Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: The NXIVM Sex Cult Scandal: Getting Sucked In (With Survivor Sarah Edmondson)

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Killer Thriller: The NXIVM Sex Cult Scandal: Getting Sucked In (With Survivor Sarah Edmondson) · Legally Brunette

0:06
Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your
0:10
Speaker 1: host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone, Lisa Donovan here back with
0:16
Speaker 1: the new episode of Killer Thriller Today. Oh boy, am
0:21
Speaker 1: I excited about my guest today? Today we are going
0:24
Speaker 1: to step into the real story behind a dramatization that
0:28
Speaker 1: still leaves a mark. Escaping the Nexium cult, a mother's
0:32
Speaker 1: fight to save her daughter. So Nexium presented itself as
0:36
Speaker 1: a coaching and mentorship program, but authorities later described it
0:41
Speaker 1: as a cult like organization tied to sex trafficking, exploitation,
0:46
Speaker 1: and manipulation, and its one time leader, Keith Raniery, is
0:49
Speaker 1: now serving one hundred and twenty years in federal prison.
0:54
Speaker 1: Our guest today is Sarah Edmondson. Sarah is extraordinary as
0:59
Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned. She spent more than a decade
1:02
Speaker 1: in Nexim. She rose from student to coach. She ran
1:06
Speaker 1: and opened and ran an Nexium center in Vancouver, and
1:10
Speaker 1: then was later recruited into a secret sorority group quote
1:14
Speaker 1: unquote with Nexium called Doss where women were branded and
1:19
Speaker 1: they were being groomed to have sex with the leader.
1:23
Speaker 1: After leaving Nexim, Sarah made the decision to go public,
1:27
Speaker 1: and she became one of the first insiders to blow
1:29
Speaker 1: the whistle on this group, and she helped to expose
1:33
Speaker 1: a system that prosecutors later described as criminal, coercive, and exploitative.
1:38
Speaker 1: She chronicled her experience in her twenty nineteen books Scarred.
1:42
Speaker 1: I cannot wait to speak with Sarah about her experiences
1:46
Speaker 1: inside Nexium and what she is doing. Now, let's bring
1:50
Speaker 1: Sarah on. Welcome, Sarah Edmundson. I'm just really honored to
1:55
Speaker 1: talk with you because I remember when I first read
1:59
Speaker 1: the New York Times article and I had this like
2:03
Speaker 1: download feeling in my whole body of like, holy cow,
2:08
Speaker 1: this woman, like this is her life's purpose now, like
2:11
Speaker 1: she is supposed to do this, because it's a very
2:15
Speaker 1: unique position. In my opinion. You tell me if I'm
2:19
Speaker 1: wrong that you hold, which is you're incredibly articulate, you're
2:26
Speaker 1: very smart, You're very self aware, and as soon as
2:28
Speaker 1: you realized that things were really sideways, you like made
2:34
Speaker 1: that shift and went no, no, no, no no, and
2:37
Speaker 1: immediately tried to not only extricate yourself but take responsibility
2:43
Speaker 1: and accountability. I just think all of those things are
2:45
Speaker 1: really impressive and miraculous and It's like you answered sort
2:51
Speaker 1: of the call of your life, whether it was what
2:54
Speaker 1: you were wanted it to be or not.
2:56
Speaker 2: I appreciate you saying that it certainly was not what
2:59
Speaker 2: I planned, but it was definitely, you know, kind of ironic,
3:03
Speaker 2: especially because I joined Nexium to figure out my purpose.
3:06
Speaker 3: So right, you know, it was you got to be
3:09
Speaker 3: really clearer.
3:10
Speaker 2: But when you ask for things, right, I got to
3:14
Speaker 2: write I want to figure out my purpose.
3:16
Speaker 3: All right, well, okay, here we go.
3:18
Speaker 2: But yeah, I appreciate it. That's very kind words. And
3:21
Speaker 2: I had no idea that even that article would have,
3:24
Speaker 2: you know, the impact that it did.
3:26
Speaker 1: Yes, So let's talk about In twenty nineteen, you published
3:31
Speaker 1: a book about your experience. It's called Scarred, The True
3:34
Speaker 1: Story of How I Escape Nexium, the cult that bound
3:37
Speaker 1: in my life, And we are definitely going to get
3:40
Speaker 1: into that. But the same year, the Naxium story was
3:43
Speaker 1: dramatized in the eighty film Escaping the Nexium Culled a
3:47
Speaker 1: mother's fight to save her daughter, which that film centers
3:51
Speaker 1: on Catherine Oxenberg's fight to get her daughter India out. So, first,
3:57
Speaker 1: have you seen the movie? Do you remember it and
4:00
Speaker 1: do you think it's accurate.
4:03
Speaker 3: So a couple of things.
4:04
Speaker 2: I feel like need to be careful because I'm super
4:07
Speaker 2: grateful to all the films that I did back when
4:10
Speaker 2: I was acting with Lifetime, and they've always treated me
4:13
Speaker 2: very well. However I felt and not however, and this
4:19
Speaker 2: was a very hard film to watch. No granted, I
4:22
Speaker 2: will say I was not in the best place. My
4:24
Speaker 2: scard had just come out, and I was on a
4:26
Speaker 2: book tour and I didn't know it at the time,
4:28
Speaker 2: but I was having an adverse reaction to some sleeping.
4:30
Speaker 3: Medication and I was spiraling.
4:33
Speaker 2: And I think it was also in combination with the
4:36
Speaker 2: stress of doing like rapid press, like entertainment tonight, and
4:42
Speaker 2: all the things that I was running around and doing
4:45
Speaker 2: and not being super grounded.
4:47
Speaker 3: I had a six week no six months old, I
4:50
Speaker 3: had a new baby.
4:50
Speaker 2: I was dealing with postpartum stuff, and I was emotionally
4:54
Speaker 2: like kind of rocked.
4:55
Speaker 3: And I didn't know it at the time that I
4:57
Speaker 3: was dealing with those things.
4:58
Speaker 1: I just thought it was so just the fact of
5:00
Speaker 1: what you're talking about in the press tour, like I
5:03
Speaker 1: would imagine, it's like you're still healing from it and
5:07
Speaker 1: processing in different ways and that's a lot.
5:11
Speaker 3: It was a lot. I was dealing with a lot.
5:12
Speaker 2: And this is two years, you know, two and a
5:14
Speaker 2: bit years out. I thought I was healed, like and
5:18
Speaker 2: I was doing I would done. I was quite well
5:21
Speaker 2: when I was pregnant with Ace. Is just after the
5:24
Speaker 2: postpartum and the book tour and all those things. So anyway,
5:26
Speaker 2: but the series care the movie came out in that
5:30
Speaker 2: time for me, So I want to preface it that
5:32
Speaker 2: I'm viewing it through that filter. So I did not
5:36
Speaker 2: enjoy watching it. I just found it like grossly inaccurate.
5:43
Speaker 2: I mean, just the fact that keithrin Ay was played
5:47
Speaker 2: by a handsome charism problem yeah, right with be like
5:53
Speaker 2: Peter Peter Falconi.
