Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Si Hart & Frazer Gregory about Twitter’s choice of The Two Doctors (1/3)

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Talks to Si Hart & Frazer Gregory about Twitter’s choice of The Two Doctors (1/3) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:40
Hello, and welcome back to a hamster with a blunt penknife.
0:44
The Doctor Who commentary podcast today is a special day.
0:49
It's a bit self-congratulatory, but today is the one-year
0:56
anniversary that myself Simon, heart and Fraser Gregory first
1:02
came together and I've met many many wonderful people through
1:09
This podcast, it's actually been fairly life-changing experience,
1:13
overall, my new partner through podcasting, but the friendship
1:19
that endured through this recording, which is the two
1:24
doctors has been truly astonishing, some people you
1:29
connect with and there's no sense of ego and no sense of
1:35
anyone trying to take control of the Friendship, it's just
1:38
support. I love Love and kindness.
1:41
And when I want the three very, very different people.
1:46
Yeah, this is where that friendship sprung from and this
1:53
was our first recording together SC.
1:55
Only one that I haven't brought out of what we've recorded,
1:58
mostly because we had some terrible technical issues.
2:01
I knew there would be some editing involved, so there's a
2:04
little bit is little bit choppier than usual, then I
2:07
apologize. But also as well it's the at the
2:14
period where I really didn't understand about audio quality.
2:18
So if Simon Fraser sound a bit tinny, that's because that's,
2:22
that's the old hamster. I recall on Zoom.
2:24
Now this is back in the old day when I recorded on anchor but
2:29
this is a massive kiss to my wonderful friends, Simon heart
2:34
and phrase Gregory love you very much and yeah this is where it
2:39
all. Started.
2:41
I'm still with the blue pen Road, open to hamster with a
2:48
blunt. Penknife Doctor Who comment with
2:50
podcast. Probably not the voice of
2:53
expecting, but let's move on today.
2:58
I'm joined by not one, but two very special guests.
3:02
We have the wonderful Jewel 40. Hello Joe, hello.
3:07
It's lovely to be here. And the equally, wonderful.
3:11
And magnificent say hot. Say hello, say hello.
3:16
Either of you guys have. Don't believe I'm back again.
3:19
I can't believe neither of these have done the joke.
3:23
Oh, that for later on. There you are.
3:28
I've only got one thing to say, and that's darling.
3:35
Hmm. For the benefit of the people to
3:39
whom this is 10:00 in the morning.
3:41
While haven't had a drink would just like the night with her gun
3:45
and obviously, from the ill effects of a covid jab.
3:48
So, we're just happy to be coming together to talk about
3:54
the wonderful story that we are going to discuss today.
3:58
So what are we discussing today? Gentlemen, so I are discussing
4:02
thanks to a Twitter poll which I feel was um Unfairly skewed
4:08
against the Grim Williams years. We could have had two, fantastic
4:13
six, pulses to talk about. But no, we're going for a deep
4:18
dive into the Colin, Baker era and the two doctors.
4:24
Excuse me, that is a fantastic story.
4:27
What are you talking about? Well, we'll find out shortly.
4:32
What were the other options Fraser?
4:34
What were the other options on the polls for the benefit of?
4:36
Was that to see the call. We decided to record together as
4:40
a threesome, well than duet in order to decide which story
4:45
we're going to cover. We put 3 out there to Twitter,
4:48
we asked Twitter to decide between the two doctors, the
4:52
invasion of time and the Armageddon factor and the two
4:56
doctors was the eventual winner. So here we are.
4:59
All right, so there's obviously some Colin Baker, love out
5:01
there. I one person commented, I
5:03
remember that they wanted to hear like a positive appraisal
5:07
of this story because they want to have their mind.
5:10
So I'm coming at this all positive because I gave this a
5:13
whopping 10 out of 10 on my blog.
5:16
Wow, okay well we'll see how the rest of us go there we will
5:26
decide you think that bought about was split the green
5:30
Williamsport. I think I saw a light being yeah
5:33
because if they should have time was leading for quite some time.
5:36
So, maybe if it had just been a to two-horse race, who knows?
5:42
It was closed. So that's the whole thing.
5:44
It was a close by all three, Yeah.
5:47
Yeah other side people will just have to wait for my hot takes on
5:54
the valid ins and Lila and Gallifrey and bruza and the
5:59
brick Tardis. Well that was our twist at the
6:02
end he actually told anyone sorry.
6:16
Time to get saved the best till last.
6:21
Maybe I love that one. Wow.
6:26
Are we ready to make start? I certainly am.
6:29
I am raring to go. Alright, so I will count as in
6:37
there if you already Young 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and play.
6:48
I was hoping to a burst of color here on way I can remember
6:54
because I'm slightly older than both of you, seeing the twin
6:57
dilemma for the first time and shouting to my mum, who was in
7:01
the kitchen to say, mom, look, the doctor smiling in the title
7:07
things, but some side of Animation in the face and it was
7:11
just, wow, that was really cool. It is full on this like that.
7:16
Music is it's like faster than the Peter Davison tile sequence
7:21
isn't him. Well, well, well, look who it
7:27
is. And right opening with the old
7:32
doctor. I think look at all, but it's a
7:34
fun and beta. Do you reckon it was no way they
7:38
could have kind of continued it in black and white, is there?
