  Speaker 1: get very, very lengthy care, but she doesn't belong in
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  Speaker 1: a jail.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, I, I tend to agree with you. Um,
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  Speaker 3: I have talked to, as you have so many people
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  Speaker 3: that feel completely differently and I'm not sure if what
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  Speaker 3: I'm feeling and thinking is the right thing. And I have, um,
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  Speaker 3: I did a live Instagram last night with someone who
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  Speaker 3: is so adamant that she knew what she was doing
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  Speaker 3: and she should go to jail for the rest of
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  Speaker 3: her life.
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  Speaker 2: She's a monster. And I heard her, I tried to
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  Speaker 2: at least, right. And I really did hear her points.
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  Speaker 1: So she was saying that what, that, that this is
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  Speaker 1: like a terrible person who wanted to murder her children.
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  Speaker 3: In her mind, yes, that she was a terrible person
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  Speaker 3: and that it was deliberate. And I don't know that
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  Speaker 3: she thinks it had nothing to do with postpartum psychosis
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  Speaker 3: or depression. One of her many points, and we've spoken
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  Speaker 3: about this, is that a lot of perpetrators of violent
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  Speaker 3: crimes are mentally ill. And where is that line drawn, right?
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  Speaker 3: I think you and I had spoken offline about, I
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  Speaker 3: sent you a text about this woman, Constance Fisher, who
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  Speaker 3: killed her three kids in 1954 and spent several years
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  Speaker 3: in a mental institution and was released to kill, had
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  Speaker 3: three more kids and killed them in 1966. And she
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  Speaker 3: went to the mental institution. She actually drowned her kids,
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  Speaker 3: suffered from anxiety and depression and was abnormally worried about
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  Speaker 3: her kids all the time.
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  Speaker 2: She attempted suicide.
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  Speaker 3: And so got out and did it again. I'm not,
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  Speaker 3: this is just what I've been reading about.
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  Speaker 1: But that all of those things have very, very clear
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  Speaker 1: parallels to elements of Lindsay Clancy's case. And in the
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  Speaker 1: fifties in particular, no one was talking about this. Nobody
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  Speaker 1: was giving five minutes to to women's feelings about any
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  Speaker 1: of these things. It was, it was utterly disregarded. So
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  Speaker 1: she had no help.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: But she was in an asylum and she got out
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  Speaker 3: and did it again. That was sort of more the,
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  Speaker 3: the point. And I'm not at all saying that Lindsay
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  Speaker 3: is going to ever do this again. I have watched
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  Speaker 3: her as you have during this trial. And to me,
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  Speaker 3: she seems as distraught as someone. Yes. Right.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: But, um, There are those who say, why does she
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  Speaker 3: even care? Why does she want to get off? Why
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  Speaker 3: doesn't she want to go to the darkest corner of
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  Speaker 3: a penitentiary and die there? I don't know how to
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  Speaker 3: answer that question.
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  Speaker 1: I think she has said she wished that her attempt
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  Speaker 1: at taking her own life was successful.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: I think that there is no, like we said before,
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  Speaker 1: there's no happy ending for this woman.
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  Speaker 3: No, and I have said that, and you have said that,
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  Speaker 3: and I've heard that said time and time again, and
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  Speaker 3: I really do agree with that.
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  Speaker 2: There are those who would say, what do you mean?
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  Speaker 3: If she gets off and she continues to live her
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  Speaker 3: life and she has one happy day, even that's not fair, right?
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  Speaker 3: So I'm coming at this from the perspective, primarily I'm
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  Speaker 3: with you and with those who feel terrible that, that
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  Speaker 3: this has happened that obviously, but, but don't feel like
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  Speaker 3: she deserves to spend the rest of her life in jail.
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  Speaker 3: I'm also hearing things that I cannot deny. And when
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  Speaker 3: I do think as so many of us about the
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  Speaker 3: way in which she murdered her kids, something else.
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  Speaker 2: Takes over in me. Right.
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  Speaker 3: Like if I can actually, I know that I get,
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  Speaker 3: then the rage comes up and I am like, you
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  Speaker 3: know what?
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  Speaker 2: Who cares? Put her away. I don't, it doesn't.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And I know that that's, that lacks compassion, but there are,
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  Speaker 3: do we have compassion for so many murderers that are
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  Speaker 3: put away for the rest of their lives? People that
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  Speaker 3: are hurt people, hurt people. And, you know, people that
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: grow up being abused and tortured and assaulted. And so,
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  Speaker 3: and then they do the same thing. And where's the
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  Speaker 3: compassion there? I don't know the answers to these very
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  Speaker 3: deep questions.
