Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1079 - Age-Based Social Media Bans Gathering Momentum

Transcript

#1079 - Age-Based Social Media Bans Gathering Momentum · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:04
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
0:07
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
0:10
Speaker 2: wants answers.
0:11
Speaker 1: Now, Australian kids are going to be blocked from social
0:16
Speaker 1: media until they reach a certain age under a national
0:20
Speaker 1: Plants target, growing concerns around its impacts on young minds. Today,
0:24
Speaker 1: our conversation on the Happy Families podcast is about what
0:27
Speaker 1: the olben Ezy government is committing to in terms of
0:30
Speaker 1: legislation on social media age limits. This stems from South
0:35
Speaker 1: Australia's Peter Malnascus, I hope he said his name correctly,
0:39
Speaker 1: making a lot of noise about this. Recently, there's been
0:41
Speaker 1: a lot of campaigns. I've been pushing it pretty hard
0:43
Speaker 1: myself and today on the podcast a conversation about this.
0:48
Speaker 1: There are some people who have compared potential restrictions on
0:50
Speaker 1: the technology to cigarettes and alcohol, because we're seeing more
0:54
Speaker 1: and more evidence that as social media is harmful to children.
0:57
Speaker 1: I was on a current Affair with Ali Lang and
1:00
Speaker 1: a bunch of other people last Tuesday night and I
1:04
Speaker 1: want to share with you some clips from that as
1:06
Speaker 1: we go through this. But first off, a couple of
1:08
Speaker 1: things around this. We already do have social media age
1:11
Speaker 1: limits it's supposed to be thirteen and up. The thing
1:16
Speaker 1: is nobody's keeping it. Nobody's well, I shouldn't say nobody.
1:18
Speaker 1: The overwhelming majority of people are not sticking with those
1:21
Speaker 1: age limits. I had a dad recently who had a
1:23
Speaker 1: seven year old on TikTok, and dad said, is that okay?
1:26
Speaker 1: Or should I get them off? I was like, no, no, no,
1:28
Speaker 1: they need to be off. There is a reason that
1:30
Speaker 1: thirteen is the minimum age for access to these social platforms,
1:35
Speaker 1: and unfortunately that reason, while it's thirteen is better than seven,
1:40
Speaker 1: it's got nothing to do with your children's well being.
1:42
Speaker 1: It's got nothing to do with your children's cognitive or
1:44
Speaker 1: psychological or emotional capacity to deal with what's happening on
1:48
Speaker 1: social media. If we were taking those things into consideration,
1:51
Speaker 1: a lot of adults would not be allowed on social media.
1:54
Speaker 1: So why the age of thirteen as it now exists.
1:57
Speaker 1: Let's start there. Back in the late nineteen nine is
2:00
Speaker 1: before social media was a thing. The tech companies were
2:03
Speaker 1: lobbying the United States Congress. Most of the tech companies,
2:06
Speaker 1: of course, are based in the United States. They were
2:09
Speaker 1: lobbying Congress because the US Congress is where the legislative
2:12
Speaker 1: requirements for what they do are centered around what the
2:16
Speaker 1: age of Internet maturity should be. And Congress basically said, well,
2:20
Speaker 1: what are you asking for and they said, well, we're
2:21
Speaker 1: going to be collecting personal data about the people who
2:23
Speaker 1: are using our products when they're using them on the internet,
2:26
Speaker 1: on this new world wide web thing that's been developed.
2:29
Speaker 1: Congress said, well, age of a data collection for personal
2:32
Speaker 1: private details should probably be somewhere between sixteen and eighteen.
2:35
Speaker 1: And the lobbyists, because they have deep pockets and because
2:38
Speaker 1: not all politicians are focused primarily on what is the
2:42
Speaker 1: common good, Well, the lobbyists one, and the age of
2:45
Speaker 1: twelve was decided, so twelve and under not allowed to
2:48
Speaker 1: collect data. Thirteen and up tech companies collect data. That's
2:51
Speaker 1: the only reason that thirteen is the number that's been selected.
