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Napoleon with Costume Designers Janty Yates and David Crossman · The Art of Costume Podcast

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Just a huge amalgamation of two very clever buyers and me just
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wanting probably a bit more out and out rather than discretion.
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They've always gone in the flash rather than discretion.
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We love you for that though. Hello, and welcome to the Art of
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Costume Podcast. I am your host, Spencer
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Williams, and thank you so much for joining me for another bonus
0:52
episode. What's going on?
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Costume nerds, I am so excited to talk to you about today's
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episode as we just have so many exciting costumes to talk about.
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We're talking, of course, about the huge epic Napoleon directed
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by one of my favorites, Ridley Scott.
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You all know how I feel about the Alien films.
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I could talk about them forever, thanks to Ridley Scott.
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So you know, when I saw that Ridley Scott was doing Napoleon
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with some of these incredible costume designers, you know, I
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was seated. I had to see it.
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It's so good. It was worth the wait.
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But let's get into it with some of our usual business with a
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summary. Napoleon is a look at the
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military commanders origins and a swift ruthless climb to
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Emperor, viewed through the prism of his addictive and often
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volatile relationship with his wife and one true love,
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Josephine. And now diving behind the
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costumes we have director Ridley Scott and costume designers Jan
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T Yates and David Crossman. You know Jan T Yates from her
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Academy award-winning work on Gladiator.
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She also designed the costumes for Miami Vice and American
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gangster Prometheus, which is one of my all time favorite
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films. When you get home from work or
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if you're home already, get yourself a box of pizza, a
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drink. Watch Prometheus, you'll thank
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me later. It is so good she also designed
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the costumes for Exodus, Gods and Kings Martian, for which he
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got a Costume Designers Guild nomination, Alien Covenant, The
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Last Duel, and of course the House of Gucci, for which Jante
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Yates was nominated for another Costume Designers Guild award.
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Then we have costume designer David Crossman, who really has
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such a incredible specialty in military wear.
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Even though David from his work on Rogue One, for which he was
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nominated for Costume Designers Guild Award solo A Star Wars
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Story, which is of course the Han Solo film 1917.
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And David was credited as costume designer on The Batman
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with Robert Panson for designing the Bat suit.
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Both Jan T Yates and David Crossman are currently in
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production on Gladiator 2, which I know is going to be
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incredible. I'm so excited.
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And of course, Jan T Yates and David Crossman were both
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nominated for a Cami Award for their work on Napoleon.
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I'm so excited to get into this film.
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There's so many costumes I I'm excited to talk about.
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Of course, just the breath of France, for which Janti really
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dove into some incredible research to bring this era to
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life. Of course, Josephine's
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incredible costumes when you see her going about the castle into
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the pond and Oh my gosh, that incredible coronation scene.
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It is incredibly beautiful. I was blown away and when I saw
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it is so good. And of course I want to talk
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about all the war scenes too, for which David Crossman really
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took lead on with his military background.
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They're huge, they're epic. And the breakdown of the
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costumes, there's blood, dirt, everything.
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These costumes just go through everything.
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It is a bloody mess. And you know that.
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I love that. So I'm so excited.
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And with that being said, right after this break, we're going to
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be joined by costume designers Jan T Yates and David Crossman.
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I am so excited. I have so many questions, so
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stay tuned. Thank you all.
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I'm so happy to welcome Napoleon costume designers Chanti Yates
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and David Crossman. Thank you so much for being
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here. I'm a big fan of both your work,
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David, your prowess, and Milty Ware Janti.
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I mean, I could go on forever. Prometheus One of the best
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movies of all time. Thank you so much.
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Of course, let's get into it. So Janti, you have been a long
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time collaborator, really. Scott's obviously going back to
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Gladiator for what? You won Academy Award.
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So going into Napoleon, this huge epic film, did you have an
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idea of what you're gaining yourself into this time?
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There was just another Ridley movie, another really movie.