7:41
It always is a shame, a slips into color.
7:48
They could have sustained that for not in 1985, everyone would
7:52
have complained, is there something wrong with my
7:54
television set? I think that might be but for
8:01
the better isolated I'm just going to come straight.
8:06
I can say about his costume is one of my favorites.
8:08
Hey, this is the sixth. I can't think of another doctor
8:14
is more summed up by what he wears his doctor.
8:18
Very your I gotta think of a man that does these commentaries
8:21
have more controversial takes, it's very odd because I'm at the
8:27
time. So, when In this went out, I was
8:30
nine. And so I would have been eight
8:33
when the Twin dilemma came on and he was universally mocked at
8:38
school for his costume. No one liked it at all.
8:42
It's very strange. It seems put off, lots of the
8:46
kids that I knew from watching watching the show.
8:50
What and I think that's something this kind of stock.
8:53
Hasn't it between how he was portrayed in this window?
8:57
I tried to murder Perry. Why and how he was dressed at
9:01
the end of it. I like I've heard a lot of
9:04
people say that he didn't really get much of a chance like to
9:07
make his mob because there was just like such a bold statement.
9:12
Surface type in Imagine imagine a regular person sticking on the
9:18
TV and you know, I hadn't watched Doctor Who for a while.
9:20
I'm going to stick that on me. Have a look.
9:22
And then you see the doctor dressed up like Ronald McDonald?
9:26
Like is a bit of a it's like a bit of a put off I think.
9:58
And then you don't really know who she is because you're so
10:01
used to seeing it. And it was so great.
10:25
Everyone else's costume too much because you couldn't feel her
10:31
red listening, one of the handbooks in it.
10:34
Cover the color range that the screen gift was stuck in it, you
10:40
couldn't have example. Everyone dressed in black velvet
10:43
and Colin coming in. When he's the Congress will be
10:46
too much that at any. So everyone else is costumes in
10:49
his stories meat and quite be quite colorful quite great as
10:52
well. Is that why everyone's dressed
10:53
so guarantees that why Perry's in that like, right leotard.
10:58
Yeah, so if you sort of look at how he's outfit in the mark of
11:02
the Rani which we'll talk about, Then that's where it's supposed
11:07
to be Blended in but it's not it's quite frightening, lunch
11:10
break, yellows and pinks. And it's because the range of
11:13
color that become a could accommodate needed to be in a
11:17
certain level. Otherwise, they'll just hush Mm.
11:21
Oh yay. What we've just seen shock.
11:23
I for the first time. Surely surely both of you love.
11:30
It's a really broad performance, isn't it?
11:32
He's great fun. Yes, with that scene that we've
11:35
just missed, talking about the, the direction, really.
11:39
Let Stan there's a great joke with the doctor sensing the
11:43
juice. Yeah.
11:44
But it's all ruined because you see it all before it happens.
11:48
Yeah. So the punchline is actually
11:50
like you used to The punchline coming real with a flower shit.
11:54
Yeah you know I like these sets though.
11:58
I do like the space station sets up.
12:00
A lot of people say they're a bit Bland Look who's here?
12:16
So good and they're quite a long time.
12:20
I've been to be sort of worried and that actually she's just
12:24
playing server land in this but actually she's not she's a bit
12:28
more subtle than she was in Blake's 7 and she is looking
12:32
after the what am I thinking of? I don't know.
12:40
She's looking at the character and she's not just doing this
12:43
Bland flourishes and And the sort of, but now evil.
12:46
She there's quite a thoughtful performance, I think, in it.
12:49
So I was not subtle about maximum power.
12:55
I don't know what you mean. That's a very simple and perfect
12:58
performance, but she says in the commentary that she thinks, he's
13:04
basically just giving the same performers and Colin, Baker,
13:07
interrupts, her and says, it's not the same Performance Hall,
13:10
you know, you're a, like you said, a lot more subtle a bit
13:14
more, I see. Yes, definitely.
13:18
And I think she's quite hampered by the awful costume that she's
13:23
saddled with, which wasn't designed for her.
13:25
Because I don't know whether you know, she wasn't the first
13:28
choice for to see me. There were two other choices.
13:32
Yeah, one was Jean Marsh imagined.
13:36
Yes, because she said this is basically the same side.
13:45
I've just done, I'm not coming to do this and the second was
13:49
Elizabeth sprigs, who turns up in Paradise Towers?
13:53
He was fired. Wasn't she, she got the part?
13:55
I think. Yeah, she couldn't have made it.
13:58
Yeah, she couldn't make the rehearsals for the filming or
14:01
something, so they fired her, but they'd already designed the
14:05
costume and because she was an older lady.
14:08
The costume is is designed for her rather than Jacqueline
14:11
Pierce, unfortunately. So, - costumes thought God would
14:18
need the mention you, man, the story.
14:23
I read that that is, that is We've gotta start wearing as
14:35
well. Is it the jumpsuit is?
14:42
They put the clothes, which would be extremely uncomfortable
14:45
to wear in the heat of Seville? Well, that's exactly what, why
14:51
are they not in short sleeves? Like toxin positive?
