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Emotional Trauma & The Brain with Sarah Peyton. From the archives. · The Trauma Therapist

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Or welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gay mckperson.
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My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be human,
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to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
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who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
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authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more
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about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com.
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That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, all right,
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guys, welcome back to the podcast. My name is Gay mckperson and very
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excited to introduce my guest today, Sarah Peyton. Sarah welcome, Thank you
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very much guy. It's lovely to be here, all right. So,
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Sarah is a certified trainer of non violent Communication, which teaches people how language
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changes relationship and the brain. She works with audiences internationally to create a compassionate
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understanding of the effects of relational trauma on the brain and writes about and teaches
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people how words change and heal us. Her special interest is the way that
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difficult events impact are automatic brain patterning and how to transform our tendencies towards self
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criticism into self warmth. Her first book, Your Resonant Self guided Meditations and
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Exercises to engage your brain's capacity for healing, is coming out from Norton Publishing.
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In fact, is it already out? Yes, it is out.
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Okay, so it's out. Awesome, Well, Sarah, welcome again,
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Shaw with the listeners. Where you're calling from, where you're from, and
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then let's go sure. I am here just north of Portland, Oregon,
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in Vancouver, Washington and grew up in Fairbanks, Alaska. So nice.
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Yeah, well, coulations, I was just congratulations on that book coming out
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already. That's awesome. Um. All right, so you know we talked
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a little bit about kind of before we were recording. I asked you about
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your your quote to get things going here wyn you I'm gonna ask you to
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share that with our listeners and we'll kind of unpack that. Yeah, it's
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really the essence of the book. It's about making a differentiation between between responding
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to people simply with warmth and responding to them with warm precision, so really
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giving people a sense of being understood. And the quote is is resonance not
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reassurance. Resonance not re assurance. Okay, so you kind of explained it
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a little bit about what it was before you said the quote. So let's
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let's just kind of break that down. Yeah. Um, when we're thinking
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about being with somebody who's had a difficult time, or when we ourselves are
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connecting with a past memory or a self, when we ask people what would
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you like to say to this previous self, they'll often say, or what
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would you like to say to this person who's had a hard time? They'll
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often say It's going to be all right, which is a very beautiful and
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sweet and warm way to respond to someone who's had a difficult time, but
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it doesn't in any way capture anything of the specifics of what the person has
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been through. It's a bit sorry, It's a little bit like putting a
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very large band aid over a cut and um smearing you know, um antibottic
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cream over the whole area, and flapping this huge band aige on and um
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and and certainly, warmth has its place, just as an enormous response would
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have its place to to some sort of cut or injury. But what might
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really be helpful is to clean the dirt of the wound and you know,
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give it a good wash and make sure that there's nothing left in there,
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and to see if it's deep enough that it needs stitches. And it's a
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bit. It's a bit like that. That's a metaphor for the way that
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we can bring language to connection in a very different way than what we're used
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to, so that instead of saying it's going to be all right, we
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might say, I wonder if you were really frightened by what happened and if
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you're just so needing to know that you are safe and that your needs matter,
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which is a it's just different, like what is the emotional tone of
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the experience and what is the person longing for? And are we able to
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make it as a you know, ask it as a question so that the
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person actually can be in dialogue about what their experience was like, because there's
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really no answer to it's going to be all right. It's kind of like
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you you you get hug and you know you're safe, but talking about yeah,
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but that's good too. Yeah, you know, it's totally good.
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It's just not transformative. What I'm hearing it sounds like place cliche to say
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this, but what I'm hearing you say Sarah is. It's almost sounds like
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the difference between talking to a friend and talking to what someone you would go
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like a healer or a therapist or whatever, right I mean? And maybe
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they both have their time and place. But that key word transformative is very
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telling to me. Let's uh, let's kind of move on here. And
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I'm really curious to see how this has has emerged in your journey here.
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So how did how did you get interested in this topic? And I want
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you to tell us that the story in a sense, yes, absolutely,
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my I have. There are two pieces of this story, and one is
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that I met Marshall Rosenberg, who is the man who wrote the book A
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Language of Life, the Language of Nonviolent Communication, and and I was very
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interested in his language based approach to really thinking about the nuts and bolts of
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communication. And when I went to I listened to everything I could get my
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hands on. And so then when I went to hear him speak, he
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actually had kind of a whole script that he would go through that was very
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much like his recordings. And and so I was sitting there going, gosh,
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I know what he's saying by heart. I can predict the next word.