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Right, Well, I'd also like to talk for a moment about the
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research process, for which I can only imagine was very in
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depth. I read that you actually
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travelled to France too, to get a better idea of who these
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characters were. We went independently,
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ironically, I went, we both went to province independently and we
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both went to Paris independently.
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It was just a matter of timing, because I think, David, you were
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on another film, weren't you, when I went.
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So he joined a little bit later. But yeah, we did every museum in
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Paris. We went to Fontainebleau, we
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went to Malmaison. Obviously the Music Museum of
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Military Museum in Paris, such as I could have spent a week
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there. It was so fast.
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Even though David did the military, you know, also I went
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to two or three other just museums in Paris that would show
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you how the French lived in that period in that time because you
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don't know really, you know, what they ate for lunch or what
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they ate for supper or whether they ate at all, you know, sort
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of things like that. You do need to know.
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And then also in England, obviously the British Museum,
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the museums Ashmolean and Pit River, and then also the pudding
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of the Jane Austen Museum in Bath, which is actually very
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helpful, very helpful for that period because they had simpler
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ideas. And then another museum in
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Chertsey, believe it or not, that allowed us to see how the
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costumes were made. We were able to tear them.
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No, not tear them, but turn them inside out and really examine
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the seams etcetera. It was a wonderful opportunity
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in actual fact. Well, that sounds fascinating.
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I have to admit, I'm quite jealous.
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David. Let's get into the military
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aspect of it all. To take on this enormous task I
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could imagine it must have been a little daunting, especially
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since there were so many. These armies were massive.
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Huge. So how did you and a team
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assemble all these costumes, and what did your research process
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look like again into the specific time period of military
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wear? Well, the, I mean the research,
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I think gente rang me about the job and then I think there was a
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break. I think COVID happened after
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that and then so there was a bit of a break and I was kind of
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half looking at the subject thinking the job might happen
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and when it was going to happen then I just started gathering
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you. You go after kind of every image
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of Napoleon you can get your hands on and try and collate it.
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Then you try and put it into some kind of date line.
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And so I kind of amass these books of his kind of life kind
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of in pictures. And then and then before you
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kind of start anything, it was important to me just to go and
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look at real clothing. And we've got a friend called
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Mark Wallace who has this clothing collection just outside
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London. It's all original pieces.
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Everything there is original. So he's got these beautiful
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original bicons of the period, lovely coats.
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He's got coats from from the French Revolution, he's got
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bridges, waist coats and lovely coats.
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And so we borrowed a good chunk of those and then we took
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patterns from everything. So we had kind of staple
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original shapes for everything that we were going to produce
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for actors, but also everything that we were going to try and
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produce for the crowd because most of those numbers didn't
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exist. And and The thing is, it's there
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were so many things like bearskins to make and all that
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and we didn't really want to use real fur and you couldn't
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really, you know, we were trying to make it a bit more vegan and
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trying not to sort of, you know, slay millions of animals.
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So we were, we were trying to work on kind of synthetic
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versions of like grenadiers, bearskin hats and things like
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that. So it was all sampling all these
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kind of pieces and getting, you know, original hats made from
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wackings bicons which are made of tree bark.
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And so we sent those off to our millimers in Rome who made
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brilliant shapes, you know, to the to the measurements that you
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can get in on the museum website.
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So they had all the kind of dimensions of these hats.
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So we made some of those just to kick off.
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And then then we started all the embroidery for the kind of
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higher ranks and the generals because throughout the whole
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French revolutionary period and into the kind of empire, there's
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just so much embroidery, so much gold and bully and embroidery.
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So that was a real time challenge because obviously all
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of that's by hand. You're trying not to do that by
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machine. You're trying to get the hand
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kind of embroidery because it's much heavier, it looks weightier
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and more real. So you're you're just trying to
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hit all these things, you know at the same time you're just
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trying to do sort of it sounds like we went to Provence on some
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kind of holiday. But there is actually this great
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museum in Provence called the Museum of the Emperors.
