Latest / In The Business of Humans / Code Switching at Work: Authenticity, Leadership & Belonging

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Code Switching at Work: Authenticity, Leadership & Belonging · In The Business of Humans

• CX Joe: What do you get when you take a former manager plus report combo, who are now real life friends, one a management coach and sudden viral internet star who shoots from the hip, and the other a CX exec turned advisor who overthinks everything? This podcast. Welcome to the business of humans. I'm Joe, founder of CX Joe Advisory and the Overthinker. My partner in crime is Linda. She's the founder of Leveled Up Leadership and the Internet Star. Join us as we talk about business, relationships, humanity. Success and also failure, through the lens of friendship, heaps of radical transparency and honesty, and zero BS. Let's get started with today's episode. Lynda Harvey: Hi Joe. CX Joe: Hello Linda. How are you feeling today? Lynda Harvey: I'm well. How are you? Good. CX Joe: Doing very well. excited for today's podcast and some amazing guests we have on and a really important topic and sort of loosely related to the pod as I think we do in our our other updates and thoughts. But today's pod and the week I've had was causing me to reflect on sort of the richness and diversity of this moment in career that each day represents for me. You know, to have this just coming up on a Friday is really special. Lynda Harvey: Yes. Yeah. CX Joe: And as I look back on the last week or two, it's really fun in this advisor consultant moment of life to kind of hop around between different industries and, you know, just like folks of all walks. And I've even been doing a little work, I can't remember if I mentioned this in the pod, but with a company that has an international presence and are is first kind of expanding out into the US. And so really interesting dynamics come up because I'm consulting them partially on their go-to-market strategy. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: and then within that, just even as we're working together and finding our rhythms, you know, these interesting moments come up of like, we don't communicate our work that way in Germany or Prague, like interesting. And I'm like, interesting. We overshare an emotion and I'm intense and extra, like, yeah, but it goes over pretty well here. And they're like, Whoa, odd. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. That is interesting. Yeah, yeah. I remember working with, so I launched a call center in Ireland. and it was my first, it was my first time launching a call center out of the country. So I had launched call centers within the United States and Canada, but this was the first time I'd launched something in it for Europe, right? And I remember very much The disconnect of CSAT. So CSAT stands for customer satisfaction. And you know, in the United States, it's like if you're not hitting 90% CSAT, like you're failing as a business, right? And our our European operations were coming in at 70. And they were tickled with that. They were just delighted. They're like, that's good. And I'm like, you're 23% lower than that. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: in the United States and I don't know how to talk about that. And and understanding the nuances and I can't remember. I was I was talking to somebody from Austria who was visiting here in the United States and she went into the local our our the best local grocer, right? Like you guys have Wegmans in New York and everybody loves Wegmans. I mean I also enjoy Wegmans in New York. But in Utah we have CX Joe: That's pretty great. Lynda Harvey: A grocery store called Harman's. And that's like, that's the Wegmans of Utah. Okay. So for the people who are around the world who know Wegmans. But she went into Harman's and they have like, they do all this local artisan bread and it's delicious and all of the things. And she I think she was going to get a loaf of bread or something. And the bakery person's like, hey, how's it going? How can I help you? What would you like? What kind of bread would you like? Would you like a sample? And she was like, What is wrong with you? Like what the fuck? She was so overwhelmed with this experience. And and I I finally found a way to like sum it up for in order to tell the executive team and in order to kind of explain the difference between the cultures and why the CSATs are so different and why the customer, when they're leaving reviews, because you know, customers even leave a review if they're delighted or CX Joe: Like attacked her as people do here. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: Horrified, you get a few in the middle, right? and so, but in Europe they don't. They're just like, if it was a good experience, yes, it was a good experience. Can I move on? Right. And so trying to explain that. But I was, I said, okay, so in the United States, when somebody closes a call, they're like, have the most amazing, incredible, outstanding, lovely day, and congratulations on the marriage and the baby and the right. And they have to remember every little, yeah. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, so I come back to check on the baby in a month and Yeah. Yes. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, like and I'll send you a card and you're gonna get a surprise and delight and it's gonna be amazing. Right? That's how they close the call. In Europe they're like, Have a nice day. CX Joe: Yeah. I I love the all of this track so much. I think it's that stereotype of Americans want everything to be awesome unless it's terrible. And that's why famously and or at least famously in our industry, we know that like Linda said, most people don't leave a five star review if they're just over the top like that person made my whole week or a one star review is terrible. And I could very much see in other parts of the world it's like, Yeah, it was all right. So that even if you do respond, you're like, Three stars, four stars and Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. CX Joe: No knock needed, right? And in the US it's like, my God, what what what what went wrong? But there it's probably like, no, solid. Like thumbs up, cool. Three star, four star. hilarious. What's on what's in your mind today, Linda? Lynda Harvey: Should we do well? Well, you know, I'm actually so I'm I'm gonna be really honest. I have been a little overwhelmed prepping for this particular episode of the pod. And overwhelmed, it's probably been an overwhelming sensation that's been building for multiple years, right? Because the topic that we're going to discuss today is, I believe, a very big topic and a very relevant topic. And I don't think sometimes I think some of the topics we discuss, I know definitely on my social media. CX Joe: Interesting. Lynda Harvey: A lot of the topics I discuss tend to be very US centric, right? They tend to be very US centric. But I I believe that this is like the topic that spans the globe. Like I really believe that this is the topic that spans the globe because and the topic, I guess I should probably say, I mean, it's in the title, I think, but we're gonna talk about code switching today. And you know, it's CX Joe: I was gonna say, I don't know if we mentioned yeah. Lynda Harvey: It it it it it's a heavier topic, I think, for us to talk about. It's not as flippant as some of our even when we talk about horrible bosses or toxic workplaces, I think we can still like really kind of take the the comedy of those situations. and and I think that the root of code switching there I don't believe that there's a lot of comedy there, right? I think that we can obviously CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: Comedy can be applied anywhere because if we have n nothing left, we can always laugh, right? But it's it's a heavier topic for us to discuss. And I actually think season two is going to be the season of some heavier topics. But I think that that's the point. Right? Would you agree that the point is that we we're we're leaving no topic taboo? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I think I think it's the point, you know, hopefully in a couple of ways of one approaching topics that are taboo and and more difficult and wanting to bring them to the surface or kind of confront you know, kind of di confront discomfort in what's hopefully a positive and constructive way. I remember when you brought this topic to me, one of my first responses, because I always just give the first responses to Linda and then we kind of work through it, and I said, well. You know, we're kind of too average enough with no no offense meant to you, Linda. You're more extraordinary than I am in every possible way. But like we're too we're we're kind of like too average looking, average sounding white folks. Like, are we the right ones to lead this discussion? I think again, that's a good example of some, you know, discomfort or kind of nuance or taboo that like was really helpful to lean into and we talked about it more and just you know, we want to bring to the forefront Lynda Harvey: I'm so average, it's fine. CX Joe: to the listeners, you know, meaningful conversation or kind of lead into some of that discomfort. And of course, I think it was part of part of working through that initial response was also understanding we're gonna have a couple of just blowout incredible guests today who could bring other perspectives and kind of certainly round out and and add on to our perspectives. But no, I totally agree with you. And I think it's notable on a sort of slightly joking, mostly serious note is that Linda, you take a lot of pride actually in kind of shooting from the hip. And again, I d I actually don't mean this as a knock or too much of a joke, but you take pride in that you're an incredible improviser. You take pride in like you don't have to over prepare for everything. But I think this the fact that you were preparing and were kinda, you know, like sweating today's episode is is actually nice and sort of a reflection of you care. Like you care about the topic and creating the space and and the conversation being meaningful. So I think it's great. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. And I I I do, I do care about this topic. And again, because I think so often there are things that we just we can't experience. Right. Like we just I you know I tell my husband all the time my husband is like the mo he's so empathetic and he's such a great partner and like a great spouse and and dad to our children and girl dad to my daughter and Those things, but there are things that I'm like, you're never gonna understand what it feels like as a woman. Like you can empathize with me as much as you want, but you're never gonna understand what that work experience was like for me, or you're never going to understand if I leave a building late at night, or even when it's dark and I'm by myself, the concern, the level of concern that I have where you would just like like just not pay attention because that's not your reality. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And I believe that this is exactly the conversation we should be having when we're talking about code switching. Because I sure we've well, you know, when I have used the the term code switching flippantly before, I'm like, yeah, you just code switch. And I actually remember the first time I heard the term code switching, I my children matriculated through a bilingual program in school learning Spanish. And the majority of the students they went to school with. were Hispanic, right? And so the teacher had to ta was telling us a little bit about how these kids had to code switch. And you know, it didn't really sink in to my brain what the impact of that. And really when I started hearing the conversation about code switching and really diving into how much harm it can cause the individual was during the Black Lives Matter movement. Right. And one of the the best series that I watched on YouTube to kind of educate myself, it was Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. And there was an entire they were talking at some point in time about code switching. And it was just really, really interesting to me. And not something I'd ever thought of because in my privilege, because I do sit in privilege, it's not something I had ever really sat with. And and I think that I'm hoping that today's episode reaches out to individuals that are in my seat as well that are like, it's not not something I ever had to think about. And and I hope that there's actually a couple other episodes we have planned for this season where we're doing that exact thing. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I think that's amazing. And I'll I'll I'll say this and then maybe we should bring our our incredible guests on. But you know, my kind of quick retort or my version of events is I think on one hand, I've always tried to bring an awareness of just some of the really glaring manners in which, you know, I benefit from privilege and positive bias. again, being just kind of an average looking white dude. I mean that that says it all and and goes a long way, unfortunately. Yeah. In terms of privilege and and positive bias and all of that. So I've always tried to be mindful of that and acknowledge that and probably could have done even better, but you know, tried to do that. I think for me, something that was missing in the perspective from the first bunch of my career is that it's not only those dynamics, but take in my case, for example, I was raised by two parents. One was a journalist, one was a writer and did other. I mean, they're both incredible. I could talk about them for hours. But the point is I also was sort of average or acceptable sounding. And this idea, and we'll get into this, you know, during the meat of the episode, but especially coming up in a customer service or CX background, there's this idea of be of being quote unquote chameleon like and kind of you know suiting your manner of talking to the customer or the client or whoever's on the phone. And I guess first of all, I was naive to thinking about that in a richer manner and not just as like a positive effect of business technique, but like what is actually happening there, and two that that was coming much easier to me naturally. than it might for others and not pausing to reflect on hmm, like how did that sort of impact the acceleration of my career versus others and my day to day work experience and so forth. But that's I'll cut myself off there because I'm quite eager to bring our our panel on if that sounds good to you. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, yeah. So we've got two amazing guests with us. We've got both both amazing individuals. We've got Clarence and we've got Wendy. Do you want to go ahead and introduce Dr. Wendy? CX Joe: Yes, I believe I have the the the first honor and you'll take the next one. so one of our guests today, and and by the way, Dr. Wendy, I was already learning a lot from you even as the episode approached, including when I saw your bio come in, because as folks get more advanced and accomplished in their career, and I I do this sometimes, you know, the bio starts to get longer and longer. And I read yours and thought, wow, that's really talk about leading with humility and probably being a little understated, but Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: Here's our bio for our audience. Dr. Wendy Johnson is a leadership and workforce consultant focused on leadership development, organizational effectiveness, and modern workforce strategy. With more than 20 years of executive leadership experience, she brings a practitioner, scholar, perspective shaped by her work as a senior academic leader, educator, mentor, and author. Her work centers on leadership identity, self-reflection, ethical leadership, and helping professionals navigate the workplace with clarity, confidence, and courage. She is also the author of Managing from Afar, How to Navigate in a Remote Environment and Missing in Action, Black Woman in the Boardroom. Thank you so much, Dr. Winnie, for being with us today. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Thank you for the invite. I appreciate it. I love Linda, by the way, I have to say that. CX Joe: We all too. We would do anything for Linda. Lynda Harvey: We're so excited to have you here. I also want to introduce my friend and also fellow podcaster, Clarence Bangalos. And I totally botched his last name. He is going to correct me on this in a minute after I do a quick intro of my friend Clarence. So Clarence is a former chief marketing officer, turned alignment coach and consultant who has spent nearly two decades developing people as a teacher, mentor. And leader. He's coached thousands of individuals from entry level to C suite across organizations, classrooms, and communities. Today he helps people stop paying the price of misalignment and helps professionals find clarity on the purpose that should be driving their career moves. Like I said, he's also a fellow podcaster and Clarence, I'm I'm gonna like also pull back the curtain a little bit, entrepreneur. Developing the coolest thing in the market. I think like we want to talk about disruptor. Clarence is a disruptor because he and his business partner Katie are doing incredible things that to help change the landscape of how people are hired, jobs people apply for, how people can step into alignment. from the moment that they start with a company. So Clarence, you didn't put that in your bio, but when I w I like again, I shoot from the hip and that's where we're at. Clarence Bongalos: thank you. Yeah. No, thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Thank guys for the opportunity to talk about this. and you are I Dr. Wendy, I agree, I love Linda. I'm definitely starting to love Joe, so thank you for having me here. I'm excited to be here. Wendy Johnson, PhD: I do. CX Joe: Thanks for including me in that, Clarence. Don't worry. I'm I'm I'm used to just being along for the ride. You know, it's it's it's a comfortable place for me, but that's very kind of you. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Clarence Bongalos: Of course. Course. Lynda Harvey: Well, we're so excited to have the two of you here today. And again, you know, Joe and I really touched on this earlier in the conversation. And talking about the fact that, you know, I code switching is something. And and I I do think again, as as a person as a woman in business, like there is a like this much, like like a teaspoon worth, right? But I don't think that it has the same kind of impact that it does on others, right? So first and foremost, for the people who've maybe never heard of code switching or maybe they have heard the term, but they really haven't put their claws into it, can you help the people understand what is code switching? Clarence Bongalos: Doctor Wendy, I'll defer to you first. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Thank you. You know, code switching is interesting because I live code switching almost every day throughout my career. So I think a lot of times people code switch and don't even realize it. So cold switching is how you communicate, how you present yourself, how you dress, how you articulate, your hair, their body language. There's so many different aspects of cold switching that I think People do it subconsciously don't even realize what they're doing. So I'll stop there because I'll keep talking. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yep. Ha ha ha. Clarence Bongalos: Yeah, I mean, I think to your point, Dr. Wendy, like it it really has ch grown and evolved to be so much more than what it originally was. And it originated in the linguistics world, where it really was about language. And ever since that over the decades, it really evolved into more of self-presentation and identity presentation. And I think that that's where a lot of us don't realize that we're code switching on a day to day and truly like going through this process of pre preparing for this episode. was a little bit cathartic for me because it made me reflect on all the code switching that I've done over the years and what that has the effects that that has had on me. but yeah to to Dr. Wendy's point, it's not just about the language that you use. It truly is about how you present your identity. It's about credibility and how you have to kind of adjust yourself to make yourself more credible. it's so much more nuanced than just the language piece of it. And a common misconception is that it's only about race or ethnicity and it truly isn't. And I think I'm I'm really excited to get into a lot of that nuance today. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think discussing the origins where it comes from linguistics, right? And I think that it did sit primarily in with people of color, right? Because there is so much I mean, how often do you get, you're so articulate, right? Or do you hear these microaggressions of of of those types of things, right? So that's ultimately where it was born. And I agree with you, Clarence, where it really has expanded beyond that. But let's talk about like Well well, first of all, I mean let's start with a controversial. Do we believe that code switching is ever healthy? Wendy Johnson, PhD: I think it can be. I I I think it I think it can be if one doesn't think that it's required as survival, is what is the conversations that I've had. And this has come up multiple times with me because actually my dissertation revolves around a lot of it being that the topic was the perceived image of African American women in the in corporate America. So it was heavy code switching. That's when Linda sent me the message. I said, my gosh, absolutely I want. Lynda Harvey: Don't I'll jump in. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Participate in this conversation. So I think it can be, it's just that people cannot lose their identity when as they're code switching, if you will. It cannot be considered an aspect of survival, is is what I'll say. So, you know, that that that question comes up all the time. I don't think it's unhealthy. I just don't think you can you should you have to be very cognizant and not lose yourself because that can happen as well. Clarence Bongalos: Yeah, and I'll echo that. I mean, I think it really is about again, not not having it be a survival method. and I think the more important piece that Dr. Wendy said is that you have to be cognizant of it. If you're aware of it and you and you have the enough of the self awareness to say to be aware that you are actively code switching and be able to kind of mitigate the effects of that, then I think it can be healthy. And there is a s a strategic aspect to it as well of for people like myself who I had to code switch to get to where I wanted to be. And as I was going through that process, I was constantly thinking about what I was doing, what that might be of what what the effects of that might be, and asking myself questions. So constantly reflecting, though I will say that was not always a hundred percent. But I think if you have enough of the awareness, it can be healthy. And if you're actively choosing to code switch, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Clarence Bongalos: Because you're trying to achieve something, I think in that regard, it can be healthy. And I will pose a question because as I was thinking about this, Linda, you know this about me. I take things into a million different directions. But when and this is what I was saying earlier about it's not just about race or ethnicity. Cause when you think about, you know, Joe, you were talking in your intro about your experience in CX and Lynda Harvey: Take it. Go. Yes. Clarence Bongalos: having to do a little bit of code switching and it's the same in marketing where we have to speak to the audience and learn how to shift our messaging and shift the way that we speak, our tone, the words that we choose. And it's the same thing in leadership, right? All four of us here work in leadership. And by nature, is leadership not code switching embedded. And so I think in that regard it can be healthy where yes, you do have to adjust your tone. You have to adjust the way that you speak. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Clarence Bongalos: to speak to the person. and I think in that sense it can be healthy. CX Joe: Right. I had, you know, experiences I was thinking about earlier in my career and getting started in customer service that, you know, in retrospect are just, you know, here's the thing. And like it's open to feedback from the panel whether we should laugh about these experiences or not at all. Right. But one of the first jobs I ever had, I've definitely never talked about on the pod, but I was actually doing fundraising. it was in Manhattan and I just happened into the job from like a high school friend and show up to this call center environment. we were raising money for UJF, which is a charity in New York and other places, have Jewish Federation, whatever. But the point is what I observed in that call center, I mean, people were dialing kind of for dollars, and your income as a rep or as a fundraiser was attached to your success, dialing for money. And so suffice to say that I would meet, you know, a colleague to my left or right, we'd exchange our actual names, you know, we'd shake hands, or give a little pound or fist bump or whatever, a little banter, the shift would start. And on you know, comes their fundraising voice and substituting in a fake name quite often, right? and I'm not gonna, you know, sort try to impersonate, I'll just not necessary, it might be awkward or, you know, but fake name, fake accent, dialing for dollars. My career goes on and, you know, start out and now I'm on the phone. And my first job ever, we'd have customers call in. My job was to answer questions for them. It was like local leisure stuff, pretty light industry, and try to sell them tickets. And one call might be for somebody in Charleston, South Carolina who wants to go on a carriage tour. And the next call is from a customer looking for a hip hop tour in New York, which was one of my personal favorites. And I'm thinking back, you know, to the different me that I brought on one call versus another. And honestly, that was part of the customer service training again was to be chameleon-like. Or then you take it to a client level and the operators of these tours. And we were doing the same thing in my company. You know, one person gets a y'all and one person gets something different. And you know it's cringy to look back on But I was thinking about, you know, my view on like whether this is okay or not. And I think both of our guests brought up a really interesting point of again, you're operating from a position of privilege, I think, when it's voluntary. And when you don't feel like your success in your workplace or your career arc is really determined on whether you have to code switch. For me, it was almost fun, right? I was like, I could sell some more tickets and come up in my career even faster. But if I was less effective at code switching, I probably, you know, would have still done okay or been embraced in my internal. kind of workplace environment, which is another distinction and I'll kind of land my plane here, but that I'm curious about, you know, is maybe it's more, I don't know, okay or acceptable when it's customer and client facing and you're doing in a spirit of customer service and wanting someone else to feel comfortable, versus when I now think about the need to code switch in an internal workplace and where our you know career trajectories and kind of livelihoods are attached to it, it feels to me as less okay ever. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: but this is where I throw it back to the group. Lynda Harvey: Right. I do want to know what your fake name was though. I mean, before we can move on to the like really important question where we're going to like emotionally spend some time, I do need to understand what your fake name was. Clarence Bongalos: Yeah. CX Joe: Yeah. Well, I'll give you a little bit more if you're curious. And and I think it's honestly it relates to the larger point here, which is that I didn't have to do too much. I didn't feel a pressure to change too much about myself. So I was Joe or maybe Joseph, whereas somebody to my right, whatever this gentleman's real name was, he would literally call as Mordechai, let's say for example, because he thought that would be more endearing for the person that he was dialing and more likely that he would, you know, receive those dollars if he changed his name. So as per the norm in my life experience, I I didn't really have to change too much and was kind of just whistling and going through my life experience. But I'm reflecting now on these moments that at the time seemed humorous and now in retrospect I'm going like, Hmm, it's kinda heavy. I wonder if that person kinda had to carry that with him after that experience. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean, that's that's really interesting. And I think such a such a good again when we sit in these positions and we're having these conversations and we're helping people understand the concept and it what a great way I think to look at it and reflect and be like, ooh, well, that's not something I ever considered. But now that I have, you know, you're changed and you can think about that going forward and and how we apply that at work and help the people who are listening. Dr. Wendy, Clarence, what are you what's your take on that? Anecdote. Or just addition other ways. Wendy Johnson, PhD: For me, from a leadership perspective, I think code switching, I've I've always tried to make a concerted effort to dispel a lot of the social media advertising kind of stereotypes, if you will. is the term is exactly what it is. Is this the the advertising stereotypes that exist because you know it's Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Clarence mentioned it, you know, when you're code switching, a lot of times, you know, you're you're in your head. And this is where this is for me where I was at. I'm going into this meeting. And you know, a lot of times when you're code switching, you're asking yourself various questions as you enter the room and you're at the table. You know, you've got to be very cognizant of what you say. And and then it's all just the whole the process of Cold switching is what you go through when you enter these rooms when others aren't in the room and you're in the room. I mean, it's just this huge dynamic of cold switching that I have gone through my entire career. So it is that's why from a healthy perspective, you just have to be very aware and not and not let it overcome you because it can. Especially if you are end up in many instances, the only one at the table. So it can be a lot of pressure. So, you know, we talk about health, but it is also a lot of pressure as well. So it's it's a process, is what I'll say. And you have to really be intentional when you enter these rooms. I just had a conversation a couple of weeks ago about entering a room and being the only one and code. I mean, it's it's a lot. It can it can really be a lot and a lot of pressure. And I think we're having this conversation and maybe This conversation may seem as to some as if it's a light conversation, but it's a really heavy topic. It it really is. It really is. And I think the direction that we're going with this conversation is really going to be very informative for a lot of individuals and it's going to also position them to really do a lot of self-assessing. That's why I was so excited about it because I I'm my goal today is to provide the listeners the information that's needed for them not to so that they don't overthink and stress and obtain a lot of the anxiety that goes along the coastal. CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: I did I did want to ask you, and I like probably any of these questions are impossibly general and thinking about your whole careers and life's experience, but I'll still push forth, you know. I'm curious as your career has gone on and you've walked into so many of those rooms, do you think of it as your career has gone on? Is it is it more about, you know, meeting the room where it is and conforming to probably this very narrow specific view that is living in that room of how everyone should Talk and act and be, or as your career has gone on, has it been more about actively trying to shift that narrative and and and that narrow expectation? Wendy Johnson, PhD: Trying to shift the narrative, honestly, is is where my focus has my focus has been. Honestly, the more I think about it and we're talking it through, I think that's where I think that's where my focus has been because I've had staff even to this day, they come to me consistently asking, How did you get where you're at? You were invited to that meeting. CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wendy Johnson, PhD: I saw you go to lunch with so-and-so. And it's just really interesting how some of the small things that you do organically, it really has an impact on others because people are always watching. They're always watching, they're always listening. They are, and a lot of times we don't think about it. So I I've I've tried to be very cognizant of that, as well as ensuring that I don't change myself because. of being invited and being in those rooms and at those tables, if you will. CX Joe: Mm hmm. Yep, it occurs to me the shifting the narrative, I'm sure, is a much harder and and I would say more courageous place to be. Yeah. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Mm-hmm. It is. And you know, I I really have made it I've been very intentional with that because I've gone into several rooms where a lot of inappropriate comments were made. And, you know, as you as both of you have mentioned, the privilege that that you you sit in and so many others sit in, I think that they are they lose sight of the comments that are made and how inappropriate they are. And when they and when that happens, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Emotional intelligence is also another heavy piece of code switching as well. And I've had to really learn to navigate that as well. And in many instances, I have not responded right away. However, I made a mental note of that. I'd make a mental note of it and either address it along the way because it will come back up again. And my CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Wendy Johnson, PhD: goal or strategy has always been to address it appropriately so again I don't fall into the stereotype. So it's just so many moving parts to it it it really is. The more I think about the rooms and the meetings that I've been invited in and how I needed to respond or not respond to. So I'll pause there. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Clarence Bongalos: Mm. I love that. Lynda Harvey: Clarence, I lots of nods. I was like I could see the wheels spinning for you, Clarence. Clarence Bongalos: Yeah, I mean it going into this conversation really I have to pause a lot and and think. because I think for me, code switching has been so embedded into who I am. I mentioned at the beginning of the show before we started, I think I mentioned it to Joe, I was born in the Philippines. And so I and I spent the first 10 years of my life there. And and then I came to the US back in ninety-eight. And I think the experience of Going from a third world country to a first world country at such a formative age forced me to have to code switch, to have to assimilate to the culture and really become this new identity at such a young age. And I think that very early on, I had to learn how to code switch. And obviously I didn't know I didn't name it that at the time. And truly, I didn't name it that until this past year when I got out of corporate world and really had time to slow down and reflect on. all the things that I had to do, all the things that I had to unlearn, going from that environment to self-employment and and having the freedom to function the way that I want to function. And so I had to pause a lot because I really didn't even name it code switching for really the entirety of my life. And so understanding code switching and what it truly means has been a process for myself. And so I want to make sure that I pause and and really think about how I'm responding to these things. But to Dr. Wendy's point, it is like the the very strategic nature of it, I think is one of the things that people don't really recognize becomes so embedded in us because for the longest time I I prided myself on being a strategic person. It was one of the things that I always bragged about of like before I speak, I think about 10, 20 different possibilities that could come from what I'm about to say. And so I have to adjust what I'm gonna say based on how I envision those things. playing out. And I always just understood it as that I'm naturally strategic. But in doing the work of understanding things like code switching, I realized that it's rooted in that. It's rooted in throughout my life from from 10 years old to now, I've had to learn to be aware, be cognizant of what's going to happen if I say this. How is this going to be perceived? What is this going to say about me? And so as an adult, understanding that That strategic skill that I have comes from a place of having to assimilate, having to present myself a certain way. That was a huge kind of eye-opening moment. and I think that's the biggest thing when it comes to coaching that people don't realize because we all do it. Like it's not unique to myself or Dr. Wendy or people from our cultures. Like people do it every day where they're having to be strategic about what they say. And I think we tend to downplay. where that comes from or the effects of that. But conversations like this really surface what we need to understand about the effects of that. Lynda Harvey: I love that. And one word that we continue to to use throughout this conversation, and I really want to kind of for lack I'm going to go into corporate Linda. I want to double click on that, right? But the word that we keep using is survival. And I think that, you know, initially when we look at the when when code switching started to be studied and it was given a name and it was really introduced as a concept and a theory and then proven out. Clarence Bongalos: Yeah. Mm. Lynda Harvey: Right. It started in survival, right? And we've talked a little bit about how we survive in the boardroom. But how does that then translate to survival at home? Because again, like we we spend a ton of time at work. And and I have I have a good friend and Clarence has a good friend, Marcus, who shared with me that sometimes he does more code switching in his personal life than he does. At home, right? In order for him to feel part of a group or part of his community. And I hope he doesn't mind sh I'm sure he doesn't mind me sharing this. Sorry, Marcus, if you mind, but I didn't give your last name. So we're fine. but so but what ultimately what is how is that the toll that it's taking? Or do you find that you're doing it more at work or more in your personal life? Wendy Johnson, PhD: That's a good question. That's a very good question. Lynda Harvey: I ask hard questions. Clarence Bongalos: You know, I would I would probably say about equally, sadly. and I, you know, there's certainly professional clearance and there's like personal clearance. And I used to tell my staff this all the time of like, you guys only see professional clearance, you don't see personal clearance. And I think there's so much to say about the in between. The like having to sit in your car for a few minutes before going into the house to pause and like switch back to Dad Clarence to husband Clarence to Caldu Clarence because it there is a huge difference. Like casual Clarence is a potty mouth, and casual Clarence like doesn't really think about what he says. And professional clearance is very poised, very, very strategic. And going into house mode or home mode, you have to flip that switch back on. And sometimes I think I don't we don't recognize that there is such a gray Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Clarence Bongalos: blurry area of you think you switched it off, but you didn't. And you and that was one of the, you know, when we talk about emotional costs, at the end of my kind of corporate career, when I really had to reflect, and this was after having my daughter, where I started to really realize that I wasn't showing up at home the way that I wanted to. I was showing up at home, still taking everything that was professional clearance and and bringing it into the home. And speaking in that way, bringing the stress of all that kind of, I guess, again, code code switching that I had to do and whatever the toll of that was. And so I would say it's very blurry. And then even carrying that out to casual conversations in in the community, it I again, because I felt like it was so embedded in how I function, I was doing it so naturally without even realizing that I was doing it until my friends called it out and said, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Clarence Bongalos: You know, oftentimes they'll tell me like, why'd you switch the way that you talk? Like you went all like like you were you they they would point out that I would use like certain terminologies or certain tones or certain like ways of speaking when we go into different groups. And so I think it just blurs because it gets so embedded in us. And I'll stop there and pass it on over to Doctor Wendy. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Yeah, that's a very interesting question because I I'll go home and then I'll have people say, You're at home now. You're not at work. Lynda Harvey: okay. Yes. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Yes, they say that. CX Joe: Ha ha. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Yeah, I get that a lot. And they're like, okay, stop. You you are not you're not organizing or leading or directing and doing these different you're at home now. So it's so there are times that I'll sit in the car thinking I'm switching it back to home, but I'm still in work while so it's I agree. It can it can be blurry at times. However, I will say I have to make a concerted effort to switch it back when I'm when I go home. I really do. So it's it's it's challenging. Sometimes it's seventy thirty, sometimes it's fifty fifty. Honestly, it depends on the day. So it yeah, that's why that's my honest response. It really depends on the day. And there are even times I have to take a step back when I'm at home and just chill. Because it because I'm Always if when I'm in a professional setting, I have to be aware, I feel like my head is on a swivel, if you will. Is that just that that's just part of the process because we talk about survival, however, there's also an aspect of code switch switching when you're striving to elevate as well. So, you know, there's so many different components. So for me, it depends on the day, honestly. Lynda Harvey: Right. Uh-huh. I appreciate the honesty. CX Joe: I I think, you know, one thing I could comment on or relate to a little bit is the this dynamic of turning it off when you go back home. And of course nowadays for a lot of us, including myself and other areas of privileges, I'm usually at home when I'm working. So it's more of just running down a flight of stairs or something and now you're snapping the finger. And I hope my wife wouldn't mind me sharing this, but you know, I I I realized that I was really putting her through it, you know, poor wife, just being being in that consulting leadership kind of mindset. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Right. Right. CX Joe: And during the workday, it's all about hearing about problems and then asking a series of questions and kind of honing around a solution and presenting the solution. and realizing that I was doing that sometimes when, you know, she just needed me to listen to like shut the hell up and like be a husband and be a friend and a human being and just listen and commiserate. or also an interesting dynamic for me is my wife was born in another country. She moved over when she was eight. The other person outside of my immediate family I'm closest with is my best friend. And he he moved over from another country and he's thirteen. And I think eventually, even though I'd really be very genuinely self-critical, how long it took for me to kind of, you know, mull in some of these thoughts or have them break through, but just again around language, you know, and just being really guilty of I think early in my career, again expecting that everybody would conform and meet in such a tight, narrow, common place in terms of the way we were speaking and carrying ourselves and not even always being mindful of, you know, there could be one or more people in the room for whom English is their second language. I don't know any second languages very well. You know, a few words of Spanish, it's terrible. But I think sometimes, you know, for English speaking folks, and let alone again, not to belabor, but if you know like a white guy like me, I speak my English and we're just could end up being quite critical. And I think this is I think this is the dynamic to be very, very mindful of. I had an employee on my team at SeatGeek who started to broaden my horizons a little bit and made me realize as she was sharing her own experience in that workplace that she felt so much of the feedback she was getting week to week. And it's true, you know, we'd be in department senior leadership meetings and like, this person's doing better this week or worse this week. And she helped to illuminate for me that a lot of it was really just tied to this gargantuan sort of effort that she had to put forth to sound like the rest of us and really just all around the way that she was presenting herself and the words she was choosing and sounding, you know, damn similar to the rest of us. Whereas really like the substance of her ideas and her work were consistently phenomenal. And I I I always will like if give that person a lot of credit for just making me a teeny bit more self aware of some of these dynamics. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. And I think CX Joe: I'm really good at at posing a million thoughts and not framing into a question. It's one my areas of specialty. But we're just chatting, right? Lynda Harvey: We're just chatting. We are sharing our experience. I think the the other thing that's really interesting is, you know, Dr. Wendy and Clarence, you both are very senior in your careers, right? And you have made it to the tippy top of the top. And now you're advising others, right? You're going into organizations. And Clarence, you and I at length have discussed. How you're trying to really fix things from the inside out, right? You're you're going so far as you're developing a platform to fix things from the inside out. But what kind of what are some tangible things from both of you, right? Sitting at the very tippy top, right? Being being at the top and sitting down and like looking down. What are some tangible things that you can give the listeners? What are some things that we can give them? Number one, to either like, Help them cope or help them survive, or help people who are in, you know, sitting in seats of privilege. How can we show up for the people? What can we do? Like if we're fixing things from the inside out. And and Dr. Wendy, you also spend time doing a lot of this too. And I think you spend so much time with executive teams fixing it from the top. And what what are tangibles? What are things that we can give the people to help them? Either identify, have those conversations. I mean, I'm listening I I the when you said that people are like you're home now, I I have a similar story. My kids would be like, Mom, I just I don't need you to manage me right now. I just, I don't need you to manage me. Okay. And I'm if you knew my kids, well, Joe knows my kids, you would know that that feels very much like my children to say that. But like, what are some tangible things where we can identify that we are either showing up and going like you're at home now? Right. Or and I don't even love that. CX Joe: You're too smart. Lynda Harvey: that statement because it feels like I I hurt a little bit for you when you said that. But like what are what are tangibles? What are some things that we can do to either help the people identify, help the people be advocates, help the people feel seen, or help the people move from survival mode into like, no, this is okay. Right? Like what can we do? Clarence Bongalos: Do you want to take it, Dr. Wendy? Wendy Johnson, PhD: I'll start. Yeah, I'll start. I'll probably have more to say when you talk, Lance, but I think the first thing that stands out for me is, you know, don't overthink it. I think that's a probably one of the bigger mistakes I made is just overthinking it. I'd say stop doing that. And then you know, imposter syndrome has also a lot to do with it as well. So, you know, a lot of times I find individuals come to me that are Clarence Bongalos: Yeah. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Definitely qualified to step into some of these rooms and take things to the next level. However, they get in their own heads and they let imposter syndrome overpower them elevating to the next level. next thing is, you know, courage you. Courage is a big one. Courage and confidence, you know, those are the seeds that I find myself talking to people about all the time. Is, you know, people strive and goals and all these different things, but you gotta have the courage and the confidence to to do these things, to to sit in these rooms when you're by yourself. It takes courage to do these things. So, you know, you can't be afraid to take those steps. So and and this is actual information that I I say to people, I share with individuals all the time, whether I'm at a conference, presenting at a conference, mentoring, whatever it may be. I think those are the top three things that stand top three or four things that stand out in my mind that I've actually shared with individual individuals so they can get out of their own way and get out of their head, if you will. So I'll start there, but I'm sure I'll have more to say. Lynda Harvey: Okay, but I'm I wanna zoom in on something really fast. How does somebody find or the beginning steps of courage? Right? They I think that it's kind of like when I tell people to delegate, I'm like, just delegate. And they're like, what does that mean? What does courage mean? What does it look like? Or how does somebody start with courage? Wendy Johnson, PhD: Okay. good question. There's never gonna be a the right time. And I think that's probably the biggest thing is people always they don't make moves because they're waiting for that right time. And gotta get that courage to just do it. You can't just sit back, I'm gonna wait for a year or six months or till I get this or that. Why? I I I've said that to probably five people here that I talked to Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Mentor, whether they come to me as a conversation or what I was like, what are you waiting for? You know, you're the way things are going, you'll never be ready. It's not going to always look the way you want it to look. Just do it and then let the chips fall where they may, but at least you took that step. So that to me is what takes for that person to have that courage is to make a move. You gotta make a move. And I just said this to a person last week. I said, I guess. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Wendy Johnson, PhD: I actually said I said, I guess I'm struggling with understanding why you just haven't made a move. Just do it. Well, it's not the right time. Why? That's what I find myself saying is so why isn't it the right time? And then I get and then I get silence. And and the silence is you really don't have an answer. So you're just getting in your own way, is what I typically find that happens. So and Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wendy Johnson, PhD: I'm saying this because these are a lot of the things that I had to say to myself. So if because I wanted to to do this and elevate up, but I was getting in my own way saying, it's not the right time. I'm gonna wait until I do this. And then I ended up talking to someone and they ended up saying the same thing to me. So that's what I that's my response to that. And that's what I've said to people. And when I say that, it seems as if it lights a fire. Because that's what I wanna do. I wanna light the fire. I wanna light the fire that's gonna position you to take that step, not to keep keep sitting back and letting year after year, month after month go by and you're not doing anything. That's always my objective when I'm mentoring or at a conference or doing whatever I'm doing is I wanna light a fire. Lynda Harvey: Uh-huh. Mm. Mm-hmm. Love that. Clarence, what tangibles do you want to share with the people? CX Joe: That's awesome. Clarence Bongalos: yeah. So first I want to add a little bit of my perspective on the courage question because I think it's such an important question. and talking about topics like this, code switching, does take a lot of courage. And I will say for you guys to bring this on to the show, takes a lot of courage that I think a lot of leaders can take as an example of just, you know, being willing to have the conversation. but courage comes from fear, or the the opposite of courage is fear and So for me to the answer to how do you find courage is go back to the fear and ask yourself what you're afraid of. And this comes from kind of the philosophy that I've gained throughout my career of leading with curiosity and do just that. Like lead with curiosity, ask yourself what you're afraid of. Is it that you're afraid of how you're gonna come off for even asking the question? Is