2:54
Speaker 1: Of course, over time we've seen massive changes in technology,
2:59
Speaker 1: and social media is at the very core of this conversation.
3:03
Speaker 1: What's cures to me around this is that we've decided,
3:08
Speaker 1: thanks to people like Jonathan Hate who wrote The Anxious Generation,
3:10
Speaker 1: and many other people who have been waving the flag
3:13
Speaker 1: and saying this is bad for our kids, we've decided
3:15
Speaker 1: that that age needs to be lifted but we don't
3:18
Speaker 1: really have great information, We don't have great evidence for
3:20
Speaker 1: what it should be. The federal government has bipartisan support
3:24
Speaker 1: on raising the age. That is Anthony Oberenezi and the
3:26
Speaker 1: Labor Party have Peter Dutton and the Liberal Party on board.
3:30
Speaker 1: That's fantastic, right. It means that whoever gets voted in
3:33
Speaker 1: next year, we're going to start to see some changes
3:35
Speaker 1: around this regardless, and on an issue like this, this
3:39
Speaker 1: shouldn't come down to politics. This should come down to
3:41
Speaker 1: the safety of our children. So well done to both
3:44
Speaker 1: the major parties on this particular issue. The issue though,
3:48
Speaker 1: becomes what age is going to be the legal requirement,
3:51
Speaker 1: and that has not been identified. Neither the opposition nor
3:55
Speaker 1: the government have told us that, but the whispers are
3:57
Speaker 1: that it's going to be somewhere around about sixteen. Now.
4:01
Speaker 1: Our experience in our happy families family with me and
4:04
Speaker 1: Kylie and our six daughters has told us that this
4:08
Speaker 1: is a thing. We can look at data all day long,
4:10
Speaker 1: and Darted certainly points in the direction that some children
4:14
Speaker 1: really do struggle and suffer as a result of social media.
4:18
Speaker 1: But when we've watched what happens with our children, I
4:21
Speaker 1: think that's been the big thing. I said this on
4:24
Speaker 1: a current affair. The American thinker and writer and academic
4:29
Speaker 1: Jonathan Hayite wrote a book called The Anxious Generation, and
4:32
Speaker 1: in that book he talks about how, over the last
4:33
Speaker 1: couple of decades, we've moved from what you would call
4:36
Speaker 1: a play based childhood to a screen based childhood, and what,
4:41
Speaker 1: unfortunately we see across our young people is a decline
4:46
Speaker 1: in well being because they really truly believe that they're
4:50
Speaker 1: getting their needs met by being on that screen. It's
4:54
Speaker 1: a hollow imitation, but it makes them feel so good
4:57
Speaker 1: in the moment, and so any parent who's trying to
5:01
Speaker 1: have some sort of boundaries and limits around this will
5:03
Speaker 1: come up against tremendous opposition because to the kids it
5:07
Speaker 1: just feels so so good. What we've seen in our
5:12
Speaker 1: family and in the families of those that we're close to,
5:14
Speaker 1: is that kids get less sleep. They're sleep deprived, so
5:16
Speaker 1: they're more moody and irritable. They're more likely to be withdrawn,
5:19
Speaker 1: they're less likely to be social and engaged with the
5:21
Speaker 1: family or even with their friends. The connections that they
5:23
Speaker 1: have online are shallow and hollow relative to the connections
5:27
Speaker 1: that we have face to face and in real life
5:30
Speaker 1: rather than in the virtual world. There's academic outcomes. There's
5:34
Speaker 1: an academic slide when kids are focused on their screen.
5:36
Speaker 1: And every parent that I talk to, literally every parent says, yeah,
5:40
Speaker 1: attitude changes when the kids have been on screens too long.
