Latest / North Meets South Web Podcast / LawnHub, Saloon, and Salesforce

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LawnHub, Saloon, and Salesforce · North Meets South Web Podcast

• 0:00
  -Hey. I'm Michael Dyrynda. -And I'm Jake Bennett.
• 0:03
  And welcome to episode 182 of the North Meet South Web podcast.
• 0:08
  -Chuka, chuka, chuka. -Let's j-
• 0:11
  -Hey. -Let's just assume you heard it. I don't
• 0:13
  know why you don't hear it anymore, but it definitely played.
• 0:15
  I have no idea. It's, yeah, it's fine. It's fine. Hey, everybody. Welcome to
• 0:19
  episode 182. We're going to skip the chit chat. Do you know why? Do you wanna know
• 0:23
  why? I'll tell you why. I'm starting the chit chat, but we're gonna skip it.
• 0:27
  -Do it. -I am... Um,
• 0:31
  I think I'm entering that stage of life
• 0:34
  where you're just perpetually tired, all the time.
• 0:36
  -Mm-hmm. -I think it's just how it is. I think
• 0:37
  there's... I don't think there's any coming back from it. I think it is just
• 0:40
  called life, and I think that's where I'm at right now. And so I'm like, "You know
• 0:44
  what? Let's just get into it." Like,
• 0:46
  no need to, uh, you know, pretend like, uh, we've got limitless energy here. Like,
• 0:52
  let's get down to the nuts and the bolts. But
• 0:56
  that'd be missing one of my favorite parts of the show-
• 0:57
  This has been two weeks in a row that this has-
• 0:57
  ... which is catching up with you, Michael. How are things going, my friend?
• 1:00
  This is, this is two weeks in a row that you've been, like, tired, tired. Which is
• 1:04
  -very unusual. So- -Dude, it is. I think it... Well, I think
• 1:08
  -it's going back to the school thing. -It could be something, like, it could be
• 1:10
  -seasonal. -I think it's the changing of the weather.
• 1:11
  -Yeah. -Yeah. I think that may be what it is.
• 1:13
  -Yeah, that's what it is. -I am... We, we had like this pocket... So,
• 1:17
  we're heading into spring now, and, uh, Australians, we just say like the first of
• 1:21
  September is spring. We don't, we don't hang around for like the spring equinox or
• 1:25
  whatever the heck. You know, it's not the 22nd of September. We start all of our
• 1:28
  seasons on the 1st of the month. When they- You know, on the q- on the quarter
• 1:31
  that they roll around in.
• 1:33
  -Respect. Respect. -So we're heading into spring now, and, um,
• 1:37
  we... Because it's spring, it's like sun but it's also rainy. But then it's cold,
• 1:41
  but then it's sunny, but it's not warm. And so I had this pocket of time on the
• 1:46
  weekend where I was like, "I gotta mow the lawn now 'cause the weeds are getting out
• 1:49
  of control." And
• 1:53
  I'm gonna do it so that when the lawn stuff... Which I just shared a photo of
• 1:57
  the, the box that this came in in, in the cash money. From that-
• 2:01
  -Oh, okay then. -It's a local company called Lawn Hub.
• 2:04
  -Mm, nice. -Which sounds-
• 2:05
  -Good name -... similar to another thing that is also
• 2:08
  -a hub, and their branding- -Oh, sure. Yeah, GitHub.
• 2:10
  -Their branding- -Yeah, sure. Yeah.
• 2:12
  Yes. Yes, definitely. Um, and their branding matches color. Like, all of the
• 2:17
  -naming of stuff is- -Oh my
• 2:18
  ... is very much in line with the other hub.
• 2:21
  -Mm, mm. -And so, lawnhub.com.au. So I've, I've got
• 2:24
  their stuff
• 2:26
  had come in today, and so I had to mow the lawn because you're not supposed to,
• 2:30
  like, spray... I've got this spray stuff. You're not supposed to fertilize the lawn
• 2:35
  or do any of that kinda stuff within 48 hours, or 24 hours, whatever it is, of
• 2:40
  -mowing 'cause you wanna catch the weeds- -Okay
• 2:41
  -... as they're in their growth cycle. -Gotcha. Sure.
• 2:43
  So I did this on Saturday thinking I better do it now 'cause it's gonna rain
• 2:48
  -on Sunday. -Yep.
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  And then it didn't rain on Sunday, and it didn't rain on Monday, and it hasn't so
• 2:53
  far rained today but it's supposed to rain this afternoon and all night today and
• 2:56
  -then tomorrow and Thursday. So I've got- -Gotta put... Yep. You're playing the game.
• 3:01
  And, and it's like, okay, so I wanna do
• 3:04
  this, and you're supposed to do all of this lawn care, you know,
• 3:08
  in September ahead of the growth period. And it's like, I need to mow the lawn to
• 3:13
  get it ready so that the weeds are growing to then hit it with not the, not the weed
• 3:18
  -killer but this is like a growth stuff. -Okay, sure.
• 3:21
  That is supposed to, like... It's a wetting agent and, and a fertilizer that's
• 3:25
  supposed to
• 3:27
  spring the lawn into growth. And of course the weeds-
• 3:29
  -Okay -... which are also there, and then as the
• 3:31
  weeds are growing on day 10, you then hit it with the weed killer. Now, I don't
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  -know- -Interesting
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  ... I don't know how you're supposed to plan this because how do I know in 10
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  days, especially with the fits and starts of spring-
• 3:42
  -Yeah, yeah -... when the rain is gonna come? Because
• 3:45
  -you're not supposed to apply this stuff- -Right before rain or anything like that,
• 3:50
  -yeah. -Um, right before rain, you're not supposed
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  -to, you know- -You want it to be dry for a couple of
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  -days, yeah. -So I don't know.
• 3:53
  -It's tough, right? It's tough. -So I'm just hoping it works out right.
• 3:56
  Yeah. We've got a buddy, I've got a buddy who does like... He's really big into
• 3:59
  lawns and he's like, he goes out in the spring and he measures his ground soil
• 4:04
  temperature.
• 4:05
  -Right. -And so he'll like... If it's before, you
• 4:07
  know, if it's before the... You know, you wanna get your pre-emergent weed control
• 4:12
  down between 58 and 61 or something like that, and if you go, you know, I don't
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  -know. So anyway- -Not to that extreme
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  ... I just tell him like, "Hey dude, text me when you're putting your stuff down."
