Latest / UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing / How to Build Real Relationships on Zoom with Robert Bovarnick
Transcript
- Gary Johnson: Welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing, the show where we get brutally honest about marketing, business, and the messy middle of making it all work. I'm Gary Johnson, marketing coach, strategist, and Professional BS detector for attorneys and business owners who are tired of doing what everyone else does. Around here, we skip the fluff. We have real conversations, real insights, and maybe a few F-bombs along the way. So let's get into it. Zoom sucks. That is what I hear from a lot of attorneys when it comes to networking. They bitch and complain, and therefore they don't take advantage of opportunities, mainly because They have no clue on how to do Zoom effectively. Today, I'm joined by my good friend Rob Bavarnik, who is the founder of his own firm and a business attorney with more than 30 years of experience advising business owners, executives, lenders, and investors through some of their most important decisions. Now, over the course of Rob's career, He has built an incredible referral network and developed a relate a reputation as a trusted advisor, not just because of his legal expertise, but because of the relationships he's cultivated along the way. Today, we're talking about a skill that many attorneys still underestimate, which is networking on Zoom. So whether you're attending referral groups or virtual meetings or one-on-one introductions. There are simple things that you can do to build stronger connections and stand out even through a screen. So Rob, welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. Gary, it is such a pleasure to be with you this afternoon or this morning for you. Yes. Thank you for being a guest. And by the way, thank you also for being so nice. I was al almost uncomfortable on how nice you were just then. I was like, Who the fuck is this guy? So let's get straight into it. So, my first question: many people thought Zoom networking would disappear after the pandemic. Yet it's still a huge part of business development. So, why do you think it's here to stay? Well, let me let me first of all correct something you said in your introduction. So we sort of correct it. So you made reference to legal expertise. And I think one of the things that you have to understand without minimizing whatever expertise I may have, I've always assumed that legal expertise or legal competency is a given. But everybody that we're dealing with knows what in the world they're doing. So what is it that makes a difference? What is it what it is that makes the difference is the relationship. And it doesn't matter whether it is on Zoom or in person, you can create a very similar, not identical, a very similar relationship in in any setting. Yeah. Great point. Great point. But at the same time, I think you're minimizing what a brilliant lawyer you are. So that's just you know, and that's not because I've ever used you. Thank God. Because I d I haven't gotten into trouble, ⁓ especially with bankruptcy. But your reputation, at least in provisors and in the legal community, is outstanding, which helps, right? ⁓ but I I agree. You you need to have a certain level of competence. But it's the relationships that are so key. So back to Zoom being here to stay. Do you think it is? And if so, why? Yes, and I would hope so. And this is a perfect example. You and I are what 2,000 miles apart. And and while we would have met and we did meet in person almost a year ago, we wouldn't be able to maintain the and develop the relationship but for Zoom. And I cherish the time that we spend with each other. Because we have become really good friends and we've only become really good friends because of Zoom. And so it's that way whether it's developing a pure personal relations and and it I mean it could develop into a professional relationship where again, hopefully you don't need me, but if you ever did, you know you could call on me. But the fact is that whether it's a personal relationship or a professional relationship, and by the way, the personal relationships often develop into the professional relationship. So I want it to be here. Yeah. Totally. I agree. So, you know, some people, and I know you you've heard this a lot, is some people are like, ⁓ my God, it's so much harder to build a relationship over Zoom as an in-person. so they just don't do any of it. Like, what would you say to that attorney who is just like, nah, if it's not in person, I'm done. Like, I do not want to to do it. From a purely selfish perspective. I would say to that lawyer, let me know who you're not talking to, and I will. The opportunistic person that you are. Absolutely. It's it's not harder, it's different. I mean, keep in mind there there is nothing quite like face to face, whether it's you know sitting down at a at a at a table having a cup of coffee or or cocktail or whatever the case may be. But there's also a time cost involved in that, right? That whenever you're doing something in person, you have to plan for half a day. Here When you're doing a Zoom meeting, you can be