5:42
Speaker 1: When they go outside and they get some nature into
5:44
Speaker 1: their lives, they suddenly become nicer people. I think that
5:48
Speaker 1: I would sum it up by saying this, there is
5:50
Speaker 1: an urgency around protecting young minds, and that's why this
5:55
Speaker 1: legislation matters. I feel like we've lost a generation. Does
6:00
Speaker 1: it discriminate or has everybody affected you? There's a huge
6:03
Speaker 1: amount of discrimination what research seems to show, and it's
6:06
Speaker 1: fairly fledgling research, it's quite nascent, but research seems to
6:10
Speaker 1: show that kids who have a really strong, positive, healthy
6:15
Speaker 1: life outside the screen seem to do reasonably well when
6:18
Speaker 1: they're on screens as well. But kids who have any
6:21
Speaker 1: kinds of offscreen struggles, they retreat to their screens, and
6:24
Speaker 1: that only amplifies and exacerbates the offscreen struggles, but it
6:28
Speaker 1: also invites a whole lot of other challenges because they're
6:30
Speaker 1: so embedded in their screen life, their social media life. Yeah,
6:34
Speaker 1: a lot of people, and this was one of the
6:36
Speaker 1: things that came up on a current affair. I want
6:38
Speaker 1: to play you this snippet. Well, I'd love to bring
6:40
Speaker 1: in Gabby and Matilda here. I want you to explain
6:43
Speaker 1: to me your relationship with social media and your phone.
6:48
Speaker 2: I think, honestly, I have a pretty good relationship with
6:51
Speaker 2: social media on my phone. Obviously, it is a big
6:53
Speaker 2: part of my life, as it is a lot of
6:54
Speaker 2: other young people. But I think the main use that
6:58
Speaker 2: I use it for is connecting with my friends and family,
7:01
Speaker 2: and I think that it allows me to have that
7:03
Speaker 2: connection even if I'm not physically there with them.
7:06
Speaker 3: So, Gabby, do you think you have a healthy relationship
7:08
Speaker 3: with social media. I think it's fairly healthy. I do
7:12
Speaker 3: use my phone quite a bit, but I do set
7:15
Speaker 3: limits on there as well, because I know I need
7:17
Speaker 3: to try to regulate myself. I mean, every now and
7:20
Speaker 3: then I do find myself in that dreaded doom scroll
7:23
Speaker 3: and just scrolling and only just that. But I think
7:27
Speaker 3: it's mostly healthy. Yeah, I'm mostly just talking to friends
7:30
Speaker 3: having a good time.
7:32
Speaker 1: Now when I listen to those two wonderful girls, what
7:35
Speaker 1: I hear stories of self regulation. I hear examples of
7:40
Speaker 1: self awareness and a willingness to pause, think about the
7:43
Speaker 1: way that these tools and technologies are being used, and
7:47
Speaker 1: then be intentional moving forward. They're really good examples of
7:51
Speaker 1: why this ban or why this change might be problematic.
7:56
Speaker 1: And I want to, like, I'm really upfront about it.
7:58
Speaker 1: I don't think that this is necessary for everybody, in
8:01
Speaker 1: the same way that I don't think that gambling laws
8:04
Speaker 1: are necessary for everybody, or alcohol laws are necessary for everybody.
8:10
Speaker 1: Why because there's plenty of people that honestly they love
8:13
Speaker 1: to gamble. I mean, I think gambling. It's not for me.
8:17
Speaker 1: I've never even put a dollar into the Poky's or
8:19
Speaker 1: had a punt on the Melbourne Cup. I'm not a gambler.
8:22
Speaker 1: I've got other things that I would rather do with
8:24
Speaker 1: my cash. But I know several people who gamble. They
8:28
Speaker 1: love it, and they don't have a problem with it.
8:30
Speaker 1: There's no there's no hiding, there's no huge financial loss.
8:34
Speaker 1: They really they set aside some money and they go
8:36
Speaker 1: to the casino or they go to the races, and
8:38
Speaker 1: they have fun and it makes it more fun for them.
8:41
Speaker 1: I get that. I don't endorse it. I don't encourage it,
8:44
Speaker 1: but I get it. And it's the same with alcohol.
8:46
Speaker 1: In spite of that, though, we still have laws around that.
8:49
Speaker 1: Why because we know that harm is done to too
8:53
Speaker 1: great a percentage of the population if we don't have laws.