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  Speaker 1: I think this is at the heart of it. How
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  Speaker 1: do we balance empathy and accountability? In particular, when we're
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: talking about it in the legal system. And I think
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  Speaker 1: these jurors, first of all, take it back to Reddington,
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  Speaker 1: who is continually amazing. Did you listen to his closing argument?
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  Speaker 3: I did.
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  Speaker 1: So good. And the service that these people are doing,
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  Speaker 1: and I really appreciate how he mentioned jurors take all
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  Speaker 1: of this home with them. They have seen these grisly photos,
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  Speaker 1: listened to horrific testimony, detailed things that he, again, I
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  Speaker 1: appreciate how he really has said much of that was
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  Speaker 1: gratuitous and unnecessary. Like the prosecution kept going back to
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  Speaker 1: all of these things.
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  Speaker 3: Pulling out the exercise bands just to show them all
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  Speaker 3: of that. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: The bow in her hair, in the prosecutor's hair.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: All of that.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: It's, it's, it's, disturbing to say the least but this
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  Speaker 1: is really like the heart of the question and i
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  Speaker 1: think these people are you know this is a a
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  Speaker 1: woman's life which is always the case of course when
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  Speaker 1: you're on a jury that is about murder.
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  Speaker 2: I would not want to be on this jury by
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  Speaker 2: the way no way.
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  Speaker 1: No and then they're saying if they are deadlocked again
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  Speaker 1: where it becomes a mistrial you know, there's concern about
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  Speaker 1: there are people that are going to maybe really want
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  Speaker 1: to be on this jury, you know, and try like,
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  Speaker 1: it just, it starts to get so muddy.
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  Speaker 3: I will tell you that like, like two of my
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  Speaker 3: friends who feel that she should just be put away
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  Speaker 3: and they both said, Oh, I would love to.
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  Speaker 2: Be on this jury.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, right.
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  Speaker 1: That's what I mean.
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  Speaker 3: Yes. And I can't think of anything I'd want to
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  Speaker 3: do less than have to determine the fate of this woman.
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  Speaker 3: I just, and I, you know, deadlocked is, is interesting.
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  Speaker 1: So, Yeah, does it mean that it could be one person, right?
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  Speaker 1: Because it has to be unanimous. So it could be
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  Speaker 1: one person who is has an opposing feeling right it
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  Speaker 1: doesn't have to be like half of them or something.
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  Speaker 3: And I yeah I wonder and I also wonder deadlocked
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  Speaker 3: are they do they all feel passionately about it like
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  Speaker 3: I wonder how um are there members of the jury
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  Speaker 3: who you know feel like she's guilty she should go
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  Speaker 3: away to a mental institution for life. And then there
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  Speaker 3: are some that say she should, she's not be acquitted.
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  Speaker 3: And then those that say she.
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  Speaker 1: I know. Cause there are so many options for them.
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  Speaker 1: It isn't just guilty or not guilty. There are four different,
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  Speaker 1: I think four or five choices that they have, which
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  Speaker 1: could be just, you know, mind boggling.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, did you know this?
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  Speaker 3: I thought this was interesting that the same doctor in
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  Speaker 3: the Andrea Yates case, was defended Lindsay Clancy.
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  Speaker 1: Oh no, I didn't know that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I just found that out. Yeah. I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: tell you.
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  Speaker 1: So did they both, did she treat both of them?
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  Speaker 2: No.
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  Speaker 1: Or she's just giving professional opinion.
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  Speaker 2: Professional opinion.
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  Speaker 3: And so Andrea was convicted and then retried and then released.
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  Speaker 2: Into an asylum. Right. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. I think.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Yes. And similar symptoms, similar outreach on her. Like she
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  Speaker 3: tried to Dr. Philip Resnick.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. So yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And she, and she tried and tried and tried to
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  Speaker 3: get help as well before she drowned her five children.
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  Speaker 3: And then, right. So she went to trial and there
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  Speaker 3: was some evidence that was presented.
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  Speaker 2: That wasn't true. That's how she got, the appeal and
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  Speaker 2: ended up in sanity.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I do have the question of why was
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  Speaker 1: Lindsay indicted in the first place when the family has,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: you know, seemingly forgiven her and stated that they don't
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  Speaker 1: want her in this.
