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Punks and Skins The History Most People Don't Know (part 1) · Hold Your Ground

• Copy: Hey everybody, welcome back to Hold Your Ground the Podcast. Working class culture without all the bullshit. I'm Copy, it's my first time introducing the show. I'm here with my co hosts Joe and Luis. Fellas, how we feelin'? Luis: Hey, it's you know, it's been a week. I'm I'm just happy to be here with you guys. Woohoo. joe: Yeah, that exactly what he said. Copy: All right. Well, that sounds like an interesting week for all of us. I mean, mine's not much better. So all right. This episode we're gonna switch a little bit of gears today than we normally do. We're gonna dive deep into the traditional skinhead roots. And Luis is gonna kick us off with the breakdown of what we are gonna be tackling this issue. So Luis, set the stage for us. What are we getting into? Luis: Well shit, thanks, copy. First of all, I wanna have you noticed how professional we're all being today? We all wrote scripts and we all wrote what we wanted to say. So fucking congratulations to all of us. Good fucking job, brothers. Copy: Wait. Luis: With that being said, brother. With that being said, today we're gonna talk about us, right? And we're gonna talk about our subculture, what it means to be skinhead broadly, as well as what it means to us as individuals. We're gonna set to right some misconceptions that some people may have about skinhead, and we're gonna share with you the beauty of it, what attracted us and made us skinhead, and how forever we are grateful to the Win Rush generation and the gift that they brought to all of us. A better world, one in which white and black can blend together. With that, I guess I'm gonna hand it over to Big Fucking Joe. Again, congratulations on our professionalism. And Copy: Ha Luis: copy and I are only gonna interrupt When we feel that it's convenient to do so. So Joe? joe: what's Copy: Take it away. joe: going on everybody? So this shit ain't about the super famous bands and the corporatist bullshit. You can watch all sorts of documentaries about that. We want to talk to you about the version of punk rock and skinhead culture that didn't make it into the rock and roll hall of fame. We wanna talk about the movement, the lifestyle, and the people who've kept it alive when there was nothing to fucking sell. Right? So I guess we'll start with punk rock. Yeah. Everybody fucking views punk rock as being anti-establishment. That's something that I continually see and it's something that I see the right wing fucking constantly push that punk rockers of today have lost their way because they just bow to the establishment, which is bullshit, right? And they think that their counterculture fucking fascist nonsense makes them punk rock in some way. while fuck the system is is yes, it's it's very anti-establishment. People seem to fail to look at the reason why we're saying fuck the system. Right? I would say that punk rock is not inherently anti-establishment, but it would fall into three things, right? Anti-authoritarian, anti-oppression, and pro-autonomy. Right? I mean that that kinda sums it up for me right there. I don't need somebody telling me what to do because they've assumed some sort of fucking authority. And we certainly don't need people trying to make others' lives worse because of the way that they were born. Because they have some authority fucking complex, right? So it's kinda wild 'cause that that anti oppression and pro autonomy still falls under anti authoritarian. And I think that that sums up more of what fucking the the spirit of punk rock is, more so than anti establishment. I mean, I don't know. What do you guys think about that? Luis: Absolutely agree with you. I mean, I think that saying that punk rock isn't anti establishment is gonna blow some people's minds, to be honest with you. joe: Well, that's the thing, right? Like there's similarities, but there is a distinct difference between anti establishment and anti authoritarianism, right? Because I mean think about it. So like if the establishment, if the system were to go to all of our fucking utopia, right, where people just got left the fuck alone. Is punk rock then gonna be like, no, we need to fucking have pigs in the streets fucking shooting people in the face? No, it's it's not, because at the end of the day, Copy: Yeah. joe: it's against authoritarian fucking nonsense, right? I mean and Copy: Yeah, absolutely. joe: and to to to further that to further that, I wanna just point out that punk rock and punk rockers and skinheads have historically been involved in all sorts of fucking establishments. Right? Look at fucking labor unions. Look at fucking organizing. Look all all sorts of shit. Food collectives. Food not bombs. Prime example. Luis: I mean i if we're gonna be honest, like Punk rocks were even part of the Naz Nazi establishment, right? Punk rock was. Like we can look back to the joe: Absolutely. Luis: early seventies when punk rockers, it was in punk rock vogue to wear Schwazis, to get Schwazis tattooed on you. and people say that, they did it, you know, to be anti conformist and anti their parents' generation. I think it's still racist. Sorry, I don't know where I was going with that. I was just like, but yeah, you know, yeah, punk rock is definitely establishment rock. I would say that. Maybe I'm Copy: Yeah, I Luis: wrong. Copy: I I I would definitely agree. to me that seems more like you're kind of being a fucking edge board at that point where you're you're wanting some kind of fucking attention, whether it be negative or positive, depending on whatever your audience is there at the time. Luis: I d well see, I mean that that that takes us into this different fucking conversation, right? Is there is there a problem with wanting to be seen or heard? I say no. Fuck dude. We have this podcast because we wanna be seen, we wanna be heard. I think it's the message or the reason why you want to be seen and heard that is or is not the problem. Does that make sense? Right? Copy: Yeah. joe: Word. Luis: Hold on. that's my kid. joe: Okay, gotcha. So I feel what Luisa's saying, and I don't I'm not saying by any means that I support fucking the early punk rockers fucking wearing swastikas and shit of that nature, right? But I can see their edgelord fucking shock in the awe amongst, you know, British fucking social like culture because it was something that These people are just coming and destroyed their fucking country, right? Like not long Copy: Right, exactly. joe: before all that. so I mean like I I I see it, you know what I mean? But where I was going at with the whole entire establishment thing was that like I said, there's been throughout history all sorts of of examples of punk rockers working within the establishment. And setting up their own systems and establishments, right? And I'm not saying that it was all unicorns and rainbows, because it certainly wasn't, because Luis is 100% right. There's absolutely racism and Nazism