5:54
Speaker 1: I think his name was Fastionelle, Yes, but Fationelle.
5:57
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right, fation I didn't know who he was.
6:00
Speaker 3: He's very handsome. Keith was not handsome.
6:02
Speaker 2: Like there's just like that's bad cast.
6:04
Speaker 3: Like the casting was so bad.
6:07
Speaker 2: Whoever cast, I'm sorry, you didn't do your research and
6:10
Speaker 2: it was not would not have been hard to research properly.
6:14
Speaker 3: And I don't know why Catherine.
6:15
Speaker 2: Who was there and met Keith and met Nancy and
6:19
Speaker 2: produced it if I recall, like why she wouldn't steer
6:23
Speaker 2: them in the right direction. We've never talked about that.
6:25
Speaker 2: But Nancy Salzman was also played very like a school marm,
6:31
Speaker 2: like a strict kind of like Ira call, very sort
6:34
Speaker 2: of stoic and no, you're not doing it right, Versus
6:38
Speaker 2: Nancy is like expressive and she's away top to the
6:41
Speaker 2: point that people are uncomfortable with her level of expression,
6:44
Speaker 2: like Hi, I'm right, welcome to executive success.
6:48
Speaker 3: You know.
6:49
Speaker 1: That's what's big freaked me out. Was very big, very
6:52
Speaker 1: big yes.
6:53
Speaker 2: And if you were, by the way, the little tangent, if
6:55
Speaker 2: you were to ever express that in class, which people did,
6:59
Speaker 2: they would say and sometimes even preempted it, that some
7:02
Speaker 2: people who had issues with her level of expression were
7:06
Speaker 2: probably suppressive and because or had suppression or had expression issues,
7:12
Speaker 2: like you know, so you learned to not say that.
7:15
Speaker 1: This is one of the things that I'm sure will
7:18
Speaker 1: come up a million times as we're talking. But I
7:21
Speaker 1: was so struck by it's in essence. The entire philosophy
7:26
Speaker 1: or what it turns into certainly is really a lesson
7:30
Speaker 1: in how to deny your instincts. And it's like this
7:35
Speaker 1: inversion twisting of that, you know of instead of saying
7:42
Speaker 1: it's just so manipulative. It's so manipulative.
7:46
Speaker 3: And of course there was somebody playing playing you.
7:48
Speaker 1: That's what I was going to ask, Yeah, do you
7:50
Speaker 1: remember that at all?
7:51
Speaker 2: Well, she looked completely unhinged, which was really Yeah, she
7:57
Speaker 2: was just like like folk crazy.
8:00
Speaker 3: I was like, I got branded, like I don't.
8:02
Speaker 2: Oh boy, right, certainly there was a time when I
8:06
Speaker 2: was kind of unhinged when I was figuring things out,
8:09
Speaker 2: but I don't I when I heard that this was
8:12
Speaker 2: being made, I offered to say, like, if any if
8:14
Speaker 2: the actress wants to talk to me, I'm happy to
8:16
Speaker 2: talk to her, give her my book.
8:18
Speaker 3: None of that.
8:18
Speaker 2: He did it.
8:19
Speaker 3: No, they didn't, which is.
8:21
Speaker 2: Also weird because you know, Catherine's involved and she's got
8:23
Speaker 2: my number, and like, I don't.
8:25
Speaker 1: Know, that is strange. I do think that's strange because
8:28
Speaker 1: I was going to say, you know, with especially with
8:32
Speaker 1: Lifetime a Ney, these like oftentimes these movies happen very quickly,
8:36
Speaker 1: so maybe they don't like have the time to talk
8:38
Speaker 1: to people or whatever. But in that circumstance, because Catherine
8:43
Speaker 1: clearly knew you and India knew you, it does seem odd.
8:46
Speaker 3: That they wouldn't It does seem odd.
8:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean the whole the whole thing is strange. Also,
8:52
Speaker 2: you know, and I thought of this when you were
8:53
Speaker 2: talking about the Murdoch murders, which by the way, I
8:56
Speaker 2: don't know anything about because it's not cult related and
8:58
Speaker 2: I don't have the bandwidth.
9:00
Speaker 3: So I have to go and watch that show.
9:02
Speaker 2: But so good, it's on my list now, so thank
9:05
Speaker 2: you for that. But I remember you saying like these
9:07
Speaker 2: people are alive, like they're they're playing people or.
9:10
Speaker 3: It's some of them.
9:10
Speaker 2: Sorry, I know some people are not, but there are
9:12
Speaker 2: characters that are being portrayed who are out there in
9:15
Speaker 2: the world. And that's you know, when they make a
9:18
Speaker 2: movie like that, do.
9:19
Speaker 1: You have a responsibility?
9:21
Speaker 2: Is the responsibility and you should like maybe's see what
9:24
Speaker 2: they how they talk or how they express and they's
9:26
Speaker 2: got a lot of things wrong, Like I think they
9:28
Speaker 2: had the wrong sash color on Bonnie, which nobody would
9:31
Speaker 2: notice or care, but for any of us watching would
9:34
Speaker 2: be like, right.
9:35
Speaker 3: Not a green sash, He's an orange sash whatever, all.
9:38
Speaker 2: That stupid stuff. Right, But oh sorry, I tangented. I'm
9:42
Speaker 2: highly caffeinated. Bear with me because of what you said
9:46
Speaker 2: about Murdoch. I was thinking, you know, this is this
9:49
Speaker 2: is the story told from India's perspective, And India's story
9:53
Speaker 2: is very different than my story, and it's very different
9:56
Speaker 2: than even Alison Max's.
9:57
Speaker 3: Story, even though they overlap.
9:58
Speaker 2: And there's so many other women that you don't even
10:01
Speaker 2: know about and that I don't even know about, Like
10:04
Speaker 2: there's sure huge body counts. So I'm watching it from
10:08
Speaker 2: the perspective of like, well, that didn't happen to me.
10:09
Speaker 2: That didn't happen to me. I know that happened to India.
10:13
Speaker 2: Did it happen that way? No, the way that it
10:16
Speaker 2: was written, the way that like the Keith character propositioned
10:21
Speaker 2: the India character, that's not how it happens. It's not
10:25
Speaker 2: that wasn't accurate, like it it wasn't like, hey, do
10:27
Speaker 2: you want to sleep with me and then I'll get
10:28
Speaker 2: I'm gonna give you a brand, you know, like No.
