Latest / Curiously Guided Podcast / Ep.34 | “Playing as a Professional” - How to Start Infusing a Playful Mindset into Your Daily Routines with Brand Strategist, Angela Ficorelli

Transcript

Ep.34 | “Playing as a Professional” - How to Start Infusing a Playful Mindset into Your Daily Routines with Brand Strategist, Angela Ficorelli · Curiously Guided Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the Curiously Guided Podcast, The Place for Intuitive Business Owners.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: We're your hosts, Shay Mariah, and today we're talking about play, play and fun and all things what I think exciting in business right now.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I am we I invited a good friend of mine, Angela uh Figarelli, to come on the podcast today.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: She is a brand strategist, has a background in design, um, has a background in teaching and educating.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just is a very, I think I really admire her as a human.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: She's really a visionary.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: She has a lot of um, you'll hear in the podcast, you know, she kind of has a more subtle, laid-back style, but like when she speaks, it's just powerful.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I love she follows her curiosity.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: She's always learning, she's always um the way she's able to synthesize things and like pull things together, and it's just next level.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I really, really enjoy being around her.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: I always leave feeling inspired.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: And lately, what's been sparking her curiosity is this idea of play.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so she's really kind of dove in and explored, you know, play.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: What does play look like as an adult?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly what does play look like in work?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, work and play, I think I traditionally have thought about them as two totally separate disjointed things.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have, we hear work hard, play hard.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's two separate ideas that happen separately.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so Angela is really exploring this idea of like, how do we bring play into work?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what does that look like?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And play is more of like a mindset instead of I immediately, I was so literal at the beginning of the episode, I immediately went to play as like playing games or playing a board game.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, that is a way to play, but like, how do you think in a more playful way?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you approach what you do at work with a sense of play and joy and lightness and ease?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, a couple of things that have really stood out to me from this episode.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: We kind of talk about video games, which you know makes me very happy.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: We also talk about the idea of like the importance of boredom and making space for boredom and how I think as adults in our hustle culture, we don't make a lot of space to just have true downtime.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: And really that's where like the best creativity and play can come out of.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So Angelina touches on that a little bit, a bit on like the research of play and how I don't know, we go a little bit fun and have fun, but we also go a little deep here.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate that about her.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then she wraps up the episode with just some mic drop moments that I have really appreciated and have quite honestly been pinging around my head ever since we recorded this.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I definitely encourage y'all stick around to the end.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: It is totally worth it.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this episode was fucking great.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: I like had so many aha moments.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think it might sound silly, but I feel like I'm like a different person at the beginning of the episode, like every interview, and then also at the end of the interview, because I feel like curiosity just allows us to ask questions.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: We learn about people's story, we learn about their perspective, and it's just so fucking nourishing.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: But this episode made me realize like my blind spots when it comes to play.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like it literally, I was like, define play.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to play?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Give me examples of play.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And Angela, in like a very sweet way, is like, yeah, but like it's it's a shift.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how can you add more play?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Yeah, but define play.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I wanted some concrete Webster's dictionary, bullet pointed example of like how to play, when really that's missing the point.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like instead, it's how can we allow curiosity to shift us into a more playful perspective?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And like that better definition of play and like seeing it through that lens was just so much more helpful.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, this podcast is called Curiously Guided.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you leave, if you like infuse curiosity into any definition, I feel like it'll land a little bit better for me.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: But for this one, I was just like, oh shit.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then I do like the part of the episode where it's like sometimes we don't know what we want to do, like when we're bored, we're just like, we don't know what we want to do.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so we dove into other ways to think about it, like starting with what you don't want to do and all of that other stuff.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: So this episode is just, although it doesn't, I feel like concrete define exactly what play is and how to time it into your work schedule.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that that wasn't the way that this episode came out because this episode is just so much more nourishing for our inner child, for us as adults, for a community.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel like this perspective is really fucking needed in society.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So just gonna read Angela's bio real quick.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So Angela Ficcarelli is a brand strategist based out of Detroit, Michigan.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: She's always found a lot of joy in creating art and making meaningful connections with others.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: She runs her own studio, Subtle Design Co., where she invites business owners into the branding process with her so they can all design a system that works for them.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: She also teaches as an adjunct professor at College for Creative Studies, where she graduated from, focusing on senior portfolio development and business practices, helping students prepare to enter the working world.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yo, she's doing God's work, man.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is super important.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's let's just get into the episode.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Angela, we are so excited to have you on the podcast and to talk about this theme of play.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so funny because I find that usually around the time that we're recording certain podcasts and having certain guests on, the themes that we're going to be talking about tend to like show up a lot, like specifically in my life.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: But like then I talk to Shay about it and it's popping up in her life too.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we're just like, what the fuck?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Divine timing at its finest.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: But lately, like a few days ago, I got a solar return like astrology reading from a guest that we've had on the podcast, Shayna.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: And she was literally reading my birth chart, and she was like, Mariah, the next year, it's all about like you finding the balance between like discipline and getting work done, but also like play.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Play is really important.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: You need to play more, you need to play, play, play.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm like going over my human design chart with Jay and like we're talking about it.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: And like one of the things that like I have to work on adding into my life, apparently just in like this incarnation to begin with, is play.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like looking at the world through the eyes of a child and like play, play, play, play.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I just find myself being like, what the fuck does that mean?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was literally sitting there yesterday and I was like, I'm gonna have to Google like examples of how to play.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: How does someone play?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like this conversation is it's really coming at the right time.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm glad that I can ask you that instead of like randos on Google about like what exactly play is.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm just I'm really excited for this conversation.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so pretty pretty much um, Angela, Mariah and I have started talking about play.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's also popping up in my life a lot around um, you know, especially I think the times we're living in right now are really heavy.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And uh being a business owner can be really heavy and serious if you let it.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm really intrigued by this idea of play.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm also exploring the idea of neurodivergence and how those of us that are resonating with that word crave novelty.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've been thinking about can I incorporate more play into my work to kind of feed that thirst for novelty and fun, right?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Almost as like an antidote to um resistance.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: I would say I do it a lot.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I the same as Mariah, I keep thinking about play, and then I'm like, am I gonna get out shoots and ladders?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I'm about to, we're Googling how to play.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, especially as adults, we feel disconnected.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what does that word even mean anymore as an adult?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel very disconnected from even making space for play, whereas it used to be my whole life.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of why I don't know, we've uh what sparked our curiosity and led us down this rabbit trail of whatever rabbit hole of um play and how we could incorporate that into our work as online business owners.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, would you mind telling us your origin story a little bit of like what originally was the spark for play for you?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: What did that look like?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you've got dove quite deeply into it now, from what I understand.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: So take us back to the beginning.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_04: So it all kind of started with um, I was asked to do a lecture at the school that I teach at at College for Creative Studies.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_04: It's in Detroit.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_04: And um, and I wanted it to usually people just like share their work, but I knew I was going to be in front of a lot of creative professionals.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_04: And I really wanted to just use that as an opportunity to give like uh a message uh that was more motivating and more um like there's so much pressure, I think, that we face as creative professionals, like the pressure to come up with ideas constantly, to have everything look good, to perform and all of this pressure.