within the punk rock movement. There's fucking absolutely bigotry. There's all the fucking bad things that there is in the rest of society, right? I think that as we have progressed, one of the things that I love about punk rock. and skinhead subculture is that We really have policed our own, I'd say more so Copy: Yeah. joe: than any other faction of society that I've ever seen. You know what I mean? Like you had fucking Nazis showing up to shows, you had people who were being fucking all sorts of wildly fucking bigoted towards LGBTQ people, and they got shut the fuck down eventually, right? Like it Copy: Right. joe: it took a while. I'm not super proud of the amount of time that it took, but it took a fucking it it eventually happened. Where they're like, Now we're not stand for this and you know people went to chucking hands about it. You know, I mean you've Copy: Yeah, it's joe: seen that copy, I've seen that, Luisa's seen that, we've all seen that. We've all been part of Copy: Yeah, it joe: it. Copy: well and and time and time again, that's also been kind of a fucking pet peeve, I guess. I don't know if I want to call it a pet peeve. I don't know what you would call it, but having the the timeline it it takes some people to finally get behind that because I know probably you and I both or all three of us have had to deal with there's been situations where we're trying to fucking let people know and everybody's like, No, no, no, hold back. Don't jump the gun. And then it ends up coming out that and I'm not trying to like make it sensationalized that we're we're always right, 'cause I'm not. But in certain cases that and these are the examples I'm giving, it's gone along that route and it's like we should not be waiting this fucking long to remove a piece of shit. joe: A hundred percent. You know what I mean? That's where like I was saying, the the punk rock subculture and the skinhead subculture have both been inundated with fuckheads Copy: Mm. joe: since the beginning. But once again, I'll say it once again, I'm talking in circles, I don't give a shit. I think that out of all of the factions of society that I have seen, these two specific subcultures that have a lot of overlap with each other. have been the best at policing their own communities and fucking putting people out and fucking being like, nah, we ain't putting up with your bullshit. Copy: Yeah, absolutely. Luis: I'm good. Trying to decide if I want to push back, right? Because I mean, of course, there are always instances and we can all point to them, right? In any city, there's always you can be like, well, what about this or what about this? But thinking about it before I speak, overall, I would have to say that you're right. And I I know it's gonna be like, I don't think but yeah, overall, yeah, I would agree with that statement. Copy: Well, and I absolutely do. Luis: Wi wi with an a with an asterisk, right? Meaning that like, yo, there are fuckheads everywhere, like you said, right? joe: Yeah. Luis: And and I mean there's a lot of people in every city that get weird passes. That's all I'm gonna say. joe: There is, but where I'll where I'll where I will rebut your rebuttal is what other subculture as a whole or what other faction of society as a whole do you see actively fucking set up resistance to fucking prejudice and bigotry and racism? Copy: And that's where I was gonna go into, at least with the Portland area. before I really like when I first moved here, I didn't know where the scenes were. And so I went to the Astreet saloon. It was in the alley. It was a good spot. Occasionally there were punk shows, but there was a lot of metal shows. And I watched that metal head scene just absolutely allowed some of the most bigoted behavior. the dress, like wearing SS bolts. Like I'm sorry, that's not edgy. You're being a fucking you're you're glorifying the fucking Nazi Germany like their their secret top end secret police and secret s you know SF forces. So why why would you let that happen? And that's where I I can see with Joe. I d in and I again I'm just speaking from my experience from Portland. I've seen the skin and punk scene time and time again. It does take time though, and that's what irritates me, fucking do police their own. joe: I mean sometimes Luis: So joe: it takes time, sometimes it's fucking right on the fucking spot. You know what I mean? Copy: Yeah, yeah, that is true. That is very, very Luis: So I I Copy: true. Luis: I I mean I will say this is that Portland says all the right things. Okay? But try to be a person of color in any subculture in this town and have a different opinion. Copy: Yeah, I would agree with you a hundred percent on that. I've watched yourself have to deal with it, plenty of other homies, people from other Luis: I mean Copy: organizations even where they're they're Luis: There's like one black there's one black skinhead in our town. I I I mean Yeah, yeah. Copy: Yeah. No no actually no, there's one that you know of. joe: No there's not. No, there's not. There's there's yeah, there's one that you know. Luis: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Copy: Yeah. But I mean joe: Yeah. I n I know I know at least five like that I know that are part of my fucking direct homies. You know what I mean? And that's just Luis: Yeah, like I know a few. Yeah, yeah. Copy: Yeah. joe: because the only reason why I'm saying, there's o that's still not a lot, right? But that's because Copy: Right. No. joe: I know these people and talk to them on the fucking daily. Copy: Right. Luis: Yeah, no, there's one that everyone in Portland knows. Copy: Right. Yeah. Right. joe: There's one that everybody knows, yeah. Luis: Yeah. Copy: And that and that that go and I again goes in with what you were saying is I've watched yourself, people from other organizations that are POC like in this community watching them what they're saying almost instantaneously by a lot of people be fucking dismissed because you all you gotta do is watch people's body language. joe: word. But so I think to wrap up I I don't want to spend a bunch of time on punk rock. I love punk rock, but we're all fucking skinheads. You know what I mean? So Copy: Yeah. joe: I guess where I want to wrap up the punk rock side of things is that I think that it's a misguided notion to think that punk rock is inherently anti-establishment without looking into why. Because the establishment that we currently have and that we have had all throughout our history is oppressive, it is authoritarian, and it fucking takes away people's personal autonomy on how they fucking want to live, right? We have you know, all throughout history people who have either granted themselves the authority or had society grant them a the authority to be above others. And I think that that is bullshit. And that's why I've never really fit into society. You know I mean and where why I find myself where I am currently in in life. You know, I mean here I am I'm forty three years old Copy: Right. joe: and I I've been an outcast of society. Since