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Sitting with Discomfort: Ryan Soave on Trauma, Recovery, and Resilience · Finding New Waters

• 0:00
  For my mentor said to me, you got problems in places you
• 0:02
  didn't have places before. You know, it was like, you know,
• 0:06
  it's like I, I didn't have a family, I didn't have
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  responsibilities like this and like really this, the problem
• 0:11
  and solution was nothing compared to what I've been
• 0:14
  through in the past, But I'm, I'm more sensitive to it.
• 0:16
  You know, the pain comes sooner, which is a a gift because you
• 0:21
  know, it used to be like driving down the highway and you know,
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  you go off on those rumble strips, you know, and you hear
• 0:27
  that and you're supposed to get back on the road like I used to
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  in life, feel those rumble strips and feel them again.
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  And then I'd like be in the ditch and it'd be rolled over
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  and the car be on fire. And then I'd be like, hey, can I
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  have some help? All right.
• 0:38
  Welcome back everybody to another episode of Finding New
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  Waters. I'm sitting here with our CEO,
• 0:42
  Justin McClendon, and our very special guest today, Ryan Suave.
• 0:47
  Welcome, Ryan. Oh, thanks for having me guys.
• 0:49
  I really appreciate appreciate being here.
• 0:52
  Yeah, man, we're glad to have you.
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  So I don't want to get too bogged down in this, but I do
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  want to kind of give a little bit of a background on how we
• 0:59
  ended up sitting here today a little.
• 1:03
  I've been working in this field now for just over 5 years.
• 1:06
  And right when I started working, a friend of mine I went
• 1:09
  to high school with named Kendall, who is a notoriously
• 1:13
  great connector as it is, reached out to me and said you
• 1:16
  need to meet my friend Ryan. You may have met him.
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  They went to Wake Forest together and so we kind of
• 1:22
  connected and emailed and went back and forth.
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  And then couple years later, I was touring Guardian down in
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  Florida and I was walking down the hallway.
• 1:32
  The guy was giving me a tour and his name is your title was
• 1:36
  either clinical director or chief clinical officer, I can't
• 1:39
  remember. But on the door I was like that.
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  That's Ryan. And they're like, yeah, you know
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  him. I was like, well, kind of.
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  And then, and then we've ended up talking a few times and, you
• 1:47
  know, helped each other out on a few cases and then, you know,
• 1:50
  just sort of know what, what each other is up to.
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  And then he was recently on the Huberman Lab podcast and Kendall
• 1:58
  sent me the thing and I was, I'd already seen clips of it and she
• 2:01
  said you should get him on the podcast.
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  I was like, you know, I'd like to think I already had that
• 2:04
  idea, but I'm not sure. But anyway, so I reached out to
• 2:07
  him and I, he went, I think part of the deal was he said, listen
• 2:11
  to the whole thing. It's three hours.
• 2:12
  And I did immediately. I want my next drive.
• 2:14
  I listen to the whole thing. It was so good.
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  And I really loved everything, all the insight about, about the
• 2:20
  clinical side of things and, and your specific brand of
• 2:24
  meditation and yoga and all that, but also the way you talk
• 2:27
  about recovery and respecting traditions and just, I, I just
• 2:31
  loved it. And so anyway, so here we are,
• 2:34
  and I'm glad you're here, man. Oh, thanks.
• 2:37
  Thanks for that nice introduction.
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  Am I echoing then or is it good? Oh, you're good.
• 2:43
  I think you're good, yeah. Thanks for the introduction.
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  I, I, I, I wasn't asking you to listen to that because I, I, I
• 2:50
  was promoting myself. I wanted you to listen to it to
• 2:53
  make sure you still wanted to have me on SO.
• 2:55
  I hear you. I appreciate being here.
• 2:57
  Yeah, well, yeah. Tell us how that happened first
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  of all, but. I had I've known Andrew for many
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  years. I'd actually helped been a a
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  small part of help in his lab on an experiment that they're yeah,
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  an experiment they're running to study like fear, stress and
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  trauma using virtual reality, not as a not as a intervention
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  to use for people, but they're actually using virtual reality
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  to put people in like fear based scenarios.
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  So there was these different scenarios.
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  There was being attacked by dog or dogs coming at people,
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  spiders, claustrophobia heights. And then there was another one
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  that was filmed swimming outside the cage with great white
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  sharks. My involvement.
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  And it was they after people did these were in the kind of fear
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  based scenarios, they would come out and do some sort of they
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  would listen to something that was more relaxing really to kind
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  of build capacity in their parasympathetic nervous system.
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  And then they'd go back in and they were measuring all kinds
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  of, you know, they were measuring stuff with their skin,
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  their eyes, their heart rate. Some of them had implants in
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  their brain they were doing stuff with.
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  I wasn't on the the research side of it, but I helped with
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  that part. And I also got to go on the trip
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  when we filmed the, the great white sharks.
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  We were in a on a boat with some other guys for a week off the
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  coast of Mexico, like a couple 100 miles off the coast.
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  And they had permits to swim outside the cage with the
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  sharks. And they had another friend had
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  this 3D virtual reality, Michael Mueller's his name.
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  He had this 3D virtual underwater camera that they were
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  filming the sharks with. And I was I had a permit to go
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  outside the cage, but I did not go outside the cage.
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  I actually blamed it on my wife. I said my wife wasn't going to
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  let me do it. But I don't know if it was
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  really my wife. I mean, these things were there
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  were hundreds of them and they were, you know, the size of a
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  car. And it was, it was, it was a
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  crazy, it was a crazy experience.
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  And just over the years, you know, I've kind of, we've, we've
• 5:01
  stayed in touch with friends and you know, I'm, I'm really proud
• 5:04
  to see what he's done. And, you know, over the years,
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  he kind of said, I'd, I'd like to have you on.
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  And then one day it just happened.
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  And you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not the, the, the level of fame or
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  caliber of one of the folks he has on, but it was, it was great
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  to have that conversation. I'm, I'm, I'm just super
• 5:20
  grateful for it. Yeah, well, you did a great job.
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  I mean, I, I wasn't just listening to it to, you know,
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  make sure you we wanted you. Obviously.
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  I know you're kidding, but but but you know, sometimes I do say
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  say, you know, let me, let me listen to this and I'll get
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  through it. But it it was, I mean, I could
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  have listened to another three hours easily.
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  It was really, really good. So good job there.
• 5:39
  I have another three hours you can buy I'll send the I'll send
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  you the link after this I. Hear you just we'll, we'll make
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  sure we get all your links, don't worry.