far more efficient. Does it take more of an effort to develop the relationship? Absolutely. But it's also absolutely worth the effort. Yeah, yeah. And and I think you brought up a very good point in regards to it's just different. And like anything, we have to adapt to it. What is that old saying, adapt or die in business? ⁓ and I think we do have to adapt to it. We did adapt to it. During the pandemic, we had to. It was a necessity. But there are sometimes people are like, well, no, I don't think I can create meaningful relationships. And I'm telling you, if you're listening to this, those words of it's not harder, it's different is so important that you just have to get good at doing this because you're l you're you're losing out on a lot of opportunity that's out there. Now What would you say to somebody who wants to be memorable on Zoom in this, ⁓ as opposed to I'm just going through the motions? Are there anything that you would say, hey, I'd try this or I'd try this so that you can be more memorable with that other person or other people? F first of all, remember, always be who you are, right? If if you try to be somebody that you're not, there will be an epic fail. Everybody will know. So One one of the reasons that you and I get along so well is we have very, very similar personalities. Right. But here we You're as fucked up as I am. I agree. I agree. But but there are also a lot of people that we both know that have very different personalities. And we have great relationships with them because we recognize that we we go to where they're at oftentimes. And so I think that's really important. But so being there. And what I mean by that is be in the moment. I I don't know if you're going to ask me what's one way to you know sort of destroy your online reputation, but I'll I will I will show you. And and I don't mean to be doing this right now, but as you can see, yeah, you know, just I I just left you and it went to my device. And you can see that. And I'm I I over exaggerated, but even like this. Right now my phone is down here, yeah, and you can see that, and you can say, ⁓ fine, you know, Rob is less important. It's less interested in me and more important than whatever is going on on on on the phone. Yep. And that's a that's a great point, is to not have the distractions. Because if you're in person, you don't have those distractions. Well, hopefully. Can you imagine being in front of somebody and them checking their email on their phone the entire time that you're having a lunch or a coffee with them? Right. That's the last time you're gonna have lunch or coffee with them. Right. Right. Because it feels so disrespectful. More important than that, you are not going to refer a client to them because if they don't have the courtesy to provide their attention to you, what are they going to do when you have a client? Are they going to be the same distracted individual? And you certainly don't want that. So not a good thing to do. No, God, no. And that's such a such an important element that we sometimes don't think about because I agree with you. When they're like this, ⁓ yeah. You know they're looking at their other screen, you know, and you're like, great, okay. Now, I don't mind when people take notes. Like, somebody's taking a note, whether it's writing, like I've got my remarkable and I'll always hold my pen up so that people understand when I look down, I'm actually taking notes, right? But there's a difference between that and looking at your email and responding to your email or responding to your phone. When you're on this. It's just like such a big no-no. That it's absolutely right. I mean, I have my phone next to me, but it's on silent. It's also what mine is too. So yeah. So I have no idea if if somebody's trying to reach me, well then they'll just have to wait till we're done here and then I'll focus on that. It's the same thing in any networking scenario. You wanna be in the moment. You wanna be with the people you're with. Yeah. So you need to treat it like you are in person instead of Well, you know, I'm just gonna kind of fuck around on this and this and this and not really be there. Now, we also think about networking in regards to the activity that somebody needs to do before the meeting ever starts. So I know you're great at this. What should somebody do to prepare for either a one on one meeting, a one on many meeting before they even hit To go into the Zoom call. So there's no difference between what you should be doing virtually and what you should be doing in person. If you're going to an in-person meeting, ask the organizer for the list of the attendees. Scroll through the list of the attendees and say, who is it that I want to meet? Then find those people and then do your due diligence on them. Because you you want to be able to have a conversation with them, talk to them about something that may be a little bit different, right? It's not Hi, what is it that you do? That's not going to really get you anywhere. It's it's interesting. The very first networking book I read was you're familiar with Harvey Harvey. I think it's Harvey. I'm not sure if it's Harvey Mackey or Harvey Mackey. But his first