Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / Historic Upset in Argentina! What Went Wrong for the All Blacks? Springboks Survive Scare

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Historic Upset in Argentina! What Went Wrong for the All Blacks? Springboks Survive Scare · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

• 0:00
  I was just thinking, I can't wait for the show.
• 0:03
  It's going to be fantastic.
• 0:05
  Valentina deserved to win.
• 0:07
  We missed 40 tackles.
• 0:09
  This opens up the rugby championship.
• 0:11
  Now everyone is backing it.
• 0:13
  It's not a yellow card.
• 0:14
  It's a penalty.
• 0:15
  It's a yellow card.
• 0:16
  He changes Leon.
• 0:17
  I'm so glad to be as on today.
• 0:20
  Who is going into the Eden Park test in the best shape?
• 0:23
  You can never arrive in New Zealand this favour.
• 0:25
  It's especially when you play the Eden Park.
• 0:27
  If New Zealand lose to South Africa, it's an absolute crisis.
• 0:37
  Welcome to rugby rivals.
• 0:39
  I see Trimby's jumped on board as well.
• 0:42
  Everyone's excited.
• 0:43
  There's not much to talk about this week.
• 0:45
  I thought maybe we won't do a show.
• 0:48
  Are you reckon?
• 0:49
  I don't know why.
• 0:50
  Don't be as the white class.
• 0:52
  Why is it the black class this morning?
• 0:55
  I'm in the morning.
• 0:57
  I'm in the morning with that.
• 0:59
  I am in the morning.
• 1:01
  Last week in the jump online, I'm thinking, wow.
• 1:06
  How good is this?
• 1:08
  Our competition.
• 1:10
  This is great.
• 1:11
  The all blacks are going to get through the second test.
• 1:14
  No one's going to be worried.
• 1:16
  Now I'm not sleeping at night.
• 1:18
  I am absolutely gutted to be fair.
• 1:24
  Because I'm like you, Victor.
• 1:25
  I'm just such a passionate all black fan.
• 1:28
  And I don't want to in all these discussions.
• 1:31
  I don't want to take anything away from Argentina.
• 1:34
  Because they thought they were outstanding.
• 1:37
  But it was just a hard watch.
• 1:40
  I think it's probably the worst performance I've seen
• 1:45
  from the all blacks for a while.
• 1:48
  I know how you felt last week, Victor.
• 1:51
  I'm feeling exactly the same this week.
• 1:54
  Isn't it more wrong?
• 1:57
  That went to Africa.
• 1:59
  What do they do?
• 2:00
  They do what we all expect them to do.
• 2:02
  They go physical.
• 2:03
  They go confrontation.
• 2:04
  They go good direct.
• 2:05
  They go kicking game.
• 2:06
  And they do that all incredibly well.
• 2:08
  It's easy for them to go back to that.
• 2:10
  It has changed.
• 2:11
  And this opens up directly championship.
• 2:13
  They do best.
• 2:14
  So it's more difficult for them to go back
• 2:16
  to be in the best version of themselves.
• 2:20
  And I was just kidding.
• 2:21
  And I was just kidding to like you.
• 2:23
  To be fair.
• 2:24
  Yeah.
• 2:25
  I just make you sadder.
• 2:26
  I can see, as I'm talking,
• 2:28
  I can see your glasses get darker.
• 2:30
  Yeah.
• 2:31
  They're going to steam up.
• 2:32
  They're going to steam up shortly.
• 2:34
  No, look, you know, when I analyzed it
• 2:37
  and when I went and relocked it stuff,
• 2:39
  I think, you know, Rassy,
• 2:42
  who's, you know, never scared to make a headline said,
• 2:45
  you know, we were dog shit.
• 2:46
  Last week after that game.
• 2:48
  And it's a pretty fair summary
• 2:51
  of what happened with the All Blacks.
• 2:54
  I think, you know, our defensive line,
• 2:58
  we missed 40 tackles.
• 3:01
  We missed 40 tackles.
• 3:03
  A lot of the other tackles,
• 3:05
  I believe, were quite passive.
• 3:07
  So the defensive line wasn't coming forward
• 3:11
  because after a couple of rucks,
• 3:13
  the Argentinians were actually breaking through
• 3:15
  and getting that extra yard and a yard and a half.
• 3:18
  So it started with that.
• 3:20
  Our kicking receiving game was the worst of scene.
• 3:24
  And that's a little bit of a concern
• 3:26
  because you know that South Africa
• 3:28
  are going to bring that,
• 3:29
  but you know Argentina are going to bring it, right?
• 3:33
  And then I think some of our superstars
• 3:36
  that sometimes can just break a game open
• 3:38
  and turn that feeling that you've got,
• 3:41
  just didn't, you know?
• 3:43
  I think Will Jordan,
• 3:44
  it was the his quietest test mess ever.
• 3:47
  Arti was quiet, you know?
• 3:50
  I think there was just this combination of stuff.
• 3:53
  And Argentina, I thought,
• 3:55
  we're outstanding.
• 3:56
  I thought the tactics were outstanding.
• 3:58
  I think they had a good mix of playing expansive.
• 4:02
  But also their kicking game was next level.
• 4:05
  But they were just very, very good at the breakdown,
• 4:09
  at the defensive line,
• 4:11
  at their tackle line.
• 4:13
  So it was that bad
• 4:15
  that I'm actually not that worried.
• 4:18
  Does that make sense?
• 4:20
  Well, I used to wear an arrogant loss this week
• 4:24
  with a box and I was probably not the right to it.
• 4:26
  I actually think we're more, more,
• 4:29
  we just want to push our game to fall.
• 4:32
  But I want to go back to that arrogant.
• 4:35
  And I think especially maybe South African New Zealand,
• 4:38
  I think we still live in the 90s, early 2000s,
• 4:43
  where we think if we've got a good team,
• 4:45
  we should beat everyone.
• 4:46
  And I think the rugby world has changed.
• 4:49
  I really think so.