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  Speaker 3: I think in a murder case and in other cases,
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  Speaker 3: I believe the state is the final decider in that. Right.
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  Speaker 1: It just seems so like sad. Okay, only had to
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  Speaker 1: find probable cause that she committed the murders.
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  Speaker 3: Should postpartum psychosis be treated differently by the criminal justice
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  Speaker 3: system than other forms of severe mental illness, I think
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  Speaker 3: is a lot of.
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  Speaker 1: What is at the heart of this.
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  Speaker 2: And I don't know the answer. I don't either.
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  Speaker 1: So when it's posed that way, I really do have
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  Speaker 1: conflicting feelings about it. But I just can't get past
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  Speaker 1: this thing. And I don't know, is it because I'm
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  Speaker 1: a woman? Is it because I'm a mother? You know,
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  Speaker 1: that I can imagine how horrible, like how you could
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  Speaker 1: ever get to that point. I don't. So I'm eternally
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: empathetic to that. I am forever. fiercely against this over-medication
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: of our society. And that is from personal experience. Again,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: this is, again, my personal opinion. They don't agree with
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: me whenever I've had surgery, having meds. It doesn't work.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: I do not believe in it. And I'm an Eastern
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: medicine person. An acupuncturist has been my primary doctor for
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: 30-something years. And I'm not saying I'm against traditional Western medicine.
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  Speaker 1: I certainly am not. But this over-medication and just doling
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: out pills, it's because the pharmaceutical companies run so much
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  Speaker 1: of this country. And there is so much invested in
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  Speaker 1: that that we have to go back to paying attention
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  Speaker 1: to actual care. healthcare, not just doling out medications. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: this woman was over medicated.
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  Speaker 2: Well, also where's the regulation there? There's who is in
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  Speaker 2: charge of it.
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  Speaker 3: I am a proponent of medication, not all medications all
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: the time, but I, there have been medications that I
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  Speaker 3: feel have saved my life. I struggled with anxiety and
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  Speaker 3: depression and I've been in therapy for years and years
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  Speaker 3: and years. And I am, um, I do feel as
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  Speaker 3: if my life is better because of medications.
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  Speaker 1: And I would guess that you had or have still
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: a great doctor and a great psychiatrist and a person
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  Speaker 1: who is actually caring for you.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm also not in the middle of psychosis. I'm
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  Speaker 2: not postpartum. My choices that I'm making, I think, are
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: more sane choices. in general, right? Because I'm not in
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  Speaker 2: the middle of those episodes.
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  Speaker 3: And yes, I have a great doctor and yes, my
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: medications are regulated and I can't just, I don't just
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: go to one, get something, decide myself it doesn't work.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: Let's say not titrate off of it, go get something else.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, there's, I don't, that's not what I do, thankfully,
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: but yes, I think medications are given out easily, I
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: think there needs to be more oversight, right?
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  Speaker 1: Like, yes.
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  Speaker 3: And I don't, again, I don't have solutions for this stuff.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: I just, I think that that's part of the problem.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: I think that is part of the problem. And that's what,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: you know, this whole thing is just prompted a groundswell
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: of outrage about the barriers that women face when seeking care. And,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: you know, this is, I was at my daughter's orthodontist
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: appointment yesterday and I was Texting with you all about
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: this on the way there. And then I get into
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: the office and I talk to the insurance financial person
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: in terms of what's covered and what isn't. And she
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  Speaker 1: starts talking about Lindsay Clancy. And she's speaking about it
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: as a woman. That was the first thing that we
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: talked about and how painful this is, etc., But then
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: she said, I'm also looking at it from the legal
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: medical insurance standpoint. And she said, I'm always saying to
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  Speaker 1: my people, when you write something in someone's file, you
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: have to think about this could come out in court
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: one day. Is what you are saying true? And is
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: it unbiased? And is it like all those things? So
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: the case is really, it covers so much.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh.
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  Speaker 2: Well, what about... Making these doctors liable.
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  Speaker 3: So for instance, and we've spoken of her before, Jennifer Tufts,
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  Speaker 3: who I think it was 14 times that she met
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: with Lindsay online.
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  Speaker 2: And Kevin Reddington was like, did you ever say to her,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: you should come in?
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: You should come in.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Did you ever say to her?
