Latest / Skin Anarchy / Interview with Oprah Magazine Beauty Director, Brian Underwood

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Interview with Oprah Magazine Beauty Director, Brian Underwood · Skin Anarchy

• 0:05
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• 0:33
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_05: Hi guys.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_05: This is our third season, and for our first episode, our launch episode, we have a very, very, very special guest.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_05: Um, today we invited on uh Brian Underwood.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_05: He is the beauty director for Oprah magazine.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_05: He has more than 13 years of lifestyle journalism experience and has worked for so many different publications, including Fitness Magazine, Women's Health 17, Cosmopolitan, amongst many, many more.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_05: Um, what's really, really amazing is that he's also been recognized by reputable organizations such as the Skin Cancer Foundation.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_05: And, you know, I can't even do justice to his background.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_05: So welcome, Brian.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, thank you so, so much for having me.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm really happy to be here.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_05: We're so happy to have you.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_05: Can you tell us or tell our listeners about yourself and do justice to your background?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you did a great, great job.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um Yeah, I I um I I've been working in the publishing industry for uh pretty much my entire career.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I started out uh interning at magazines, and I I sort of knew that I wanted to work in magazine publishing.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: This was around the thousands.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so a lot it a lot has changed since then, of course.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you know, back then it was really before uh the internet as we know it uh right now and today, and certainly before our podcast.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: So this was really where people were getting their information, primarily on newspapers, magazine, television.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I've of the three, magazines just appealed to me the most.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: I I loved the creative process.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: It felt like this little sort of monthly compendium of of art and fashion and writing, and it just really appealed to me.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: That that medium really appealed to me.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so I knew I wanted to do that, and and honestly, didn't really start out covering beauty.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: I I sort of you know started out in a more kind of features department role.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I did some health, I did some lifestyle, and then I started seeing like you know, those girls in the style and beauty departments having so much so much fun.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, that seems like something that I could could be interested in, and and something I'd always been interested in, and was able to kind of pivot to you know, style a primarily style coverage, and have sort of you know gone from there.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: I've I've held fashion roles, I've held sort of general lifestyle roles, and I think I I've now had this is you know my second beauty director job, and I think it's what you know kind of what really appeals to me most.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's a nice blend, at least in the publishing world, it's a nice blend of being uh involved in the art side of things, the photo shoot side of things, the art direction side of things, and then also in the words.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's a nice, it's a nice, nice mix that we we get to play around with product all day.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, who doesn't love who wouldn't love to do that?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_05: I was gonna ask you about that when you said you wanted to switch over to the style.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_05: I was like, was it the PR?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: I was well, I was I was seeing that these these these editors were getting these great day, and I thought, I want to be, I want to be a part of that.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh it's a blessing and a curse.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh especially uh now that we've all sort of pivoted to working from home.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: My apartment that was already inundated with products is is further inundated since everything is coming to here.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: But I I'm the last person to complain because it's a really fun gig and I feel very I feel very fortunate to have it.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_05: That's amazing.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_05: That sounds like it's it sounds like a dream come true, honestly.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, that's it.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_05: When I first saw your profile, I was just like, wow, you know, I can't imagine having the job of a beer beauty director for such a reputable magazine, and then having so many people just kind of reach out to you.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, do you do you deal with that on a daily basis?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_05: Like, how do you manage that?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I'm sure you have every brand reaching out to you.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, it I do.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: And with you know, I I've I've become active on social media as as you know, so many people have, as everyone has, and that's really opened up um even more interaction with different people.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: I actually love it, honestly, because in the traditional correspondence, you know, email, PR pitches, that sort of thing, you know, you form relationships with those people, you know those brands, uh, it's it's great.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's great to hear what's new.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: What's so great about social media is that this brand that may not have the budget for PR representation, that may not have the budget for marketing, can just DM me and say, hey, this is what we're doing.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: Are you interested in learning more and trying some of our products?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's so great because you can find these little gems of brands and and sort of share those little with your readers.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think it's great to be the I think it's great to be the, you know, among the first to try new products from very well-established brands.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: But I find it even more thrilling to find this brand that not a lot of people know yet.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: And and and to help and to help them get to a place, you know, where a lot of people know about them.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really fun, honestly.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's a really fun part of the job.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I'm so glad you said that because there's so many indie brands these days popping up, especially in skincare.