Latest / INSIGHT FOR LIVING: Biblical Wisdom For Everyday Living / An Interview with One from Beyond Msg 1822 - Pastor Chuck Swindoll Insight for Living

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An Interview with One from Beyond Msg 1822 - Pastor Chuck Swindoll Insight for Living · INSIGHT FOR LIVING: Biblical Wisdom For Everyday Living

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Speaker 1: One of the responsibilities of a minister of the gospel
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Speaker 1: is to deal with those who are dying and to
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Speaker 1: assist those who are grieving as loved ones have passed on.
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Speaker 1: I recall early in my ministry fearing that part of
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Speaker 1: my task because I, of course, had very little experience
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Speaker 1: in helping people through the time when their loved ones
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Speaker 1: have gone home and because I didn't know exactly what
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Speaker 1: would be appropriate to say or to do. And I
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Speaker 1: want to encourage all who are preparing for ministry, and
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Speaker 1: especially you who are involved in it professionally in vocational
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Speaker 1: Christian service, to say that you don't always have to
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Speaker 1: have answers and facts to give to people. Often the
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Speaker 1: most significant ministry is your presence. Just the confidence of
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Speaker 1: your being there and your caring with them and for them. However,
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Speaker 1: there are times when information is extremely helpful. Not a
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Speaker 1: lot of it dumped on people like a truck, but
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Speaker 1: On occasion, just a word or a brief explanation or
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Speaker 1: a quiet conversation in which confidence is provided for the
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Speaker 1: one who is confused. In fact, there is a great
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Speaker 1: deal of interest growing on the whole subject of thanatology
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Speaker 1: from the Greek word thanatos, meaning death, There is the
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Speaker 1: study of death. There are courses offered in most larger universities,
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Speaker 1: and many of them are full. There are books written,
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Speaker 1: it seems to me, by the dozens these days on
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Speaker 1: the subject, and the growing interest is, well, it's obvious.
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Speaker 1: There are several reasons for it. The medical profession has
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Speaker 1: now come to to face the fact that people are
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Speaker 1: focusing interest on and want answers for this whole world
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Speaker 1: that was once shrouded in mystery and left alone. Therefore,
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Speaker 1: the medical profession offers from their world books and journals
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Speaker 1: and research and seminars, all kinds of helpful information especially
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Speaker 1: for those who are struggling with denial. The medical profession
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Speaker 1: constantly has to deal with euthanasia, just one of their
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Speaker 1: many wrestling points. When is it right and who is
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Speaker 1: responsible for pulling the plug? And how far is too far?
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Speaker 1: When is it irresponsible and when is it wise? Another
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Speaker 1: factor in this whole interest is the media. Have you
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Speaker 1: noticed how many magazine articles, how many newspaper articles, how
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Speaker 1: many films, how many plays? It seems as though the
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Speaker 1: talk shows revolve around the subject very often. more often
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Speaker 1: than one would expect. And the public interest is growing also.
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Speaker 1: I have become aware in the last decade of my
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Speaker 1: ministry of a growing time of interest in the OBE,
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Speaker 1: out-of-body experiences, deathbed, afterlife experiences. I've For the longest time,
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Speaker 1: simply ignored it, put it aside. In fact, I have
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Speaker 1: to confess to you, I doubted most of what I
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Speaker 1: was told. And I have been told a number of
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Speaker 1: amazing things as I have been right there when people
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Speaker 1: have died or have been on the scene shortly after
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Speaker 1: it has occurred and had the stories passed on to me.
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Speaker 1: And so, without an interest in simply tickling your curiosity
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Speaker 1: or your fantasy, I want to say a few things
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Speaker 1: about these death and dying events that are occurring and
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Speaker 1: have occurred for centuries. A man named Dr. Marshall Goldberg
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Speaker 1: has interviewed many patients resuscitated from cardiac arrest. He reports,
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Speaker 1: and I quote, that after cessation of the heart, it
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Speaker 1: still takes three or four minutes for the brain to die.