• 4:50
  Even South Africa, South Africa against Australia,
• 4:53
  the athlete we were better, we still struggle.
• 4:55
  But I really believe these days,
• 4:58
  I mean, there's five, six teams out there
• 5:00
  that on any day can beat anyone.
• 5:02
  It's not like in the old days where the old blacks
• 5:04
  will have a 90, 85% win record anymore.
• 5:08
  I think it has changed.
• 5:10
  And this opens up the rugby championship.
• 5:13
  I think all of us lost.
• 5:15
  Last week we spoke about it,
• 5:16
  there are three rules raised with Australia.
• 5:18
  Now everyone is back in it.
• 5:20
  And I think it's fantastic for the competition.
• 5:22
  And everyone is so close.
• 5:24
  And if you've got a little bit of an off day,
• 5:26
  or you think you're going to smash up on your minds,
• 5:30
  it's not quite there.
• 5:32
  These other teams can beat you on any day.
• 5:35
  So if you're not on your game,
• 5:38
  there's quite a few teams these days that can beat us.
• 5:41
  It's not like in the early 2000s,
• 5:43
  late 90s where,
• 5:44
  even if you've got an off day, you'll still win the game.
• 5:47
  So I think everyone is much closer.
• 5:50
  I don't disagree with that at all.
• 5:52
  I do not disagree with that at all, Victor.
• 5:54
  I think you're right.
• 5:55
  And I think, you know,
• 5:58
  there's Ricardo sent me a funny clip
• 6:00
  from a New Zealand chameleon guy who I really like.
• 6:03
  You know, he said,
• 6:04
  it's good for the game.
• 6:05
  But that's just,
• 6:06
  it's just an annoying thing.
• 6:09
  When competition's close,
• 6:11
  show me when competition's close, mate, it's good.
• 6:14
  And I think it is,
• 6:15
  I'm really excited about the championship.
• 6:17
  The only question I have for you, Victor,
• 6:22
  is I think that it was more,
• 6:26
  like if we had have played well
• 6:29
  in Argentina had a beatness,
• 6:31
  like I would have been more worried.
• 6:34
  But I just think it was one of those,
• 6:36
  no one played well, I don't believe.
• 6:38
  You know, I thought,
• 6:39
  I think they're criticizing Bowdoin
• 6:42
  and I don't know what you think, Trombie,
• 6:44
  but I thought Bowdoin was really good.
• 6:46
  I don't think I'd take him off,
• 6:48
  unless he didn't execute a kicking point.
• 6:50
  So I don't disagree, Victor,
• 6:52
  but I also think that you've,
• 6:54
  it's three percent, right?
• 6:56
  I reckon it's three percent,
• 6:57
  but I think we were five or six percent
• 6:59
  off our performance.
• 7:00
  You know,
• 7:01
  I watched the South African game
• 7:03
  and the Aussie game.
• 7:04
  And you know,
• 7:05
  my respect for the Australian team
• 7:07
  continues to grow over a week.
• 7:09
  The Springboks are really good.
• 7:10
  And I think you are trying to change your game,
• 7:12
  so I'd get some of those eras, right?
• 7:14
  Because you're trying to play that mix of expansive.
• 7:17
  But, yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
• 7:19
  Tann always gets a BNL JK,
• 7:21
  don't they?
• 7:22
  Tann always gets a disproportionate
• 7:24
  amount of the blium or the pre is dependent
• 7:26
  how the team goes.
• 7:27
  And we all know that Tann's going to perform,
• 7:29
  as well as they're allowed to perform
• 7:31
  on the platform,
• 7:32
  the pack of them,
• 7:33
  set piece, all that stuff.
• 7:35
  The kick, kick return.
• 7:37
  I definitely saw that JK.
• 7:39
  You'll feel that.
• 7:41
  All back supporters will see that and feel that.
• 7:44
  But it looked on characteristic that,
• 7:46
  you know, whatever,
• 7:47
  whatever contest in the year,
• 7:49
  Argentina went after them there.
• 7:51
  They don't get that much joy.
• 7:52
  Argentina obviously is strong there,
• 7:54
  but all blacks don't usually cough up that much ball
• 7:57
  or that many opportunities for teams
• 8:01
  to kind of regather the 50-50s.
• 8:03
  But even the long kicks,
• 8:05
  chasing back long kicks,
• 8:06
  I'm not a little bit loose.
• 8:07
  If it's a little bit loose,
• 8:08
  if a little bit off the touch line,
• 8:10
  that's just where New Zealand punish you.
• 8:12
  They, you know,
• 8:13
  maybe Argentina can see the pressure a little bit
• 8:16
  and they eventually kind of get a scrappy exit out.
• 8:18
  That's when New Zealand punish you.
• 8:20
  Because you think you're gone on
• 8:21
  and then you immediately under pressure again.
• 8:23
  And I agree,
• 8:24
  in the past,
• 8:25
  how many times have we seen Will Jordan?
• 8:27
  Just get his hands free.
• 8:28
  Look for an offload,
• 8:29
  make a line break.
• 8:30
  And it just wasn't there.
• 8:31
  I'm not seeing that.
• 8:32
  You realize how important that is for New Zealand to thrive.
• 8:36
  And then defensively,
• 8:38
  I actually thought,
• 8:39
  rather than it be a New Zealand being passive
• 8:41
  and missing tackles,
• 8:42
  they were actually,
• 8:43
  they actually,
• 8:44
  they tried to introduce a little bit of line speed,
• 8:47
  a couple of times,
• 8:48
  and got stepped and got done.
• 8:49
  And it looked like a team that were trying to kind of move
• 8:52
  or change a little bit in that space.
• 8:54
  I don't know if you guys spotted that,
• 8:56
  but it felt like they were just doing things
• 8:58
  that were on characteristic.
• 8:59
  They were trying to introduce new things maybe defensively.
• 9:03
  And they got absolutely done.
• 9:05
  We know how good Argentina are.