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_05: And I know just as like influencers, both Farheen and I um originally have been, you know, full influencers, and we you know see them all the time.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_05: So as you know, as a beauty director, that's crazy, and it's wonderful to hear that.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_05: It's great.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's great.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I I really believe that indie beauty is like the future of beauty, and I think yeah, these are the brands that that people feel real connection to and have like a really devoted, devoted following.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's right.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's something to be said for being able to go to any store in the country, any drugstore, and pick out a product and and know what you're getting and know that brand for that.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: But I also think there's just something so great about these little undiscovered gems.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_05: I completely agree with you.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_05: Honestly, I mean that it's it's so many.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_05: So many.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: So many.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_05: There's like a there's a skincare line for everything and anybody, I think, these days.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's really skincare.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you're seeing so much of the market shift from cosmetics uh to skincare, and I love that.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that is so in keeping with our overall wellness and health and self-care.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: So it to me, it makes total sense that skincare is kind of taking center stage right now in beauty.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and look, it's it's so fun to play around with makeup and swatch makeup and look at the pretty colors and the beautiful textures.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: And that that will never not be fun.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: But I do love this idea of people, women and men, you know, experimenting with skincare, taking care of themselves, you know, and and really sort of embracing their sort of their natural kind of their natural look, you know, which I think is is really important.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_05: It's like be comfortable in your own skin kind of thing now.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_05: Totally.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_05: You know, it's like I I I've been noticing that.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah, so I want to ask you actually, because I'm very curious what made you pick Oprah magazine.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, what what made you think Oprah magazine was a good fit for you as a beauty?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, look, I think when I was starting in the industry, it was the early 2000s.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: Oh launched, and Oprah being uh uh a sort of young editor, and this this magazine launched that really changed everything, and it was the place to work at the time, like everyone wanted to work at O.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it was because of Oprah, of course.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, Oprah is a for is a force, but they were she is a force, they were also doing really interesting things.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I I'll give you one example.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: You know, up until that, if you were casting a beauty or a fashion story, the fashion books and the magazines geared toward younger readers were using the girls from the fashion walls.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: They were using the fashion models, that's who they used for to cast their stories.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: The the you know, women's magazines that were geared toward an older audience were using the lifestyle girls, the you know, the girls from at the agencies from the lifestyle roster because they were culture and and you know, not so fashiony.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: So that's where it was.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: It was still a model.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: And what was so revolutionary was they cast fashion and beauty stories with real people, real women, non-models.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: They weren't fashion models, they weren't lifestyle models, they were real women.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: And at the time, that was a huge change.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that must have been a huge change.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was, and I think Oprah, Oprah's point was she was so tired of opening magazines, whether it was Harper's Bazaar or good housekeeping, and not seeing women that looked like her reflected on those pages.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's when it sort of clicked in her head.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: Why are we not photographing our stories on people that look like me?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: Women of all shapes and sizes, women of all racial and ethnic backgrounds.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a real revolutionary revolutionary idea at the time.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: Now we think of representation.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's so funny because representation and diversity are still conversations that we're having today in the fashion and beauty industries.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: And Oprah was breaking down those those walls and those barriers 20 years ago.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: And that to me is is one reason why I wanted to work for O.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's an amazing reason.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's yeah.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: And the way it spoke to the way it spoke to women, it was it was smart, it was not pandering, it had this authoritative tone, but it wasn't con it was there was no condescension.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: It was just, it was so smart.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: And really the smartest people in the industry worked there.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so I knew if I was lucky enough to be a part of something like that, it would be a real blessing.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and it it has been.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_05: Wow, that's amazing.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_05: So do you try to keep that that same theme that drove like drew you in at first with the you know, having real women and real people just, you know, do you try to keep that theme as you edit, you know, anything that you approve for the beauty calls?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, so I I've been at O for about just over three years.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um when I started at O, as much as as much admiration as I had for the content in the beauty pages at that time, I still thought that there were to make the section a bit dynamic.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I saw visual representations of of all women, but I didn't necessarily see that represented in the tip that we were covering.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: So it's one thing to put a black woman, uh use a black woman as a model in a beauty story.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's one thing, but to do a story on different art styles, or to do a that celebrates the afro, or to do a story that celebrate that to do an anti-aging story, let's say, uh that focuses instead of on wrinkles and lines and wrinkles on pigment problems, which we know is the number one skincare issue that melanin-rich complexions deal with as they age.