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: So I wanted to do something to relieve that.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_04: And um, so I I started writing um and exploring play and like this idea of playing like a professional and what that looks like.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um there was like a thing that I learned um that really like shifted my entire mindset when it came to um incorporate or like thinking about play, which was um from like this idea that your career is not a finite game.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_04: So it's an infinite game, which means like in an in a finite game, there's like a winner, a loser, there's a way to play, there are rules, and there's like a definite ending.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_04: And that's how a lot of people play in their career naturally.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's they play to win, they're gonna get creative awards or try to win clients or do, you know, all of it.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's all about like winning or like being the top agency in the city, or you know, like something like that.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: And um, and that I believe really like just creates so much pressure and creates competition and comparison.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_04: And um so looking at it as like an infinite game, it's like you aren't trying to win, there's no right or wrong, you're just trying to play as long as possible.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_04: And um, to me, the first thing I thought of for that was like thinking of like my personal childhood of like going to um the park with my best friend who was my neighbor.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_04: And like we would just go there without any plan.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like there was no, you know, we is and all of as I was like remembering how I played as a kid, like just kind of exploring and like we'd make up stories and play with whatever was there, or even if maybe we decided to do the playground.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_04: It was all like in relation to how I do workshops for brand strategies, like you go in empty, you just kind of see what's there, and you kind of like um you can pivot and change direction if you want.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_04: And so I just I like loved that comparison so much.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_04: So then I started diving into like um more like scholarly writings about play, and and it's like really essential in like child development, which I think is why everyone kind of references it is like play like the mind of a child, because they they which yeah, those terms crack me up because it's like, what does that even mean?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, it's like to me, play is really all about there not being a writer wrong.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's really just about like looking at what's there and seeing what's possible and and like um yeah, like working with what you have in front of you kind of thing.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think a lot of people um when they hear me talking about play, they're like, oh, is it like playing games in the workplace?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like I get to know you games.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, no, like it's more of like a mindset, you know, it's not about like literally I mean, I love playing games, um, like board games and stuff like that, but it's more about like the mindset that you're going into.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, yeah, like I don't, there is no right or wrong.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just trying to get to a solution or, you know, or seeing what's there and not really closing my mind to possibilities because I don't know where the end is.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_04: It's like helping you become comfortable in the unknown, I guess.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: Is that yeah?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh really quick.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, your mic, I think it's picking up the one on your headphones, and so it's like wrestling like against here.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: Oh God, I'm so sorry.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, you're set.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're set.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Shay, I don't know if you've noticed.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Can you hear it?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a big deal.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it was in my hair.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, okay, cool.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just wanted to, okay.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome, awesome.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um no big deal at all.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: We have like audio issues haunt us as a family, so like this to it.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_04: Even some of my, yeah.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I listen to a ton of podcasts and I a lot of them start like, we're so sorry, like around this time.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I get it.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, cool.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Mariah, you want to pick us back up?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um wow, yeah.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I I love that definition and kind of looking at it in terms of a mindset because it's like it takes the pressure off of like having to do something.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel like before when I'm like, okay, I have space to play, and then I'm looking around, looking at the board games, looking at and I'm like, do I buy chalk?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Do I, I don't know, but everything feels so forced.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, I have to do this, I have to go and take out the colored pencils, I have to do this.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm just like, I don't fucking want to.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't want to do it like that.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: But then I feel like when I allow myself to look around and to be more like, what problem can I solve?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like kind of looking at it through that way, I feel like I'm like, ooh, okay.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then my mind just goes, but it's like I never correlate that with play.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because, like, in my head, it like it isn't the same thing, like problem solving.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God, this is so funny now that I'm actually saying it out loud.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Problem solving is an adult thing.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Play is not, and then I'm like, what the fuck?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Kids literally play to problem solve, and like that's how all of us are created.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's what creativity is, right?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like it comes from a form of like solving some kind of problem.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's hilarious to me that like even in my own mindset, I'm literally like creating this roadblock of like, no, problem solving is for adults.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: But like the definition that you gave is it's just so empowering.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's so much fucking easier.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why are we adding so much pressure on ourselves to like do play?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_04: I think um, yeah, it's like it is so natural for us to have that pressure because I think we're just like looking for the I have I have a natural tendency to want to just like jump to the finished project and like even in like activities or like you know, little hobbies or whatever.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_04: Like if I'm drawing or doing a collage, it's like, okay, I want it to look cool or whatever.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like I set up all these like parameters for what success looks like, and I'm like, why am I doing that?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_04: Like it doesn't matter, it just matters that I'm like being in the present moment and like you know, making something, you know, and maybe I'm thinking about something while I'm making it, and that that becomes like really beneficial.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe I'll get somewhere, but it's like you also have to, I think going into a creative project with that mindset can also be scary because you're like, what if I don't make anything?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but like I've never had that happen.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it's like you will get to somewhere, you know, and it, I don't know, it's kind of like trusting yourself and and knowing that it will just like get you somewhere.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I used to spend a lot of time as a designer just like going through Pinterest and trying to find inspiration.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_04: And what I really think I was trying to do is just like find the answer of like what I needed this thing to look like, or like it's gotta be out there, like it's gotta look like something.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I I know it when I see it type of thing.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_04: And then I'm like, what am I doing?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_04: I am like a designer, I can like make my own thing.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_04: So then it's like going back to the concepts that you have and pulling inspiration from things that are not designed, you know, and looking at those, and and then that is like becomes your um like your kit of parts or whatever uh that you can like then kind of play with.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um that was another cool thing that I learned in my just like learning about it was there's um a theory, I think it was like in the 70s, and it's called the theory of loose parts.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_04: And it's in reference to how kids learn with like certain toys.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: So the idea is the more parts you have, the more that is like equivalent.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_04: Like there's um the more parts you have is equal to how creative you can be.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_04: So when I I really liked that and applying it to like a brand.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_04: So now when I'm creating a brand, I kind of think of it as this kit of parts that I'm handing over to the client and just saying, like, here's all the different elements, and like maybe diff, you know, like there's no way that you can use these together that would be wrong.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's like you're removing that right or wrong from the client and then allowing them to play with it and being creative.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_04: And they don't have to like come to me every time they need like a little social media graphic done or something, you know, it's like they can use all the parts and pieces that they've got and and kind of like I'll give them some like ideas of what things can look like, but um yeah, it's like so yeah, it's like Plague has kind of incorporated in that sense too of like um yeah, just creating like a kit of parts for that, like so that you can just I don't know, have fun with it and have you know, so your brand can evolve over time and it's not just like the same background being used over and over again or whatever, but um yeah, empowering as a client, yeah.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I know brand designers that are like you can only do it this way and this way, and this is exactly how it's supposed to look.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the clients are like, Oh fuck, I don't want to piss off a brand designer, like, oh damn, but like at the end of the day, like, bitch, it's your business, like you get to do whatever you want.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, when I worked at studios, I remember handing over um like a brand guideline or whatever to one of our clients, and they would be like, Oh, I hope we don't mess it up.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Oh, like I don't want them to feel like that.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like it should be foolproof, like it should be, you know, like clear so that you can just run with it and they should be excited.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, it was like then that I realized, like, oh wow, like it was like the the weight of what designing a brand is like really set in.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, oh, we're giving it to this person, and for me, it's like done, but that they're gonna use that for like maybe the next 10 years, like all those graphics, the logo, the colors, all of that is gonna be like their world for a long time.