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What am I going to do. I've come to this workshop. Somebody
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in the workshop stood up and said, I'm going to do an empathy circle
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in the other room if anybody wants to come. So I was like,
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okay, I'm going to try something new, and I went over to this
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empathy circle and I was working on at the time, we had just adopted
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did our son, who is also part two of this story. But he
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was he was He was about fifteen at the time that we adopted him,
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and I could not bring myself to hug him. And I was like,
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there's this kid, he's come off the streets. He needs to be hugged.
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I cannot hug him. And I felt so ashamed by it. I
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just couldn't even tell anybody that I knew that. I felt like my warmth
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circuits were defective. And so I started to talk about this in this circle
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that had a bunch of people in it. I didn't know them. I
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figured I'd never see them again. And instead of telling me what to do,
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which is what my traditional experience had been about trying to bring anything to
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being spoken of, they instead of saying, well, why don't you try
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this, or did you try breath or have you tried meditating or m that's
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silly. Why why would you even think that? You know, they started
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to guess the deeper longings in my experience. You know, I was I
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feeling Was I feeling anxious? Was I so wanting there to be a sense
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of connection? Was I was I worried? Did I want protection and care
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and safety for everyone? And as they kind of made these what are traditional
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guesses in the world of nonviolence communication, they call them empathy guesses, I
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felt like I was in a boat in a huge storm, and my little
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boat was going down into the waves of my emotions and then coming up and
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kind of peaking and hearing these wonderings about what was really at the base of
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things for me. And there was something about them assuming my good intentions that
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moved me and started to shift my experience. And all of a sudden,
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in the middle of this being held very sweetly, I had a physical memory
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of reaching out to try to hug my mom when I was a toddler and
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feeling her body stiffen and recoil from me, and the terrible wave of shame
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that came down over me, and it kind of prevented me in a way
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from ever reaching out to anybody again. And in that moment, it was
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like the physical strait jacket that I had been in that was preventing me from
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reaching out was dissolved, and I was able to easily imagine hugging my son,
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which was very sweet for the next part of this story. So I
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became so interested. I'd never experienced my own neuroplasticity before. I'd never really
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had a sense before that I could be changed, let alone changed by language.
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I was just like, Wow, this is amazing, what's going on.
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And simultaneously, the world of relational neuroscience was opening up what Daniel Siegel
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calls interpersonal neurobiology, looking at how we as humans are changed by the relationships
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we're in. So my study began out of kind of this place of stunned
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delight that I possible, you know, to move emotionally and that and that
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started on. Meanwhile, this is the second part, and this is why
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the book was written. My our adopted son who came he was homeless at
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the time that he came to live with us. I mean, he had
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had really difficult and terrible trauma experiences UM that UM that led to him bringing
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an addiction with him when he was when he was when he came to live
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with us, he was really struggling with the addiction. And so I started
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to learn everything I could possibly learn about trauma, everything I could learn about
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trauma to try to understand what we could do, how what kind of therapy
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we could get him into, what kind of care we could have taken for
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him, what kind of addiction support might work for him. We did not
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end up being able to save his life. He ended up dying at the
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age of thirty three of chronic alcoholic Yeah. Well to hear that, well,
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thank you. Yeah, it was about four and a half years ago.
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And but my search am my longing to be able to understand and make
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accessible all of this incredible trauma healing material that's been coming out of the world
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of relational sce neuroscience resulted in this book, Your Resonant Self and yeah,
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so guided meditations and exercises to engage your brain's capacity for healing. Thank thank
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you for sharing that story. I mean, it's I have so many questions,
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but I want to go back to really what is the germ of what
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you're saying? And there's a difference between um I guess it's kind of symbolizing
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your quote resonance, not reassurance. Um, So when you were in that
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empathy circle, it was they were they were asking you. You said,
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you know, they weren't telling you or offering suggestions, what did you try
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this or try that? But it was what they were asking, how they
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were the fact that they were simply asking questions. It wasn't just it wasn't
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just that they were questions. It was that they were assuming that there was
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a really sweet intention and deep value and need that lay below my emotional experience.
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They were assuming that yeah, yeah, there's yeah, and and really,
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as I've gone on, what this takes us into is this takes us
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into what I call resonant language, right hemisphere language. You probably know that
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most of the centers of language use in the left hemisphere. So as soon
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as we open our mouths, we're pulled into the left hemisphere, which is
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the instrumental brain. It's the brain, but it's a part of the brain
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for which other people don't really exist as infinite and amazing beings. They exist
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as tools to get things done or functions to support us, or we exist
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as functions to support them. I am a mother, this is my child.