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: You need to you need to visually represent different women on your pages, but you also need to cover the topics that are important to them.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that was one, yeah, that was one area where I really thought we could be better and and and and and and do better.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: And those three stories that I mentioned to you are done since I've been at O.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: We did a big story uh the first um summer I was there.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: We did a big story on black women and skin cancer, um, just really discussing how certainly it's less prevalent in dark, uh dark, darker women, but it's it's also more deadly uh because it's detected later.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: And there's really there's really a lot of outreach and education that needs to happen because you are, you know, the the women that we spoke to for this story told us over and over again that culturally sun protection is not something that was culturally ingrained in their beauty routines.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and certainly that's you know, certainly that's changing now.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: When you have Rihanna you a three-piece skincare collection, and one of those three pieces is a sunscreen, you know that you know that that's changing.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm so happy to see because the other thing that we talked about in that story was just this idea that there were no sunscreens being created that black women wanted to even use.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: They weren't pro Yeah, or any women of color, right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, as for him and I are two women of color, and we can't, I mean, even today it's hard to find like you said, any melanin-rich complexion, it's very, very hard to find a sunscreen that that is that looks nice.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: And and at the end of the day, the only sunscreen that's gonna be effective is the one that you're gonna use, and you're only gonna use one that you want to use.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I'm so glad that that's changing.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: But talking about those topics, doing stories on those topics was really something that was very important to me.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then the other thing was Oprah is known for having really doing really thoughtful interviews with celebrities.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought that there was a way that we could incorporate that into the beauty section, which had no celebrity coverage you know, when I started, yeah, and make it feel different than what you would get from an interview, say, in InStyle, you know, which is totally focused on.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: But what could we do at O to make it different?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: And it was really talking about products and favorite products and what they use, but like what are these bigger conversations around beauty?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: These conversations about inclusion, having a seat at the table, uh, you know, these, you know, sexism, feminism.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, we did this column, we debuted this column cut called Beauty Talk, and we really saw it, we wanted it to be a mix of A-listers and notable people that had just something really interesting to say.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it was really inspired by, you know, Nicole Bayer, um, fabulous comedian.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: If if people aren't familiar with Nicole, she wrote an essay uh for Lenny Letter called, you know, Dear Makeup Artists.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm paraphrasing me to this, but it's it was something like, Dear makeup artists, stop fucking up my black face.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: And it was it was just about how she's been sitting in makeup chairs for years and has never come across a makeup artist who knows how to do black skin.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: And like, why are we still having that conversation in 2018, which is when we ran her column?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: So we started to do that.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we talked about, we talked to um Sarah Sophie Flicker about um, you know, who's one of the founders of the Women's March, about she she's also she has this very striking look.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: She has very dark hair and she wears a very red lip.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, you know, we talked to her about this juxtaposition of a woman feeling comfortable to experiment with cosmetics, but also, you know, how beauty had this nasty history of objectifying women and has that changed?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: And can you be a woman?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: Can you be a serious person and still care about lipstick?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: And of course you can be.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, having those conversations, we talked to Chrissy Metz about, you know, sizism and what needs to be, you know, happen there.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: And those conversations I think were really important to have.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we at O were very uniquely positioned to have them.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um and yeah, it sounds like so.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Those were two things that I really really wanted to bring to the to the magazine that I think we could.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_05: So let me let me ask you as just like a follow-up question to that.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_05: Um, now that we're seeing this more and more, because it sounds like you are really in that position of becoming, you know, um, Oprah magazine really became a trendsetter in this way, because now everybody's talking about real women and real models and real skin concerns, you know.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_05: So now when you look at the same column, right?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_05: And how do you how do you avoid redundancies?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_05: How do you avoid talking about because I feel like oftentimes as just a consumer, I see, you know, somebody's talking about, well, be proud of you know your weight or be proud of whatever aspect it is that they're trying to highlight, but then you keep seeing that same thing in every publication, you know what I mean?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_05: So, like to avoid that redundancy, what did like from your perspective, what do you think?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: In that particular one, I think it was really about finding people that have something interesting to say.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I think, yeah, you know, a lot you a lot of brands, a lot of media brands get very enticed and very hypnotized by access to a very A-list celebrity.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I am very honest when I'm pitched these celebrities, whether it's through their personal publicist or through a brand publicist, to say, we'll talk about the fun stuff, but I can't, I'm not gonna do this, we're not gonna do this interview if such and such a celebrity will not answer these questions.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we send them, you know, you know, very specific, very kind of hard-hitting questions, um, you know, related to uh their work and what they do and and what they've spoken out against.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I find that if they're willing, it's usually a good interview.