• 9:07
  So many good guys with ball and hand,
• 9:09
  footwork,
• 9:10
  piece, everything.
• 9:11
  That's it.
• 9:12
  If you give them any space,
• 9:13
  and you try and close it quickly with line speed,
• 9:16
  you get done with footwork.
• 9:17
  And that happened a few times against them.
• 9:19
  So Jake,
• 9:20
  so when you had the South Africans last week,
• 9:24
  they made lots of changes.
• 9:26
  They changed their game plan.
• 9:27
  They tried to play a different,
• 9:28
  expensive game.
• 9:29
  It didn't work.
• 9:30
  They lost to Australia.
• 9:31
  And when you look at the Urblex,
• 9:33
  that was, you know,
• 9:34
  a pretty consistent selection.
• 9:36
  They played a game,
• 9:37
  which is something they're very comfortable with.
• 9:39
  And they still got well beaten.
• 9:41
  How did they change that?
• 9:43
  Well,
• 9:44
  what do you mean well beaten,
• 9:46
  Ricardo?
• 9:47
  Well, well beaten.
• 9:48
  Argentina deserved to win that game though.
• 9:50
  Yeah, I'm not,
• 9:51
  I'm not,
• 9:52
  yeah,
• 9:53
  I'm not discreting it that,
• 9:54
  but we still could have won it with eight to go.
• 9:57
  Like, okay.
• 9:58
  So,
• 9:59
  for me,
• 10:01
  so to answer your question,
• 10:03
  it's not,
• 10:04
  it's not in our psyche.
• 10:06
  And this is,
• 10:07
  I don't know what it was like when Victor played,
• 10:09
  but it's not in the New Zealand psyche
• 10:11
  to actually change a losing side.
• 10:14
  Right?
• 10:15
  You normally get a couple of weeks' grace.
• 10:17
  I think there's some tactical things we need to address.
• 10:20
  Like,
• 10:21
  I have never,
• 10:22
  and I'm sure you,
• 10:23
  I'm sure you didn't laugh, Victor,
• 10:25
  because it's not the right word,
• 10:26
  but sometimes when you're upset,
• 10:28
  it's better to laugh than to cry.
• 10:29
  But we had to win that line-out.
• 10:32
  Right?
• 10:33
  And Takia Ho,
• 10:34
  and I don't think it was his fault
• 10:36
  because I just think the line-out in front of him was,
• 10:38
  I don't know whose fault it was,
• 10:39
  but I've never seen an all-black line-out
• 11:05
  so for me,
• 11:06
  I don't think they'll make many changes at all,
• 11:09
  because these young men
• 11:11
  will be really hurting this week.
• 11:13
  And we have the biggest game
• 11:15
  of the century coming up, Victor.
• 11:17
  The biggest game of the century coming up.
• 11:19
  Yeah, I just wanted to jump in,
• 11:21
  and I'm almost with Trimbe on this.
• 11:24
  I think of this one area
• 11:26
  that New Zealand need to sort out this level.
• 11:29
  I mean, these days we all talk about attack,
• 11:32
  we all talk about line speed talk,
• 11:34
  but that aerial battle
• 11:36
  is so big in this modern game,
• 11:38
  especially now that you can't block it.
• 11:40
  And it was not just the aerial battle,
• 11:43
  but all the scripts also went to Argentina.
• 11:45
  They can image it of that.
• 11:47
  The moment they start getting those loose balls
• 11:49
  a little bit quick,
• 11:50
  then their footwear comes into play.
• 11:52
  Those guys run onto the ball,
• 11:54
  they get my momentum.
• 11:55
  Then you're in trouble
• 11:56
  because they speed up the game as well.
• 11:59
  So I think for New Zealand,
• 12:01
  if they can just sort out that,
• 12:03
  then that's also something that takes energy away.
• 12:05
  I mean, you obviously need to run back.
• 12:07
  All of a sudden,
• 12:08
  okay, we're not winning it.
• 12:09
  Now we would need to work hard
• 12:10
  and need to get into line.
• 12:11
  Okay, we want to get the ball back.
• 12:13
  Now they may be rushed a little bit hard
• 12:15
  to try and get it back, make mistakes.
• 12:17
  And so that momentum
• 12:19
  just keep going with Argentina.
• 12:22
  But yes, John, we do have
• 12:25
  one of the biggest games coming up.
• 12:27
  And I've said it,
• 12:29
  I would rather lose to Australians,
• 12:33
  I'd Africa one and go over
• 12:35
  and beat New Zealand at the Edom Park.
• 12:38
  So yeah, it's going to be big.
• 12:40
  So Africa, we also,
• 12:42
  we can't even mention it.
• 12:45
  Don't even mention it on the show.
• 12:48
  We are talking,
• 12:49
  we are talking tradition.
• 12:51
  But the other thing,
• 12:52
  just before we get on to that,
• 12:54
  because I don't want you to even mention it, mate.
• 12:56
  Don't even mention it.
• 12:57
  Not even going to consider it.
• 12:59
  The whole country is already
• 13:01
  in like, no.
• 13:03
  Three yellow cards also didn't help people.
• 13:06
  Discipline was terrible.
• 13:08
  And we spoke about it.
• 13:10
  That's pressure.
• 13:11
  Exactly.
• 13:12
  That doesn't happen in a vacuum.
• 13:13
  That happens because
• 13:14
  because they were under so much pressure.
• 13:16
  And they easily could have conceded
• 13:19
  one or two tries
• 13:21
  at the start of those yellow cards at the end of the first half.
• 13:23
  They were under so much pressure.
• 13:25
  And they're just scrambled so hard.
• 13:27
  Boyd and Barrett had a couple of big,
• 13:29
  perform big moments in that passage of play
• 13:31
  to keep them in the game.
• 13:33
  But yeah,
• 13:34
  these young South Africa,
• 13:37
  those tests match is coming our way.
• 13:39
  Are stressful for you lad and just pure entertainment
• 13:43
  for the rest of us because someone's going to be upset.