book, his first book was Swim with the Sharks Without Getting Eaten Alive. And he had something that was called, I think the the the Mackey 50 or something like that. And it is called God, that's so good. It's questioned. And it's again, you're doing a deep dive. People want you to care and frankly you want to care about people because again, it's all about the relationship. If you spend the time learning about the person and caring about the person, they're more inclined to want to care about you. Same thing on Zoom, but particularly in the group we're improvisers, it's so easy, right? Because before a meeting, you get the photo list and then you can do due diligence on them sitting right at your desk. And and particularly this day and age, with with chat GPT, you you type in something like, No, what is there unique about Gary Johnson? And you'll find things. And and then when you're talking to Gary Johnson, you say, you know, you you mentioned whatever it is that he's a sailor or whatever whatever the case may be. Yeah. I'm not a sailor, by the way. But yeah, I ⁓ okay so I didn't do any due diligence for you before this meeting. I didn't think I needed to. So give me do you have any examples of this ⁓ done incorrectly towards you. When you've been on and the other person on the other side has not done their due diligence and how it was like shit. That is just awful. Absolutely I can. Without naming names. And this is not you can name names. It's okay. We'll put it in there. I'll actually take the names. No. But I don't want to get inundated with introductions. Give some thought to it. All right. If I if I get five introductions from you every day, I'm going to know very, very quickly If you're just sending a number of of emails of people that you met, they may or may not be beneficial to me or not or or I may already already know. All right. Spend a little bit of time thinking about is this a good match? Because I'm just if I'm getting it's it's almost like a spam email. Right. And that is something that it loses its novelty very, very quickly. Yeah. Very very quickly, which just sucks, you know. and And I always say that if you do not have three to five reasons of introducing somebody to another person, then don't do it. And it could be you guys work with the same sort of clients, you guys are in the same networking group, you guys got great personalities, you guys have a big network, can share with each other. There's so many different reasons. And if you don't even have three to five, then what the hell are you doing? Most likely it's just a check a box. Or just get in front of, ⁓ I want to be in front of Rob because he's the group leader of the Philadelphia Affinity Group and lawyers affinity group and he's Mr. Popular and da-da-da-da-da. I gotta get in front of him because I know he has a lot of influence and I'm just gonna introduce him to somebody else that's a lawyer. And you're like, why? Why are you doing this? You know? Well, like, I need to understand why, because if I don't, either I'm not going to respond or the other person is not gonna respond because they think it's spam or they're like, Is this referral? Like, I didn't say I needed a bankruptcy attorney. I didn't say I needed, you know, a corporate transactional attorney. Like, why are you doing this? And you need to make that abundantly clear. And I think you're you're right on. So therefore, when they come on to the Zoom, they're like, Rob, hey, how do you know, you know, Richard? What's your relationship with him? You know, I saw that this, I saw this in your LinkedIn profile. Have you, you know, done this or whatever it is? That little bit of research really helps you to connect with people as opposed to making it transactional, which is one of the things that I've done for a long time is you mentioned LinkedIn, is I would go on if you and I were meeting for the first time, I would go on to your LinkedIn and I was who are we connected with? And and I would look for the more unusual, right? How do you know this particular person? Because I'm interested in the story. Yeah. Right. Because we get back to I'm interested in you. The the old saying of what you have one mouth and two ears, right? So you you want to be a listener, you want to be an active listener. I am curious, how did you meet this particular person? Yeah, I think that's a brilliant question too, because it can go so many different ways. And it also makes you really be seen as being prepared. Because if you're not prepared and you're just kind of showing up and winging it. People feel that, especially on Zoom. And then they go, Well, if Rob's not prepared for this, how does he prepare with his clients? You lose trust very, very quickly, as opposed to being excited about it, being prepared, making it about them. And then they go, ⁓ I really like Rob. He's a freaking great guy, you know. That's what you did with me, by the way. I'll never forget it too, because, you know, I I had I had reached out to you. Because you kept on cock blocking me into your group. And then I'm like, I gotta get to know this guy because everybody said how awesome he is. But when we got on, no joke, you were like, hey, so