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: And if they're not, it usually won't be.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: And we just we just won't waste anyone's time because we're we're not looking to, like you said, we're not looking to have someone parrot back something that's already been said.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: We want, you know, new insights.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's also about finding people, regardless of how famous they are, finding people, like I said, with something interesting to say.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: There's a novelist, um, her name's Aro Kwan.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: She's Korean American.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: She wrote this fabulous debut novel.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, our books department, which is obviously a huge part of O, they couldn't, they couldn't cover the novel in the particular issue that they were working on.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I, you know, googled her, and she had this really striking makeup look.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: She's this very serious, accomplished novelist, but she has this amazing sort of cat eye makeup that she does, and she's a total skincare nerd.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: And we ended up having this fabulous conversation about Korean beauty.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: And does Korean beauty have a race problem?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, because we know so many of those products are skin lightning products, or they tote skin lightning.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: And then we had a conversation about the fetishization of Asian women.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, one of the reasons why she does this really cool makeup look is to sort of, you know, through turn that on its head.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think it's it's really mostly the job of an editor to find those people who you can have conversations with that you're not gonna have anywhere else.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_05: That's so cool.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_05: Wow, I love that.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_05: I love that you actually asked her that bold of a question to like to address that, you know, but she was so excited to answer it and so wanting to answer.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think people want to have these conversations.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, if you know, if I you know get an interview request and it's like 15 minutes over email, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not gonna do it.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I it's just you can't really do a great interview over email.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: You need to get on the phone with someone and talk with someone.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, I I just talked to Helen Miren for uh an upcoming uh story that we're gonna run on Obermag.com about sort of you know ageism, and she just had some really amazing things, funny, insightful things to say.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: Certainly the same old stuff that you hear, which you know, growing older is great, blah, blah, blah, which it is, of course.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but she also said, you know, you have two options in life.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: You can either die or get older.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: And she said, and I don't want to die.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: She said, I feel I'm fine with getting older.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: She said, in fact, I feel really bad for Kurt Cobain because think about it, he he died and he didn't get to see all of these amazing things that have happened since 1994 to now.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: And she said, think about getting older is just experiencing more of all of this interesting and innovative stuff, and certainly along the way comes challenges, but you get to see so much.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought that was so cool of her to say, and I I never thought of it that way before.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's what you want.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: You want people to talk about say things to you that inspire you to think about things in a way that you've never thought of them before, right?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, of course, of course, yeah, especially from a journalist standpoint, right?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, if like just you want to get the truth out of people, and I can't, you know, and I and to like going back to your 15 minutes over an email, how am I supposed to get absolutely and I I always find those answers to be highly edited by publicists and just not a grain of of anything interesting in there.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um you know, and and that's not you know what my job is.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's so interesting, Brian, because I didn't even know you could do an interview uh over email.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's completely different.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: I am so tell you, I'm so shocked that you know that that is the request that I will send questions and and have them respond via email.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's just to me, like you said, sort of, is that an interview?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what is that?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it is just like I said, and and you know what, it's it's more and more of that, to be honest, which is sad.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think that um there's a lot of content out there, there's a lot of media outlets out there.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: Perhaps for some of them that would be sufficient.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I I I I want to create content that is is not just okay.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think that's yeah, I think that's well.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think people now more than ever want to have deeper conversations.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And want to consume content that's more meaningful and that's more insightful.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a kind of a product of, you know, more surface level stuff that's been out on social media and in the mainstream.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm glad that now we're having deeper conversations because it just gives us so much more insight into that person, into that um issue.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the reasons why Ekta and I even started this podcast because an Instagram uh caption wasn't enough to talk about the deep issues that were having skincare and beauty and everything surrounding that.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: For sure, for sure.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: And um, there's so many people doing so many interesting things in beauty that it really is hard to do it justice in some formats.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so why try?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: Just leave that stuff for the formats that can really give it its due.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to ask you, kind of stemming from that, what are maybe the top three most surprising things that you have done as a beauty editor that you didn't imagine that you would have to do that.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so um, first, number one, I was basically um a sort of cruise entertainment director for about two years.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um I yeah, so we had a partnership.