10:30
Speaker 1: Right, that seems like a very simplified version of things,
10:34
Speaker 1: which I think is almost you know, dangerous to sort
10:39
Speaker 1: of just everything because especially certainly which we we will
10:44
Speaker 1: certainly get into your you know, the work that you're
10:48
Speaker 1: doing now to kind of help people not fall into
10:51
Speaker 1: those sorts of traps and things. But it feels like
10:54
Speaker 1: to kind of simplify something in that way. Then someone
10:57
Speaker 1: would watch it and say, well, I would never do that,
10:59
Speaker 1: you know exactly that I'd never be that foolish or
11:02
Speaker 1: that naive, which is the opposite of the vow for
11:06
Speaker 1: us yes, which I just I had a sort of
11:11
Speaker 1: I learned about Nexium because, believe it or not, at
11:15
Speaker 1: the time in twenty sixteen, I had signed with this
11:17
Speaker 1: new manager and I looked who her clients were, and
11:21
Speaker 1: the most prominent client was Alison Mack, and I was like, oh, wow,
11:25
Speaker 1: I don't know. Like I thought I should know Allison
11:28
Speaker 1: because we were sort of in the same circles, but
11:30
Speaker 1: I didn't know her. I knew a couple of other
11:32
Speaker 1: people on Smallville, but I didn't know her. And then
11:35
Speaker 1: I was like and I thought, well, this is a
11:36
Speaker 1: great parallel bo like, you know, actresses on TV in
11:39
Speaker 1: the nineties and maybe like reinventing their careers or something.
11:43
Speaker 1: And then I looked and I was like, wesh, she
11:45
Speaker 1: hasn't really worked. And then I googled her and I
11:48
Speaker 1: find this like interview that she's sitting across from this
11:53
Speaker 1: man who looks like he is brainwashing her, and I
11:56
Speaker 1: was like, what is this? And that's how I sort
11:58
Speaker 1: of like it came. And then I just became obsessed,
12:02
Speaker 1: like what is going on with this person? That's why
12:07
Speaker 1: I just rewatched the Vow and I just like I
12:10
Speaker 1: wonder was that a was it at all healing for
12:14
Speaker 1: you guys while you were doing it, or did it
12:16
Speaker 1: just feel like this is a mission we have to
12:19
Speaker 1: you know, like tell me what that experience was like hmm.
12:22
Speaker 2: It was probably different at different times because we shot
12:24
Speaker 2: The Vow like start to finish over a couple of.
12:27
Speaker 3: Years, So, oh, you did it, okay, Okay, Yeah, But I.
12:30
Speaker 2: Would say that there was a time at the beginning
12:33
Speaker 2: when like you know, we didn't know it was going
12:35
Speaker 2: to be The Vowed and I was going to be
12:36
Speaker 2: a documentary in HBO. We didn't know the millions of
12:39
Speaker 2: people would watch it drink COVID. We were filming it
12:42
Speaker 2: partly for protection so that if if right, you know,
12:47
Speaker 2: the Bramfond lawyers were to come after us saying, yeah,
12:49
Speaker 2: we're warning people. We're not trying to like dismantle like
12:53
Speaker 2: it's not you can't do torture's interference or whatever it's called.
12:55
Speaker 2: This is us warning people about criminal activity.
13:00
Speaker 3: You know.
13:01
Speaker 2: There was that element, and then there was we just
13:04
Speaker 2: need to document, like we don't know what, we don't
13:06
Speaker 2: know what's going to happen, to document everything. And then
13:09
Speaker 2: we realized we had something very you know, special on
13:13
Speaker 2: our hands. As it became like as we were further
13:16
Speaker 2: away from it, and that's when you know, different you know,
13:21
Speaker 2: production companies were swooping in and different offers were on
13:24
Speaker 2: the table. That's when I actually also had a lifetime
13:27
Speaker 2: offer somewhere before that other the lifetime movie was made,
13:31
Speaker 2: and we were just like, but that's not the route
13:33
Speaker 2: I wanted to go, you know, with this with this story.
13:37
Speaker 3: And we you know, we took.
13:38
Speaker 2: Meetings and met people, and ultimately we really trusted the
13:43
Speaker 2: filmmakers hardly because I don't know, if you know this,
13:45
Speaker 2: Johan had taken the director had had taken curriculum.
13:50
Speaker 1: Oh yes, I read that right, Yes, yeah, So we
13:53
Speaker 1: knew her.
13:53
Speaker 2: We trusted her, and she was in a training in
13:58
Speaker 2: La with Mark Vicente as he was like waking up,
14:03
Speaker 2: and she was the first one to be like, I
14:05
Speaker 2: think we should just film thisst was just throw a
14:08
Speaker 2: camera on you as you deconstruct your last twelve thirteen years.
14:12
Speaker 3: So and that's the right question. I think, like in
14:17
Speaker 3: most part it was.
14:18
Speaker 2: It was healing because we were connected as a team
14:21
Speaker 2: and we weren't alone, so that was good. There was
14:24
Speaker 2: some strife, you know, there was a time and many
14:27
Speaker 2: times when Nippy was like, I'm done. I don't want
14:29
Speaker 2: to I don't want to do this, I don't.
14:30
Speaker 1: Want to do the series, like I don't know.
14:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, just he just don't want to be He's justn't.
14:35
Speaker 2: His line had always been I don't want my trauma
14:37
Speaker 2: to be other people's entertainment understandable. Yeah, and I understood that,
14:42
Speaker 2: and then I was also like this is important, though,
14:44
Speaker 2: but we didn't know how important.
14:46
Speaker 3: And then ultimately, you know, we're all.
14:48
Speaker 2: We're just also happy with how it it turned out
14:51
Speaker 2: and the impacts.
14:52
Speaker 1: It's extraordinary. It's incredibly well made, and it's informative and
14:56
Speaker 1: it's Yes, it is I don't know if entertaining is
14:59
Speaker 1: the right word. It is compelling, I would say compelling. Yeah,
15:18
Speaker 1: So let's talk about your actual specific story. So you
15:22
Speaker 1: joined Next Him in two thousand and five, Yes, and
15:25
Speaker 1: it was presented as a personal and professional development company.
15:30
Speaker 1: So what were you looking for at that time in
15:32
Speaker 1: your life or what did you feel like you were
15:34
Speaker 1: missing that that interested you.
15:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there was things that I
15:40
Speaker 2: was cognizant that I was looking for, and then there
15:43
Speaker 2: was things that I was not aware of, And even
15:46
Speaker 2: to this day, I kind of get new layers of,
15:48
Speaker 2: you know, the underpinnings of subconscious things that were driving me.
15:51
Speaker 3: But I think the main.
15:52
Speaker 2: Thing that I was consciously aware of is that I
15:55
Speaker 2: wasn't where I thought I should be as an actress.
15:58
Speaker 2: Is I'm sure you know who's an actress? Caner late too.
16:00
Speaker 2: At certain times you're like looking at Frenzy going the well,
16:02
Speaker 2: they have this, and.
16:03
Speaker 3: I'm not there and I should be there.
16:05
Speaker 2: But at the same time I was, even though technically
16:08
Speaker 2: I was a working actor at the time, I wasn't
16:11
Speaker 2: feeling fulfilled. And and so friends booking work and being
16:17
Speaker 2: way more successful than me, and they weren't fulfilled.
16:20
Speaker 1: This is the funny thing I think that a lot
16:22
Speaker 1: of people don't get about entertainment, that sometimes it's such
16:26
Speaker 1: a fickle business and it's so difficult, and it's very
16:30
Speaker 1: rare that we get all the things, meaning like you
16:34
Speaker 1: get a job that pays you well, that is fulfilling
16:36
Speaker 1: you creatively, and then you get into this weird place
16:40
Speaker 1: of you. It's always competitive because it's so fickle. It's
16:43
Speaker 1: a hard life that I feel like is We're always
16:50
Speaker 1: going like is it me? What could I be doing?