• 4:20
  -That's what I always say. -Yeah, and I'll do it.
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  "Just text me when you're putting your stuff down." And then I'll do it too.
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  'Cause he lives you know, you know, five miles away, so I'm like, all right.
• 4:27
  -Yeah. -Chances are if it's, if his soil
• 4:29
  temperature is all right, it's, mine's going to be about there too.
• 4:32
  -It'd be about the same, for sure. -Yeah. Anyway, it's, that's a big help.
• 4:35
  -But, uh, anyway. -So yeah. So, so doing that at the moment,
• 4:37
  but like trying to fit it in with, with the weather is ridiculous.
• 4:40
  -Yep, yep. -And so, because I mowed the lawn even
• 4:42
  though it was wet it was still enough to kick up the pollen and so now hay fever
• 4:45
  -season is upon me. -Oh, hay fever it is. Yep. Here it is.
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  So, right. So this is my thing. You know, I wake up in the morning, morning feeling
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  terrible, not wanting to get out of bed because my head hurts and my nose is
• 4:54
  congested and, and you know, we're back in that. Fortunately, I know because I did
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  mow the lawn
• 5:00
  and it is that time of year that I'm like it is just hay fever.
• 5:04
  That's what it is, yeah. It's not something else. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  I'm not playing the, the COVID or hay fever game. So I feel rubbish in the
• 5:08
  -morning but Re- -The COVID or hay fever game.
• 5:10
  ... Re just
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  had
• 5:13
  septoplasty because she's, like, she's always had bad sleep. Like she will sleep
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  -for 12 hours, wake up and still be tired. -Mm-hmm.
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  And so, you know, gets to a point where you finally want to do something about
• 5:26
  this. You're not gonna just accept that this is
• 5:28
  what it is. And so she went and saw an ENT, an ear, nose and throat specialist
• 5:33
  and they said, "You know, you are waking as you sleep
• 5:39
  but it's not enough
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  that you need to start looking at a CPAP." You know, face mask while you sleep kind
• 5:46
  of thing.
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  -Yep, yep. -This option of the septoplasty was to go
• 5:49
  in and to realign her turbinates because she had a deviated septum in her nose.
• 5:54
  -Ah, okay. -So they go in there and... Like day
• 5:56
  surgery, they go in there with a drill and they go, you know?
• 5:58
  -Oh. -Do whatever they do and sort it all out.
• 6:00
  Oh, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
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  So it was like day surgery but she was, you know, she was under for it, of course.
• 6:05
  They don't do this while you're awake and she woke up with-You know, like, no
• 6:08
  bruising. They they do it pretty pretty good these days. Because, you know, we
• 6:12
  needed to start mucking around in there around the place, it's like Oh, yeah. ...
• 6:15
  right near the surface. So you would assume there'd be bruising and stuff, and
• 6:18
  I'd have questions to answer for a for a few days after. Why has your wife got
• 6:23
  black eyes and all that kind of stuff. But, um-
• 6:25
  Just stay home, honey. Just stay home. I'll go do-
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  -Yeah. So- -... I'll go do other stuff that you need
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  -to focus on something else. -Yeah. So she was like ... She had a week
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  off work which was which was nice, you know, took care of the kids. And it was
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  funny though because I said to her
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  halfway through Saturday, like, she had this surgery on on Thursday, and I said to
• 6:40
  her halfway through Saturday, I said, "Look, I know that you had the kids for a
• 6:44
  whole week while I was in Denver. However, you had the kids for a whole school
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  week where you get them up in the morning, you take them to school."
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  -And then you say goodbye. Yes. Yes. -And you say bye bye, and then you and then
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  you see them again in the afternoon.
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  Which, don't get me wrong-
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  -You have them for a week -... don't get me wrong, it's still ...
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  Yeah. But don't get me wrong, it's still
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  hard work. But there's seven hours out of the day where they're not there.
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  -Agreed. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. -I had them Saturday. Right? I took them
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  grocery shopping in the morning. We we got home at lunchtime, and I'm like, crap. It
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  is only lunchtime, and they're still going. Like, they wanna keep going. I'm
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  like, I
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  I was so tired at the end of that weekend, like, more tired than I've ever been.
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  -That's fine. -But long, long winded way of saying, like,
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  maybe you've got sleep problems, and this is why you're feeling tired.
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  Maybe. Maybe I do. Yeah. Or or maybe it's just a seasonal thing too. I don't know.
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  I'm not sure. That's a that is a fair question. Um, I do see-
• 7:42
  Just don't be telling me it's still a seasonal thing come December or come March
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  -if you like. -Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Let's let's keep-
• 7:47
  You've gotta look into it.
• 7:48
  Let's keep checking in. Yeah. Let's keep checking in on this. We'll see we'll see
• 7:51
  what's going on here, and I think that's a this is a good you know, we'll we'll make
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  this a recurring section of the of the show here. So
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  hey, with that out of the way, I am actually really interested to hear about
• 8:01
  something you've been chatting about with me recently,
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  which is some of these fake HTTP stuff. So, you know, we've talked about this on
• 8:08
  the show a number of times, this idea of, like, this gateway pattern and how we
• 8:12
  structure it at Wilbur where, to give you a quick rundown, we will create a gateway
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  class which is responsible for newing up a client, setting up the base URL, any
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  tokens that would need to be retrieved or pulled from the config to set up that
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  client. And then we will have methods that make calls to endpoints and handle any
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  specifics around that endpoint, whether it's caching or whether it's rate limiting
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  or whether it's, you know, massaging a response that we get back or have it
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  handling an erroneous response and all those things, which is great. But then
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  what we'll do is we'll, uh, bind that into in the container, um, and we'll bind that
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  to, you know, an an interface. Right? And that interface will be implemented not
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  only on the HTTP side of things, but also we'll have a fake that returns
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  data that we have pulled probably from the API, gotten a real response, and then
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  we'll sort of load that into the fake. And we'll have, um, different responses a la
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  magic tokens. Right? So, you know, stripe back in the day, you'd have 4242 gives you
• 9:07
  a valid response and 4141 gives you an invalid CVV, whatever. So we do something
• 9:11
  similar to that. But I know that you guys are big Saloon users, which if you don't
• 9:16
  know what that is, listener, uh, you should definitely go check that out. Sam
• 9:19
  Carrey has an amazing package called Saloon. Very popular nowadays. And I'm
• 9:23
  interested to hear kind of what you've been kicking around with that. So you've
• 9:26
  been chatting about it a little bit, and I wanna get a clear picture of what exactly
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  it is you're talking about
• 9:31
  and if it solves some of the same problems or or what you got. So go. It's all it's
• 9:36
  -all you, my friend. -Yeah. So, yeah, I
• 9:39
  we
• 9:40
  we're doing this integration at the moment where we had, like, some old, old library
• 9:45
  that was like, it's long since been deprecated, no longer maintained. So we
• 9:50
  had copied the vendor code into our application code to integrate with
• 9:54
  Salesforce.