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh wow, uh O magazine had a partnership for three years with Holland America Cruise Line.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: This was, of course, um pre-COVID, um, whereby we uh produced, I think it was like six O magazine themed cruises a year, and they brought editors on board to lead various sessions.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: So we had our books editor lead uh book clubs on board, we had our creative director do like style uh style sessions, and then I did uh a couple beauty sessions uh on board.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think I sailed four times total.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it was so fun.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not it's not anything you'd ever think well, a part of an editor's job is to sort of go on a cruise for a week.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but it was Brian.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_05: You're making me want to quit my my day job in medicine.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it was and it was that's you know, that's what media is today.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: Media is not media is not a printed magazine, it's not a website, it is a real brand, it's a brand experience, and I thought that was so smart of a publisher to bring this to life in that way, and the response that we got was amazing, and it was so fun.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: And for us, you know, it's sort of like you sometimes feel that you as an editor are sort of in your own little world, doing your own little thing, and and you're maybe not as in touch with the audience that you're really editing for as you'd like.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so this was a way that I yeah, you know, I really got so close to these women and and heard from them directly about what they what their questions were about and what they wanted to know more about and what they wanted to see in the magazine more, and that is just like invaluable feedback to get.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I'd say that definitely uh one of my uh one of my things I didn't think I would be doing would was being a cruise director.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um the other thing, you know, I didn't think I'd be doing as much of um is is is working with advertising brands.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, that has really changed quite a bit.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, when when I started in this industry, there was a real separation of what's what we called church and state.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: And church was editorial and state was advertising and marketing.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: Separation, and you did not tow that line.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: Now it's quite different.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and really the speed at which internet content evolved and developed, I think is really a part of this.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so now you know you're working with brands on sponsored content, you're working with brands on uh native content.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, I don't have a problem collaborating with brands who are paying for content, as long as it's content that I believe that our reader would want anyway.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what I try to do when I'm given a brief for some sort of native or sponsored editorial.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: I really, really tried my hardest to sort of spin that brief into content that that serves everyone's purposes.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: So it serves the brand's purposes, it gets their message out there, provided it's a message we want to amplify.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: And it also is is just good content for our readers.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that's been an interesting sort of puzzle, not one that I, you know, having grown up in this industry at a different time, not one that I expected, um, but certainly one that became a big part of my job um at O and elsewhere in recent years, and and one that was you know surprising.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then I think you know, I just I if you would if you had you know told me, you know, 10 years ago that I'd get to meet Oprah and I'd get to introduce her to my parents and I'd get to go on a on a cruise with her, I never would have believed you.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um but that was obviously a huge, a huge, huge thrill as well.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_05: By the way, can we ask?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_05: Of course, of course.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we'll ask that.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: She's I want to know.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: I really want to know what you'd expect her to be.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, she's very well, here's what you would expect her to be.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: You'd expect her to be very sort of a little bit down to business, um, which she is.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh, you know, friendly, which she is.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: I think what a lot of people don't expect is how funny she is.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, she is so funny, it's like hilarious.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_03: And she's just at this stage in her life where she's so successful and she's built that success from nothing except hard work and determination.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: And she just is so funny.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: She she gets up on stage and she'll do a talk and she'll say things like, you know, I know you all are out there thinking like my life must be so great.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: And she's like, and I'm here to tell you it's even better than you could imagine.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: And she's just she's so funny, and and that's what I love about her.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, Gail is the real kind of like heart and soul of our brand.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: She's been the editor at large at O since the beginning, since the year 2000.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and she really is the eyes and ears of Oprah, um, but also the kind of heart and soul of what we do, and and she's so involved.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: This is a woman who has a major daily morning news broadcast that she does every day, and who also shows up to our office by like, well, you know, again, before COVID, um, showed up to our office by 10:30 and stayed until six at night.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, this is not someone who has her name on the masthead and that's it.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: She is in pitch meeting, she sits there, she has a piece of pizza with us, she talks about ideas with us, she's involved.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's that's been amazing too.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, when I interviewed at O, she interviewed me.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, she's the one who did my job interview.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, that I think a lot of people are surprised by that this you know incredibly successful, incredibly busy woman can be so invested, and she is.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: She's she's invested.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's the the only way to say it.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_05: I love that there's I love that you guys preservation of professionalism, you know, because I've you know, it's it's just so refreshing to hear that because I think that oftentimes when the higher up you get, you know, people kind of get loose a little bit.