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It's this collection of two brothers who had this huge
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Napoleonic uniform collection and they stored it in their
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house and it's been, it's owned now by the government but but
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they have these amazing costumes on manic complete from head to
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toe and and they're just such brilliant reference for us.
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So combined with the shapes, you know the combined with getting
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the kind of colours right and just doing a nice kind of
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balance of colours for the film, that's that's kind of how we
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approached it. This is a massive undertaking I
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can't even imagine. And I would like to turn
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actually to Napoleon, David, because we all kind of have an
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idea of what Napoleon might have looked like based on textbooks,
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but you really had to do probably more in depth research
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than just reading a history textbook.
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So how did he approach Napoleon's military uniforms?
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I think we first first of all hats and then how many hats are
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we going to do over the period of film.
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You know how many times would he change?
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Kind of his. His.
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His hat almost gets bigger as he gets more powerful.
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It almost turns into a you know the bike from eighteen O 5 to
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1815. I love that.
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Wanted to do you know there was so many.
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There was we we sort of tried to hunt down every existing item of
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Napoleon's. There was 1 green coat left in
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in one museum which had been restored.
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So that was great even though it was only online but it was great
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it was a great resource for us. There's a grey coat hanging in
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the Museum of Paris along with his bike on.
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So we looked at that and then combined that with a real coat
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of the period and put it all together and then did it to
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wacking sizes. And so you wanted to get a nice
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skirting in the coat and you know, which I don't think I see
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how I've seen other versions of Napoleon.
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So I'm not, you know, but they're not always that kind of
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that shape of a riding coat of the of the time.
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But so you you're trying you you then try and build in some of
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the romance, the portraits and the paintings, but not kind of
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not overdoing it because Joaquin is going to do a kind of
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authentic ish, you know, kind of performance.
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And you say you want to kind of be in line with that and not be
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too fantastical. But yes, it's a combination of
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kind of combination. It's like in the same way
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there's different portraits. So you kind of take the best of
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everything and then try and put it into the one thing.
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As long as people look at it and go that's the podium, then it's
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OK. It's like.
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That, yeah, Well, mission accomplished.
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I think we got that point. I now want to turn to Josephine,
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who's played brilliantly by Vanessa Kirby.
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And the story of Josephine is quite intimate and emotional.
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Chanty could tell us about design these costumes to help
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tell the story of Josephine and also what your collaboration
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might have looked like between you and Vanessa and bringing
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this person to life. Well, there wasn't really any
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because she came in very last minute.
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We met Jodie Comer up until Christmas and we were shooting
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in February, so that was a bit of a lastminute.com.
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And she was. She was so in love with the
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costumes that we'd made already. We had to do a huge alteration
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because she's taller and slimmer.
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She had the same size feet, thank God.
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And so, you know, we just carried on really.
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But so luckily Vanessa was fantastic and she understood the
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arc that I was trying to, you know, just gently hint at from
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prison through to the greatest riches and basically the
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coronation and then going slowly downwards, really not from
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there, but from sort of the divorce onwards, very much, you
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know, the arc is descending. And I had spoken with Ridley and
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I said I want to keep her silvers and golds, gold bullion
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and lace and lots of embroidery, lots of, you know, beautiful,
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the the most beautiful fabrics in the world.
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And he said fine, So we went to edge.
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Kind of like a costume design dream.
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This character I would say you could.
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There was a lot of fun stuff that could happen here.
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Well, I was very fortunate. We have to talk about the
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coronation scene, Gentie I was in the theater with another
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costume designer, Mitchell Travers, and we were absolutely
15:21
floored watching this scene. It was so grand.
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And I've got to ask, just how did you and your team pull this
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scene together? It was.
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It felt like we were looking at a portrait the entire time.
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Well, we did actually completely copy David's portrait.
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I mean to the to the point where I found these wonderful floral
15:44
copes for the Archbishop and we put those on and they matched
15:49
the Well, it didn't exactly match, but you know they were
15:53
probably 100 years old and found them in the Paris flea market.
