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Does the Church Care About Men's Issues? With Matt of Effective Purpose | Fireside Chat 271 · Honey Badger Radio

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  Speaker 1: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you may be,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: and welcome back to Honey Badger Radio. My name is
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Brian and this is the fireside Chat today. I'm bringing
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  Speaker 1: back a guest that we had on about a year ago.
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  Speaker 1: I ran into his channel just so randomly on I
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  Speaker 1: think it was Facebook reels for some reason.
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  Speaker 2: Matt from the channel Effective Purpose.
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  Speaker 1: Who essentially you you have a well, I'll i'll let
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  Speaker 1: you explain what your channel was about, at least at
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  Speaker 1: the time, and how it's changed.
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  Speaker 2: So, first of all, welcome to the show. Matt really
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  Speaker 2: appreciate having me coming on.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this is awesome. Thanks for thanks for having
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  Speaker 3: me again. Yeah, So about I was on here about
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  Speaker 3: a year ago, and the main focus of my channel
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  Speaker 3: at that time was talking about sort of we'll call
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  Speaker 3: it the red pill from a Christian perspective, because I
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  Speaker 3: came from, you know, the Christian background, but all of
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  Speaker 3: this stuff that Christians told me about how to interact
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  Speaker 3: with women just kind of didn't work. I was, you know,
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  Speaker 3: I made it all the way to like thirty five
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  Speaker 3: and it's still single and it wasn't close and so
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  Speaker 3: and I had done everything to a tea exactly how
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  Speaker 3: I had been told to do it, you know, treating
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  Speaker 3: women exactly the ways that the sort of you know,
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  Speaker 3: more traditionalist Christian you know people around me had told
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  Speaker 3: me to do it. And yeah, it wasn't even in
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  Speaker 3: the ballpark of getting any of those women's actually wants
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  Speaker 3: to be around me or even treat me that well,
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  Speaker 3: even if they did were around me for very long.
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  Speaker 3: So I started coming across red pill content and I
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  Speaker 3: found that once I started to look at women's behavior
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  Speaker 3: through that lens, first of all, made a lot more sense.
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  Speaker 3: Second of all, it helped me to figure out strategies
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  Speaker 3: and ways of doing things that actually got results, and
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  Speaker 3: it was, you know, total different. So the trouble that
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  Speaker 3: I into though, is there's a lot of guys in
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  Speaker 3: that sort of manisphere, red pale kind of space that
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  Speaker 3: draw a lot of conclusions from the Red Pills observations
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  Speaker 3: that don't really line up with you know, Christian ethics
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  Speaker 3: or morals or you know, follow what Scripture says that
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  Speaker 3: we as men especially should do. And so I was like, well,
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  Speaker 3: what if I, like, I know, there's a lot of
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  Speaker 3: other Christian men are frustrated in that same way that
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  Speaker 3: things just start working with women. So what if I
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  Speaker 3: take some of the Red Pills observations and sort of
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  Speaker 3: create a Christian version of how to respond to, you know,
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  Speaker 3: the realities of female nature. I did that for about
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  Speaker 3: a year, two years something like that, and I got
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  Speaker 3: kind of a mixed response from a lot of the
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  Speaker 3: guys who were watching the channel. There were some guys
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  Speaker 3: who were kind of appreciative of it, but there were many,
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  Speaker 3: many others who were just kind of frustrated. And I
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  Speaker 3: didn't understand why. At first they I would see these
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  Speaker 3: comments saying, yeah, why is it always us? Why is
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  Speaker 3: it always us the men who have to do better?
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  Speaker 3: Why is it always us who have to to work
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  Speaker 3: so hard to understand women and navigate around whatever it
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  Speaker 3: is they choose to do. Why do women never have
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  Speaker 3: to be held to any standard or be taught how
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  Speaker 3: to treat men or how to you know, engage with
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  Speaker 3: men in a in a healthy way. Why is And
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  Speaker 3: and then that, you know, got more and more severe
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  Speaker 3: into like okay, but you know, there's there's all these
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  Speaker 3: guys out there who they they don't want any of
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  Speaker 3: this information because they look at it and go, I
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  Speaker 3: can't trust women, right, They there's so much of the
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  Speaker 3: ways that even Christian women today behave in the way
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  Speaker 3: that they treat men, and the likelihood of divorce and
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  Speaker 3: and you know, having your kids taken from me and
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  Speaker 3: all that stuff is so high that the risk is
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  Speaker 3: just too high. And so as I got more of
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  Speaker 3: those rumblings, I was like, hold up, something's not right here,
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  Speaker 3: and I did more digging and and that's when the
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  Speaker 3: channel kind of started to change and I realized, you
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  Speaker 3: know what, there's a lot of these guys they have
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  Speaker 3: a point like I. At first, I tried to, you know,
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  Speaker 3: kind of do some battle with them and tell them,
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  Speaker 3: come on, guys, like standard Christian line of hey, it's
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  Speaker 3: it's tough. You just kind of need to try your
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  Speaker 3: best and push through it. But eventually I just found
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  Speaker 3: I ran out of ways to try to refute them,
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  Speaker 3: and I wasn't I wasn't winning the debate with reality
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  Speaker 3: in that sense, because there was so much evidence that
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  Speaker 3: something was wrong. And I started digging more into it.
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  Speaker 3: I did the whole series on the history of the
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  Speaker 3: dating collapse, and I learned a lot as I studied
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  Speaker 3: for that series of videos, and I realized that this
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  Speaker 3: isn't just an issue of guys needing to know more.
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  Speaker 3: It's an issue of something needs to change. There's an
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  Speaker 3: there is a truth to what a lot of the
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  Speaker 3: sort of more black Bill guys are saying, which is
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  Speaker 3: that it is exceptionally high risk for men. And if
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  Speaker 3: we really want to re engage men and get them
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  Speaker 3: back together with women and get them and you know,
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  Speaker 3: get them married and having kids and get society back
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  Speaker 3: to a stable, functional place, things have to change. So
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  Speaker 3: I started doing a bit more advocacy for that in
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  Speaker 3: the Christian space. So, yeah, that's kind of the thirty
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  Speaker 3: thousand foot overview of how I landed where I am today.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think when I talk to you, you
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  Speaker 1: are more on the side of like, you know, like
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  Speaker 1: trying to find tools that men can use to like
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  Speaker 1: improve their odds. But it was it was still putting
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  Speaker 1: things at the feet of men. And look, that's the norm. Like,
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  Speaker 1: that's what what I've observed, you know, everywhere, no matter
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  Speaker 1: whether you're religious or not, it's like, you know, there
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  Speaker 1: to some degree, we've all internalized this idea that it
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  Speaker 1: that it just falls at the face of men. And
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  Speaker 1: some people in the in the Christian space have made
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  Speaker 1: the case that that's how it should be. Like there's
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  Speaker 1: this idea like, well, men just lead and women will follow,
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  Speaker 1: but the women are not following because right, like they're
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  Speaker 1: not recognizing like male authority is just not recognized at all,
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  Speaker 1: and and it takes a very.
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  Speaker 2: Small percentage of men can do it.
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  Speaker 1: But that's kind of the problem, right, Like, like in
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  Speaker 1: the in efforts to smash the patriarchy, they've kind of
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  Speaker 1: created a hyper patriarchy where there's like a very small
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  Speaker 1: percentage of men with a lot of influence and a
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  Speaker 1: lot of access, let's say, and to women that is,
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  Speaker 1: and it's hard for a man to like, you know,
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  Speaker 1: to just sort of suck it up.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think so, like the advocacy I've I
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  Speaker 2: just wanted to.
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  Speaker 1: Know, like, how how is that panning out? Because I
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  Speaker 1: watched you did a video and I'm not gonna nam
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  Speaker 1: any names, but there's there are a number of like
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  Speaker 1: people on YouTube that do apologia. So they don't really
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  Speaker 1: talk about like you know, men's issues or issues with
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  Speaker 1: family courts or any of that stuff. But it's more
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  Speaker 1: just about promoting Christianity, which is, you know, that's solely fine,
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  Speaker 1: but it's not entirely related, but inevitably they they do
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  Speaker 1: seem to come in conflict with the sort of manisphere
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  Speaker 1: or red.
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  Speaker 2: Pill space, and they don't take it seriously.
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  Speaker 1: And I don't think anyways, because you know, like, even
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  Speaker 1: though I'm not like those guys in the Manisphere, I've
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  Speaker 1: been doing this longer than a lot of them have,
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  Speaker 1: and I get lumped in with them anyways. So you know,
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  Speaker 1: I'm I'm trying to solve the problem of you know,
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  Speaker 1: population decline. People's people just being sort of you know,
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  Speaker 1: nihilistic about family formation, about the future, and to me,
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  Speaker 1: that starts at least with the laws. But I do
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  Speaker 1: think that something cultural has to shift in order for
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  Speaker 1: the laws to change, because we have to want that. So, like,
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  Speaker 1: what's the like, I guess, like, do you you said
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  Speaker 1: that your channel has been growing. We talked a little
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  Speaker 1: bit about this before the show started. But do you
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  Speaker 1: get like, I don't know, like a lot of pushback
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  Speaker 1: from let's say, some of the guys that are are
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  Speaker 1: or some of the people online that are part of
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  Speaker 1: the apology of space. But they're like they're just like
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  Speaker 1: outright you know, throwing all the red pill stuff out.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of their assessment of it
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  Speaker 3: appears to be a sort of guilty by association type
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  Speaker 3: of thinking where they will see sort of the worst
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  Speaker 3: elements of the red pill or I shouldn't ay red pill,
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  Speaker 3: sort of the manisphere, and they'll sort of lump it
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  Speaker 3: all together, and they believe that they see this whole
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  Speaker 3: side of the Internet as one giant monolith where everything
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  Speaker 3: is lockstep the same essentially, that that seems to be
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  Speaker 3: how they're processing it. So if there's not a lot
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  Speaker 3: of nuance to the way that they break it down
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  Speaker 3: and look at different different people in this space, which
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  Speaker 3: in the in the videos that you're referencing, that was
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  Speaker 3: kind of what I was advocating for. Was My point
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  Speaker 3: was that there this this sort of attack that they
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  Speaker 3: were making against the red pill or what they were
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  Speaker 3: calling the red pill, was that it is sort of
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  Speaker 3: just all this icky, bad women hating, selfish, cowardly you know,
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  Speaker 3: responds to water exactly. And so my contention was that no,
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  Speaker 3: that's not wise, because there's a lot of this stuff
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  Speaker 3: that isn't you know, it's it's the it's that difference
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  Speaker 3: between descriptive and prescriptive, Like a lot of the red pill.