14:57
Well, at least you get to bikini, but 144 If you okay.
15:03
Just one thing that's quite unusual about this story is, it
15:07
has really long extended dialogue scenes and a lot of the
15:11
stuff in the 80s. It's like quick scene after
15:13
quick. Scene, is kind of the earth,
15:14
shock the Warriors of the deep caves of androzani.
15:18
There's something very theatrical about this story.
15:20
Isn't there? That they are.
15:22
I think there's a scene between the doctor and Perry later in
15:24
this episode which is 11 minutes long.
15:29
And that's kind of unheard of at the time.
15:32
Yeah it is 16:22 is an old one because a lot of the time it
15:38
feels like it's a throwback because I've been of the 45
15:43
minute episodes Eric's, a bird hasn't quite worked out, how
15:48
these as your sons will work. So what he does is give us an
15:52
extended episode 1 and then episodes two, three and four in
15:56
the final part. With this one, is slightly
15:58
better paced. I've got this in this music.
16:00
Great. I love this video.
16:02
Music. So I've been all the stories
16:09
this year has really huge pacing problems.
16:13
Yeah, there's a lot of talking scenes and not a lot of action,
16:17
whereas when they success of the year before, when they did the
16:23
original broadcast of resurrection of the Daleks where
16:25
they edited, the two episodes together, and the pacing works
16:28
much better, because it's not designed as to as a two-part. 50
16:32
minute episodes hits. It's a four-part story edited
16:36
together so you get all those natural.
16:38
Wow, the pace is much faster. I mean, the weird thing about
16:43
this story is come episode 3. I think I feel like you have two
16:47
fairly language episodes and then come up.
16:49
So three, it just really accelerates in the last half an
16:53
hour. There's lots of action and it
16:55
kind of power supply, Max. The first episode is got a lot
17:00
harder than it. One things start happening bit
17:03
more but really the come, the third, it redo, the scallops
17:06
towards the still padding in the FIB of n, it just really counts
17:10
towards its end and it's wrapped up in you know in a space of a
17:13
few minutes but it's worth saying is padded but it's Robert
17:18
Holmes padding and this dialogue is gorgeous.
17:20
I mean, I think the dialogue throughout this story it is
17:23
top-notch. What do you think about this?
17:30
It's persuasive supposed to be. Where are they supposed to be
17:33
fishing right now? Just one of some kind of alien
17:35
planet somewhere. That just so happens to look
17:38
like Silk, it looks very large tile, doesn't it?
17:44
I don't know how they managed to go all the way to Spain and make
17:48
it look like the sun's not out. It's like even later on when
17:56
they're in like the Spanish streets.
17:57
He was no laughs actually take it like the grading the like
18:01
grading down because it's the sun looks a bit dull and it's
18:05
very hard and she wants even if you watch it with the comment
18:09
beyond the mention that you notice it and say, look, I can't
18:12
believe how cool this looks when really it was absolutely most
18:16
enough. It's German that complaint about
18:24
complain about how brightly lit the sets were and they used to
18:27
say, well the old Even at home, you know, they would adjust
18:29
their lighting if they it was too dark.
18:34
But that doesn't work in this argument because they've
18:36
actually taken the the light down over Nathan for Miss common
18:40
jungle in this fish, that he did very well with that.
18:43
I was convinced as a kids that point that there are was
18:48
supposed to be completely full and Gary down in terms of the
18:52
special features that it had basically that it was a puddle
18:55
that was left. So they have to shoot it in a
18:57
Particular way to make it look as if he was fishing like, in a
19:00
great River. Sometime.
19:02
They do. Thank goodness.
19:05
I had a great director to make sure those seems really worked.
19:09
Okay. All right, we're gonna have have
19:12
it out now because I think okay, I don't think this is amazingly
19:16
like dynamically, directing it. But I do think piece of off.
19:21
It is a better director than people give him credit for.
19:23
I think he casts really well, I think he can choreograph a seem
19:28
really well, and I think he's a lot better when he's on
19:32
location. Like, your most directors are
19:34
come on, come at me. Okay, I agree.
19:39
He definitely gets a really great cause and I've been, he
19:43
lets them do their work, and you can see that that they they know
19:47
what they're doing. He hosts.
19:50
People that he know what he will get something really brilliant
19:53
out of, and he could, he knows that he did, then he can just
19:57
concentrate on getting it in the can.
19:59
And I think he, we started off really well.
20:03
I think with the State of Decay and the visitation of both
20:08
really good. As is more than Undead.
20:11
The five doctors, I think it's just such a shepherding all
20:15
these actors and keeping them in line jobs.
20:17
That after that, I think it's just Okay, well I'll just do
20:21
what I can get this stuff on this so much joy.
20:24
In the five, doctors, I think you could just point the camera
20:27
and had all those actors come in and you'd still love it.
20:29
You know, it's one of my favorite favorite stories in the
20:33
whole world, but I have a feeling then you're going to
20:36
say, come the twin dilemma. Yeah, I think there's no money.
20:42
It's the end of the season, you're introducing a new doctor,
20:46
there's so much going on that he's not Quite on top of it all.
20:53
So I think I think it was bad idea introducing the doctor at
20:56
the end of the season. Anyway, 285 big.