15:58
Not cheap, but anyway it was, it was a collaboration.
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It was David David nagging us constantly to get the get the
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trains embroidered, get them embroidered because they were so
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huge and we were getting quotes from all over Europe.
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And in the end it was a contact in Pakistan who they came in,
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they sent photos of them just sitting around 13 of them in the
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family, all embroidering the trains.
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Amazing. And they came back and they
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were, we were so lucky they were perfect.
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We never ever believed they'd come back perfect and they did
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and we were very lucky. And the dress is obviously
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everything was hand embroidered in gold bullion for the ladies
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in waiting and for Josephine and and Joaquim.
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And then all the jewellery, most of the jewellery we made in
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house or our jeweller. And then Dave, you can talk
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about your wonderful military splendour.
17:08
I. Mean we made as many full dress
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Marshalls coats as possible because they're embroidered
17:13
everywhere, front, back, sleeves, just all over the
17:16
place. So as many as we could afford,
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basically. And then we were you know trying
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to pad out the ranks with as much as much embroidery on show.
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There was a book actually that Janti had which was the kind of
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it's a it's like a reprint of all the costumes worn at the
17:32
coronation. It's like all the kind of.
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So we, I think we tried to add some of those into the David,
17:37
looking at the David painting and then looking at the that
17:40
book because we did some heralds from that and you know full
17:45
dress uniforms for Ben Miles, Colin Cole when he comes over
17:47
with the crowd. So he's wearing this kind of
17:49
blue costume either designed by him or Napoleon or or David.
17:55
I'm not sure who did it, but it's kind of pale blue with
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silver embroidery. We were just trying to sort of,
18:02
you know, so we, yeah, we tried to mix those two together and
18:05
just try and get as much luxury into it as possible.
18:10
Yeah, what a beautiful scene. And David, thank you for pushing
18:12
for an embroidery because it was quite the treat.
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But it was because we were just so it was such a lot to do.
18:19
It was so expensive. So me and Janette would talk
18:22
every kind of few days about where we were going to go.
18:24
Thanks for coming up with eye watering amounts of money to do
18:29
these things because you had to do them both.
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And then in the end, you know, as Jan T said, Melissa had this
18:36
other person who could do it and and their price was really good
18:40
and they could do it in the time.
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So you know, we, we went with them, but I think that was it.
18:45
We just didn't want to commit too early.
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I think that was one of the things people were sending in,
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didn't want to do it on machine. We didn't want to.
18:51
We wanted to do it by hand, but without kind of going insane,
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you know, and it's a, it's a huge risk, right?
18:59
Because if it had been brought forward at all that scene, we
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wouldn't have made it, you know, We just made it, you know, it's
19:05
like very close. Wow.
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Well, I now want to talk about one of my favorite aspects of
19:11
costume design, which is the breakdown of costumes and David.
19:16
We love. Nobody even knows about
19:18
breakdown, I mean. You can't do this film without
19:23
with you know and we had someone called Joe Weaving who ran our
19:27
department and she I I don't know how she did it.
19:30
We would literally give her thousands of garments to do and
19:34
she. Messy It was.
19:35
Dirt, blood, snow, water, ice, horses, everything.
19:40
Before all of that happens, all those costumes go through this
19:44
process before they get to the set, you know, so they arrive,
19:47
you know, there they are, the brightness that bright that
19:49
they're too much, you know. And so they all have to go
19:52
through through Joe and it's she puts shape and character into
19:57
them so they're not just kind of off off the peg.
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And she just coped with this kind of just, I mean huge
20:04
amounts coming in by truck every week.
20:06
And you know, she got through it with her team and it was, it was
20:10
amazing, you know, huge. But you can't do a Ridley film
20:15
with that huge Department of Breakdown, Really, Can you do?
20:20
No, I mean it. It's it's so important that
20:22
people often forget about it because it really helps you feel
20:25
immersed within the story. You know, imagine if all these
20:28
uniforms were just out of the laundry would look so
20:31
ridiculous. So I I really appreciate it.