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  Speaker 3: Guys especially, are just describing how women behave, how they
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  Speaker 3: react to certain things.
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  Speaker 2: It's not prescriptive. It's yeah, it's descriptive.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, but they're throwing, they're they're lumping them all together.
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  Speaker 3: And so what ends up happening is oftentimes Christians will
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  Speaker 3: not allow other Christians to examine women's behavior. They're they're
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  Speaker 3: they're sort of shutting down any conversation about how women behave,
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  Speaker 3: and that allows for women, even in Christian spaces, to
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  Speaker 3: get away with quite a lot of behavior that is
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  Speaker 3: damaging to men. It's uh, it's damaging to families, is
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  Speaker 3: damaging to those women's own souls, as far as I
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  Speaker 3: can tell, at least, that's that's my interpretation of what
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  Speaker 3: Scripture says, is that if you're behaving in a way
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  Speaker 3: that's that's wicked and evil, that that evil, that sin
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  Speaker 3: will destroy everything it touches, and that includes you. So
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  Speaker 3: it will destroy the people around you, and it will
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  Speaker 3: destroy you. So but the the place where most Christians
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  Speaker 3: seem to land is that whenever a woman is behaving
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  Speaker 3: poorly or disrespectfully, or she's doing something that that is
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  Speaker 3: damaging to a man, it's the man's responsibility to sacrifice
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  Speaker 3: and simply just take it. But my contention is that
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  Speaker 3: that's actually that's bad for the man obviously, but it's
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  Speaker 3: also bad for the woman, and it's not what that's
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  Speaker 3: not what we're ever told to do. It's a complete
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  Speaker 3: misrepresentation of what's in scripture, and it's a misrepresentation that's
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  Speaker 3: giving a lot of people completely the wrong idea about
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  Speaker 3: what Christianity is and who God is, because what you'll
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  Speaker 3: end up seeing is a lot of guys who believe
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  Speaker 3: that that's how God treats them, that God looks at
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  Speaker 3: them and says, no, you, I don't care about your suffering.
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  Speaker 3: I don't care about your struggles. I don't care about
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  Speaker 3: what other people do to you. You're just You're just
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  Speaker 3: a punching bag. You're just a place for You're just
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  Speaker 3: a place for people. You're something to be exploited and
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  Speaker 3: used for your resources, and that's it. That's all you
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  Speaker 3: ever will be. And so my contention is that that's
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  Speaker 3: not ever what what we're told by God to be
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  Speaker 3: or to do. We're told to actually do the harder thing,
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  Speaker 3: which is to hold women accountable, and that's something that's
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  Speaker 3: just being not entirely. I don't want to treat the
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  Speaker 3: Christian space the same way many of those apology you
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  Speaker 3: guys treat the red pill and sort of put it
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  Speaker 3: into this like it's all one monolith. We're all Christians
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  Speaker 3: see it the same way. It's not. There are plenty
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  Speaker 3: of Christian commentators out there. One of one that I
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  Speaker 3: would highly recommend doctor David Edgington. He's a pastor and
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  Speaker 3: a Christian counselor. He has a couple of really good books.
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  Speaker 3: I just finished his first book. It's called The Abusive Wife.
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  Speaker 3: He's a guy who used to be a Christian counselor
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  Speaker 3: who when a woman was sitting against a man and
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  Speaker 3: they had them in his counseling office, he would tell
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  Speaker 3: the man, come on, dude, you just need to be tougher.
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  Speaker 3: And he sort of had to realize over a period
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  Speaker 3: of time and that was just lead better bro. Yeah. But
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  Speaker 3: he realized after watching these women go completely unrepentant and
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  Speaker 3: just watching what was going on in their hearts, that
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  Speaker 3: that was completely wrong. And so he's now writing books
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  Speaker 3: and going to you know, doing speaking on podcasts and
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  Speaker 3: stuff trying to speak against that. So there are people
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  Speaker 3: in the Christian space who are starting to recognize this. Sure,
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  Speaker 3: there are even a decent number of people at my
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  Speaker 3: own church, like, my church is not perfect in this area,
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  Speaker 3: and we recognize that even as a staff, and we're
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  Speaker 3: starting to have conversations about this. So I don't want
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  Speaker 3: to treat this as though it's like all Christians see
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  Speaker 3: it this way and so Christianity.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, totally I get that. Why do you think
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  Speaker 1: it's so hard? Like why because I like just saying, we,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we we should be holding women accountable or
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  Speaker 1: at least treating them like they are a part of
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  Speaker 1: this conversation because it seems like the way it is
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: now at least in I would say, primarily, and I
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  Speaker 1: don't I'm not saying this to be mean, but I
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  Speaker 1: think primarily in terms of the church, it's Protestants that
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  Speaker 1: are running into this problem. But that doesn't mean the
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  Speaker 1: Catholics and the Orthodox don't have that problem too. I
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  Speaker 1: was just talking about this with Alison. The Orthodox there
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  Speaker 1: are women trying to be deacons and the Orthodox church
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  Speaker 1: fathers are basically like, no, no, no, we're not doing that. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: And it's because it and this is not to be
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  Speaker 1: cruel but it's like you, if you give a little bit,
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  Speaker 1: it's it's only a matter of time before the entropy
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  Speaker 1: creeps in. And yeah, and the thing about I think
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  Speaker 1: that any church period should be doing. It's one of
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  Speaker 1: the things that I think is most crucial is to
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  Speaker 1: hold on to the structures that have worked for two
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  Speaker 1: thousand years, you know, as much as you can, because
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: that's like preserving like you know, that's like the most
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: important part. It's like the most conservative thing you can
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: do is preserve it as it is. But it's like this,
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  Speaker 1: I just modern, these modern notions that creep into everything. Right,
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  Speaker 1: So it's not I'm not even singling the church per se,
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  Speaker 1: but I think that that's like one of the last
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: sort of bulwarks against this stuff, and it is. It's
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  Speaker 1: it's hard because we've almost like arranged the way we
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  Speaker 1: think and talk about these things to put the way
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  Speaker 1: we might be perceived ahead of the truth.
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  Speaker 2: So like, people, do you understand what I'm saying?
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  Speaker 1: So, yeah, saying that all side, if you want to
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  Speaker 1: respond to, that's fine, But why do you think it's
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  Speaker 1: so hard for people to do that, to like make
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: that that you know, pivot in in Because it's.
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  Speaker 2: So easy to do that to men because men generally
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  Speaker 2: put up with it.
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  Speaker 3: So why do you think that is emotions? It's it's well,
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: probably the better way to describe it is the story
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  Speaker 3: that we see ourselves in men. Most men want to
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  Speaker 3: see themselves in a sort of hero narrative. Now, going
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  Speaker 3: back to what you're saying about like deacons and all
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  Speaker 3: of that, there are there is some evidence in in
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  Speaker 3: like in I think it's the Book of Backs that
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: or in some in some of the New Testament scriptures,
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  Speaker 3: there is evidence that there were deacon essays, so there
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: were may have been some women at that time filling
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: that role. But what you'll see is guys who take
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  Speaker 3: little things like that and they extrapolate out from there
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  Speaker 3: that women should have headship roles and teaching roles and
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  Speaker 3: all these other leadership roles and things like that that
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: are clearly against what scripture says. And I think largely
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  Speaker 3: the reason for that is we as men want to
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  Speaker 3: see ourselves as heroes who protect the damsel in distress
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  Speaker 3: and rescue women from you know, the dragon. Today, as
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  Speaker 3: our world is quite a bit physically safer than it
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: used to be for most of those last two thousand years,
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: you know, or even farther back than that, the the
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: the amount of actual threats to a woman have gone down.
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  Speaker 3: And what my observation has been that men typically they
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  Speaker 3: default down to what they see as the worst threat
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  Speaker 3: and then try their best to protect women from that.
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  Speaker 3: So in a world where women aren't really threatened by
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  Speaker 3: lions and bandits and you know, a harsh winter and
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: all of that, what they'll typically assess as being the
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  Speaker 3: worst threat is a threat to her reputation women. And
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  Speaker 3: that's something that it appears women will women view as
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  Speaker 3: a priority for themselves. It's it's like women see their
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  Speaker 3: their reputation as one of their biggest assets for protecting
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: themselves and gaining the resources that they that they would
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  Speaker 3: like to gain. And there's there's an interesting book called
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: Warriors and Warriors Joyce F. Beninson, I think where she
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: observed men's and what she's a researcher. She observed men's
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  Speaker 3: and women's behavior from infancy right to try to see
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  Speaker 3: a lot of the differences. And what she found is
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  Speaker 3: that both men and women compete for resources, but they
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  Speaker 3: do it differently. Women compete for resources by competing for
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  Speaker 3: men and one of the ways that they do that.