it that you're afraid of whatever repercussions, or is it that you're afraid of the narrative that you've built in your mind? But Ask the question of why you're afraid. And by asking those questions, you'll find the courage. So I'll start with that from an intangible standpoint and to answer the courage question. But to Dr. Wendy's point, like don't overthink it. Like everybody, everybody code switches in some regard. And so use that as a common thread, as a common ground that we all have a share I'm gonna use this carefully, but a shared experience to an extent. Where we we all do it in some form, but what is different is the cost of it. What is different is the depth of the experience. And that's where the leading with curiosity comes into play is don't be afraid to ask questions and don't feel like you have to water down your questions. Like the the willingness to have the conversation is and of itself the most valuable piece. And so lead with that curiosity, ask the question. and then for for the people who who do heavily code switch, I would go back to the awareness piece of know who you are and know why you're doing it. Know why you're code you know why you're having to code switch. Is it survival or is it strategic? Is it because you want to attain a certain level of success and it's coming from a place of I know what it takes to get there, not from a negative place of like I have to change my identity altogether. But you are aware that certain environments require certain ways of speaking, right? So if we talk about professional inverse professionalism versus casual, like that is a form of code switching where you know that to have the executive presence that will take you to a certain level of your career, you have to code switch a little bit and speak more professionally. so just be very rooted in your identity and do a lot of that work of knowing who you are. Lynda Harvey: Right. Clarence Bongalos: because that'll serve as a really critical foundation to what code switching means to you. And then for the people on the leadership side, my tangible would be just seek to understand, right? Like we hear this kind of phrase all the time, but truly it is seek to understand and lead with curiosity of unlike know and be aware that people are having to code switch to function and to grow and succeed in certain environments. And by having that awareness, being more willing to listen to what they have to say, the way that they have to say it, and not react, but be really intentional about how you are understanding and listening. Those would be my tangible. CX Joe: Can I if that was amazing, truly. and if I could ask a quick follow up question, asking this in the lens of in the workplace and either for you, Clarence, or really any of the other three folks in this call, I think do a lot of different forms of career coaching for folks. And you brought up the point of is somebody code switching strategically or as a matter of survival? And if the answer more leans towards survival, is that a sign that somebody should get out of that workplace because it's the wrong workplace? Or is that suggestion even a bit naive in and of itself because it's a matter of survival in so many workplaces? Clarence Bongalos: I would say survival isn't always a bad thing. and again, I'll say that with caution. and I'm very much a gray thinker. I am I don't think black and white, I don't think things are good or bad. I think there is a lot of grey gray area in the world. And for me, much of what I had to do from a code switching standpoint was a was a little bit about survival. but again, it's going back or you go back to the question of what is it costing you, right? Because when we talk about survival, there's different different depth to that, right? There's different costs. And I could argue that getting to the position that I got to in my career of like that C suite. Those were costs that I was willing to pay. Because for me, part of my identity was achieving success. Part of my identity was wanting to leave a legacy. And in order for me to do that, I understood I had to be in positions of power. I had to be in places that or in positions that could have influence and impact. And I understand that the landscape, albeit, you know, bad or good, requires me to do certain things. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Clarence Bongalos: And so from that perspective, I don't think survival isn't always bad. As long as at the end of the day you can look at yourself and say, I'm still me. I'm not paying a sick a cost that is so significant that I can't come back from it. CX Joe: Mm. Well said. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Yeah, what's let me expand a bit on I agree with everything you said, Clarence. I think that people just code switching, survival is definitely warranted. It just has to be intentional. 'cause I have seen people cold switch and they lose themselves. And quite sure all of you have heard the term sell out. I've heard several individuals that have been called sellouts because they've lost themselves. Lynda Harvey: Well Wendy Johnson, PhD: with the code switching. So meaning they've lost their their identity. they have this false sense of reality that they're something that they're truly not. And if they if you if you take the job, you take the success away, you know, that that would be a hard pill for them to swallow because they've lost themselves along the way, if you will. So You just have to be strategic, intentional, intentional with it as well. And do a lot of self-assessing along the way. so that if you find yourself getting too deep into cold switching, you know when to take a step back. because I've been there as well. So nicely said, Well, it's nicely said. Clarence Bongalos: Thank you. And I will add to that, it's not a linear path. It's not a linear process. Like it it's a lot of back and forth. I mentioned earlier on the call that when I was at the peak of my corporate career, I felt so misaligned. I felt so not me. And part of that a lot of that came from the costs that I paid over the years. And I spent the past year, you know, as I moved into self employment and really having the freedom to think, the freedom to be myself as authentically as possible. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Right. It is. Clarence Bongalos: I realized how much I was paying that I wasn't aware I was paying in terms of the costs of not just code switching, but all the ways that I had to change who I was. But I also recognized that a lot of that was growth. A lot of that shaped who I am today. A lot of that shaped the way that I see the world today, the way that I can understand things and look at things in a more again gray perspective than black and white. And so there is good and bad. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Clarence Bongalos: And there are gonna be times where you fall off the cliff and you lose yourself. But going back to being rooted in your identity and having enough of the self awareness to ask yourself the right questions, I think that's the most critical piece of as Dr. Wendy said, just being able to go back to who you are because that is gonna be part of the process. So I think that's important for listeners to understand is that it's not linear. It's not always always gonna be this upward trajectory of like, yeah, you're paying the price, you're surviving, but you're growing, you're growing, you're growing. There are gonna be times where you're going to just fall. And that's okay. As long as you can, again, going back to leading with curiosity, you lead yourself with as much curiosity and ask yourself the questions to get yourself back to center and get realigned. Lynda Harvey: Sure. you're so smart. You're so smart. well, I think this is a really great place to kind of like wrap things up. And I think we've had such a meaningful conversation. Joe, anything else you want to pepper in for the listeners? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Clarence Bongalos: thank you. CX Joe: sure. If you if you open the door for me to say one more thing, I just, you know, I'm really, really admiring of of the insights that have been shared by Dr. Wendy and by Clarence. And, you know, the last thing that I was noodling on very deeply, listening to you to and learning from you is it sounds like to some extent code switching or aspects of it, you know, like language that you're choosing or you know, ways you're presenting or whatnot. And I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like to some like you said, Clarence, there's gray here. It's not just black and white. And then in some cases it sounds like you're comfortable. you know, strategically kind of thinking about those dynamics and how you're presenting and get from point A to point B. But I think it's a really powerful point that you can't lose yourself and your identity, who you are at the core in the process. And it got me thinking about how our words and actions impact others. And that's really where I was just like going off the deep and thinking in my head. But again, in a very way I'm very grateful for just very thought provoking. And I know for me in my career, very sort of what I consider mild, sort of very first class, you know, maybe privileged ways that I've felt the need to code switch. like in my case, it'd be like talking faster and in clip tones and trying to sound smarter than I am. yeah, like play that game a little bit, but I've always tried at least to draw the line of, you know, then when you're speaking to someone fast talking, and then suddenly they're like, and that person, they're like worthless. Let's get rid of them on the team. This is like an extreme example, but it comes up and these senior leaderships are like, whoa, Nelly. I'm willing to like vibe with you or, you know, try to talk in this clipped cool f but I that's probably one extreme example. But I think to your to your points much more eloquently put, it's like staying true to who you are at the core and and again how your words and actions are impacting, you know, both yourself but others around you as well. Lynda Harvey: Amazing. Well, because I because I am me and I have to like I I just put on my bus driver hat and I'm taking a left turn. I want to talk about something, you know, totally different than our topic. But for the people who have stuck with us, I always like to give them a little nugget of something, right? And so at the end of each episode, I ask, you know, what's got you hot under the collar? So Clarence, I'm gonna start with you. Anything anything you wanna share with the people that's got you hot under the collar? Clarence Bongalos: Okay, two things. One, cyber trucks. I cannot. I cannot with cyber trucks. And I hope nobody on this call has a cyber truck, but they are just hideous and just need to not be on the road. was it really? CX Joe: Ha ha ha. nice. This is so amazing. that was Linda's one week, by the way. yes. And my my two young boys, they get excited when they see Cybertrucks like Yay. And I told actually told them Linda about it. I like, you know, you know my friend who I do the podcast with? She hates Cybertructs and they were like, why? Lynda Harvey: I'm gonna send you the picture, Clarence. I'm gonna send it to you as well. I there's a guy down the street who owns a nursery who has a cyber truck. And every now and then he pulls a dumpster behind the cyber truck. And it's glorious. CX Joe: Right. Clarence Bongalos: Best friend also loves cyber trucks, and it's gotten to the point where I think it's like if if you guys remember slug bugs, like with Beatles back in the day, it's kind of like that with Cybertrucks, where you see a Cybertruck and people are like, Cybertruck. so that's my one. And then I will also say bell bottoms returning. not because they're ugly, although debatable, but because it just now makes me feel. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, yeah. Yes. CX Joe: What? Clarence Bongalos: Much older that I've cycled through a generation of fashion that has now returned from my childhood. So that's mine. Lynda Harvey: And they call them flare. That's the upgraded, that's the new marketed version of Bell Bottoms. Flare. Clarence Bongalos: yes. We've rebranded it. Yes. Lynda Harvey: Doctor Wendy, what's got you hot under the collar? Wendy Johnson, PhD: Well CX Joe: Mm. Wendy Johnson, PhD: tell you what's got me hot under the collar. Why do we keep why do unqualified people continue to get leadership positions? Do you know that's rosy bananas? No matter how much my gosh. No matter how much we talk about it, no matter what goes on, organizations, institutions, whatever you want to call it, continue to Lynda Harvey: I've got content I'm posting about that, just by the by. Wendy Johnson, PhD: hire and put unqualified people into leadership positions. I'm dealing with that constantly. That's the first thing. Second thing is just because they make it in your size doesn't mean you should wear CX Joe: Ha ha. Lynda Harvey: So true. So true. CX Joe: About a hard left. That was classic. Clarence Bongalos: I hear you, Doctor Wendy. I'm clearing out my closet. Wendy Johnson, PhD: I mean, I guess I say that because it's summertime and I'm not gonna expand, however, just because they make it in your size doesn't mean you can Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Clarence Bongalos: Mm. Lynda Harvey: Ha ha Wendy Johnson, PhD: Ha ha Clarence Bongalos: Well your first is Linda's entire shtick. Lynda Harvey: It really is. CX Joe: Yeah, the first was one of those moments we have a lot on the podcast where we're trying to wind things down and then you drop that and I'm like, tell me more and why do you think it happens? And then I realized, shoot, that would be a whole other episode of the podcast at least. Yeah. Clarence Bongalos: Or episode. Wendy Johnson, PhD: A whole another episode. Lynda Harvey: Is it is it is. That we can have Doctor Wendy back for and she can talk Wendy Johnson, PhD: Just saying. Lynda Harvey: all the pitfalls and all the challenges. Joe Joe, what's got you hot under the collar? Wendy Johnson, PhD: Please, I'd love to. CX Joe: Yeah, so you know, like everyone else, I hope I don't offend anyone on the call. But use your turn signal, folks. When you're driving, use your turn signals. They're there for a reason. I do a lot of one lane driving around where I live. And if you use your turn signal and then you slow down and stop right in front of me, that's great. That's just normal driving. Very safe. If you don't use your turn signal and you abruptly stop your vehicle right in front of mine. That has me hot under the collar and is unsafe. Think about it. Clarence Bongalos: You n you know what you should explore in an episode, Joe? Turn signals and leadership. CX Joe: What? ooh, I like that. Are you suggesting there's a correlation? Clarence Bongalos: y yeah, I mean imagine if we had turn signals on leadership, how much more better it could be. CX Joe: Yes. Yes. You also got me to think about maybe using your turn signal as a sign that you give an F about other people's experience in life. Okay, anyways. Here I go, Linda, in my own left and rights. What about you, Linda? Exactly. Cybertruck not using a turn signal. Clarence Bongalos: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Especially if you're on a cyber truck. Sorry, go ahead. Lynda Harvey: Ex Okay. so true story about a Cyber Trek. I had never paid attention to the blinker until one time I was driving on the freeway and I was behind one. And the blinker's like a four by four square on this massive vehicle. I almost had to pull over. I was laughing so hard because I was like, this is absurd. CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: But that's not what's got me hot under the collar. My thing is the popcorn button on a microwave. CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: Like, what in the actual what in the actual fuck? Like, here's the thing. Who designed it? cause I want to have a conversation with them because it never works, right? And then you take it like an extra 20 seconds because it always stops and it's still like heavily popping. And you still have like 20 seconds, and then you go like an extra 15, and then the whole bag is burnt, and then the house smells, and it's a thing. So I just CX Joe: Don't trust it. Lynda Harvey: I I like I use microwaves very little in general because I have a whole issue with science ovens, but you microwave popcorn is something that just cannot be replaced in my life. Like it just cannot be replaced. And I can't trust the microwave the the popcorn button on my microwave and it's really annoying. CX Joe: That's a great call, Linda. The button can never be trusted. What I do is I set it to 333. I press start and I stand there and I don't move and I obsessively listen. Sometimes I even close my eyes just to tune in and just hear the popping and the velocity of popping. And at that exact moment, press it. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Yes, yes. Y you have to stay and you can't walk away. I agree, you can't walk away. You can't. Never walk away. Lynda Harvey: No, no, no, never walk away. it's like never turn your back to the microwave popcorn. all right. Well, on that note, everybody, thank you for listening. Like, subscribe, go check out Clarence's podcast, buy Dr. Wendy's book, which we should get the link so we can link it. and thanks for being here. CX Joe: Yeah. Yeah, ne never walk away, whether microwave popcorn or otherwise, just don't walk away. And on a serious note, I well as the friendship and admiration for Linda that brought you here is, you know, to my benefit and I think all of our listeners benefit as well. So Dr. Wendy and Clarence, thank you so, so much for being with us and lending us your time and energy and wisdom. your greatest gifts. We really appreciate it. Clarence Bongalos: Thanks for having us. Wendy Johnson, PhD: Walk away. Clarence Bongalos: Mm-hmm. Thank you. Trillion honor. Lynda Harvey: Thanks everybody. Wendy Johnson, PhD: You're welcome.