• 13:46
  Someone.
• 13:47
  So I'll talk to all.
• 13:48
  I'll ask you first, trimby.
• 13:50
  Was Will Jordan's a.
• 13:53
  I'm not, no disrespect to you, Victor, but you're a forward, right?
• 13:57
  But it's not a yellow car. It's a penalty.
• 14:01
  He changed his name and he knew exactly what he was doing.
• 14:03
  But you know that when you're coming like that, that's the
• 14:06
  actual second to be as on today.
• 14:10
  Yeah, the, the, the, the, the winger, the Argentinian,
• 14:13
  Argentinian winger probably, the only thing that may be,
• 14:16
  maybe, maybe, maybe go the other direction was he just made a little bit of a
• 14:21
  meal of it. He kind of stopped and kind of jumped and it was a bit on, or,
• 14:24
  you made me think, ah, that looks a bit clumsy, but then we look it back.
• 14:29
  The end on view, well, Jordan just turns his shoulder and turns into his
• 14:33
  lean and it was definitely yellow car for me. Sorry.
• 14:37
  Oh, I reckon he hit the deck too.
• 14:39
  100% degree.
• 14:42
  So Victor, just speaking on the half, speaking on the half,
• 14:45
  a big brother and so they ever get what was your first reaction when the
• 14:49
  final whistle went and the all blacks had lost this game.
• 14:52
  To be honest, we did it. I didn't watch it live.
• 14:56
  So I watched about 20, 30 minutes and I, I fell asleep because we did celebrate a
• 15:02
  little bit after the springboard game. And then the morning when I woke up,
• 15:07
  I was just thinking, I can't wait for the show. It's going to be fantastic.
• 15:12
  But no, I mean, it just shows. And like I said, I really believe we forget that
• 15:21
  all the teams are so much closer these days. And if you're not on your game,
• 15:26
  you all get beaten. I mean, Argentina beat New Zealand in New Zealand class.
• 15:30
  They beat South Africa there. So, I mean, they beat the British and
• 15:34
  ice lions in that first day's match. So unfortunately for them,
• 15:37
  at this stage, you guys lost as well.
• 15:44
  I mean, unfortunately for them is just that consistency with Argentina.
• 15:48
  They can get their consistency right. They are threat.
• 15:51
  If they get that momentum in a game, it opens up, it gets loose.
• 15:56
  They have very dangerous sides. So, yeah, unfortunately, I would have actually
• 16:03
  liked New Zealand to win this game, going into the next game a bit overconfident.
• 16:08
  Now they're going to be, they want to show they can come back.
• 16:12
  So it's going to be a massive game in the next game.
• 16:14
  That's a big deal.
• 16:16
  That realization that anybody can win this and the games are far tighter.
• 16:21
  There's way more up for grabs now. And there's way more moving parts with Argentina going well,
• 16:26
  and Australia going well. You mentioned you were celebrating after the Australia game.
• 16:31
  Four or five weeks ago, having won one out of two home games against Australia,
• 16:35
  you wouldn't have anticipated you'd be celebrating.
• 16:38
  You'd be, everybody in South Africa would be into years.
• 16:41
  Until recently, when we realized actually Australia are,
• 16:45
  they're actually a proper team now.
• 16:47
  They're properly competitive. They're properly physical and they're a handful.
• 16:52
  So, I anticipated your response to that would have been very different in, you know,
• 16:57
  maybe halfway through the line test.
• 16:59
  We all thought that second line test was going to be, what do we say,
• 17:04
  40-50 points to the line and how much Australia changed and how much of Argentina changed at the same time?
• 17:11
  No, for sure. I mean, even in this game, I mean, before the record championship,
• 17:19
  if you say, listen, you're beating Australia by six points in Cape John,
• 17:24
  that would have been a bad performance.
• 17:26
  But I mean, even in this game, it felt like we're going to go between,
• 17:30
  but Australia just, they just stick in there and they just keep coming back and they don't make
• 17:36
  mistakes and when they get opportunity, they use it. So, yeah, they're an interesting team to play
• 17:41
  at the moment. It's nothing fleshy about them, but they just really accurate in everything they do.
• 17:48
  So, I think they can surprise a few teams, but that expectation will start ground them as well now.
• 17:56
  So, they will also start feeling the pressure to perform a certain part.
• 18:01
  And that's the same with Argentina. I think this week, after last week's loss,
• 18:05
  it's almost okay, you can't win and then that's when Argentina's at their pace.
• 18:09
  So, they don't feel the pressure. They just carry out their, they just keep everything.
• 18:14
  I think that's part of, I think that's part of where their consistency comes from.
• 18:19
  You know, they would have, they probably would have targeted the first test to win, right?
• 18:25
  And it didn't come off and they would have been smarting all week.
• 18:28
  Yeah, and I don't just think the difference nowadays is so close, you did right.
• 18:34
  So, for me, it just makes for this massive occasion, just this massive, massive occasion.
• 18:42
  I was in the last team that lost, from me, that's how old I am.
• 18:46
  So, we lost to France in 1994, but I also lost to, I mean, I drew.
• 18:54
  So, we drew there as well. I drew, we drew against South Africa, actually, 19 all.
• 19:02
  And it was my last game for the Oblix.
• 19:07
  I'm very close to feel sorry for you.
• 19:13
  Very close.
• 19:14
  I almost got black glasses for you as well to put on, just to mourn with you.
• 19:20
  Mr. J, okay.
• 19:23
  Do you need those Victor?
• 19:24
  I can help you out.
• 19:25
  I can help you out with it here.
• 19:27
  You come down to me.
• 19:28
  So, why did you think of this South Africa performance, actually?
• 19:31
  So, my theory is that South Africa are trying to play a different type of game,
• 19:38
  or have more strings to their bow than just the traditional DNA.
• 19:42
  And I think that we saw that the first five in any game plan is fundamental, right?
• 19:49
  So, Victor, my question to you is, and you love your first five,
• 19:54
  does he give you that ability to play both games?