• 9:56
  And that was, you know, to to push leads in there, to pull contacts out, things
• 9:59
  -like that. -So it's like a PHP Salesforce SDK sort of
• 10:02
  -idea? -Yeah. Basically. Yeah.
• 10:03
  -Is that what it was? Okay. Okay. Sure. -But it was you know, it was like PHP very,
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  very PHP
• 10:09
  5 code.
• 10:10
  -Okay. -But, yeah, long since unmaintained. And at
• 10:13
  some point in the last 18 months, I think, like, fairly recently, we moved to
• 10:17
  using this other library called Forest, f o r r e s t,
• 10:21
  and it allowed us to directly run SOQL, so Salesforce object query language, I think
• 10:27
  -it is. -Interesting.
• 10:27
  -Which is like the the version of SQL, uh- -Okay
• 10:31
  ... that you can use to query Salesforce. And we thought
• 10:34
  -Customize the Salesforce. Yeah. -This'd be a great solution. You know, we
• 10:37
  can write the queries ourselves. We can do it. Um, but there was not really a good
• 10:41
  testing layer for it to the point where we were using mockery and we were creating
• 10:46
  mock expectations that, you know, this method would be called with these
• 10:49
  arguments. It would return this stuff. And
• 10:52
  the problem with that I mean, number 1, don't test what you don't own kind of
• 10:56
  -thing. -Oh, yep.
• 10:57
  But but number 2, mocks and I know that, um, JMack has been on an adventure trying
• 11:03
  to improve this in, uh, I think, Laravel specifically,
• 11:08
  um, and he's gone off and he's been doing other things that have come up in the
• 11:10
  meantime. But he's been trying to improve the messaging around when a mock
• 11:14
  expectation fails. Because when a mock expectation fails, it just tells you,
• 11:18
  like, mockery underscore some, like, hash or whatever that it's generated for this
• 11:23
  thing. It's saying, expected this, but it didn't happen.
• 11:26
  -Yeah. Yeah. And it's very -And that's it. Like-
• 11:27
  It's not it's not clear at all. The the error message itself is is horrible. Yeah.
• 11:30
  It's horrible. It tells you that the
• 11:31
  expectation is not correct, but you don't know why. And so then what you end up
• 11:34
  doing is, like, if you're a, quote unquote, rule developer, you will go and
• 11:38
  fire up xdebug and you would follow through and look at all these things. If
• 11:41
  you're a Laravel developer, you go and start digging all over the place to see,
• 11:44
  like, what was actually in this object. And and then you're looking, like, what is
• 11:47
  diff and whether you're using xdebug or you're using DD, you still have to look
• 11:51
  at, like, what is my expectation and what is in the thing. And some of these
• 11:55
  Salesforce objects are quite large. So we've got 20 or 30
• 11:59
  things in here, and you've got to look at, like, what's missing, what's added,
• 12:01
  what's different. Is it in a different order? Is it somewhere else in the
• 12:04
  -response? -Yeah. Right. Yeah.
• 12:06
  It's it's a whole thing. And so I was I was poring through the... Saloon docs
• 12:13
  a while back for some stuff, and I saw in there that someone had written
• 12:18
  a Salesforce
• 12:21
  SDK using Saloon. I thought, "Great. I'm pulling that in immediately. I don't even
• 12:25
  have to read the doc, so I don't need to know any more about it. It's written with
• 12:28
  -Saloon, it's gonna be good." -Yep.
• 12:29
  And what that has
• 12:32
  enabled us to do, uh, obviously is to use Saloon under the hood, which makes testing
• 12:38
  so much better because we can use Saloon fake. We can say, "I'm expecting these
• 12:42
  res- requests to go out, I'm expecting these responses to come back." We can do
• 12:45
  Saloon fakes, we can... Like, you know, we can record fixtures-
• 12:48
  -So in the testing layer, you can, yeah- -In the testing layer
• 12:50
  ... record pictures and replay them back out.
• 12:51
  -Fantastic. -Mm-hmm. Yep.
• 12:52
  It has improved things a great deal to the point where like, "Okay, we're gonna
• 12:55
  replace this Forest library with the Saloon SDK." But as part of this, I've
• 13:00
  been doing some exploration, which is like, I guess three-fold into, how do we,
• 13:07
  how do we do this kind of stuff with, um, local development? Like, I don't-
• 13:13
  -Yeah, that's the question -... want to be handing out-
• 13:15
  -That is the big question. -I don't wanna be handing out keys to
• 13:17
  people to access Salesforce. Um, we, we spin up and spin down Salesforce
• 13:23
  test environments as needed. Like, we don't typically keep them around. So, you
• 13:27
  -might have- -Sure
• 13:27
  ... credentials to do something now, but that, that environment might be gone at
• 13:31
  some point in the future when you come back to it. Um, obviously we don't wanna
• 13:34
  test in production 'cause you end up littering your Salesforce instance with
• 13:38
  all of these test accounts and things like that. And so I, I started going down the
• 13:43
  path of, okay, what does this look like to actually create a fake? And you and I
• 13:49
  have spoken about this, as you said previously, where maybe you can just call
• 13:53
  Saloon fake inside a service provider somewhere and record some fixtures and do
• 13:57
  all this kind of stuff. And so this, this then led to my second point of ex-
• 14:01
  exploration, which was using AI. 'Cause yeah, I'm a big AI boy now, and I like to
• 14:08
  I like to play with stuff. So I've been using
• 14:11
  Claude and I've been, you know, with open code, which is from the SST guys, um, Dax
• 14:17
  and, and Adam who are part of the, the Terminal Coffee, uh, empire, um, have been
• 14:23
  building out this open code thing. Which is kind of like, it's like Claude Code.
