Latest / The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders / The Force Multiplier with Tony Chatman
Transcript
- Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in everyone. You are listening to the Authority Podcast here on the Be Podcast Network. Thanks as always for being with us. Glad to have you for a conversation today where we're going to be talking about leadership and particularly leadership focused on teams where everyone wins, right? And and a lot of important ideas here, things that. Get overlooked Often, I think certain things that are under discussed often when we talk about think about leadership, or even when we reflect on our own leadership, so. Excited to have my guest, Tony Chapman, here to discuss. For over 20 years, Tony has partnered with some of the most successful organizations in the world, including Chase Bank, the US Secret Service, Phillips [00:01:00] 66, clear Channel, and St. Joseph's Health. He specializes in bridging differences in perspectives, communication styles and experiences by addressing the universal need we all share to feel valued and seen. I have a feeling that's going to come up some more. Tony is a scientist and a chemical engineer. As well as a husband, father, and a former leader of a nonprofit dedicated to community upliftment. He combines all of those experiences with intellect and humanity and is equal parts head and heart. So I think all of that gives you a good foundation and context for this discussion. Tony's book is called The Force Multiplier, how to Lead Teams, where Everyone Wins. Tony, welcome to the show. Tony Chatman: Hey Ross. Thanks so much for having me. Ross Romano: I wanted to start with, of course, we talk leadership a lot here and it's kind of one of the through lines here and our listeners are leaders and felt like a great place to start is. Identifying the angle that you're coming at it with, right? What is in your [00:02:00] mind when you think about leadership and what leaders should be? I wanted to, I guess, ask like, what should be the mission statement of leadership? I think that'll give us a good understanding of what is underpinning this book as we'll. Talk about what you write, right, and the different styles and tactics of leadership, what. What we should be aspiring to when we are saying and I know you write about really that you can't be being an effective leader means you need to be leading people effectively. Right? And so leadership as an action as what you're doing versus your title. But yeah, I would love to hear you just kind of define what someone should be thinking when they are saying, I want to be a leader, or I want to practice leadership. Tony Chatman: Sure. That's a great question. So what I would like to do is take you back to a very specific day in my life. I had a very close friend, he high ranking officer in the US Army, [00:03:00] and he was once again being deployed to Afghanistan. Right. So this is a good friend. This is not just some, any old friend. This was a person who our lives were intertwined with, our spouses were close, our children were close. So I was pretty moved by knowing he'd be gone for a year. So we decided to host a going away celebration, party, whatever, I don't know. Call it what you want to, at our house had about 40 or 50 people. There was a point in time after eating, drinking, all this other stuff where we just went around the room and shared, and there was a mutual friend of ours who's a high ranking officer, and he had been to a number, what he coined these deployment parties for many times. So I knew he'd have something very unique to say a different perspective. I wasn't prepared for what he'd say. He said, you're what I call a force multiplier, because by your very present, you bring out the best in everyone around you. I'm sure he said some other stuff. I don't remember. I was fixated on that [00:04:00] phrase because as a person who does teach training, coach on leadership, I've heard so many definitions. Everything from leaders change the culture, leaders create and hit the mission leaders, make other leaders. But the idea that the leader is to bring out the best. Everyone was, I don't know if it was foreign to me, but it resonated in such a way that it gave me a new language to think about how we should lead. Because often leaders, they're good at leading certain people and they're not so effect at leading others. So that's a long way of saying my mission statement for leaders is when you step into the role of leadership. Your goal is to make everyone better than they were before you got there. That means more effective, that means more productive, but actually [00:05:00] better. And if you don't, then it becomes hard to justify your existence. (ad here) Ross Romano: Is there a particular part of that. That you noticed when you're looking at what's often written about leadership or or how leadership is often discussed, that stands out as either, I mean, the idea of your job as being to make everyone better, is it, I guess. Just frequently not made part of the definition. Is there a common definition of leadership that is sort of in opposition to that idea? Tony Chatman: I don't know that there's anything in direct opposition to that idea. I think what happens is people often define what leadership is. Based on either what they have seen or what the current needs are of their organization. So if an organization needs to create more leaders, then a great leader is one who creates [00:06:00] more leaders. If a leader needs to navigate