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  Speaker 3: The main way they do that is through reputation. It's
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  Speaker 3: a sort of like you've probably met it for Jordan
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  Speaker 3: Peterson talk about like reputation savaging and things like that. Sure,
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  Speaker 3: So what they will do is they will view their reputation,
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  Speaker 3: their social standing within the community as one of their biggest,
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: if not their biggest, connection to resources and protection. So
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: for them, if there's anything that might suggest that she's
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: a negative to the community or that might reduce her
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: social standing, her ability to get a high level man
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: who can bring in lots of resources, that to her
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: feels instinctively like a threat to her life. So she
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: will talk about it that way and she will fight
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: for her reputation in that way. Men then key in
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: on that, see that women value their reputation very heavily
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: and also into it. Hey, if I want to protect women,
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: this is the best way for me to do it.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: And so they'll go after any anything or anyone that
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: threatens a woman's reputation. And so if if there's guys
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: who are like calling women out and saying, hey, these
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: behaviors that women are commonly engaging in, these are not
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: in line with scripture. Well, that's the thing that threatens
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: that any any particular woman who is you know, living
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: in that way or acting that way, that threatens her reputation,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: and you know she's going to speak up about that.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: And the guys of the church who are more maybe
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: they're married already, they're more comfortable, you know, they they've
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: sort of gotten their life going, you know, a while ago.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: They're looking for a way to feel like they're you know,
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: they are that hero that's swooping in and protecting the
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: women from the dragon. And that dragon is that evil, bad,
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: you know man who's trying to yeah, whatever it may be.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: So I think is the biggest reason. I would also
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: couple that with there seems to be an element of
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: callousness towards men. Is this something that doctor Warren Ferrell
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: talks about in a few of his books. The Boy
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: Crisis is a really good book for people to read
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: if they want to that we as humans just seem
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: to naturally have a sort of callousness towards the well
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: being of men. And he suggests that that's because if
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: you start to care about men, then you will be
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: less willing to throw them into the meat grinder. Of
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: a war, you know that you'll be less willing to
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: put them between you and danger. You'll be less willing
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: to send them out into the field to go work
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: for resources. If you start to care about their will being,
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: there's a.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Fear that they'll have the same that they could hold
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: the same priority in terms of like they're yeah, let's
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: say their expendability as women. So then we could end
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: up in a situation where we won't essentially do anything
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: dangerous because we don't know risk men or women.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Or do anything that needs to be done. So unfortunately, level, on.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Some level, we men do have to beable because they'd
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: be better than women for it. But that doesn't mean
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: that we don't like value you know that we don't
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: throw men into war willy nilly, is what I'm saying.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: But like, on some level, we need men to be
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: the the essentially to engage in force doctrine because there's
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: nothing else that can Like women can't do that, not
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: because we care about them more, but because they.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Just can't do it. So yeah, yeah, it's their strength,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Right, And this is tough.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Because I think just real quick, what we have made
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: the world so safe for women through through all of
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: our modern advances and everything and things like the legal system,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: et cetera, that we're still looking for threats to them,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: and they're in and they're like in the small areas
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: where we know they like, there's nothing asked of them
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: in terms of their ability to resist or be somewhat resilient,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: and in many ways we've made them a lot weaker
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: than I think women have been historically.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I was talking about safety.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: And how we have, uh, we've made things so safe
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: and comfortable for women that we're looking.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: For, like you said, dragons the sleigh.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Where you know things are that there really isn't any
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: and and then maybe this is kind of a problem.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: The other thing I was going to add to that too,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: is that this could to some degree be something that
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: men should be sort of vigilant against, Like is the
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: uh hold on a second, is is is it vainglory
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: to be looking for these kinds of threats all the time?
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean, ignoring those those instincts and
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: more about redirecting them in a healthy way. Yeah, I
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: think we were We were talking about how I think
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: a lot of a lot of people today in general
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: especially I mean everybody, whether left right. Uh, you know, Atheists,
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: christian everybody has sort of been swept away by instincts
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: and they're just sort of following what feels right to them.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: And if we look, if we dig underneath those layers
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: of what's making us feel things, we have some really
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: strong instincts to protect women, which is a good instinct
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: in a vacuum. But and we also have this instinct
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: to build a little bit callous or a lot callous
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: towards men. And we're not super willing to really examine
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: those instincts or question them when we feel them.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: So a woman from the Guardian made it her mission
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: to feminize Mount Athos, all male monastery.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: I know, but like those things are going to happen,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: but like you just have to say no. And I
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: think the guys at Mount Athos are not They're not
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: going to do it like that that. I think that
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: that's the I don't think that this ideology is as
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: compromising as some people claim. I think it's been made
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: this way. Oh, his internet went down and I was
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: gonna mention two and I'll mention this to him when
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: he comes on. Like there is a lot of men
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: are not going to church because they don't think they're
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: gonna meet a woman in church. But there are a
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: lot of men going to Orthodox Church. So men are
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: converting to Orthodoxy, and the reason is because they're looking
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: for something that is masculine, and it is a masculine
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: a more masculine framing depending on which branch, like the
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Russian Orthodox Church is a more masculine one, whereas the
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Greek Orthodox Church is a little bit more like I
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: don't at least it's a bit more liberal than other
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Orthodox churches, but still very masculine. So Metallica says mount
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Athos monks our next level celibates.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: She will fail.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Monday the sixteenth.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess so bad luck. Huh.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Zeno Demon says getting my car tuned up to R
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: the end in style. Zareing says YouTube doesn't like this
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: conversation you're having that and or your respective service providers
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: think this conversation is dangerous. The globalists can't have any
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: of this. Yes, globalists, that's how we'll say it, globalists.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Globalists.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: Okay, do you have me? Now?
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, I have you. Now you're back, thank you?
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's funny my wife was just like, hey,
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: you need to pray over the router because this could
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: literally be the devil just doesn't want this conversation to
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: happen or something.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we were just.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Saying people in the chat were just saying that. So okay, okay,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: so let's talk about this your wife.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: For a second. If you don't know so you said that.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: You did you actually use some like like take some
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: of this like sort of red pill knowledge to help you.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: I guess court your wife, your wife and and other
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: of your child. You're soon having congratulations again by the way.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that was that was a huge
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: part of it is I tried for years to do
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: this sort of nice guy stuff that you're sort of
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: told to do as a Christian guy, which is mostly
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: just be the most spiritually capable man that you can
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: focus on, you know, doing the Bible studies, serving at
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: the church, you know, being on the worship team or
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: whatever it may be, you know, stack chairs. And then
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: from there, as far as how to treat women, it's
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: generally just be nice to them, be sweet, be attentive
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: to what they say, Defer to them if they want
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: a particular thing, don't be you know, it's don't be controlling,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: don't be don't have an edge to yourself. Sure, a lot,
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: I mean a lot of you guys are probably familiar
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: with a lot of what that stuff is. I tried
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: all of that stuff.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: And.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: I ended up with a lot of women in the
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: church around me that were friends, but none that would
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: be none that would stay interested in me romantically for
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: more than about two weeks to two months. And I
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: would get some interest because I'm not a bad looking guy,
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: you know, and so it was maybe I didn't have
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: it quite as bad as some of the other guys did,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: but the ladies who were interested would not stay interested
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: for very long once they figured out that, oh, yeah,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: this guy isn't really acting in a way that makes
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: me feel that sense, you know, the sensation the instinct
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: of this guy. Yeah, I don't feel the butterflies. And
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: they're often not told again again, it's it's we're just
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: not taught what our instincts are doing to us, especially
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: as Christians were told to kind of spiritualize and canonize
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: those feelings a lot of the time, as if it's
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: God speaking to you when you know it might be.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: But a lot of the time. It's just your gut
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: instinct telling you to you know, if you're a girl
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: telling news again with the highest level, best providing man
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: that you can again. Not a bad instinct in a vacuum.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: It's just that instinct isn't being questioned by any of
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: the women at that church or any of the churches
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: I've been to, And it wasn't something that I was
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: aware of, so I didn't know how to work with
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: it or around it. So once I started learning what
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: was going on there and seeing the patterns that in
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: that behavior, I was able to navigate it quite a
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: bit better. And I started slowly. It took a few years,
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: but I started to get something resembling results.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and your wife, she she does she help you
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: with your content because you guys have done at least
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: I watched at least one video of you guys working together.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Or at least producing it.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: So having a conversation as it were, so like does
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: she she's I assume like knows about where you're coming
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: from with all this stuff and is aware of these things.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: So what are what are you her thoughts on that?