and you started going right into it. And I'm like, that fucker's doing what I do. Like, how dare he? ⁓ But it works. It was so nice because I felt important to you. Like I was like, This guy's really making me feel important. We connected. And look, now we're great friends, you know? ⁓ that I value our friendship too. One one of the things I heard years ago, and I have no idea if this is true or not, but people say when they meet Tom Cruise and you're talking to him, you are the only person in his universe. And he's Tom Cruise. Right. And so and I've always remembered that. So my view is when I am talking to somebody, I want them to be the single most important person in my life. For that period of time. It's really, really important. Yeah, I agree. And it's one of the things I teach in in my group coaching is charisma. How do you be charismatic? Because it's a skill. And that thing that you just talked about is one of the most important ones because we're looking we're typically looking over people's shoulders. Who else is here? And that takes away from your charisma. Like, and it's it's not it it's a simple thing to do, but it's not easy. Because you do have so many distractions, especially with somebody like yourself that knows so many different people. It's really difficult to keep that focus in on them, but it's so important to do that. It's even more important. It is even more and and I mean you you you're always you were very, very kind to me today about all these people and on and so forth. But the reason if assuming that's true, the reason for that is because I work at it. Right. And and this is one of the other things that you need to understand, Ureen. I know you do. First of all, It's mindset. This is all about mindset. Right. Yeah. Are you having fun or is this drudgery? If it's drudgery, it's going to show. But to me, this is such a kick in the pants. I mean, I I love meeting people to begin with. And this is such a they're again talking about Pro Wise is such a wonderful organization. It is a joy. And I consider it an honor. Anytime I get to meet somebody and become friends with them, it is an absolute honor. Yep. No, I totally agree. And ⁓ and being a group leader like you are. You're very, very well known. So when people feel that they're like, ⁓ this guy who's really important is actually focusing on me, like, that's really cool. I mean, that's really cool. But I don't and and this is not gonna come as I know you don't look at it that way. I'm seeing it from other people. I never I think it's just the opposite. I think it is so nice of you to wanna spend it some of your time with me at the end of every one of my meetings. I thank everybody for spending part of their day with me. It means a lot that that they come to the meeting. And to me, they don't have to. They're doing it and and I am flattered that they want to spend some other day with in in my group. Yeah. And that brings up a good point because humility is such an important element as as well as gratitude. And people can feel that. Like you are one of the well, sometimes you're one of the most humble people I know. Some. Some of our conversation I'm like, what the fuck? But there is a lot of goodness when we're trying to be effective on Zoom in our networking to be humble as opposed to I'm the fucking shit. You should be kissing my ring, you know, I'm the godfather, da-da-da-da-da. I'm just like, hey asshole, come on. Like we all put our pants on one leg at a time. Keep in mind one of the things that I've always said is voyeuring. That's what I do. It's not who I am. And and and I take my job very seriously. I just don't take me very seriously. And I think you're the same way. I mean, you know, we're we're we're we're in this world for a relatively short period of time. We need to enjoy ourselves. We need to surround ourselves with people that we do enjoy being around. Yeah, totally true. Totally true. So now so we talked about the before, we talked about the presence being during it, being fully focused on them. The after. So after a Zoom to follow up with somebody, what would you advise attorneys to do, you know, to To keep that connection going, because they just had a connection on Zoom. Hopefully it was a pretty good one. But how do they follow up? And also how do they follow up without sounding salesy, like transactional? The the the the first thing that you people might want to consider is the one that's referred to as a one pager. Right. And the whole point of this is if if you're only getting to know somebody, no, how is it that you're going to be able to stay front of mind? And there are a couple things you can do. One, you have a one pager. And how not to be salesy is you just make it part of your process that and you you can even say, look, I'm going to send you one. And more importantly than that, you talk about having the one pager. And one of the things that I always say is I ask the other person if they have one. If they do, I ask them to send it to me. If they don't, I ask them to prepare one and I'll work with them on it. I always say, I'm happy to, here's mine, do a draft, we'll work on it. And and again, it's it's that giving