Latest / The Observatory | Discovery of Consciousness & Awareness / The Code Word 'Trauma' | Scott and LaRae's Guide to Healing from Trauma revisited

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The Code Word 'Trauma' | Scott and LaRae's Guide to Healing from Trauma revisited · The Observatory | Discovery of Consciousness & Awareness

0:03
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Observatory Podcast.
0:05
Speaker 2: With your hosts, Scott and LaRae Wright.
0:08
Speaker 1: Join us each week as we explore living life from
0:11
Speaker 1: the inside out. Welcome back to the Observatory Podcast. Today,
0:20
Speaker 1: Rae and I are going to sit down together and
0:22
Speaker 1: have some conversations about the code word is trauma, but
0:29
Speaker 1: it's not really trauma. We're going to hide it. try
0:32
Speaker 1: to lighten that word up a little bit, discuss some
0:35
Speaker 1: of the things and experiences we've had in our lives,
0:39
Speaker 1: and kind of open up an opportunity for maybe a
0:42
Speaker 1: new series to unfold where we're having conversations together on
0:47
Speaker 1: a monthly basis. Ray is in the middle of a
0:52
Speaker 1: modality called Compassionate Inquiry with Gabor Mate, and she's able to,
0:58
Speaker 1: through that experience, really gain some powerful insights about herself
1:03
Speaker 1: and our relationship and other things that we're doing together.
1:06
Speaker 1: And we've been having some cool experiences lately we're going
1:08
Speaker 1: to discuss. So we invite you to sit back, relax,
1:11
Speaker 1: and enjoy this conversation on the Observatory Podcast. Welcome back
1:17
Speaker 1: to the Observatory Podcast. Ray and I are sitting in
1:20
Speaker 1: our home on this beautiful Monday morning starting out the week.
1:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a beautiful day.
1:26
Speaker 1: The weather's starting to turn.
1:30
Speaker 2: Oh, thank goodness.
1:31
Speaker 1: Coolness in the evenings finally in early August here. Mid-August,
1:35
Speaker 1: I guess it is now. And we returned from a
1:39
Speaker 1: trip home.
1:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, we took a quick trip north.
1:43
Speaker 1: One day up and back to our home is in
1:45
Speaker 1: the Bear Lake Valley of Idaho. And we stopped through
1:50
Speaker 1: one of our favorite places on the way back in
1:52
Speaker 1: Brigham City and got some fresh peaches.
1:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, those Utah peaches. This time of year, nothing better.
1:59
Speaker 2: It was so good.
2:00
Speaker 1: We had peaches and raspberries, which the Bear Lake Valley
2:03
Speaker 1: is also famous for raspberries. So we had raspberries and
2:06
Speaker 1: peaches this morning.
2:07
Speaker 2: I know, with cream. So we're living the large life.
2:10
Speaker 2: It was delicious.
2:11
Speaker 1: I love this time of year. We're moving out of
2:14
Speaker 1: summer and into autumn. And as we traveled up to
2:19
Speaker 1: our home, we had the opportunity to spend some time
2:23
Speaker 1: with one of my siblings there and also one of
2:26
Speaker 1: Ray's siblings. We went to breakfast with her. brother and
2:30
Speaker 1: we stayed with my brother who has a home up
2:32
Speaker 1: there and, uh, got a chance to visit and talk
2:37
Speaker 1: about things that we just talk about, right? Life and
2:42
Speaker 1: memories and all of the things. And, uh, it kind
2:45
Speaker 1: of led us into, uh, uh, something that we've been
2:51
Speaker 1: kind of working on each of us individually in our
2:54
Speaker 1: own lives. And that is, uh, things that we've been bringing,
2:58
Speaker 1: things that have kind of just shown up from our childhood, right?
3:02
Speaker 1: For me, I'm going to just talk about my experience,
3:05
Speaker 1: things that I haven't really thought about in years and
3:08
Speaker 1: years and years. And I wouldn't call it childhood trauma,
3:11
Speaker 1: but that's kind of the word that gets thrown about
3:15
Speaker 1: out there, right? Right.
3:17
Speaker 2: Well, you know, speaking of seasons, I'd like to look
3:20
Speaker 2: at it like it's a season, right? Events that happen
3:24
Speaker 2: in our life when we're young, And how we adapt
3:27
Speaker 2: to those and how that adaptation creates patterns in our life.
3:32
Speaker 2: And at some point it served us.
3:34
Speaker 1: Yeah.
3:35
Speaker 2: We made it, we gave it meaning. And then it's
3:40
Speaker 2: what we have found is now in our life, we're
3:43
Speaker 2: revisiting a lot of those patterns. We've become really curious
3:46
Speaker 2: about the pattern. And whether or not the pattern, we're
3:51
Speaker 2: ready for it not to serve us or it's just
3:54
Speaker 2: the question, right? Right. does it serve me or why
3:57
Speaker 2: am I this way? And so some of that has
3:59
Speaker 2: come up because as we've looked at and kind of
4:03
Speaker 2: wanted things to shift in our world, the first step
4:07
Speaker 2: is becoming aware of the patterns that we have that
4:10
Speaker 2: keep us from those shifts. Right.
4:14
Speaker 1: The places we kind of get stuck. Right.
4:16
Speaker 2: And without even knowing that we're stuck, right? Yeah.
4:18
Speaker 1: Or not even being aware that there's something stuck. Right.
4:22
Speaker 2: So it's that awareness and it is like a season,
4:24
Speaker 2: you know, and, You become curious about it. So we've
4:28
Speaker 2: just had these really beautiful conversations lately because there are
4:32
Speaker 2: things that are coming up that's an invitation to see
4:34
Speaker 2: it differently. Yeah.
4:37
Speaker 1: The metaphor that makes sense to me that I like
4:40
Speaker 1: to look at is, you know, we've got this creation
4:43
Speaker 1: that we've come up with as humanity called the computer.
4:48
Speaker 1: And computers are really just a mirror reflection of who
4:53
Speaker 1: we are. It's just information, right? And that's what we are.
4:56
Speaker 1: And you put different kinds of software into a computer
5:00
Speaker 1: to have it do different kinds of things, and you
5:02
Speaker 1: get to determine what all of that is. But as
5:06
Speaker 1: human beings, our software gets downloaded and gets put into
5:11
Speaker 1: our operating system in the early years of our lives.
5:16
Speaker 1: And sometimes we're aware of it, and sometimes we're not
5:19
Speaker 1: aware of it. And we talk about it as, quote-unquote,
5:22
Speaker 1: like we just mentioned, childhood trauma. But it's also the
5:27
Speaker 1: culture of how you grew up, where you grew up,
5:30
Speaker 1: what kind of an environment you were in, whether it
5:35
Speaker 1: had religion as part of it, what political party was there,
5:40
Speaker 1: whether you lived in the city or the country, or
5:42
Speaker 1: whether you lived in the desert or the mountains. All
5:45
Speaker 1: of those things are kind of the software programs that
5:47
Speaker 1: determine our perspective of how we're going to view life
5:53
Speaker 1: through that software. program which downloaded in the beginning.