change, then a great leader is one who leads through change. And so all those things are true. But I think there's a fundamental thing and I do there's a part of me that thinks that at one point this was true somewhere back in the past that this was an expectation of leadership. But somewhere, I just think it's gotten diluted as business has become more complex and there are all these other nuances that have to be added that's just been forgotten. Ross Romano: So I guess, what does it mean to make everyone better? Right. Like, what does that look like? Can it be done? Is it one-to-one? Is it one to many? Does it involve inspiration, micromanagement? I mean, what are the elements of it? When we think about like how leaders accomplish this? Is there one way or are there a variety of ways? Tony Chatman: The answer to all of that is yes it is completely situational. I think it, it's I have this thing where. I [00:07:00] refer to, it's awfully of the her mentality. I'm gonna do this one thing and it's going to change everyone. And that's just not real. We're all individuals, we're all individually motivated. We have different needs, goals, agendas, strengths, weaknesses, experiences, and so it takes a lot more to understand. Who the people are on your team now, there are some basic things kind of fundamental that everyone's gonna need. They're gonna need. To be valued, right? People want to feel valued. How they feel valued may change by person, but they want to feel valued. They need direction, they need to be trained, they need to have the resources to complete their work. So all of those things are kind of gonna be in there, but then it's gonna change based on who the person is. And that's where it takes a lot more effort and work and focus. So it is a very individual answer. Ross Romano: Are there certain, I guess competencies and you know, you write about relationship based leadership and [00:08:00] that being a really effective approach. I'm wondering like what's foundational to that? What is required to, I guess, begin? To use that approach to leadership and what does it mean to to start to enter into building relationships and then being able to lead. But I would guess, and you can tell me first, but the relationship comes first, right? And then once you have the foundation of that. Then you can maybe set up to lead but that it would be a little harder to back into it. But you tell me. Tony Chatman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do wanna clear something up 'cause it's easy to listen to this and say, okay, this all sounds soft. Right. Okay. It's gonna be a relationship. It's warm and fuzzy. It's No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It is. I am building a connection with the people I lead. I'm doing so, so that they trust me, they respect me, they understand that I value them, so that [00:09:00] when chaos comes, those things are no longer in question. Right? So competencies that are really important. Great communication skills because you're going to have to be able to give people the direction and the vision and their purpose and you know their role under various circumstances. Often it's said somewhere around 80% of a person's leadership effectiveness is determined by their communication skills. So I'm gonna start with that. Then I'm gonna say your ability to delegate, right? And delegate is one of those fascinating things. I have really, I'm gonna be honest with you, I have really grown in my delegation in the last two and a half years way after writing this book because the reality is, it is so much easier to do it on your own because you can often do it faster and you can get it done the way you want it to be done. But the truth is, that's no longer leadership That's. Contribution of an [00:10:00] individual. And so part of leadership is being able to effectively delegate and there's a science to that, right? I get into it a bit in the book, I think, no, not, I think I know another part of it. And this is two things you have to balance. Correcting poor behavior and performance while rewarding great performance. Those two things. People are often good at, one or the other. They're really good at correcting and they challenge, but then they don't reward and give recognition. When people go above and beyond the court of Call of Duty or the opposite, they go above and beyond the call of duty, but they let too much stuff slide. And then it, what it does is it dilutes the expectations of the team. And so those are just four basic things I would start with. Ross Romano: Yeah. Tony Chatman: Oh, can I wanna fill this in there though. Can I? I'm so sorry. I think, no. So I was having this conversation earlier today with a branding coach, and [00:11:00] I was talking about one of the things you have to realize is there's difference, there's a difference between leadership skills and leadership characteristics. So those are skills that people need to have. But I also believe that there are characteristics they need to have. They need to be emotionally mature, they need to be learners, and they have to have the ability and willingness to grow. Those are three things that I also believe are critical to leadership success. Ross Romano: Yeah. Are they, can anyone do it? I mean, are the characteristics learnable? Are certain people more predisposed to leadership? I. Tony Chatman: I think the ability to influence people, anyone can do. Okay. And that's why the idea of the force multiplier is really more about influence than position. I do believe that people