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I have to do things this way because this is the way mothers are
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with children. Yeah. So it's kind of a functional brain that we access
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mostly with our language use. And as we start to look at what are
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the kinds of language use that awaken the right hemisphere, the relational brain,
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what brings us into a relation. Relational space is surprisingly fluid. People long
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to be understood with warmth and precision by one another. It is our deepest
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longing to be known in that way, and it settles nervous systems, and
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it calms people, and it heals trauma. Could you can you give us
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an example of maybe what that would look like if it Yeah? Sure,
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so an example of what that would look like would be um uh. Let's
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see, I was working with a young mother who was frightened of her of
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her son's face when he was when he was angry. Um, and she
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thought all kinds of really intense things about how he was going to grow up
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to be a criminal, or that he was going to harm women, and
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and and so I had been talking. She had heard me speak publicly about
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trauma and about the way in which our brains create emotional memories, and anything
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that reminds us of any of the cues that were a part of our emotional
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memory take us right back into that emotional memory. So, for example,
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if you had an experience with somebody who had an angry face and you were
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hurt or really frightened, then when you see an angry face again, especially
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one that reminds you of the original angry face, your body might even freeze
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from going back into the original experience of the danger. And she said,
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I think there's something like that going on with me and my son. I
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said, oh, she said, she said, his father used to beat
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me. And I said and I said, oh, are you still living
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with him? And she said, no, my son and I no longer
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live with him. And I said, well, what was the worst moment.
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She said, it was the night that the police were called. And
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I said, well, let's just we're gonna step through time and space.
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We're going to bring empathy guesses directly too, the person that you were the
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night that the police were called. And so we stepped through time and space.
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We found her. She was curled up in a corner so that she
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would be she was actually in the memory. She was nine months pregnant,
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and she was curled around her baby, trying to make sure that he would
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be safe or in this experience of domestic violence. And at the moment that
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were that we went to, the police were banging on the door. So
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we made everything quiet so that we could make empathy guesses for the woman.
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We made her safe, We immobilized the man who was harming her, and
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made those empathy guesses. Is this really scary? Have you frozen? Have
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you stopped breathing? She said, I'm terrified that my baby is gonna die.
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And we stayed with that. This was happening on a break during a
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public workshop, and and so I was just I was like, wow,
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this is really big, this is really intense. I was worried inside myself.
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This is going to take longer than what said I've got and this seems
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really important. I don't want to abandon this woman. And and I said
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how, And so like we spoke directly to her in the memory, do
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you need acknowledgement? They are terrified your baby's gonna die. You really want
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your baby to be okay? And she said yes, And I said,
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what's the next thing? She said, that's the only thing, And I
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said, wow, how is it for her that we are acknowledging this and
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she said, it's really good. She's standing up. I said, she's
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standing up. She said yes. I said, well, see if she
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wants to come to present time with us, and she said, yes,
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she does. She wants to meet my baby. She wants to know that
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he made it. And so we had a sense of this movement through time
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and space, which is a beautiful kind of narrative encapsulation of the contextualization of
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traumatic experience or traumatic memory. And and I said, well, what happens
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when you think of your of your child's face now? And she said,
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oh, he doesn't. He doesn't look like his father anymore at all.
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He looks like me too. He's just an angry little guy. I wonder
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what he's so mad about. And she wrote me three months later, I
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think, and let me know that it was still the work we had done
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in those I don't know if it was three minutes or five minutes that that
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work was stable, that she was no longer experiencing her little boy as being
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dangerous. So here's a beautiful example of the way that resonance, rather than
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reassurance, allows there to be a warm inquiry about what is most important?
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And yeah, how's this to hear? A guy? This is really really
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good. I mean it's so just fascinating and inspiring to me that, uh,
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you know, you've worked to meet people in this way. Um,
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I it feels so good. It feels so good. I am curious as
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to how, um, you might have imagined a therapist maybe who doesn't isn't
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familiar with this approach might have worked with that woman. Um, I'm not
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m or let me let me rephrase the question. Maybe maybe someone who represented
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more of a reassurance aspect might have might have worked. Now are you are?
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Do you work as a counselor a therapist, a psychologist? What is
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your background? My background, interestingly enough, is largely teaching public public workshops
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okay in the personal growth and transformation world that talk about how language is either
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relational or instrumental. Okay, And so as I talk about this and people
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just kind of come to me or stand up in the workshops and ask,
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you know, ask that we could have a dialogue with their younger part.