5:57
Speaker 2: Right and even within a family you know we both
6:02
Speaker 2: come from large families so we'll talk but that we've
6:07
Speaker 2: you know we really understand that no one experiences childhood
6:10
Speaker 2: the same even though you're all raised by the same
6:13
Speaker 2: parents and in the same home everyone's experience is very
6:16
Speaker 2: different there's a lot of external factors you know the
6:21
Speaker 2: which number of child you are when you come into
6:24
Speaker 2: the family the economics of the family, the age of
6:27
Speaker 2: the parents, the age of the siblings, the circumstances that's
6:30
Speaker 2: happening in that time, your personality, there's just a lot
6:34
Speaker 2: of factors that really attribute that no two children raised
6:40
Speaker 2: in the same family have the same childhood. And so
6:43
Speaker 2: it's not to make anything right or wrong, your experience
6:46
Speaker 2: better than my experience. It's just to acknowledge that those
6:50
Speaker 2: experiences are different for a reason. And the reason is
6:53
Speaker 2: because of you. Right. You're the one that's translating the
6:57
Speaker 2: events and the experiences in the family, and you're the
7:00
Speaker 2: one that's giving meaning to those. And so that meaning,
7:06
Speaker 2: trauma is really, we can have traumatic events, but trauma
7:13
Speaker 2: is not the event as much as it is the
7:16
Speaker 2: experience or the result of how you dealt with that
7:20
Speaker 2: external event.
7:20
Speaker 1: Your reaction to it.
7:21
Speaker 2: What you made meaning for it and what happened in
7:23
Speaker 2: the body. So there can be a lot of somatic
7:28
Speaker 2: depth to it and that's where it feels stuck because
7:34
Speaker 2: there's a lot of experience and experience is more of
7:36
Speaker 2: a somatic, right? That feeling, that feeling is more of
7:40
Speaker 2: a somatic experience in your body rather than an intellectual
7:44
Speaker 2: experience that you have to process through your feelings or
7:47
Speaker 2: through your thinking. You have to process it through your
7:50
Speaker 2: feeling and we, we stuff those feelings.
7:53
Speaker 1: I think for a lot of years, I don't ever
7:55
Speaker 1: remember anything like this being taught to me that it
7:59
Speaker 1: was stuck somewhere in my body in a somatic way.
8:03
Speaker 1: It was always in my head somewhere. It was stored
8:06
Speaker 1: in some back reaches of my brain somewhere, which the
8:13
Speaker 1: way the research is being done now, especially you've been
8:17
Speaker 1: working with Gabor Mate and the compassionate inquiry work, And
8:23
Speaker 1: that's what they're talking about all the time. And you've
8:26
Speaker 1: got to not only experience it as the information that
8:31
Speaker 1: they're giving, but actually having experiences of your own of
8:34
Speaker 1: feeling it in your body.
8:35
Speaker 2: Right, applying it. And it's really opened my eyes to,
8:40
Speaker 2: first of all, my understanding of trauma, right? Because I
8:43
Speaker 2: kept thinking, well, I don't really have big traumatic events
8:46
Speaker 2: in my life, which thank goodness I don't have large
8:50
Speaker 2: traumatic events. I have a couple, but not ongoing. But
8:55
Speaker 2: I do have a lot of things that I adapted to.
8:57
Speaker 2: And everyone has those. That is part of living. No
9:03
Speaker 2: one doesn't have them. And so it's just whether or
9:06
Speaker 2: not you become curious about them.
9:08
Speaker 1: And do you call them traumatic events or not? Because
9:12
Speaker 1: your interaction with it is going to say this was
9:16
Speaker 1: traumatic or this wasn't traumatic. I mean, you lost your
9:18
Speaker 1: mom in that car accident when you were 27 years old.
9:22
Speaker 2: Right, and I would call that a big traumatic event.
9:24
Speaker 1: Yeah.
9:26
Speaker 2: And that is something that I've seen all seven of
9:28
Speaker 2: the children and my father, we all process very differently.
9:32
Speaker 2: And even though we shared that event, the experience and
9:36
Speaker 2: the relationship that each of us have to that event
9:39
Speaker 2: have differences and similarities, but they are each of us
9:43
Speaker 2: uniquely different as to what we made that mean.
9:46
Speaker 1: Do you think that that event... shaped your life differently
9:52
Speaker 1: than it would have been subsequent. Does that make sense?
9:57
Speaker 2: Oh, I definitely think that it shaped my life differently. I,
10:00
Speaker 2: see a lot of things from that event. Well, you've
10:03
Speaker 2: got to remember, I had a totally different physical experience
10:07
Speaker 2: with it because I was in the car. I was
10:10
Speaker 2: tremendously injured. None of the others had that aspect of
10:13
Speaker 2: the event. And there were aspects of the emotional side
10:18
Speaker 2: of the event that that i missed i didn't attend
10:21
Speaker 2: the funeral i didn't have those final goodbyes um so
10:25
Speaker 2: there you weren't.
10:26
Speaker 1: Aware until a day or two later that your mother
10:28
Speaker 1: had actually passed.
10:29
Speaker 2: Away about a day later uh or even maybe that
10:33
Speaker 2: night um.
10:35
Speaker 1: You know mostly due to the fact that you were
10:37
Speaker 1: just not even really coherent right.
10:39
Speaker 2: Right i you know i was fighting to live i
10:41
Speaker 2: kept asking where she was but um But everyone got
10:45
Speaker 2: that message right away that she had passed and that
10:48
Speaker 2: the accident had happened. But if you look at what
10:53
Speaker 2: that meant, okay, that's a defining moment. An event happened,
10:58
Speaker 2: and from that day forward, everyone's story changed based on
11:03
Speaker 2: how they scripted that event and what it meant for them.
11:08
Speaker 2: So I look at my sisters and my brother and
11:11
Speaker 2: my father, And all of them were at different places
11:14
Speaker 2: in their life.
11:15
Speaker 1: Different seasons, right?
11:17
Speaker 2: Different seasons. Some had really small children. Some had some
11:20
Speaker 2: older and some younger children. And so some were unmarried
11:25
Speaker 2: and single. My youngest sister was 19. So there was
11:30
Speaker 2: a lot of life events that hadn't started for her.
11:33
Speaker 2: A lot of my other sisters were married and had children.
11:36
Speaker 2: So all of that background came in and contributed to
11:42
Speaker 2: this new event that just happened, and what it was
11:45
Speaker 2: going to mean for them. And so when we make meaning,
11:49
Speaker 2: that's where the traumatic event is one thing, because that
11:54
Speaker 2: is the one thing that is similar for all of us.
11:56
Speaker 2: The event, regardless of how you describe it, happened exactly
12:01
Speaker 2: the same for all of us. But how we then
12:04
Speaker 2: took that event, what we gave meaning to, what we
12:10
Speaker 2: fixated on, if you would, then that's where trauma comes
12:14
Speaker 2: in because there's a first aspect of trauma is where
12:17
Speaker 2: you respond to certain things with real rigidity and you
12:23
Speaker 2: don't become flexible. And so all of a sudden you
12:27
Speaker 2: program yourself to say, wow, this feels like this. I'm
12:30
Speaker 2: never going to feel this way again.
12:32
Speaker 1: This was my experience and I'm going to go back
12:35
Speaker 1: to this feeling every time I have the memory of it. Right.
12:38
Speaker 2: So like, oh, this feels really painful too. have someone pass.
12:43
Speaker 2: And now every time I talk about dying or death,
12:48
Speaker 2: I'm going to remember this moment and how bad it feels,
12:50
Speaker 2: for example. Or like, you know, seeing a cop car
12:57
Speaker 2: or however anyone heard, I don't think this was the situation,
13:00
Speaker 2: but perhaps a cop came to the door. That didn't
13:03
Speaker 2: happen for us. But now whenever I see a cop
13:07
Speaker 2: car coming, I'm going to have that memory. I'm going
13:09
Speaker 2: to feel that memory. So The first aspect of trauma
13:12
Speaker 2: is when something happens and you interpret it and you
13:16
Speaker 2: create this rigidity and you start to frame your experience
13:20
Speaker 2: in a really programmed way that constricts you. And then
13:25
Speaker 2: the second aspect of trauma is when what you're feeling
13:30
Speaker 2: is so big and it feels too much. And so
13:34
Speaker 2: you disconnect from that. You're like, I can't feel this.