• 14:27
  It's a, a Terminal application, but it allows you to hook into different
• 14:31
  providers and access different models through those providers. So we use GitHub
• 14:35
  Copilot, um, which means we can't use Claude as, as I understand it. Claude is
• 14:40
  to access the Anthropic, I think, the OpenAI, whichever it is, their Claude
• 14:45
  -service using their Claude- -Yeah
• 14:48
  ... CLI. And then I think Cursor's got one and, you know, all these other companies
• 14:51
  have got one. So what open code allows us to do is to authenticate against GitHub,
• 14:57
  and then we have access to whatever models we have access to inside of GitHub
• 15:01
  Copilot. So I can use Claude to then do this stuff. So I've been in-
• 15:04
  -Interesting -... planning mode. I spend like 45 minutes
• 15:06
  just going through, like, "I wanna do this, I wanna do this." Like, blah, blah,
• 15:09
  blah. You know, come up with whatever we wanna do. Switch to build mode and say,
• 15:13
  "Okay, now go build that." And so what I've been doing, and it's been literally
• 15:18
  days 'cause I'm like feeling my way through it. I'm not necessarily liking the
• 15:21
  output or it's, it's partially implementing things. So, you know, which I
• 15:26
  think anyone that's been using AI for any period of time knows that this is kind of
• 15:30
  the process. Treat it as a junior developer that you're pairing with, and
• 15:34
  that's typically how you're gonna go. So we have been building out a, a fake
• 15:39
  gateway,
• 15:41
  as you've done with Stripe, where
• 15:44
  in some instances, like if we wanna do a search for a contact or an account,
• 15:49
  there's like, here are the, here are the key phrases that you pass through. You
• 15:53
  know, search for Michael and you'll get like three results back that are like
• 15:56
  -Michael A, Michael B, Michael C. -Sure.
• 15:59
  If you search for Michael Dorinda, it will return a single result, Michael Dorinda.
• 16:03
  Um, and so we've done this. Uh, I, I reached out to Sam Curry, the author of
• 16:08
  Saloon, and I said, "What is the approach? Like, how do we do this?" And he said,
• 16:12
  "You know, there's a few people that have asked about this recently." And like a day
• 16:15
  after I'd asked about it, Alex Six from, um, Zillow who spoke at Arc on US,
• 16:20
  um, he, he had pinged Sam
• 16:23
  on X and was like, "Hey,
• 16:25
  is this possible?" And so, you know, we had this conversation about, yeah, we're
• 16:29
  exploring this at the moment. And what it essentially boils down to
• 16:33
  is hooking into Saloon's global middleware
• 16:37
  and, and putting our own handler in there that basically looks at, okay, is this
• 16:42
  enabled? Is our fake gateway enabled? So with an environment variable and a conf-
• 16:46
  uh, environment variable and a config switch, you know, if this is enabled-
• 16:50
  -Yeah, yeah -... everything should go through our
• 16:51
  -Salesforce mock handler. -Yeah.
• 16:53
  And then the, I've iterated on this a few times where I've landed with like this
• 16:58
  registry patent approach where we just register all of the, the response handlers
• 17:02
  we want. And each response class is then responsible for providing its own should
• 17:07
  handle method. And it will look at the pending request and say, "Okay, is this to
• 17:11
  an endpoint that I'm in of interest of?" And so we've got 20 or 30 of these at the
• 17:15
  moment, and it would just like spin through them all and go, "Okay, this is a
• 17:19
  post request to the contact standard object endpoint. I'm gonna intercept that
• 17:24
  request and I'm gonna return this response." And so we're then using Faker
• 17:30
  to just send back fake data. Um,
• 17:35
  and then where you can, you can seed Faker
• 17:39
  -with a, with a value, right? -Okay.
• 17:42
  So that you get deterministic
• 17:45
  fake data back. So what we do is take all of-
• 17:48
  -I never heard of this. -Okay. So deterministic data
• 17:50
  is where like you are, it's pseudo-random. Like it is random data, but it will
• 17:56
  always be the same random data based on that seed. So you pass it a number from
• 18:02
  like one to whatever the upper limit is that it supports, and then it will see the
• 18:06
  random number generator so that when you call Faker whatever,
• 18:11
  it-Internally, it will process that. You know, it'll go through its array of 50
• 18:16
  names, and if you've got a seed of 3, it will always return the seventh value from
• 18:21
  that list of 50 names for first name.
• 18:24
  And then the next time you call it, it will always return the same value and
• 18:27
  then... So then when you are developing things, if you search for Michael, you're
• 18:30
  going to get the same Michael back every single time on every single machine.
• 18:36
  -Because if you- -Interesting
• 18:37
  ... are searching for Michael and you get a different fake value back, you know, in
• 18:40
  the UI context, it doesn't make sense, you know?
• 18:43
  -Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. -But with deterministic seeding, it means,
• 18:45
  okay, here is, here is the value that I want to base all of my random data on, and
• 18:49
  it will always do that. So what we do is we look at the body of that pending
• 18:52
  request. We take all of the inputs,
• 18:55
  we join them together, and then PHP has this function called CRC32, which will
• 19:00
  take a string and it will compute an integer value that represents what that
• 19:05
  is. And then we pass that value into, um,
• 19:11
  into Faker's seed method
• 19:13
  so that we're always getting this data back. And so-
• 19:16
  -Interesting -... we've, we've now built out a fairly
• 19:19
  robust, um, implementation that will always give us, like, pseudo-random data,
• 19:26
  but in a consistent way. So, like, if we're searching for something, you know,
• 19:29
  we can, we can build our expectations on it, we can build tests on it 'cause we
• 19:33
  know that, like, the fake data won't change every time we run the test. We know
• 19:36
  that we're always gonna get the same set of data back. So we can actually write
• 19:40
  tests against all of these endpoints with the fake gateway enabled, knowing that
• 19:44
  we're gonna get back this specific data. That then extends-
• 19:47
  -So when you say you seed it, you're not- -Yes
• 19:49
  -... seeding a database. -We're not seeding a database, no.
• 19:51
  'Cause they're not models in your application.