I could like talk, you know. Copy: Well that's the one thing I do love about our culture in the skinhead sense is yeah, there's a lot of that, you know, misfit, you know, outcast in the punk scene, but in our scene is in particular, seeing how instead of just going to the I don't want to offend my friends that are in the punk scene, but fuck I'm gonna say it. We look way better, we dress way better. And that joe: yeah, absolutely. Copy: that and and the style of music, don't get me wrong, I love punk and oi music just like all of us do. But come on, there ain't nothing like a good reggae track or a good soul track. Luis: The first time in my life I ever saw a skin head dressed down. The very first time when you see that and you go There is nothing b that. That bro. Fucking I'm done. There's nothing better. joe: That's it. Right? That's it. Copy: Yeah. Yeah, full dress like Luis: Fuckin' you see a dude wearing crombies and a nice button down with some fucking braces and boots looking clean as fuck. You go Yeah. There's not Copy: Yeah. Especially with the boots being polished and you know, occasionally the ones right? Luis: What what do I gotta do? How do I get there? joe: Word and you what's wild with the skinhead culture, subculture, is that it's even more so distorted than the punk rock Copy: Mm. joe: subculture, which is wild because skinheads came from, you know, a culmination of Jamaicans and fucking British youth. It it literally it's a subculture that's rooted in black history. So it's fucking it's crazy to see how it has been distorted. especially in the United States, right? Because everybody hears skinhead and what's Copy: I think Bonehead. joe: the first thing that comes to fucking mind? Nazi. Copy: Bonehead. Luis: Speaking of which, speaking of which. Copy don't say anything. You know because I told you. Joe, what's today in Bonehead History? Like today's date? joe: dude today what is today? Let's see. It is September twenty-fourth. Today today Luis: Dun dun dun dun dun. joe: is the day where we fucking celebrate Ian Stewart crashing headfirst into a fucking tree. Luis: Today was the Copy: What did I do? Luis: day that Screwdriver had their biggest hit, their most successful hit ever. Copy: Big ol' oak tree. joe: Word. W word. So yeah. Copy: Fuck you, motherfucking screwdriver. Luis: Rest in piss, bitches. Copy: I I would love to shit on your grave. Sorry, I yeah, yeah. joe: Yeah, so okay. Yes, I agree. One hundred no, it's all good. I agree one hundred percent, dude. Fuck screwdriver. Fuck screwdriver, even the first two albums. Copy: All you fence walking bitches. Sorry, I I know we're trying to be a little bit more professional, but god damn it. Luis: What what? You you you you don't l joe: Even the first two. Luis: you don't listen to Screwdriver, but but you know their first two albums are are really musically well. You know, they're so good Copy: Ha ha ha. joe: He Luis: musically guys. Maybe not lyrically, but musically it's so good. Copy: Yeah, that yeah, anybody that says joe: Yeah. No, it's so great. You know what I will say though, being that it is September twenty fourth, I wanna see back with a bang into that fucking tree. Ha ha ha. Copy: my Christ. joe: Alright, but let's let's get back on track here, Copy: Yeah. joe: right? So straight up, like fucking like I was saying, especially in the United States, a lot of people hear the word skinhead and they immediately think Nazi. That's not where it came from, as I stated before, right? The or the origins of skinhead are it's a culmination of British working class and Jamaican rude boy youth. It started in the you know, late nineteen sixties, as we had children from the Windrush generation go to the UK to help rebuild after the war. What's up? Luis: I was just gonna ask, because I said I was gonna interrupt from time to time, if you could just mention the wind rush and how like really without without this generation, right, without Churchill asking the colonies and the Commonwealth to come back and help rebu build England, our soul culture would have never happened, right? This it like I Copy: Right. Luis: think this is historic. Like like these people on that ship coming to England and settling on the working class estates. I think it's it's it's It's a pivotal moment for me. So sorry there. Now I'm gonna fuck back off over here. joe: No, you're all you're Copy: No, that a that adds joe: you're all good, man. Copy: context to what Joe's saying, I think. joe: It absolutely, man, and it is one of the most important things to understand when you're looking at the beginning of Skinhead. You know what I mean? The thing that really is paramount to that British working class youth and the Jamaican youth is the music. You know what I mean? They brought over ska, Rocksteady, Reggae, Sol, RB. Luis: I mean, so within that, then you can even get into okay, what is a Rudy originally, right? In Jamaica, what is to Rudy? How did a Rudy dress in Jamaica? 'Cause they wore the pork pie hats, they were the the trousers with just the braces, no shirts, right? The shoes with no socks. And you gotta go to that they brought the sound systems to England, right? Because in Jamaica we've all heard the fucking sound system war stories. That they would get together with huge sound systems each Copy: Mm. Luis: and then and then fucking play the music and then fucking fight? How awesome is that? That Copy: Right? Luis: like fucking and fight? You know joe: For fucking Copy: Th there's joe: sure. Copy: one of the fucking mainstays of skinhead culture. Luis: Mm-hmm. So I mean all of this, right? All of this flavor coming to the to the estates and mixing with the mods and the rockers to create something brand new is fucking brilliant. Copy: Yeah. joe: It is, man. It is. It's fucking awesome. And having that, you know, that Rude Boy influence is fucking sweet. And that's what where the the look of Skinhead too, where it branches off, you take aspects of that rude boy you know, style and and branch it into working class fucking how do I wanna say that there, right? I I wrote it down here. I have a whole I wrote a full on script, by the way. Right? Luis: Congratulations. Copy: So 'cause we're professionals, goddammit. Luis: I I I would call it that the Ridboys mixed with the mods or AKA the Teddies, right? joe: But I mean I mean so like a hundred pr a hundred per a hundred percent. Copy: Yeah. joe: It's a Rude Boys mix with the mods and it it had a working class feel to it, right? I mean the boots, the braces, cropped hair, herringtons, button down shirts, crombies, every the whole fucking Copy: Right. joe: aesthetic, you know what I mean? It wasn't just about looking tough, it was connected to having a working class identity. Copy: Right. Luis: Which actu which weirdly comes out of the teddies, right? Because the teddies were about that too. The teddies were working class kids specifically that had nice clothes, right? Copy: Right. Luis: Like and nice joe: Word. Luis: suits and everything. And those kids became the