13:38
Speaker 2: This feeling is going to consume me. And so because
13:42
Speaker 2: I can't feel this, I'm just going to disconnect from
13:46
Speaker 2: this feeling and ignore it.
13:48
Speaker 1: I'm going to put it back here in the back somewhere.
13:50
Speaker 2: Or stuff it deep. And so what that does is
13:54
Speaker 2: that starts to teach you not to trust your feelings,
13:58
Speaker 2: not to trust your gut instinct. And so feelings get suppressed,
14:03
Speaker 2: and that's the second aspect of trauma. And then the
14:07
Speaker 2: third aspect of trauma is what any event can shape
14:11
Speaker 2: your worldview. And we were hit by a lumber truck.
14:15
Speaker 2: So maybe my worldview is now, lumber trucks are dangerous.
14:20
Speaker 1: Every time you see a lumber truck, you get triggered. Right.
14:23
Speaker 2: That's a danger. I can't pass that truck. That truck
14:26
Speaker 2: is unreliable in the way it drives. So I'm using
14:29
Speaker 2: that as an extreme measure. But you start to frame
14:32
Speaker 2: your world in a different way. And some of the aspects,
14:35
Speaker 2: like after losing your mother very young, your worldview could
14:40
Speaker 2: be I'm really jealous of everyone who has a mother.
14:44
Speaker 2: So no one knows how you start to frame your world,
14:48
Speaker 2: but you start to have this aspect of the world,
14:51
Speaker 2: your worldview, that is now different because of the event.
14:55
Speaker 2: But you're choosing all of that. Do you see how?
14:58
Speaker 2: So trauma is this response that you create. And because
15:04
Speaker 2: you have created it, it forces you to live in
15:07
Speaker 2: the past because you've now created that as an anchor
15:12
Speaker 2: inside of you. And so Gabor likes to say that
15:21
Speaker 2: we're prisoners of our past. And because of that, the
15:28
Speaker 2: fourth aspect of trauma is that it is impossible to
15:30
Speaker 2: be in the present world because the present world is
15:34
Speaker 2: too dangerous.
15:35
Speaker 1: That's a story you're telling yourself because of whatever....
15:40
Speaker 2: Experience you've had right because something could come that I'm
15:43
Speaker 2: unprepared for and so and so we choose to live
15:48
Speaker 2: in our past where we've created now all these conditions
15:51
Speaker 2: and we've adapted and that adaptation is really the invitation
15:56
Speaker 2: to start saying what from your childhood because everyone had
16:01
Speaker 2: it it starts in childhood when we were young and
16:05
Speaker 2: we had to adapt in order to live in our
16:08
Speaker 2: circumstances and in, in the world, because we come in
16:12
Speaker 2: as these, you know, unadapted beings, very connected to source. And,
16:18
Speaker 2: and we have a lot of curiosity and freedom and
16:21
Speaker 2: to live in earth school. We, it is part of
16:25
Speaker 2: the human process to start making adaptations. And so then
16:29
Speaker 2: we go through life and at some point, and what
16:33
Speaker 2: we're seeing is that that, that point is happening for
16:36
Speaker 2: younger people. We're in our 60s and it's happening for us.
16:40
Speaker 2: But we see people that it's happening in their late 20s,
16:43
Speaker 2: early 30s. And the world is shifting. People are becoming curious.
16:47
Speaker 2: And then there are other people who are not becoming
16:50
Speaker 2: curious at all. It is very fearful to question some
16:56
Speaker 2: of their deeply held beliefs. Because when you make an adaptation,
17:00
Speaker 2: you create a belief. And if that belief is not true...
17:05
Speaker 2: or I don't become curious about it and question the belief,
17:08
Speaker 2: what does that mean?
17:09
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm going to ask you a question. This is
17:16
Speaker 1: going to be maybe vulnerable. It's not something we've talked
17:19
Speaker 1: about ahead of time, but I'm just going to point
17:22
Speaker 1: something out to you. And I've pointed it out before,
17:24
Speaker 1: but just based on the conversation that we're talking about
17:27
Speaker 1: right now. So, and I think you already know this,
17:31
Speaker 1: and you'll willingly admit that you're not a very good
17:34
Speaker 1: passenger in the passenger seat.
17:36
Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm terrible. I'm terrible.
17:38
Speaker 1: And when we're driving somewhere and anything feels even a
17:44
Speaker 1: little bit unsafe to you, you react. And I notice
17:48
Speaker 1: how you react. I mean, you grab the door, you
17:53
Speaker 1: have a reaction that's beyond what it would be had
17:57
Speaker 1: you not... Do you attribute it to the accident or
18:01
Speaker 1: do you what do you attribute that to?
18:03
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely. I attribute to the accident, like when we're
18:05
Speaker 2: following and I suddenly see, um, cars in front of
18:10
Speaker 2: us putting on their brakes and we're still zooming ahead
18:13
Speaker 2: and we're not starting to slow down. I have a
18:16
Speaker 2: real reaction to that because just frozen in my mind
18:22
Speaker 2: is us on the road, nothing ahead of us. They're,
18:28
Speaker 2: they're not being anything in front of us. And then
18:30
Speaker 2: in the, in a nanosecond, the grill of that semi
18:35
Speaker 2: in front of us and us crashing. So I have
18:38
Speaker 2: this sense that.
18:39
Speaker 1: That moment in time is frozen and it's in your body.
18:41
Speaker 2: It's totally in my body. It is stuck in there.
18:43
Speaker 2: And I know that seconds cannot be managed. And so
18:51
Speaker 2: when we're driving fast and I can see the taillights
18:54
Speaker 2: starting to be hit, I want us to be more
18:58
Speaker 2: responsive to slowing down because.
19:02
Speaker 2: I have a story that says you cannot anticipate between
19:05
Speaker 2: here and a second from here the danger that could happen.
19:09
Speaker 1: And you feel like you're out of control because you're
19:12
Speaker 1: not driving.
19:13
Speaker 2: I feel like I could be hurt. I feel unsafe.
19:17
Speaker 2: And I've said that to you. I've said, you know,
19:19
Speaker 2: I know that this is something that you don't feel.
19:23
Speaker 2: I know this is something totally that I feel. And
19:27
Speaker 2: I've said to you, please just be sensitive to the
19:30
Speaker 2: way I feel, because my feeling is more irrational. Pushing
19:36
Speaker 2: the boundary isn't gonna repair me. Pushing the boundary and saying, see,
19:42
Speaker 2: we didn't crash, it re-traumatizes me. It actually re-traumatizes me.
19:47
Speaker 2: And it makes me wanna ride in the backseat. know,
19:50
Speaker 2: or it makes me want to drive, or it makes
19:52
Speaker 2: me not want to go when I'm not the driver.
19:55
Speaker 2: So I have all those interactions that is going to
19:59
Speaker 2: come into play and keep me safe. And so, you know,
20:02
Speaker 2: that's where as a loving partner, you have become sensitive,
20:06
Speaker 2: more sensitive to My reaction, and while it's not the
20:10
Speaker 2: way you would drive, you see and you get cued
20:15
Speaker 2: to slowing down sooner. Yeah. And sometimes you forget it.
20:19
Speaker 1: Because I'm not always 100% present with that in my mind.
20:24
Speaker 2: Right. But as soon as I grip the side of
20:26
Speaker 2: the door or the dashboard, you start to slow down.
20:30
Speaker 2: And so it's just there. And perhaps through more work,
20:35
Speaker 2: I could let that go. But that is a really
20:39
Speaker 2: event that I've adapted to. And the adaptation is start
20:44
Speaker 2: slowing down sooner. Start controlling the moment before the moment
20:49
Speaker 2: cannot be controlled. Because I lived through a moment that
20:52
Speaker 2: could not be controlled. And the cost was significant.