• 19:53
  -No. -You're seeding the responses that are
• 19:55
  gonna come back from your mock handler for Salesforce.
• 19:58
  -Correct. Yeah. -Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:59
  -Uh-huh. -So it's basically like with Faker, you're
• 20:01
  almost creating... I mean, it's not a database, but it's almost a database
• 20:05
  because it's pseudo-random. I mean, it's deterministic, right? So you're-
• 20:08
  -Mm-hmm. -When I'm hearing you say, like, you're
• 20:09
  referencing, like, an ID, it's basically like you're referencing an ID in a
• 20:12
  database that actually does not exist because it's just seeded-
• 20:15
  -Correct. Yeah. -You know, seeded fake data, essentially.
• 20:18
  -So- -Wow. Yeah
• 20:18
  ... you could think of it almost as a
• 20:21
  sort of database, I suppose. I mean, it's not a database, but, like,
• 20:25
  same idea, right? Where it's deterministic, you can write tests against
• 20:28
  -it 'cause it's not gonna change. -Right.
• 20:30
  So it's almost seeded data, but you don't have models backing this stuff.
• 20:34
  -Correct. -So you have to use some other sort of
• 20:36
  -mechanism to do so. -Yeah.
• 20:37
  -Okay. -So you're, you're seeding the random
• 20:38
  number generator that PHP uses, which is using, like-
• 20:41
  -Yep. Yep, yep -... MT Rand or whatever under the hood.
• 20:43
  Yeah. MT... Like, it's a PHP function under the hood. So if you always want to
• 20:47
  get the... This is quoting from the Faker docs. "If you want to always get the same
• 20:52
  generated data, for instance, when using Faker for unit testing purposes, the
• 20:56
  generator offers a seed method which seeds the random number generator." And the
• 21:00
  crux of that is that calling the same script twice with the same seed produces
• 21:04
  the same results.
• 21:06
  -Interesting. Okay. -And this, and this-
• 21:09
  -Okay -... is then why it becomes helpful in, in
• 21:12
  the... Like, in a, in a UI context where if you are seeding based on the inputs, no
• 21:17
  matter what you put in there... Like, if I put Jake in there
• 21:20
  or I put Michael in there or I put Eric in there or I put Sam in there or whatever,
• 21:25
  as long as the inputs match, you will always get the same results back, which
• 21:29
  makes the testing a bit more predictable. If you hand that off to a QA team or, you
• 21:33
  know, for testing, or manual whatever, you know that you, that it's... Like, it's
• 21:38
  not gonna make people stop and think, "Wait, what happened there? 'Cause I got
• 21:41
  two different results back." It's like, no, if I search for Jake-
• 21:43
  -Yeah, I guess, yeah -... the same set of results come back.
• 21:46
  Right. So it's like you only... The only benefit that you lose of fake data is that
• 21:53
  the randomness of it is sometimes a bit of a fuzz test against, you know, can your
• 21:58
  code handle values that are not typical sort of deal?
• 22:02
  -Yeah. -Right?
• 22:02
  -Yeah. -And so that, that's part of the idea of,
• 22:05
  like, Faker, which is like, "Hey, it should be able to generate any value and
• 22:07
  it should always work." But it's like, there are other considerations to be made
• 22:11
  too, and so you're just making a trade-off. You're saying, "Well, we're
• 22:14
  okay with losing some of the benefit of that randomness for the predictability of
• 22:17
  having deterministic values that are getting seeded in here," and for all the
• 22:20
  other me- reasons you mentioned. Interesting.
• 22:22
  -Yeah. -I've never actually heard of this, so
• 22:23
  -I'll, I'll check into that. -Yeah.
• 22:24
  -That sounds really cool. -And so in, in the context of, like,
• 22:28
  actually opening up the application in the browser and, like, using it, I think it
• 22:33
  -makes- -Yeah, yeah
• 22:33
  ... much more sense than having totally random data.
• 22:35
  -Mm-hmm. -Because if you think about it, if I'm, if
• 22:38
  I'm hitting Salesforce and searching for Jake, well, I expect-
• 22:41
  -Yeah -... Jake's data to always come back. I
• 22:42
  -wanna see- -Absolutely, yeah
• 22:43
  ... the same results. And so that's where this comes in. And, like, this stuff has
• 22:47
  been in Faker, I don't know, since forever. And the reason that, like, I'm,
• 22:51
  I, I know this fancy word, deterministic, is 'cause I built this, um, avatar
• 22:56
  generator for Laracon AU, where I wanted it to be random, but I wanted it to always
• 23:01
  be the same for a given input. So if I'm gonna generate an image-
• 23:06
  Yeah, it's, it's almost like functional, right? I mean, it's f- it's almost like
• 23:08
  functional programming where it's like given the same inputs, you should expect
• 23:11
  -to get the same outputs every time. Yeah. -Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:14
  Um, and so, yeah, that, that, that has worked really well in that context and
• 23:18
  provides us, like, much more useful output. I'm, I'm not sure... I still need
• 23:23
  to do a little bit of finagling to make sure that I'm actually happy with
• 23:28
  -what has been built. Because- -Yeah
• 23:30
  ... largely it has been just, like, driving the AI and letting it come up-
• 23:33
  -Yep, yep -... with stuff and fixing things as they
• 23:35
  come. But it's, it's been pretty good in terms of
• 23:38
  building the code,
• 23:39
  finding problems. Like, I've got it into this loop now where we put into our Claude
• 23:43
  file,
• 23:44
  um,
• 23:45
  you know, make sure that you always run PHP unit on the test. Make sure you always
• 23:49
  run CS Fixer. Make sure you always run Stan, so if you've introduced any
• 23:52
  violations, like, it'll go back and fix those things as well, which has been very
• 23:56
  helpful. Um, so I think the, the code is robust. I think the, the... Then the third
• 24:01
  exploration is, okay, we've built
• 24:04
  this thing. Is this something that we can... I don't know if we can package it
• 24:09
  up or if we produce a set of guidelines or something that go, "Okay, now for the
• 24:13
  other things that we want it to have..."... mock gateways for. You know,
• 24:18
  for a lender integration with a bank or for a provider of, like, you know, Equifax
• 24:23
  or something like that where we're doing these lookups. Well, we- we want the- the
• 24:26
  same data to always come back, but we don't wanna hit Equifax 'cause that cost
• 24:29
  -money every time you do that. -Again, and it will... And like you said,
• 24:31
  it's deterministic in a sense. You don't have to spin up an Equifax-
• 24:34
  -Right -... non-production environment sort of
• 24:35
  -deal. -Correct.