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  And so one other thing, you know, when we were kind of
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  prepping for this, you'd sent me a YouTube clip the other day
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  about I'd say a clip. It was a 30 minute video.
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  Justin listened to it. I listened to it.
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  And you know, I, it's funny when you're talking about these
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  techniques and you're sort of thesis is learning how to, how
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  to sit in discomfort, right? I mean, that's kind of a big
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  part of it. And I remember thinking, my
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  first thought was, you know, is this reserved for things that
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  are actually, you know, a problem?
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  And then fortunately, by the end, you did give another
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  example of yourself being stuck in a middle seat.
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  And, you know, that being the kind of trivial thing that that,
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  you know, can trigger us, you know, and I was thinking
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  because, you know, it's basically sometimes it just
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  comes down to when I don't get my way, I get in this in this
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  kind of thought pattern and feel a physical sensation.
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  So we just kind of talk about, you know, that video and kind of
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  what you're, you know, kind of where your specialty is, for
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  lack of a better word. Yeah, you, you know, I, my,
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  I've, I've worked a lot over the years with, with trauma and
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  addiction and other mental health conditions.
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  But I, you know, really looking at a trauma as kind of the, I've
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  had a kind of mission to broaden the definition of that and to
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  make it less like I either have it or I don't, you know, that
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  everybody experiences trauma in their life.
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  We all experience loss, we experience pain.
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  You know, it's, it's part of it's, it's, it's part of life.
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  And, you know, at times, if we let that build up and things
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  haven't been resolved, then, you know, it can kind of and, and,
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  and if things impacted us early on and kind of shaped the way
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  that we did relationships or do relationships, like it can have
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  an impact later on in life where we needed to be one way in
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  certain situations. But in our in our adult life,
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  you know, it's calling for another way.
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  But we don't really have that programming yet, right?
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  We have kind of the programming of the relationships we're in
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  and then we want to get into to something out.
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  And this especially becomes the case when, you know, our
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  programming was really impacted by, you know, maybe significant
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  events that had us kind of in survival mode or really kind of
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  fending for ourselves or fighting for ourselves and in
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  some way, whether actually or emotionally.
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  And I kind of use it like, you know, the, the, it's part of our
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  nature to experience wounds. And that doesn't mean that then
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  we're a victim of something that we can never get out of.
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  And we have to live like that. And we're, you know, gives us an
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  excuse to not live the lives that we want to live or, or take
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  risks or, but, you know, it's kind of like the nature of a
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  boat in, in water, you know, in, in saltwater anyway, right?
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  If a, if a, if a boat sits brand new boat sits in saltwater long
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  enough, it's going to get a Barnacle.
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  And that one Barnacle is not going to really affect it unless
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  maybe it's a, you know, a super high intense race sailboat where
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  everything needs to be exactly perfect.
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  But for most boats, a Barnacle is not going to really impact
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  it. Maybe 5 or 10 or 100.
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  But there's a point at which there could be so many barnacles
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  that that hull wasn't cleaned off that it could start to
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  affect its navigation, right? It could start to affect the,
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  the, the motor that's in the water as well.
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  And then there's a certain point at which it could breach the
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  hull and it could sink, right? But the, the, the nature of that
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  boat being in that type of water is it's going to get a Barnacle.
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  And, and I think that's, and in, even if you clean all those
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  barnacles off, you know, then you're going to get another one.
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  The difference in, in, in, in like the same thing kind of
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  happens with us. We experience wounding, we
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  expand. If we don't kind of pay
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  attention to them over time, it could build up.
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  The difference is if, if all we knew, like we grew up in a
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  certain way and, and say we're, we'll go back to the boat
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  analogy. All we knew was driving a boat
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  with a ton of barnacles on the bottom of it, even though the
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  navigation was impacted, but we didn't realize that, you know,
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  we just knew this, this is just how we drive this, this boat.
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  And then we try to enter it into a race, right.
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  And now we're not driving like, or we're around other boats and
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  we're like, wow, they're driving that boat a lot differently than
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  us. And that's, that's really what
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  happens, You know, if we grow up in certain situations, and these
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  don't have to be always the, the situations that show up on like
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  the, the aces, you know, with the adverse childhood
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  experiences, it could be just how we are impacted in
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  relationships, not only with our parents, but with our, our
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  classmates, with our coaches, with our teachers, you know,
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  things that happen in our environment.
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  But if that's all we know until we get out in the, and it, it
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  seems normal. And then we get in the world and
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  maybe you go to college, maybe you get in a relationship, you
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  go to work and, and and it's different, but you're still
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  driving the Barnacle covered haul boat of yourself.
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  I'm kind of mixing metaphors here, I guess.
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  But you know, now you start to see where it's, it's, it's, it's
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  different. You know, I've had a lot of
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  people I know that say I didn't realize that my, you know, that
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  things were not, I didn't want to say dysfunctional, but
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  weren't effective in my family until I spent time with another
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  family or sometimes until I saw a family on TV, Right.
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  And then you start to realize that.
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  And that doesn't mean that what you did was wrong or bad or the
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  way that you were raised. It's just a matter of looking
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  and saying, OK, this is how I've been shaped.
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  And, and now does the shaping still fit in the scenario that I
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  am in my adult life? And also along with that, a lot
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  of people will come, you know, if, if you had to live a certain
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  way, you're going to be living that way.
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  And it's kind of the only gear you have, right?
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  And then so someone, let's say they grew up in a relate in a,
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  in a family where, you know, their parents maybe weren't paid
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  attention to in their, in their childhood.
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  And now they're doing the opposite and trying to give them
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  every opportunity. But it, it kind of feels to the
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  kid like they're living, you know, the parents are living
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  vicariously through them and they start to Orient in a way
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  that they feel like I have to be perfect in order for my parents
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  to be happy, even if the parents aren't meaning that right.
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  So now that sets up this kind of transactional nature of like to
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  get love, I need to do something right or to be liked or to be
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  effective. That person may grow up and be
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  able to build a business, be super successful.
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  And in transactional relationships, they're really
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  great, but then they try to apply that to their marriage or
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  their, you know, romantic relationship or their children
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  and it, it doesn't work. So then they give this
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  dissonance where they're really successful or, or feeling really
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  successful in this one area. But then in these other areas,
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  they're, you know, not feeling like, you know, maybe their
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  marriages are falling apart, their kids don't like them, they
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  don't know how to be an effective parent, you know, all
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  of these things. And so eventually that stuff
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  leads to there being a lot of stress in the system, right?