20:56
Speaker 1: Sure. And I have compassion for that. And... You know,
21:04
Speaker 1: I do try and make the best effort that I can,
21:06
Speaker 1: but there are times that I forget. And it also
21:09
Speaker 1: is a little bit traumatizing to me because of my
21:14
Speaker 1: own old story, my own software programming, which is, you know,
21:18
Speaker 1: I'm the youngest. And so being the youngest, my voice,
21:23
Speaker 1: this is, again, my perspective, my voice seemed to have
21:27
Speaker 1: less significance, less importance than other voices have. The event
21:33
Speaker 1: in my life, your car accident, the event in my
21:36
Speaker 1: life that changed everything was when my family went from
21:40
Speaker 1: four boys, my brothers, Jeff, Glenn, and Steve and I,
21:46
Speaker 1: me being six years younger than the next oldest to me.
21:50
Speaker 1: In 1967, when I was six years old, my uncle,
21:54
Speaker 1: my father's brother, passed away. And then his family of
21:57
Speaker 1: four children came into our family. two boys, two girls.
22:02
Speaker 1: So we went from four to eight overnight. Me being
22:04
Speaker 1: the youngest, I had all the attention. And, uh, I
22:11
Speaker 1: wouldn't say all the attention, but I had a good
22:12
Speaker 1: amount of attention, uh, being the youngest. I was, I
22:16
Speaker 1: was spoiled. I was, uh, uh, an attention hog. Uh,
22:21
Speaker 1: I enjoyed the attention. And then that shifted in 1967
22:26
Speaker 1: when I was six, that shifted significantly, uh, Looking back
22:30
Speaker 1: on it, I see that. Going through it at the time,
22:33
Speaker 1: it was showing up for me. I can feel it
22:38
Speaker 1: in my body, and I can remember some of the
22:40
Speaker 1: memories of some of the things that I experienced. But
22:45
Speaker 1: I didn't really look at it as trauma in my life, quote, unquote,
22:51
Speaker 1: until I've started trying to just allow things to come up.
22:58
Speaker 2: Right. Right. And so if you think about that experience,
23:02
Speaker 2: we're in a car and we're driving and I start
23:05
Speaker 2: to see the taillights. So that triggers my response, my
23:09
Speaker 2: trauma response. And I want us to slow down, which
23:14
Speaker 2: then triggers your response that I'm not in control.
23:17
Speaker 1: I'm not a good enough driver.
23:18
Speaker 2: I'm not right. So then if we weren't loving and kind,
23:25
Speaker 2: what would happen is that we would push to see
23:28
Speaker 2: whose trauma wins.
23:30
Speaker 1: And I think initially in our experiences together, we did
23:34
Speaker 1: some of that.
23:35
Speaker 2: Right. But then what happens is when you lean into
23:39
Speaker 2: that and you start to really understand the mirror, then
23:43
Speaker 2: it starts to shift. And as you slow down, and
23:49
Speaker 2: I thank you for doing that, and I am very
23:54
Speaker 2: receptive to now I feel safe again. it reinforces your value,
23:59
Speaker 2: that you're driving well. And it reinforces that I don't
24:04
Speaker 2: have to remind you that danger is ahead. So it
24:08
Speaker 2: starts to slowly repair both of our traumatic experiences when
24:13
Speaker 2: we can show up with each other and both be
24:16
Speaker 2: responsive to each other. Because then you naturally start slowing down.
24:22
Speaker 2: I say thank you and feel much safer. I don't
24:26
Speaker 2: feel like I have to prompt you anymore because you're
24:29
Speaker 2: naturally doing it. And you feel in control and that
24:32
Speaker 2: you're valued and you're a safe driver. And so that
24:35
Speaker 2: is where we can move beyond our traumatic experiences. And
24:40
Speaker 2: they can actually shift. And it suddenly can be an
24:45
Speaker 2: experience that we've moved beyond the traumatic experiences if we
24:49
Speaker 2: stay locked in those experiences. It's going to be the
24:51
Speaker 2: same experience. It's going to be like Groundhog Day every
24:54
Speaker 2: time we get in the car. You're going to drive
24:57
Speaker 2: too fast. I'm going to ask you please to slow down.
24:59
Speaker 2: I feel unsafe. You're going to say, that's crazy. I'm
25:04
Speaker 2: in control. You're totally safe. And neither of us heal.
25:08
Speaker 2: And in fact, our relationship gets strained. Yeah.
25:13
Speaker 1: Well, you know what? To quote my brother Paul, who
25:17
Speaker 1: is quoting Rain Man, I'm an excellent driver. I really
25:22
Speaker 1: am an excellent driver. I've been in one accident in
25:25
Speaker 1: my lifetime. And that accident was because I was driving
25:28
Speaker 1: down the road and someone let someone through to get
25:34
Speaker 1: onto State Street. And they pulled right in front of me,
25:36
Speaker 1: didn't see me, and I hit him. Right.
25:38
Speaker 2: But it isn't... You know, that's the part that is
25:41
Speaker 2: just really fascinating. It's not about you being an excellent driver.
25:44
Speaker 1: Oh, I know. I know.
25:44
Speaker 2: It's about me feeling safe.
25:47
Speaker 1: And that's the point. But what that brings up in
25:49
Speaker 1: me is I... I'm going to just freely admit that
25:53
Speaker 1: I'm an excellent driver, and that's not being arrogant. I'm
25:58
Speaker 1: a super safe, defensive-type driver. I'm watching out for other people. Now,
26:05
Speaker 1: if I see traffic slowing down on the, say it's
26:09
Speaker 1: a double lane and on the right side, if I
26:11
Speaker 1: see traffic slowing down, I slow down, even though I
26:14
Speaker 1: might have a straight path through, because I'm watching for
26:16
Speaker 1: someone to pull out in front of me. And that's
26:19
Speaker 1: what that accident and experience brought up for me. I'm
26:22
Speaker 1: super careful in that situation. And it's not to say
26:26
Speaker 1: that things don't just happen. I mean, you guys had
26:29
Speaker 1: no fault of your own when the lumber truck shifted.
26:33
Speaker 1: They braked to avoid someone, and it shifted them into
26:36
Speaker 1: your lane, and then the accident happened. It was no
26:38
Speaker 1: one's fault, but it is an event.
26:42
Speaker 2: Right, and you and I have had an event where
26:44
Speaker 2: we both almost died.
26:45
Speaker 1: I was going to mention that.
26:46
Speaker 2: So, you know, it's not so much... The event. It's just...
26:52
Speaker 2: I know, as a passenger in the car, that there
26:56
Speaker 2: are moments where the moment from where I'm at right
26:59
Speaker 2: now to the next moment is unsafe. And that can
27:04
Speaker 2: happen whether you're the most excellent driver.
27:06
Speaker 1: In the world.
27:07
Speaker 2: There's been a contest and you've won. It can be
27:11
Speaker 2: when you're driving or a sister's driving. My sisters all
27:14
Speaker 2: complain about it. It's not just your experience with me.
27:18
Speaker 2: It's anyone.
27:19
Speaker 1: anyone you're writing.
27:20
Speaker 2: That i'm writing with and in fact i will i
27:23
Speaker 2: will purposely say i'm not writing in front because i
27:27
Speaker 2: know as a front passenger my experience is very different
27:30
Speaker 2: than a back passenger and so i know that about
27:33
Speaker 2: myself and i i actively take precautions to not re-traumatize
27:39
Speaker 2: myself because it is painful it is painful.
27:43
Speaker 1: Well, I'm not going to name any names, but I
27:45
Speaker 1: know some people that you have ridden with that are
27:47
Speaker 1: not excellent drivers.