20:58
They should have waited till the next year, really, and giving
21:01
Peter Davison another story that would have been even that.
21:05
That's why it's like interesting with the end of the season with
21:07
that story in that way and leaving people going.
21:11
Do I like this guy? Yeah, that's That music again.
21:21
Boom, I love it. Wowzers.
21:28
Okay. So what about this console room?
21:33
It's my favorite. Oh God, it's so gorgeous.
21:37
I love that console of all those buttons and yeah, it's
21:40
beautiful. What, including the new series.
21:43
That's how your favorite across the board.
21:44
My favorite of them. All, that's the one.
21:46
If I was traveling, I'd want to be in there.
21:49
See what those buttons do? Fraser, God.
21:53
It's a good. Yeah, and it's a favorite one.
22:07
So Fraser, what is your favorite console?
22:10
Like of all time? I mean I feel like this one.
22:15
I do like the one you know that went for Colin's of Sylvester
22:18
and I think me favorite new one would probably be all these.
22:24
Yeah, I think I agree with you. I think that is just, you know,
22:27
I think obviously have the coal for Chris and David Tennant and
22:32
then, Matt Smith's, first one was just a bit too brassy.
22:37
Am I think the Capaldi was Sleek it was and it was just like
22:43
atmospheric feel. It, wasn't it.
22:45
And yeah, everything is had instant app.
22:47
So what did you think of the Mask myth one?
22:50
Well, what I really disliked about the new series ones is
22:56
their quirky. So it's made of all these bits
23:00
of the doctors got round the Tardis, and although, it
23:03
doesn't, it doesn't it. Look the same e and awful.
23:06
Absolutely awful. I really I like a nice clean
23:10
consult with buttons. It's a spaceship, it has
23:12
complicated things, it should have proper pressed, 10 buttons
23:16
and levers and things. And that's why I like the power
23:19
D, console more than anyone else.
23:21
Because you can see how it works and they say like well you've
23:27
gotta like a biscuit dispensed with The tape right on his it's
23:38
like you're flying the Tardis with the typewriter.
23:44
Oh, I forgot to mention at the start is that will really should
23:48
be clear the shock I drinking game.
23:50
Okay well I've got a drink eh it's only water but I'm willing
23:52
to play. I got some pivotal actually the
23:55
shock I drinking game is every time shot guy says the word
23:58
meat. Okay cool of Flesh you take a
24:01
break you will get more drunk. If are you drunk?
24:05
Every time he went to still be on the floor by the end of
24:12
episode 1. So I was having a conversation
24:15
with someone. Yes, they write and they were
24:17
saying like the ultimate Doctor Who drinking games was drink
24:22
every time, there's a double entendre.
24:24
I bit of dialogue that you can take in every way and with this
24:28
story, you'd be paralytic by the end of episode one with the
24:31
power that they have 25 minutes. The way it started with
24:33
completely talked over that size of that one.
24:44
Into the rehearsals for the story.
24:47
Even just incredibly amused at how Patrick troughton and Fraser
24:51
Hines and Colin Baker, managed to ring every single single
24:55
entendre out of his scrip that he didn't expect.
24:59
I mean there's a line in there about a hairy legs Highlander,
25:03
isn't there? Okay, so okay, one of the
25:09
criticisms of this era as well. Is prolonged Tardis console
25:13
seems and There are a lot in this story, but I will say,
25:16
again, it's all rubber homes dialogue.
25:18
Like there's a bit in a minute where he pulls out this just
25:22
massive like cards holder and it's got instant dust, re
25:30
Christopher Columbus. The story was originally
25:47
supposed to be set in New Orleans.
25:49
That's what we're homes in written a lot of lot of dialogue
25:54
like that. So a lot of stuff about, you
25:56
know, the differences between, you know, UK and America and
26:00
having a bit of sort of a band, a bit of joke about that.
26:02
And obviously all went in the way by the way.
26:04
That even, the couldn't afford to go to New Orleans and a
26:06
rescheduled to go to civil. I mean, any written that script
26:10
heavily that must be bloody annoying to have to like rewrite
26:13
the whole thing for, Deal, yes. Yeah.
26:16
What did you said? The under gums and you create
26:21
the underground's because he knew it was going to be set in
26:22
the morning, he said, well, what's New Orleans famous for
26:26
well Jazz? Okay, it means that like jars.
26:29
I can't get my head round on the arrow and then the other thing
26:33
was the food you thought about, it's a culinary Center of
26:36
America with, you know, soul food and whatnot.
26:38
So that's where that under gums came from and this race that of
26:41
the court that the pleasure and 15 and all the rest, It.
26:45
And then obviously, it changed to Seville and it was kind of
26:48
like, yeah, I mean, I can't be bothered anymore because of the
26:50
other ones, I kind of think of it.
26:52
Knowing Spanish, it will do. It will do, will just write a
26:55
scene where the go to the going up some food.
26:58
I think it does work. I think I think transferring the
27:02
undergrads from New Orleans, sister, feel like it don't work.
27:06
I think the thing I like about landrigans in this story is that
27:09
would don't get any explanation for them really well, your trip.
27:14
Very Three grown up in the small.