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: Well, it was pretty apparent. I mean I made it
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: very obvious from the time that we started dating that
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: this is the stuff I'm talking about. You know, I'm
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: just I'm gonna be honest about the way that women behave.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: And she from the you know, from the moment we
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: started dating, she was watching the YouTube videos that I
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: was putting out and she was agreeing with it and
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: just going, yeah, I see that. And then she would
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: and she'd be like, and also, here's this other thing
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: that you missed that that we as ladies do. So
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: she was adding her own perspectives to it and and
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: sort of filling in some of the gaps that I
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: maybe hadn't seen yet because she's you know, she's has
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: a bit more introspective personality and is has has a
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: bit of self awareness and is able to kind of
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: analyze her own behavior. She's also analytical about the way
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: that that you know, the women around her behave and
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: you know, how she's been treated by women and all that.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: So she gets it, she sees it, and she has
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: a heart for it too, like it's something that she
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: does not like seeing men sort of put in this
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: place where they're you know, it's it's all responsibility but
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: no ability. You know, you're so hamstrung that you're you're
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: just there to take the consequences, you can't actually lead,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: And then you know, and guys sort of getting locked
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: out of the sort of Christian married good life. Yeah,
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: she you know, she's she sees where that leads and
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: and and just to some agree, she's been you know,
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: she's been on the receiving end of a lot of
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: the stuff that women do too. So this is this
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: is something I would point out to a lot of
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: the guys out there. Uh it, it would not be
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: fair to say that women as a whole are your enemy.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: Uh No, there is no group. Like again, we talked
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: about the monolith idea at the at the beginning of
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: this of like it's the red pill. Is not a
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: monolith that sees things the same way across the board.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: Neither is that you're to Neither are women. There are
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: many women out there who are starting to wake up
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: to many of these same things, and they're tired of
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: the ways that other women them and they want women
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: to be held accountable. They're also recognizing that there's all
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: you know, there's a decent chunk of women whose bad
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: behavior is making them look bad, even though they don't
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: necessarily engage in those same things. So we're starting to
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: see the shift of women wanting a bit more accountability
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: for women and wanting the truth told about how women
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: behave too. And so that was one of the things
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: that kind of told me that, hey, this is probably
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: a good woman for me to be with and to marry.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: And yeah, she's been very helpful, very supportive. We just
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: did a couple of videos where the ones that you
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: mentioned where she actually wrote most of this, I mean,
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: the sort of the elements of the script we were
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: talking about.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: The footnotes or like thee like the bullet points that you're.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so yeah, the videos where we were talking
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: about ways that women do evil and sin that Christians
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: often just overlook and ignore, and she was the one
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: who wrote down what most of those are that she
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: was seeing and you know, and we sort of collaborated
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: on that one, and she helped me. She was, you know,
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: right next to me on camera talking about it, and
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: you know, we were kind of bouncing our thoughts back
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: and forth off each other. She also edits a lot
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: of these videos. She's over editing another conversation I had
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: with another YouTuber right now. So, yeah, she's been very
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: helpful and very supportive and all this.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and with regards to what we were talking about before,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: like you know, we were talking about why.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Is it that.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: People do have this it's like a fear of I'm
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: holding women accountable when they do wrong, right unless it's
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: other women. And that's another thing too, is that, like
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: you know, we what this channel was built on, not
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: a Christian channel, but a men's issues channel. Was the
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: central concept was women that were speaking out on behalf
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: of men. And also you know, being able to sort
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: of like criticize or put a spotlight on women's evil
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: when happens because people don't they they don't want to
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: see it, right, and so's it seems to be very distasteful.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: And I think that the blanket blaming of like the
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: red pill of the manisphere is a way of sort
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: of like not facing women's evil because the I mean,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: the truth is if it came from anywhere, like like
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: let's say it wasn't like one of these popular red
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: pill guys.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: And I think that's the thing that's funny is that
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: the the the.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: People who get the most attention in the menisphere are
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: the ones that have like they're they're the easiest to criticize,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: so because they either have like you know, I don't
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: know bad let's say, prescriptions. If they have prescriptions, or
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: their image is something that can be pointed at. You know,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: it's it's almost like they're like cartoonish versions of like
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: everything the feminists dream up that men are and then
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: so that they play that role. And then they point
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: at that and say, yeah, that's the manisphere. And you know,
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: it's a shame because a lot of them are just
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: regular guys like me, I'm married, I don't I don't
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't play the field.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: I'm too old. I just talk about divorce and child custody,
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: et cetera.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it seems like it becomes like an easy
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: way to avoid that conversation when you just say, well,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: this is that's a manisphere talking point. And here's an
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: example of a manisphere guy, and it's a guy like
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: you know, with sunglasses, puffing on a cigar, slapping a
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: woman on the behind or something, and so like then
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: it makes it like difficult to have that conversation. So
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: why are they hiding from this necessary discussion?
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: You think, uh, well, again, it goes back to what
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: we you know, were talking about earlier. I think it
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: is it is primarily an emotional issue, and again it's
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: it's about the story that they see themselves in, seeing
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: that A big piece of that story that we haven't
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: sort of touched on yet is this sort of it's
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: what There's a Christian author, his name is John Eldridge.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: He calls it The Golden Haired Woman. As a part
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: of that story we see ourselves in as men of
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: I want to be the hero who saves the day,
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: rescues the damsels damsel in distress, and then gets to
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: live happily ever after with her. You have to have
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: a damsel in distress who's worth living happily ever after
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: with and a lot of a lot of the sort
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: of emotional satisfaction that men draw from that story comes
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: from seeing women in this sort of angelic light men.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: I think it's Doctor Robert Glover talks in Is He
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: has a h He has quite a bit to say
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: about this, but no more. Mister Nice Guy is probably
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: the book that most of you guys are familiar with.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: He talks about how guys today are desperate for women's approval,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: like likely because they've been raised almost exclusively by women
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: and around women, and that the approval and affection and
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: attention that we get from women romantically becomes the thing
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: that we hunger for the most as men. And if
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: the woman and and the the kind of woman that
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: you're receiving from matters for as far as the potency
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: of that emotional goodness or whatever you want to call it.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: If the woman that you're receiving approval and affection from
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: is worth if she were, if she were an angel,
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: then well then you would have this otherworldly, angelic higher
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: being that's condescending to you as a man and giving
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: you approval. That type of creature's approval of you is
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: going to be so much more meaningful to you than
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: if it's a dirty, disgusting other human. Right, it's it's
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: just if it's if it If this is a person
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: who is capable of doing evil and actually does instead
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: of the angel we want to see her as well,
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: then for that person to show me approval, it just
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: doesn't do as much for me. So there is a
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: fear in a sense of losing the approval and validation
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: or the potency of it that we'd like to receive,
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: I think, And there's uh, there's I mean there's there's
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: a desire element to it, and then there's a fear
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: element as well. Guys are afraid of what women will
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: do to them. They know that because they want so
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: much emotional satisfaction from women in those ways. Well, that
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: gives a massive lever to those women that they can
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: then hold over those men's head and say, hey, if
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: you don't behave how I want, if you don't give
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: me what I want, I can take that affection away.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: I can take approval away, I can take intimacy away.
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: All those things that you're seeking to have me satisfy.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: I can use those as leverage against you, and I
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: can control you. And I can even go the opposite direction.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: I can disapprove of you. I can shame you and
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: guilt you and make you feel like you are the
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: worst worm on the earth. And that is incredibly motivating.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: That sort of fear of retaliation from women is a
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: massive motivating factor. So you have this incentive to sort
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: of pedestalized women and hide their behavior, and then you
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: have a fear of exposing it on. So it's it's
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: coming from both ends as far as I can tell.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I think there's another layer to it too,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: and I am going to like say, this is a
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: little bit the fault of these men. There is a
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: it's a it's a bit vain or like beingving glorious
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: to put yourself in the position of the savior. So
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: like there is like an element of pride that I
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: think that those men should observe in themselves because they
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: they feel that they're you know, we have this this
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: concept that we talk about called the one good man
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: where the men the men who sort of like you know,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: white knight for women. And when I say white knight,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's bad to be, you know,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: like a good man, but like they do it specifically
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: for women without actually like you know, sort of discerning
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: whether or not that woman is deserving of their support, right, yeah,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: because women can act in ways that are deceitful and
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: just like men can. So there there's a bit of
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: vanity in that, because what seems to be baked in
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: is is like I'm the one that's qualified to do this.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: I'm a better man than these other men.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: It's like put your you're still kind of engaging in
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: a competition with men, but you're doing it on a
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: social level, and you're using your you know, like I
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: don't know, like you're you're basically making yourself to be
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: a better man than these other men. And that's sort
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: of I think that that is a there is a
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: you know, speaking as a layman completely, but I think
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: that there is sin baked into that as well.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: Does that make sense, Yeah, yeah, there's it's there's a
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: social element to it as well. Is of like, if
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: you're a guy who's you know, in a conservative community
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: or you're going to a church, you want to look
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: like the best guy that you can be. You want
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: people to think that you're the good Christian and because
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: that's what the culture has decided, you know, Christianese cultures
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: is what I call it, because that's what Christianese has
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: decided is the correct thing to do, is to know,
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: is to protect women from anything that might stain their
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: reputation or whatever it may be. Guys want to be
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: the good guy and so they want to be accepted
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: in that way. They want to be part of the team.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: There's there's a there's a lot of in our culture today,
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: there is a lot of team based tribal thinking, and
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: that that informs a lot of the ways that we
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: react to things. Once our tribe decides that a certain
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: way is correct, it's like you kind of got to
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: get on board or get out.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: And so that's a lot, a lot of what I
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: think I'm running into as I try to talk about
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: this stuff.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: And that's interesting too, is that this this sort of
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: tribalist nature of you know, like whatever the teams are.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: It does allow people who.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Are who don't belong or maybe have ail intentions so
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: to slip in and like you know, leach off of
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: some of the cloud or support or attention or money
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: or whatever. So for example, and just to give an
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: example of like the things that these guys should be
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: on the lookout for, is what happened with Nalarey.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: For example, you guys, you know about Nala ray right shows.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: She was like, you know, big on OnlyFans online, prostitute,
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: has lots of videos, and then suddenly she just you know,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: found Catholicism and then she converted and she did the
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: rounds on social media and it was just another way
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: for her. And again it's if it's genuine, I'm all
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: for it. But the lack of humility in that is
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: what I think is something that should be observed and
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: not necessarily challenged, but at least like you take a
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: step back and say, well, let's see what happens. You
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: just watched them for a while to see if they
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: stay on that road. But I think that ultimately what
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: she ended up doing was using that to go on
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: the Daily Wire and talk to Michael Knowles and promote,
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: you know, another way of essentially monetizing herself, like turning
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: herself into another brand. Another one that did this was
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Sarah Stock when and she was caught basically having an
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: affair with a married guy, Elijah Shaeffer. He was having
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: trouble to his marriage and she had just gotten engaged
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: as some other guy. So it's like but people were
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: still essentially just putting the blame on him, which I
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: you know, obviously he deserves some blame because that's wrong,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: but but not on her. They were like, well, you know,
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: she didn't know like he you know, he had power
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: over her because he was her boss. And and this
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: is the thing that it's like, well, but she also like,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: if we don't give women agency, which means we call
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: them out when they do bad, then we can't they
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: can't really celebrate or take some solace when they do good,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: because there's no such thing like there's no bad, there's
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: no good. You can't accomplish good things right if you
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: can't be like sort of I don't know, reprimanded for
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: stepping away from that. And there's a lot of people
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: of men and women that would sort of excuse that behavior.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, it seems like there's this This, as
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: far as I can tell, is rooted in the sort
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: of feminist power narrative, that idea that you have to
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's it goes back more to Marxism, I
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: think than anything. It's that idea that a person needs
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: to have well, everything is a power struggle, right, and
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: if a person doesn't. Feminists took that and essentially said
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: a person needs to have power to be safe, to
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: be worth something as a human, and to be a
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: happy You can't have a high quality, good life unless
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: you have control, an autonomy, and power. What feminists rejected
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: was responsibility and consequences. So what they ended up wanting
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: was to be able to make whatever decisions they want,
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: and do whatever decisions they want, and act on whatever
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: they want, but still have men shoulder all the consequences
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: for whatever they decided. And yeah, what we're finding out
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: is that that is not healthy for relationships and marriages
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: because you end up with the situations like the one
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: you described, where both a man and a woman made
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: made decisions. They both made choices, but we treat it
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: as if only the man made a choice and that
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: she was completely powerless, when that's simply just not true.