mentality that I think is really, really important. I think ⁓ I'm doing that again. My my view is what can I do to help you? And that's the other thing is pretty much the way that I live my networking or marketing life as opposed to my you know lawyering life is what is it that I can do to help you? How can I make you I always say this, how can I make your life better? Yeah, yeah. How can I help? Yeah. And and one of the things that I want our listeners to really here in this is you talk about your one pager and then you send it to them as opposed to just sending it to them because you're like, hey, do you have one? Send it. Like I've got one if you want to look at it. Like that way we can get to know each other also professionally too. It's such an important element to talk about it during your conversation. Even if it's within the last two minutes, you know, I would highly recommend talking about it earlier. But if it's in the last two minutes, you're like, hey, do you have a one pager? I'd love to see it, you know, really to understand your target market or something that we haven't talked about during the meeting. There's always something. And if you're okay with it, I'd love to send mine over to you. And this way we can continue to go on with this relationship as opposed to Rob. Great talking to you. I'm never going to talk to you again. See you later. And we've all had those encounters where we sat down for half hour, hour, whatever it is, and all right, that that was a one-off. ⁓ and and you you you you you sort of get the idea as to those people that you want to get to know better. And again, you and I are perfect example of this. I mean, you you're right. We have become phenomenally good friends just through the interactions we have. I I look forward to. the time that we talk on the phone or on on Zoom or whatever it is, that's really, really important. Again, we get back to the mindset. ⁓ you know, what is it that I could do to help you? Yeah. Yeah. Because I that go giver mindset is is comes across as relationship as opposed to transactional. We want to stay in the relationship, not the transactional. And that's an important element. Yeah, Gary, it's really interesting. Back in the day, you know, people would say, they'll whether they're clients or or people that know me, You know, what can I do to help you? Years and years ago is do you know anybody that needs a lawyer? Well, frankly, I hope the answer to that is no. But I never say that anymore. What I say is you know me pretty well. Do you know people in your universe that would just like to get to know me? Just have a cup cup of coffee, just get on Zoom and just chat. Not about anything other than get to know me. And I can get to know you. Why do you think that that is more effective than the previous one? Because one, I'm assuming they don't, and it's all about relationships. Right. It's it's also it's salesy, right? Yeah. Saying, you know, hey, hey Gary, you know somebody that needs a lawyer because I'm a really good lawyer. You know something wrong. It again, I'm assuming that today you don't, but tomorrow you might. And if we've just gotten to know each other in a very low-key fashion, then you're gonna sit there and say that Rob is a different type of person. Yeah. So true. And so many people fuck that up. And and I don't think that they're intentionally trying to fuck it up. No, I think that they're just like they've been told by, I don't know, sales professionals, you need to make sure that you ask for a referral. Like it's like, okay, you have not built any trust with me. We just met, you know. I like to say it it asking that, that's like a one night stand. I'm just trying to get it like, let's just go, you know, as opposed to let's get to know each other first. And then we can move the relationship along as we go, but it's also putting it out there and saying, who else do you think would be great for me to build a relationship that I could add value to them? So again, it's all about them as opposed to anybody that you could refer over to me, I really appreciate it. ⁓ and by the way, since you're an attorney, I could pay you referral fee and blah blah blah blah blah. And you're like, okay, this is so true that that just instantly turned to transactional. Which I think you said it right. It's sellsy. Yeah. Just sucks. It just sucks. A a day does not go by that then I don't get an email of somebody saying, Do you know somebody? You know, and and do I get a benefit out of it? Well, sort of. I mean you know, obviously I'm connecting them with whomever. ⁓ the benefit I am getting is I am providing value to them. ⁓ I don't I'm not getting anything today, but once again, you know, I think they re they're reaching out to me for a reason. They're reaching out because they can trust me. To hook them up with the right person. And obviously, if there comes a time when they have a need for my skill set, hopefully they'll think of me. If they don't, they don't. You know, it again, I don't say I don't keep score. Well, when I when I talk about best practices, at the very end I say, don't keep score. It I some people keep a list. I don't keep I sort of have a list, but