27:16
We don't get any real Exposition about who the algorithms are or
27:21
anything. We just sort of, you know, you
27:22
have your initial scene where the second doctor comes in and
27:25
you deals immediately. We shocked are, you know, is
27:27
what shot? There's has undergone.
27:28
She knows how good people know me knows, you know, put him in
27:30
his place. First number, the Cucumber, that
27:32
sort of thing. But don't, you know, get any
27:35
sort of exposition about, you know, or if there's an unbroken
27:40
from this planet and love about that you just get it introduced,
27:43
you have that one. See, you had already where she
27:48
me and shocked. I all your trading.
27:51
The Clans essentially. Are you shocked?
27:55
I have the quantity agree. You've gotten your undergo
27:57
inheritance. Is I know.
27:59
I'm just seeing you at the Francine we and that's how it's
28:02
done. That's all you Exposition is
28:03
done. Yeah, but we, you don't skip
28:05
back to their previous Story. The next story.
28:08
Sorry, time lash. And it's so awkwardly dumb.
28:11
The exposition is dropped in, you know like oh my God, the
28:14
city. He is frightened what?
28:15
All 500 of us. You know, it's just so awkward.
28:18
Yeah. It's so when I watch this on BHS
28:22
in the nineties as a teenager, you know, I just thought, well
28:26
the must be more story but under G because it's not expending,
28:29
you know, it's not, it's not set up, you don't say they Genesis
28:32
of the underground's, anything up.
28:33
It's just so you're kind of laughing in the must be more
28:36
stories where you get more background about them.
28:38
But then obviously there's not and I think that is, that's the
28:41
beauty of the Reagan here is that we are trapped.
28:43
So so Adult and you know not not not be able in as much as
28:50
already. You need to know where these
28:52
these aliens come from. I am the idea of often is a
28:56
brilliant like money-saving idea of having the story set in this
29:01
location before and after an invasion, because I think he
29:07
feels very different, doesn't it to earlier?
29:09
But now they've got all the lights right down.
29:11
They filled it. Full of corpses, it's a cheese.
29:14
Doctor Who and there's dark. Corridors.
29:19
And I quite like the purple that they've got in there.
29:21
That looks real. It's really quite highly SLI
29:24
done. I mean look at that he's just
29:26
stepped into that purple. Like that's really quite a
29:28
spheric and I really like the idea of the computer trying to
29:35
kill them in various ways as well.
29:39
It gives Colin Baker a chance to do something a bit doctor.
29:42
It was just like trying to Outfox it, you know.
29:49
Well, this evening, when I was watching this last weekend, I
29:54
was thinking, what if that's what the doctors go on and it
30:02
was Colin, who had had the early scenes, where he'd been sent by
30:05
the time not because there's a bit of a Fred through Season 22
30:10
of the doctor being maneuvered into situations by the time.
30:13
Not so you get it. In attacking the Seidenberg new
30:16
and so there's obviously and that that could have built up to
30:20
his trial and then him and Perry go off to to the space station.
30:25
Do those first scenes and then Patrick troughton turns up and
30:29
has to investigate the death of his future self for love.
30:39
I love, I love the idea of like these stories featuring the
30:44
time. It's behaving in a bad way.
30:47
Like yeah, that being an arc. That just wasn't like the nature
30:50
of TV at the time, was it? No.
30:53
But they yeah, but it could have all been tied up with the trial
30:57
when they do that and it could have worked.
31:00
Yeah. But no, they do it the other way
31:02
around. And then Colin could have had
31:03
the pleasure of Havoc getting his remote control that he's
31:06
wanted in Mark of the Rani as well.
31:09
And yeah, I'm just saying, maybe, maybe this could this
31:13
could have worked. You basically rewrite in Doctor
31:16
Who. I've got the hubris of you, man.
31:19
Honestly, what do you think about the sixth doctor and Perry
31:27
them? Like, that's, that's a
31:29
contentious pairing. Yeah, it's you can tell that
31:36
there's there's really good chemistry, I think between Colin
31:40
Baker and Nicola Bryant and they really enjoy working with each
31:43
other, but I'm not sure, they get the best material to work
31:48
with. I'm not sure it's a, it's the
31:52
greatest doctor. Companion relationship off the
31:55
time. I'm just there thinking, well,
31:57
why would you keep traveling with this man?
31:59
Wouldn't you just want to go home?
32:01
What Boy, you actually getting out of this, you'll just have to
32:04
be miserable top in the whole time.
32:06
I mean I feel I felt that way with Tegan as well.
32:09
I was like you know, like you're so miserable your so unengaged
32:13
with his adventures like why do you keep getting into this
32:15
August? Well I think the difference
32:18
batygin is is obviously Tegan was kept specially in season
32:21
nine teams like no I don't want to be part of these Adventures
32:24
get this home and you know blessed me tries for the take
32:27
some of our series to get better.
32:30
And I think when I watched this story I thought Thought this was
32:32
a much better story for buried in the doctors relationship and
32:37
there's a lot more scenes of just had one there where you
32:41
know how he's you know, Pop Style feel like I've oxygen
32:44
ended up as you know, corrected ahead in these.