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_04: So then it's like so that I kind of took as a challenge of like, well, I would want it like going back to what you said about like novelty, it's like I would want it to be different every time.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_04: Like I wouldn't want to just use the same, not that I don't know, yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_04: It's like so I walk, I try to walk a balance of like, how do we make it kind of kinetic in a way to where there's like room to grow or just use things in different ways while it's also like not confusing and overwhelming, like it's still fun and you know, I don't know.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: I love what you're saying.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: First, rewinding back to play is a mindset.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: That was like a already an aha moment for me.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: I love the language you use for everything, Angela.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: But like I was thinking play as play games.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, you can play games, but what is the mindset of play?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: That and I loved what you said about.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: um thinking about it as a instead of like winners and losers and I have this you know ladder to climb and I need to kick people in the dust and I'm ahead and they're behind or vice versa.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know it's so much ladder.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's so much more empowering to think about my career and my business as a maybe think about it as I would think about a game.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, really that's the cool part about this world that we're in an online business.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what drew a lot of us here is like it is truly infinite potential.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that can be overwhelming but it also can be really cool if you have this just kind of like this is the level of the game I'm in now.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And like where can I get and like what could we make of this so much more empowering than I got to work my way up.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I got to beat this person.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: I got to achieve these things X, Y, and Z.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what's so empowering about what you're saying is like not only are we staying in play mindset, but we're inviting our clients.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're holding space for our clients to have some play and they probably don't have it either.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's like something that I have heard consistently across the board from adults of like I like this idea but I have no idea what it looks like realistically.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: We're all craving I think play.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I just love the idea of like I think the sign of a talented designer or strategist is can the client understand are they bought in?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Can they use it?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you just like crack the code.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's like make it playful for them, make them want to use it, you know, like let's all have a little bit of fun with this that feels like just all of it feels so much more of an empowering and fun place to come from.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah Mariah.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I feel like like you mentioned allowing clients to play I had like a huge light bulb moment where it's like not even in just the design world in the coaching world too.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: How many times are we asking clients questions?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: How many times are we like trying to see where they are and like exploring with curiosity like their perspective their situation their experience and how many times are the is the client like yeah but just tell me the right or wrong answer.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And like I feel like I I know this very well because like that was me.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I still obviously fall into that but it's like I remember getting coached by somebody who's like yeah but like you're not telling me like what I should do.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like what if I fucking told you that there is no wrong way to do it.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like just what do you want to do?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like yeah but you don't get it like there is this is like a vertical thing and I need to take a step up and like I need to do it this way and like there is a right and a wrong way and they were like no like what if there wasn't and that felt so unsafe to me to think about like wait this is all very flexible and like there isn't a right and wrong way.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: I that was like kind of like identity shattering for me.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: When I got that one yeah where it was like there is no right wrong and you don't know better than me even though I paid you.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean I still have to figure it out?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I paid you so you could figure it out.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'll do the work you just tell me what to do.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: But then it's like no this is your business bitch.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: You got to fucking step up you got to figure it out and allow yourself to like move forward with curiosity and with play.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: That was just like a huge shift where like it's not even just in the design world it's literally like in coaching in business in general.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's also like parenting like I'm not a parent quite yet but it's like I remember my mom with me being like I'm bored my mom's like cool I don't care like fucking do something figure it out.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a problem for you to solve I'm not here to like give you a curriculum like I got shit to do.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah my daughter she's she just turned 12 she'll say that to me she's like I'm bored and I'm like oh what are you gonna do?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And like it's always my response to that is like oh well you'll figure it out like yeah well you know I've wondered speaking of boredom I've been thinking about this play oftentimes as kids comes out of boredom right and I think um my friend the other day we were I have a like a zoom call with my college friends every once in a while and she said she was bored and that took me by surprise because I literally can't remember the last time I felt bored and I was like Shay maybe that's your problem.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know maybe I'm wondering where play is and it's like well I don't ever give myself any space for I don't get bored to then explore I'm scrolling or I'm filling every minute in with something like there is no space in my schedule.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_04: So I thought that was kind of interesting of like oh maybe there's something here like maybe we never let ourselves get bored and maybe there's a consequence to that yeah I think it yeah it's so easy to like go through the entire day just completely distracted and not even like realize but still be entertained and like not realize it you know and yeah um yeah there's yeah it's like disconnecting a little bit and getting back into your world and seeing like it it really is that like going back to um looking at all of like the parts and pieces of what you have in front of you and it's like what can I do with this stuff you know it's like um it can be like a really fun way to like challenge yourself of like what can I do with all of these things and then um yeah and then just like see where it goes.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes it's like writing in a journal or yeah like I don't know like it can be really anything.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah that's that's so interesting.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well it's also making me think like play is um an exercise in presence um yeah oh yeah what you're saying about and I've been talking about this with my coaching clients lately and even strategy clients of in a way all we ever have is like what he is here right now.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: So like yes we can make all the plans in the future and we can think about envision and all that stuff.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's great but like really all we ever our our real value is can we sit down, take a look at what we have right now with an honest lens and like make the most out of like our strengths, right?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: And like try to minimize weaknesses, that kind of idea.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: But there is something beautiful about presence that we kind of skip over and really any future planning is all play because we're guessing you know we're kind of having fun with it.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: We have no control over how the future unfolds so I think that's cool but something you've both hit on that is like kind of connecting dots for me is I think there's a level of safety and self-trust that we have to build to then get our minds at ease to open up to this idea of play.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And because I I listened to Mariah and I was like oh I went through that journey too of like and I think it's how we're trained in schools you know like you give me the answer I regurgitate the answer I'm rewarded like advance advance you know so of course we go into business like oh I don't know the answers someone out there does I just need to pay them and someone's going to give me the right answer.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right I need another course I need another program.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_04: I need to look to like I know what I'm doing and yeah yeah I still have an issue with that one.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm almost like I have to look like I know everything and I'm like you can't tell clients like I don't know or like I'll come back to it.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like of course I can like how how humbling and like how beautiful is it when a coach that you put on this pedestal is like I don't fucking know I don't know that answer.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Let's explore it together.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like oh they don't know we can explore it together.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: They're not on a pedestal we're all just fucking figuring it out as we go.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like how beautiful is that yes I think also um you were talking you said the phrase our strengths or whatever like recognizing our strengths and that made me think of um this concept that I that I love which you know I think having that play mindset when you go into let's say like a meeting with a client it really like helps build it's called like the constellation mindset.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_04: I was hoping it's about this Angela I know so so like when we play to win yeah it's like the battle of shapes.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_04: So like when we play to win it's more like a pyramid like we're trying to get to the top and there's only like one person at the top and they have a very specific shape and so we have to fit that mold.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_04: And that's why like it just doesn't allow for really anyways of like white men at the top you know it's like that has a very specific like you have to kind of perform in a certain way to get there or whatever.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I experienced that in when I worked in in businesses like oh you gotta be tough and you gotta take what's yours and all this stuff and I'm like but that I can't do that.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_04: I don't want to do that.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_04: And um but then so oh and also like power is divided up so you're like stealing power like you kind of have to like yeah like take what's yours and like or whatever.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_04: And then in the constellation method it's really like meeting people where they're at and saying like the star in me sees the star in you and like let's see what we can make together.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like just really going into a meeting feeling like everyone there has a strength to give and everyone there matters and that they're there to like um to give their own point of view and they're you know like they're in the room they have something to give you know and I think it's so easy for us.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_04: One thing that really bothers me a lot is this are these like memes of like designers battling clients and how clients are like don't know anything and they're always just like want want and all that stuff and I'm like oh no like don't I don't know it's like if you see the client as like a potential like it's like a someone to play with or what you know it's like let's see what we can build together.