8:56
Speaker 1: And obstacle to the laws is that many people can
8:58
Speaker 1: do it safely and it's unfair for them. I get
9:02
Speaker 1: that when it's well used, it makes sense, but we've
9:06
Speaker 1: got to draw a line in the sand. And when
9:07
Speaker 1: we draw that line in the sand, it gives parents
9:11
Speaker 1: the power to say to their kids, I know you
9:13
Speaker 1: want this, I know it matters to you. Be guess
9:15
Speaker 1: what the government said, No, it's actually against the law.
9:25
Speaker 1: Another obstacle is that big tech are probably going to
9:28
Speaker 1: mount legal challenges to it. The technology is everywhere, it's pervasive,
9:31
Speaker 1: so it's going to be really hard to get people off.
9:33
Speaker 1: It's going to be one of those things that's a
9:36
Speaker 1: really big challenge, and parents are going to have to
9:38
Speaker 1: be responsible. I mean, enforceability on this is going to
9:41
Speaker 1: be very, very tricky. I believe that what's really going
9:45
Speaker 1: to be necessary is that technology will need to be
9:48
Speaker 1: developed once the legislation is passed where there's some sort
9:51
Speaker 1: of neutral third party, so that we're not giving our
9:54
Speaker 1: personal details to the tech platforms. But there's a government
9:59
Speaker 1: built technolog third party platform that communicates with the tech platforms.
10:03
Speaker 1: So we prove our identity through the government platform, and
10:07
Speaker 1: then the government sends through the little blue tick or
10:09
Speaker 1: the little green tick to the tech platform that says
10:12
Speaker 1: this person is who they say they are and they
10:14
Speaker 1: are of age to me. That's what I think the
10:17
Speaker 1: tech will needs to be. That's going to take years
10:19
Speaker 1: to develop, which means that we still have to deal
10:22
Speaker 1: with this stuff at home in our living rooms with
10:25
Speaker 1: our kids until this gets sorted out. The thing is
10:29
Speaker 1: this matters. I mean, this really matters for the well
10:31
Speaker 1: being of our children and young people. This matters. Social
10:34
Speaker 1: media is the new smoking, and just like it took
10:36
Speaker 1: decades for all the data to be collected so that
10:38
Speaker 1: we could really look at this and say smoking is
10:40
Speaker 1: killing people, this is bad for you. It's going to
10:43
Speaker 1: take a while yet before we have all the data
10:45
Speaker 1: that we need to move in this direction. But I
10:48
Speaker 1: throw a big haymaker on a current affair. This is
10:51
Speaker 1: what I had to say about what the tech company
10:54
Speaker 1: is responsible for. I can't help but think that Zuckerberg
10:58
Speaker 1: and the CEOs, the items of social media industry are
11:02
Speaker 1: responsible for more human suffering among our young people today
11:05
Speaker 1: than pretty much at any point in human history. I
11:08
Speaker 1: just don't think that there's been any kind of technology
11:10
Speaker 1: that's created this level of suffering in our youth. It's
11:13
Speaker 1: absolutely abysmal. And if I can say this a little
11:17
Speaker 1: bit directly, our feckless politicians who have allowed this to
11:21
Speaker 1: happen at a global level have got a lot of it,
11:23
Speaker 1: a lot to answer for, as well the lack of
11:26
Speaker 1: legislation around this. We're just going to introduce this thing
11:30
Speaker 1: and will find proof of harm later. I think that
11:32
Speaker 1: we need to be able to prove that there's a
11:34
Speaker 1: good here before we let people just go for it.
11:37
Speaker 1: And these stories, especially Kim's story, highlight what so many
11:41
Speaker 1: parents are telling me, and that is that social media
11:44
Speaker 1: as a general issue is absolutely at the heart of
11:48
Speaker 1: so much sleep deprivation, so much conflict, so much school avoidance,
11:52
Speaker 1: so much bullying, so much mental health challenge, and the
11:55
Speaker 1: list goes on and on and on. Jonathan Hate says
11:59
Speaker 1: this best when he describes in his book The Anxious Generation,
12:02
Speaker 1: that we've moved from a play based childhood to a
12:05
Speaker 1: screen based childhood, and obviously I emphasize that on a
12:09
Speaker 1: current affair as well. Beyond this, though, there are a
12:12
Speaker 1: couple of other things that we need to consider, and
12:14
Speaker 1: I really hope the government are going to do this.