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: Because I know from my own personal experience, my doctor
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: wants me to come in every once in a while,
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: but all summer I haven't. It's just so much easier
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: to do therapy online.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: You know, then to drive.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: And sometimes we can't. Right.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 1: My therapist is in L.A. I live in San Francisco. Now,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: she has known me for over 30 years.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: And, you know, 20 of those of which were in person.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: Yes. Me too. Right.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: So, yes, this person did not know her. Did she
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: drop the ball? How much of this can be blamed
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: on some of these doctors? Right. And I can't imagine, again,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: that they're criminally liable. But did they fuck it up
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: by not saying to this woman who was so desperate?
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  Speaker 1: I don't understand. I think the doctor was, Jennifer Tufts,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: the one who prescribed medication. So whoever was prescribing this
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: multitude of medications that this woman was trying to managed
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: as evidenced by her journal entries, you know, that to
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: me seems insane. So her treating psychiatrist, she was her
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: treating psychiatrist for four months beginning in September of 2022.
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  Speaker 2: She was also brand new, right? Out of a residency.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: It's not like she had.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: A lot of experience with this interest in this.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: I think she, I think Kevin Reddington said on her,
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: on her website, it said she may be, maybe it
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: didn't say specialized in, but had a lot of interest
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: in women's health in postpartum.
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  Speaker 1: So, you know, geez, can you imagine, can you imagine
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  Speaker 1: being that being her where she's like, okay, I just
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: want to start with this and this is what happens.
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  Speaker 2: Can't worry about her. We have too much to worry about,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: but yes.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: She'd been practicing since August. So essentially a month.
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  Speaker 3: Right. Imagine having to live with that. Oh, and she
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: met with her a day before the killings. So met
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: with her a day before. And again, I'm not trying
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: to place blame on this doctor, but imagine having to
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: live with that.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Yes. How much did you really know about postpartum psychosis
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: before this?
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: Postpartum depression was certainly more Yes. That's the verbiage that
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: I use for this. Right. And I know that it's
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: serious and I know that women suffer with it and
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: women that I know have suffered with it.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know that much.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that much about psychosis.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: You know, I, I didn't, but I mean, I guess
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: it wasn't when I heard it, it wasn't, it wasn't
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: like I couldn't understand it.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's right.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: There was a, It just seems like the kind of
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: next phase of postpartum depression.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Right.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Because I think there isn't any one that, you know,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: people would say, I was so lucky that I didn't
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: have postpartum depression and I had a relatively easy birth
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: and all these things. That's what people would say about me,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: meaning that's what they witnessed. That is not how I felt. Really?
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: And I didn't have severe, thank goodness. I did not
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: have any severe, I did not have psychosis or any
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: of those things. But I had real extended periods where
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: I felt like, I don't know if I can do this.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I can. This is so hard.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: And I am weeping on my kitchen floor. And everybody's like,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Lisa's amazing. She just bounced right back. Oh, even her body.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: Look it.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: She just looks fine. And it's like, nobody knows what's
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: really going on. So I think maybe that's why I
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: also feel so empathetic for this woman. While I, again,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: was not even remotely close to where this woman got,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: I just can't. I can imagine it. And it's awful.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: Well, I didn't have postpartum per se, but I did,
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: as soon as I got pregnant with my son, I
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: did it differently with my daughter. I was on Prozac
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: and I stopped it.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: Boom. As soon as I found out I was on
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: it and I stopped.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: But you're really not supposed to, right? You're supposed to
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: titrate off of it. And I, because I just couldn't
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: imagine to me, I didn't, God forbid that it would
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: get into the baby's bloodstream or whatever else. And doctors
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: will tell you that's not the way it's supposed to go.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: And that's not the way it goes, but I did.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: I completely made my own decision to stop cold Turkey.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: And I was in a ball crying, scared, hysterical. I
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: remember I went once with my husband to Whole Foods
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: and I ate a piece of cheese, a sample or whatever.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: And we got in the car and I was like,
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: Oh my God, what if that wasn't What if it
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: wasn't pasteurized?
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: I called Whole Foods in a state.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: A panic.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: And I couldn't let it go. It just consumed me.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: I just wanted to be in.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: So interesting.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: I mean, in terms of medication and then stopping medication
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: or not wanting to go on.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like that spiral. Because Prozac is specifically for that, right?