mods, which once mods met fucking the Rudies, whoop where fuck they fuck. And they have this biracial baby. joe: We have a fuck in yeah. We look we made a we Copy: It's like this strain and this strain fuck. Luis: And it opens up. joe: made a s we made look we made a skit in. you know, Copy: Yeah. Well Luis: Yeah. joe: and what I will say what I what I do wanna say to any young people that are just getting involved in the subculture, if you may be listening to this, I see I see it a lot. We see young people that want to jump on board because it does have that tough guy aspect to it, right? But Go go listen to the music, right? Like that that Copy: Yeah. joe: is the music and music and style are the two things that really make a skinhead Copy: skin. joe: be a skinhead. You know what I mean? What's up? Luis: Can I add two more things to that? joe: Yeah, absolutely. Luis: Scarfish said it best when he said All I have in this world What's all he has in this world? What are they copy? Copy: My word and my balls, and I don't break either one for nobody. Luis: I think those two things are paramount to being skinhead for my for me. Right? Like if joe: Word. Luis: I can't trust my Copy: Integrity. Luis: brothers integrity, if I can't trust my brothers A, B, or C gets done, what's the point of being brothers? Copy: Exactly. Well, and joe: Word? Copy: just to add it, you know, I know we're going to the origins, but you were talking about Joe, you were talking about like people's when they hear skinhead in America especially, they automatically go to that fucking bonehead. And for those who don't know what a bonehead is, that's what real skinheads call the shitheads that call themselves skinheads, but they're racist as shit. So Luis: Well, let's get into that for a minute. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, copy. Copy: No, you're good. Luis: Joe, is ca joe: What's up? Luis: ca can a skinhead be a bonehead? Are all skinheads sharp if they're not boneheads, or do they go the breadth of the political gamut? joe: So no, fucking Nazis and and racists cannot be skinheads, right? By definition of what a skinhead is, you can't be racist and be like, I'm a skinhead, right? You can be a Copy: Right. joe: fuckwit with a shaped head. you know, and that but Copy: In a shitty dress. joe: where I where I where I want to start with that too though, I guess where I'll start with that though, is that that wasn't always the fucking case. Right? Like I don't wanna romanticize the history of Skinhead that they were just these great fucking dudes who didn't have any cunts among them because there absolutely were. I mean, go talk to fucking go talk to some Pakistani people who lived in the UK Copy: Right. joe: in the fucking seventies. You know what I mean? racism Copy: Well, there's even songs about that. joe: absolutely. But but where I'm go hold hold on, Luis, I just let me finish off this thought real quick. And like I said, I I have it written down here even, right? there were skinheads who started getting involved into far right politics and got pulled in by the National Front in the seventies. You know what I mean? and they went that way, and a lot of that had to do with the same type of shit that we're seeing right now. Right now across the world. It had to do with fucking wars, it had to do with refugees coming to live amongst people in their communities because their fucking homes were destroyed and it was unsafe for them to live where they originally were. You know what I mean? so we did see people who were weak of mind that started getting into that that right-wing ideology that, you know, all the problems I have in life are because these people came and took. my fucking opportunity from me. Copy: They took my job. joe: Yeah, what's up Louise? Luis: So I'd like to point out a couple of things there. In my book to this day, if you call yourself an anti racist skinhead and you listen to skinhead abash them, fuck you. Okay? Fuck you. The only way the Copy: Yeah, absolutely. And that's the song I was talking about too. Luis: Yeah, the only way you should listen to that song is if it's about Proud Boys. Right? Cause you know that line, Proud Boys can't reggae. Anyway, Copy: Right. Luis: second of all. As society has grown, and as people have become more educated and more aware, so have skinheads. Okay? We cannot forget that way back in the day, the the late 70s, early eighties, the boys in New York went queer bashing on a Friday night. Right now. Does that mean that in two thousand and twenty six they go queer bashing? No. It's that we acknowledge our histories, our wrongs, and we have righted them. And the one thing I think is fucking amazing in the year of our Lord two thousand and twenty six is that Being skinhead means what it meant in nineteen sixty nine, like right, like fucking working class, fucking loyalty, this, that. But it's so much it's more encompassing now. And you all joe: Mm-hmm. Luis: know what I mean. That we have skinheads that are part of the rainbow community that fucking thirty years ago that would have never been a thing. Copy: Yeah. joe: Yeah, as we as we learn better, we do better. You know what I mean? Luis: Work. joe: And I think I wanna throw out a really important distinction in my mind. especially for the people who all think, my god, a skinhead is a fucking Nazi, or they're they're all these people. Like I said, when we learn better, we do better, first off. And then the distinction that I want to make here is that the the right wing did not invent skinhead. They tried to fucking appropriate it, Copy: Yeah. joe: right? And I think it's important to remember that. Like there were absolutely people who started in that late sixties spirit of sixty nine movement that went the wrong fucking way. That that's undeniable, you know what I mean? But that Luis: Yeah. And now Copy: I it's similar to that. joe: is not that is not that is not the origin of our fucking subculture. Copy: And and to give like a you know, a comparison, it's like the original outlaw type country was meant like for anti establishment, anti government, and then what happened? It got appropriated by dickheads like David Allan Coe and you know, the like that fucking took over that shit. And that's you know, you think outlaw country, well, you know, for me I think dumb hillbilly shit. And then now because of social media, I'm able to find people that are doing outlaw country in the original sense where, you know, they're against oppression, they're against racism, fascism and the like. And they're they're really about community based stuff. Luis: Look, you guys. joe: I like that one guy, what's that song, Ye How Fuck the Law until the law ain't fucking y'all, it's Ye haw fuck the law. I'm like, Yeah, dude, that's what's up. Copy: Yeah. Yeah. Luis: I I I mean i i it comes through a a skin bird once said that, you know, my whole record is in the way that I dress, right? And it's true, and right, because we have to remember that working class people by the establishment were thought