• 19:58
  I think at this stage, after last week's loss, we just, almost, we need to find that balance now.
• 20:06
  We almost went very conservative, but I think that's what the chat was about.
• 20:13
  Let's look for kicking space.
• 20:14
  So, for me, it's all about, we need to get the balance right as well.
• 20:18
  I think losing Valile Rue just before the game as well,
• 20:24
  set us back a little bit, because we know with Andre playing a 10, almost playing for
• 20:29
  position or territory, Valile is normally the guy that will call the ball for if he sees a space
• 20:36
  out wide. So, I'm probably missing out on Valile on that combination, but again, I think Valile
• 20:42
  is getting a little bit older now, and a guy like Fassie needs to step up and be that guy to
• 20:48
  be able to communicate with a 10 to make the right balls.
• 20:52
  I think this was a performance by South Africa where we're just like, listen,
• 20:56
  if we go back to our DNA, now what we do, we won't lose the test match. It might be close,
• 21:03
  but we won't lose it. So, I think that's what we went back to. Now it's just to get that mix
• 21:09
  between, I mean, in that first off and that first test, our attack looked so good,
• 21:15
  we've never got so easy momentum in the game. So, it's a little bit of finding that balance,
• 21:22
  and also, I mean, we've lost some big players this week, Peter Stafstedtwey, not there,
• 21:28
  Cia not there. So, it's big players to lose just before the test match, we lost John Luttebrier,
• 21:34
  I think three hours before the game, so all three lose forward. So, yeah, I think it's just about
• 21:39
  that balance getting that right. If Willie Lurus is not available, then what happens? Because he's,
• 21:46
  I mean, he's getting a little bit on at this stage, you might not have him for that much longer,
• 21:51
  could someone like Damien Villamser, could he not do just as good a job in the future or can
• 21:56
  fast enough do that? Second set of hands, that distributor, because if it's that important,
• 22:01
  if it completely changes their whole DNA and how they characterize how they attack,
• 22:06
  there needs to be another solution, doesn't there? Yeah, I think they can do it, and I mean,
• 22:13
  I think both of them loves to play their attacking game. I think it's just for them,
• 22:20
  and they're not young anymore. So, I think Valise just got a special skill. That's why he played
• 22:26
  over a hundred test matches, because he's got that skill of seeing space and organising
• 22:31
  and getting the boy in his hand and making the play. So, those two guys, both of them probably
• 22:37
  better under the eyeball. I mean, Fuss is got a big left foot on him, more speed than Villiers,
• 22:42
  well, so it's that one skill that Willie's got that he's exceptional at, but I think both of
• 22:50
  the other guys can do it, and just takes time. And also, I think with a hundred being so
• 22:58
  dominant at 10, for them to have the confidence, maybe to have a right team and say,
• 23:01
  listen, we want the ball, let's go, and for a hundred to trust him and give them the ball at
• 23:05
  the right time. So, Trimby, you're the neutral here, based on what you've seen in the last few
• 23:12
  tests. Who is going into the Eden Park test in the best shape? So, they'll forget all New Zealand.
• 23:18
  I would say probably just about to laugh a go, but just New Zealand at home,
• 23:24
  on the backlash from New Zealand that they're going to get, and all that hurting JK that's
• 23:29
  being kind of visually demonstrated through your black glasses, that that hurt, there's a black
• 23:36
  the land of the long black glasses shaped cloud all the way across New Zealand, both islands.
• 23:45
  I just think that that fuels you, and we saw that that fuel to that figure after hurting
• 23:51
  from that first defeat to Australia in 60 years, whatever. And then just that a week of hurt,
• 23:58
  you channel that in the correct way. I do think it's more difficult for the old blacks to channel
• 24:03
  that because they can't go back to what the back to basics. And actually, I'm not sure if that's
• 24:08
  necessarily always a positive victory there. I think 20 ball people talking about the expansive
• 24:15
  nature, they have to be able to find out middle ground. If every time going expensive doesn't work
• 24:21
  for them, if they go back to basics, they'll never, they'll never move their game, they'll never
• 24:26
  move on. So, pulling it all the way back is okay. If then they get confidence back and then they
• 24:32
  start to layer back up on top of that, which I think you're saying the same thing, but they need
• 24:36
  that second set of hands, they need the ability to be able to do that. But that just felt like
• 24:41
  Razi just saying, right, let's do what we do best. And then we'll build up, we'll start again,
• 24:47
  but they can't start again every single time. The old blacks think it will be hurting. They will
• 24:53
  start again in their own way. But I just feel like South Africa, they've had two proper test matches,
• 25:00
  they probably didn't expect to have. And they're probably better off for them. And they're a little
• 25:05
  bit more bottle hardened than New Zealand would have been. Or bottle to that combination of bottle
• 25:12
  hardened, but also confident they're going to go in and make in their lips. As you say, Victor,
• 25:17
  they would have been in better shape. Had New Zealand won that game because New Zealand,
• 25:21
  now I have that. They're going to use that that hurt as a tool. They're going to lean on that
• 25:26
  and they're probably getting a response from that. It's going to be a great test match.
• 25:29
  I'm going to say this before Victor does. The South Africans are oil champions,
• 25:34
  oil champions, and they're carrying double, double, double champion. But they're also,
• 25:42
  don't they have the championship from last year? So they come in favourites. They are total favourites
• 25:50
  after our last round of New Zealand. They're coming in favourites. They're going to have to win
• 25:53
  the favourites are horrible. That's what Victor told me. I've arrived once at Eden Park as favourite
• 26:01
  beating New Zealand three times in a row before and they smashed us. So I'm trying to be
• 26:08
  saying it, you can nail arrive in New Zealand as favourites. New Zealand's always favourites,
• 26:12
  especially when you play at Eden Park. So yeah, it's going to be a massive test match. It's going to be
• 26:18
  nice balled up. It's one for the history books. I think the previous time we were there, we should
• 26:25
  have won and then they gave best multipliers a red card for one of the best tackles ever
• 26:30
  in World Rack B on Dan Carter. That was a little bit. That was quite possibly. I thought he
• 26:37
  should have got 12 weeks, mate. That was quite possibly one of the best tackles just under
• 26:44
  the chest, one solid head, but yeah, that's what happened. It was so late, it was nearly half time.