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_05: There's really you don't really have contact with the higher ups anymore.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so I've heard, you know.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_05: So if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_05: But you know, that's what I've heard.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_05: So I love that you're saying all this because you know, you wouldn't, we wouldn't think that.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_05: On our, you know, as just a consumer, I wouldn't think that there's so much direct involvement, you know, and so much hands-on in everything that you're doing.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure it's it's there with every brand, but certainly with ours, there's a real and it's scale.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: There's just a real uh preservation, you put it perfectly, this real preservation of professionalism and thoughtfulness about the product that we produce.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_05: So I want to ask you, Brian, about because both Raheem and I come from this influencer background, right?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_05: From from the Instagram perspective.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_05: So do you ever look towards influencers for any kind of inspiration, any kind of, you know, just something to like, I don't know, maybe give you an idea for your next piece or you know, anything like that.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um I mean, absolutely.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_05: Has there ever been a link like that for you?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: What the what influencers do is different from what we do as editors, but but it's it's still creative content, it's still art direction, it's still uh editorial, it's it's so it's different, but it's not really that different.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a different platform.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so certainly, I mean, I'm a magazine editor, but I live in a world where social media has become where so many people get their information.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: The majority of people get their information on social media, and so for me to ignore those content creators would would be a huge disservice to my myself mainly.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so absolutely, I have my infrastructure that I follow.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and look, you know, we as editors now are also encouraged to be active on social media, and you have some editors that have huge social media presences and and have even transitioned from being editors to now being, you know, really professional influencers, brand people.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I'm certainly looking to them to you know, how can I art direct a post?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: How can I um you know, how can I convey my content in a caption better?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: So absolutely, and I think that I think that it's the relationship between an editor and an influencer seems like naturally antagonistic because it's almost like editors were the original influencers and now influencers are sort of so influential.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um totally it's like micro editors almost everywhere, you know, as something that we can sort of learn from one another and and and in a spirit of collaboration, and and I've certainly learned a lot from from the people that I follow and have become friendly with some of them.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think absolutely absolutely to answer your question, I absolutely look to influencers to inspire me.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_05: I love that.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: What do you feel like um Oh has done in the last, I would say, like five years that uh that you've done to adapt to the you know the taking off of Instagram and TikTok and all these other um places where people are getting their own.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so it's a great question and a timely one for O.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so we're adapting and evolving, and so we want our content to be everywhere where people consume content.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: So of the print publication, we have our website, which is the fastest growing website in the Hearst portfolio.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then we have our social media presence.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: So our Instagram presence as of last time I checked was 1.4 million.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we have we have one of the most one of the largest and most engaged audiences on Instagram in all of Hearst's media empire.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's that, but you know, sure if you or your listeners have have read this, but the O brand beginning next year is evolving, and um we're not gonna be publishing a magazine every month anymore.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we're gonna be publishing, yeah, we're gonna be publishing four times a year, and the rest of our content will be digital first.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I can't share too many details right now, um, but it's going to be very different uh and very exciting, and I think will be a really modern and something that's gonna be very different from the the rest of the Hearst titles currently.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's really exciting.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we're gonna be adapting uh to exactly your question to really make sure that we're delivering our content everywhere that people are consuming content.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: So it's certainly after 20 years of of doing things the way we're doing things, it's gonna be a whole new world starting in 2021.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's very exciting, and I'm very excited you know to be part of that and to see uh to see where we go from here.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I yeah, you know, I'm excited to see what you guys come out with in the digital reality.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think it is a natural progression for the brand, one that Oprah is 100% behind and in favor of, and one that I think will be very, very exciting.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we're excited, guys.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's I wish I wish I could I wish I could share more.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_05: Well, yeah, no, we wish you could too, but you know, we understand gotta keep things hush hush for a while.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_05: But honestly, yes.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um but so okay, so now that now that um we know that you have been you know so involved with beauty and it's oh my god, I'm still so shocked, by the way.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_05: I just want to say that.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, and um honestly, but like going forward, what do you see as the future for the beauty industry?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you know, yeah, I know it's a very big umbrella question, but I mean, what do you think is coming up, you know, in terms of I don't know, I guess brands like you know, more so I want to focus on brands.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_05: Because I want to go back to that indie brand conversation we were having about how all of these brands are popping up.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_05: And now I'm guessing a lot of them are going to be reaching out to publications.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_05: You know, they want to be featured in like, you know, obviously Opra Magazine, Allure, all these big publications.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_05: What do you what do you look for and what do you see coming with this?