12:16
Speaker 1: They've indicated that they want to hold tech companies accountable
12:19
Speaker 1: for the full spectrum of harm that happens on social
12:22
Speaker 1: media platforms because they facilitate and allow scams and fake
12:29
Speaker 1: news and body shaming and other harmful practices that I
12:33
Speaker 1: won't go into in this podcast. I want to keep
12:35
Speaker 1: it reasonably light. I know it's a very policy discussion today.
12:39
Speaker 1: It's a bit wonky from a policy perspective, but the
12:43
Speaker 1: government is doing the right thing here. I don't really
12:46
Speaker 1: like government interference. I really think that people should be
12:49
Speaker 1: left to make up their own mind about most things
12:51
Speaker 1: and make their own decisions as much as possible. But
12:54
Speaker 1: I also recognize that there is a need for government
12:56
Speaker 1: intervention and if companies cannot adhere to appropriate practices that
13:02
Speaker 1: consider the well being of our population, we need to
13:05
Speaker 1: make sure that there are rules for those who are
13:08
Speaker 1: going to conduct business in Australia. They're going to take
13:10
Speaker 1: responsibility for the social and the commercial damage that they cause,
13:13
Speaker 1: the emotional and the psychological damage that they cause. I
13:16
Speaker 1: just think this matters so much. So what do we
13:20
Speaker 1: do right now? Is there anything else that I need
13:21
Speaker 1: to bring up and talk about? Just two things beyond
13:24
Speaker 1: those age limits, which is what I've just talked about.
13:27
Speaker 1: What I would encourage you to do as a parent
13:30
Speaker 1: is to jump online and send an email, like literally
13:32
Speaker 1: a three line email to your government representative and just
13:37
Speaker 1: say I heard this on a podcast, I read it
13:39
Speaker 1: in the news. I just want to say I'm right
13:41
Speaker 1: behind this. I want to see this happen for the
13:44
Speaker 1: safety of my kids and for the safety of our
13:46
Speaker 1: society's kids. If you just send them that email, it
13:49
Speaker 1: will take you about two minutes to do it. Just
13:52
Speaker 1: that will make a difference. Why because it raises their
13:56
Speaker 1: awareness of what their constituency wants. In addition, though, because
14:01
Speaker 1: this will take a while, it's got to be legislated,
14:03
Speaker 1: The legislation's got to be built, it's got to be
14:04
Speaker 1: put together. Well, there's going to be challenges to it.
14:07
Speaker 1: Once it finally gets through, technology is going to have
14:09
Speaker 1: to be developed. This will not be a quick thing.
14:11
Speaker 1: This is going to take a few years a few
14:13
Speaker 1: years to get off the ground. In the meantime, we've
14:16
Speaker 1: got to protect our kids, which means that while we
14:19
Speaker 1: need government to do the heavy lifting around the legislative challenges,
14:23
Speaker 1: we've actually got to put into place in our homes
14:26
Speaker 1: that tells me that if you've got a seven year
14:28
Speaker 1: old that wants to be on TikTok, you need to
14:30
Speaker 1: say no. Or if you've got a twelve year old,
14:32
Speaker 1: say no. I've got a website where I'm not trying
14:34
Speaker 1: to sell you anything. It's literally just a website that
14:36
Speaker 1: says we need to unplug childhood. The website's called Unplugged
14:41
Speaker 1: Childhood dot org. I'll link to it in the show notes.
14:44
Speaker 1: Unplug childhood dot org a couple of really simple principles
14:48
Speaker 1: that are there. Number One, we want to remember that
14:52
Speaker 1: kids don't need smart phones. They need smart parents, and
14:55
Speaker 1: smart parents give their kids dumb phones. Your children don't
14:59
Speaker 1: need to be on social media. They don't need to
15:00
Speaker 1: have all of the functionality and accessibility of a supercomputer
15:03
Speaker 1: in their pocket. They just need a dumb phone. If
15:06
Speaker 1: you're concerned for their safety or you want them to
15:07
Speaker 1: be able to contact you if something's going on, and
15:09
Speaker 1: they're not going to be in your presence. Number two,
15:13
Speaker 1: keep kids off social media for as long as you can.