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: I took that beginning my recovery of my eating disorder
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: because I couldn't get off the train of, you know.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: No, I know. And I still take it.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: But I'm saying these decisions that we make when we
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: are pregnant, post-pregnant, these are big decisions. And I just
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: remember feeling I had no choice, right? But to go
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: off quickly, cold turkey. And so that's when I felt
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: just that kind of crazy anxiety, uncontrollable anxiety. I did
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: not have postpartum, but I certainly had my moments of
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: fear and am I good enough?
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Is this good enough? Am I fucking it up? You know,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: all of that.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: Right. The thing is, this is a precedent setting case.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: And I think everybody kind of feels that, right? So
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: the outcome of this case is going to have implications
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: moving forward.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: It should.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: It should for women who are postpartum and you know,
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: with postpartum psychosis, but I think also for, for men
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: who have, you know, mental, severe mental illness, and I'm
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: sure there are other mental illnesses where you can all
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: of a sudden something, you know, cracks.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: I do think generally speaking that families, you know, partners,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: certainly husbands, wives should be given more information about postpartum
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: care and, and just the warning signs of a psychiatric emergency.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: My husband didn't know. He knew there were moments where
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: he was like, I think this breastfeeding thing's not working
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: because everybody's crying all the time, you know? But he
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: did not know the depths of what I was feeling really,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: you know? And so I don't, and I had, even
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: in the hospital, my, you know, lactation consultant was really
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: mean to me. It was this woman who was literally
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: said to me, get it together.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Well, imagine shaming a new mother.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Yes. And thank God I was an older mom where I,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: you know, knew who I was and didn't. And I went,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I don't feel like what you're saying is right or kind.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: And I asked about a breast pump and she said,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: what do you need that for? You have three hours
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: in between. You can do plenty of things in three hours.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: And she said things like, oh, you know, this generation,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: you just want to be like handed everything. I was like.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: I hope you reported her. Wow.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: Oh, I did.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, I definitely did. You know, they send you those.
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: The advocates, the patient advocates. Yeah.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Like, oh, how was your experience? And I wrote, I wrote,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: it sucked. And I wrote a whole thing and they
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: called me like the hospital called me. And I said, yeah,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: this is how it was. And so anyway, you know,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: and this is like, I have great quote unquote, great
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: healthcare and great insurance and all that. And I, you know,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: this is like, this needs to be addressed in a
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: deeper way.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: There are things that will come out of this. Yes.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: Like men's piece in this and, and being able to
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: be aware and all of that. But I was actually
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: talking about what happens now if she is acquitted or
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: if charges are lessened, we'll, you know, murderers be able
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: to use the insanity plea more easily. Is this precedent
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: setting not just for women postpartum, but for, you know,
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: men and women who do horrific things and maybe they
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: were something snapped and they were bipolar and given the
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: wrong medication. Like, I think that's part of what everyone
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: is thinking about What happens now?
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: But then the other side of that, is it the
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: worst thing if those people go into, I don't know,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: some sort of mental health facility?
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Lisa.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: And then what if they, like this, the woman that
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: I mentioned to you earlier, Constance Fisher, and then what
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: if they are released?
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: It's more easy to be released.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: If you're in an institution than if you're in a
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: penitentiary and So what does that look like? And then
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: Constance killed three more kids. These are deep, important questions
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: maybe that need to be raised. And maybe the Lindsay
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: Clancy case is everybody is so obsessed because of that,
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: because these are questions that maybe it should have been
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: addressed years ago.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it also in Lindsay's case, you have
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: to look at what she was like before. And this
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: was not some, at least from what all the evidence
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: states and people have said, this is not some diabolical
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: woman who was like violent. And she was a great
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: described as a great mom and a NICU nurse who
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: was caring for people and deeply cared about supporting people. So,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: you know, that means.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: I know. I think the same thing.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: It means a lot.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: I just don't know if.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: There are those, and I'm telling you, I am admitting
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: it here and now, that when I think about the
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: crime itself, I lose compassion. And I don't know if
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: that's a good thing or a bad thing. I'm so
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: lost in this.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: When you talk about it like this, I realize I
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: don't think I've ever really let myself think about the
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: physicality of the crime.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: I don't blame you.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: The second I get there, then I just, I can't.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: I can't.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Is it important to? I mean, I think it is.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: That happened.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: You're right. It is important.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: She did look up ways in which to do this.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: And I'm sure the jury- saw a lot more than
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: we did.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: But maybe something clicks and you say, lock her up.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: It's just too much.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I know.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: And then it's the question of, you know, in the,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: the diagnosis of psychosis, is there rationality and a, to
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: the thought process, right? So if somebody snaps, then is
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: there a logic to the psychosis right where she's like
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: okay this is the most difficult i'm going to do
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: this first and then this you know this kind of
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: like there is what is mean? Right.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: Right. They say that she sent Patrick out and told
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: him to get a medication.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: She knew wasn't going to be there.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: And I guess the big question is like, there are
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: lots of big questions, but one is, did she have
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: an idea? Was she able to distinguish right from wrong?