20:33
I was. It felt like art.
20:35
She helped us achieve was this kind of just controlling the
20:38
whole way it looks rather than looking like a bunch of keep
20:43
saying re enactors but like a bunch of kind of theatrical
20:46
uniforms marching about, which often it just looks cheap and
20:49
nasty right. It's often you just don't have
20:52
the time or the money to do these things and it's so we just
20:56
wanted to try and do it so it looked authentic and believable
20:59
and and real and and that's where you you you can't do it
21:04
without a great breakdown department, right?
21:08
Gente, I know I want to turn to you.
21:09
From seeing this film, I can tell that you must have a huge
21:12
appreciation for textiles and fabrics.
21:16
We noticed some furs as well. There's that one scene where
21:18
Josephine's standing outside her home waiting for Napoleon and
21:22
she's wearing like, don't remember the color, maybe it was
21:24
like a a light purple, but the fur around the collar, I was
21:28
very struck by that costume. So can you share your process
21:33
when it comes to fabrics, furs, textiles?
21:36
Well, I always start a film by going to the cost to the fabric
21:42
warehouses and buying. Well, we both do really buy buy
21:47
the mile and then we go off to various other places and I went
21:54
to a favorite outlet in Lyon and.
21:59
That's. Glorious for the upper echelons.
22:05
And then we bought a huge, huge, huge amount in the flea market
22:11
in Paris and basically lengths of fabric we took, we took the
22:18
embroidery off and reapplied it. We appliqued an awful lot of the
22:24
embroidery because you can't obviously use the original piece
22:28
of fabric, You just have to steal the steal the embroidery,
22:34
the fair is all fake. Of course, you know, in this day
22:37
and age can't, can't use the Real McCoy.
22:41
And you know it was just very cleverly applied because it, I
22:45
think it's it's in the application that it looks like
22:49
real fur, just a huge amalgamation of two very clever
22:55
buyers and me just wanting probably a bit more out and out
23:02
rather than discretion. We've always gone from the flash
23:07
rather than discretion. We love you for that though,
23:16
David. We talked about a little bit
23:18
earlier, but I was fascinated by the use of hats and I felt like
23:22
there's an evolution of the hats as a film kind of went from
23:26
beginning to end. So you touched on a little bit,
23:28
but if you could, you know in detail kind of talk about the
23:32
use of hats? Yeah, I mean, it's the my one of
23:36
my big fears having on hats and actors.
23:40
They're often, you know, difficult pairing because people
23:44
are kind of scared of big shapes on people's heads and it's.
23:48
Especially these types of specific hats.
23:52
Push back on various films with various hats.
23:55
It's always about hats and you know because it's that's what
23:57
you're seeing in the kind of the frame and but we we did take our
24:03
we took our original shapes and we copied them and they just
24:07
kind of they just kind of work in proportion of the uniforms
24:10
And our com company and Rome made our first sample Napoleon
24:16
hats from a kind of tree bark because wacking's a vegan so he
24:20
can't wear wool felt. And so we found this bark that
24:24
we'd been using for other things on other films and then we we
24:28
got the milliners to try and try and do a kind of bike on from
24:32
that. And it worked so well because it
24:35
gave us this beautiful texture on the hat rather than just
24:38
being a flat kind of felt look. So when it catches the light in
24:42
some way, it looks more like a kind of Beaver skin hat where it
24:44
has a kind of, you know, they have a lot of interest in them.
24:49
And then so the and then the next thing was to find, we just
24:53
found antique braids. We were always on whacking hats
24:56
and all the Marshalls we were using original, not original
25:00
1805 but kind of period vintage braids that we could find, you
25:05
know, whenever we found them in antique shops or in flea
25:07
markets. And so we'd buy up enough roles
25:10
so that you could do the actor and it's riding double.
25:13
And then the actual shapes of the hats, they go kind of it's
25:18
kind of French revolutionary Bicons, you know, in the early
25:21
kind of period, in the revolutionary years.