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_04: It's like no one has to go in with the answer because you know like the you know the group is smart enough to like figure out what is what they need right now.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_04: You know so it's like this idea um yeah it's like you build a constellation and with that it's like power is generated it's like everyone has a place and is an important part of it and you're building something totally new that you couldn't build with any other group so it like I don't know I just like really love I think you really have to go in with a play mindset um to like have experiences like that.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_04: And then it's it really is like and then that really leads to true co-creation like you're building this with your client not for your client and um and then when you're done you like leave them and they have total ownership of it.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's why they get excited because they've been part of making this you know inviting them into the process of of the design and the strategy and all of that just gives them ownership of it and they're excited and happy to use it.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_04: They understand it and um yeah it's just like it's so fun to work with people that way.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad that you brought this up Shay has been talking about the constellation method for like the past few months and I just like as you're talking like our listeners obviously can't see the video but like Shay's face is she's sitting back and just nodding and she's like yeah like it's like so valid it's like a visual mic drop where she's like take it away Angela like I've been waiting for this well it's so funny because Angela has never talked about the constellation theory to me but she's talked about it to Melinda who we're connected through and Melinda's told it to me.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I've played this game of like telephone and I was like this sounds like the coolest idea ever.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: I hope I can get Angela to talk about on the podcast.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been bringing it up but the idea of like mission complete.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's how radical is it it's crazy because think about my whole corporate experience was someone wins if I take power you lose power there's winners and losers and it's kind of a battle and and even you're right that client um service provider dynamic is adversarial a lot of times you know and that's across industries and I hate that attitude I even say on sales calls I say like when you and I bring our brains together the final product is like more valuable you know it's that idea of like the the whole is more valuable than the parts and and I think that's beautiful and I think that's how you get buy-in and that's more fun honestly but it is sounds obvious it but it is radical like people do not operate that way you Angela has referenced all the memes like it's not the normal in this idea of like no we can actually be like nobody's on a pedestal we can look at each other as we all have different value and we fit together like this puzzle and we can generate power and growth together that's so cool.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've got goosebumps right now like I just love that idea.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah it's oh go ahead go ahead no no I was just gonna say it's um yeah like even even on um consult call calls with SEO like one of the things that I say is like this is listen this is a collaborative process dude like I can't I'm not gonna come in here and be like do this do that do this I was like you know your business you know your clients you know your goals I know SEO this only works if we can intermesh it together like it's not one person's perspective is more valuable like I can guide the project based on like the parameters of the goals for SEO specifically but it's like I can't guide shit if we're not collaborating.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like it's it's just so needed and clients they love hearing that too like think about how empowering it is for you as a client to where it's like oh good I'm not gonna work with somebody that's gonna make me feel like shit or like make me feel stupid if I don't know what I'm talking about.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like really creating again a safe space for the client to feel okay to ask questions because at the end of the day, when our service is complete with them, they have to feel empowered enough in order to move forward because at the end of the day, it's still their business.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: We can come in, we can support with whatever piece, whatever cog in the wheel that they're working on.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, all of these cogs come together and they have to feel empowered in order to use it and turn the wheel of all of the cogs.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise they're not going to have any success in their business.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like it's up to us as the service providers to be like, how can we build this foundation of safety and curiosity through communication.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that like it's so important and it's so needed.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: And like that's such like the biggest difference that I see in the way that I run my business as like a one person show versus like an agency an agency of like no no no you stop paying me you're gonna fall out of search results.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like they're fucking lying like they're lying and they're trying to tell you what to do and they're trying to like keep your money for the rest of your life.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: So like let's not let's not do it that way.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like just moving forward with like that sense of curiosity and how can we explore how can we play together I feel like it's just so fucking valuable.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah yeah like when you go into it uh with that power struggle or just coming in like I'm the expert I know everything and then like that's where I don't know I feel like it's so natural for us to like come into careers that way and like oh now I have to be the expert and and I have to perform and so I'm trying to find the answer and before the meeting it's like I remember hearing um Melinda just say something like you know you don't have to know you don't have to you can go in empty and like the concept of that being so like it was like a huge weight lifted off my shoulder like oh okay like yeah I can just go in empty.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_04: I don't have to prove or convince this client of anything like I just I'm curious I ask them what they need and if if I think it's a problem I can solve like let's do this.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if not like I'm gonna send them to someone who can because yeah it's like I don't know yeah the idea of you don't have to have all the right answers was like Melinda's big game changer for me too.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: I know and truly that that is a true expert's position of my husband just experienced this with a doctor we had a doctor he's got a bit of a medical mystery on his hands and the doctor said like treat me as if I know nothing like I literally am here to be curious and ask questions and um I'm gonna like wipe my mind for you.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we just started from square one and that was the most after two years of doctor's appointments that was the most helpful one and we got the farthest and we actually figured potentially something out.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I was just in it's the first doctor that has had true play and curiosity with us.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone else has been like these are this is the checklist and this is the box, you know, and they're coming from the expert position you know I'm this encyclopedia of knowledge and this guy was like I pretend I know nothing like let's just kind of explore this.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask some dumb questions.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it it it was a reminder to me of how that is the true expert.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: That is the true sage that's the man with wisdom right like we really I think as you learn more you realize oh shit there's a whole bunch I don't know and I think that that humility is really important.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it can come I think that you can see that when people come in they trust themselves enough to come in empty instead of I have to be the pro that has the answer to every question and I can't say I don't know because then I don't have the steering wheel anymore.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just it's liberating for everybody involved.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah yeah especially if someone is like paying you to do you know it's like oh I really have to deliver or it's gotta be great or yeah it's like you're really trying to fit the mold which is where now you're like playing to win which is like when you so I I feel like I do that all the time I like catch myself and I'm like wait I need to like step back and like let go of like the expectation that I'm trying to get to because it's it's actually like limiting me and what I can do for this client.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_04: So like we're gonna get rid of the expectations and just kind of like lay out everything in front of us and you know fine see what we've got here.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_04: And it really is like getting present with with like the information that you've got in front of you and trying to work with that versus trying to like focus on the end product you know yeah which is like where the glory is or whatever it's like I gotta let go of that you know um but yeah I think a a true sign of success of like you know a branding project that I look for is like how is a client using their brand after I've worked with them and like does it seem like they're having fun like do the grit like there's nothing more like wonderful than just like peeking into their social media feeds and like seeing all the new graphics like I you know layouts I never showed them or whatever but it's like oh they're like working with it like that's so cool or or maybe they're working with a designer and they're having fun with it you know it's like oh this is so cool.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah sometimes I'll just message them like I love this graphic.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God you're like the nicest fucking brand strategist I've literally ever heard of in my entire life.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hey Rude besides sorry Shay we never talk about you doing brand strategy we talk about sales oh my god that's so funny um I I do have a question if we could take it maybe out of business context um in terms of play just in day-to-day life outside of business I'm wondering if we can brainstorm some ideas or some questions that we can maybe start to ask ourselves either in order to get bored, in order to like move us into a space of exploration like I could set the scene, right?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: So like I'm sitting on the couch and I'm like I don't want to fucking work because I've been working and like I'm just I'm over it, but I don't want to sit here and watch Netflix and I don't feel like taking out all of my paints and shit because like that's where my brain goes where it's like we only play with board games and we only play with paint and that's it.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like if I'm in this situation, like is there any questions I could ask myself?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that I can take a step towards in order to I don't I guess give some structure in order to find play where I can explore.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: Does Makes sense.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think well going back to your astrology character because I love astrology also.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like you could maybe depending on like what house it's in, you could find like a clue in there of like what would maybe like where in life it could be helpful, like if it's in your home or something, like maybe find the thing in your house that like bugs you the mouse or something, or you wish it it was different and like imagine what it could be, or like I don't know, like if that mone money didn't matter, I don't know, just like little exercises like that.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_04: Or um I love that.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_04: I mean I always I always go to like things that I like doing when I was a little kid.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I mean, I also I have kids, so we have a lot of like coloring books and that like those are fun for me.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um but yeah, it's like what what will get me out of boredom will be different for, you know, it'll be different for everybody.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I also really love doing collage stuff of like, you know, I collect a lot of like vintage magazines and just like stickers I've had forever and that are like cool or like artwork.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um not really art, but like posters that I've just like collected and I'm like um they're building up.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like what can I do with these?