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  A lot of people get stressed by this stuff, especially if like
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  they can be really good at work and that at home, it's really,
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  it's really challenging. And that discomfort, stress
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  builds up and creates discomfort in our, in our, in our bodies
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  and our nervous system, in our brains.
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  And eventually, I mean, this is, this just goes back to like a
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  literature where, you know, the doctor Sokhor said, we, we drink
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  essentially be, is men and women drink essentially because they
• 13:00
  like the effect produced by alcohol.
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  You know, I, I believe that effect is relief.
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  You know, that they're looking for some sort of relief from the
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  stressors of their life. And, and that's where it, you
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  know, that stress builds up like those barnacles and then
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  eventually people are looking for relief and all kinds of
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  things. And those become either in
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  actual addictions or addictive behaviors in in all levels of
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  acuity and and intensity. Ryan, something, I mean, just to
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  that last bit that you said there reminded me of something
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  I, I, I heard in the the YouTube video that we watched, and I'm
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  probably going to butcher this, so feel free to correct me,
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  right? But I think you said something
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  along the lines of, you know, we perceive discomfort as
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  dangerous. Is that is that sound pretty
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  pretty accurate? I mean, I think we're, you know,
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  we're designed is, is, you know, we have a, an evolutionary
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  design that's pretty amazing as humans, right?
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  And I think we, our bodies and brains have not evolved as fast
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  as technology has, right? So, you know, 300 years ago,
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  there was a lot of things that we'd lived out and, you know, a
• 14:06
  lot of people still lived in, in nomadic tribes or lived on off
• 14:09
  the land. And there was a lot of things
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  that were dangerous, you know, I mean, there wasn't even a tooth,
• 14:17
  a tooth infection could be dangerous.
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  We have antibiotics, right? I mean, like, I mean, there was
• 14:21
  not not only that, but you know, the, the weather, the we weren't
• 14:26
  quite as a top of the food chain.
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  Maybe not that animals were eating us, but there were a lot
• 14:30
  more animals that were dangerous.
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  You know, there was, it was wars were a lot more violent.
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  There was a lot of of stuff. And, you know, we, we have a
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  part of us that's like, and like like an animal or a reptile,
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  you'll hear talk about the reptile brain that just kind of
• 14:43
  looking for threat all the time. And we want that to be there.
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  But, you know, nowadays, whereas, you know, 2 or 300
• 14:52
  years ago, maybe 100 years ago, maybe last, you know, there were
• 14:54
  a lot more things that were threatening to us on a daily
• 14:57
  basis. We don't really live in, at
• 15:00
  least in, in, you know, developed nations in the, in the
• 15:04
  West especially, you know, the majority of people are not
• 15:08
  living in a constant state of immediate physical threat.
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  Probably the most that we do every day is driving, right?
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  I mean, you're hurtling down the road, right?
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  And, and most people aren't terrified of that, right?
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  But so we still have the system operating that's that's looking
• 15:27
  for threat. And and you know, there's
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  especially when we've experienced trauma or wounding
• 15:36
  early on that hasn't been resolved.
• 15:37
  You know, maybe we had to be oriented towards threat because
• 15:40
  as a child or as a baby, if your parents abandoned you or
• 15:44
  neglected you, you would die or you were married.
• 15:47
  You know, I the, the kind of joke that I would say is like,
• 15:51
  and this is not true for me at all.
• 15:52
  So mom, if you're listening, please don't.
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  This is my example. You know, if my mom when I was a
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  kid left me out in the in the woods for a month when I was
• 16:00
  three months old, you know, I'd be dead.
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  You know, now I'm 49, if she leaves me alone for a month, we
• 16:07
  get along better, right? Like I can't be abandoned and
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  neglected in that, in that, in that way.
• 16:12
  That's not true, mom. That's not true, mom.
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  That's not true. You know, I can't, I can feel
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  like people can leave me. I mean, people can leave me.
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  I can feel loss, I can feel grief, people can die and I can
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  feel a lot of pain. But I'm able to, you know, I
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  have the capability of, of, of, of caring for myself.
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  And so if people were in situations maybe not even that
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  extreme, but you know, being, experiencing bullying or being
• 16:37
  abandoned or neglected in, in, in some way, you know, early on
• 16:41
  as a kid, you know, these things that as adults we can look back
• 16:44
  on and go that maybe it wasn't so bad, but as a kid, they could
• 16:47
  be life threatening, right. And so if you're oriented to
• 16:53
  kind of surviving now, you're still left with like looking for
• 16:57
  threat every day, but the these things that we experience aren't
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  threat. And then I would say taking it a
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  step further, you know, will confuse discomfort as threat and
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  then react to that discomfort as if it's threat in a survival
• 17:12
  mode, right? So example, you know, B, you and
• 17:16
  I are walking across the street and my car is about to hit us.
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  I you see it, I don't want you to grab me and like ask me if we
• 17:23
  to teach you how to meditate and have compassion for the driver.
• 17:27
  I want you to shove me as hard as you can and you dive, even if
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  it hurts us to get us out of the way so that we live.
• 17:34
  We're meant to go in that state of survival mode.
• 17:36
  The problem happens if I walk in the house at night and, you
• 17:39
  know, my wife says something benign like, you know, take off
• 17:44
  your shoes. And I look at her and I
• 17:46
  immediately start thinking like, oh, she doesn't love me.
• 17:48
  This kind of I, I go in this reactionary state, you know, now
• 17:52
  I'm reacting to her. She's a car about to, I mean,
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  it's just some discomfort that she's triggered inside of me.
• 17:59
  Does that kind of answer your question, Justin?
• 18:00
  Yeah, absolutely. And you know, other examples I'm
• 18:04
  sure laundry list long, right. But you know avoidance, you know
• 18:08
  substance use like you mentioned, you know aggression.
• 18:11
  I mean all the things I guess, right?
• 18:13
  Yeah, And, and I think it's important to say that, you know,
• 18:15
  we, we don't always go all the way.
• 18:17
  I I, I like to look at addictive behaviors kind of on a spectrum.
• 18:20
  I mean, outside of, you know, shooting fentanyl in your neck
• 18:24
  or, you know, drinking yourself to death and, and the stuff that
• 18:27
  can actually get physically addictive and dangerous.
• 18:31
  You know, there are more kind of innocuous things that I can
• 18:35
  sometimes use addictively and sometimes not.
• 18:38
  I mean, it could be avoidance, it could be, you know, sometimes
• 18:42
  it's great to be alone, but now I could be kind of like
• 18:45
  addictively almost finding ways to not interact with people.