27:49
Speaker 2: Well, and again, it doesn't matter about the driving.
27:51
Speaker 1: It's dramatic for me, too. But what I do want
27:55
Speaker 1: to mention is that experience that we had. We were
27:57
Speaker 1: coming back from Arizona, and there was a semi in
28:02
Speaker 1: front of me. We were driving through the reservation lands
28:05
Speaker 1: just kind of north of Cameron, headed towards Page. And
28:11
Speaker 1: those roads are super windy and hilly. They're not level.
28:17
Speaker 1: And I was trying to pass this semi in front
28:21
Speaker 1: of us. So I gunned it, went around him. And
28:24
Speaker 1: as soon as I gunned it, went around him, it
28:25
Speaker 1: looked to me like everything was clear. But I didn't
28:29
Speaker 1: realize that there was a dip in the road. And
28:31
Speaker 1: as I hit the gas, a car came up out
28:35
Speaker 1: of that dip in the road that I didn't even
28:37
Speaker 1: realize was there. And it was too late really to
28:40
Speaker 1: do anything. And I instinctively, I don't know how it
28:46
Speaker 1: even happened. Rather than, I didn't feel like there was
28:49
Speaker 1: time for me to slow down and get back behind
28:51
Speaker 1: him because we were almost past him. I thought about
28:55
Speaker 1: just gunning it and getting past him. And instead, I
28:58
Speaker 1: pulled on the left side of the road.
29:01
Speaker 2: You went even further left into the kind of like
29:04
Speaker 2: the ditch.
29:05
Speaker 1: The edge of the road.
29:06
Speaker 2: The edge of the road.
29:06
Speaker 1: It was still pavement. I wasn't like driving in the gravel.
29:10
Speaker 1: And then that car passed between us and the semi.
29:14
Speaker 1: And then at that point, again, I didn't feel like
29:16
Speaker 1: I had time to get back behind the semi. So
29:18
Speaker 1: I just gunned it and got in front of him
29:20
Speaker 1: and passed him. And both of us were super traumatized
29:24
Speaker 1: by the event. And as soon as there was a
29:26
Speaker 1: pullout about a mile ahead, I pulled over. And as
29:29
Speaker 1: I pulled over, I mean, every car that was behind
29:32
Speaker 1: us had seen what happened. And they were all honking
29:35
Speaker 1: and waving their middle fingers out the window. You know,
29:39
Speaker 1: I had totally made a mistake. Almost could have injured
29:42
Speaker 1: us severely, could have injured the people coming severely.
29:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure the car coming was very traumatized.
29:48
Speaker 1: About the event.
29:49
Speaker 2: And we don't even know.
29:50
Speaker 1: No idea who it was.
29:51
Speaker 2: Neither one of us had an experience of seeing how
29:53
Speaker 2: many people were in that car because, I mean, I
29:56
Speaker 2: screamed and then braced for... braced to be.
29:59
Speaker 1: Hit you thought it was going to be the the
30:01
Speaker 1: event again.
30:02
Speaker 2: Yeah i screamed and just braced to be hit um but.
30:06
Speaker 1: Let me let me continue for just a second because
30:08
Speaker 1: what happened after that we pulled the car over it
30:12
Speaker 1: gave me a significant amount of compassion in that moment
30:17
Speaker 1: more compassion than i had had before about your experience
30:20
Speaker 1: because it was a close call super close call and
30:25
Speaker 1: i remember that we got out of the car and
30:27
Speaker 1: we were both in tears And we just embraced and
30:31
Speaker 1: were in total gratitude. I really don't know how we
30:33
Speaker 1: avoided the accident. It was super, super difficult and traumatizing.
30:39
Speaker 1: I remember telling my kids about it when I got
30:40
Speaker 1: home and they were all kind of re-traumatized by just
30:44
Speaker 1: sharing the experience with them because it was significant to me.
30:49
Speaker 1: And from that point moving forward, it has come back
30:52
Speaker 1: to me as when I'm, when I'm feeling like you're,
30:57
Speaker 1: when I'm going back to my own little, uh, youngest
31:00
Speaker 1: child syndrome of I'm an excellent driver or, you know,
31:04
Speaker 1: why are you judging me or I am a good
31:07
Speaker 1: driver or any of that stuff because of the way
31:10
Speaker 1: you're responding to something that I'm doing. Um, I just
31:14
Speaker 1: try and quiet my mind down and say, you know, this,
31:17
Speaker 1: this is what she's feeling and it's from this experience
31:21
Speaker 1: that you've had in your life.
31:21
Speaker 2: Right. And that's where, you know, um, working with Gabor
31:27
Speaker 2: Mate and Compassionate Inquiry, you realize that these responses, these adaptations,
31:34
Speaker 2: have nothing to do with you. I mean, as much
31:37
Speaker 2: as you would like it to mean that my response
31:39
Speaker 2: is being a criticism of you, my response is being
31:42
Speaker 2: a response to my experience.
31:44
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely.
31:45
Speaker 2: And so that's where.
31:46
Speaker 1: It took me time to realize that, though.
31:49
Speaker 2: But that's where the work really lies, because I think
31:52
Speaker 2: that is... As humans, that is our natural response. Life
31:57
Speaker 2: is a defensive game. And we are constantly seeking, unconsciously,
32:03
Speaker 2: validation of our experience. So if we're constantly seeking that
32:08
Speaker 2: validation of our experience, and I told myself when I
32:12
Speaker 2: was six years old, eight years old, five years old,
32:17
Speaker 2: that the world is unsafe, then I I am validating
32:22
Speaker 2: every moment and every day that experience subconsciously. And so
32:27
Speaker 2: compassionate inquiry prompts you to just be really curious to
32:32
Speaker 2: the first time you felt an emotion, the first time
32:36
Speaker 2: you felt an experience and return to that because that's where,
32:42
Speaker 2: however you made that mean. And imagine you're six years old.
32:46
Speaker 2: There's no way six, five, seven, There's no way you
32:50
Speaker 2: could in that moment at that age make meaning other
32:57
Speaker 2: than meaning that helped you adapt to survive in that
33:02
Speaker 2: moment as a five-year-old. So you're not making the meaning
33:05
Speaker 2: as a 25-year-old, a 30-year-old, a 40-year-old. You're making it
33:09
Speaker 2: mean with your little five years of experience. And then
33:14
Speaker 2: that is shaping and framing the rest of your life.
33:17
Speaker 2: Now the car accident happened when I was 27. So
33:20
Speaker 2: that is an experience that from 27 on to now,
33:25
Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to be 67 this year. So
33:28
Speaker 2: for 40 years I, I have revalidated that experience every
33:34
Speaker 2: time I'm in a car. But the ones when I'm
33:37
Speaker 2: a lot younger, you know, revalidating those experiences can be
33:43
Speaker 2: because the accident was such a traumatic event that I'm
33:46
Speaker 2: so aware of that. I have a lot of consciousness
33:49
Speaker 2: about that. But the events that happened when I was younger,
33:52
Speaker 2: I don't have a lot of consciousness about. For example,
33:56
Speaker 2: the other day, as I'm going through this training, one
33:59
Speaker 2: of the aspects of the training is to work with
34:03
Speaker 2: someone who's already trained and is a compassionate inquiry therapist facilitator.