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: I really do believe that indie beauty brands are are really the feature of beauty.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think what I really find so interesting is this idea of true like entrepreneurship in beauty.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm thinking of you know it's really it's really like the best entrepreneurs just in general.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: What do they do?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: They find a problem and they solve it.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: They find they find something that was lacking in their life, their lives, and they create it.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm specifically thinking, are you guys familiar with this brand called Guide Beauty?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I like how incredible is that this makeup artist who gets Parkinson's can no longer do makeup the way she was able to because of her illness.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: So what does she do?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: She creates this whole brand based on that.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's so mind-boggling to me how incredible that is and how how how innovative it is.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, it's so innovative.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_05: It's so innovative.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's a very cool example.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: But then you even think of a brand like you know, pause while aging, which is was created by, you know, this, this, this, this beauty, long time beauty executive who just got to menopause and just felt like, why is no one talking about this?
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: Why do I have to, you know, why do I why do I, as a woman going through this, still not really understand what it is?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: Why can my doctor not tell me about this?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_03: And why are there no skincare brands out there that address like the very unique issues that I'm facing?
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: So she created this brand, and that's what her brand is all about.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I really do feel like that is the future of beauty to me, is women and men coming up with solutions to problems.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's just, I guess, the hallmark of just good entrepreneurship in any industry, but the beauty industry in particular has so many examples of that.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: And it's changing the conversation around what is beautiful and and what do we need out of our products and what should we expect out of our products?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's so important, and I think that that's that that's what we need more of, and what I think we'll get more of.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_05: I love that.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I love that you I love that you brought that um the brand up, the guide, the guide beauty example, because I remember when I first saw that, I was so I was a little confused.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I have a medical background, so I was a little confused at first, but then I was like, oh my goodness, this is amazing.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_05: Like, you know, the this is nuts, yeah, so cool and so innovative.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_05: And I mean, right from an even from an engineering standpoint, right?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_05: It just looks like so much work went into that.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_05: So that's so cool.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_05: So, I mean, I guess then, yeah, you know, the innovation part, because I I wonder oftentimes, because with skincare, I feel like I'm seeing the same stuff over and over again where I see a lot of you know, um, like the actives, lots of lots of hyaluronic antioxidants and all that stuff.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: So lots of retinol.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think we got to this place.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think we got like I feel like 10 years ago.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: All about the like plant that grew on the side of a mountain in the Himalayas and and blood even in the winter, and we extracted the essence and put it into our formula, and now you know there's been this huge rebound to like these very tried and true ingredients.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_03: And to me, the like epitome of making that cool is Drunk Elephant, is the Inky List, um, those brands that have really capitalized on that.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_03: But now, of course, you're seeing every brand has vitamin C, every brand has, you know, when you see Olay launching a retinol, everybody does, yeah, you know that we're at like peak retinol penetration.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I I I happen, I happen to think it's a very good retinol line.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you know, it I just think that like, yes, we we've hit ingredient saturation.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_03: How much retinol can we have?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, how much retinol can we have?
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_03: How much retinol can we have?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think that we've we've hit the ingredient saturation point, and I do think ingredients are great, and I do think you look for certain ingredients, but ultimately at the end of the day, I'm not a chemist, and there are challenges to everything that we as consumers, even as you know, myself as a quote-unquote expert, even though I don't really think of myself as a beauty expert, even even people who are educated on the topic, there's still things that we just don't know, the inner workings of this and how things certainly work, and and the balance in a formula.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I think um I think it'll be interesting to see where this sort of ingredient focus you know pivots from here.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I really, really hope we take off with the ingredients.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_05: I'm sorry, when I hear something like the white lily extract from, you know, like the shores of the Ganges or something, you know, I don't listen, listen, I'm not interested.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_05: And maybe it's because my medical background or my science background, but I want to see more of like, for example, Neode.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_05: Like I love, I bring I feel like I bring up Neo every single episode we have because I'm just love, I love the chemistry perspective of a skincare line.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_05: So it's like I want to know that what you're doing makes sense scientifically.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_05: And I that you know, that's why I ask you this question because I see so many lines that are so focused on this aesthetic appeal to, you know, you should you know buy it because, like you said, you know, it's that one thing that nobody knew about that grows in the Himalayas, you know.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_05: But at the same time, when it comes to actually being effective, um, a lot of these chemistry brands.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, look so much getting so much of that I use, you know what I mean?