have certain, characteristics that may limit their ability to be leaders until they're [00:12:00] overcome. Emotional maturity is one of the biggest ones because if you cave under stress and you use that then against your team members because you're stressed, that's damaging, right? So I do believe the skillset anyone can learn. Over time, I believe anyone can become a leader or a person of influence, but there's levels to this. They're not all gonna be the same or have the same capabilities. Ross Romano: Yeah. What do so, so much of the importance of effective leadership especially tangibly is in, I. Employee engagement, retention, satisfaction, productivity I mean, and there's the big picture goals about what is the potential of an organization, where can it go to? But on a day to day it really manifests in what's happening with the staff, the team. Are [00:13:00] they happy with where they are they happy with who's their supervisor? Right? And that well known. Fact or statistic or whatever you wanna call it about you know, people leaving managers not companies, not jobs. Right. But what do I guess, like, what does the general typical employee want in a leader? Do they want to be led at all? I like what, like when a leader is coming at this and conceiving of what is required I feel like. Part of that is getting in that mind space. Some of it is the importance of, I guess, being. It is being self-aware, self-reflective. I think many times as we are working toward what we believe to be that leadership role or position or even just within a team, peer to peer leadership we're so focused on what we want to do [00:14:00] once we're in that role. And then once you're there. I almost forget what it was like when you were in the other seat and what your perspective was on whoever was in the leadership chair at that time, and what were the things that they either were or were not able to establish with you and that you're kind of, you need to have the right starting point, right? 'cause you can have a great vision, great ideas. A lot of care for the work in the organization. You can be conscientious about what you're doing, and yet there can still be a disconnect if. The people you're meant to be leading haven't yet decided that they are interested in being led by you? I would think, but but you know, I guess what are people looking for in that regard? Because that's a, hey, that's an important, like it's all subjective, right? And you need to lead people in a way that they are willing to be led. Tony Chatman: Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, there's a lot to unpack there. The first [00:15:00] thing I always tell new leaders, manager, supervisors, is for the first three to nine months. People are not treating you based on who you are. They're treating you based on who the previous leader was, right? They're, you're establishing yourself, but they still think you're that old person, and so that, that's the establishing of yourself becomes really critical. I often give new supervisors or managers the 30 day challenge. I say, okay, here's what I want you to do for 30 days, regardless. Of how they treat you. I want you to treat every one of your employees with dignity and respect. That does not mean don't challenge them. That does not mean don't call them higher. That does not mean not have expectations of them, but dignity and respect, you are setting a pattern of expectation because most employees want that. Beyond that, there's a reason why so much the of the book goes into different personalities. My experience. Is [00:16:00] that, and when I say my experience, I mean my personal experience of being a leader, but also working with various leaders in various industries and various organizations, understanding how people are differently motivated, how people differently perceive the world and perceive the workplace and how people are, what it takes to connect with different people is, if you get it. It becomes your competitive advantage. If you miss it, it becomes your Achilles heel. It's really that big because you know, you used all these examples, you said a lot of things, and it was also important because there are people who absolutely like to have tons of communication to the point where other people would call it micromanaging. They want that. They want that direct directness. They want no ambiguity. There are other people who will absolutely lose their mind. If you give them that much detail. They will say, stop micromanaging me. You don't trust me. And so [00:17:00] understanding that is really important at the beginning. Can you do all of that? No, you can't. It takes time to establish that. It takes time to establish the relationship. I strongly suggest to people at the beginning have the conversation, Hey, okay, hey, I'm new in this role. My goal is to help everyone in this group be better. Okay? Means I'm learning each of us, we're all in different places. We have different strengths, different areas of opportunities for advancement and improvement. Okay? But I want you to know that. I am working on your behalf. Okay. We are on the same team and I'm, I mean, I'm even different. I'll tell people, okay, look, I'm gonna tell you exactly about myself. I know this. Okay. Because you need to understand this about me personally. When something out of the blue comes and it's massive and has an impact on us, here's what's gonna happen. I am going to freak out. For two to three minutes. Okay? That's gonna happen. Okay? If [00:18:00] you're around that time, don't take