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So my work, I'm not a therapist, but I think deeply about this,
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uh, and speak and teach and write about how language changes us right,
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right, right, okay, thank you? Yeah? So yeah,
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so, I mean, I don't know. I guess my question is do
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I do would like to get more clarity on what it would be like for
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maybe for for someone to approach us from a reassurance aspect to make clear that
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distinction, and maybe yeah, yeah, so a reassurance aspect would be bringing
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that it's going to be all right. You'd say, I'm imagining that it
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would be possible to say to a client, what do you want to say
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to your younger part? And the client would say, oh, I want
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them to know it's going to be all right, And then it kind of
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stops there because where do you go for it? You don't there's there's not
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any there's a there's not room for the younger part to say anything. Really,
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I mean, you might open the door to the dialogue and then gradually,
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with enough warmth, what's most important might come out. Um, and
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I'm sure you know, I mean, the most important thing is always with
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healing work is always relationality, relationship, relationship, relationship. So the more
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trust there is between any provider and their client, the more resonance will fall
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find a way through, right, even even if what the words are are
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they're reassuring words. So. But but the more we know about resonance,
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the more it can move us into these beautiful dialogues and inquiries that let our
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former selves in there in the crystalline quality of the traumatic memory, you know,
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communicate with us about what was most important that has not yet been known.
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That's a beauty that questions of beauty. Yeah, I love that one.
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Let's let's I mean, I realize we're um kind of. I mean,
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I love the flow of this conversation, but I do want to hit
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on one of kind of an error quote unquote error mistic or whatever. What
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tell us about that? Tell us that story? Sure? Sure? So
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um for me, you know, as since I'm working, working publicly and
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and doing this stuff sort of sort of live um there and and in and
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in fish the fish bowl often just to let people, you know, begin
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to understand. Um, one of the mistakes that I will make is to,
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uh is to assume too much. Okay, can you get specific?
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Sure? Okay? Okay, yeah, yeah. Um. So for example,
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uh, if I were working with you in the fish bowl and we
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were working on some sort of experience that you had that was that was a
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scary or painful experience, and I and I started to think that I knew
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what your experience was. Then I might say something like I bet that you
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were terrified and that all you wanted was to get out of there, and
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and then it was you know that sense ends with a period. What are
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you supposed to do? You know here you are, you're in the fish
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bowl. You care about me and my well being. You don't want to
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shame me, But that wasn't your experience at all. In actuality, you
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were pissed off and you really wanted protection for any child that this sort of
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thing would happen to, which is an entirely different emotional tone. And so
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me not leaving space for you to express what's really true for you again,
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Kurt tails the conversation. It stops it, and you might say, oh,
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yeah, sure, I'm guessing this happened. Yeah, this has happened
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to me, right, And so now I try to add that wonderful,
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that wonderful sentence that will save us all when we're making assumptions about each other.
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Where you where you hear you, the period at the end of your
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sentence, and you say, ah, was it anything like that for you
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guys? Instead of just leaving it on the downbeat with the period at the
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end, then we're making room for the other person to begin to speak.
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Yeah, so to listen for our own you know, dead end dead endings
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of conversations, to make room for the questions, make room for the questions
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about that. This is so interesting to me. I mean you, what
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you're doing here, Sarah, what it seems is very specific. Yeah,
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it's very very specific. It's like you've we're talking about, we're talking about
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language and how that is used almost to heal, but even more than that,
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right, it's it's it's resonance. Yeah. Yeah, I love the
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metaphor of cellos. So if you if you have a cello that's being played
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and a cello that's not being played, and it you can put your ear
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close to the cello that's not being played, and you can hear that it's
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actually vibrating in the same tonal frequencies as the cello that's being played. And
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we as humans vibrate to one another's tonal qualities of emotion. And as soon
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as we as soon as we make an assumption, we stop the resonance because
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it's no longer two persons. Yeah, that right there, that's the gold.
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I love that as soon as we make an assumption, we stop the
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resonance. Yeah, man, this is awesome. I'm just looking at the
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time. We've moving on here. Let me let me um just kind of
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go back up here. And the book again is your resonant self guided meditations
26:36
and exercises to engage your brain's capacity for healing. Yeah, and I'm assuming
26:42
you talk to not just therapists or healers of it, but all people of
26:49
all kinds. Right, Oh, yes, yeh. Is a book that's
26:52
a that's an ideal for therapists who want to sharpen their understanding of what relational
26:59
language is is because it's feelings and needs guesses. But it's also metaphors,
27:03
poetry, visual imagery, it's impossible, dreams, it's swear words, surprisingly
27:11
enough, some kinds of song, and relational language. When we talk about
27:18
relationship, we're awakening the right hemisphere. So all of these different ways of
27:22
using language allow us to sidestep this heavy burden of instrumentality that comes when we
27:30
only use language to accomplish something, rather than using it for a relational connection.