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes I'll just like cut them up and make collage.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like I'm not gonna share it on social media, I'm not gonna like do anything with it really, but it's really just to like it's so satisfying.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, I think it's just kind of looking to where uh like that satisfaction could come from, you know.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, I don't know.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is one yeah, I know I'm like, oh yeah, absolutely.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and it I I feel like it it brings it back to to problem solving, right?
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like looking around the house and being like, oh, either like organizing.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I've never I've never looked at like organizing could be play.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Cleaning could essentially be play because you're solving a problem.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like interesting because I feel I feel like now, now that we've shifted the mindset around play, it's like me for me, cooking apparently is play.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love opening up the fridge and being like, I'm setting parameters where I'm not going to the grocery store, I'm not going to pick anything up.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't defrosted any meat.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like there is nothing obvious to cook for dinner.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like opening up the fridge, opening up the cupboard, seeing what I have, and like creating a either a great or at least a decent tasting meal out of like the shit that's about to go bad.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like I guess I've never really considered that play, but I'm solving that problem like at least twice a day for lunch and dinner.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, you know what?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, that just reminded me this this can be a good way to think of the way you present your question to yourself too.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_04: There's a a toy designer that I'm totally blanking on the name, but um they were talking about, you know, like if I give, let's say there's like a group of kids and I give them, you know, a bunch of parts and I say, build a car, you know, they're you know, they'll make it or whatever.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_04: But if I give the same, you know, like another group of kids a set of like the same set of parts, and I'm like, build a way to get to school, like that is such a it's like a much better question because you're not it gets it removes that right or wrong.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_04: So like with with eating or with cooking, instead of saying like I want to make like the best pasta sauce or whatever, instead you say like, I want to create like I want to make food that makes me feel like I'm with family or some, you know, and it's like now you've got like a different way of approaching it, and there's no right or wrong.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, oh yeah, like when I was little, we had these like garlic bread things that we made out of what I, you know, and it's so like it's like you can add stuff and you're not trying to make this perfect spaghetti sauce, but you're trying to like just create an experience or like something a little bit more open-ended.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so that can be like another way to approach it too.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that perspective.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like the question that's popping up is like, how can I create something edible?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I know.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it could just be that there's a lot of people.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what one thing I think that's helpful that we've kind of circled around on is um, yeah, not to uh keep mentioning Melinda, but she told me this metaphor once of like they studied children in a schoolyard.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if there's no fence, the kids all kind of like stayed in the middle, like near each other.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as there was a fence, the kids would really spread out and they would play at like all the corners of the yard.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we kind of work like that too.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm reminded, I think part of the problem I've had this happen is like I've set aside some time in my schedule for play, like Julia Cameron artist date style, you know?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and then that time comes and I have unlimited possibilities of what play could be overwhelmed shut down and I'm overwhelmed.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_04: Just Angela, how designed to find an idea on Instagram and then you're like, And then I'm stuck in, and then I'm like, fuck, I have no time for play, and I gotta fucking, I don't know, go to bed.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we know this about like designers too, they work well with some constraints.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we can paint a box, then we can play within that box, and it kind of shuts out the information overwhelm of unlimited possibilities.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I like what you're saying, Ryan.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: You've said it too, Angela, of set up some constraints.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's ironic, but like make some rules.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I can only use what's in this fridge and I need to make something edible, right?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think that kind of like narrows it in and puts a fence around it so your brain can really play in this space and not worry about, oh, but maybe I could have done this and maybe this would have been a better use of time.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: And oh, actually, I really should have responded to those emails anyway.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm irresponsible.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you kind of can just like create a little box and play within it.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is helpful for my brain of like, all right, cooking is a good example.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how can we create some constraints around this so I can play within the form, if that makes any sense?
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that that's kind of like what I crave when it comes to play.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they say that you should play.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, but I'm a grown-ass woman and I have money and I have a car and I can literally do whatever the fuck I want to do.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, what do you want to play?
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, am I going on Airbnb?
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: Am I booking a trip?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: Am I just like doodling on paper?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's literally like unlimited possibilities of what I can do.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe maybe it'll come down to like me writing a list of all of like brainstorming, maybe that's my play for one day, brainstorming all of the different structures or constraints, like play within this, play within this, like organize what you actually want to do, right?
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: That not I want to do.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of us are detached from our want because how often are you asked, what do you want?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you want to do right now?
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: What would feel the most fun?
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: If someone asked me that, I'd be like, uh what is fun?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I love function.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: Connect with your want.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think how could you make this feel safe?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: And how could you like connect with your desire and your want?
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: And Mariah is exactly right, like make a menu or a list of things that feel fun right now.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then maybe you could go to that for next time you have a little bit of space.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: For me, if I have space, I'll pick up my phone or I'll fill it, right?
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd like to be more intentional, but where it has gone wrong in the past is the unlimited possibilities.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I need, I love this idea.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: Make a list, like menu almost choose from it.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that reminds me of um these were like my favorite projects in in like design school or whatever, uh, were like ones influenced by like data.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and where it was like you would um, you know, you would take a bunch of like random pictures and then you would take like every 20th picture and like you had to use that in some way or whatever.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like creating constraints or whatever, you know, like you just pick a number.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes like your constraints can be totally random.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_04: Let's say you want to like I I want to like drive, I love driving.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_04: So then you say, like, okay, I'm just gonna turn, like you write out a list of like left, right, left, right, or whatever.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, okay, I'm gonna take this route and just see where it takes.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_04: It's like it doesn't even have to end in anything because you're just like exploring and getting out of your comfort zone.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_04: You're going to like the edges of that fence or whatever, and just like seeing what's there.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes something cool is there, or sometimes like nothing is there.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_04: But um yeah, it's like you're playing, so it doesn't really matter.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like you just play until the sun goes down or the the whistle is called to come in from recess or like you know, that kind of play.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it just it reminded me of how much I really because I was um I was a design major as well for for only a year in college, but like it just reminds me of how much like I really thrived in that particular scenario of like, okay, you have to do this, this, and this.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, at first, especially me being an asshole back then, I literally would roll my eyes and be like, ugh, how lame, what lame constraints they're giving me.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm looking back and I'm like, I created some cool ass shit with those lame constraints.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like that was actually fun.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: And like, that's why I love going to like art classes and workshops and like local things like that, because like you choose the one that's like that you want to explore, and then they give you constraints of like this is what we're gonna create, but it can look any way you want.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I did want to bring up this other, this other way that I just thought of of creating constraints for yourself, because this is how I operate.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: Start with what you don't want to do, of being like, okay, I'm not in the mood for this, I'm not in the mood for that.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me, it'll be like, okay, I have space to do something, but I'm not getting in the car.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not driving anywhere.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, so what can I do?
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, okay, well, I don't feel like watching Netflix.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be on my phone and I don't want to work on shit for business.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like looking around and being like, okay, what doesn't fit those parameters?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like the the inverted way of creating constraint.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's smart, especially if a lot of us don't know what we want.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: Where is the logical place to start?
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: Start with what you don't want, right?
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then reverse engineering.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_04: And that, yeah, that I think is what will like lead you into boredom because it's like these are all the things I don't want to do.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_04: Now I'm bored.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_04: You're right.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_04: That's where you need to be.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_04: And then yeah, it's like I'm gonna listen to music really loud and dance or whatever, you know, like whatever you decide to do.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, I love that.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: So Angela, talk to me a little bit about um, you know, I I'm curious, you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast that there is like it's so it sounds so funny, like literature on play, but like what do the smart people say about play?