16:53
Speaker 1: Like why am I not getting.
16:56
Speaker 3: X, Y and Z one hundred percent?
16:58
Speaker 2: All of that strife and then inner turboil mixed with
17:01
Speaker 2: like I was twenty sixth tring twenty seven, so that's
17:04
Speaker 2: kind of a pivotal age looking for my purpose, wondering
17:09
Speaker 2: if acting was the purpose, and also community, like I
17:14
Speaker 2: felt like the acting community of Vancouver, while it has
17:17
Speaker 2: definitely was very positive in some ways, I also was
17:21
Speaker 2: caddy and didn't really feel like that, you know, those
17:23
Speaker 2: were my peoples looking for you know, looking for people belonging.
17:28
Speaker 2: And then I think emotionally, things I wasn't aware of
17:30
Speaker 2: at the time was how much that that belonging desire
17:35
Speaker 2: was rooted.
17:36
Speaker 3: And like, you know, I wasn't popular growing up.
17:38
Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of close friends in high school,
17:41
Speaker 2: so there was sort of like that layer and then
17:43
Speaker 2: also layers of that I think are very common of
17:47
Speaker 2: like I wanted to feel special and feel valuable, and
17:50
Speaker 2: you know that was something that was very much dangled
17:53
Speaker 2: and given to me to keep me going after I
17:56
Speaker 2: got involved. But I think like all of those things
17:59
Speaker 2: were perfect storm. And it's actually something that we talk
18:03
Speaker 2: about now when we have people along a little bit
18:05
Speaker 2: culty is figuring out what was going on for you
18:08
Speaker 2: when you joined emotionally physically. What we call situational vulnerability
18:12
Speaker 2: is like a lot of people join when they're I'm
18:14
Speaker 2: at a crossroads, new new town, new career, post divorce,
18:19
Speaker 2: and they're feeling lonely or looking for answers or looking
18:21
Speaker 2: for structure.
18:22
Speaker 3: Oh that was something I didn't I miss.
18:23
Speaker 2: I was raised like culturally Jewish, atheist, celebrating Christmas, you know,
18:31
Speaker 2: like so it was everything, Yeah, a bit of a
18:35
Speaker 2: hodge hodgepodge, like with the with the candle for on
18:38
Speaker 2: the manora, had a Christmas tree, had a Buddha in
18:41
Speaker 2: my bedside table, like I had a lot of things.
18:43
Speaker 2: And so I think that I lacked like an internal
18:46
Speaker 2: structure of you know a lot of people have when
18:50
Speaker 2: they grew up in a religious context. I didn't have
18:52
Speaker 2: that in it, but I kind of.
18:54
Speaker 1: Got singular grounding, like a yeah, a real you know
19:00
Speaker 1: so word I'm looking for like a post a real like.
19:04
Speaker 3: You're like a guidebook on how to live, you know
19:06
Speaker 3: like that.
19:06
Speaker 2: And I really do feel like nextim offered me that
19:08
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, this is this is it,
19:10
Speaker 2: this is everything, the secrets to life, and I was
19:15
Speaker 2: I didn't I wasn't aware that I was looking for that,
19:16
Speaker 2: but I feel like when it was given to me,
19:18
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, relieved.
19:20
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that every anyone can identify with that
19:24
Speaker 1: feeling of I was just my in talking to my
19:28
Speaker 1: producers before we started. I thought about this moment for
19:32
Speaker 1: myself because you know, I think everybody does need to
19:34
Speaker 1: think about is it possible? Like could I how? Cause
19:39
Speaker 1: you don't walk into this place going I can't wait
19:41
Speaker 1: to join a cull like I'm looking for a cult?
19:43
Speaker 1: Are you guys open? You know it's not what people
19:46
Speaker 1: are doing. And I remember I was maybe twenty in
19:50
Speaker 1: New York City, had been going in for this play
19:53
Speaker 1: at Lincoln Center. Very big deal for me, and I
19:56
Speaker 1: have like six or seven weeks of auditions. It's very prompt.
20:00
Speaker 1: Theater director Robert Falls It was an Eric Bogosian play.
20:02
Speaker 1: I was like ecstatic, and I thought, oh my god,
20:05
Speaker 1: I'm getting this job. You know, like, I'm getting this job.
20:08
Speaker 1: It's going to be the first really big thing I do.
20:12
Speaker 1: I go in for the final callback and I leave
20:15
Speaker 1: Lincoln Center and immediately they tell me I did. My
20:17
Speaker 1: agent calls is like, you didn't get the job. I
20:20
Speaker 1: was beside myself, right and I'm there, I am. I'm
20:23
Speaker 1: like crying in the street. I get on the subway
20:26
Speaker 1: to go back downtown to my apartment, and this lovely
20:29
Speaker 1: woman walks up to me. I was I think twenty
20:33
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty, and she was probably thirty, and she was
20:36
Speaker 1: just like, are you okay? And I said I'm not,
20:41
Speaker 1: and I just like I was so taken it back
20:43
Speaker 1: that she was so kind, and I kept crying and
20:46
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I'm I'm okay. I'm just I'm
20:48
Speaker 1: just really frustrated.
20:50
Speaker 3: You know.
20:51
Speaker 1: And she put her hand on me and said, you know,
20:53
Speaker 1: I'd love to help you. I'd love to have you
20:55
Speaker 1: come come join us. We've got a great community. And
20:58
Speaker 1: she gives me a Scientology flyer, and I thankfully knew
21:03
Speaker 1: someone who had gotten wrapped in Scientology already, and I
21:06
Speaker 1: like looked at her and I was like, sister, like,
21:08
Speaker 1: that's not going to help me, you know. And if
21:11
Speaker 1: I hadn't known, if I hadn't actually known someone who
21:16
Speaker 1: already had sort of been, you know, tantalized by that organization,
21:23
Speaker 1: I don't I think I would have just been like,
21:25
Speaker 1: I'd love to have a coffee, you know, like, yeah,
21:28
Speaker 1: I'd love to talk with you because I'm broken right now,
21:32
Speaker 1: you know.
21:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.
21:34
Speaker 2: That's such a great example of a situational vulnerability right place,
21:38
Speaker 2: right time. And for most people, they they're not.
21:42
Speaker 3: They might brush up.
21:42
Speaker 2: Against somebody like that, like a random recruiter, but they're
21:46
Speaker 2: not in a moment of brokenness.
21:48
Speaker 3: Right or the other way around.
21:50
Speaker 2: They're in a moment of brokenness and they don't cross
21:52
Speaker 2: paths with the recruiter. But for everybody else, it's just
21:56
Speaker 2: that that magic perfect storm, perfect storm.
22:00
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the main characters here again, because
22:04
Speaker 1: I know who this is, but maybe some people don't.