• 24:36
  Like, it's like you just get all those benefits that you're talking about. Now,
• 24:40
  there are, you know, there does end up being some drawbacks, but, I mean, you
• 24:44
  know, there's drawbacks with the current approach. So you just have to... It's the
• 24:47
  -trade-off, right? -Yeah.
• 24:48
  -Um, you know. -So in- in our tests, right, in our tests,
• 24:51
  we would still want to- to do this kind of stuff with actual fake data. And that's
• 24:57
  where we'd dip into the Saloon fakes, and we would use our fixtures and all of that
• 25:00
  kinda stuff. In terms of actually using it
• 25:05
  -by hand- -Yeah, yeah
• 25:06
  ... in the browser, yeah. Then, but- so then the exploration was, okay, how do I
• 25:10
  build this
• 25:12
  infrastructure
• 25:13
  where I've got, like, a config file? Okay, okay, here is Salesforce, but now here is
• 25:18
  Equifax, here is bank A, here is bank B, here is lender A, all of these kinda
• 25:23
  things. And I just configure them in there, and they'll register themselves,
• 25:28
  and then they'll find, you know, okay, this is the thing that needs to hit this.
• 25:31
  And it all goes into Saloon's global middleware and whatever needs to- to deal
• 25:35
  with any given request. And we can build these over time. So I think I'm happy
• 25:39
  enough with it that I think that it will work,
• 25:42
  and it seems to cover all of the scenarios that exist currently
• 25:46
  until we start using it in practice and figuring out, okay, how do we
• 25:53
  create the next gateway, the next mock, the next mock, you know, and actually
• 25:57
  using it. That will be the determining factor about if this approach is actually
• 26:04
  robust enough to be that flexible across the board, so.
• 26:07
  -Yeah, yeah. -We'll see. We- we might revisit that in a,
• 26:10
  in a few episodes and see if we've made any progress on it.
• 26:14
  Yeah, it's like you're trying to look into the crystal ball and determine what the
• 26:17
  -future's gonna hold, right? It's like- -Yeah.
• 26:19
  It's- it's so funny, like, I... We talked to... We talked to the dev team about
• 26:24
  this, and they're totally on board with that- that approach where it's like
• 26:26
  sometimes you just gotta ship it and see. You know what I mean? Like, just- just
• 26:29
  push the button and, like, you're not gonna have the final answer. But, like,
• 26:33
  we're not building pianos here. Like, we can go in and change the code. Like, it's
• 26:37
  not a big deal. You know what I mean? It's like it doesn't have to be perfect the
• 26:40
  first time. It just has to be good enough that it's not gonna break everything. And
• 26:44
  if it's good enough, then it's like you can make modifications as you go, right?
• 26:48
  Um, but trying to make predictions about how it's going to be used everywhere, it's
• 26:51
  just impossible. And I feel like my IT team, they are on that train. They're
• 26:55
  like, "We have to have all the variables solved before we push the button." It's
• 26:58
  -like, you don't. -Mm-hmm.
• 26:59
  -You don't. -Mm-hmm.
• 27:00
  You just need to have enough information to make a good decision and then push it
• 27:04
  and see what happens and then learn and move from there. But you can make
• 27:07
  decisions and make changes a lot faster that way than you can hemming and hawing
• 27:11
  and waiting around and trying to get the perfect answer. And it's like you won't
• 27:14
  have the perfect answer until you actually start moving, then you're gonna figure it
• 27:17
  out. So, um, but the other part I was gonna say is, like, this registration
• 27:22
  piece that you're talking about where, like, you're registering all the different
• 27:26
  responses and things like that. And I'm sure you'll find a way to organize this
• 27:29
  well, but, like, right now, two things. Number 1, they're probably tied to actual
• 27:33
  -endpoints, I'm guessing. -Yeah, so the... Each response has its own
• 27:39
  should-handle method, and it gets past the- the pending request object. So it
• 27:44
  goes and looks like it... You c- 'cause then you've got access to the request
• 27:47
  itself, and you can figure out, do I need to intercept this or not? And
• 27:52
  depending on what it is, you know, sometimes it's- it's enough to just look
• 27:56
  at
• 27:57
  the endpoint. Sometimes we wanna look at the endpoint and the body and go...
• 28:03
  Because then we've got for authentication, for example, we've got an email, like a
• 28:08
  specific email address for a successful login. We've got a specific email address
• 28:12
  for a failed login, a specific email address for, like, a- an account that
• 28:16
  doesn't exist, like all of these kind of things. So some of it gets a bit grim. Um,
• 28:21
  some of these methods have got some
• 28:25
  creative regexes that Claude has written in there.
• 28:28
  -Yeah. -Which may or may not be the most
• 28:30
  -appropriate course of action. -Yeah.
• 28:31
  But you... I mean, in- within the context of each of those response classes, you can
• 28:36
  do whatever you want to determine if it should be handled.
• 28:39
  Yeah. And so I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out is, like, how do you
• 28:41
  co-locate the code that's going to be handling or that's gonna be responsible
• 28:44
  for figuring all that out? And I'm sure it's, like, you can have, like, some class
• 28:48
  double, you know, dot op generate or a class dot op register handlers or
• 28:52
  something like that, where you can kind of just say, like-
• 28:54
  -Right -... for this particular type of response,
• 28:56
  we're gonna have a class named this that's going to be, you know, by convention,
• 29:00
  it's gonna match the naming like this, but it's gonna be called, you know, blah,
• 29:03
  blah, blah, response register handlers class.
• 29:05
  -Yeah. Yeah. -And then, you know, you just call that,
• 29:07
  -and there you go. And, and so you can- -Yeah
• 29:09
  ... break it up so it's not like some massive
• 29:12
  just config file, essentially. You know, there's actually some testability even
• 29:16
  around your- your registrations and things like that, if you needed it to be as, uh,
• 29:20
  -as sophisticated as that. But- -Yeah.