of as dirty, uneducated, and less than. Right? We're talking about England, so we're talking about dirty ass white people. Sorry y'all, like right. That's where like I mean English people had fucking fleas. I don't know what to tell you. But like so so Copy: Yeah, dude. I ain't gonna lie. Luis: so so right. So you know, like when you see like a little white kid with coal and you know they were dirty and shabby. And so working class pride. You look good. You you you have pride, you feel good, you're part of society, you are no less than Copy: Yeah. Luis: them. Copy: Well that but that you like you just said, you're you yeah, yeah, we're dirty ass people, but we're coming home from the fucking factories after working and taking the pride to go, I'm gonna go out on a fucking Friday night with the mates and I'm gonna look fucking good while doing it and you know, whatever rustabouchy got they got into, they got into. joe: Word. You know, one thing I want to throw out there too for everybody is that Skinhead and the Skinhead subculture, it it predates punk rock. You know what I mean? It it does. and where I said that there's overlap is once punk rock came along, man, you got these these youth that are looking for outlets and punk rock's a great fucking outlet. You know, I mean it's aggressive, it's fast, it's in your face, it's fuck you. And a lot of people fucking jumped in with that, right? So then you got the the formation of oi, street punk, fucking you know, working class punk rock. And and really that's kinda what brought a along that hooligan football culture as well. Copy: Yeah. Luis: I mean, I think we also gotta talk about the different like like Scar has generations, you know, skinhead has generations too, right? especially American skinhead, right? Because in the early eighties, skinhead fashion was a pair of fucking docks, some ugly ass bleachers, right? A fucking Copy: Yeah God. It looked like shit. Luis: braces with like no shirt. You know what I'm saying? Copy: Yeah. Luis: Cause like but but that but again, that harkens back to what? The Rude Boys. Because Copy: generational right. Luis: the Rude Boys were walking around without bleachers, right? But with fucking no shirt and braces, right? And just a pork joe: Yeah. Luis: pie hat. So, and now how in the year of our Lord we're going back to more traditional styles and looking and not looking so punk because there is there was that late seventies, early eighties influence of punk. Coming into skinhead. joe: Word. And I mean that carri that still does carry over today, in a lot of ways, right? You have people that there's still people all over the world that dress more in that fashion than dressing down all the time, you know what I mean? or dressing down at all. Really. You know what I mean? Copy: Yeah, I've I've got I mean shit. At at a few weekenders I've been to, you see all sorts of the the spectrum like what fucking Luis was saying, where you've got this generation represented, you got this generation represented, and so on and so forth. And, you know, I I I think it's pretty obvious, you know, to those that can are watching on YouTube that we're not the kind we like that trad that trad skin look where, you know We look fucking good. joe: Yeah, it worked. So that Luis: I mean I I don't know dude, I get ma I I not that I get mad, but I get old man and judgmental. Like if you're going to a weakender and you don't look as sharp as possible, Copy: Stress the fuck down. Luis: what are you doing dude? If you go in there smelling with like no face wash, your teeth unbrushed, your your fucking boots unshined, what are you doing dude? Copy: Korean. joe: You know what the thing is too, I I will say, right, when it comes down to like the tough guy, this, that, and the other, you know, I I see all aspects of the, you know, it's easier to, you know, get into a little scrap when you're fucking not fully dressed down, this, that, and the other. But what I will say, there's a a time frame here when copy and I started hanging out quite a bit and I was in Portland for a few days. And I was dressed the fuck down. Twenty-four seven. I mean fully fucking dressed down. And I remember I don't know if you remember, but we were at a at a certain establishment copy and some gentleman was asked to leave Copy: Mm-hmm. joe: and he shoulder checked me on his way out. Copy: Mm-hmm. joe: And I was standing there, I was with my wife, we had a bunch of other people there with their partners and shit. And I I Copy: Yeah. joe: couldn't fucking let it go, dude. I couldn't let it go. Copy: And you shouldn't have it and I I will say this, the place where we were, it was a place where I frequented and since Joe wasn't from Portland at the time, he would come out from where he was living at the time, he'd come into town. He took it upon himself to be like, Hey, I really wanna fucking smash this guy out. And I was like, Hey man, you Luis: familiar I'm I'm familiar with this story. joe: Yeah, no but like Copy: You don't have to ask me for shit, that's your fucking wife, bro. Go handle your biz. joe: So like but that's where I'm going out with this, right? So I'm fucking I mean fully dressed down, dressed down, high polish on the fucking boots, fucking braces, Sherman, the the fucking two the nines, right? And I didn't cause a scene. Copy: Nope. joe: I that's the thing, when I go when I when I when I get there, it's not the yelling, it's not the screaming, it's I don't do that. I walked calmly down the street And I I waited till this dude got down a block away from where we were all standing. And I walked down, I said, Hey, excuse me, I need to have a s I didn't even have a talk with you. And he turns around and he Copy: Like you'd shit himself. joe: he looks at me and he goes, shit. And I go, What? And he goes, I already talked to this crew and I'm like, I'm not from that crew, I'm from a different crew. Copy: Yeah. joe: But when you left this establishment You fucking shoulder checked me and looked at me like I was a fucking cunt. And I can't have that. So what do you want to do about it? And he was just looking at me just like, my god, and fucking his girlfriend or wife or whatever comes up at this moment now and she's looking at me just like my god and she fucking she had muttered out, he's terrifying. And That was hilarious to me. You know, I was like, That's fucking kinda funny. But the guy was like, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. I'm in a bad fucking mood. I like, That's cool, man. But see there's the other thing too. Like, I don't always need to go fucking throw hands with somebody Copy: Right. joe: just because. Like, we remedied the situation, you apologized, you acknowledged that you were being a fucking cunt. We're good to go. You know what I mean? But where where I'm going out with Copy: And that y hundred percent. joe: that is just being completely dressed down. I think When you carry yourself in a way, especially when you are dressed the fuck down and you're just super nonchalant, like what's