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Speaker 1: And certain patients, if interviewed before a rapidly developing amnesia,
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Speaker 1: effaces the memory. These patients can relate what the experience
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Speaker 1: is like. For some, and I'm still quoting, it is
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Speaker 1: surprisingly peaceful. as if a soundproof pain-deadening curtain has descended
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Speaker 1: over them. He adds, I now have heard similar descriptions
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Speaker 1: from enough patients to accept it almost as the predictable
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Speaker 1: result of terminal oxygen lack. Many people report flashbacks where
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Speaker 1: their whole life passed in review. I thought it was interesting.
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Speaker 1: One has described it as an autobiographical slideshow where you
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Speaker 1: literally can see your life racing in front of your face,
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Speaker 1: in front of your eyes. A couple of books I
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Speaker 1: could recommend to you worth your time, which are reliable works.
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Speaker 1: One is called Life After Life by Raymond Moody, Jr., M.D.,
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Speaker 1: Life After Life. Another one, equally helpful for me, has
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Speaker 1: been a book with a similar title, Life, Death, and Beyond,
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Speaker 1: by J. Kirby Anderson. I'd like to quote from both
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Speaker 1: of these sources before we look closely into the scriptures
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Speaker 1: for a little while. Dr. Moody writes, Despite the wide
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Speaker 1: variation in the circumstances surrounding close calls with death, and
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Speaker 1: in the types of persons undergoing them, it remains true
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Speaker 1: that there is a striking similarity among the accounts of
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Speaker 1: the experiences themselves. In fact, the similarities among various reports
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Speaker 1: are so great that one can easily pick out about
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Speaker 1: 15 separate elements which recur again and again in the
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Speaker 1: mass of narratives that I have collected. On the basis
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Speaker 1: of these points of likeness, let me now reconstruct a brief, theoretical,
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Speaker 1: complete experience which embodies all of the common elements. And
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Speaker 1: now he gives you the scene. A man is dying.
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Speaker 1: As he reaches the point of greatest physical distress, he
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Speaker 1: hears himself pronounced dead by his doctors. He begins to
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Speaker 1: hear an uncomfortable noise, a loud ringing or buzzing, and
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Speaker 1: at the same time feels himself moving very rapidly through
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Speaker 1: a long, dark tunnel. After this, he suddenly finds himself
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Speaker 1: outside his own physical body, but still in the immediate
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Speaker 1: physical environment, and he sees his own body from a distance.
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Speaker 1: as though he is a spectator. He watches the resuscitation
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Speaker 1: attempt from this unusual vantage point and is in a
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Speaker 1: state of emotional upheaval. After a while, he collects himself
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Speaker 1: and becomes more accustomed to his odd condition. He notices
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Speaker 1: he still has a body, quote-unquote, but one of a
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Speaker 1: very different nature and with very different powers than from
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Speaker 1: the physical body he has left behind. Soon other things
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Speaker 1: begin to happen. Others come to meet and to help him.
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Speaker 1: He glimpses the spirits of relatives and friends who have
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Speaker 1: already died, and a loving, warm spirit of a kind
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Speaker 1: he has never encountered before, a being of light, appears
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Speaker 1: before him. This being asks him a question non-verbally to
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Speaker 1: make him evaluate his life and helps him along by
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Speaker 1: showing him a panoramic instantaneous playback of the major events
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Speaker 1: of his life. At some point he finds himself approaching
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Speaker 1: some sort of barrier or borderline. apparently representing the limit
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Speaker 1: between earthly life and the next life. Yet he finds
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Speaker 1: that he must go back to the earth, that the
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Speaker 1: time for his death has not yet come. At this point,
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Speaker 1: he resists. For by now he has taken up with
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Speaker 1: his experiences in the afterlife and does not want to return.
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Speaker 1: He is overwhelmed by intense feelings of joy, love, and peace.