• 29:22
  -Maybe not. -At- at the moment, this, like, registry
• 29:25
  that we have, it just, like, you
• 29:29
  pass it a, a namespaced path, like app/gateway/sales floor-
• 29:35
  salesforce/fake/responses, right? And it will go and look in there, and it will
• 29:40
  look through... Like, it just looks through all of the files in there. And if,
• 29:45
  if it's a non-abstract class and it implements an interface that we've got on
• 29:48
  there, it will then register it
• 29:51
  as a, as a handler. And then it will... And then the
• 29:55
  Saloon is then responsible for passing all of those
• 29:58
  things through and figuring out, should I be intercepting this request? So it is-
• 30:02
  -Mm-hmm, mm-hmm -... it has been done in such a way where,
• 30:04
  like, the registry will go and just, like, discover all of these things
• 30:08
  automatically and then just slot them in there. So definitely don't run it in
• 30:12
  -production. -Right, right.
• 30:14
  Because you could be registering, like, you know...... dozens to hundreds of
• 30:18
  classes for all of your Saloon implementations. Um, but locally, like, it
• 30:22
  doesn't matter too much. Our machines are so overpowered and over-provisioned that-
• 30:26
  Totally
• 30:26
  ... having this do it. No, and especially if you're just enabling them one by one.
• 30:30
  So there's, like, the top level
• 30:33
  is this thing that spins through the config and then registers all the
• 30:35
  handlers, and then each handler is responsible for then going and registering
• 30:39
  all of its responses. So if you've got them all disabled, it'll just spin through
• 30:42
  that top level four or five or ten or however many integrations you've got
• 30:45
  fairly quickly, and it'll just do nothing. Like, we just filter them out of the
• 30:48
  collection.
• 30:49
  -So- -Yes
• 30:50
  ... I would like to share some code in time once I've-
• 30:53
  -Yeah, absolutely -... you know, happy that it is, it is
• 30:55
  actually a sensible approach. But, you know, early indications, um,
• 31:00
  with, like, just the Salesforce
• 31:03
  mock, uh, seems to be good. The proof will be in the pudding of whether or not it
• 31:09
  actually extends to other handlers. And I've been trying to kind of guide the AI
• 31:14
  to make sure that this is extensible. And anytime we start duplicating things, it's
• 31:18
  like, "Okay, let's pull this out, let's hoist this up to the top-level namespace,
• 31:21
  let's, you know, make sure this is all possible." 'Cause it is something that is,
• 31:25
  in my mind, that, like, we need to be able to do this. So, I think the, the main
• 31:29
  thing is just... Salesforce is a very
• 31:34
  large thing. Like, there's a big surface area of things that you can do. And so
• 31:40
  there's lots of overlap to the same endpoints. But when you've got discrete
• 31:43
  endpoints, it's much easier to have, like, a common thing that just, like, injects
• 31:47
  fake data based on the request kind of thing, so. I, I, I feel good about it, but
• 31:54
  I'm still, um, cautious about
• 31:59
  how well that works as we start integrating more. So we'll see how that
• 32:02
  -goes in time. -That's exciting, dude. Yeah, I'm excited
• 32:06
  to hear about that. That's, um, that sounds really cool. Uh, yeah, so we'll
• 32:10
  follow up on that in future shows. A couple of things I wanted to share real
• 32:13
  quick before we wrap this one up. Bond is a new thing by Filip
• 32:19
  Gagnik, Gagniks. I don't know how to say his last name. Anyway, he's a Livewire and
• 32:25
  Alpine dude, and he just released this library, Bond, uh, which is this
• 32:31
  interesting way
• 32:33
  to
• 32:34
  give you essentially, like, fully reactive, optimistic UIs on the front end
• 32:39
  that are also Livewire-aware. So you get the best of front-ends, like with
• 32:46
  modern JavaScript tooling, like being able to do includes and things like that,
• 32:50
  um, and bundling and
• 32:53
  all those, all those pieces,
• 32:55
  and then also all the benefits of Livewire. And so in his demo, that he put
• 33:01
  out a video today about this,
• 33:03
  um, he goes through and shows with this counter component, it's fully reactive,
• 33:08
  and it's like he can plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus on this counter.
• 33:11
  And then in the bottom he has like, "Here's what the Livewire server rendered
• 33:14
  -value is." And you can see- -Hm
• 33:16
  ... that on the front end he's able to click it as fast as he wants and the front
• 33:19
  end stays reactive and it doesn't make those back-end calls, and then it sort of,
• 33:22
  like, lazily updates that background, that background, um, amount. And then when
• 33:27
  it makes a round trip, it ends up updating that, that thing on the front end
• 33:31
  as well. Um, but your front end allows you to continue to go just as fast as the
• 33:37
  browser front end will allow you to, as long
• 33:39
  -Yeah -... as long as the, you know, user's
• 33:40
  machine is able to catch up or, you know, keep up with your JavaScript, uh, front
• 33:44
  end interactions. It will take care of sort of eventually syncing in the back end
• 33:48
  -which is really, really cool. -Mm-hmm.
• 33:50
  We've needed this in a couple projects, and, um, he's got some, uh... It's just
• 33:56
  very interesting. It's got TypeScript support, um,
• 34:00
  -super, super cool. -Interesting.
• 34:01
  -So Vite basically will pull out- -Do you wanna-
• 34:03
  -Go ahead. -You'll have to send me a link so I can put
• 34:05
  -it in the show notes. -Yeah.
• 34:06
  -It sounds interesting. -Yeah, absolutely, I will. And I'll, I'll
• 34:08
  send you the, uh, the video that he made here.
• 34:10
  -Mm-hmm. -It's really, really good. Uh, Wilbur
• 34:12
  Powery, uh, talked about it, um, today in our, in our dev chat. So there's the video
• 34:18
  and then I will send you the open source repo as well. Both look really, really
• 34:22
  cool. It's a nine-minute video. You should definitely check it out. Really well
• 34:26
  done. Uh, he seems like he, he essentially manuscripted his video that he was gonna
• 34:30
  do. It's, it's nine minutes and it's just pure code. Like-
• 34:34
  -Nice. -... doesn't stumble over one word. It's so
• 34:37
  well rehearsed. It's the best video on a new thing that I've seen people, you know,
• 34:41
  started to put out in a while. It's really, really good. So
• 34:44
  shout out, Philip. Good job. Secondly, uh, we've been talking about our journey, uh,
• 34:49
  at our company of restructuring a lot of our roles and permissions and things like
• 34:53
  -that. -Mm-hmm.