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: And that's how you end up in these situations where
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: you have massive divorce rates and you have women who
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: are essentially they're they're I mean, you have bad actors
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: going into Christian communities and trying to find men to exploit.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Or they just try to corrupt the church, like by
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: basically making them change the rules, you know, a little
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: bit here, a little bit there, like it, and and
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: it's it's not well, it's you know, I don't I
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: guess I personally believe that there are always spiritual forces
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: at work. But when the women do it in their
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: own mind, they're not They're just thinking about their own comfort. Yeah,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: and uh, but like what they don't realize is what
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: that compromises, you know.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and it is important to recogniz guy, is that, like,
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: first of all, that narrative is false. I mean, and
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: this is why I think it's important. I mean, this
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: is why I have to go back to God and
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: to Scripture. I have to set this at the feet
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: of a higher authority, because if otherwise, one either men
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: or women, will put themselves in the God spot and
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: will try to you know they will. And because we're both,
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: we're all totally flawed, and we have this this twisting
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: of selfishness and sin and brokenness in ourselves. It's not
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: gonna look good if either of us puts ourselves in
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: the God spot. We have to submit this to God.
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: The trouble is that most Christians are not willing to
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: do that at the moment, because we're so averse to
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, even admitting that women are
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: evil and that they actually in any more than a
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: theoretical way, like admitting that they actually do things that
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: are sinful and harmful. But you also have to get
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: back to just letting Scripture be in charge of deciding
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: first of all, what is right and wrong for a
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: man and a woman to do, and second of all,
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: how to deal with that, because this idea that well,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: it's all the men's fault and men need to take
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: all the blame and responsibility and they need to do better,
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: they need to repent. Well, I'm sorry, but men can't
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: repent for women. They just can't like that. That's nothing
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: that There is nothing that's in scripture that indicates that.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: And if you don't have women also taking responsibility for
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: their choices, you've got two parties, two groups of people
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: making decisions. And if you only go after one of
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: them and tell them to change their decisions, you're still
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: going to have this other party making decisions and breaking things.
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: So it's just not going to work. You're going to
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: see this long term destruction and disintegration of relationships that
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: stems from broken trust. Men today don't most. I think
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: it's something like half of single men who are of
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: marriage age, like eighteen to twenty nine something like that,
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: half of them aren't. And that was from a few
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: years ago. Presumably that number has grown based on like
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: black pill, you know, media consumption, content and that stuff,
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: you know, get exploding a popularity. As the red pill
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: has kind of diminished a bit, it seems like more
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: and more guys are just saying, no, we can't trust
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: these women's behavior. It's just because it's gone so unaccountable
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: for so long. Women have become accustomed to being being
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: having complete permissiveness, just grace, grace, grace for everything they do.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: All the rebuke goes on to the men for and
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: you know, the calls to repent go on to men. Well, yeah,
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: the ladies have gotten accustomed to that, and their behavior
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: has slipped. It's it's, you know, fallen down a very
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: slippery slope, kind of very slowly and incrementally, kind of
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: as you're saying, to the point that you know, we
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: haven't really noticed it if you're on the inside of
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: the Christian bubble. But that behavior has broken men's trust.
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: And the only way out of that, as far as
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: I can tell, is to deal is to put some
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: kind of structure in place that begins to hold women
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: accountable again.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well said I wanted to add to that.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: I think that to to just for I wanted to
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: say that the truth is we're all living in a
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: somewhat you know, feminist mind like zeitgeist like yea. Even
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: the people who are conservative, who claim to be conservative
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: are like on some level they are bending the need
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: to a sort of you know, vaguely feminist worldview. And
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: so this is the thing that's very hard because you know,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: you get people saying, oh, you know, I don't know
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: so and so is a closet feminist or a conservative feminist.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: No, there's no such thing. There's just there's just what
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: wave are you in? That's basically what it is.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: And most people are in the second wave, and then
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: you have like the crazies that are in the third wave.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: But like most people are are to some degree of
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: internalized it.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: And that's why.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: It's so hard to shake because it's sort of like
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: defined our entire society, so like it's become the norm.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: It's the zeitgeist, yeah, and or the spirit of the age,
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: if you will. So that's why it's so hard to shake.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: And so that's why, you know, I asked you before
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: we started the show. We were talking a little bit
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: about your interview with This Is Shah, who I had
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: on the show as well. You guys might remember that episode,
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: and we were talking about Dowry and how you know,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: in essentially historically, you know, the marriage arrangements were very
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: different and jokingly I said, wow, that looks like it
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: could work, but no one would accept that today. We're
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: not ready for that. And that's that's that's an example
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: of what I mean. You know, even like setting that aside,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: I would talk about, how, you know, people talk about
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: how hard it is to date these days, and I'd
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: be like, well, you know, in the old days, you
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: didn't even like you, just you didn't even date like you.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Just like you just saw the guy who lives down
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: the street. You know, I grew up with his family.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: We we've known each other since we were children. I'm
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: gonna marry that guy. It was just whoever was in
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: your vicinity. But now that we are become like more
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: of a globally you know, global society in terms of
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: everybody being able to talk to anybody from anywhere, than
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: women's options have exploded, and of course they're they're dealing
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: with to some degree analysis paralysis where they can't even
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: decide who they want to see. And because they have
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: so many options and there are so many men giving
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: them so much attention, then they're going to like never
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: make a decision, or they're going to end up You're
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: gonna end up in a situation where you have a
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: large number of women dating a very small pool of
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: men and they're they're in situationships, which is like a
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: thing that's happening these days. So to some degree, we
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: are you know, modernity itself is a product of that
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: kind of you know, low resolution feminist worldview that we're
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: all living under. And this is a thing that you
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: can't really like undo because or at least not by
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: like going back to like you know, dowry laws and
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: arranged marriages. But it would be it would be a fix.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: It just said, No, one's ready to have that conversation,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I think there's different stuff that we would
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: need to clean up first, I mean, and yeah, that
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: was kind of where I landed after that conversation with Shaw,
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: is like, yeah, that would work, and it would help too,
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: especially in the economic end of things with with people
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: young people being having such a hard time getting their
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: life started. If their you know, their parents and their
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: grandparents had you know, saved up some of that money
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: instead of just putting it towards their retirement or their
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: second or third home, you know, create something that they
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: can give to their daughters as a way to help
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: them get their their life started. That would solve a
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: lot of economic issues as well. But no, I don't
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: think that that's the the root of the issue is.