22:08
Speaker 1: The leader who's Keith R. Nieri, and he, you know,
22:12
Speaker 1: he's portrayed as being charismatic and very persuasive and clearly manipulative.
22:19
Speaker 1: I've heard many women describe him and I correct me.
22:24
Speaker 1: I think you as well when you first met him
22:27
Speaker 1: that you know, he was a little creepy or a
22:29
Speaker 1: little weird. And you know, so what was your first
22:33
Speaker 1: experience with him, and if it was that, how did
22:36
Speaker 1: you kind of brush that instinct aside?
22:41
Speaker 2: I believe it was at volleyball, and actually there's a
22:43
Speaker 2: little clip of it, I think in the vow where
22:47
Speaker 2: we're talking at volleyball. I believe that was the first time.
22:50
Speaker 2: So we've been in two thousandmmer of two thousand and five,
22:52
Speaker 2: and I had a great respect for him because of
22:55
Speaker 2: all the growth I thought I was achieving in xt CM,
22:58
Speaker 2: so I had him on a bit of a pedestal.
22:59
Speaker 2: But when I met him, I mean he's so he's
23:01
Speaker 2: very short, yeah right, he's like five, like maybe an
23:05
Speaker 2: inchur too taller than me and five four. He's kind
23:08
Speaker 2: of stocky, and he was, you know, wearing knee pads
23:10
Speaker 2: and that at that time, it was before his grand makeover,
23:13
Speaker 2: and he was very straggly who looked at a bit
23:16
Speaker 2: of a like Jesus vibe.
23:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know that changed.
23:20
Speaker 1: He looked like a little mushroom. That's what I thought, Yeah, mushroom.
23:23
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I like that Nippy called him him. My
23:25
Speaker 2: husband called him a dirty laundry bag. But that's better,
23:29
Speaker 2: that's way better. That's his mushroom in a dirty laundry bag.
23:33
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I you know, I remember thinking
23:35
Speaker 2: that he just seemed like a normal, nerdy, schlubby dude,
23:40
Speaker 2: is what I thought. And in fact, later as I
23:44
Speaker 2: would come to watch him do money forums and speaking,
23:47
Speaker 2: Nancy would always introduce him, and then she would come
23:49
Speaker 2: on stage afterwards and be like, you know, who's seeing
23:53
Speaker 2: Vanguard for the first time, and some because there was
23:55
Speaker 2: a new people right like, and they raise their hands,
23:57
Speaker 2: and she would ask him to say them to say
24:00
Speaker 2: what they thought, and somebody would always say like, hey,
24:03
Speaker 2: it just seems so like normal, I guess, And then
24:06
Speaker 2: she would say, isn't that amazing that he's able to
24:08
Speaker 2: bring himself to our level so he's approachable and like
24:11
Speaker 2: get into rapport with us, Like that's you know, what
24:14
Speaker 2: a twist.
24:15
Speaker 1: What a twist. But so this is my question, like,
24:19
Speaker 1: at what point do you see, Okay, they're talking about
24:24
Speaker 1: this man as if he is a deity, as if
24:27
Speaker 1: he is a god in some way, and that immediately
24:30
Speaker 1: sounds like something is out of sorts here, like when
24:34
Speaker 1: when did you sort of So I've also read that
24:37
Speaker 1: people that the five day is maybe you can't like
24:41
Speaker 1: that's like sort of one of the first things people do,
24:44
Speaker 1: or you can write it's like a seminar for five days.
24:47
Speaker 1: And I heard read several people saying, you know, wait
24:51
Speaker 1: until the third day and then something really changes. And
24:54
Speaker 1: to me that says, just wait until you let yourself
24:58
Speaker 1: be a little bit brainwashed and and then you'll get it.
25:01
Speaker 3: Yeah.
25:01
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And that was set to me in my first
25:03
Speaker 2: few days. That was very resistant and had so many
25:07
Speaker 2: red flags.
25:07
Speaker 3: But A, I couldn't get my money back.
25:09
Speaker 2: B I wanted part of me wanted to please Mark
25:12
Speaker 2: and work with Mark, and you know, Mark was my point.
25:15
Speaker 3: He was my point personally.
25:16
Speaker 2: I didn't know anybody else in the training of my
25:18
Speaker 2: boyfriend at the time, and I was on the phone
25:19
Speaker 2: with him and he's like, I know, it's weird. I
25:21
Speaker 2: thought it was weird too, just you know, stick stick
25:25
Speaker 2: with it.
25:25
Speaker 3: Third day.
25:26
Speaker 2: So A, I'm opened that the third day is going
25:28
Speaker 2: to be mind blowing, mind blowing.
25:30
Speaker 3: But I also didn't know.
25:31
Speaker 2: That you can basically replace people's you know, fundamental belief
25:35
Speaker 2: system if they're open in like two or three days.
25:38
Speaker 3: I didn't know this at the time. I didn't know
25:40
Speaker 3: anything about.
25:40
Speaker 2: Indoctrination or experts called mind control, brainwashing, whatever you want
25:46
Speaker 2: to call it. I think my big first shift was
25:49
Speaker 2: on the third day. It is set that the five
25:52
Speaker 2: day was set up for that to to like have
25:54
Speaker 2: foundational concepts Monday, Tuesday, first and second day, and then
25:58
Speaker 2: the middle day. You know, if people were open and
26:01
Speaker 2: they were doing the process, they would have some big
26:04
Speaker 2: AHAs about their life. But by day five I was like,
26:08
Speaker 2: this is amazing. I want all my friends to do it.
26:10
Speaker 3: I mean I was. I was a zelot by day five.
26:14
Speaker 3: I always recruited. Yeah, wow, Yeah, I had no doubts.
26:19
Speaker 2: I had no doubts like at that point other than like,
26:22
Speaker 2: you know, the sashes were a bit tacky. It didn't
26:24
Speaker 2: like the parasuits, Nancy's eyebrows are weird.
26:26
Speaker 3: Like there's things I didn't like.
26:29
Speaker 1: Well, it's really funny how we can or one can
26:33
Speaker 1: take all these things again. Like it feels like this
26:35
Speaker 1: systematic breaking down of your instincts right rather, it's like
26:40
Speaker 1: telling you your instincts are wrong, Like you can see
26:43
Speaker 1: all these things that you find a little bit strange
26:47
Speaker 1: or not important or even oppressive, but you sort of
26:51
Speaker 1: will just like let it go by.
26:54
Speaker 3: Yes, you let it go by.
26:55
Speaker 2: And part of it is that there's this element of like,
26:59
Speaker 2: you know, if you go to someone house and they say,
27:01
Speaker 2: we take off our shoes here, and you're wearing like
27:03
Speaker 2: cute boots that go with your outfit, you're like, oh,
27:05
Speaker 2: that's annoying, but like it's their house, so you take
27:07
Speaker 2: off their shoes.
27:09
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's such a good example.
27:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yeah, So that's so much of what the
27:13
Speaker 2: first few days were like, and they brilliantly were very
27:18
Speaker 2: clear that you know, we're here to get our money's worth,
27:21
Speaker 2: we're here to grow, we're here to.