• 26:52
  What a time you haven't. You didn't have those glasses at the moment, probably.
• 26:59
  So now it's going to be a massive test match, but I would also have preferred New Zealand to
• 27:05
  sneak this one through against Argentina, going into it, seeing the box struggling a little bit,
• 27:11
  but yeah, they'll be up for it. It's going to be massive, but also I think the box needed this
• 27:17
  because after that Australian first game, it just threw everything out because they had all these
• 27:23
  plants and normally everything worked and all of a sudden they was, wow, okay, now we need to
• 27:27
  step back. And now we had this grind of a win and I think now we can go back to developing the
• 27:34
  game and going for it. There's a couple of things that are really critical for me. I think that
• 27:40
  like the series in South Africa last year, I don't know if you remember it from me, but
• 27:44
  the series in South Africa last year was amazing. I thought the rugby was outstanding from both sides,
• 27:50
  but South Africa won the critical moment. And there was a critical moment and don't get me wrong,
• 27:57
  Argentina deserved to win. But there was a critical moment around that line out. There was
• 28:03
  a couple of critical moments we didn't win. What I think is going to happen is there's no bigger
• 28:08
  motivation for South Africa coming down to New Zealand and trying to take that record away from us.
• 28:13
  And there's no bigger motivation for New Zealand to keep the record, but also place South Africa.
• 28:19
  What concerns me is I believe, trimby, that you're right that they're going to be really hurting and
• 28:24
  they will arrive at Eden Park in the right state of mind and so will South Africa. That's what makes
• 28:29
  it so tantalizing. But my biggest concern is just the critical moments that South Africa have this
• 28:36
  really clear understanding when they're under pressure, you know what they're going to do? They're
• 28:41
  going to work for a penalty, kick you into the corner, more you try for another penalty,
• 28:45
  pick and go, pick and go. That's what that's their DNA. That's what they go to under pressure.
• 28:49
  That's what happened last year in South Africa in both the tests and the critical moments.
• 28:55
  What do we do? Gave away a couple of penalties and let them do that. So for me, the maturity of
• 29:00
  the Soul Black side is going to be really evident at Eden Park because we're going to have to win
• 29:05
  the critical moments. It's going to come down to three points. You know, it's not going to be a blowout.
• 29:10
  It's going to be an amazing test match. So that's my only concern. When you come off a loss
• 29:16
  because you don't have that confidence, right? Just give us an insight, JK. I remember
• 29:21
  and I think it was the 93 lines you lost the second test and really everyone in the country
• 29:27
  climbed into you as a team, you know, basically said that all the old guys needed to get sacked,
• 29:32
  you know, you, Fitzpatrick, Fox, etc. It's a really tough week. How are the players going to handle
• 29:40
  that? When everyone's going to start climbing into them, you know, you're saying, well, Jordan didn't
• 29:44
  play as best game. Are they needed to do this, etc, etc? They're going to have to deal with that
• 29:48
  all week for the next two weeks. How do the players deal with that? And there's that what they need
• 29:54
  to respond or is that just being a pro? I remember you telling me I played like shit too, Ricardo,
• 30:00
  after we had a couple of beers. So thanks for that, mate. Well, you did. But, you know, what the
• 30:05
  all blacks one is the truth, right? So the first thing you need to do is look in the mirror and go,
• 30:11
  okay, what do I need to do and how do I need to get better? You've got to shut out the noise
• 30:17
  and to be fair back in those days, we didn't have the social media noise, right? So I'm very aware
• 30:23
  as you, you know, you are Victor and Trinby because we're ex-plas. I didn't criticize well, Jordan,
• 30:31
  I said he didn't have his best game because if he looks in the mirror, he will know he didn't have
• 30:35
  his best game. So he will block out all that noise and go, what was it? Was it my mental preparation?
• 30:42
  Was it, you know, was it this? Was it that? Am I worried about stuff? And he'll just have to button
• 30:47
  down and really concentrate on it. I was obviously a little bit different mentally. I would physically
• 30:53
  feel sick for two days. So I couldn't sleep or had to struggle to eat just because I felt physically sick
• 31:00
  after losing games like that. But everyone will be different and you're just going to have to deal
• 31:06
  with it. I reckon it's way harder now. I mean, you guys are younger than me. I didn't have to really
• 31:10
  deal with social media, you know, I need it to deal with Ricardo mainly. Yeah, I think this is
• 31:18
  actually a nice thing because after loss like that, because there's so many white noise out there,
• 31:26
  the teams normally turns inwards. So they turn to each other. They start talking to each other.
• 31:31
  What can we do? And that's why teams normally come back much better because all of a sudden,
• 31:37
  they're not listening to everything I say out there, even tell them how good they are,
• 31:41
  listen to this and always suddenly cut all that off, talk to each other, listen, what do we need to do?
• 31:46
  Especially when it's a bit more experiencing that sex stage before. They turn to each other,
• 31:52
  listen, talk out to each other as well and they go out and they perform. So I think a lot of the
• 31:58
  time that's good because sometimes when it goes too well, players like to listen how good they are
• 32:04
  and follow everything that just gives them all these, all the credit and everything. So sometimes
• 32:10
  it's good just to turn inwards, talk to each other, let's fix it within those four walls.
• 32:16
  I reckon it probably goes both directions. In countries like South Africa and New Zealand,
• 32:21
  where rugby is just part of the cultural DNA. In Ireland, we probably don't have that quite
• 32:26
  so much everywhere else. We don't have that maybe to the same extent, maybe in France, I'm not sure.