up, homie? Like, yeah, I'm I'm beautiful and I will fuck you up. Copy: Yeah. joe: You know what I mean? Like there's a thing there that happens. Luis: I mean th th there i the Copy: Yeah, I agree. Luis: th there is something like you said, yeah. And I will say this though. Skinheads get the respect out in public because they do the work. And if you're gonna go out there and you're gonna be fucking half assed about it, fuck you. You don't have to fucking win every fight. Copy: No. Luis: You have you have to be willing to catch a black guy because they ain't gonna kill anybody. You can't be one of these dudes that's like, let me get a picture of this Nazi Copy: Yeah. Luis: right there and put it so other people Hey guys, dude No, it's up to it's If you're a skinhead and there's a Nazi there, even if there's a dude Joe's size, okay, and it's just me, Copy: Don't fucking stand. Luis: I have to go up there and fucking stand. That's part of the fucking deal, bro. And Copy: Yeah. Luis: I'm gonna start joe: Yeah. Luis: looking at people like that, right? Because here's the thing in Latino gangs, you guys know if you fucking if you're in your no your neighborhood and you're like, I'm a North A, right? And you tax tat on you, X I V, cool, cool, cool. Whatevs is what ev's. But when you get to fucking lock up, you're expected, because you have the fucking artwork, you're expect Copy: Better be back in it. Luis: you're expected to do the work and get into their program. You know what I'm saying? And I think joe: Word. Luis: we have to look at it the same. Because what's true, we can be affected by shit that happens around the world here in fucking Portland. Copy: Yeah. Well, and also there there really should I mean, because Gabin, I just mentioned it that the social media aspect of you know getting the culture out there is you get those I I call them personally the fucking fashion skins, where they go on fucking social media, they dress down and they'll sit there and shame people. And generally the lot of those ones that I've seen and a lot of them that have come. to events, you know, here in Portland or wherever, they have no idea about the culture. And they'll start shaming people and they come from fucking money. And it's like that that in and of itself, the way I was brought up is yeah, I dress like shit because I was poor shit, didn't really understand everything. And this is back before the fucking internet. So like, yeah, I got made fun of, but old heads grab some shit out of their fucking closet and been like, here. Luis: Bro, I didn't start having money for like all the parries until like a couple of years ago. Right? Copy: Yeah. Luis: I used to have old shit from T T and stuff. But I think we also if we're gonna talk about Skinhead boys, I think we need to touch on on on one thing about it, right? It's something that we always hear a lot. The for misogyny and skinhead is silent. joe: Word. Real quick, Luis: Right. joe: I let's get to that, but let me let me finish answering the question that you had asked me a minute ago and we will we will get to that. F we will get to that Luis: yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Copy: sorry. joe: for sure, right? But you said, you know, there's so there's this so many people think that there's sharps and that there's fucking boneheads and that's it. Right? And that's that's not the case at all. so if somebody comes up to me or any one of us and is like, I know I know the fucking skinheads. I know the sharps. You know, like nah you fucking don't know shit. Like you are or Copy: Cool. joe: you I'm I'm sus of what the fuck you're saying, right? Because skinhead is You what, dude? You got fucking traditional skinheads, you've got fucking apolitical skinheads, you've got left-wing skinheads with rash, you've got anti-racist skinheads with sharp, you've got fucking boneheads, you've got gay skins, you've got scooter skins, you have fucking hooligan skins. The the the list goes on and Copy: Yeah. joe: on and on and on, right? So like sharp was something that's I I am a sharp, right? And sharp stands for skinheads against racial prejudice. So I want I want to touch on this real quick. quick right. Sharp came to be, I believe it was nineteen eighty seven in fucking eighty what? Eighty nine? Eighty No, no, no. Copy: think so. Eighty four. Eighty one. Luis: Eighty one. Eighty Yeah. No, you're Roddy talks about that he comes to New York in eighty one and sees sees the Sharp Fliers and then goes home and does the Trojan logo to it. Hold on, I'll look it up. Hold on. G l just let me look. joe: That's too fucking early, bro. I'm I like I'm telling you it's too early. Alright, let's see. Fucking on the spot, fucking fact check. Luis: Hold on. What do you w okay, when did Roddy Moreno design sharp logo? I swear to God it's like nineteen eighty one, bro. Copy: He's this is like my Luis: my bad, bro. My bad. Fuck you, Luis. Luis, you're a piece of shit. Okay, let's move it on. Copy: No, Luis can't even remember what day of the week it is. joe: Alright, so it was like nineteen eighty seven and Marcus Pacheco. Yeah, that's w Luis: It's eighty nine. It's eighty nine. joe: that's when he did that, right? So fucking in nineteen eighty seven, Marcus Pacheco had started sharp. He's he's credited with starting skinheads against racial prejudice, right? Because we did have this fucking rise in the United States of boneheads that were Getting fucking Buck Wild, man. They were coming out to shows, they were beating the shit out of people, left and right. They were catching people in the streets, there were stabbings, there were shootings, there was all all the all the shit happening. And so Sharp was formed in direct opposition of that, right? So like it was Our main fucking thing here is being fucking anti-racist, and it's more of a militant branch of skinhead, right? So while traditional skinheads are not generally racist, left-wing skinheads are not generally racist. You know what I mean? Like they're they're just they're not. They're also not militantly anti-racist where they go out and look for the fight. Copy: Mm. joe: You know what I mean? I'm trying to I'm trying to think of how to say things without really like putting us too much Copy: Getting into detail. joe: in a crosshair. Yeah. You know what I mean? and it was done, you know, racists don't own the skinhead subculture. And we want to make that very fucking clear first off. But that wasn't the main driver behind it, right? It was the fucking fact that we have friends who are Jewish. We have friends that are black, that are Mexican, that are fucking all sorts of fucking Latino or fucking Asian or whatever, and you're not gonna come in here and fuck with my fucking with with you're not gonna come in here and fuck with my people. You know what I mean? Like straight up. It's not it's not happening. Copy: Yeah. Essentially family that's what people don't realize about this culture is you know, it's a brother sisterhood family type of fucking thing, man. joe: Words. So like that's