27:22
Speaker 3: Look at our stuff. You know, let's you might as well,
27:25
Speaker 3: And it's totally normal.
27:26
Speaker 2: Like in therapy, if you're looking at yourself, it's uncomfortable
27:29
Speaker 2: and you're going to feel uncomfortable.
27:30
Speaker 3: So when you feel.
27:31
Speaker 2: Uncomfortable and we just we're just talking about things, we're
27:33
Speaker 2: just putting.
27:33
Speaker 3: This piece of fabric around your neck.
27:35
Speaker 2: If you can't talk about that, then like you know,
27:39
Speaker 2: clearly there's something internally going on.
27:40
Speaker 3: We're going to look at it. If you leave, we'll
27:42
Speaker 3: never look at it.
27:43
Speaker 2: And so if you're uncomfortable, we ask you to sit
27:46
Speaker 2: and work through it and figure out what it is.
27:48
Speaker 2: And by the way, if you're uncomfortable with the sashes,
27:51
Speaker 2: you're probably have some suppressive, suppressive issues. You don't like
27:55
Speaker 2: to patritute for what people have built before you. You
27:57
Speaker 2: might be a bit envious, and those are things we
27:59
Speaker 2: need to work through so that you learned to kind
28:01
Speaker 2: of like, well, I don't want to be that, So
28:03
Speaker 2: sashes are fine, right, things like that, right.
28:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, like questioning all of your thoughts, which again is
28:10
Speaker 1: this it's such a manipulation, like a bastardization of being
28:15
Speaker 1: self questioning and self reflective, you know, which are great
28:19
Speaker 1: qualities to have, and this is just such a manipulation
28:23
Speaker 1: of it. Okay, so you're going along with all of this,
28:41
Speaker 1: and you became very successful in this organization in terms
28:44
Speaker 1: of meaning you were you climbed up the ladder, and
28:48
Speaker 1: you were financially successful and brought other people into this.
28:53
Speaker 1: So what did you know because so much of what
28:57
Speaker 1: everyone says is like, oh, you know, we were doing
29:00
Speaker 1: all these great things for everyone, and everyone was so successful.
29:04
Speaker 1: But what did that really look like because you had
29:08
Speaker 1: were you did you decide I don't want to be
29:10
Speaker 1: an actress anymore? Were you still pursuing other things in
29:13
Speaker 1: your life? And was this what did the success quote
29:16
Speaker 1: unquote look like at that time, at the at the
29:19
Speaker 1: height for you of positivity.
29:22
Speaker 2: There was different stages my first few years, my first
29:25
Speaker 2: four years, I actually wasn't making money. I was just
29:28
Speaker 2: taking classes and I saw results very quickly in my acting.
29:32
Speaker 2: I was still acting for the first while. I got
29:34
Speaker 2: an independent film.
29:36
Speaker 1: That was interesting. Okay, so that was.
29:38
Speaker 2: Really cool because I always wanted to go to Toronto Film
29:41
Speaker 2: International Film Festival.
29:42
Speaker 3: Who those who don't know who Tiff is? There is
29:44
Speaker 3: who did?
29:45
Speaker 1: Sorry, yeah, those who don't. It's a great festival. It's
29:47
Speaker 1: a very well respected international festival.
29:51
Speaker 2: Yes, and that was super exciting. But I actually one
29:55
Speaker 2: of the first things I did with the tools. I
29:58
Speaker 2: say that in air quotes if anyone's not watching, because
30:01
Speaker 2: that's just what we called it, is work on my
30:03
Speaker 2: audition terms because that was something that I felt very
30:05
Speaker 2: limited by. I got very out of body and not
30:09
Speaker 2: present when I auditioned, and I couldn't control it. And
30:11
Speaker 2: that was the first thing I worked on and I
30:13
Speaker 2: got results, and so I was booking more. But then
30:17
Speaker 2: I hit a point after about four or five years
30:19
Speaker 2: when I did start to make money, and it was
30:23
Speaker 2: starting to be in conflict with my auditions and doing movies.
30:27
Speaker 2: And I had a small recurring role and one calls
30:31
Speaker 2: the Heart, and it was like in conflict with all
30:32
Speaker 2: these other projects I was doing with Next Team, and
30:34
Speaker 2: I kind of feel like I had to make a decision.
30:36
Speaker 2: But at the same time, it was it was never
30:40
Speaker 2: told to me.
30:40
Speaker 3: Like you have to quit acting.
30:41
Speaker 2: It was more just like I knew that this was
30:43
Speaker 2: important to me and that I couldn't really do both.
30:45
Speaker 3: And also, you know.
30:46
Speaker 2: What's more important helping people out in the world and
30:50
Speaker 2: their life and you know, changing the world one person
30:52
Speaker 2: at a time and perhaps creating a world, creating world
30:55
Speaker 2: peace or a Hallmark movie.
30:57
Speaker 1: You know. So I totally get that quandary, right, Yes.
31:02
Speaker 2: So if I mean, if it was what it was
31:04
Speaker 2: supposed to be, then I feel like I made the
31:06
Speaker 2: right decision, and it was, but it was a lie,
31:08
Speaker 2: so that was a bad decision. But at the time
31:11
Speaker 2: I felt very clear that this was more important, and.
31:15
Speaker 3: My acting started to go off to the wayside. So
31:19
Speaker 3: when I went to answer your to.
31:20
Speaker 2: Your question, though, I was kind of the poster child.
31:23
Speaker 2: I think because I had such a big network in
31:25
Speaker 2: Vancouver and I brought so many people in and they
31:27
Speaker 2: in turn brought so many people in, and I was
31:29
Speaker 2: in charge of the center.
31:30
Speaker 3: I now was.
31:32
Speaker 2: Making money and didn't feel like I didn't have the
31:36
Speaker 2: same pull towards acting because I was my my purpose.
31:39
Speaker 3: Cup was feeling fulfilled.
31:41
Speaker 2: Yes, in terms of success, like I sold my Honda
31:44
Speaker 2: Civic and bought a brand new Mini Cooper and convertible,
31:47
Speaker 2: and I was like, I have a new car, I
31:49
Speaker 2: was able to purchase my first home, Like there was
31:52
Speaker 2: material financial success that was proof.
31:55
Speaker 3: And also like I was happier. I would I thought
31:58
Speaker 3: I was happier. I thought I was happier.
31:59
Speaker 1: I was. That's right, because you're actually feeling productive, like
32:02
Speaker 1: you've created something, You've done something on your own agency
32:06
Speaker 1: over certain things in your life. And yes, so at that,
32:11
Speaker 1: at what point did DOS be? So for people who
32:15
Speaker 1: don't know DOS is it's essentially it translates into dominance
32:22
Speaker 1: over your slave or master over slave women. Is that right?
32:26
Speaker 3: And nobody really knows?
32:27
Speaker 1: Nobody knows, but it's described as a secret sisterhood.
32:31
Speaker 2: Yes, but I just had a thought before we get
32:34
Speaker 2: into that. When you're asking about what success looked like,
32:36
Speaker 2: I also have to say that it was at the peak,
32:40
Speaker 2: like peak Nexium before things got weird, which was like
32:42
Speaker 2: sort of the.