32:47
Are you here? What it's a lot nicer scene
32:51
between them and when look up the end, the end scene between
32:54
the two of them is very caring and very caring towards Perry.
32:59
So I think we ought to sayin Starting to see the softening of
33:03
the relationship between the slapping of the pics Tapas
33:06
character. And books is there is certainly
33:09
points in the will be posting the stories.
33:10
Well, it's one, stop the second episode where he's, he's very
33:17
antagonistic towards other but also I think in this episode she
33:20
does start to get back a little bit as well.
33:22
Yeah, you know, it's the not assume we're just sort of like
33:27
mold asshole behind his back at one point.
33:31
You know, I'm two fingers like there is definitely there was
33:38
definitely a moment where he's really rude to her.
33:40
She just sort of bites him in the background.
33:44
Well, I think as well we've got a baker and Nicola Bryant.
33:47
They do have terrific chemistry. Yep.
33:50
But they're not allowed to kind of show it off the time, it's
33:53
really frustrating. Yeah, absolutely.
33:58
I don't have, I review of listen to their big finish stories, but
34:01
obviously over like three decades, they've cultivated a
34:04
beautiful friendship and in their big finish Stories, the
34:08
writing reflects that and they're allowed to be like this
34:11
is real like workable pair. It's gorgeous.
34:16
Yeah, it's interesting. You say clapping that first
34:19
story Whispers of Terror was written very much in the Season.
34:22
22, lots of lots of banter, but in not particularly Pleasant
34:27
relationship and they both said, no, we're not.
34:30
If you're going to write like this, we're not going to do
34:32
this. We need something better than
34:35
this. And then I think it was Ish, ish
34:41
ish. Yeah.
34:43
Phil pascoe's story, and it just immediately, there's just like a
34:46
softening up of their relationship and they're having
34:48
fun. That's, I think that's the big
34:50
key in every story. This is nice where she walked
34:53
out the titles. Like a mark of the Rani.
34:55
She's like, oh, let me substitute for Kew Gardens in
35:00
Revelation of the Dalek. She's like, I like a that Rose
35:03
roll. Boom.
35:04
Yeah, look cheer up. Here the fuck up woman.
35:07
You know lucky I've always wanted to see London the sewers
35:13
yeah given the opportunity to travel through time and space,
35:18
man, I'd be there for that. You know, regardless of what's
35:21
happening. It's kind of that Dynamic.
35:26
There was no, he's very hard for meal is the sixth doctor is
35:30
very, you know, you can imagine, you know, she can see in the
35:34
Tardis as it were You're going the wrong way.
35:37
It's just pointing that out. It's like, you know, when you're
35:40
driving somewhere, like, I've got them up.
35:43
I know you're calling them on riding the wrong route in the
35:45
man doesn't listen that. No, no, no. - Jack are not know
35:51
which we going sort of thing. And he has to sort of dynamic,
35:54
as well. It's like the doctor keeps it.
35:56
And what I will tell you if you got it, you know, spaces and it
35:58
never happens which of course is going to get my just recently.
36:02
I told you I've told you the thermal regulate I wasn't
36:05
Twisted enough Is that is that a double entendre again
36:11
relationship between where the doctor is really pompous but
36:21
Joe's worked out that the best way to deal with this is just to
36:25
take the piss out of him and say and get the better of him and I
36:29
think there could have been something very easily built up
36:32
between the doctor and Perry like that, but I would have been
36:34
warmer and more fun too. Watch.
36:37
I was thinking it was supposed to be like those like 1940s
36:40
comedies with the man, and the woman always biting each other.
36:44
But like, really witty, really funny.
36:46
A bit like how they played it in The Runaway Bride with a temper
36:49
tantrum. Yes, that sort of Sparky funny
36:54
but unfortunately you've got Eric's towards script are the
36:56
same and so expensive humor. There's a level of horrendous
37:03
sexism. I think when pet where Perry's
37:05
concerns And he doesn't like Colin Baker so he's not
37:09
basically he's not giving him the best material because he
37:12
doesn't like him playing the dock sir.
37:14
I think I think the level of sexism, that's how he though is
37:18
not just through Eric's award and you know gent he's got a bit
37:23
unsafe for for this because he knew exactly what you still when
37:26
I mean he's you stress to them in a bikini interferes in this
37:29
bikini for all with through and, you know, as a teenage boy.
37:33
I love that. That was brilliant.
37:35
Thought You know as an adult, you know, you kind of think what
37:43
is lusted after by it. Because I've been there's the
37:47
case of a our Niche costs such a huge Shadow over this era
37:51
because if it had been such a remarkable story and I think the
37:56
whole time they're just trying to emulate what they did in
37:59
that, but the writers aren't necessarily up to it.
38:02
So you get Perry being lusted after by the villains story.
38:06
The story of the story, do you realize the twin died Lamar even
38:10
met stores like I find her pleasing like really.
38:15
We've gotten to a point where a massive pantomimes slug is
38:19
lusting after Perry. Yeah and it's yeah, it's just so
38:24
productive. It's so it's really denigrates
38:28
her role to the woman in this story and that we can work with
38:32
it is is time lash where she's just tied up and screaming.
38:36
At a loan Moberly make lunch being that's just coming towards
38:40
our and there's so many levels of symbolism in National Dress.