• 32:31
  But it feels like when things are going well or things are going a little bit well, they go
• 32:36
  amazingly well because everybody gets behind it and the whole country becomes this juggernaut of
• 32:40
  confidence and it's hard to go to that country and play that country on site in their backyard
• 32:47
  and then overcome that. It just seems like a big, big challenge. But the other way it happens as
• 32:53
  well, I'm sorry, France is another good example where their supporters get on their back if things
• 32:57
  aren't going well. And you start to kind of run at these scenarios in your head. If New Zealand
• 33:03
  lose to South Africa, it's an absolute crisis. It's a complete crisis. The entire country is just
• 33:10
  it's a disaster. And then where do they go from there? And then they start catastrophizing everything.
• 33:15
  Imagine we lose a game. Where do we go from here? And do we just replace rugby as the national
• 33:23
  as the national sport? Do they all start playing tennis or golf? What do we do? It's that kind of
• 33:29
  crisis. If you just come from the pub or something, we're just enjoying this. I just enjoy it.
• 33:37
  Chilling yourself. I really just like you. I knew we would get to this point. Everybody gets to
• 33:43
  this point with me eventually, JK. And it took longer than I thought it would. But the the
• 33:48
  turning into themselves, Victor is an interesting one because you can do it once. How many times
• 33:53
  you guys may be having, but if you've played for a team like Ulster, where we've been up and dying
• 33:58
  and up and dying or Ireland, actually, as well, through the years, you have a crisis meeting on
• 34:03
  Monday morning. You're going, okay, we've lost a couple of big games here. And I, this is an
• 34:07
  inflection point. It goes either this way or this way. And your crisis meeting is right last
• 34:11
  pull it together. But if you follow that with, there's another crisis meeting next week. Then I
• 34:17
  think it changes. You turn to each other. You're supportive one week. And then you turn on each
• 34:20
  other the next week and that changes very quickly. There's another option. There's another option.
• 34:25
  And that's the Steve Henson option. And he got terribly criticized when he said it. But he said
• 34:31
  it was such a shit performance. We just flush it down the toilet. And that is actually another
• 34:36
  option. That is an option where you just go one out of the bag. We need to improve these three
• 34:42
  things. We're not even going to watch it. Just move on. And I think that the most important thing
• 34:49
  for me is, Will Jordan is one of the greatest rugby players in the world. Adi Savia is one of the
• 34:55
  best rugby players in the world, Bowden Barrett. There's no talk that they are over or too old.
• 35:03
  The talk is we didn't perform as a football team. So I think it's a little bit different
• 35:10
  back when we played Riccata because people used to retire. They used to tell you to retire.
• 35:14
  And they used to talk about your age. But like, Will Jordan's probably had 200 games where I've
• 35:19
  never seen him play poorly. You know, he just had a quiet game. But he'll be really hurting with
• 35:25
  that. And what I'm saying is we need those guys in those critical moments. So I don't want them to
• 35:31
  lose confidence in themselves. I don't need any of them going. And I don't think they will,
• 35:36
  guys, because they're mature professionals. You know, they'll go back to, you know, we say
• 35:42
  bone deep preparation. Did they do the bone deep preparation last week? And maybe they didn't,
• 35:46
  maybe they had a few too many, you know, brides as you would call them victor. You know, maybe they
• 35:53
  just thought they were bone deep, but they were. So hopefully there's a simple solution.
• 35:58
  But you have to shut it out. I mean, you are. There's so many great players I played with
• 36:05
  that couldn't actually shut it out or deal with the next level. So it takes a special player to
• 36:10
  play Tismatch. It just takes a special player to play X amount of Tismatch as like an RD and
• 36:16
  like a Will. And they will shut it out. And they will be outstanding. I'm with Victor. I think it's
• 36:21
  actually a good thing that we lost. But there's other parts of the game that I'm worried about.
• 36:25
  You know, the bench coming on, making a couple of eras, those critical moments, you know,
• 36:29
  this is more about who's going to win that Tismatch. Victor, I've never seen this before.
• 36:34
  But we've spoken about it. I'm not sure in a show. We've spoken about it. And it's also to have
• 36:39
  the right players on the field when that pressure moment comes. Because I just felt, and I mean,
• 36:44
  I looked in that last 10 minutes, the mistakes. I mean, I think there was three minutes left or
• 36:51
  four minutes left. Argentina kicked that long kick into the 22. And you guys just kicked
• 36:57
  the ball out and you nine points behind it. I'm like, this can't be the right decision right now.
• 37:01
  And we felt it lost. We could say when we were under pressure, we didn't have the right players
• 37:08
  on the field. So you need to make sure a special at last 20, 30 minutes when the pressures on you
• 37:15
  need the right players on the field. No changes. No, you can't change. But you must know,
• 37:21
  let's say you've got a guy, I don't know, but with us, if you've got 100 ball out there,
• 37:27
  you won't him being the last 10, 15 minutes. You can't, there's no way you can take him off if
• 37:33
  Tismatch is a pressure game. Because he will win those moments, he will make the right decisions.
• 37:39
  Where some of the other guys might not make the right decisions because they haven't been there,
• 37:43
  they haven't been in those situations. So, yeah, for me, it's a lot of the time these days,
• 37:49
  you see people pulling their captain or someone and I'm thinking, this is tough as time.
• 37:56
  When I was playing, when those tough times were coming, I don't want to go. I wanted to be in the
• 38:01
  field. I want to be in that moment to have that opportunity to make the big play. And those are
• 38:06
  the plays that you want them to feel. Do you think going into this Tismatch, Victor, that South
• 38:11
  Africa will be able to find that right balance? They've tried one way then they win another way.
• 38:17
  Obviously, the idea is to go into a Tismatch and play the right balance. Play expansive
• 38:23
  when it's on and tighten up when they need to. Do you think they're in a place now where they can
• 38:28
  make those decisions? I think they will feel a little bit more comfortable this week
• 38:34
  that they think, okay, we can breathe again. Last week they couldn't breathe in South Africa.