32:43
Speaker 3: Last four years, the middle four years.
32:45
Speaker 2: Was there for twelve you know. There was also like
32:48
Speaker 2: we were you know, we were head open to a
32:49
Speaker 2: center in la We were down in Las Veelas and
32:53
Speaker 2: like Lindsay Lohem's former home, we were I was looking
32:56
Speaker 2: on a private jet to Alaska.
32:58
Speaker 3: It was glamorous, and.
33:00
Speaker 2: I was helping people, like we legitimately felt like we
33:04
Speaker 2: were helping people.
33:05
Speaker 3: And I still do to this day believe that the
33:07
Speaker 3: five day.
33:07
Speaker 2: Training, if it was taught by people who had good
33:10
Speaker 2: intentions like Keith and Nancy weren't in the room, could
33:13
Speaker 2: be transformative for people if they were wanting to look
33:17
Speaker 2: at their lives and have some you know, dig into
33:20
Speaker 2: their psyche and look at things that they could take
33:23
Speaker 2: more responsibility for and like you said, feel more autonomous
33:25
Speaker 2: and have better communication. Like all those things were great.
33:27
Speaker 2: It was like jam pack therapy. Mm hm.
33:30
Speaker 3: That's great in and of itself.
33:32
Speaker 2: Is great, but in there it's also tools for future abuse.
33:35
Speaker 2: Just have to make this caveat if people were to continue.
33:38
Speaker 1: Right right, And there are a lot of origins. I mean,
33:41
Speaker 1: I think of there was something called the Forum that
33:43
Speaker 1: was you know, landmark for like all of those things
33:47
Speaker 1: that you know there are elements that can be very
33:50
Speaker 1: useful and very helpful, but then the like leaning on
33:55
Speaker 1: those things and thinking you can't function without them and
33:57
Speaker 1: then turning like it becomes a little bit of a
34:00
Speaker 1: shady area until it completely exact spirals.
34:05
Speaker 2: And the Landmark Form, which I know is huge in LA,
34:09
Speaker 2: was always our competitor there because interesting landmark And I
34:13
Speaker 2: was like, no, that's like the McDonald's of personal growth,
34:15
Speaker 2: and we're the Garlet Food of personal growth. Yes, so
34:17
Speaker 2: you have private jets, Yeah, we have private jets.
34:20
Speaker 3: We're very fancy. But it's the same thing.
34:24
Speaker 2: And we've since done lots of deep dives on a
34:27
Speaker 2: little bit culty. It's Landmark form is like nexium light
34:30
Speaker 2: and it's all the same stuff. And like just as
34:33
Speaker 2: an example, so people, this is like a red flag
34:36
Speaker 2: teaching moment, you know, teaching people for example like personal
34:39
Speaker 2: responsibility vac same data, the form, did it. Yes, it's
34:43
Speaker 2: great something happens in your life instead of victimizing yourself.
34:46
Speaker 3: Okay, what's my part in this?
34:48
Speaker 1: What did I not know that I know?
34:50
Speaker 3: Now?
34:50
Speaker 2: What would I do differently? That's a huge pivotal perception shift.
34:54
Speaker 2: If somebody doesn't have that, great Now if they continue
34:57
Speaker 2: and they make one of the things I always say,
35:00
Speaker 2: I was.
35:00
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, go do that.
35:01
Speaker 2: Take the tools, put them in your life. Don't make
35:04
Speaker 2: the tools your life. Don't dedicate yourself fully, which is
35:07
Speaker 2: my mistake, Like if I think of it, just done
35:08
Speaker 2: a little bit of nexim and then going back to acting.
35:10
Speaker 2: I mean, God, who knows where I'd be now, I
35:12
Speaker 2: have no idea. I can't think about that.
35:14
Speaker 3: I'll be depressed.
35:15
Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, Yes, you're invited into this sisterhood by
35:21
Speaker 1: Laurence Falsman, who is not only your bridesmaids, who is
35:24
Speaker 1: a very dear friend, Nancy, who is the co head
35:28
Speaker 1: with Keith. It's her daughter. So you obviously respect her
35:32
Speaker 1: and love her and tell me about that how that happened?
35:37
Speaker 3: And yeah, I.
35:39
Speaker 2: Mean that part of the story is so complicated and complex,
35:44
Speaker 2: and one of the reasons why I wrote s guard
35:45
Speaker 2: is so that it would be in order even to
35:48
Speaker 2: this day, I like where there's a civil case and
35:51
Speaker 2: they were asking me questions, I'm like, I don't even remember.
35:53
Speaker 2: I had to go back to the book, like, oh no,
35:55
Speaker 2: this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened,
35:58
Speaker 2: and then this happened. Because there's a lot of stuff
36:00
Speaker 2: regarding blackmail, they called it collateral gathering.
36:05
Speaker 1: You know, this is what I want to talk about,
36:07
Speaker 1: the collateral. I want to talk with collateral because I
36:09
Speaker 1: also heard Keith out of his I just love also
36:12
Speaker 1: that he's such an egomaniac that he wanted himself recorded
36:19
Speaker 1: all the time, Like thank goodness, there is tape of
36:22
Speaker 1: him saying that commitment has to be collateralized. That statement
36:27
Speaker 1: in and of itself is totally insane in my opinion,
36:31
Speaker 1: because that means that your own word doesn't mean anything,
36:35
Speaker 1: like it's not enough, or your commitment to yourself or
36:38
Speaker 1: your believe yourself is not enough. So talk to us
36:41
Speaker 1: about the collateral en doss specifically, yeah.
36:46
Speaker 3: And collateralization.
36:49
Speaker 2: It's like when you just said what Keith said, like that,
36:52
Speaker 2: I know it's insane, but it's also totally that would
36:55
Speaker 2: have been totally normal because we'd been doing collateral related
36:58
Speaker 2: things for at least three to four years before DOS
37:01
Speaker 2: was even introduced. So when people hear about DOS and
37:04
Speaker 2: how it's explained, they'd be like, well, why would you
37:07
Speaker 2: do that?
37:07
Speaker 3: Like that's so dumb.
37:09
Speaker 2: But everything that was a part of it was kind
37:11
Speaker 2: of already in the framework of what we believed and
37:16
Speaker 2: also so, oh man, this is so complicated.
37:18
Speaker 3: But basically.
37:20
Speaker 2: She invited me to join a secret society, but before
37:23
Speaker 2: she even told me what it was, I had to
37:25
Speaker 2: give her collateral to.
37:28
Speaker 3: Back up my word that I would never speak about it.
37:30
Speaker 3: So it was it'd be.
37:31
Speaker 1: Secret, And you didn't think that that was extreme or weird.