• 18:49
  Or, you know, sometimes I'm watching Netflix because and
• 18:51
  binging it because I'm on a plane or I'm sick.
• 18:54
  But there's other times where I got a super stressful day and
• 18:59
  you know, everybody is asleep and now I'm like, well, I'm just
• 19:02
  going to stay awake that I do that.
• 19:03
  You know, a lot of people do this.
• 19:04
  There's this, there's a term for it.
• 19:06
  I can't remember. I think it was called like I
• 19:10
  can't like sleep procrastination or something like that.
• 19:12
  But I, I would, you know, and stay up too late watching 3 or 4
• 19:20
  shows when I should have just gone to bed, you know, and, and
• 19:22
  I'm not saying that's like a totally addictive thing, but now
• 19:25
  that thing is using me versus me using it, which is kind of on
• 19:30
  the pathway there, right? And that's something that's
• 19:32
  very, might sound very silly, but I, you know, I think you
• 19:36
  could do with ice cream or, or food.
• 19:38
  I mean, people do it with all kinds of things and just
• 19:40
  recognize when am I, when do I have agency and when am I kind
• 19:44
  of giving my agency away, you know?
• 19:48
  I well, that confusion of, of, of what is actually a, an
• 19:52
  imminent danger versus things. It's kind of like I said
• 19:55
  earlier, sometimes it's just when I feel like I'm not getting
• 19:57
  my way and that fear of losing something I have or not getting
• 20:01
  something I want. I can confuse those trivial
• 20:05
  things with like something that's an actual imminent danger
• 20:09
  in terms of my physical reaction and how I start to process it.
• 20:13
  Like, I mean, if somebody kind of gets in the way of something
• 20:15
  I want to do sometimes, you know, be it my girlfriend or the
• 20:19
  person in traffic or, you know, sometimes a customer service
• 20:22
  person. And I and I can feel, I have
• 20:24
  like a physical sensation in the back of my head which sort of
• 20:28
  tells me, hey, you're about to, you know, yell at somebody or do
• 20:32
  something irrational. And most of the time it stops me
• 20:34
  from doing it. But you know, I would say like
• 20:36
  25% of the time I kind of muscle through that sensation and still
• 20:40
  sort of act out, you know? Yeah, and, and I think it's the,
• 20:44
  it's not just like, I mean, there's a reason I I say it's
• 20:47
  confusion, but we're, you know, there's a part of us as human
• 20:51
  that's evolved. You know, that prefrontal cortex
• 20:55
  has evolved significantly as far as like I understand, you know,
• 21:00
  we, we are best at giving meaning to things.
• 21:03
  And, you know, we can kind of look to the future and we can
• 21:06
  look to the past where we learn from it and, and, and look to
• 21:09
  the future to kind of apply things and invent things.
• 21:12
  I mean, we're, we're pretty amazing like that.
• 21:15
  The the and we don't want to take meaning away from things
• 21:18
  because the meaning in, in life is what makes it at least I
• 21:22
  think so rich. You know, I, I, I, I make that
• 21:25
  my relationship with my kids and my wife has as a has, has depth
• 21:30
  and weight and it and, and a richness to it.
• 21:34
  I don't want to not do that. But that meaning making part of
• 21:37
  us is what can also get us in trouble when we're not in, you
• 21:40
  know, finding ways to garner control over it because, you
• 21:44
  know, something will happen. You know, I do consulting and
• 21:46
  someone called me and said, you know, we have to end this
• 21:48
  consulting contract at the end of the month.
• 21:50
  You know, I could go into like, OK, now I'm, you know, I can go
• 21:54
  down the road of I'm not going to get that paycheck now, you
• 21:58
  know, and the way that I could react to it internally is as if
• 22:01
  I'm going to like an imminent danger.
• 22:03
  Now, if I never made money again, there's some potential
• 22:07
  imminent danger way down the road, you know, but no one's
• 22:10
  going to knock on the door and take my house away and all the
• 22:12
  food out of the pantry and all that stuff like today.
• 22:14
  But that's the way I'll I'll react to it not only like that's
• 22:17
  going to happen. Someone's going to knock on the
• 22:19
  door, take everything out of my bank account, everything out of
• 22:21
  our pantry and then tell me I'm never going to be able to earn
• 22:25
  for my family again. Like that's not true, right.
• 22:29
  And even if it was a truth that could happen, it's several steps
• 22:33
  down the, the, IT, it's like way in the future weeks, months,
• 22:37
  year more, you know, And so when I get in that reaction where
• 22:42
  it's like I'm in a survival state based on something that
• 22:45
  might happen and might. And it even if it did is down
• 22:48
  the road, then I actually miss out on what the, the, the steps
• 22:53
  are that I could use to solve it today.
• 22:55
  And I miss out on a quality of life.
• 22:57
  So there's this kind of, you know, balance that we want to
• 23:00
  build between like, we don't want to just make everything
• 23:03
  neutral and be like, Oh, I don't care about anything.
• 23:05
  You know, you don't want to, I don't want to live life like
• 23:07
  that. You know, I don't, I don't, I, I
• 23:10
  want things to, I mean, when they hurt, I don't want them to
• 23:14
  hurt. But when things hurt, it mean to
• 23:16
  me, it means that like somebody dies.
• 23:19
  I don't want to just be like, you know, somebody I love, they
• 23:21
  don't want to be like, let's go have lunch.
• 23:23
  You know, it's great. You know, I want to be like, I
• 23:26
  want to hurt. You know, that's a price that we
• 23:28
  pay for loving them. And again, in it, I don't want
• 23:33
  to, but that means that we've given this meaning and but if we
• 23:35
  apply that meaning to this like a these imaginary scenarios that
• 23:39
  may or may not happen and way down the road now we're, you
• 23:45
  know, it's old male, you know, So what is it?
• 23:47
  Do you hear this in, in 12 step recovery, like fear is borrowing
• 23:51
  or worry is borrowing pain from the future, You know, and that's
• 23:54
  just like, what am I doing? And so, you know, I, and I
• 23:58
  think, you know, in the, to take it into some of the 12 step
• 24:01
  literature, you know, Bill Wilson in the, in the 12:00 and
• 24:04
  12:00, I think really defined this well in the beginning of
• 24:07
  the four step, you know, in the first couple paragraphs, he
• 24:10
  talks about all of the instincts that we have, you know, a
• 24:13
  survival instinct, the sexual instinct, the material instinct,
• 24:17
  you know, social instinct that, you know, we need to be able to
• 24:20
  make money and build things. We need to be able to have sex
• 24:23
  to to and and love to to like build families and and populate
• 24:28
  the world. We need a survival instinct for
• 24:30
  if we're, you know, in danger, we need a social instinct to
• 24:35
  feel connected and a community. But it's when he goes on to say
• 24:38
  that like most of our emotional problems, and I'm not going to
• 24:41
  get this accorded, most of our emotional problems are are are
• 24:44
  because of misdirected instinct. You know, I need too much money
• 24:47
  or I need it. You know, what am I putting at
• 24:49
  the top of my list? If, if, if I wake up in the
• 24:51
  morning and money is the most important thing to me.