• 38:39
  I promise you and it was almost like Trimby said, if we lost another game, it was like all of a sudden
• 38:45
  there's squads to all. This is done. We need to change. This Russia is still good enough and I mean
• 38:50
  Russia is, Dr. Russia is in South Africa. So that pressure was just so high. But going to New Zealand,
• 39:01
  I don't think, I think the way to beat them is playing South African rapi, the way we played
• 39:06
  on this week. Don't give them anything. Just smaller them in their own half. Kick those eyeballs on
• 39:12
  them. Don't give them space. Use your set piece. So that's still my thinking. Russia doesn't always
• 39:21
  think like that. So you might be a bit more attacking. But like JK said, last year as well,
• 39:27
  when we're under in trouble, under pressure, we went back to the DNA and we pulled those games
• 39:34
  through. So I think that's the way we should beat them. I wonder if South Africa, the right approach
• 39:41
  for South Africa might be to do a game plan like the one you described for the first 60 minutes,
• 39:47
  65 minutes. And if they feel like then they're starting to get that pressure starting to tell.
• 39:52
  Now they're starting to, you see, they're coughing up a couple of balls or maybe South Africa
• 39:56
  just starting to get a little bit more quick ball. Then they introduced that that expansive nature
• 40:01
  and just put the ball into the hands of Corby and the rest of the outside box and just let them
• 40:06
  run at that stage. So do the hard work for a 60, 65 minutes and then the pressure might do.
• 40:12
  The only problem with that is that's not what happened against Australia. They did that and they
• 40:16
  never actually got to that. You know, it never played out like we've seen it in the past. So I wonder
• 40:21
  if that game that game is effective enough to get that game against Australia across the line.
• 40:29
  But will it be effective enough to beat New Zealand and New Zealand? And then the game kind of
• 40:33
  unravel or loosen up towards the end that'll allow them to add that layer of a different type of
• 40:38
  game plan. Maybe we've seen it in the past, but just we didn't see it for the last couple of weeks.
• 40:43
  That's a concern. And JK, are the South Africans underestimating our fullback? Because again,
• 40:49
  when you look at that Argentinian game, when we run the pressure, we went back to scrumming for
• 40:54
  penalties, kicking to the corner, mauling over for a try. So can we not match them at that level?
• 41:01
  Yeah, of course we can, Ricardo. That's, that's like, they want to play like South Africa.
• 41:07
  See, that's a reduction. That's a reduction. That's both of that's all three of you being
• 41:11
  ridiculous on this show today. That's like, it sounds like when you realize like 60% of New Zealand
• 41:18
  is Irish mate, like you sound like you're supporting South Africa. But anyway, we'll get back to that.
• 41:22
  To answer your question, Ricardo, I think there was a time where South Africa set the standard
• 41:30
  of scrumaging. And I'm talking, you know, 15, 20 years ago. And New Zealand has always had South Africa
• 41:38
  as the pinnacle of scrumaging, possibly England. So you have to win your set pieces. And this is
• 41:46
  the way you're talking about this, right? I don't, I don't think when we talk about South African DNA,
• 41:52
  you're always going to have a great line out with massive men like Victor and that nothing changes.
• 41:56
  So they've got three or four options. They're very, very competent at the scrum and they're massive men.
• 42:02
  When I think about South African DNA, it's actually when they get round the corner and you've just
• 42:06
  got these big men just charging at you, you know, they'll target the inside channel. They'll target
• 42:12
  Bowden Barron if he's playing. They'll try and get over the vanstein. They just get this roll on,
• 42:16
  right? And they're waiting for you. And I'll tell you what, the discipline of New Zealand from the
• 42:21
  offside point of view was totally unacceptable. You get offside against South Africa, then they go
• 42:26
  to their DNA, right? They're going to go, we've trundled it up, we're going to kick you to the corner
• 42:31
  and then we're going to mull you, right? And I just think that if you can't match them in the scrum
• 42:36
  or in the line out, then you don't have a game. That's the minimum, right? But then you've got to
• 42:42
  match their physicality and then you've got to stay completely clean so you don't give them that
• 42:46
  chance to go to the penalty kick to the corner, I'm going to mull you and then I'm going to scrum you.
• 42:56
  Now last year, the New Zealand back actually did really well in South Africa. The scrum was solid.
• 43:02
  Actually, I think the lineup was probably better than ours and the mulling game was good.
• 43:07
  So that's something we actually haven't seen from South Africa so far this year. It's the mulling game.
• 43:13
  Play a lot of four and five men, play away from it. So we are. It will be interesting to see if we
• 43:19
  go back a little bit of mulling. That will be good for me. I will enjoy that.
• 43:23
  Just think, you know, here we are, you know, Victor's enjoying a week after the All Blacks loss.
• 43:30
  And already we're starting to talk about that game with Eden Park. It's not this weekend.
• 43:34
  It's still got a bit of time to go, but that's how big that game is. It's how exciting an
• 43:38
  opportunity it is for us to really embrace this rivalry and then to have Trimby just to wind us
• 43:44
  all up. So let's thank you, Victor. Thank you for enjoying this week so much, Victor. And I'm glad we've
• 43:50
  given you so much enjoyment. Jimmy, I'll send that spring luck jersey over for you in the career.
• 43:55
  So it'll be there by Wednesday, I think, okay?
• 43:59
  Sense of Bill Tongue. Sense of Bill Tongue. Yeah, Bill Tongue.
• 44:02
  Bill Tongue as well. Thank all three of you for ignoring the hell out of me for 45 minutes.
• 44:07
  That's great. Thank you. JK, given how sad you and the rest of New Zealand are.
• 44:13
  What's the plan with the ice best this week? Just drop it down to one or two degrees.
• 44:17
  Go actually for a whole extra long. What do you do? Just going to punish myself so I feel
• 44:21
  better because I can't actually do anything about the game. So I stick my head in for as long
• 44:27
  as I can and see what happens. I think I think a lot of people will enjoy that.
• 44:31
  Thanks very much to the one and we'll catch you next week guys.