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's like very no-frills, like very sort of clinical brands.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, but you know, and look, there is certainly something to be said for buying something because it's pretty and it's beautiful and it's a luxurious experience to use, and you know, that's great.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: And if that's what you want to do, that's that's fine.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: Do it.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we're only on this earth for a certain number of years, and enjoy yourself and do what makes you happy.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, I do think I want my skin, I want to know, you know, that my skincare, you know, is gonna net net me some results.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's working.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_05: Right, right.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_05: So, okay, I am going to ask you one last question from my end.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_05: Um because I feel like I've been just this interview.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_05: I'm so sorry for it.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_05: Um but I want I want to know, Brian, from your perspective.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_05: Get give us some tips that every an influencer or a new um, you know, someone who's thinking of starting a skincare line or a beauty line, something to keep in mind um as they go forward with that.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_05: And what you look for as a beauty director when you're about to feature a brand in your magazine.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think it's what sort of circles back to what we were talking about before, which is to sort of identify the white space.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, identify, look, I don't think that the white space always needs to be revolutionary in concept.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think sometimes it can just be revolutionary in how something is marketed, in how something speaks to people.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think that there is, you know, I've had this conversation with so many people, and this, you know, Fenty really came on the block and said at the get-go, we're gonna launch 40 shades of foundation, and we're gonna make sure that everyone knows that no matter what their skin tone, they can come to us and they can find a foundation for them, and it really revolutionized everything.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then behind the scenes, you talk to brands that are at mass mass retailers, and they say, Well, we could make 40 foundations too, but you don't need 40 foundations to get the proper foundation match.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: And there's we're limited by shelf space, and so what a retailer tells us is these are your shades that sell, so these are so there's that that that sort of difference between how someone's a brand is speaking to people, and then sometimes honestly, the reality of doing the business and the realities of products.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: But here's the thing the message is similar, and so do you need 60 shades of foundation to find the the right foundation match for you?
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you don't, maybe you don't need that.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_03: How talking to people and saying you're represented here, you matter, you can find yourself here, that's more important.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_03: The message in the heritage is more important, and so that's what I'll say is you know, even if it's about changing the way things, I think that's very important.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_03: That brand pause is another example.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_03: They have some products in their line that are lovely products.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: Are they products that you could probably find similar in in other lines?
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, but they're talking about menopause in a way that other brands aren't, in a way that that women want to talk about this this life stage because it's been so hush-hush, and so something that no one talks about, and something that's been caught up in a loss of femininity and embarrassment.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so, in this, in this, the the message is almost more important.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think that you can never understate how important it is to make people feel like they're being heard, like they're being seen, like they're being represented.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: I I can't say enough how important I think that is.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: And and so I that you know, identifying that white space, whether it's in a very novel product or just in a novel way of talking about something, that's what I would encourage.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, and that I think applies to whether you're a brand or whether you're an influencer.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: If you're an influencer, we know that there are so many people out there on social media doing so many different things.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: Try to just do you, try to find the white space, find do something that that other people aren't doing.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe it won't be completely unique, but it'll be your little twist on it, and that's probably unique enough.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that's the most, I think that's the most important thing, to me at least.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_05: I love that.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_05: I love that advice.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_05: I I completely agree with you too, because for my account, when I switched it over to something, I I mean I was reviewing products and then I started doing like reviews of the science behind it.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_03: It for me it was more satisfying, and then and then and then you want to do it more because you're excited about doing it, and I think everyone can tell when someone's kind of phoning something in.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think that's really important.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm so glad that like we're having all these conversations.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so glad that now when I meet with a brand and it's it's never we just have 20 shades anymore, it's we have this many shades because we want people to feel like they can come to us and that we're a place for them.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think that's so important, and and I'm so glad that we're finally having those conversations.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_05: For Heen and I want to thank Brian Underwood so much for coming onto our show.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_05: You guys can find him on Instagram at the Brian Underwood.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_05: So definitely check out his personal page and obviously follow Oprah magazine for amazing beauty advice that's probably coming straight from Brian.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_05: So thank you guys so much for tuning in to this amazing episode and the launch of our first or our third season.
• 58:00
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• 58:24
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• 58:34
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