• 24:54
  Now that most important thing to me is almost like my God and I
• 24:57
  become or my master and I become a slave to it.
• 25:00
  You know, he wrote about this stuff, you know, whatever the
• 25:03
  1520 years after they first got sober and they were seeing
• 25:06
  people that had put down the drink and now they were acting
• 25:09
  out sexually. They were acting out weird, you
• 25:11
  know, doing weird stuff with money.
• 25:12
  You know, I don't know what weird stuff with money means,
• 25:15
  but you guys might know, like some of your audience might get
• 25:18
  that they're just like, they were just being weird.
• 25:20
  I'm sure, right. And so they're like, what, what,
• 25:22
  what are these causes and conditions?
• 25:24
  And then when you go on into the 6th and 7th step, especially,
• 25:27
  you know, he's right. And I'm thinking about this more
• 25:29
  from an academic standpoint, not just for addicts and Alcoholics,
• 25:32
  but for a process for people. I, I think everybody should read
• 25:35
  this. You know that looking at where
• 25:39
  misdirected instinct in the form of character defects are coming
• 25:42
  up and you know, looking at some of these character defects or
• 25:46
  liabilities in some situations are just that they're
• 25:49
  liabilities or defects, but in other situations they're assets.
• 25:52
  It's like, where are we applying them?
• 25:54
  You know, anger is not a terrible thing, right?
• 25:56
  We feel like we experience anger and it might give us the energy
• 25:59
  to establish a boundary. But if I take that to rage, you
• 26:03
  know, somebody insults me or I perceive insult and and maybe
• 26:09
  they were just making a joke and I, you know, walk out in the
• 26:11
  parking lot and, you know, cut the stems off their tires.
• 26:15
  That's like a misdirected instinct.
• 26:17
  You know, that doesn't, I've never done that, by the way.
• 26:20
  I've thought about doing stuff like that.
• 26:21
  But you know, like it's, it's an overreaction, you know, a
• 26:25
  disproportional response. And I think whenever there's we
• 26:28
  look at our responses, that disproportional response, it it,
• 26:32
  I think it shows that we've gone into some state of fight or
• 26:36
  flight into a survival mode or an instant instincts are about
• 26:39
  survival. And we're choosing from that
• 26:42
  rather than like, experiencing it and then making our choices
• 26:45
  based on what's best for us and those around us.
• 26:48
  Yeah. So Ryan, what I'm, what I think
• 26:50
  I'm hearing anyway, it sounds like the work, so to speak,
• 26:54
  quote UN quote, is kind of like trying to find a way to exist in
• 26:57
  the in the middle, right? You know, not the extremes or
• 27:00
  not the, you know, lack of sensitivity, if you will, but
• 27:03
  maybe trying to find that middle ground where we can react
• 27:06
  appropriately. What do you think about that?
• 27:09
  Yeah, I think that's the case. And, you know, as we go on in
• 27:12
  life, you know, we're going to, you know, especially, I know you
• 27:15
  guys talk to a big recovery audience.
• 27:17
  You know, I mean, the, the, I think a lot of the last part of
• 27:20
  the 12 steps is that practice these principles and all of our
• 27:22
  affairs, which to me goes, you know, means go build a life to
• 27:27
  practice these things then, right.
• 27:28
  So someone comes in and they're able to like, you know, they're
• 27:31
  in treatment, they're in their meetings, they're going to a
• 27:33
  lot. You know, they're like in there,
• 27:35
  they're doing all the things right.
• 27:37
  And and they're in their bubble and then and, and maybe they're
• 27:40
  single and they haven't really been working and, you know,
• 27:44
  they're able to practice these principles and then all of a
• 27:47
  sudden they get in a relationship.
• 27:48
  Now there's something else for that to bump up against, right?
• 27:51
  So they're probably going to go and even if they found the
• 27:53
  middle right, or balance, and that's another thing.
• 27:57
  Balance isn't like, I'm standing still, you know, balance is
• 28:00
  like, whoa, you know, I might get in and I might even touch
• 28:04
  the ground. And, and then then maybe they
• 28:06
  get a new career, they go back to school and they've got
• 28:09
  something else for that to bump up against.
• 28:10
  And they've got all these people in their lives and
• 28:12
  responsibilities. And so not all, there's two
• 28:15
  things happening. They got more places for those
• 28:17
  reactions to happen. And, you know, they also
• 28:22
  generally become more sensitive to their emotions.
• 28:27
  You know, I, I went through something recently, something
• 28:29
  happened. You know, when I have something
• 28:30
  these days that like really puts me in fear or, or I, I, you
• 28:35
  know, I've got enough tools and people, mostly the people around
• 28:40
  me that it doesn't last very long.
• 28:41
  You know, it doesn't mean that the problem is not there, but
• 28:44
  I'm not having that overreaction to the problem, you know, and I
• 28:48
  was, I was, it, it was probably 12 hours, maybe a day.
• 28:52
  And I was just like, I was like, Oh my God, this is like when I
• 28:55
  first got sober before that, like I, I, I was just terrified.
• 28:59
  And looking back at it, it was nowhere near that, you know, as
• 29:04
  my, one of my mentors said to me, you got problems and places
• 29:07
  you didn't have places before. You know it was.
• 29:10
  Like. You know, it's like I, I didn't
• 29:12
  have a family, I didn't have responsibilities like this.
• 29:14
  And like really this, the problem and solution was nothing
• 29:18
  compared to what I've been through in the past, But I'm,
• 29:20
  I'm more sensitive to it. You know, the pain comes sooner,
• 29:23
  which is a a gift because you know, it used to be like driving
• 29:28
  down the highway and you know, you go off on those rumble
• 29:31
  strips, you know, and you hear that and you're supposed to get
• 29:34
  back on the road like I used to in life, feel those rumble
• 29:36
  strips and feel them again. And then I'd like be in the
• 29:39
  ditch and it'd be rolled over and the car be on fire.