anything personal. It has zero to do with you. Then my engineering brain kicks in. I become laser focused, and all I care about is fixing stuff. Okay? It's very easy to misinterpret both of those, but because I'm communicating with you ahead of time, I want you to know. That's what's gonna happen. It's it actually, I'm trying to be in your best interest, but I know my weaknesses. Okay? So I'm letting you know this now, when it happens, I'll probably have to remind you again after it happened. Hey, this is not about you, but I'm setting up these expectations because I'm actually self aware. But what I wanna make sure does not happen is in those moments you misinterpret this is, I am no longer for you, but I'm now against you. Because if you believe that we're never gonna get done what we wanna get done, we're never gonna become what we wanna become. Right. You know, the, we use, you used the word engagement [00:19:00] earlier, and I think people have various definitions of the word engagement. My definition of the word engagement is very simple. Engagement is how much someone cares. Because they care. What are they willing to do? So we talk about emotional commitment, rational commitment, going above and beyond all of those things. It's really a sign of how much do they care If they care, they take ownership. If they don't care, they say, that ain't in my job description. So it's when you understand that it's that simple, then I'm managing how much they care. And there's different ways to do that. But that's really my focus. (ad here) I think it it's always dangerous to say that anything is universally true, right? There's always exceptions but I think one of the things that would be true in the widest array of circumstances is that, [00:20:00] people who are part of a team whom, whom are be one is leading. Ross Romano: And different types of organizations, regardless, they are most likely to connect with that leadership and to fulfill their potential perform at their best. If they see that it's. It's in their interest to do so, right? That, that they are getting something out of it. And that's true in all different types of organ, right? There's a very different type of leadership structure in the military versus in a corporate setting versus in the government versus in on a sports team, right? It looks different in all those cases, but in all the scenarios, it's. Is it in my interest to do what I'm being told to do here by the leader? And that certainly is the difference between compliance and engagement and [00:21:00] fulfillment of potential. Right. And it's, and I come back to that because, and I was just listening today. This is, it was from a handful of years ago, but I'm just listening to it now. But there's a podcast about. The Seattle Supersonics and how they eventually ended up moving to Oklahoma City. But the the part today was about the brief period where Howard Schultz, the former Starbucks, CEO, owned the team and some of the difficulties he had in. with the players because he wanted to inspire them with the type of leadership that he was used to using in the corporate setting. And the same thing didn't necessarily work for professional athletes because the things that are in their interest and what they're incentivized and motivated by is not. The same thing, right? And so if you are on a guaranteed contract to make you know what, [00:22:00] however much you're making, and it doesn't really matter what you do, like, you need to be motivated in a different way than someone who is trying to climb the corporate ladder. You know, another part you mentioned like knowing your weaknesses. You know, some of the, those interviews said, well, he didn't really know much about basketball. Right? Like he was a good guy, he knew a lot of things, but like. When it came to that stuff there, there was a disconnect because some, it was easy for people to dismiss. Well, he doesn't really know that much about this thing that we're doing here. But anyway, the point being that it was about as I took away from it, one of the things was a failure to identify what actually. Motivates these people that I'm trying to lead, and what are their incentives and what is gonna be in their interest? What are they going to want to lead? And I mean, that's you know, that whole thing is challenging because that's one industry where for the most part the leader is the. Lesser compensated lesser, [00:23:00] often lesser empowered, right? The coach makes less money than the players, and is usually more likely to be on the hook, et cetera. In this case the owner is more wealthy, but still, when you have, you're getting your money regardless. Anyway, that's a long digression, but I think it's just like. It was one illustration of different environments where one style, one person who is a highly effective leader in certain settings, if they don't adapt and adjust to the people they're leading in a different setting, it falls completely flat. And it's not a reflection on, well, this person's just not a good leader. It's you have to lead who you're trying to lead in the moment. Tony Chatman: No. Absolutely. And you know, it, it is funny because the opposite of that is of course Mark Cuban, right? Mark Cuban comes in and he is I. You know, from tech, from Yahoo, these are the things, but he went in and figured out what was important to the players, [00:24:00] right? Players want to be number one. The most important thing to them, normally after money is playing time and then championships, right? But you know, things like how they traveled, he changed how they traveled. He changed their locker room because he went and he got to know the different players. And that goes back to what we were saying earlier, is getting to know the people on your team. Because what happens, and I think what you're, what you just alluded to is leaders become superstitious. Right. Not superstitious in you know, seven years, bad luck. 