38:46
I think it's a poor reflection on Nikolai brain as well, you
38:50
know, about McNichol a binder, the convention before and she's
38:52
such a lovely person and, you know, and just to have her
38:57
performance calling dr. Hill, which is to basically, you
39:01
know, eye candy is is really digging it Yeah.
39:06
It's really dismissive of her as a performer because she is what
39:10
up, hold your hands apart until I met.
39:12
I didn't, you know, she wasn't murdered really, okay?
39:15
So, I mean, I can hear some accents lip.
39:18
Sometimes there's a couple of waters with me.
39:36
MCS publicity. She's yeah.
39:40
She's all of a sudden this big. Okay, well for that, but I was
39:45
eight or nine so you do and it took a look to when I remember
39:49
hearing her talking with an English accent for the first
39:52
time to start, oh my God. Why is Nicola Bryant putting on
39:56
an English accent? Decade of Classic 60s, 70s, or
40:20
80s. Because I think it's the 80s.
40:23
I think the 80s is where the most overt sexism takes place
40:29
that's a tricky one because, you know, yes in the it is it's it's
40:35
quite clear, you know. Go in the dressing Perry in a
40:37
very get the dance to watch. Doctor Who sort of where I think
40:43
the 70s was very, it was more. You watch love stories and
40:51
you've only got the one female character, you know, you're
40:54
watching through the likes of season 14.
40:58
You know, it's noticeable that you take Sarah out, your next
41:02
story has an all female characters.
41:04
The next one is leader, who's again?
41:06
Just forget the dad's watching, you know School, although
41:09
interestingly in the late 70s when Williams came in, suddenly
41:13
he started populating characters stories with loads of women.
41:16
Absolutely. I 16 and 17.
41:20
Yeah, you look at stones of blood, that's all all women.
41:24
Really preaching all the phrases that you watch the other day.
41:27
That's got several female characters that hasn't it.
41:30
Yeah yeah, yeah. And you did stop at the 60s to
41:33
50s as got more female characters but To the storm, get
41:37
the great deal to do with. It's sort of like the background
41:41
characters. The men do all the Saban of the
41:44
day and the few months of exceptions Space Museum.
41:48
That's okay. The male characters that that
41:52
delivering swords, you know, there's there's ups and downs
41:55
for each each decade. I would say what I will say
41:59
though is that Talk to him is not given us a weak female
42:06
companion and any ain't what you think?
42:09
Never never never, never never given up even though do you know
42:21
what I mean? Don't think gel as well.
42:30
With, but daughter was should never got a proper introduction.
42:33
She just walks into the Tardis. Yeah, walks into the Tardis.
42:36
At the end of that story, she walks out of it in the Ark, full
42:39
of full of herself, essentially. And I think that that Jaws, I
42:44
think that's possibly one of the reasons why that kind of
42:47
difference it. Well, it's the same with Mel.
42:48
Mel never gets an introduction. Yeah, well just gets given voice
42:52
of young to trial. The time lord.
42:54
We don't know. She never ends are Spurs as it
42:57
were. Were every other, you know,
42:59
companion, this is got something about them.
43:01
They're either really clever on be strong characters.
43:05
And without exception, I would say, Obviously with Mal after
43:10
Perry, welcomes about, like people just go on about the
43:13
screaming and she does scream a lot.
43:15
I don't think a lot of those screens were scripted.
43:17
I think that's giant, he's saying, get her to scream, she's
43:19
got a hell of a scream, but I think she's way more proactive
43:23
than Perry. Now, like, she's driving stories
43:27
in. - avoids less. So now but in time of the Ronnie
43:32
Paradise towers and in dragon fire as well, if I don't know,
43:36
there was an attempt to kind of Dial back a bit.
43:40
Yeah there are some things that really irritate me about the
43:43
writing of male. Always remember, there's there
43:47
was an interview somewhere or Andrew cartmel, said always have
43:51
more the problem with male was you had no character and I said
43:53
and I was also for kids. Well, you're the script editor
43:56
Elena character. Yeah, she's really good.
43:59
And what we going for this up for anything, you could give her
44:02
anything and she will will take it and go for it with full custo
44:07
but as a Sort of as a child in the 80s.
44:10
I wasn't a huge fan of now, but I've some subsequently come to
44:16
to enjoy her because she just wants to travel with the doctor
44:19
and she's throwing herself into the adventures in the way that
44:23
most of the other gentie era, characters haven't done.
44:27
Also wants to overcompensate a bit.
44:30
You have that Tegan and Perry for years and years going out
44:33
gasps. Let's go back to the Tardis and
44:34
then males in Paradise casket. We're gonna go to the pool.
44:40
Completely the other direction, that's taking it to the other
44:43
extreme, isn't it? Because that irritated me about
44:45
Paradise towers as they the stuff going on, and you just
44:48
want to go second, read the room.
44:58
Interestingly, again, you skip forward to Big finish and they
45:02
actually write her in as a computer programmer with skills,
45:06
and she's just a really effective.
45:08
Character. Yeah, so the potential was there
45:11
with Perry with male. The potential is definitely
45:14
there. Yeah, but I think you've got a
45:16
very disinterested production team at this point.