• 29:41
  And then I'd be like, Hey, can I have some help?
• 29:43
  You know, like now that noise thankfully comes a little
• 29:48
  sooner. And so I think the work is,
• 29:51
  yeah, finding a way to be in the in the middle.
• 29:53
  But more most importantly, being able to recognize when you're
• 29:56
  out of that middle that you've if, if we're going to use the
• 29:59
  word middle or balance that you've declared this is the life
• 30:03
  I'm living with the principles I'm standing on.
• 30:05
  And I can recognize when I'm in reaction sooner and return out
• 30:10
  of reaction quicker. Now, that doesn't mean if I'm
• 30:13
  really sad or upset about something that that goes away,
• 30:17
  but if I can start to recognize what's the overreaction to it,
• 30:22
  you know, and, and, and remove and, and work through the stress
• 30:26
  around the stress, then I can lean into whatever I'm dealing
• 30:30
  with because we're going to have problems in pain.
• 30:32
  You know, as a wise man once said to me, you know you're
• 30:35
  going to get sober and then things break and people die
• 30:37
  every day, you know? It's part of life.
• 30:41
  And you know, one of the things I've heard you talk about too
• 30:44
  is, is using these tools, you know, if you're in recovery,
• 30:47
  whatever form, if it's 12 step and using that and prayer and
• 30:50
  meditation. And I want to hear a little bit
• 30:52
  about your it's yoga nidra, right?
• 30:53
  That that's what you do. Is that what it's called?
• 30:56
  Yeah, I mean, that's one of the forms I think that's, I think
• 30:58
  you, you know, I'm biased a little bit because I've trained
• 31:00
  it and used it. But I mean, there, there's also
• 31:02
  been some studies directly around the, the yoga nidra that
• 31:05
  showed a, it, it in that specific type of meditation, it
• 31:07
  showed a 60, I think it was like a 65% increase in endogenous
• 31:11
  dopamine during the practice, which is really, I'm not a
• 31:15
  scientist, so I, I'm not going to be able to take you down all
• 31:18
  that. But there's, there's some
• 31:19
  research out there that people can find.
• 31:22
  What I like about it is Nedra means sleep.
• 31:25
  So it's a yogic sleep. It's a sleep based meditation.
• 31:29
  So you do it mostly you can do it sitting, but most people do
• 31:32
  it laying down and you just listen.
• 31:33
  It's a, it's not, it's not necessarily to replace all other
• 31:37
  forms of meditation, but it's a technique that kind of
• 31:40
  disappears. The technique you don't have to
• 31:42
  really think about anything. And it's kind of designed to
• 31:45
  take through some like brief little movements and things and
• 31:48
  then down into this like relaxing state to take your
• 31:52
  brain to the, the, the brain waves to the levels that they
• 31:56
  are in sleep, you know, and in, in sleep, in those deeper brain
• 32:01
  waves is where we're, you know, in, in slower brain waves in
• 32:03
  general is where we're more creative.
• 32:06
  And I, I, you know, I, I don't have the anecdotally, I would
• 32:09
  think that, you know, for me, a representation of that as we
• 32:13
  dream, you know, and your dreams are like, why can be at least
• 32:16
  minor, They can be wild. I can be anywhere in the world
• 32:19
  or outside of this world with people I know or don't know, you
• 32:22
  know, doing all, like doing one thing one second and something
• 32:26
  completely different, you know, like eating dinner with a famous
• 32:30
  person for a second, then like flying on a crocodile, Max,
• 32:33
  right? Like it can be that's pretty
• 32:35
  creative or like kids are very creative, you know, and
• 32:38
  imaginative. And so when we can get into
• 32:41
  those lower brain wave states, you know, we can start being
• 32:46
  more creative. And that's important because
• 32:50
  when we're in these higher brain wave States and all these
• 32:53
  thoughts are going, we're just grabbing onto the thoughts that
• 32:55
  we've had before. It's like, I know what to do in
• 32:57
  this scenario. I'm just going to do the same
• 32:59
  thing again. And we're not even actively
• 33:01
  thinking that, you know, we kind of become these robots just
• 33:06
  plagiarizing from our past. And when we can slow down and
• 33:10
  there's this yogic principle I like called stealing leads to
• 33:13
  seeing the more that I can still, the easier I can see
• 33:17
  what's happening because what I, you know, what I see happening
• 33:22
  is impacted and, and, and kind of by my historical, you know,
• 33:27
  my memory, my imagination, my kind of pre programming.
• 33:31
  You know, it's like attorneys will tell you, criminal lawyers
• 33:34
  will tell you eyewitness testimony is like the worst
• 33:37
  because you have four people, they'll see four different
• 33:40
  things, you know, just based on their own perception.
• 33:44
  And as we move through time, our perception changes.
• 33:47
  We have different memories of our past.
• 33:50
  You know, you could, the two of you could have travelled
• 33:52
  together 10 years ago and you'll both have a different, you might
• 33:55
  have a different memory of where you ate or what day it was
• 33:58
  nothing major. Just to recognize that we're
• 34:01
  kind of adding more perception and, and distortion to our, our
• 34:06
  memory as time goes on. And so I, I, this yoga nidra is
• 34:13
  a way to really kind of slow those brain waves and kind of
• 34:15
  get to that sleeping state. You know, I think he coined it,
• 34:20
  but Andrew did it and we talked about on the podcast, Huberman
• 34:22
  really has brought it forward to another form.
• 34:25
  That's not so much 'cause some people don't like, you know, the
• 34:28
  term yoga, whether it's because of a spiritual practice or
• 34:33
  something else, or, you know, it's more Eastern than Western
• 34:37
  And, and that's fine. My, my yoga, the people that I
• 34:40
  learned it from who are Indian said, you know, call it whatever
• 34:43
  you want, you know, like get people to, to find ways to be
• 34:46
  still in the ways that they can. So there's another form called
• 34:50
  non sleep deep rest, which is basically the yoga nidra without
• 34:53
  and without kind of using intention.
• 34:55
  And you know, there's a ton of YouTube videos out there now
• 34:59
  and, and apps that you can do a great one is my friend comedy
• 35:02
  Desai has an app called I, I think it's called I am yoga
• 35:05
  Nidra. If you look her name up, it's a
• 35:08
  like 4 box and, and use some great, great yoga Nidra and NSDR
• 35:14
  in there. And you just lay down, listen to
• 35:15
  it. And the idea is that now you can
• 35:18
  kind of bring that sleeping state into the waking state,
• 35:21
  meaning bringing those slower brain waves into the into your
• 35:25
  daily life. You know, another by product of
• 35:28
  it is it's like taking a nap. So you kind of get the benefits
• 35:32
  of sleep. So people that don't sleep well
• 35:34
  or, you know, find themselves in stressed out situations
• 35:39
  throughout the day. As you practice this over time,
• 35:42
  it kind of can help you build that, you know, not only get
• 35:46
  into the slower brain waves, but kind of build capacity into in
• 35:49
  your parasympathetic nervous system, which is what allows us
• 35:52
  to come out of fight or flight. Absolutely.