the thing with Sharp, especially when it was founded in the early days. Like you could you could have diff different political opinions. You could have fucking different you know opinions about economics, about the government, about religion, all sorts of shit. You could disagree about fucking virtually everything, but you stood on being anti-fucking racist. Right? So then Roddy Moreno, also known as Pops, he came over to New York and he went back to Wales and in 1989 and developed that Trojan head with the, you know, the sharp SHRP skinheads against racial prejudice, that that logo. Right? Go ahead, Louise. was it in 1981? Copy: Care I care. joe: Ha ha ha. Copy: He's gonna Luis: It's sad that joe: Hey, don't yell at me, I got asthma. Luis: You can mock my damaged brain k and because I smoked pot and I got eighty nine and eighty one wrong. joe: Word. Okay. So I'll I'll I'll continue I'm just fucking with you, but all right. Go go smoke another one, bruh. Copy: Are you looking for Luis: If you put a circ if you put a circle, if you put a half circle if you put a half circle on the eighty one, guess what? It becomes eighty nine. Copy: Hey Joe, I think he's looking for sympathy, and if you're looking for that, look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis. joe: Words. So I'll I'll continue on with my thing here. I think that Sharp makes a lot Luis: that was funny. joe: more sense as to why it was formed when you understand the history that came before it, which was the shit that we were just talking about, right? Copy: Right. joe: Because Sharp isn't just some anti-racist organization that appeared in the 1980s out of nowhere. There was a direct need for it. It was connected to the history of skinhead culture itself. If you're gonna claim this culture, then you have to acknowledge where the music came from. You have to acknowledge the Jamaican influence. You have to acknowledge the black artists who helped create the soundtrack for our fucking lives. You know what I mean? That sounds super corny, but it's legit. You know what I mean? I mean it's yeah, I don't know, man. I don't know. Copy: I agree. Yeah. Luis: No. Soundtrack for our lives. It does sound corny, but joe: Ha ha. Luis: it's also true, right? Like, I mean, think about some of the shit that's in the soundtrack of your life. And like like we all have some of the same songs. The hotter they fall. Fucking this r Copy: What a great movie. Luis: right? Yeah. joe: Fifty four forty six. That's one that fucking everywhere. Yeah. Copy: Yeah. That's my number. Luis: Yeah. Breaking up is joe: Yeah. Luis: hard to do. Right? Copy: You know, it Luis: Enjoy yourself. Nightclub. Fuck it. Yeah. Copy: Yeah. joe: Back with a bang into that tree. Copy: At full speed Hey, can we test the structural integrity of a tour bus against a tree, please? wait th joe: It wasn't a tour bus. He was in a car by himself. Luis: Yeah. He wrapped it around. Copy: shit, that's right. I'm thinking of fucking Metallica. joe: Ha ha ha. Luis: Ooh ooh. Copy: I'm gonna get hate for that, but you know what? Luis: You know what? Look, dude, here's the thing about Metallica. Fuck you, Lars. Okay? Fuck you, James. Like like seriously, when you guys go out and play like Mexico City and like two members do La Chona, like Kurt and that fucking bassist guy, and like the other two go off stage, you guys fucking suck. I hate you guys anyway. Copy: Dude yeah, you need to be breaking out La Chona with man. What the fuck's your problem? Luis: Bro, you guys fucking you guys need to wrap your shit around something. Copy: Yeah. I mean I am as pale as it fucking gets. Before we actually started the podcast, just for shits and giggles, I showed the color of my legs to Luis and I was look, look how transparent these fucking things are. And even I with my uncoordinated ass would get out there and dance the children. Luis: I mean, it's the thing, dude. I don't think that a world sans Metallica is that bad of a world. Copy: But we're getting off topic here. joe: Jesus Christ. We are. So Luis: I mean like but just correct me if I'm wrong. joe: alright, so I'm gonna bring up I'm gonna bring up Rash now, right? Because we just talked about Sharp and where Sharp came from. I wanna I wanna speak on rash, right? Because that's a whole entire another fucking part of the skinhead subculture. And I'm not talking about the fuckheads in Portland that run around acting like fools. I'm talking about rash as Copy: Okay. Yeah. joe: an entire worldwide fucking thing, right? Because I'll come out and say like the ones in Portland gave it a fucking bad name. Copy: They absolutely did. joe: Right. But rash is another distinction worth mentioning because while we did share not being racist, that wasn't that wasn't Rash's main focus, right? It rash's main focus was left wing politics. Rash stands for red and anarchist skinheads. Right. So it's explicitly connected to left wing politics. yeah, what's up? Luis: I would just like to convey my personal respects to Rash International. Rash South Amer joe: Absolutely. Luis: Rash South America are doing work. I got nothing to say about the Northwest, but respect where respects due to the compañeros 'cause I'm not their comrade and I hate that word. And we're not necessarily friends, but much respect to you all and the work that you do on behalf of the gente. That's what I will say. Copy: And a real quick, just for those that saw my joe: Word. So go. Copy: my response where I was going like that, it's because of the Portland Rash faction that even though they said they were rash rash international, nothing but respect for you guys. joe: A hundred percent. I w I one hundred fucking percent agree. Yeah. And Rash International, that's the thing too. You even told those guys like, nah dude, you guys you guys don't get to fly that flag. Get the fuck out of here. You know Copy: Yeah. That was great. joe: what I mean? Like straight up. yeah. But I guess we're kinda coming towards the end of this fucking thing, right? And I don't want to forget about the part that Luis had mentioned, so I'll I will segue into that right now, right? When we talk about the history of of Skinhead and the Skinhead subculture, we haven't always gotten it right. You know what I mean? There was racism, there was sexism, there was homophobia, violence, drugs, egos, fights, all that shit, right? And one of the big things like Luis had just said, 'cause here's the thing, a lot of these things, the racism, the homophobia, we have worked to eliminate that from our scene. And we continue to work to eliminate that from our scene. One thing that still seems to be fucking prevalent is misogyny. So Copy: Absolutely. joe: as Luis had stated, the in Sharp or the in Skinhead is silent for misogyny. You wanna speak on it? You you brought it up, Luis. Go for it, man. Luis: I mean to be honest with you, no. I wish we would I mean I think like to be honest with you, I think we absolutely should have this conversation in a future episode because we could give a whole episode