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that the economy was really good
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: for a long time and it insulated us from a
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: lot of that that you know, the difficulties that come
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: with high permissiveness, and you know, the sexual revolution and
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: unrestrained hypergamy and all of that. And we're sort of
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: coming out of that and realizing that, oh, shoot, those
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: decisions actually do have consequences now that money isn't bubble
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: wrapping us from that anymore. But I think the way
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: forward from this is to first what you have to
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: do two things. You have to get guys in a
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: place where they can trust women again, and you have
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: to get women in a place where they can feel
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: satisfied with the men that they're with again. And I
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: think there's a couple of ways that we can do that.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: One is we can either start cleaning up and repairing
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: our church institutions or planting new ones that do not
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: show favoritism to women in the way that they administer
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: church discipline. I think that that's step number one. It's
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: the most obvious option on the board. If you want
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: guys to trust women again. Well, first of all, you're
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: gonna have to admit they and tell the truth, you know,
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: admit that they actually do have some really negative behaviors.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: Are there a decent number of bad actors within all
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: of our Christian communities and we need safeguards in place
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: against those bad actors. And that's going to take actual,
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: fair and balanced, scripturally based administration of church discipline. Another thing,
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: as far as the hypergamy thing, Once you have that,
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: I want to I want to test out an idea
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: on you guys and see what what you and your
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: your audience, uh think of this. If we had a
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: if we could, I would create a church database structure
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: where any person that wants to date at your particular
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: local church first has to get vetted as a as
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: a candidate by you know, the church elders to try
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: to screen for bad actors and screen for their their
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: worldview and their mindset. Screen for you know, you can
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: find out stuff about like how much of the feminist
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: worldview have these people accepted, or you know, if a
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: man is really just or towards women and he's going
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: to treat her terribly or whatever. You can screen for
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: that stuff. You can have a list of things that
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: you would have them have to agree to before they
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: can get on in to this list of vetted candidates.
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: And one of those things that you could put on
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: that list is an agreement that you will not use
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: social media or dating apps, just they will not be
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: a part of your life. That could help and that
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: if you're going to be on this list of vetted
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: dating candidates, you are not going to look at any
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: outside potential places, not intentionally. Maybe you meet some of
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: you the grocery store, that's fine, but you're not going
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: to go looking on hints. You're not going to go
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: church hopping at other churches. You're not going to try
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: to expand your pool of options as wide as you
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: possibly can. I'm just going to stay focused here. And
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: I think that something like that could go a long
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: ways towards repairing some of that trust and that both
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: men and women have lost in each other. And it
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: could help reduce that reach and that pool and a
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: lot of that sort of you know, if if you
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: have people that aren't on social media, this is something
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: a gen z is. Even from what I've heard, they're
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: they're rejecting, you know, they're they're they're buying dumb phones again.
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: Because they don't want They're they're tired of the doom scroll,
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: they're tired of watching everyone else is highlight reel. They
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: don't necessarily want that stuff as much. So I don't
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: necessarily see dowry as being something that they would go for,
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: but something like that might be in line with where
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: the next generation is headed.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: I think that's a start, for sure. I think that
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: it's a start.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: But the hmm I was gonna say, the challenge is that, Yeah,
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: I think that's a start. I think that it will
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: be you know, you'll have to like understand that even
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: if you vet you're not you know, you're not going to.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: Bat a thousand.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Now. The other thing too, is that, like I've noticed,
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: I've looked at some some data on this. So we
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: were talking earlier, I attend an Orthodox church, and that
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: there was a study done like we've talked about in
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: the show, where they interviewed gen Z men and women,
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: and you know, this is obviously not a comprehensive, but
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: it's like it was a pretty decent sized study and
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: I think it's worth looking at and ask them essentially
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: for the top ten. I don't have it in front
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: of me, but it was like the top ten priorities
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: and goals that they have, and young men's top three
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: things were like, you know, children, a wife, well, a wife, children,
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: and you know, a job that they enjoy, so like
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: a job that's satisfying, a wife and children, And then
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: they all make it makes sense because they all come together, right, like,
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: you have a good job that you like, then you'll
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: be able to support a family, which is what you want.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: So those so men wanted a family. It was right
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: at the top. I think I actually have something about
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: that here. Let me just take a look, and yeah,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: so gen Z guys ranked marriage and kids way higher
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: thirty four percent put having children as the top for
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: what they how they would define success in their life
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: twenty nine percent. Marriage and women. They had financial independence
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: way at the top, So they wanted they wanted financial independence,
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: And this mismatch is part of the issue. But I
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: also think, and this is maybe I'm a little bit
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: too optimistic, but I do think that despite the fact
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: that I said all of this, this sort of like
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: world we're living under is sort of like a low
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: resolution feminist worldview that everyone is sort of internalized. I
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: do you think it's actually pretty fragile and it's not real.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: It's something that we're like they were holding on too,
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: because we were told.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: It was real.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: But I think that when you let it go, it
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: kind of falls away. And the way I know that
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: this is somewhat true is that when you when you
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: look at what women say they want versus what they
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: what they respond to, I.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: Think those things are very different.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: So a woman will say, you know, I want to
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: make get that bag, and I want to make money,
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: and I don't really want to get married or I
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: want to have kids.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: But if when you put a baby in.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: Their hand and like you say, hey, hold my baby, right, yeah,
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: they will change like that. Like, women are are more
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: prone to propaganda than men, and I think that they're
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: they're trying to hold onto something that isn't real because
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: they're trying to seek approval from their peers like the
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: other one around them. And I'm seeing that, like men
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: are just more honest about what they want. So I
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: think that's why this disparity, like where men are saying
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: I want I want a wife and kids and a job,
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: and women are saying I want money.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: They're not even saying they want a job. By the way,
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: they're just saying.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: They want money, but like why do they want money? Like,
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: when you break it down, they're looking for security and
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: that's what money gives them. So yeah, yeah and freedom too.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So I mean I think there's yeah, that's
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: that that is an interesting point. Yeah, I think it
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: does go back to that sort of story that we
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: see ourselves in and I think that that's going to
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: be if if anything prevents us from being able to
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: let go of it, it's going to be that That
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: seems to be the thing that most most people struggle with.
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: That's the thing that men struggle with in terms of
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: letting go with the blue pill, is there's a lot
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: of emotional satisfaction that we can draw from that story,
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: and that makes it so oftentimes it's really hard to
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: let it go. I didn't want to for the longest time.
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: Reality kind of had to, like, you know, punch me
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: in the face and really assert itself to get me
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: to drop that. And I think that there's a similar
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: thing that goes on with women where they they do
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: believe those stories that feminists have told, that sort of unconscious,
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: unspoken story that if you don't have that financial independence,
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: you won't be worth as much as men. So when
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: guys like us come in and say that, well, men
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: need to be leaders, they need to be the ones,
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: you know, that are actually making the consequential decisions, because
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: they're going to take the consequences. What women hear you
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: say is that you can't be as valuable as men,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: And that is an incredibly powerful narrative to internalize. And
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: so that's why I think that that's why I go
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: so hard against that particular underlying feminist power narrative is
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: it's like, if you want, if you're gonna get women
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: to sort of drop that, you're gonna need both reality
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: to tell them, but you're also going to need to
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: dispel that narrative as a whole because a lot of times,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: by the time women, uh really, by the time reality
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: asserts itself strongly enough in her life, she's well into
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: her thirties or a forties, and she might be past
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: having time to have where she can have those kids.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: So yeah, it's it is a it is an interesting
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: question to tackle, and I don't know that any of
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: us have really come up with a a you know,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: silver bullet solution for any of it. Yet.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well there is one thing I've been thinking about
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: and let you let me know what you think about this.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: So I do think that women respond to like their environment. Okay,
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: so like if they're around like you know, let's say
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: they're not in a friend group per se, but like
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: they have like they go to work, they have like
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: you know, men that they're dating on hinge or whatever
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: on dating apps, but they're not like friends with them,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: and they're watching a lot of like consuming.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: A lot of media. You know, they watched TV.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: I remember back in like way back when I was
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: very young, I went on a date with a girl
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: that worked in the same building as me, and we
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: went to see a movie and afterwards I want to
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: talk to her about the movie, and she had nothing
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: to say, like no conversation.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: She was beautiful, which is why I asked her out.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: She was gorgeous, but when I tried to like find
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: out what kind of person was, there was nothing there.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: And I was like, so what do you do with
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: your time? I watched TV? So and I'm not saying
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: this is all women, but I think that if it's
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: just like I've always said that men need spaces where
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: they can and spend time with other men, Yeah, just
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: like hanging out and maybe like just having conversations and
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: just being with their their like other men without women
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: involved at all, because women all to the dynamic. I
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: think in the same way, women should also be in
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: space with other women, but like women that are you know,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: mothers with their children things like that, because I think
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: that if women are around that environment and they see it,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: I think it will actually like potentially get them thinking
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: about this in a way that isn't based on these
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: like untruths, right, Because again, like I'm not saying that
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: everyone has to be a mom, but what I'm saying
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: is that if you're gonna make that decision Number One,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: you have to do it early because you can't like
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: wait until you're like in your thirties, because you're you're
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: putting your children at risk.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: Like potential children. Number two, you know, you should be
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: exposed to what the truth is and not what you're
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: told because if you again, if you're just watching TV,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: you're seeing like you know, girl bosses and single women
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: and all you're seeing that over and over sort of
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: poured onto you, and so you're going to say, well,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: I guess that's how I should live. Even though that's
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: not really what you want.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: I think that people should have the freedom to choose
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: their life, but they should be informed, like be well
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: informed on what that means, so that you're not doing
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: something dumb at least something that you'll regret, is what
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: I should say, right, And so that it could be
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: that I think, like, I don't know what you think
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: about that, but I think women spending time with other
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: women that are like sort of leading by example, I
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: think could be a good thing.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: You know, yeah, for sure. And I think that's that's
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: one of the reasons why, you know, as as we're
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: looking towards like structures that we can build new you know,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: Christian spaces, new churches, things like that, I think it
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: would be important to incentivize women to get off of
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: social media as much as possible. And that is something
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: that you truly do have to incentivize. You can't like
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: you can't mandate it or force it. But what you
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: can do is, you know, like I was saying, you
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: could create a structure where you say, hey, we've got
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: some really high quality men that we've vetted, but you
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: don't get to have access to these men unless you're
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: willing to set down social media and because and be
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: clear that like, hey, this stuff is not worth what
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: you're giving up for it, Like that world that is
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: not real. Reality is the people around you. It's the
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: people that you actually interact with in real life. And
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: I think that you're absolutely right that women will respond
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: to whatever inputs are coming at them the most. If
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 3: the inputs they're receiving are online, if it's on Netflix
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: or whatever it may be, whatever they're reading.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: Or social media, women who runs it right? Yeah?