• 35:55
  I mean, whatever tools, whatever tools.
• 35:57
  You use I really, you know, I like for people to set up a, a,
• 36:00
  a practice of, of tools that are both proactive and reactive.
• 36:04
  So proactive are the tools that you schedule.
• 36:08
  So people that go to therapy, go to meetings, they work out, you
• 36:11
  know, maybe they, they do a meditation every morning.
• 36:13
  They go to church and meet with friends.
• 36:15
  You have it scheduled, right? You do this on Tuesday.
• 36:18
  You don't know if you're going to need it on Tuesday, but
• 36:20
  you're doing it anyway. And it kind of builds capacity
• 36:23
  for you, right? You might not be in crisis, but
• 36:24
  you're going to therapy to grow. You know, I always tell people
• 36:28
  the second best time to be in therapy is when you're in
• 36:31
  crisis. The best time is when you're
• 36:33
  not, right? You can work through this stuff
• 36:35
  without that. And then reactive tools are the
• 36:38
  things that when you recognize that you're maybe in that
• 36:41
  heightened state or overreacting.
• 36:44
  And I don't mean overreacting in a way that like someone uses
• 36:47
  that to say, oh, beer, just overreacting.
• 36:49
  I mean, like there's a disproportionate response.
• 36:52
  Those are tools that you can employ quickly.
• 36:54
  Like you're probably, if you recognize that and you're in a
• 36:56
  meeting, you're probably not going to lay down on the ground
• 36:58
  and listen to a 30 minute meditation or call your
• 36:59
  therapist, right? You're not you're not going to
• 37:01
  do that. These can be very short, like
• 37:03
  breathing techniques that people can use.
• 37:05
  Sometimes there are things that could be employed in a scheduled
• 37:08
  or deployed in a scheduled state, like proactive.
• 37:11
  But the proactive things help you raise that capacity to be
• 37:14
  able to experience that discomfort, allows you to be
• 37:17
  able to still so that you can see it just improves your
• 37:20
  overall Wellness. And the reactive are, you know,
• 37:24
  I'm way out of balance. How do I get back to that middle
• 37:27
  that Justin was talking about? That's exactly what.
• 37:30
  That's exactly what I was wanting you to talk about is,
• 37:32
  you know, we, we can have these scheduled like you said and have
• 37:35
  our, you know, our maintenance and our spiritual maintenance
• 37:39
  program, whatever. But to be, to have these tools.
• 37:41
  Can you elaborate a little bit on some of these tools to use in
• 37:46
  a reactionary fashion, like if you're in a meeting or in
• 37:48
  traffic or in some situation where you just kind of feel
• 37:50
  yourself getting, you know, disproportionately angered or
• 37:53
  dysregulated? Yeah.
• 37:55
  I mean, I think another thing that that that comes out of, I
• 38:00
  mean, it doesn't, it probably was around a lot longer than
• 38:02
  that. But I like the way that he
• 38:04
  writes about it in, in, in the 12 step literature is to, or the
• 38:09
  Alcoholics Anonymous literature is to pause when agitated,
• 38:11
  right? And I really think that if I
• 38:14
  could have a superpower, it wouldn't be to fly.
• 38:17
  It wouldn't be to be invisible. I really, if I could literally
• 38:23
  every time pause when I'm agitated and I'm pretty good at
• 38:28
  it, but not great all the time. I, I think that would, and if
• 38:33
  everybody had that, I think it would, it would drastically
• 38:35
  change their lives, right? Just kind of putting some space
• 38:39
  between that thought and, and action.
• 38:43
  Most, I, I think a lot of people and you probably, I know you
• 38:47
  come across them, you know, especially in, in addiction
• 38:51
  recovery, you know, most of the problems come from impulsive
• 38:54
  behaviors right there. Even if they've gotten into
• 38:57
  recovery and they've been sober, there's a moment where they say,
• 38:59
  you know, screw it. And that screw it is like an
• 39:01
  impulsive thing. So anything that we can do to
• 39:04
  put pause in, in in between there, just pausing is hard
• 39:09
  because if we're in that state, you know, if like intellectually
• 39:13
  pausing, if we're, if we're in that state, if someone's like
• 39:16
  super reactive and you just tell them to relax, what, what
• 39:20
  they're going to punch you in the face.
• 39:21
  Probably right. Or, or some people will.
• 39:24
  It doesn't, it doesn't help. So it's not just deactivating
• 39:27
  the that's called the sympathetic nervous system that
• 39:30
  drives that fight or flight. It's, it's activating the
• 39:33
  parasympathetic nervous system. So doing something actively to
• 39:37
  bring us toward that out of everything is falling apart and
• 39:42
  towards everything's OK. I think breath in some way is
• 39:45
  one of the quickest ways to do that.
• 39:49
  And because if you are in a fight or flight state, breathing
• 39:55
  generally isn't long, slow, deep and full just because it's kind
• 39:59
  of like getting ready to run. You're going to get ready to
• 40:02
  maybe hold and maybe the people are holding their breath or
• 40:04
  they're breathing really fast. And I think there's some sort of
• 40:07
  signal that's been sent that says.
• 40:09
  Like, hey, I'm in danger. Get the body ready for it,
• 40:11
  right? If you can slow down your
• 40:13
  breathing and especially your exhale, get a really long
• 40:18
  exhale. And if you can do that a few
• 40:19
  times, I think it sends another signal to your nervous system
• 40:22
  that says, Hey, if I'm, if I can do this, then I must not be in
• 40:26
  danger. Like physical, immediate
• 40:28
  physical danger, right? Because you're, you're giving
• 40:31
  yourself a little bit of that time and it can really bring
• 40:33
  somebody from here to here really quickly.
• 40:37
  So, you know, there's all kinds of breath out there, box
• 40:40
  breathing, you know, different 4 count and eight count breaths.