25:23
And they kind of evolve. The Bicons stays with you for
25:27
about sort of 10:00-ish years, and then it turns into the kind
25:30
of early looking hack called the Shacko.
25:34
And then the shacko becomes the kind of symbol of late
25:37
Napoleonic kind of late Napoleonic soldier.
25:41
And the marshals and generals, they all wear huge Bicons with
25:44
different coloured feathers which denote their kind of rank
25:46
on the field. And then Napoleon, almost.
25:49
So you'd have a lot of it, you know, elaborate hats and
25:52
headwear hazards, busbys. And whereas Napoleon tends to go
25:56
plain. And once, once he's passed the
25:58
rank of generals in charge and he becomes emperor, then he goes
26:02
into this kind of from from that day on, he's pretty much wearing
26:04
a plain black Bicon hat. And he's kind of, you know,
26:08
figuring out his his brand for the rest of his life.
26:11
Oh wow. So there really is a evolution
26:14
through the hats as we watch through the film I.
26:16
Mean you could do more but you if you did too too many, but I I
26:21
think we kind of got roughly the right kind of you know there is
26:26
more scope but yeah. Right.
26:29
Well, I mean, it looked amazing on screen.
26:33
As we wrap here, I'd like to ask both of you, now that Napoleon
26:36
is out in the world now, what do you hope the audience will take
26:39
away from the film and supporting costumes?
26:42
Chanty, I'll start with you. I hope they have deep joy.
26:46
I think. I hope they're amused because it
26:50
is very funny. I hope they're educated and in a
26:55
nice way, not in a feeling like I've been sitting for 2 1/2
26:59
hours in front of a school teacher.
27:02
I hope they're entertained and say everything.
27:05
I hope they have what we used to call a really good old fashioned
27:10
film feeling leaving, but we don't have quite the same
27:16
anymore. I hope they have the old
27:18
fashioned satisfaction. Oh, I love that.
27:21
I wish my history teacher actually did teach like this.
27:25
David, what about you? It's true, I think.
27:28
I hope they appreciate the the humorous aspects of Napoleon's
27:32
life because when you read the books and the biographies,
27:35
there's loads of funny moments and you can see why those are in
27:38
the script and you I'm sort of glad of them in there and it's
27:41
kind of, I think it's a very good portrayal in loads of
27:44
places. I think it's very true to you
27:46
know what you've read about it. So you just want them to exactly
27:50
as Janet says you just want them to you just want people to enjoy
27:52
the film. Just go, Wow, I really enjoyed
27:54
that film because it is a it's a spectacle, you know, and it's
27:59
you just need to go to the cinema, just enjoy yourself.
28:01
Can't you for a couple of hours not not feel banged over the
28:06
head by history's hammer or you know, but you but you know, just
28:11
to actually enjoy because wacking is so engaging to watch
28:14
and Vanessa's great. So the the two of them together,
28:17
I think they make a really good, enjoyable film and it won't, it
28:20
won't cover every aspect of Napoleon.
28:21
It's not going to go everywhere and do everything but, but it's
28:25
a great kind of basis for thought, isn't it?
28:29
Well, I have to say the film is very immersive and I had a great
28:32
time watching it. When I laughed, I cried a little
28:34
bit. I was, I was scared from all the
28:37
breakdown. So thank you so much, costing
28:41
his iron janty eights. And David Crossman, thank you so
28:43
much for joining. This was a real treat, and I
28:45
hope everyone rushes to the theaters and sees Napoleon as
28:48
soon as possible. Thank you.
28:50
So thank you. The Art of Costume podcast is
28:58
hosted and produced by Elizabeth Joy Glass and Spencer Williams.
29:03
Our audio engineering and editing is done by Dan White.
29:07
Follow us on TikTok at The Art of Costume and Instagram at The
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go to theartofcostume.com/podstore.
29:21
For more podcast updates, costume reviews, deep dives and
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interviews, go to theartofcostume.com, A blog
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dedicated to highlighting the best in costume design.