to this, but I think having this part of the conversation without a skin bird or a few skin birds to to to tell us how it is, it just becomes a bunch of cox mansplaining, bro. Like so so Copy: Yeah. I agree with that. joe: Word. I'm down with that. Luis: so like we we like, I mean, we know enough people and Jenny Woo, if you happen to be listening to this and you find us, we're gonna be reaching out because I would like to have your perspective. joe: A hundred percent, dude. Luis: You know, and and and I'm gonna be honest with you. Hey Jenny, I used to make fun of your music. I'm sorry, bro. Like I used like I had a friend that really was into your shit and I used to send them memes about like a kid getting like a Jenny Woo Christmas gift and it was like her him crying, like opening the things but but Copy: I'm sure that's gonna make her wanna come on the goddamn podcast. Luis: Hey bro, there was a band that you wanted to tell that their new album sucked. Remember that? We don't need to go into who that band was. Anyway, yeah. So so so so we wanna w we we wanna joe: All right, all right, all right, all right, all right. We're gett we're getting way the fuck off topic here, but Jenny Woo is a prime example of Copy: Yeah. Sorry. Luis: have you on and we would love to have you come on because you in your videos you talk about this shit all the time. That's it. joe: A hundred percent. Jenny Woo is a prime example of misogyny in the punk rock scene. And watch, there'll be dudes that play it off like, No we just don't like her music. Nah, dude, you don't like the fact that she's a woman doing her own thing front in a fucking band, like straight up. yeah. Copy: But we also have you know, the other friend of ours on the east coast, I'm sure her insight is to what she's had to deal with personally, especially back there with the situation she's got going on. Luis: Yeah, there are lots of skinbirds. Every skin bird has stories because here's the thing every woman has stories because it's all o all men till it's none of us. joe: Word. Word. Alright, so we're gonna we're gonna shelf this topic until we've got some women on here with us where they can give us their views and I one hundred perspe one hundred percent respect that so I'll go into some fucking closing here. You know what I mean? and if you follow us on the TikTok TikTok Luis: Che c<unk>o? joe: You'll know that we've said it many times that you know we're transitioning out of just talking about fucking politics. Because at the end of the day, like everybody knows the issues. I'm not gonna change anybody's mind. If your mind ain't fucking made up by this point in the game, you're fucked off in the head anyways. I'm not gonna change your minds. You're not gonna change my mind. And As I stated in the beginning of this whole entire thing I really wanna focus on that punk rock and that skinhead history, the shit that you don't see. In the documentaries, right? Because there's an entire fucking world that doesn't get covered. And being that we have the connections that we have in the scene with musicians and bands and fucking activists and people who've been in the street and have been putting in that fucking work for decades, I feel that it would be fucked up of us not to you know, document that as sort of a living history of our fucking subculture. yeah, that's ultimately good. Copy: Well, it's also we kinda we kinda owe it to the younger generation of skins coming up too. joe: Yeah, and ultimately that's what I want this show to be about, and politics will always be part of it because our lives, our subculture is inherently political, you know what I mean? but I don't want to make it about that corporate version of punk. Not the version that gets turned into a Halloween costume and just the famous bands that everybody already knows. You know what I mean? 'Cause You can fucking turn on Netflix or Hulu or YouTube and watch fucking ninety-four thousand documentaries about any one of those things. I want this shit to be about the bands that people don't fucking know about or the bands that people have forgot about. I want this to be about the people who made the zines, the people who ran the labels, the people who put on the shows, the people who organized, and the people that, you know, were involved with it and kept it alive when there was no money in it. Copy: A you know, it's not just Joe that feels that way. I think like he said, I think he hit the nail on the head is like if you don't know where your politics align at this point in the game, fuck you. You're you're a fucking adult for the most part. The people that are listening to us, you're you're probably adults. You should have your you sort your life out. And I'll just end it on that. joe: Word. You got any last words? Get it. Luis: I will say th Yeah, I will say this. We will always hold true to ourselves. We will always be non compromising. All right. And we will always speak what we believe. Now, with that said, we do have a new website that we have launched called BMGportland dot com. Okay. And at this site there is a page for the podcast where we're gonna be listing all our episodes and You know, people like copy and Joe and myself. Well, the three of us. Fucking not people like, but the three of us, you know, we'll be writing articles and thoughts and uploading videos from time to time. Also, while you're there, stop by, get yourself a copy of How the Anti Fascist Saved Christmas. Look, this is a Christmas book that I wrote with a friend. You we you can order it on the podcast. Five dollars from every book goes to help an indigenous queer youth. How does it go to help? We're trying to give them $25,000. Cause by December 12th, we want to sell 5,000 copies. All right. And we're I I don't know where we are. We're somewhere like between like 300 and 400 already down. So we're almost there. so stop by, get a copy, right? white people, if you're listening to this, that means you got internet, that means you got a wallet, open up, break bread. Okay, do something. Joe always says if we all do a little. A lot gets done. So let's change an indigenous queer youth life. Copy: And copy says buy a copy, god damn it. Luis: With that said, I also like to mention a big thing. we're gonna publish this tomorrow. joe: Yeah. Luis: Okay, cool. So this is gonna air before the Oregon Ducks play. So the Oregon Ducks are playing USC. It's a must-win in the in the early season for us. So I hope you all get out, wear green, you know, big fucking O. Let's go, Eugene. Let's go, fucking ducks. Okay? Let's fucking go out and fucking beat OJ Simpson's fucking old team. And let's fucking beat those Catholics back to hell. Thank you very much. Copy: And on that note joe: On that note, we'll see you guys next time. This has been Hold Your Ground, and just remember on this day of September twenty-fourth, Ian Donaldson Donaldson Stewart, I can't say his fucking name, finally achieved something that Screwdriver never could: a permanent cancellation. Go fuck yourself. Luis: And a hit.