37:36
Speaker 2: I mean, it was extreme, but it wasn't weird. I
37:38
Speaker 2: guess I was like, nobody had ever done anything like
37:41
Speaker 2: that with me. And also I guess part of it
37:45
Speaker 2: for me is that all the stuff that had everything
37:49
Speaker 2: had become a bit more amped up collateral. People were
37:51
Speaker 2: doing penance, which is a religious thing, which I wasn't
37:55
Speaker 2: raised religious, so I didn't know that that's something that
37:58
Speaker 2: people did like in real life, in their realige, and like,
38:00
Speaker 2: I'm going to do a penance for the sin or whatever,
38:02
Speaker 2: so very Catholic of his raised Catholic, very Catholic. Yeah,
38:06
Speaker 2: so people were doing things like oh, I said I
38:08
Speaker 2: wasn't going to eat chocolate, and I did, and so
38:11
Speaker 2: now I'm going to plank in the snow at three
38:13
Speaker 2: am for ten minutes.
38:15
Speaker 1: Like right, it's amazing that this is all Keith driven. Right,
38:20
Speaker 1: that he's telling people and then via via I'm sure
38:23
Speaker 1: that the women and then in turn told one another.
38:28
Speaker 1: But I read something where he said there was a
38:31
Speaker 1: woman that was harming herself, engaging in self harm, and
38:36
Speaker 1: she came to him and he said, you know, you what,
38:41
Speaker 1: what's what commitment do you have to stop doing this?
38:43
Speaker 1: And she, you know, said that she was going to
38:46
Speaker 1: stop or something, and he said, well that that commitment
38:49
Speaker 1: isn't sufficiently important enough, so we're going to have to
38:54
Speaker 1: do something more. And then it's like weight control, and
38:59
Speaker 1: which is the whole. I mean, as a former anorexic,
39:02
Speaker 1: I this is like red flags up the yin yang
39:04
Speaker 1: for me, especially if a man is telling you what's
39:09
Speaker 1: your weight? How are you? You know? Sorry, I'm stepping
39:12
Speaker 1: on you because I'm like I can't get I can't
39:15
Speaker 1: just like I can't believe some of this.
39:18
Speaker 3: It's terrible.
39:18
Speaker 2: It's terrible, and just the quick sidebar like I definitely,
39:23
Speaker 2: I think in retrospect, was like orthorexic at certain times,
39:27
Speaker 2: you know, and was obsessed. But I never counted calories
39:29
Speaker 2: and I never barfed, and I and I but every
39:33
Speaker 2: time I went to Albany, everyone was so focused on
39:35
Speaker 2: being thin and like you know, weighing their food or
39:38
Speaker 2: doing different diets.
39:40
Speaker 3: And I always thought that it was weird.
39:41
Speaker 2: I had no idea Keith was instructing them.
39:44
Speaker 1: Because you obviously you're you. You can't think properly when
39:48
Speaker 1: you are deprived of nutrition, So that's a part of it, right,
39:52
Speaker 1: Like you can't think, and it becomes obsessive about any
39:56
Speaker 1: particular thing, whether it's raised, weighing the food or what
39:59
Speaker 1: you are aren't eating like all of those things. It
40:02
Speaker 1: just it's a mind control and it dominates everything. And
40:06
Speaker 1: then it's just easier for you to be impressionable, you know,
40:11
Speaker 1: and to want to please him. So what was the
40:15
Speaker 1: So you are invited to join this by Lauren and
40:19
Speaker 1: you had to give her collateral? What is the collateral
40:22
Speaker 1: that you had to give her?
40:24
Speaker 2: The first collateral I gave her was written confession about
40:29
Speaker 2: like things that I wouldn't want the public to know,
40:31
Speaker 2: like things I'd done in my twenties. And I wrote
40:33
Speaker 2: it down and then she took a picture and said
40:35
Speaker 2: it to someone and told me it wasn't bad enough,
40:36
Speaker 2: wasn't like detrimental enough.
40:39
Speaker 3: So I and I was like, well, I.
40:40
Speaker 2: Have a good girl of a pretty clean record other
40:43
Speaker 2: than those few things. Maybe just wouldn't want my parents
40:46
Speaker 2: to know, uh kind of thing, although my mom pretty
40:49
Speaker 2: much knows everything in my life.
40:51
Speaker 3: Anyway, And so I had to embellish it.
40:53
Speaker 2: And so I wrote something worse with lies that she
40:56
Speaker 2: doesn't even have to be true.
40:57
Speaker 3: It's just something that.
40:58
Speaker 2: I'm going to hold so that you'll know that you'll
41:00
Speaker 2: never speak of, thank god, I know.
41:04
Speaker 3: So yeah, and I felt very.
41:05
Speaker 2: Uncomfortable and I told her that, and she said that's perfect,
41:08
Speaker 2: that's the point, right, Yeah, you want to feel uncomfortable
41:10
Speaker 2: to make sure that you would never, you know, break
41:12
Speaker 2: your word, right, And and then she told me about it,
41:17
Speaker 2: and there was all these there's all these steps and
41:20
Speaker 2: I can't recall the order she told me, but it
41:22
Speaker 2: was like she definitely set it up in a way
41:24
Speaker 2: that there was elements of it that were exciting.
41:26
Speaker 3: It was a badass boot camp for women.
41:28
Speaker 2: It was going to be a group of women and
41:29
Speaker 2: we're going to you know, work on our goals in
41:32
Speaker 2: a much more higher level of accountability and checking in
41:35
Speaker 2: than we ever have with Nexium. It's just women, women only,
41:39
Speaker 2: and some people are in Nextium, some are not. It's
41:42
Speaker 2: not like tied to it at all. And it's like,
41:45
Speaker 2: you know, the men have freemasons and where we have
41:47
Speaker 2: this and like it's international and it's super amazing and
41:51
Speaker 2: it's exciting and it's a sorority and I'd never been
41:53
Speaker 2: in a sorority, and I like.
41:56
Speaker 3: There was that element was kind of fun for me.
41:59
Speaker 1: Sure, And it feeds like you're you're like having an
42:02
Speaker 1: even more intimate community, which is what you wanted, what
42:07
Speaker 1: we all want in some capacity. So it's like a
42:10
Speaker 1: deeper belief that it's going to bring you deeper into
42:14
Speaker 1: what you want to do and become more powerful and.
42:18
Speaker 3: All that stuff.
42:19
Speaker 2: And in retrospect, I also think that Keith knew that
42:23
Speaker 2: I was slipping away because I had, you know, I
42:26
Speaker 2: had had at this point, I gotten married to Nippy,
42:28
Speaker 2: who I think was a huge threat to Keith And
42:32
Speaker 2: for those who don't know, he's like my husband Pick College.
42:35
Speaker 3: In football, he was the quarterback.
42:36
Speaker 2: He's very handsome, he's built, he's funny, he's a history major.
42:40
Speaker 3: He's like an.
42:41
Speaker 1: Incredible all the things that Keith is not.
42:44
Speaker 2: Not Yes, exactly, and I was married to him and
42:47
Speaker 2: we had a baby and those things were more important.
42:52
Speaker 3: And we're slowly pulling me away.
42:53
Speaker 1: Okay, so we are really just starting to scratch the
42:55
Speaker 1: surface here in this conversation. So Sarah will be back
42:59
Speaker 1: with us for our next episode.
43:11
Speaker 2: HM