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I know you've kind of um dug through the facts and the figures.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what did you learn about play on us as humans more from like a scientific or data perspective?
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, a lot of I went through a lot of academic papers like on um Google Scholar, which I feel like is so helpful.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_04: Like if there's any topic, there is someone who has written a detailed thesis about it on Google Scholar.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um and yeah, I found a lot of people write about play in terms of how of like the developing mind as like a kid.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_04: And um and really like there have been the ones that I found really interesting were um were like the theory of loose parts, where it's just like um, and when I think of like Legos almost, it's like you just have a bunch of loose parts.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I I loved playing with Legos when I was little.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's like you could make anything.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I think too, when I was little, there were no like like you there weren't a lot of like sets, like Lego sets when we were little.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_04: So it really was just like playing and making whatever.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_04: But um another thing that I thought was really interesting was um like the more you can expose kids to different types of like sensory experiences, um the more or like hands-on stuff, um, the more uh like the human brain can learn about life.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_04: So now play is actually teaching you about life.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_04: So for instance, like if you have a little kid playing with bubbles, it's like they're going to learn about gravity because it's like the bubbles go down, and like they're they're learning all of this other stuff that is like applicable to the world we live in, and and you know, and they learn about like the viscosity and how it, you know, it can be different from water and um uh and then also like their breath, and so it's like it's not so now play is is just like kind of informing your worldview, um, which I I really liked that a lot.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_04: I thought that was interesting.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_04: And then also just letting kids like uh there have been studies where, yeah, just like kind of letting them roam or like do whatever they want kind of thing.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_04: There's a museum in uh there was I found this to be really, really interesting.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_04: There's a museum, I think it was in New York, and um and they just had like uh like wood and just like stuff that you would use for like construction.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_04: They had like hammers and nails and they just let like kids play in this way.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like there was nothing like the kids kind of like built their own play structures, and um which I feel like this would never be allowed now, but like uh the space always changed, like depending on what kids were in there.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_04: And so it was like this experiment with a playground and what what it means to be a playground.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_04: And um, but I loved that where it was just like it had that ability to adapt to whatever kids were there.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_04: Like sometimes they would build like a little house or like a hut and they would all like hang out inside, or sometimes they'd build a table or whatever.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh and then there was another um one where they they watched uh it's like just letting kids be curious and having different kinds of um like sensory stuff.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_04: Like one of them they had it was like um a little kid that and like those um you know those like colored gel thing or whatever, they're like really thin pay like translucent papers or whatever.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_04: And so like over time the kid figured out that like if you sprayed um water on the window and like it could it would make it stick to the window.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_04: So then they like started layering different colors, but like the adult in the room like didn't show them how to do that and like letting kids discover it on their own, it's like you learn it so much bigger, it like creates a bigger impact in in like your discovery, which um I thought was really cool because as a parent, like I always want to like show them all the cool parts of it, and it's like no, I gotta just like back out and let them like discover it on their own because they'll just like appreciate it more.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, like it'll make a bigger impact.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so yeah, I thought those were kind of like the biggest, and then also reframing that question of like um, you know, instead of saying build a car, saying build a way to get to work or something.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_04: I love those kinds of toys that are um just like more kinetic, or there's a another toy designer that creates these toys where um they're they're building blocks for kids, but they're pretty safe and or they're very safe.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_04: And but what's cool about the pieces is that it takes you have to have more than one kid to like move them.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_04: So like you always have to play together, um, and you always have to build something together.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like designed for play together, which I thought was really cool.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know what's popping to my in my mind immediately is I um the same college friends who were talking about being bored, there are a lot of them are occupational therapists or they work with little kids, and they were talking about that's like a therapist strategy.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: You always instead of going in with today, we're gonna work on fine motor skills with this one activity, instead, you go in with what feels like play?
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want to play with today?
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they grab a Spider-Man doll.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then you you kind of follow their interests and their curiosity, and then you weave your lesson in and whatever they're finding playful and engaging right now.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we learn fine motor skills by working with Spider-Man and having him pick things up and do things, right?
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's almost like you can't go in with this rigidity.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to have some like play and flow, and that is how kids learn best because their attention is there.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking that doesn't that doesn't stop at kids, you know, like this very much extends to our clients.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Angela, we learned this of you want to learn what the client finds valuable, where is the client's interest right now, what are the clients' dreams, and then you want to weave what you do through that lens.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's all this idea of play mindset.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: How can we approach all of these things with play and play for the person that we're talking with is play as ourselves, you know, and like it's so fun and empowering.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like I am gonna get off this call really like inspired.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_04: No, that's awesome.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think too, like with uh with clients, like allowing them to discover things and knowing, like, you know, even if we know the advice to give them or like the answer they're looking for, it's like instead of just telling them what to do, like asking them more questions and like letting them discover it on their own.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_04: And um, you know, asking, yeah, just like kind of prompting it and and like letting them discover it on their own is like so helpful.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_04: And then it's I don't know, it's just like it's so cool to to have happen and it's just like so much more powerful than if you were like, well, what you need to do is this.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_04: Because yeah, it's like, I don't know.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like I think, and obviously I don't have a study in front of me or anything, but I feel like it creates like a deeper, stronger neural pathway in the brain because like you have physically like connected one part to the other.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it just reminds me of like driving and like directions, right?
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like for me, if I'm following Siri or following Apple Maps and I'm just like looking down at turn right, turn left, turn this, turn that, I don't remember how I got there because I'm just following some directions.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: But once I'm like, okay, I'm gonna figure out how to get there without Siri, like maybe I'm being lazy that day, don't feel like pulling it up.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, let me see if I can remember.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: After I've done it once on my own and I've had to like look around me to be like, okay, there's the tree on the left.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: That means I'm taking the street on the right.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: Once you have to figure it out without somebody telling you, it creates that deeper connection in your memory.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, then in terms of driving, I can get to that next place without using Siri like ever again, because it's like I figured out and creatively problem solved my way to get there.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'll be like, oh shit, this doesn't look right.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_00: I took a left and it's like next time I know, we don't take a left at this one, it's the next one.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like using these past experiences to get us to where we want to go because it just gets cemented a lot better.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's such a that's such a good uh like analogy or uh to go with it.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_04: Cause yeah, it's like when you're doing it on your own without that thing that's telling you where to go, without Siri, whatever, it's like you are pulled into the present moment and you have to be very aware.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe that's all like this kind of play is is like just being very present and being like, I don't know, that is also very abstract because I remember hearing that before too, and being like, what does that even mean?
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, yeah, it's like really looking at what's in front of you and not trying to like uh yeah, like not trying to get to a specific point, but just yeah, like looking at everything around you and look, you know, it's like tapping into those sensory uh uh things, you know, and really I don't know, just experiencing things in a Different way.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: I have a fun question if we just want to go around.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_00: What did you like to do as a child where it's like you really enjoyed playing?
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was sitting here like, I wonder if I could ask everybody a question.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm going to say, like, I'm going to go around and ask everybody a question.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then my question was going to be, I want to hear three things that you liked to do as a child.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God, that's hilarious.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: So well, now we have to do it.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_04: Now we have to do it.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: She you go first.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_04: I love that.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I can go first.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_04: I uh okay, the things that are coming at my head.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_04: I was always outside.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_04: So my friend Jill and I would either be like in the park or we would go in her tree.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_04: We were always like outside doing something like that.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and it was always like pretend, like we would just play pretend, like we were runaway kids and this was our house now or whatever.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_04: Like it was always something like that.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_04: And then um I played a ton of Legos.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_04: That was like a huge part of my childhood.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_04: I just remember a huge cardboard box of like all my Legos and I loved them so much.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_04: And then um, let's see, what else do I remember doing as a kid?