34:09
Speaker 2: And as I was working, the way every experience, every
34:13
Speaker 2: session starts is you state an intention. And I've been
34:17
Speaker 2: really working on wanting to find more joy in my
34:20
Speaker 2: life and to feel the presence of joy in my
34:24
Speaker 2: life more frequently, more readily, you know, just be able
34:27
Speaker 2: to pull and draw upon it. And it doesn't mean
34:29
Speaker 2: that my life is sad. It's not. But I want,
34:33
Speaker 2: I just have this innate knowing that I could feel
34:37
Speaker 2: more joy every day. Like I could feel that just
34:40
Speaker 2: my heart full of joy every day if I understood
34:44
Speaker 2: why I don't. And so as we started that session,
34:50
Speaker 2: you know, and we were talking about joy, the question
34:53
Speaker 2: came up, you know, what limits you? And I said,
34:59
Speaker 2: you know, I put a lot of expectations on myself.
35:03
Speaker 2: You know, I, and then the question is like, well,
35:07
Speaker 2: how do you do that? And I'm like, you know,
35:10
Speaker 2: I kind of live by a to-do list. Now, am
35:14
Speaker 2: I thinking that there's anything traumatic in this? Anything bad
35:18
Speaker 2: about this other than my constant to-do list? And the
35:22
Speaker 2: question was, you know, took me to when did you,
35:26
Speaker 2: do you recall when you first had a to-do list
35:29
Speaker 2: or when you first made the to-do list very important?
35:33
Speaker 1: When did the software get downloaded?
35:34
Speaker 2: When did the, when did I create that meaning to
35:38
Speaker 2: a list? And it's, fascinating how compassionate inquiry works because
35:44
Speaker 2: it creates such safety. There's nothing right or wrong. It's
35:48
Speaker 2: just this beautiful curiosity that takes you deeper into yourself
35:53
Speaker 2: to ask those questions for me, for Loray, not for
35:56
Speaker 2: anyone else, but just for me. And suddenly I saw
36:00
Speaker 2: myself as a very young child and my to-do list
36:04
Speaker 2: was my summer chore chart. And, um, where as I
36:11
Speaker 2: would do my chores, I would get stars on my
36:15
Speaker 2: to-do list. So I was rewarded. I would get the
36:18
Speaker 2: attention of my mother. She had seven small children, so
36:22
Speaker 2: her attention was divided. There was no way anyone got
36:26
Speaker 2: it all the time because there were seven of us
36:28
Speaker 2: and my father, so eight. But I would get her attention,
36:34
Speaker 2: and she would be very happy that I had finished
36:36
Speaker 2: my chores. I also knew that there was no play
36:40
Speaker 2: until chores were done.
36:41
Speaker 1: You'd get a star.
36:43
Speaker 2: And I did get stars. But so there's like all
36:46
Speaker 2: these things that I'm seeing attached to, wow, a really
36:51
Speaker 2: young experience of a list. And it doesn't, you know, again,
36:57
Speaker 2: it's not meant to criticize anything about the list. You know,
37:01
Speaker 2: some sisters may have a really beautiful experience with the list.
37:06
Speaker 2: And I... Definitely, it worked for me. It gave me
37:12
Speaker 2: what I just said. It gave me structure. It gave
37:15
Speaker 2: me discipline. It gave me reward. Goal setting. Right. All
37:19
Speaker 2: those stars, all that. So I definitely, there were things
37:23
Speaker 2: that worked for me as a young child that are
37:26
Speaker 2: not working for me now at 66. The chart, the
37:31
Speaker 2: list has become a prisoner. So now in my life,
37:35
Speaker 2: I get to revisit that And I get to choose again.
37:39
Speaker 1: You're just curious, right?
37:41
Speaker 2: Right. I'm just curious. I'm not blaming the list. I'm
37:43
Speaker 2: not saying I should never have had it.
37:45
Speaker 1: It's not your mom's fault.
37:46
Speaker 2: It's not my mom's fault, my siblings. And it served
37:49
Speaker 2: its purpose. It gave meaning and brought something to my life.
37:53
Speaker 2: But now I am somewhat of a prisoner of the list.
37:56
Speaker 2: In fact, I told you that there are times I
37:59
Speaker 2: will put things on the list that weren't on there,
38:01
Speaker 2: but that I've done them just so I could take
38:03
Speaker 2: them off. Mm-hmm. So that I could feel that sense
38:05
Speaker 2: of reward.
38:06
Speaker 1: Accomplishment.
38:07
Speaker 2: Accomplishment. And so now my relationship with the list, I
38:14
Speaker 2: get to choose to make it differently. I get to
38:16
Speaker 2: say I can play before the list. I get gold
38:23
Speaker 2: stars for things that are not on the list. I
38:26
Speaker 2: get gold stars for just waking up in the morning
38:29
Speaker 2: and choosing for the first two hours to have nothing
38:32
Speaker 2: to do. what if I rewarded myself for that? I
38:36
Speaker 2: would then gravitate to that, right? And so it's just
38:39
Speaker 2: this bigger question about something that I gave meaning to
38:46
Speaker 2: that has kept, that served me for, you know, that
38:50
Speaker 2: adaptation definitely served a purpose, but is now limiting me
38:55
Speaker 2: in experiencing life differently. And I'm ready for that difference.
39:01
Speaker 2: I don't need the structure. I don't, need the list.
39:04
Speaker 2: The list is now keeps me a prisoner. And so
39:09
Speaker 2: it's just this really beautiful way to have compassion for yourself,
39:14
Speaker 2: to have that inquiry, that curiosity to say, you know,
39:19
Speaker 2: what am I, what am I doing? And to understand that,
39:24
Speaker 2: you know, when I see someone else around me that
39:26
Speaker 2: is maybe driven by a list, asking them a question about, well,
39:30
Speaker 2: what would happen? What does the list give you? And
39:34
Speaker 2: what would happen if the list wasn't in your life?
39:37
Speaker 2: What freedom would that give you? So it's just a
39:40
Speaker 2: really interesting aspect to revisit and become curious about your
39:45
Speaker 2: life and create more freedom in your life from these
39:50
Speaker 2: traumatic things, this trauma. Again, I always associated trauma with
39:58
Speaker 2: big events, traumatic events. But there's these little traumas, little
40:02
Speaker 2: T's they call them, that really shaped and defined our
40:06
Speaker 2: life and created a pattern in your life that perhaps
40:10
Speaker 2: doesn't serve you or that limits you. And what could
40:14
Speaker 2: happen in your life if that limitation was removed?
40:18
Speaker 1: And I think it's important to note that You know,
40:21
Speaker 1: it's not never too late to notice those things and
40:25
Speaker 1: allow them to dissipate. It's not like you'll never make
40:27
Speaker 1: another list in your life. But it is that your
40:31
Speaker 1: relationship with the list changes.
40:33
Speaker 2: Right. Well, we found that I have to make a
40:35
Speaker 2: list because I forget things. Yeah. So when we're going
40:38
Speaker 2: to Costco, I have to make a list.
40:39
Speaker 1: Me too. If you don't make me a list, something's
40:42
Speaker 1: going to get missed.
40:42
Speaker 2: Or we get there and we're like, now what did
40:44
Speaker 2: we need? So again, there are reasons for a list
40:47
Speaker 2: to serve me still. Sure. But when it comes to
40:51
Speaker 2: me having a relationship to my day.
40:54
Speaker 1: To feel safe.
40:56
Speaker 2: To feel safe or to feel valued. That's probably the
41:00
Speaker 2: bigger issue is I don't tell myself that I earned
41:06
Speaker 2: the value of that day unless I accomplished X, Y.
41:09
Speaker 1: And Z. Enough things on the list.
41:12
Speaker 2: When in fact, nothing during the day. Perhaps the day
41:17
Speaker 2: was just set in contemplation. Perhaps the day was just,
41:21
Speaker 2: you know, this morning I'm going to go out and
41:23
Speaker 2: I'm going to just spend the morning with my roses.