'cause I broke a mirror. But I did this one thing one time and it worked. So it must always work. And every time something happens, I'm gonna do that one thing because it works. And if it doesn't work, it's not because my one thing didn't work, it's the people. I'm gonna blame the people. 'cause my one thing is awesome, right? And that's what happens when you're married to your leadership style. [00:25:00] And so we definitely have to have some, so a bit of fluidity. With how we lead so that we can adapt to the situation and the people that we're leading. Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. I've always felt that if it, if you approach it, and this goes back to the very beginning, but if that it is your job is to. Ensure that your people can be successful to set them up for success, to position them. Yes, hiring the right people, like knowing what to look for, knowing how to evaluate talent those are all important elements, but I've always had to. Perhaps exaggerated breakdown, but I'll say it's 20% about hiring the right person. 80% about what you do next. Look, sometimes some people are just such superstars that it almost doesn't matter what you do they're going to succeed. But for most people, the organization matters, right? If you're the number one pick in the draft as a quarterback, it really matters what organization you're going into and. You know, and you'll [00:26:00] even never even know how good or bad you would've been in another situation. 'cause the situation really matters. And if the leaders approach it like that and say, look. You know, what are we doing with our onboarding? Are we providing resources? Are we communicating a vision here for what we do? Are we set setting up the right team around this person? Am I giving them opportunities to pursue things that fit with their goals and ambition and development and growth, right? And when things we hit some hiccups. Am I. All of a sudden saying, oh, you know what? Oh, I guess maybe I hired the wrong person. Or am I saying what do I need to do differently to make sure, what did I miss? Where did we what do we need to reinforce here and set up? But I do, I mean, I've certainly observed it that I think it, it happens very often, right? That it's, you can't. It. Some people treat it like it's really hard for [00:27:00] others to. Develop equity in their position, right? It's like at the second anything goes wrong. We're rethinking are they the right person versus, you know what? We have a lot of evidence that they are, because when we hired them here and they did these other things, and this one instance and I'm talking about performance issues, right? Not ethical things, but that. that evidence that we were all wrong about them and actually that we need to get somebody else or situational and let's figure out how to work this better. Tony Chatman: If people could see us, they would see me nodding in agreement the entire time we're talking. Right. So, alright let's back this up for a second. I'm gonna talk pretty directly, even though I've been talking about relationships and people probably still have a problem, but some may still have a problem with, is this really soft, warm, and fuzzy? Okay. First thing is leaders have to take responsibility, right? Before I blame anyone, [00:28:00] I'm leading. Have I done everything within my power to ensure their success? Have I given them the training? Have I given them the resources? Am I there for 'em? Am I and here's the big one. Am I getting feedback so that I know what possible obstacles are actually out there? So that, that's kind of the, I used to sit in that seat, but I don't any longer. But if I'm out of touch with what their daily life is like and all of the other things that are going on. I may not be able to help them, so I need to know that I need that feedback. Okay. That being said, if we're going to be honest, way too many people are prematurely thrown into leadership and often for the wrong reason. Right? I mean, it's, they're promoted because they were great contributors, which that's awesome. But the natural career path development is great. Contributor, become a supervisor, I. That's like being a great catcher and being promoted to shortstop. It doesn't [00:29:00] really make sense. Right? Different skill sets on top of that, especially in I think it's declined really in the last 15 years or so, what organizations invest in leadership development is minuscule. So we're putting people in. Who may or may not have the skillset, they may have the desire, but not the skillset. And then we're not giving them the tools and the training to be effective at it. So now there's problems on both sides, right? There's the, I'm not doing what they need, but also I'm not even capable of it. Sure, sure. People should take it upon themselves to get the training and have the self initiative and all of those things. And I agree to an extent. Man, life is wild. People have other responsibilities. People have kids and spouses and finances to take care of and you know, elder care now with parents [00:30:00] and all this other stuff, that's a big ask, right? So I