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So it's a beautiful book for anybody who's interested in that, and then
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also for people who want to explore healing work and thinking about words and trauma.
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And then it's a wonderful guided tour and experiential guided tour through all of
27:53
the different brain systems and nervous system elements that are affected by and changed by
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relationship. That's why it's guided meditations and exercises so that you can explore your
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own brain and your own nervous system. You know, what would you say
28:10
or what do you say? Let's let's kind of talk about some suggestions or
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advice here for people who want to begin learning about about trauma working with other
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people, what would you say to them? For people who want to start
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working with trauma and thinking about this work with trauma. Uh, it's it's
28:30
work that will um it's it's a it's a basic foundational understanding about language use
28:37
that will support any modality that you're using to approach trauma. So it'll it
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works beautifully with hacomi, with with somatic experiencing, with with traditional psychotherapy.
28:48
With it's a it's a it's a foundational understanding just about language itself and how
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it shows up in these processes. So it's a it adds something, it
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adds a care and precision about that dimension. Um. Yeah, did I
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answer your question there? Guy? Yeah? I I need a little more
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though, I mean from you, because I know, I guess what you're
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sharing is. So it's it's it's very different than a lot of what I
29:19
hear. It's it's it's not just asking questions, it's not just asking an
29:26
open ended question, but this idea of resonance. How would what would you
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advise How would you advise people to think about working with other people in terms
29:41
of what you're presenting here. Um, I would advise that people think about
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working with other people from with as much of the foundational relational neuroscience in their
30:00
understanding as possible, because the understanding about relational neuroscience allows us to function on
30:10
so many interesting levels when we're working with people. One of the levels is
30:15
is that we start to understand the subtext of the diadic relationship itself. We
30:23
also have words that allow us to begin to give people solid ground for self
30:30
compassion. One of my favorite things for people to say to me as they
30:33
become exposed to this material is they go, oh, I made I makes
30:40
sense. My brain makes sense. You know, for years, people you
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know, people have spent decades just bewildered and confused by their own brain.
30:52
Yeah. Yeah. Compulsion or addiction or self criticism, all of these things,
30:57
depression, anxiety, all of these things make sense in the context of
31:03
what brains do and what they're trying to do, and how they build and
31:07
structure and grow themselves based on the relationships that they have had. So being
31:15
able to talk about the experience at the same time that we're having it and
31:19
doing it and exploring it opens huge vistas for self compassion that we're not there
31:26
previously. How about a go to book recommendation aside from your book, of
31:33
course, will rule the show's page. What would you and whether you know
31:36
it doesn't have to be this particular topic, but what would you? What
31:38
would you say? Well, Bonnie Badnock has a new book coming out called
31:44
The Heart of Trauma. She's the woman who wrote the foreword to my book,
31:48
and her previous book is quite well known being a brain wise therapist.
31:53
But on the twenty eighth of the twelfth of November, I believe her book
31:59
is coming out The Heart of Trauma, a beautiful, beautiful book about relationships
32:06
and the therapeutic relationship and trauma. And she also has a stunning chapter on
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left and right hemisphere language. She goes at it in a slightly different way
32:15
than I go at it, and it's gorgeous. The Heart of Trauma,
32:20
Healing the embodied Brain, and the context of relationships Bonnie Badnuck. Awesome,
32:25
we'll have that linked up. Yeah, Sarah, what's the best way for
32:29
people to get in contact with you? The easiest, most memorable way is
32:32
going to be your resonance self dot com all one word, no spaces,
32:38
and that'll take you to my everything that's connected with the book, the free
32:43
meditation downloads that are connected with the book. You can just have the meditation
32:46
downloads if you don't want to buy the book. And then that also leads
32:51
to my other website which has my retreats and public workshops. Awesome, awesome,
32:55
pleasure talking with you. I mean, I realized this is so short,
33:00
and I know I would have loved to talk to with you more,
33:02
and I'd love to have you back, But thank you so much for taking
33:07
the time to do this. Sarah. Oh guy, a real pleasure to
33:08
be here. Thank you, all right, guys, I want to thank
33:12
you so much for taking the time to listen. I realized that there are
33:15
a plethora of things you could be doing right now, and you're listening to
33:19
this podcast. I want to thank you so much. If you're enjoying it,
33:22
I want to invite you to head on over to iTunes and give me
33:25
an honest review. I'd really appreciate. It gets the word out and it
33:30
also really keeps me going. All right, take care, I have a
33:32
great day.