41:26
Speaker 2: I'm going to gently clip the leaves. I'm going to
41:29
Speaker 2: think about them. I'm going to talk to them. I'm
41:31
Speaker 2: just going to think about the reciprocity that I have
41:34
Speaker 2: with my flowers. You know, those are kind of things
41:37
Speaker 2: that I never did. They would never have hit my list.
41:40
Speaker 2: In fact, there was not time for that. So that
41:45
Speaker 2: sort of thing was not even... on my radar as
41:48
Speaker 2: an experience for me to have. And now I find
41:51
Speaker 2: a lot of joy in that. So it's, I think
41:56
Speaker 2: it's a prompt. I think it's a prompt for all
41:59
Speaker 2: of us to just become really curious about our own lives,
42:03
Speaker 2: about some of those things that, uh, you know, keep
42:07
Speaker 2: us rigid, keep our edges sharp. You know, how can
42:12
Speaker 2: we soften our edges? How can our relationship with ourselves
42:17
Speaker 2: first and foremost be more gentle? Because when we show
42:22
Speaker 2: up being gentle for ourselves, we're going to be gentle
42:24
Speaker 2: for others. When we show up curious about ourselves, we're
42:28
Speaker 2: going to be curious for others. When we have less
42:31
Speaker 2: right and wrong about ourselves and the way we walk
42:35
Speaker 2: in the world, we're going to have less right and
42:38
Speaker 2: wrong about the way others walk in the world. And
42:41
Speaker 2: all of that contributes to just a healthier relationship relationship
42:45
Speaker 2: as a human being with ourselves and with every other
42:48
Speaker 2: human being that crosses our path.
42:51
Speaker 1: It does. That's beautiful. So the purpose of this message today,
42:57
Speaker 1: I think is just for each person who's hearing it
43:01
Speaker 1: to contemplate that in your life. What are the, like
43:04
Speaker 1: in your relationship for the first part that we talked
43:06
Speaker 1: about in your relationship with others, be it your spouse,
43:09
Speaker 1: your siblings or parent or whoever it is that, um,
43:14
Speaker 1: what are some of the responses they may have that
43:16
Speaker 1: you have no idea why they respond the way they respond.
43:20
Speaker 1: I just have some curiosity and compassion with that and
43:23
Speaker 1: some open, hopefully dialogue about it where you can both
43:26
Speaker 1: process that and not have a judgment around it or
43:30
Speaker 1: holding it in a, in a place of negativity. Just
43:33
Speaker 1: be curious, allow that to be explored a bit.
43:37
Speaker 2: Before we sign off, I think another big one, you know,
43:40
Speaker 2: that was less about me, but just more about how
43:42
Speaker 2: my experience had changed, you know, being married to you
43:46
Speaker 2: and you being the baby of a large family and
43:51
Speaker 2: just having you share with me and point out like
43:54
Speaker 2: how your experiences were different or how sometimes you felt
43:58
Speaker 2: as the baby, given what the experience was, made me
44:02
Speaker 2: become really curious about my youngest sister and her experience
44:07
Speaker 2: in our family. And, just becoming curious about her experience
44:12
Speaker 2: and one, my role in it. So as you talked
44:16
Speaker 2: about your brothers, I became really curious about, well, what
44:20
Speaker 2: is my role in my youngest sister's life? Now, I
44:24
Speaker 2: could ask that question in all of my sister's lives
44:28
Speaker 2: and my brother's because we played a role in everyone's,
44:31
Speaker 2: but given that you're the youngest, it was prompted mostly
44:35
Speaker 2: about the youngest in my family. And having that experience
44:40
Speaker 2: and just those conversations with you where you allowed that
44:43
Speaker 2: vulnerability and that conversation and prompted my curiosity, I started
44:49
Speaker 2: to see ways that I had not imposed, and maybe
44:55
Speaker 2: in some ways had imposed, but how my experience to
45:01
Speaker 2: her as the youngest contributed to some self-beliefs that she held.
45:10
Speaker 2: And that's been challenging for me to understand and to
45:18
Speaker 2: be curious enough about to change. And now it's change
45:24
Speaker 2: that's not only me, but it's change that impacts her.
45:28
Speaker 2: And really being honest with her about what I see
45:33
Speaker 2: and saying, it must have been hard to be the
45:36
Speaker 2: youngest of these seven. And it's been fascinating because she
45:40
Speaker 2: says a lot of things that you say. You know,
45:45
Speaker 2: my voice wasn't heard. Sometimes my voice didn't count. And
45:51
Speaker 2: so it is a similarity of the youngest one in
45:58
Speaker 2: a large family. And so when we can understand that
46:02
Speaker 2: and just, again, allow it to be a different relationship
46:06
Speaker 2: and allow that now we're all Almost all of my siblings.
46:10
Speaker 2: She'll turn 59 this year. My oldest sister who passed
46:13
Speaker 2: away would have been 73. So now, you know, so
46:17
Speaker 2: my second sister is 71. So imagine the range from
46:23
Speaker 2: 71 to 59. We're all adults now. No one has
46:28
Speaker 2: to play those childhood roles.
46:31
Speaker 1: You're all older adults with children and grandchildren.
46:35
Speaker 2: But guess what?
46:38
Speaker 1: Those roles are still active. They are.
46:40
Speaker 2: You know, we get together and those roles are still active.
46:44
Speaker 2: And imagine if all of us very intentionally started to
46:50
Speaker 2: let go of those roles.
46:51
Speaker 1: Let go of the roles.
46:53
Speaker 2: And just gave ourselves freedom to say, wow, I want
46:56
Speaker 2: a different relationship with you other than where you are
47:00
Speaker 2: in the family. You know, you being the youngest and
47:04
Speaker 2: annoying me or you being the youngest and needing to
47:08
Speaker 2: have this true or that true, whatever all those circumstances are,
47:13
Speaker 2: every family has them. And not only the youngest, but
47:17
Speaker 2: the oldest, the next baby, the middle, the number four.
47:21
Speaker 2: If we all just allowed those roles to soften and
47:28
Speaker 2: to look at them and say, here's what I would
47:31
Speaker 2: need from all of you to let go of a
47:33
Speaker 2: role that limits me. I think that would be a
47:37
Speaker 2: really healing process for a family to embark upon. But
47:40
Speaker 2: it takes every single one of you to be aware
47:43
Speaker 2: and willing, curious, and wanting to step into that space
47:48
Speaker 2: because so you, you will be challenged that this, I
47:52
Speaker 2: will promise you will be challenged about the beliefs that
47:57
Speaker 2: you hold, that you don't even know where beliefs that
48:01
Speaker 2: started as you were all these young children growing up together.
48:05
Speaker 1: And don't, don't not explore that because of your preconceived
48:10
Speaker 1: ideas of where the relationship sits with your siblings. Explore it.
48:15
Speaker 2: Be, find, find a way to create a safe space
48:19
Speaker 2: for everyone to go there. Cause safety. And that's the
48:22
Speaker 2: other thing, um, that Gabor Mate's training has taught is
48:27
Speaker 2: that no one can go to those places unless they
48:31
Speaker 2: feel safe.
48:33
Speaker 1: I think you and I both learned this yesterday. Um,
48:37
Speaker 1: as we were talking to my brother Jeff and you
48:40
Speaker 1: were talking with your brother Rick, well, we were both
48:43
Speaker 1: visiting with them. And I felt like we were making
48:47
Speaker 1: some real connection with both of them. And the reason
48:54
Speaker 1: that the connection was deeper than it normally is is
48:58
Speaker 1: because it was one-on-one. And it wasn't the dynamic of
49:02
Speaker 1: the whole family wasn't there because usually we're at family reunions.