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Speaker 1: Despite his attitude, though, he somehow reunites with his physical
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Speaker 1: body and lives. Now get this. Later he tries to
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Speaker 1: tell others, but he has trouble doing so. In the
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Speaker 1: first place, he can find no human words adequate to
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Speaker 1: describe these unearthly episodes. He also finds that others scoff,
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Speaker 1: so he stops telling other people. Still, the experience affects
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Speaker 1: his life profoundly, especially his views about death and its
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Speaker 1: relationship to life. End of quote. And if I may
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Speaker 1: quote for a moment from Anderson, this is worth listening
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Speaker 1: to also. Those who have been involved in research on
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Speaker 1: out-of-body experiences, OBE, have noted a very interesting phenomenon. Even
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Speaker 1: when a person is having an OBE, he is still
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Speaker 1: in contact with his body. He is attached to his
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Speaker 1: body by means of a, quote, cord, C-O-R-D, cord. On
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Speaker 1: one of his out-of-body experiences, Robert Monroe describes looking for
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Speaker 1: the cord that connected his physical body with his second body.
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Speaker 1: Quote from this Robert Monroe, I turned to look for
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Speaker 1: the cord, but it was not visible to me. Either
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Speaker 1: it was too dark or not there. Then I reached
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Speaker 1: around my head to see if I could feel it
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Speaker 1: coming out the front, top, or back of my head.
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Speaker 1: As I reached the back of my head, my hands
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Speaker 1: brushed against something, and I felt behind me with both hands.
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Speaker 1: Whatever it was extended out from a spot in my back,
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Speaker 1: directly between my shoulder blades. I reached outward, and it
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Speaker 1: formed into a cord. If you can call a two-inch
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Speaker 1: thick cable a cord. Anderson continues, such a phenomenon is
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Speaker 1: not limited to out-of-body experiences. It has also been reported
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Speaker 1: by those at a deathbed. And one more, quote, the
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Speaker 1: claims of those who say that they have had out-of-body
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Speaker 1: experiences are further corroborated to some extent by some deathbed phenomena.
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Speaker 1: There are on record instances where the bystanders say that
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Speaker 1: shortly before death, They've seen a second body rising in
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Speaker 1: a misty form from the recumbent body of the patient.
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Speaker 1: They say, moreover, that the two bodies are joined together
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Speaker 1: by a silver cord. I have heard similar reports. I
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Speaker 1: find it terribly interesting, this matter of the cord, when
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Speaker 1: I come to Ecclesiastes 12, and I find that one
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Speaker 1: of the marks of death is the silver cord is shattered.
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Speaker 1: That's just my comment there. I confess to you I'm
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Speaker 1: fascinated by the subject. I realize at that time it
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Speaker 1: is the most emotional moment of one's existence, certainly if
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Speaker 1: not the most, one of the most. I realize at
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Speaker 1: such emotional times we are often relatively unreliable in the
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Speaker 1: gathering of information, but nevertheless I too believe have heard
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Speaker 1: one report after another, after another, after another, after another,
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Speaker 1: and it's to the point where one wonders if there
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Speaker 1: might be something to it. It doesn't concern me to
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Speaker 1: the point of saying that all of these things actually occur,
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Speaker 1: it's just the similarity of them is intriguing. I am
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Speaker 1: grateful that we aren't limited to just the feelings of
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Speaker 1: people as they die, but that the scriptures talk about
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Speaker 1: it and help us see it. No one has ever
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Speaker 1: spoken with, except in the case of the Lord Jesus,
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Speaker 1: a person who has been resurrected. We have only spoken
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Speaker 1: with people who have been resuscitated, such as Lazarus. People
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Speaker 1: who left this earth, quote unquote, and then returned in
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Speaker 1: the same body to tell their story. We have never
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Speaker 1: conversed with someone who has been literally raised from death
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Speaker 1: in a glorified state. So we have only the scriptures
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Speaker 1: to turn to in such cases. Nor has anyone talked
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Speaker 1: with someone in a reliable manner so that information from
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Speaker 1: the place of death has come back to our attention.