45:20
I think I've said this many times before I think Eric's, I
45:25
would maybe should have left over at the end of this year,
45:28
all the previous year and maybe J and C as well and give calling
45:33
a new production. Team of coming in with new ideas
45:36
and bang off we go, we're going to Do something really different
45:40
here. It's a tricky one.
45:42
This point they've been doing this a long time and there's a
45:45
really being of jaded Miss with it all.
45:49
It's a well-oiled machine. They know what they're doing.
45:51
Everything's fine. But nothing is being pushed.
45:55
Yeah, a little bit. You get that push again until
45:57
Andrew cartmel arrives. Yeah and I'll just use up
46:01
storytelling behind the scenes and comes in and does just
46:06
reinvigorate it all with. With a and he liked that.
46:10
A lot of people say that he should have gone around the time
46:12
of the five, doctors like that would have been a good out for
46:14
him. And that's a good celebration
46:16
for in Seattle and then bring someone in with fresh blood.
46:19
We wouldn't have got Colin Baker, we wouldn't have got
46:21
Sylvester McCoy, like I wouldn't lose those doctors.
46:25
So it's a is a difficult one, you know.
46:27
Yeah, it's yeah. It's hard because there's so
46:30
many great decisions that he does make, but I think maybe he
46:33
needed someone other than Eric's a wood behind him as his script
46:37
Editor to reinvigorate. Great the show.
46:40
I think that's the conclusion I've come to one re-watching.
46:43
This particular story as well as I don't have so much of an issue
46:46
with the GNT year as a deal with the Eric's here with you quite
46:51
like the Christopher did meet stuff and The Advocate belstaff
46:55
thing in all its initial. See what a thing for each
46:57
skiers, those stare too long and I think we're going to see in
47:01
this story as well, B, that of Eric's here with a not what
47:04
those homes which Not a fan of what that's going to be a sort
47:11
of free. And I always feel like like in
47:13
season 19, he's kind of news with me.
47:16
So he's doing a shock of his life and he's kind of having
47:19
some fun with the show season 20.
47:22
Something just goes wrong straight away.
47:23
I think they're all big, Concepts stories, all really
47:26
interesting ideas and they're kind of not holding their very
47:30
engaging way. It's really fun and it's a would
47:34
just doesn't like the doctor very much.
47:36
I think this is yeah. Leaving Peter Davison stump to
47:40
being a nice guy in a bad universe and he doesn't believe
47:45
in this sculpture, that he's helped create any way
47:48
whatsoever. And so you have everything we
47:51
can to make their agency away through the stories.
47:55
Do you think that extends to Davison and Colin Baker?
47:59
Yeah, I bet I think it starts with Peter Davison and I've been
48:03
you see through season 20, that the doctor is very much an
48:07
expert. Should machine who is just that
48:09
tell you what's happening and this is this and we're at the
48:12
picture of the universe and this will be the end of me as a time
48:15
lord. And this will be this and this
48:16
will be this and you compare that to when Chris fridge B
48:20
becomes back in front of yours and suddenly the doctors got a
48:24
personality and the character and he's got and you should see
48:28
Peter Davis and seizing it because it's the first time in
48:31
ages. These not written as a generic
48:35
hero, he's got his Her is back, doesn't even say himself if
48:39
sorry. Frasier if he'd had more stories
48:42
by address Army, he would have stayed another year.
48:46
Yeah. Your mother some of this very
48:52
much ahead of me. Yeah, it's me mine mine pores
48:56
completely. So let's just can't okay until
48:58
yours run out because I was just guessing where it was because my
49:02
literally froze completely on top of the pops.
49:11
Well, this is still going out guys.
49:15
Doctor Who and Perry are on the climbing frame having a better
49:19
chance at the moment cleans this as the set on top of the box
49:23
here I can. Well believe, I don't believe
49:26
it's coming back and he has for Cliffhanger and we've got the
49:30
doctor doing very doctorly things.
49:33
We buy even things and it's in. This is the Regal Cliffhanger in
49:37
my opinion, you've got the doctor and it's a, it's a
49:40
classic 6.0 zoom in on his face, you know, knocked unconscious.
49:45
Has fallen do of top of the pops set having by the wires you but
49:49
Perry being assaulted by. Who knows what you ever lost
49:53
anyone that because it's very in chose gets a solitary.
49:55
You are troublingly. He's getting his leg over in a
49:58
very dramatic way and it's very much something Freya honestly.
50:04
So, I mean, I always disagree with people on Cliffhangers for
50:08
some reason or, you know, all the ones I think are good
50:11
Cliffhangers, people think of rubbish and other ones are thick
50:13
aren't as good people. I read about this book for me.
50:16
A cliffhanger is it's what gets you watching next week?
50:21
Yeah. Yeah.
50:23
I love the Cliffhangers like I think they are like one of the
50:27
things that makes Doctor, Who I think the prime example is the
50:31
whole horror of fang Rock. People always, always, we have
50:34
about, I think it's the episode 3 Cliffhanger where it's like,
50:36
Tom Baker gone. I've locked the Enemy Inside
50:39
with us, and it's, I don't get up with.
50:43
I know that already. I know you've done that.