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that then that will that will do what. So
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: there's this idea that John Mark Comer talks about. He's
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: a he's a pastor or Christian author. He says that
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: spiritual formation isn't done by stuff that you hear every
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: once in a while. So just hearing one sermon from
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: a pastor every once in a while telling you, hey, ladies,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: you should do this. That will not form your spirit.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: That will not form who you end up being as
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: a person. The stuff that you hear on repeat and
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: the stuff that you do on repeat, that is what
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: forms you as a person. And so if you can
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: incentivize women to get out of those rhythms of constantly
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: doom scrolling and consuming media. That's that's programming them to
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: believe things that aren't true and aren't real, and get
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: them out in real life with real people where they're
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: repeatedly practicing interactions with real people and other real women
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: who are who are thriving. And that's that's another part
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: of it is you'll need to get these women in
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: close proximity to other women who are thriving in a
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: better way than what society has told them is you know,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: the best way for them. Mm hmm.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: But on the one other thing, we're we'll quote for
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: another ten minutes and then I'll have to quit to
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: pick up my wife. I told her I'll be late
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: because of the technical issues we're having. So in terms
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: of like church attendance, and I know this is like
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: not relevant, but I think it's interesting because it sort
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: of tells you where things are moving. I noticed that,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: of course, across the board, church attendants is a little
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: bit down, has been going down, you know, like steadily,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: but gen Z has seen like a bit of a surge.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: In particular, gen Z men have been returning to church.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: Over sixty percent of US Orthodox Christians are now men,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: compared to like forty six percent across other Christian denominations,
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: but it was still like close to half, but it's
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: a little over And the reason apparently, or at least
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: that there's a lot of like online, you know, conversations
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: like online buzz about Orthodoxy. I converted because of Jonathan Pagot,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: who's basically like a more interested in the storytelling aspect
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: But then you also have guys.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: Like Andrew Wilson, who's like, you know, orthodox Christian, been
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: pushing this stuff. Rachel Wilson who's wrote written a book
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: on feminism, which I've read, a very good book about
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: the occult history of feminism. And also you have like
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Catholic guys like Timothy Gordon, and they're basically as opposed
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: to say guys like you know, conservative guys like Matt Wallash,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: for example, we have said just get married anyway, like
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: you know, just jump into the meat grinder. Maybe you'll
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: come out okay on the other side. And I get
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: why he's saying that, but we I don't think that,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Like I don't think that just because you find you're
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: a woman in a church, you're going to be that
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: much better off than like a secular woman. Unfortunately, it's
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: like maybe your chances are slightly better, but it's that
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: the issue is is that we're not addressing this or
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: at least talking about this.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: In an honest way.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: And so I think that that's the reason why guys
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: are getting into it, And the reason is that there
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: they want something that they want to meet someone who's
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: like really righteous and really let's say moral as a
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: woman and got and has their stuff together, and it's
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: probably like a little bit more removed from like the
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: online space and stuff. Like at my church, the girls
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: get married very very young and they start having kids
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: right away, but.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: They're not online.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: So it's almost like, I don't want to say amish,
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: but it's like, you know, they're very like removed from modernity,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: so that men are definitely going that way.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Prager as well. For sure.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: All of the sort of online people that are like
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: you know, sort of talking about Christianity and when the
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: topic of like you know, marriage comes up and all
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: the problems with it, they seem to be like completely unequipped,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: and so they just say, guys, just do it anyways, right,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: And of course men are responding to that.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: I say, no, I'm not doing that. I'm gonna I'm.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: Gonna go where people understand the problem and we'll at
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: least try to fix it. And I think that's why
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: there's a big surge of men in particular in in Orthodoxy.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: I think this's gonna create a problem though later on,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: because if there are more men than women there, then
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: well it might create the same effect where you get
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: the women there are gonna pick from e They're gonna
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: be hypergamus, they're gonna pick the best of those men,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: and they're gonna be men who are disinformed.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I don't know that we that we're seeing
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: a long term solution at the moment. I mean some
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: more nuance on some of that data. From what I
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: can tell a couple of things to it. One is
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: that if you look at least at least as some
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: of the graphs that I've seen, if you break it
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: down by race, most of the the the gen Z
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: people that men especially that are coming into the church
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: are not white. The number of of white men that
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: are coming into Christianity is stayed roughly flat or are
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: coming in or staying Christian And if you couple that
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: with the amount of you know, sort of mass immigration
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: that we had under Biden administration from countries that are
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: typically more religious than ours. It could it could be
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: that we're seeing young people come to.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: And stuff.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and from South America where you're seeing more Catholics
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: and things like that. So it could be something where
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: you're seeing it's It might be that we're both experiencing
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: young people coming to Christianity, but also it could be
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: that we're importing a bunch of them. I don't know
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: for sure what's going on there. Another interesting piece of
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: the data is the retention rates. We're not really as
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: far as I can tell, seeing the retention rates have improved.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: There's and the one of the things that that I've
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: I've I've been seeing in the data for a while
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: is actually there there was a there's an article I
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: saw from a Christian source that was claiming that, you know,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: young people gen z are coming back to church. I was,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: you know, reading basically this headline saying basically that same thing.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: It showed a graph of you know, the church attendance
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: and it was basically like young people, there's this bit
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: of a bump, there's a dip at the twenty five
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: to thirty five age range, and then it goes back
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 3: up as it gets older. And it was from I
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 3: think last year, two, three years ago, something like that.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: And I realized, I've seen that shape before, and so
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: I went to my bookcase, the one that's read behind
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: me right there. I pulled out a book called You
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: Lost Me that was written in twenty eleven, and there's
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: a graph in there. You know, flipped through it and
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: I found that graph and it's the exact same shape.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: So the idea that there's this bump in the younger
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: ages in the demographic data does not automatically suggest that
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: young people are coming back. David Kineman, the head of
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: the Barnar Research Group who wrote that book, The conclusion
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: he came to because the data he was using was
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: stretched all the way back to nineteen ninety eight. He
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: used data from a twelve year period and it was
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: consistent over that time and it still is consistent today
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 3: the data. What the conclusion he came to isn't that
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 3: young people are coming back to faith. It's that this
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: just shows us what age they leave. And yes, you
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: are seeing some more men. I think it is true
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: that we're seeing some men come into the church because
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: we're making them a really good promise, like we're promising
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: them a really good deal. We're sort of advertising it like, hey,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: there's this feminist, crazy world out there that's totally dangerous,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: and if you come in here, we're safe. We don't
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: have those problems. You'll find a good woman who's not
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: going to treat you like any of that stuff. But
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: what I'm seeing is that, you know, kind of what
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: to your point, kind of as you were suggesting, a
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: lot of that is assumption based thinking. We don't ever
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: actually check Christian women's behavior to find out for sure
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: if our women are the better women that we think.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: And so what I think we're going to see and
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: can see as we have been seeing it, we're going
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: to continue to see, is that if there is an increase,
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: it's more like that we have a bucket full of
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: water and there's a hole in the bottom and we're
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: just pouring water into the top and we haven't we
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: haven't done anything to fix the hole in the bottom,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 3: which is the way that men pay so that we
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: make this great promise and lots of them come in
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: saying hey, but but then they show up and they
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: find that, wait, these churches actually favor women just as
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: much as the secular organization's outside. Right, They're pummeling me
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: for every detail that I get wrong, and the ladies
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: get to go scott free for everything they do. You know,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: sermon after sermon, I'm the one that's at fault for everything,
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: every bad thing. I'm the one that needs to repent.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: The ladies. It's all grace. You know. The ladies aren't
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 3: held accountable, But I am. They seeing a thing after
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: thing where the favoritism looks exactly the same as the
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: world outside. And eventually, like you're saying, I think we
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: will start to see a bit more of that disenfranchisement.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 3: And a lot of the guys who watch my channel,
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 3: is it that is? Who?
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: Who? That is?
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: Those guys like it's already happening. Those guys already exist.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: And yeah, So I don't think that the solution is
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: just better propaganda and better advertisement. I think the solution
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: is to plug the whole at the bottom of the
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 3: bucket and fix the problems that have been driving men
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 3: out for the last four decades in the first place.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: I think that men are like you said, it is
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: encouraging that they're going. But I do think that if
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: we're gonna have them stay, you know, which I think
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: they want to. Then, yeah, they have to feel like
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: they're going that they're going to get something out of it.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: I guess I don't mean to make it sound so transactional,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: but or you bring it.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: Back to just trust. Yeah, that's the idea that I'm
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: aiming for anyway, as I tried to figure out how
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: to solve these problems.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: Anyway, Yeah, yeah, what do you think about this? I've
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: heard this argument from people who have claimed that this
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: is as a Christian solution. Actually, and I'm again, I'm
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: not an apologist. I don't, I don't, I wouldn't. I'm
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: not a theologian. So I'm just saying this as a layman.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: I've been told that the only way to fix this
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: is for men to heal the soul of Adam, so
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: that that they have to heal the soul of Adam
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: sin because Adam sin in the garden was that he
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: blamed Eve instead of taking responsibility or essentially for you know,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: I don't know, like he didn't he he passed the buck.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: When God approach them in the garden.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: And so I get told that adam soul has to
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: heal and my my first thought is to say, well,
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, but Eve also screwed up too.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: But but yeah, so what do you what do you do?