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Speaker 1: People use mediums and spiritism and all sorts of, of
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Speaker 1: demonic means to contact the dead. And I stand firmly
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Speaker 1: against such practices, however they do it. But I have
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Speaker 1: the scriptures to turn to when I want to find
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Speaker 1: information about what life is like beyond this one. And
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Speaker 1: so do you. First of all, I would like you
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Speaker 1: to find a blank page in your Bible to write
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Speaker 1: down some verses of scripture to turn to when facing death.
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Speaker 1: I know you can buy a Gideon Bible or get one.
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Speaker 1: You can't even buy one. They'll give them to you.
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Speaker 1: That list where to turn in time of death. I
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Speaker 1: want to give you my own list that I often
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Speaker 1: turn to. I'm going to give you the verses and
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Speaker 1: you'll need them someday. You don't need them right now,
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Speaker 1: quite likely, but you will someday. And I want you
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Speaker 1: at that time to read them. 2 Corinthians 5, 6
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Speaker 1: through 8. These are These are promises for Christians when
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Speaker 1: facing death. To be absent from the body is to
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Speaker 1: be at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5, 6-8.
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Speaker 1: Psalm 116, 15. Precious in the sight of the Lord
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Speaker 1: is the death of his saints. Psalm 116, 15. 1
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Speaker 1: Corinthians 15, 50-58. Great verses to use regarding moving from
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Speaker 1: this life to the next one. And the climax of
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Speaker 1: it is, oh, death, where is your sting? Oh, grave,
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Speaker 1: where is your victory? Verse 55. That's 1 Corinthians 15,
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Speaker 1: 50 through 58. 1 Thessalonians 4, 13 to 18. Let's
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Speaker 1: talk about our Lord Jesus coming for us. And We
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Speaker 1: will forever be with him. 1 Thessalonians 4, 13 to 18.
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Speaker 1: And one more. We tend to overlook these in Revelation,
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Speaker 1: and I think it's unwise that we overlook them. Revelation 21, 4.
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Speaker 1: He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes. There
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Speaker 1: shall no longer be any death, no longer any mourning
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Speaker 1: or crying or pain. The first things have passed away.
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Speaker 1: And Revelation 22, verse 5. There shall no longer be
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Speaker 1: any night. They shall have no need of the light
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Speaker 1: of a lamp or the light of the sun because
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Speaker 1: the Lord God shall illumine them. They'll be there forever
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Speaker 1: and ever. Revelation 22, 5 and 21, 4. Now remember this.
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Speaker 1: Every time you attend the funeral service of a saint,
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Speaker 1: You are not viewing the remains of the person. You
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Speaker 1: are seeing only the body, which is decaying, decomposing. I
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Speaker 1: don't care what we call it, slumbering or at rest
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Speaker 1: or at peace or how natural he may look. You
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Speaker 1: are looking at that which is going to be changed
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Speaker 1: and glorified and renewed in a new kind of structure
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Speaker 1: so that it can endure eternity. That which made that
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Speaker 1: person who he or she was has been taken to
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Speaker 1: be in the presence of the Lord. You're not seeing
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Speaker 1: the person, you're seeing only the shell, or as 2
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Speaker 1: Corinthians 5 calls it, you're seeing the house, which is
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Speaker 1: now destroyed. But that individual soul, that spirit, has been
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Speaker 1: taken to be with the Lord, and that is a
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Speaker 1: time to give God thanks. The body will be raised
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Speaker 1: in the future. One of my favorite lines that I
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Speaker 1: like to say state at a gravesite service is to
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Speaker 1: tell people that they are standing on resurrection ground. There
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Speaker 1: will be a time when the graves will open and the.