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_04: I would say so I grew up in a in a neighborhood like with a ton of kids, and I lived in um in like a court, so there's like this big open space in front of our house, and um every single night in the summer, all the kids would come out and we would play kick the can and like it was just so fun.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_04: It was like a very like full neighborhood experience, and I'm like, who plays kick the can anymore?
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, we just like played it until everyone's mom or dad would like come get them.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, those are like the things that stand out the most for me.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_00: I love those.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: I used to play something similar where it was like yeah, like in terms of like playing pretend and just being outside and being like, this is our home now.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: We ran away from our parents, and I gotta like making up these fucking scenarios.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, yeah, good for us.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm gonna go, yeah, yeah.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_04: I like that.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_04: The other thing, if if we had to play inside, we always played office, and it was always like we have to sneak into the office, and there are lasers everywhere.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my god, how fun! And that's why like go through and like find the documents and then sneak back out.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's why the floor is lava, I think became so big on Netflix for kids and stuff, is because parents remembered playing it and they're like, Oh, they created a show on it, and it's like, yeah, yeah, this makes me want to like get my friends together and just play some dumb shit.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love okay.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love this.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, so I thought of three of them.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_00: The first one, so the first one that I used to do is draw.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_00: I literally would just take my pencil and draw anything.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to draw from like other materials, and I was also a little perfectionist.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would literally like try to redraw Cinderella, but my mom always told me that if I traced, I was a cheater.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I couldn't be a cheater and I had to freehand everything.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I became a really phenomenal drawer as a little kid because my mom was like, you're not allowed to trace, that's cheating.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Well, I'm a perfectionist and I can't cheat.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it looks like I'm freehanding.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: So drawing was like something where I would just like lose myself for a while.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the other thing is I used to, I liked creating games.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: So whether it was like somebody was sleeping over, I was by myself, I would create these games.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_00: I used to have hamsters, and obviously everybody had like VHS tapes, right?
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I would create mazes out of the VHS tapes and make like put food at the end and like try to see if the hamsters would like get their way out of the maze.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And like we could do that for literal hours.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last thing, we had we had something similar in our neighborhood where it was like a lot of kids in the neighborhood.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And one of our favorite things was choosing new areas in the neighborhood to create forts.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: So there was like we were surrounded by parks and like forests and stuff.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, like the one, the one fort, dude, it was so sick.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was in my friend's backyard.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_00: We dug this like eight foot deep, like 10 foot by like 20 foot hole, and we created this like huge fort underneath this log.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And like, then we would go garbage picking.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we would go garbage picking to find like old things like chairs, and we would hammer and nail the chairs into spaces.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_00: We had some old bike and we tested out hanging this bike from a tree to make like a bike swing, and like we stole somebody's garbage can and like would get in the garbage can and try to like, I don't know, create like a swing off of a tree, and then people would fall because we weren't strong enough and like didn't know how to tie knots properly.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And like just it's so funny now because now I'm considering like getting into like furniture flipping and like garbage picking old stuff and like seeing what I can create out of it and like going garage sailing with Andrew and like flipping stuff.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm just thinking back to like, you know, I used to love garbage picking and like going to garage sales and just seeing what I could create from like all of this old shit.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, this is very, this is very interesting.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was just about to bring that up for you, Mariah.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I have been thinking about this lately for myself and how could I do some of the things I enjoyed it as a kid more?
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's been like the constraints I've been asking.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_01: So when you were talking, Mariah, I was like, no wonder you've been into yard sailing.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: You're like pulling this bit that you loved as a kid.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it kind of like brings back some of that play.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And there is some like unknown and mystery, and you guys are like flipping things and looking for treasures.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because you're like, what can I do with this?
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah, it's all yeah, it's all like a treasure hunt and problem solving.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I really never connected the dots, but like also we were pretty poor when I was younger, so it was like garage selling is like how I got toys and stuff.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so my mom would just give me like a dollar or two dollars, and I'd have to find the street sale in the neighborhood and be like, oh yeah, we need this.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And like now I'm just tapping into that.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, yo, that's this shit's cool, and a dollar is worth a fucking lot at a garage sale.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can get a lot for a dollar.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's wild, especially with inflation and shit.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, yo, people still have garage sale prices, things for 25 cents, 10 cents, 50 cents.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this is absurd.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is absurd.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_00: I can I can fill up a room with a dollar.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_03: No, yeah.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_04: I remember garage sales being so like wonderful as a kid.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_04: Like we would just be on our bikes all day.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_04: Like our if our neighborhood had a garage sale, like a neighborhood-wide garage sale, that was like the best day.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, it's like so exciting.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's funny, Mariah, you're telling the masses about our garage sale plans.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Angela, you don't know that Mariah and I got on a call earlier this week and talked for like an hour about what good of a time it is to yard sale right now.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_02: So that's awesome.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea that I used to do this when I was a kid.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like it literally just fell in now.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, my God, I used to do this shit as a kid.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_00: No wonder it's like, yeah, it's so and now I have a car.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now I have a car to like go farther and get cooler shit and bring it home that like doesn't have to fit in my backpack.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go this weekend.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_01: That that's like a kid thing I used to enjoy and feels fun right now.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_04: I remember there's a show, Trading Spaces, on when I was little, and I like thought that that was so because they do they'll they'll have like a really small budget and they'll be like, look what we did with this.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes it's like terrible, but sometimes it was like really cool.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Oh wow, like I started seeing all of our furniture in different ways, and even just like what we had at home, and like, oh, what if we took everything off of this and used it as something else?
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's like I don't know.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_01: I loved that show, yeah.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, can I do mine now?
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, please.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yard sailing obviously has been an issue that's gotten me jazzed lately.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I, you know, I played a ton of video games as a kid, and actually in another one of our episodes this season, I I've like the metaphor of a video game has been very powerful for me now as an adult, and just thinking about, and I talk about it more in our episode with Monique.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right, Mariah?
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_01: But just thinking about like this is the level I'm on right now.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm building up my muscles, I'm adding to my shield, I'm strengthening, sharpening my sword, and I'll beat this boss, but then there's a next boss, right?
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just and I'll get my ass kicked for a while, and like that's just the way of it.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it helps me.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I I video games have been like, I still play them when I'm working the summer.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Slay the spire, baby.
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_01: This summer I have I've been taking breaks with video games.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, Angela, I keep cutting you off.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_01: But like basically, instead of doom scrolling, I've been trying to intentionally, I'm gonna go play this game.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've been obsessed with Slay the Spire.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and it's fun, it's a little bit of fun, little fun bits throughout my day.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been loving that.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sorry, Angela, go ahead.
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_04: No, no, I was just like relating to this so much because yeah, like video games were a huge part of my childhood too.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it also like is such a good thing to just teach you about failure.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_04: Of like, yeah, like there's so much frustration designed into the game that it like it really helps you become okay with like trying so hard and then failing.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, okay, I gotta try it again, especially with Atari, where like there was no saving your game.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_04: Like, if you died, you went to back back to like level one.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, I think that's why I didn't like video game work.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I cannot fail.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is dumb on this picture until it's perfect.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_00: I am not going to play something that will allow me to fail.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, something else I realized about myself.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking back, what did we do as a kid?
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we were outside all the time, Angela.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_01: I had the same experience.