• 34:54
  And how we've sort of split the responsibilities between, uh, basically
• 34:59
  saying our application's only responsibility is to check permissions
• 35:02
  -with gate checks. -Yes.
• 35:04
  And then what we've done is we have bound those particular abilities to AD groups.
• 35:10
  And we've done that using... In AD, I mean active directory. We've done that using,
• 35:15
  uh, enums and enum attributes, which I swear is one of the most productive secret
• 35:21
  ninja combinations ever. Enums with attributes is just-
• 35:25
  -Mm-hmm -... awesome. It's so cool. Um, it allows
• 35:28
  you to have, like, type safety and also to bind additional pieces of information
• 35:33
  directly next to enums, which I just absolutely love. So really, really cool
• 35:37
  combination. I'm liking that. And I feel like we've arrived at some conclusions,
• 35:41
  um, about how we've found to best structure some of those things,
• 35:46
  specifically regarding, like, departments, job titles, and stuff like that. So, um,
• 35:50
  I'm interested to share some of those maybe in a couple weeks and-
• 35:53
  -Mm-hmm -... talk about that and some of the
• 35:55
  discoveries we've made, and maybe talk about this Bond thing too. We are-
• 35:58
  -Yeah -... right now in the process of creating a
• 36:02
  two-way interactive texting experience through SMS. So people who wanna get hold
• 36:07
  of our agents, they can do so through SMS. We're using Twilio Conversations.
• 36:12
  But...... we're pulling a lot of the Twilio Conversation stuff local. We're
• 36:16
  -saving records on our side. -Mm-hmm.
• 36:19
  Um, Twilio's, like, the source of truth, but we'll pull those down to our side, so
• 36:21
  we have database records then can- can basically enrich that data with our own
• 36:25
  data. Um, and we're using a LiveWire front end. We're building on a LiveWire front
• 36:28
  end, which is great, but this idea of, like, the optimistic UI is very
• 36:33
  -attractive- -Mm-hmm. Yeah
• 36:34
  ... because sometimes it does, it can feel a little bit laggy. You know what I mean?
• 36:36
  If you're doing, like, high volume interactions back and forth, or you're
• 36:40
  trying to say, like, "Who's..." You know, "Which one of our team members is
• 36:43
  currently in this conversation?" How are we able to, you know, using presence
• 36:46
  channels or some of those things. Sometimes it can feel a little bit laggy,
• 36:48
  or notifications if a new thing comes in. You know, you have to kind of loop over-
• 36:51
  -Yeah -... a bunch of stuff in the background.
• 36:52
  Anyway, um, I'm interested to see if this is something we can start using and, um,
• 36:57
  since Wilbur Power is the lead on that project, and he's the one who discovered
• 37:00
  this library, I'm interested to see if this is something we might actually use in
• 37:03
  the next couple of weeks as well. So, looking forward to that in the next show,
• 37:08
  -I suppose. -Yeah. Yeah, so, um, Ash Allen, I think it
• 37:12
  was, tweeted something out about putting methods on enums.
• 37:17
  -Okay. Yeah, yeah. -Um, to, like, to- to return a label for
• 37:20
  something. Because, you know, your cases and your names don't always match up with
• 37:24
  what or how you wanna present that to the user, so he was talking about, you know,
• 37:27
  having a ToLabel method for things that would then return
• 37:31
  something that you could just put into your UI as opposed to what you're storing
• 37:34
  in the database. And then someone had put- mentioned in there that, yeah, you can
• 37:38
  create attributes here that target, um, like, the constants but, you know, enum
• 37:43
  members in that case, where you could put like a pound square bracket label
• 37:48
  whatever, and then you've got labels available through that as well. So, I
• 37:53
  think that's a, a, a, as you say, a really powerful combination and it gives you a
• 37:57
  lot of flexibility
• 37:59
  across enums, not just... Like, I don't have to create an, you know, a label
• 38:02
  method here or ToLabel and then a map and then, you know, match the value to
• 38:06
  whatever. You can just put it straight there on the, um,
• 38:11
  on the- the enum member itself, and then you can do it on a case by case basis.
• 38:15
  Like, you would expose the label method directly and would say, like, "Hey, is
• 38:18
  there an attribute here?" or return the value of the attribute. Otherwise, you
• 38:21
  might do, like, a string snake or a string title or whatever it is to, you know,
• 38:26
  have some fallback where you wanna do it that way. So, yeah, I- I-
• 38:30
  -Yep. Yep. Really, really powerful combo. -I do- I do think enums and attributes go
• 38:34
  -together like lamb and tuna fish. -Yeah. Lamb and tuna fish. I've not heard
• 38:38
  that. That is a new one on me, and, uh, I love it. I- I will add it to my list-
• 38:44
  -Pretty sure it was from Big Daddy -... of things that I tell my friends.
• 38:47
  -I- I will tell my friends when- -Big Daddy originals
• 38:48
  ... when we talk about Australian colloquialisms. So this is not a, this is
• 38:51
  not an Australian thing? Lamb and tuna fish?
• 38:53
  -No. -Oh.
• 38:54
  Lamb and tuna fish was a, it was a character... Uh, it was Big Daddy. It was
• 38:58
  a character that, um,
• 39:01
  -uh, Rob Schneider played in that movie. -Okay, okay.
• 39:03
  Where he was... Yeah, he was, he played, like, you know, as Rob Schneider did back
• 39:06
  then, he played like a foreign, non- nondescript-
• 39:09
  -Sure -... foreign character. And he, yeah-
• 39:11
  -It's hilarious. -I'll put a link in the show notes.
• 39:13
  All right, I'll have to check it out. Hey, what episode are we on? 182?
• 39:17
  -That's right. -182, folks. Thanks so much for hanging out
• 39:20
  with us. You can find show notes for this episode at northmeetsouth.audio/182. Hit
• 39:24
  us up on
• 39:26
  X or on BlueSky at jacobbennett and michaeldrinda, or at North Meets... Or,
• 39:30
  North South Audio. And of course, if you liked the show we would really appreciate
• 39:33
  it if you'd rate it up in your podcatcher of choice. Five stars would be incredible.
• 39:36
  Thanks, folks. Until next time, we will see you. Bye-bye.
• 39:40
  Bye.