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Speaker 1: bodies will be removed in a glorified state to be
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Speaker 1: forever with the Lord Jesus, where we bodily and consciously
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Speaker 1: will spend time in his presence. So for the saint,
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Speaker 1: there is hope. There is wonderful hope. Now in Luke
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Speaker 1: chapter 16, where I want us to spend a major
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Speaker 1: part of our time, there is a very vivid account,
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Speaker 1: not of an OBE, but a literal scene Jesus tells
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Speaker 1: of regarding a man who died and went into Hades.
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Speaker 1: And what we have is not some physician's word, not
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Speaker 1: some well-meaning researcher's appraisal, but what we have is an
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Speaker 1: account spoken by Christ himself. And he tells the truth.
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Speaker 1: Luke 16 sets the stage in verses 19 to 21.
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Speaker 1: Familiar words to some of you. For you who are
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Speaker 1: familiar with it, remember many are hearing it for the
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Speaker 1: very first time. I'll never forget the first time I
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Speaker 1: read this passage. It had a tremendous impact on my life,
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Speaker 1: and I trust it will in yours. Now there was
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Speaker 1: a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple
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Speaker 1: and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And
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Speaker 1: a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his
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Speaker 1: gate full of sores, longing to be fed with the
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Speaker 1: crumbs which were falling from the rich man's tables. Even
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Speaker 1: the dogs were coming and licking his sores. It's a
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Speaker 1: pathetic scene. Here is a rich man who, as we
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Speaker 1: will see, is eternally lost. And here is a poor
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Speaker 1: man who is eternally saved. And there is a remarkable
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Speaker 1: reversal of events at death. It is the greatest of
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Speaker 1: all levelers. And at this moment, please observe what occurs.
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Speaker 1: Verse 22, now it came about that the poor man died.
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Speaker 1: And he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom.
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Speaker 1: Here is a believer who dies. The body is probably
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Speaker 1: thrown in the local dump. The refuse pile. Not even
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Speaker 1: a decent burial. But the soul of this man is empty.
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Speaker 1: exiting his body, and is taken into this presence of
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Speaker 1: the Lord, called here Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died,
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Speaker 1: and he was buried. I'm sure there was a burial
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Speaker 1: of great pomp and a lot of ceremony, but the
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Speaker 1: real man is seen in the verses that follow. And
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Speaker 1: in Hades... we find the spirit or the soul of
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Speaker 1: this unsaved man. Now, by the way, this is not
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Speaker 1: a parable. Parables don't have proper names. Verse 20 includes
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Speaker 1: a proper name. This is an actual account. Jesus knew
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Speaker 1: of it and told his followers of it because he
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Speaker 1: had the ability to know all things. He knew the scene. This, this,
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Speaker 1: this interchange between the lost soul and the Lord God
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Speaker 1: is unique in Scripture. You won't read of this somewhere else.
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Speaker 1: This is a remarkable passage. And Jesus says this man
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Speaker 1: in Hades lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and
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Speaker 1: saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. Now,
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Speaker 1: in the verses that follow, we haven't some paranormal experience
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Speaker 1: reported by a man who was resuscitated. This is no vision.
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Speaker 1: This is an event. This is an interview, as it were.
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Speaker 1: Notice several things that occur. First, there is agony. There
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Speaker 1: is literal pain.
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Speaker 2: He is in torments.
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Speaker 1: And he sees far away those who are at peace.
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Speaker 1: Notice also he's fully conscious. He has his senses. And
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Speaker 1: especially notice he has his memory. He has his memory.
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Speaker 1: It isn't obliterated when death comes. He cried out and
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Speaker 1: he said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me. Send Lazarus
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Speaker 1: that he may dip the tip of his finger in
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Speaker 1: water and cool off my tongue. I am in agony
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Speaker 1: in this flame. Earlier it mentions torments. Now it mentions agony.
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Speaker 1: Observe that the man could reason. He could see. He
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Speaker 1: had feeling. I mentioned he has memory. He can hear.