• 40:46
  I like just taking a slow inhale through your nose, like really
• 40:49
  softly and then exhaling as like the longest, softest exhale you
• 40:55
  can do through your mouth. That exhale like really can
• 40:58
  bring us down if you need to like purse your lips that can
• 41:02
  kind of slow the the exhale out and then do that for seven
• 41:07
  breaths, right. 10 breaths. You know, sometimes it's hard to
• 41:10
  say breathe for 10 minutes or two minutes or whatever it is.
• 41:13
  I mean, but most people can take 7 breaths, right?
• 41:16
  I can kind of for me, that kind of tricks my mind and that's a
• 41:19
  great thing to do getting, you know, changing your location
• 41:23
  that move a muscle, change a thought is, is real like getting
• 41:26
  up out of your seat and walking outside.
• 41:29
  If you're, if you're inside and you're like in meetings like
• 41:32
  that, you know, not like this one, but like on zoom meetings
• 41:34
  and you're really stressed out, like take a break, walk outside,
• 41:37
  look at the trees, look at the sky.
• 41:39
  You start to like, look at you get this more wide angle thing
• 41:43
  for me that helps me see that like I'm pretty insignificant
• 41:47
  compared to the rest. And I don't mean insignificant
• 41:49
  and like I don't have worth and value.
• 41:51
  I mean, just like one of my teachers always says there's a
• 41:55
  hundred. What is it 100?
• 41:57
  And or 1.4 million earths could fit in the sun.
• 42:02
  Like think about that for a second and be like, OK, if
• 42:05
  that's true, like whatever, I just like that guy on the zoom
• 42:09
  meeting that looked at me funny. Like does it really mean
• 42:13
  anything in the scheme of things?
• 42:15
  And, and, and, and just getting outside and almost a mentor, my
• 42:19
  school getting small, like just kind of looking around.
• 42:22
  You start to kind of see space in between things and notice
• 42:25
  that. Just look at the trees and the
• 42:26
  birds and, and breathe, you know, go for a walk, call a
• 42:30
  friend, you know, I mean, or if you, if you can't, if you can't
• 42:35
  get out, you're in a meeting and it's happening and you can't and
• 42:37
  you and you've done the breath just kind of notice like moving
• 42:40
  from I'm pissed off or I'm angry or I'm hurt to what am I
• 42:44
  experiencing in my body? And might just be, I feel my
• 42:48
  feet on the floor. I feel my butt in the chair,
• 42:52
  feel the air on my skin. My heart's racing.
• 42:56
  My skin's hot and, and I mean, doing that sounds so simple, but
• 43:01
  it starts moving. It starts moving us from I'm
• 43:04
  angry to I'm experiencing these sensations.
• 43:07
  And now rather than identifying as the anger, I'm disidentifying
• 43:13
  from it. I can see that I'm experiencing
• 43:15
  it and then I know that every emotional state that I've
• 43:19
  experienced has passed at some point.
• 43:22
  So it might stay there. But and that's kind of letting
• 43:24
  go, right? Letting go isn't that
• 43:27
  something's gone and said that I don't have a grip on it and it
• 43:29
  doesn't have a grip on me. So if I am the one experiencing
• 43:32
  and now I can go, oh, I've got agency and control.
• 43:35
  I can sit with this. I can move, I can take a breath.
• 43:38
  I can this isn't going to hurt me.
• 43:40
  I can start to recognize things and these are practices.
• 43:43
  It, it, it, it, it takes time. Some people, especially in early
• 43:46
  recovery, don't have that muscle yet.
• 43:48
  You know, and you and you and you build it over over time, and
• 43:50
  then you build it and then you start building a life and you
• 43:53
  have more things for your stuff to bump up against.
• 43:56
  And then you got to practice it again.
• 43:58
  Yeah. This is great, Ryan.
• 44:01
  Man, I feel like we could. We could keep doing this for
• 44:04
  hours man. Yeah, I mean, so yeah, we could
• 44:08
  do this for hours and I'd love to do this for hours and I would
• 44:11
  we'd like, I want to have you back on here for a follow up.
• 44:13
  We'd. Love to do.
• 44:14
  That, but we're kind of up against it.
• 44:16
  What for now, tell our listeners you know how to how to find you
• 44:20
  and what you're up to and give it, you know, some specifics on
• 44:23
  how to reach you. Yeah, I, I, I do some one-on-one
• 44:27
  coaching and, and and therapy. People can find me on my website
• 44:34
  or on Instagram, my websites, ryanswab.com.
• 44:36
  If you go to the and, and I'm I'm I'm working on a a book that
• 44:40
  will be hopefully coming out later this year or in mid 2026.
• 44:46
  And so right now I'm I'm mainly focused on putting out as much,
• 44:49
  you know, a lot of content to just that's no cost that can
• 44:52
  help people. So you can find me on Instagram.
• 44:54
  It's Ryan dot suave. If you go to my website,
• 44:57
  whichisryansuave.com, you can sign up for this free course I
• 45:03
  have. It's a six day e-mail course.
• 45:05
  It's got some of the stuff we talked about today, but it's
• 45:07
  like really kind of got some actionable tools for people to
• 45:10
  use. It's again, no cost.
• 45:14
  And then I'm starting to put out longer form stuff on YouTube.
• 45:17
  You can find me there. It's RJ suave SOAVE, or if you
• 45:20
  just Google me, you can, you can, you can find that.
• 45:23
  So yeah, mostly I'm, I'm really focused on that.
• 45:26
  And then I also do some I, I, I, I like to keep my clinical chops
• 45:30
  up and, and try to help some people that way.
• 45:32
  So I do, I, I still do a bit of, of, of that.
• 45:36
  I also like work with groups and do speaking engagements and, and
• 45:39
  stuff like that. So I'm pretty easy to find on
• 45:41
  that website. People can e-mail me directly
• 45:43
  through there and I'll be the one responding.
• 45:45
  It won't be in AI chatbot. Awesome.
• 45:48
  That's fantastic. Swab SOASOAVE.
• 45:53
  Yeah, like the this is perfect for like the wine, not the
• 45:56
  shampoo. I hear you.
• 45:59
  Well, hey, man, I thank you so much for being here.
• 46:01
  Thank you to Kendall for connecting us five years ago.
• 46:04
  And thank you, Justin, for being here.
• 46:06
  Absolutely. Thanks Justin man, nice to meet
• 46:08
  you. Man, just can't thank you
• 46:09
  enough. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
• 46:10
  Lot of fun. Thank you.
• 46:11
  Awesome. Cool.
• 46:13
  If you liked what you heard today or just want to know more,
• 46:16
  give us a call on 9196708119 or visit us at
• 46:21
  newwatersrecovery.com. Thank you.