think there's a, it's this ain't grits where you just add water and stir, right? This thing is a lot more complicated than that, but it really does come down to. Here's one thing I believe. I don't think it's universal, but I believe this, most people want to do a good job at work. I do believe that. I believe when people interview for a job, they have the best intentions of doing well. What happens often is. Something happens at work, something happens with their relationship with their boss, something happens with their pay, and all of a sudden that desire is quenched. Okay? And so then it becomes we, it is not that we didn't hire the right person, because I agree with your assessment. I don't know if it's 80 20, but I agree with your assessment. We hire the right people all the time. We just put 'em in a culture that's [00:31:00] infectious and so they get damaged. Ross Romano: Yeah. I mean I, I think in sustaining that motivation to want to do well, right? Again, is it serving me? Is it rewarded in whatever that is, and people's aspirations and ambitions around. How they want to do well and why, and what that looks like are different, right? Like, but we want people to want to do well in the role that they're in because it leads to the outcomes that they want. For some people, that job security, for some people that is getting other cross-functional opportunities. For some people that's getting a promotion or it looks different for everybody but. They need to feel like if I am doing well, that is being rewarded with positive outcome. And I need to know as the leader, the supervisor, the manager, what are their ambitions? What are they trying to work toward, and how am I [00:32:00] showing them? That they're making progress toward that. And how am I reinforcing that they are doing a good job, right? How do they know that they are I wanna do well in my job, but if nobody ever tells me whether or not I am, how do I know if I'm doing well? If there's something I need to correct? Right. Am I getting any guidance on that or do I feel like, well, I feel like I'm doing a great job here, but it seems to be unnoticed so. I'm not sure. So maybe that leads to a little backsliding or a little bit of, well maybe I don't need to give 110%, you know, maybe I don't need to give my absolute best. 'cause it doesn't really seem to make a difference. Nobody's paying that much attention. And when that's happening everywhere across your organization, that everybody is throttling back 10, 15, 20%, all of a sudden you have an entire organization that isn't operating at its. Capabilities. And that could be a function of nobody was really communicating how anybody was doing or what was the next [00:33:00] step, or look, where am I in the trajectory of either the role I want to move into or a raise at the end of the year, or do, does my boss have confidence in me or not? Are these things being shown? Tony Chatman: No. Absolutely. You know. A zillion things just ran through my brain all at one time. Probably too many at one time. Right. So what's interesting, first of all, is everything you just said or talked about goes back to this idea of relationships, which is why the relationship aspect of leadership is so important. Is it the most important thing? I don't know. I think that without the relationship part of it, leadership falls apart quickly. Okay. It's interesting because Gallup every year does the engagement survey, right? The employee engagement and the workplace, all that stuff. And I think [00:34:00] last year they determined that 34, 30 5% of workers in the US are fully engaged. That's a third. You know, I mean, that's a third. So we talk about throttling back, it's a third. And these are things that are self-reported. It's not, my boss says I'm fully engaged, not it's, I'm saying whether or not I'm fully engaged. So people are admitting based on criteria. If you look at the questionnaire, there's a bunch of stuff asked about how much they care about this, this, that, that they're saying, I am not fully engaged. So that's really where the answer is. We know from, for example, OSI Tanner, who are the experts in the employee experience and reward rewards and recognition that one of the top drivers for employee engagement is recognition. When employees go above and beyond the call of duty, somewhere around, somewhere in the 70% range can remember if it's 72, 75, somewhere in that [00:35:00] space. Of employees who receive recognition when they go above and beyond the call of duty are fully engaged in the seventies versus the current state of in the thirties. So that tells us when we reward people for doing a great job, not for mediocrity, but for doing a great job. Then the ev that in and of itself will give us a competitive advantage over everyone else around us, right? We would be able to double everyone else's engagement, which means we'd be able to double their output, double their performance, double their quality, double their customer service the retention would be higher. All of those things. From something as simple as this human aspect of the workplace that's often neglected. So that's really, as we're having this discussion, a reminder that we really are leading human beings, very illogical, very emotional. We have to tap into those emotions to be able to get the best out of them [00:36:00] so that we can. I don't know of a situation where if an employee is getting what's best for them, that that's not also in the best interest of the company. Right. It is. There is this relationship and if