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Speaker 1: He can taste. It's as if he still has a tongue.
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Speaker 1: But Abraham said, child, remember that during your life, you
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Speaker 1: received your good things and likewise Lazarus bad things. Now
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Speaker 1: he is being comforted and you are in agony. Now
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Speaker 1: for those who joke about eternity and say, well, we'll
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Speaker 1: be there for a while and somebody will pray us
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Speaker 1: out of there. Take a good look at verse 26.
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Speaker 1: Besides all this, between us and you, there is a
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Speaker 1: great chasm fixed. Fixed. In order that those who wish
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Speaker 1: to come over from here to you may not be able.
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Speaker 1: And that none may cross over from there where you
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Speaker 1: are to us. There is a chasm fixed. It's impossible
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Speaker 1: to change destinies. It's impossible to escape the location after death.
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Speaker 1: Even if they were to wish for such, they cannot
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Speaker 1: come to your rescue, nor can you find their kind
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Speaker 1: of comfort. It's fixed. It's fixed. And he said, then
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Speaker 1: I beg you, Father, that you send him to my
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Speaker 1: father's house. Now, this is where it gets very, very moving.
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Speaker 1: Here is a man who has such memory, he recalls
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Speaker 1: the scene at home. He says in verse 28, I
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Speaker 1: have five brothers. I have five brothers. And I beg you, Father,
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Speaker 1: that you would send him, Lazarus, back from the grave
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Speaker 1: to my five brothers. Why? Verse 28, that he may
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Speaker 1: warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.
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Speaker 1: Let me ask you something. Is it your feeling that
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Speaker 1: the lost who are dead care about the lost who
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Speaker 1: are alive? You better believe it. In fact, the great concern,
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Speaker 1: since he cannot escape. Is that someone might go to
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Speaker 1: his brothers and communicate to those who are still living.
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Speaker 1: What they're facing. Without Christ. That he may warn them.
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Speaker 1: Talk about a missionary message. Talk about evangelistic zeal. It's
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Speaker 1: in hell. If nowhere else. It's there. There's urgency there. Oh,
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Speaker 1: that someone could go to my brothers and someone from
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Speaker 1: the dead with the marks of hell on them, let
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Speaker 1: them go and appear to my five brothers who are
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Speaker 1: living like I lived, denying what I denied. This certainly
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Speaker 1: cuts at the superficial comments we often hear from people
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Speaker 1: who say, I'll just be in hell with all my buddies.
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Speaker 1: It's a stupid statement, and you just need to read
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Speaker 1: a few verses in this passage to realize there's no
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Speaker 1: companionship there. There's an awful sense of loneliness. Now note
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Speaker 1: the answer. In response to him, he says, verse 29,
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Speaker 1: they have Moses and the prophets, meaning what? They have
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Speaker 1: the word of God. They have the book. They have
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Speaker 1: the scriptures. They have Moses and the prophets. Let them
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Speaker 1: who are alive hear the truth of scripture. Let them
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Speaker 1: hear the verses. Let them hear the preachers. Let them
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Speaker 1: hear the broadcasts. Let them hear the message. Look at him.
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Speaker 1: Verse 30.
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Speaker 2: No.
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Speaker 1: No. Father Abraham. But if someone goes to them from
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Speaker 1: the dead, they will repent. See, he's bargaining with him. Lord,
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Speaker 1: he says... I know they've got it. They've got Bibles
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Speaker 1: stacked in their bookshelves. They've got Bibles available on the
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Speaker 1: dining room table. They have Bibles in the study. There's
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Speaker 1: Bibles all over that place. No. But if someone were
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Speaker 1: to go to them from the dead, they'd repent. They'd believe.
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Speaker 1: That's all it would take. I find the next response
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Speaker 1: absolutely amazing. Verse 31 says, He said to the man
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Speaker 1: in hell, if they do not listen to Moses and
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Speaker 1: the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises
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Speaker 1: from the dead. You talk about the power of the scriptures.