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Hmm.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: She was so methodical about all of this other stuff.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: Was she able to be aware enough to know she
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: was doing something?
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: This stuff, I don't know if I've brought this up before.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: All of this really, when we're talking about suicide and
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: these very tragic, complex things, I listened to this man.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: I live in San Francisco. The Golden Gate Bridge. is
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: a place where it's a destination that people come to
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: take their own lives. It's horrific what the numbers are.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: And the press does an excellent job of never promoting
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: these things. You can barely find anything about them, but
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: you just know when you live here that that's happening.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: And this hostage negotiator who would negotiate with people on
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: the bridge who were about to take their own lives,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: did this Ted talk and it was really fascinating. And
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: he talked about the one, one case in particular where
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: he had talked to this young kid and he thought
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: he was getting somewhere and they really, you know, talked
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: about life and all, and he was with him for
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: over an hour and he really thought he got somewhere.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: And then the boys just said to him, thank you
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: so much, but I'm sorry, it's too much. And he jumped.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: I know I heard about this.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: It's this thing of, If someone has something in their minds,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: at a certain point, is there nothing we can do
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: to stop them? That's the part I think that I
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: personally find so heartbreaking. What if she even did get
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: the help? Let me ask you something. How will you feel?
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: In the different scenarios, like how will you feel if
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: she goes away to jail? How will you feel if
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: she's committed to a sanitarium? How will you feel if
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: she's acquitted entirely? Let's say she's acquitted entirely and found,
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: because she can, there is that possibility, right? She can
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: get off completely.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: That seems, I would feel very unsettled if that was
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: the case. But I would feel far worse if she
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: goes to some hardcore prison.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: I just.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: I would feel terrible for her and her family and
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: everyone involved. How would you feel?
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Honestly, that's my true answer. I feel
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: like if she's acquitted, I would not be comfortable. I'm
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: not comfortable with that. I think I'd be not comfortable
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: with any of it, but being committed for the rest
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: of her life. I mean, I don't think that sounds fabulous.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: I think that probably that sounds also like a punishment.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: It's not.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: But if, and she can get out of there in
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: a few years, how do I feel about that? I
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: don't know. If she were to go to prison, maximum
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: security prison for the rest of her life, horrifying. Then
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: I think about the babies. They don't get another day.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: It's all so muddled and so sad and confusing and upsetting.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: It's just awful. Awful.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: It really is. Well, We sure don't have any of
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: the answers. And I just, I hope that whatever the
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: outcome is, that it truly is for the best and
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: highest good for everyone.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Listen, we do a lot of true crime, Elisa.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: And there are times when I talk to either it's families, victims,
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: we talk to producers and directors and things happen because
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: of these horror stories, laws are changed, right? Yes.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Awareness is increased.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: We see resiliency in a way that it's hard to
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: even imagine. I don't know if good will come out
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: of this. Certainly, I think there will be more attention
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: paid to postpartum depression and psychosis.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: So that's good.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: And if there are any policy changes that could legally
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: help this, that would, I mean, that would be right.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Certainly progress.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Right. Right. But none of it is, feels good right now.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: No, no, it doesn't. Well, I, uh, always love chatting
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: with you and I wish, I hope that, you know,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: I just send so much love and support to these
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: people to, to, Everyone, the family, Lindsay, her ex-husband.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: People don't talk a lot about how Patrick, you know,
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: because there was so much conspiracy theory.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this man is a broken man. I mean, can
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: you imagine you go to the store with, you just
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: go on a quick errand and you return and your
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: whole life is gone?
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: No, I cannot.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: And I feel like people are so quick to point
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: fingers at him.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: So imagine taking that on.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that too. I'd also like to put out into
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: the universe that maybe if people can have a little
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: less judgment and a little less attack of everyone to really,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: you know, try to see all sides.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Because it's complicated.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: Well, listen, I think we're going to have more to
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: talk about.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: I think so too.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: We still don't know what's going to happen.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: So yeah, we will reconvene.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Reconvene.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Love you.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Love you, baby.