we understand that, that's why this whole relationship thing to me is so important. It's not, I mean. Dude, now I got high expectations of my team. They'll tell you like, I have super high expectations of my team. So it's not like we sit around and sing Kumbaya all the time. We have but we also, it's like, look, I know you're not perfect. There's gonna be mistakes, but I expect you to take responsibility for those mistakes. I model it, I expect it, I reward it, and we move it. It's really, those are the things that are important and people not only. Wanna be valued. They want to be part of a winning team. They wanna be part of excellence. They want to feel like they're, nobody wants to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we're, I'm doing [00:37:00] great in a mediocre company. That's not super appealing. You know what I mean? So all of this plays together, but it really does come back down to this relational idea of, I am leading people if I build this connection. So that I understand what motivates them, what their needs are, what their obstacles are, what rewards they desire. It takes time, it takes effort, it takes work, but the rewards are massive and it's absolutely worth that journey of doing these things, of journey of discovery. Ross Romano: Yeah. What are a couple of like the most damaging things a leader can do? Let's say you're you are doing a lot of the right things and building relationship right, and kind of, effective in a lot of ways. But are there a couple of those actions that can really be chip away at that foundation, I guess, of effective leadership? Tony Chatman: Well, yeah, there's [00:38:00] bunches of stuff, you know? Yeah. So some of the basic stuff, disrespecting someone, betraying their trust, I. Stealing credit for their work. For some it's micromanagement. Just trying to think, just right off the top of my head, those are some that come off. I think though the disrespect for a lot of people disrespect and a betrayal of trust, those are so big. People just, they underestimate how important that part is. So the problem with those, some of these things is they're less intentional, they're more just. Happen. And it's the intent it's being intentional. It's being intentional and saying, you know what, I'm not going to let that happen. I'm not gonna have a situation where I'm not listening. I'm not gonna have a situation where I'm failing to give recognition. I'm not gonna have a situation where I'm constantly playing favorites. So one person's in the doghouse and another person can do no wrong th those types of [00:39:00] things. But you know, you start off with losing your temper, betraying trust, disrespecting people taking credit for their work. Any type of lying or dishonesty, those things right off the bat they're, they do so much damage. Sometimes it's hard to overcome. Ross Romano: Are there any things that stand out as the biggest things you've learned in writing this book? And learned about leadership or how to communicate about leadership and I feel like I. Oftentimes I've learned this in different instances when there's certain things that you learn by doing maybe learn through experience. Maybe there's things that you have a natural aptitude for and others recognize that in you that when it comes time to. Explain it. You have to go through like almost a relearning process of what are the words for this, or how am I speaking the same language to the person I'm talking [00:40:00] to, or you know. I I didn't know there was a common vocabulary for this thing because I just kinda learned it by being in situations where I had to do it. But I'm wondering if there's things that stand out to you where you came to the book, I'm sure based on your own experience in leadership and things that you had done over the course of your career, but then when you had to sit down and really think about, okay, how do I explain this to somebody else? Tony Chatman: So from it, it's almost. It's a different journey for me on this one. So I started off teaching and training about leadership, and I just kept seeing the same patterns over and over again. So a lot of my learning was happening when I was doing the actual training and interacting with leaders at different levels and realizing that first line supervisor. Has a lot of the same flaws as the person who's in the C-suite. I mean, I sit on boards and the issues with people on the board are the [00:41:00] same issues that you see with new managers. I mean, it's, they just seem to just be promoted right through that in spite of it. So, I pretty much knew what I wanted to say. It was more putting it in the right format and order, knowing when to stop. I clearly have a bias towards dealing with this personality stuff because I spend so much time in the book on it. Right. I mean, there's just no way around it. That's obvious because to me that's, you know what? That's it. I've been working with the personality stuff since 97. Okay. Wrote the book some 20 years later than that I had used. So many different psychometric tests, been certified in them, written them, things of that nature. I could explain them in conversation, I could explain them in training, but really breaking down the nuances on paper was eye-opening for me. Writing all the [00:42:00] nuances of putting together the personality test. 