not a particularly good one because I don't want to know. Right? If if I if I send you four matters. And you don't send me anything, I you know, I don't wanna know because they'll it may not be today, maybe tomorrow, or it may not be you, but it may be a friend of yours, right? That's what it's all about. It's it's it's the long game. And and it's also very effective marketing. Because would you rather have that impression, somebody's head, as opposed to a newsletter? And I'm not against newsletters, by the way, but what's more effective? Newsletter is more efficient, but that That when somebody reaches out to you and then you refer them over to somebody else, that's effective marketing because they're going to appreciate you and being like, dude, Rob, thank you for that referral. That individual, she changed my life. What are they gonna do? They're gonna think about you all the freaking time, as opposed to I got this new recipe in my newsletter. Yay, you know. Much more effective. ⁓ much more effective. But it does take a little bit more time. But if we're, let's say we're keeping score in regards to our effectiveness, I would give a mass email newsletter as a one point and helping somebody get connected with somebody else as 20 points. Much better. I mean, much better. They will remember you for a very long time. Here's the other thing is they talk about you. Get them to talk about you. Like all the stuff that you've been talking about, being present, having the right mindset. Treating another person like you would if they were in person, all of that equates to them really liking you and them remembering you. And that's gold. That is absolute gold. Absolute gold. Yeah. So, last question for you. What is one networking habit that you've developed over the years that let's just say has had one of the biggest impacts on your career? Remembering that it's an honor. whenever anybody reaches out to me, because there are so many people that do what I do. There's so many people that do what you do. I understand nobody does what you do as well as you, but not everybody knows that. But again, and I say this to my I say this to my clients all the time. I just I was on the phone with a client earlier today who sent me an email last night, one can we talk today? And I said to him, Yeah, you're you're welcome to reach out to me on the weekend. If I'm available, I will I will talk because my view is if it's important enough For you to want to reach out. I want to be respectful of your issue because what you're doing, it may not be the biggest matter on my desk, but it is certainly the biggest matter on your desk. And I need to be respectful of that. So again, it it's all about being empathetic and being respectful, whether it's a client, whether it's a referral source, or frankly whether it's a friend. It doesn't matter. You need to have the same level of respect for everybody. If you're listening to this and an attorney and you get one thing out of it, that's the one thing I'd love to for everybody to get out of that is it is an honor. It's a privilege. And these relationships are an honor and p privilege. And we need to respect that. We need to respect the other person's time, what they're going through. And that's such a a fucking great that's such a great way to end this. So like gold, Rob, as I knew it was going to be, I understand why you are one, one of the best group leaders, improvisers. Not the best, that goes to me. But one of the see how humble I am. But I I but keep in mind how how long have you been a group leader? Seven years. I'm I'm three three slash four years and I'm limping at your heels. That doesn't what does that say about you? That means that you're younger and better looking than me, and ⁓ you just get a bunch of good people. But Rob, like seriously, thank you. I mean, listeners, reach out to Rob. He if you can tell He's got so many great pieces of advice, so much wisdom. And remember, when it comes to Zoom, it's not harder, it's just different. Adapt to it. Always be yourself. You know, look at what is good with Zoom instead of I can't be in person. Look at that. You get to save time on travel. And like be respectful of other people, be connected to them. Be present. You do that on Zoom and you're gonna crush it. Rob, you're the best. Thank you so much for being a guest on Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. And if you do want to get a hold of Rob, I'm gonna put all of his ⁓ contact information, his LinkedIn, connect with him on LinkedIn, reach out to him, especially if you need a fantastic attorney, because he is one of the best. And if he can't help you, guess what? He has a great network where they can help. And again, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate you. Gary, thank you for your time this afternoon. That's it for today's episode of Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. If you got a spark of inspiration, learned something new, or at least got a good laugh, make sure to follow, rate, and share this with someone who needs to hear it. Thanks for hanging out with me. And remember, the best marketing is the one that actually sounds like you. See you next time.