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: Have you ever heard this before?
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I have not heard that before. I have to
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 3: say I don't. I'm racking my brain for any kind
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: of scriptures that would confirm that idea or suggest that idea.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: It sounds like it's pinging in my brain as kind
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 3: of a cultish kind of idea.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: It sounds like just another way to blame men also.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah, it could be that too.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: But it sounds like they're they're using spiritual sounding language
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 3: or Bible flavored language. But I to to make it
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: feel like it's something that Christians should should believe. But
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: I can't think of any scripture that would agree with that. Again,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: men can't repent on behalf of women. Scripture makes that
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: abundantly clear, especially in the New Testament. Now I understand
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 3: there's there's you know, there's some nuance to the theology
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: as far as like when Eve took the apple. It
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: the scripture does not say that Eve sinned first. It
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 3: does say that it was Adam's sin, and so there's
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 3: some debate as to precisely what that means and the level.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 3: But again, if anything, that's more of an argument that
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 3: men needs to be in charge, because that was the
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: first I mean, probably the better. If you're going to
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: go that route, probably the thing you would have to
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 3: say then is that men's original sin was abdicating authority
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 3: and responsibility to women and not actually taking control of
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 3: the situation when he should have, like because apparently he
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: was standing right there or he was close by that
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 3: many commentators theorize at least that he watched it happen
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 3: and sort of just let it happen. And so they
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: theorized that Adam's original sin was not stepping in and
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 3: taking control and saying Eve no, and like actually exerting
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: his authority to tell her not to do what she
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 3: was doing. But that's more of a case for men
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 3: to like, you know, actually be leaders and actually you know,
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 3: have exercise authority over women. So yeah, I don't know
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: if men are going to If men need to repent,
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: it's repenting of handing over authority and leverage and the
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: decision making spot to women. So I'm not sure how
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 3: I would follow that logic to where they're getting at.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: And I think that the person that where I've heard
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: this what they were trying to refute, I guess, And
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: it was an argument I never made, was that when
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: people talk about the Adam and Eve in the Fall,
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: the most common version of events is that Eve did
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: it and Adam and Eve both suffered for her mistake.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: But that's not true. They both did something wrong, but
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, like the order or the specifics of that. Yeah,
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: I think that that's still being sort of debated and
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: tossed around. But I think that, like the the issue
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: is that, like in popular culture, we have sort of
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: internalized this idea that it's all Eve's fault and Adam
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: just takes the fall with her. But the from my understanding,
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: at least before I talked to you, was that, you know,
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: Eve ate of the fruit.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: We don't even know it's an apple, we just say apples.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she ate of the fruit to basically listen to
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: the serpent ate of the fruit, and then went to
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: Adam and offered him the fruit and he took it,
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: so that was his mistake. But then God confronted them
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: and Adam said, well, she she made me do it,
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: so he basically gave her.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: Ultimate like authority over what he did.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: He made himself into a victim of her manipulation, and God,
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: of course God was like, well, you know your mistake
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: was you didn't just say look I did that. My bad, right,
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: And so like in that sense, I think it makes
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: sense because then you have a kind of like, you know,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: an inversion of the natural order where the man's following
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: the instructions of the woman and it leads to the fall.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: And I think that there's it's suggested in there.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: And I know that doesn't that's not like a very
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: like PC thing to say these days, but it seems
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: like that's how that happened. Of course, you know, Jesus
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: is the new atom and and he forgives us for
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: all of that. But this is like the thing that
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: I think people miss is that I don't really subscribe
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: to the idea that everything is Eave's fault. I think
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: that Adam did. He did allow this to happen in
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: a way. So and this atom was like the original
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: simp basically like in a way.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 3: Right, So yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like we see echoes
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 3: of what's happening today all the way back at the
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 3: very beginning. And that's why I think a lot of
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: it is if you want to solve this, we have
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 3: to go back to the beginning and go back to
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 3: first principles and base and you know, start taking up
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 3: that role as men, especially for for men who are
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 3: are in leadership spaces and churches, to hold both men
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 3: and women accountable and you know, protect each other from
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 3: each other's sins and they're evil. And until we start
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 3: doing that, yeah, I'm not, I'm not. I don't think
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 3: we're gonna see much much of an improvement. I know
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 3: you got to go really quick, but before before you do,
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 3: I just I just want to put it to whoever's
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: watching that that likes as far as where my channel
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: is at right now. That is what we're moving towards,
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: is we're looking for ways that we can you know,
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 3: sort of two pronged attack on this one is we
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: want to get guys together and get them into groups
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: so that they can go to church leadership at their
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 3: own church if they if they like the place that
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 3: they are, but they see this stuff happening, it's never
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 3: gonna work for guys to just go alone and try
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 3: to talk to their church's leadership. About it. It's too
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: easy for guys to get dismissed. So what we're trying
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 3: to do is get guys tools and ways that they
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 3: can gather up together and start having these conversations with
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 3: leaders at their own churches. But also we're trying to
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: build something that helps helps guys who aren't in that
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: space or they don't feel like that that's going to
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 3: be productive. We're just going to try to build new
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 3: spaces from the ground up, new Christian spaces where like,
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 3: as you're saying, men can be around men without you know,
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 3: women interfering in it, but also planting essentially new churches
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 3: that don't have any of these like that just don't
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 3: have any of this stuff in them and that are
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 3: you know, built from the ground up with that sense of, hey,
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: we follow what scripture says to the best of our abilities.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: We're going to try to remove as much cultural narrative
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 3: as we possibly can, get back to basics and administer
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 3: things in a way that's just so that we're so
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: that men and women can find relief from each other's
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 3: sin and they can get back to trust and building
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 3: positive relations again. So if that's something that any of
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: anybody watching is interested in subscribe to my channel. I'll
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 3: be talking about it a lot more, and I'd love
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 3: to get as many people as I can moving in
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: that direction and put people to work and actually building
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: those things. So yeah, sorry, it's a little shameless plug
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: for me.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: Oh no, it's okay. The channels called Effective Purpose. I
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: put links in the description to all of your places,
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: including your YouTube channel, so you guys can check it out.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: And one last thing I would put to you, Matt,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: I would like to see you have conversations.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: With some of these like you know, bigger.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: I guess they're bigger, these other channels that are more
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: you know, like focused on like apology, but also talking
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: about like the men's issue stuff, because I do think
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: that more people on the right in particular are waking
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: up to the issue.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: I remember I mentioned Matt Walsh a little while ago.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: He said, you know, we haven't done a good job of, like,
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: you know, addressing the issues of family courts and all
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: these other things, which is like a large obstacle that
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: men who want to get married. And I know that
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: not all men want to get married, and I know
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: that not all men want to have kids. I'm not
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: talking to you guys, but I'm not the ones that do.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: They are not encouraged to do that if there are
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: so many incentives against that, disincentives for them and incentives
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: for women to you know, divorce them, take half their stuff, whatever.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: And so they're at least starting to talk about it.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: But if that conversation is going to take place, and
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: I want, I want people involved in it that are
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: actually going to be like, you know, very let's say,
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: more informed and at least like open to like talking about,
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: you know, the various descriptive things that I think that
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of people on the right find distasteful that
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: often come out of the manisphere of the red pill,
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And that's something that I'm I'm trying to
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 3: I agree, there's a decent amount of people that I
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: would like to talk to about it. I'm trying to
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 3: be kind of judicious and wise about it. There's I'm
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 3: discovering that there are some people in some of these
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: that it looks like it's not going to be a
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 3: productive conversation. I'm sure people would enjoy it because you know,
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 3: there'd be plenty of sparks flying. It would get you know,
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 3: it would it would you know, tickle the elephant, and
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: It wouldn't be the most productive.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, wouldn't be productive. I'm looking for people in those
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: spaces that I can have productive conversations with, and I'm
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: always open to that if people are willing to have
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 3: those conversation. It's a good faith. So yeah, if you
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: run into any people in that space and you think
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 3: that that'd be a good conversation to have, I mean,
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: totally passed along to me and I'd love to have
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 3: them on.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll totally host it. Okay, Well, thank you, Matt.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: Sorry about all the technical issues. Yes, we got so
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: I really got to wrap it up here, guys, but
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: thank you for coming on the show and checking this out.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: I you know, I know that this isn't like our
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: normal kind of content because a little bit more theological,
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: but there are lots of men who the Christian men
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: are men too, and so yeah, I wanna I think
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: that these are important convers and I'd like to see
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: what you guys think about these and the comments, So
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: leave us a comment on this video. I'll leave the
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: one that exploded online because at the beginning of that
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: was still pretty solid. But we'll just have two videos
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: up whatever, and I've recorded this one too so we
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: can get some clips out of it.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: But thanks guys for coming on the stream.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: If you guys like this video, please hit like subscribe
• 1:25:24
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• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: let me know what you guys think about what we
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: talked about in the show today, and please please please
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: share this video because Sharon's caring. Thank you guys so
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: much for coming on today's episode of The Fireside Chat,
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: and we will talk to you guys in the next one.