49:04
Speaker 1: And so all the brothers are there. And so the
49:08
Speaker 1: dynamic of all of the brothers together, it's like everything
49:11
Speaker 1: falls into that dynamic. As soon as you get together,
49:14
Speaker 1: you're in that dynamic.
49:15
Speaker 2: You return to that family system.
49:16
Speaker 1: The oldest and on down to the youngest.
49:19
Speaker 2: You return. to that family system.
49:20
Speaker 1: The pecking order. It's just like when I go and
49:22
Speaker 1: look at my chicken coop every night, they're in the
49:25
Speaker 1: same order every night. That's how they live. They're lined
49:30
Speaker 1: up in the same.
49:31
Speaker 2: Order every night. That's the pattern until it breaks.
49:33
Speaker 1: How does that happen?
49:35
Speaker 2: Right.
49:35
Speaker 1: So it's no different than that. But so as you
49:40
Speaker 1: decide if you're going to explore this with siblings or not,
49:44
Speaker 1: I would recommend exploring it individually, one on one.
49:47
Speaker 2: Right. And allowing that. It's also, you know, we had
49:51
Speaker 2: a wedding recently in our family and my youngest sister
49:55
Speaker 2: was in town with all her children. And she shared
49:58
Speaker 2: with me a really funny story. She said that they
50:00
Speaker 2: were playing a game and it wasn't while they were
50:02
Speaker 2: in town playing the game. They had actually been somewhere
50:05
Speaker 2: else playing the game, but she shared it with me
50:06
Speaker 2: while they were here. And she said one of the
50:09
Speaker 2: questions that came up was, how hard was your childhood?
50:15
Speaker 2: How strict, not hard, how strict was your childhood on
50:18
Speaker 2: a scale from 1 to 10? And her oldest child said, 10.
50:25
Speaker 2: By all means, 10. And the middle child said 5.
50:31
Speaker 2: And the youngest one said 3. And when the youngest
50:34
Speaker 2: one said 3, the oldest one said, What world did
50:38
Speaker 2: you grow up in? Right? But that question is true.
50:42
Speaker 1: Oh, it is.
50:43
Speaker 2: What world did you grow up in? Because she grew
50:46
Speaker 2: up in a very different world, even though it was
50:50
Speaker 2: the same house, the same siblings, the same parents, than
50:54
Speaker 2: the oldest one did. And the age gap is not
50:57
Speaker 2: that great between them. You know, there may be, let's see,
51:03
Speaker 2: three and a half years, because, you know, Him and
51:07
Speaker 2: the middle child, I think there's two years between them.
51:10
Speaker 2: And then there's like, you know, 15 months between the
51:13
Speaker 2: middle and the baby. So the three of them were
51:17
Speaker 2: pretty close together growing up. But how significant. And that's
51:22
Speaker 2: the significance of the dynamics changing between first parents, first
51:26
Speaker 2: time parents to an older child. And then parents who
51:30
Speaker 2: are now with the youngest child. And a lot had
51:33
Speaker 2: happened in their lives, right? You know, economics had changed.
51:37
Speaker 2: Geographics had changed. Just a lot of circumstances. And the
51:42
Speaker 2: family laughed. You know, they saw a lot of humor
51:45
Speaker 2: in it, which was fun. But it's also, then that
51:49
Speaker 2: humor can actually prompt a question that, wow, this is
51:54
Speaker 2: just a fun example. But how could our worldviews be
51:57
Speaker 2: very different? And our expectations with one another be very different?
52:02
Speaker 2: Because this was something... That was planted at a very
52:06
Speaker 2: young age.
52:07
Speaker 1: Definitely. I have loved this conversation. And I think we'll
52:16
Speaker 1: feel into this, but I think probably at least once
52:19
Speaker 1: a month we're going to do a conversation with the
52:22
Speaker 1: two of us. And there's some things I'd like to
52:24
Speaker 1: continue this conversation about, but we don't want to extend
52:27
Speaker 1: it too much. So the next time we get together,
52:30
Speaker 1: what I would like to do is delve a little
52:32
Speaker 1: bit more into this. the realizations I've been having. And
52:34
Speaker 1: I'm going to sit with it between now and then,
52:37
Speaker 1: go a little bit deeper in my daily practices and
52:41
Speaker 1: rituals and contemplations about some of these realizations that I've
52:47
Speaker 1: been having of being the youngest, the experiences that I've had,
52:51
Speaker 1: the interactions with siblings and some of those things that,
52:54
Speaker 1: you know, yours was, your biggest traumatic event was the
52:59
Speaker 1: car accident. My biggest traumatic event, I think, that's coming
53:04
Speaker 1: up for me right now was when my uncle died,
53:06
Speaker 1: as I mentioned. So I'd like to delve more into
53:09
Speaker 1: that and the relationship with siblings and a lot of
53:12
Speaker 1: that different stuff as we continue to do it. And
53:15
Speaker 1: hopefully what this can mean to you, as I said before,
53:19
Speaker 1: is just in your relationships, be curious and allow yourself
53:24
Speaker 1: to be present with those things and have some one-on-one
53:28
Speaker 1: interactions and discussions to help shed some light where maybe
53:35
Speaker 1: You might be holding things in a negative space, but
53:37
Speaker 1: they can be transformed into something positive of the light
53:42
Speaker 1: and not having to be right or wrong, but it
53:44
Speaker 1: can be transformed and deepen your relationships more. That's the
53:48
Speaker 1: entire point.
53:49
Speaker 2: I love that. I think it's perfect because I'll be
53:52
Speaker 2: going through this compassionate inquiry training. I started in May,
53:57
Speaker 2: so it goes for a year. So it's going to
53:58
Speaker 2: take us back. It's going to take us through the next,
54:02
Speaker 2: you know, eight months or so back to May. And
54:05
Speaker 2: it can just be a journey that we take everyone on.
54:07
Speaker 2: And as you become curious about it, you know, I
54:10
Speaker 2: really encourage you to, you know, reach out and follow, um,
54:16
Speaker 2: Gabor Mate on, uh, social media, what he says, and
54:20
Speaker 2: look to see where there's a compassionate inquiry therapist in
54:26
Speaker 2: where you live. Um, we're in a, you know, we're
54:29
Speaker 2: in a cohort and, um, it's surprising to me and
54:34
Speaker 2: also very rewarding to see that it is a very
54:38
Speaker 2: active cohort that is very international. It's, you know, the
54:42
Speaker 2: U S presence is very small. There's relative, yeah. Relative
54:47
Speaker 2: to the size of the cohort. It is, it is
54:49
Speaker 2: truly the largest international kind of experience that I have
54:54
Speaker 2: been having.
54:54
Speaker 1: So you're getting to see multiculturally how people are interacting
55:00
Speaker 1: and As you always state, you're getting to see how
55:04
Speaker 1: similar we are.
55:05
Speaker 2: Yes, it's really beautiful.
55:07
Speaker 1: No matter where they're from.
55:07
Speaker 2: We're more similar than we are different.
55:09
Speaker 1: Whether they're from India or Canada.
55:13
Speaker 2: Dubai, Canada, France, England, Sweden. It's just Mexico. It's beautiful.
55:21
Speaker 2: It's just really a beautiful community that I'm in.
55:25
Speaker 1: Well, may the world get smaller through this experience.
55:28
Speaker 2: Yes.
55:29
Speaker 1: Awesome. All right, so I guess that's it for today.
55:32
Speaker 1: Do you feel complete?
55:33
Speaker 2: I feel complete.
55:34
Speaker 1: I do too. All right then. Until next time. Bye.
55:40
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55:58
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56:02
Speaker 1: in the world today. There's been so much separation, and
56:05
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56:08
Speaker 1: we can come together, not divide so much as we
56:12
Speaker 1: have been, to learn to come together in unity. Thank you.
56:20
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