15:17
Speaker 1: I would recommend that you just practice the delayed principle.
15:20
Speaker 1: Talk to them about the things that I've talked about
15:22
Speaker 1: on the podcast today, and let them know you want
15:24
Speaker 1: them to wait until they're at least thirteen, but you'd
15:27
Speaker 1: prefer it to be fourteen or fifteen or sixteen. And
15:29
Speaker 1: you might even come up with some incentives in some
15:31
Speaker 1: ways that you can help them to do that and
15:33
Speaker 1: still feel like they're not missing out, because that fear
15:36
Speaker 1: of missing out is massive, which brings me to the
15:38
Speaker 1: third and final point. The easiest way to do that
15:40
Speaker 1: is to build a great community with the other parents
15:43
Speaker 1: that are involved, the parents who are the parents of
15:47
Speaker 1: kids your children are friends with. Gee I said that
15:49
Speaker 1: in a challenging way. Let me try that again. Your kids' friends.
15:53
Speaker 1: Talk to their parents, create some community, get to know them,
15:56
Speaker 1: send them texts, arrange for the kids to get together,
15:58
Speaker 1: send them down to the park, make sure that everybody
16:00
Speaker 1: knows where they are, give them some freedom. Let them
16:02
Speaker 1: go back to a play based childhood for as long
16:05
Speaker 1: as possible. That's what I was trying to say. More
16:08
Speaker 1: information is available at unplugged childhood dot org. Look, this
16:12
Speaker 1: is a good news story. It's going to take a while.
16:14
Speaker 1: I don't think anything's going to happen in a hurry,
16:16
Speaker 1: but we've got a government who is finally saying we
16:19
Speaker 1: will stand up to technology companies. We will legislate, we're
16:21
Speaker 1: going to stop being feckless. We're going to stop coutelling
16:24
Speaker 1: to the big tech and start doing something to protect
16:26
Speaker 1: children and young people. There will be people who are
16:29
Speaker 1: opposed to it, and they'll make good arguments, many of
16:32
Speaker 1: which I'm sympathetic to. But ultimately I think that the
16:34
Speaker 1: greater good, the common good of our children, needs to
16:36
Speaker 1: come first. And that's where we're up to right now
16:40
Speaker 1: in terms of this news. The Happy Families podcast is
16:44
Speaker 1: produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. If you would
16:47
Speaker 1: like more information to help you to navigate these waters,
16:51
Speaker 1: on the twenty ninth of October. I know it's a
16:53
Speaker 1: little way away yet, it's just over a month away,
16:56
Speaker 1: But on the twenty ninth of October, we're running a
16:58
Speaker 1: webinar called Unplay Childhood that's from six till seven pm.
17:03
Speaker 1: It's part of what we're calling the Screen Smart series
17:06
Speaker 1: six till seven and then from seven to eight we're
17:08
Speaker 1: doing tweens, teens and screens. Okay, so two webinars on
17:12
Speaker 1: the one night, one from six to seven, the other
17:14
Speaker 1: from seven to eight on the twenty ninth. All the
17:16
Speaker 1: details are at happy families dot com dot au. You
17:18
Speaker 1: can get your tickets there if you're a school teacher
17:21
Speaker 1: and you would like your entire school involved, it's part
17:23
Speaker 1: of our Answers with Justin series, and your whole school
17:27
Speaker 1: can sign up and everyone gets a link in the
17:31
Speaker 1: entire school community and you can get everyone on board
17:33
Speaker 1: with unplugging childhood. We'll link to that in the show
17:36
Speaker 1: notes as well. Hope that's helpful, Have a great day,
17:40
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to a Happy Families podcast, and I'll
17:42
Speaker 1: chat with you again tomorrow