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_01: But what my friends and I were always doing was we were always starting businesses.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if it wasn't eliminated, we were putting on a circus and we were trying to sell tickets to the circus.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we were always trying to like make money and hustle.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and that has been validating for me, you know, when I have tough days as an entrepreneur, I'm like looking at LinkedIn and I'm like, no, Shay, remember who you were.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have loved this from day one.
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've always had that entrepreneurship bug.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that was like kind of validating for me to reconnect with of like, no, you do really want this.
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of love it, and you've always kind of loved it.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_01: That was um encouraging for me when times get rough.
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing I've been exploring lately, I loved writing poetry as a little kid.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I even had teachers tell me, you're really good at this.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I also had my parents being like, what?
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_01: What are you gonna do with that?
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna be a poet.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I like shut it down pretty quickly when I shut down, like I'm not a creative.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I want to take a poetry class.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, maybe this is like still in me, you know?
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so that I think it's powerful to think.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't even thought about what I used to like to do as a kid, but I've been exploring that.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's also very water sign, it's very water sign if you want to be a poet.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_01: As I'm reconnecting, Angela, I'm triple water sign, so it's all all the fields over here all the time.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_01: So using astrology to kind of bring more awareness.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, that's what I like to do and why that's been cool too.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I know we're running close on time, but I want to make sure that we get our final question in for you, Angela.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Would you mind telling us?
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about what sparked your curiosity as a child.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_01: What's currently sparking your curiosity?
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you getting lost in these days?
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_04: Right now, okay, so one of my clients um that I've talked about a lot, um, so Shay, you probably know, is she's a phenatologist.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_04: So she studies with death and dying.
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_04: And one of the things that I learned from working with her is like a way to grieve loss, any kind of loss, not just loss of life, but just loss of like something you had before, um is to like make stuff.
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_04: So I have been, um I recently learned how to how to make Plarn.
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I feel like it like it's like plastic yarn.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you can make it out of like a plastic bag.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I feel like it's my way of like grieving like the planet of like of just like environmental changes and like anything that's like happening environmentally.
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_04: So I've used it as a way to like, so I've been like crocheting with them and making like um rugs or whatever, and like, but it really is like I I just learned how to crochet, so it's like kind of novel to me.
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, and just like using it with the plastic bags, and it's just like a really good release of like just like I don't know, there's something when you when you turn like grieving thoughts into like something physical, it like helps you um like uh like not accept it, but it just helps you through that process more.
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_04: So it's been actually really helpful of like I don't know of just like doing something with it instead of just like getting so uh like upset or angry or like scared of of anything like that.
• 1:20:05
  SPEAKER_04: So that has been like full body chills, that's cool.
• 1:20:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so yeah, I'm just like that is like what I've been doing.
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_00: I wish everybody could see my face.
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm literally like, what the actual fuck in a good way, not in a fucking bad way.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_00: You literally you're wrapping in so many deep things with something that's literally like a fucking plastic bag.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And like I think that's what I love about it so much.
• 1:20:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's literally just like the depths of despair and grief, how we process that is literally like cutting up a plastic bag and then also learning how to like crochet with it, making Plarn.
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Who the fuck knew what Plorn was?
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_03: I know, I know.
• 1:20:50
  SPEAKER_03: Angela, you're cool.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's what in Angela's business.
• 1:20:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I love why it's it's subtle design co, but like she had drops subtle bombs.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like she's just so you gotta like listen close and you're like, And you're like, wait a second, what?
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_00: She doesn't like like it's no big deal.
• 1:21:06
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, Yeah, I'm like learning to process grief through like cutting up plastic bags and learning how to crochet with plastic and turning it into rugs.
• 1:21:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, um, come again.
• 1:21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, honestly, for me, that's about my curiosity is grief.
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm realizing I'm not very in touch with my own grief.
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_01: This can be our next episode together, perhaps.
• 1:21:27
  SPEAKER_01: But like I I think that us being able to talk about grief right now in fine constructive ways and bring a play mindset into being honest about what is here right now, which is hard for me.
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_01: I want to just like move right on by.
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that was so profound, just that everything you've said, but that in was incredible.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think grief is worth exploring.
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we maybe play, you can use play as a way to like work through grief.
• 1:21:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lovely way to wrap this up.
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:21:54
  unknown: Cool.
• 1:21:54
  unknown: Okay.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_00: We we have one more question, and I promise then then we'll allow you to exit stage left.
• 1:22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Can you can you just tell our listeners where they can find and where they can connect with you?
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 1:22:07
  SPEAKER_04: So uh maybe the best place to connect with me is on Instagram.
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just at Angela Ficcarelli.
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you can find the spelling from the title of I'm sure you'll have it in there.
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, like I I am usually on there the most.
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I do have um like a Substack uh like blog, I don't know what to call it.
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's free right now.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_04: Like you don't, there's not like a paid option, but um I would I would really appreciate like if you I don't know if you found any value in what I said today, like you'd probably like the stuff that I write in Substack.
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um so that is like a good place to find me as well.
• 1:22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us really quick?
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Mariah asked me this and I didn't have the best answer.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_01: What is Substack for those of us that don't know?
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_04: It's like uh it's kind of like medium.
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's like a publishing platform.
• 1:23:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it it a lot of writers like it because you can you can have like subscription-based content.
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um so you can have like your free content, but then also have your subscribers pay like you know, five dollars.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_04: It's kind of like Patreon and Medium all wrapped into one.
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I like it because it just it emails everyone.
• 1:23:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like if you sign up for someone's Substack, it'll just email you the article.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um and you can do any kind of you can put in video, you can put in audio only, you can do, you can type.
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_04: I usually type with like illustrations.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, it's like so yeah, I think that is a good way to sum it up.
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_04: I haven't done any like paid stuff yet because I haven't I would like to get to that point eventually.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and maybe offer like I don't know, I like to do a lot of like how to organize notes and do stuff for notion and stuff like that.
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't know.
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_04: If I were to start offering like templates and stuff like that, I would probably charge for that content.
• 1:24:17
  SPEAKER_04: But right now it's just like it's really just a way for me to like get my thoughts out and really like understand my own point of view on what I do and all of that.
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_01: So well, I'm a notion nerd, so I'm definitely excited if that ever comes.
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm definitely gonna subscribe anyway because I love how you think and talk about things.
• 1:24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um thanks.
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds like a really cool platform.
• 1:24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I um yeah, it's just I like what you said.
• 1:24:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like four writers.
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's like a nice way to phrase it.
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I thought I felt like a lot of writers that I follow use that.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_04: And so I just, I don't know, it seemed trustworthy.
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 1:24:59
  SPEAKER_01: All right, well, make sure to hit Angela up on Instagram or check out her Substack.
• 1:25:04
  SPEAKER_01: We certainly will be.
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think with that, we're gonna shut this episode down.
• 1:25:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed the episode today, feel free to share it with someone you think would love it or on social media.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_01: If something really stood out to you, totally DM us.
• 1:25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we love connecting with you.
• 1:25:19
  SPEAKER_01: We want to hear what resonates, um, what is sparking your curiosity right now.
• 1:25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, reach out if you ever want to.
• 1:25:25
  SPEAKER_01: We love chatting with you.
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and of course, as always, thank you guys so much for listening.
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't yet, make sure that you subscribe to the podcast, leave us a five-star review.
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_00: It really does help us in the algorithm with all of the things.
• 1:25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, it just helps us all really grow together.
• 1:25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And until next time, remember that you have the power to create whatever the fuck you want.
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Follow the nudge, ask the questions, and let curiosity guide the way.
• 1:25:56
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you in the next episode.