'cause most of the personality tests I had done in person, right? I mean, they're handwritten, they're whatever, whatever. When we started building this out and all of the different scenarios and what does this combination mean? I mean, I knew it in my head, but getting it on paper was just it. It was a totally different animal. And I would say that's changed my. Understanding of people in ways, probably more than any other part of writing the book was the personality part. Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, and I think that's a great illustration and as we're kind of getting that's the end of our conversation here. I sort of wanted to wrap on, you know how leaders who are listening, regardless of their. Their role or how long they've been in it. Right. People who are moving. We talked earlier about when people get promoted into a position of leadership because of their effectiveness as a contributor in another role that, that it's like, I think it's important to be able to [00:43:00] be and self-aware about, okay, why did I get put in this role and. Like, but and have a humility. I mean, that, that's important I think for all leaders and to establish like trust and influence, like, humility to want to learn and to serve and but not have it. Come at the expense of confidence, like not creating an imposter or syndrome effect. But saying like, I guess, one way to say it would be like I. I earned it, but now I have to learn it, right? Like I earned my way into this position. I'm here for a reason. I did good things to get here, but now I'm in a different role than I was in before. So I need to learn how to be effective in this role, and it's how do I apply what I know and know how to do. To make it work for me here, what are some skills that I don't have yet that I need to learn? [00:44:00] But I I think that's like a process that a lot of people would have to go through and understanding, like in the similarly to writing the book and all, it's like, okay I know that I know this stuff. I have the confidence that I'm the right person to do this, but. There's still some things I need to learn about how do I make it work in this setting and have the influence I wanna have in this format. And commit to doing that instead of, say, coming up against a chapter that's hard to write and saying, eh, actually, you know what? I'm gonna skip this one. This one's hard. Or, you know what, maybe I just won't even finish the book because maybe I don't know anything. Maybe I don't know what I thought I knew, but it's kind of, it's both, right? It's that you. You have to know that you're the right person to be successful there, but also know that it's a continuous process of learning how to be effective where you are. Tony Chatman: Yeah, the earning and learning, I like that, that phrasing I trained in martial arts and when I got my second degree black belt, I was actually [00:45:00] in Japan, and I remember feeling like I did not deserve it. Like, I mean, I tested and got that just kind of wasn't, I was like, I'm not there yet, so no, no, no, no, no. You're there. But now you have to earn it. Like that's how we view it now. You have to validate this promotion that you've been given. I think that's similar to what you're saying. At least that's how I'm absorbing what you're saying. I do think it's an interesting exercise for people when they get promoted. To ask why them? Because often we don't know. We assume, but okay, so why, what was it about me so that I have an idea of what I should be focusing on in the process. And yeah there, there is, there's always the, unfortunately, based on just the hierarchy of the workplace, the fear that people will become. Overly confident, control, freaks, abusive, all that stuff. And that's there also. But I do [00:46:00] think a clear understanding of why a person has been promoted even helps them in the process to say, okay I thought it was because of these three things and it's truthfully, it's 'cause of this. Okay, cool. Now I know what my what my contribution, where it starts. So yeah, Ross Romano: Awesome. So, Tony, we're gonna put the links below to your website. And you know, all the places where people can find you across the web, but is there anything in particular you wanna point out? Anything our listeners should check out? Tony Chatman: we are really getting active on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn is a great place to connect with me and you'll see me getting really, really active on YouTube over the next few months. So. Those are the things I would also consider and I will we're working on some stuff right now that I think may be an interesting conversation for the two of us to have in the future, that it's gonna lead to a new book, probably around the end of this year. So that's what I'm, I think, is [00:47:00] on the horizon. Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, that'll be here before we know it. So, we'll have to keep in touch on that. And listeners check all that out. We'll put the link below to Tony's website. You could find, the book on Amazon and you know, wherever else you get your books, we'll put those links below social media, all those different places. So check all of that out. The book again is called The Force Multiplier, how to Lead Teams Where Everyone Wins. So hope you all enjoyed our conversation and you can go and learn more by reading the book. Please also do subscribe to the Authority for more Author interviews coming your way every week. Or head over to B Podcast Network. Learn about all of our shows. If you like this one, there is definitely a few others you'll enjoy as well. Tony, thanks again for being here. Tony Chatman: Thanks Ross. It was a great conversation. Appreciate it.