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Speaker 1: If you could bring to a lost person the presence
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Speaker 1: of someone who has been in hell, to tell them
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Speaker 1: of the message... Or if you could bring to the
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Speaker 1: lost person the truth of the scriptures, the scriptures would
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Speaker 1: be more convincing of the two. We have available to
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Speaker 1: us in our Bibles sufficient truth to do the job.
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Speaker 1: It is all that is needed to convince the person
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Speaker 1: without Christ that they are missing what life is all about.
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Speaker 1: Even if you could do something miraculous, which we cannot,
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Speaker 1: like bring someone back from beyond, you could not have
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Speaker 1: as great an impact as you do in preparing the
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Speaker 1: life by presenting the scriptures. They have Moses and the prophets.
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Speaker 1: If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets,
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Speaker 1: they wouldn't be persuaded if someone rose from the dead.
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Speaker 1: You know how I would put this entire message in
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Speaker 1: one sentence? It would be this sentence. Those who ignore
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Speaker 1: the word of God in life will not be ignored
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Speaker 1: by the God of the word in death. Those who
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Speaker 1: ignore the word of God in life will not be
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Speaker 1: ignored by the God of the word in eternity. Now,
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Speaker 1: messages like this never fail to raise questions. You have
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Speaker 1: quietly and patiently sat there and probably had questions flash
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Speaker 1: into your mind. I know if I were sitting where
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Speaker 1: you're sitting, so would I. If this were coming to
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Speaker 1: me for sort of like a bolt out of the blue.
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Speaker 1: So let me answer four or five of the what
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Speaker 1: I would call a major questions that haunt people. One
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Speaker 1: of them says this, How can a loving God send
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Speaker 1: people to hell? Now, that question bothers me. I don't
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Speaker 1: like the way it's worded because I don't like its implications.
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Speaker 1: So if you'll allow me to analyze the question before
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Speaker 1: I answer it, it will help. The question seems to
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Speaker 1: imply that God is indulgent, goody-goody, weak and that mankind
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Speaker 1: is being taken advantage of, handled cruelly and without feelings.
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Speaker 1: And God is sort of taking delight saying, get out
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Speaker 1: of my sight and pushing people against their wills. So
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Speaker 1: if that is what is meant by the question, then
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Speaker 1: that needs to be addressed first. But if it's an
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Speaker 1: honest question, my answer would be that God has established
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Speaker 1: the ground rules. That's his sovereign right. As the creator
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Speaker 1: of life, his ground rule states that those who believe
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Speaker 1: in his son will have eternal life. Those who do
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Speaker 1: not believe in his son will not have eternal life
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Speaker 1: with him. The believers will have the blessedness of heaven.
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Speaker 1: Those who reject the message must face the punishment of
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Speaker 1: that rejection. Unless you think God is unmoved over that scene,
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Speaker 1: you'll need to put in your mind 2 Peter 3
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Speaker 1: and verse 9. which states the Lord is not slow
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Speaker 1: about his promise as some count slowness, but is patient
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Speaker 1: toward you, not wishing for any to perish, but for
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Speaker 1: all A-L-L to come to repentance. Remember that verse. When
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Speaker 1: someone presents to you the idea that God cruelly and
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Speaker 1: gleefully dances about heaven as people are dumped out of
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Speaker 1: their will into hell. Present to them 2 Peter 3.9.
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Speaker 1: What about those who have never heard is a major question.
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Speaker 1: What about those who sincerely follow their own beliefs and
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Speaker 1: their own religion? I want to say that we must
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Speaker 1: be careful about stepping into the role of God. Only
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Speaker 1: he knows the destiny of people. People that you and
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Speaker 1: I might think are not in the family may be.
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Speaker 1: People you and I may think are in the family
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Speaker 1: may not be. That thought haunts me a lot since
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Speaker 1: I see a lot of church people and I have
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Speaker 1: reason to wonder about their eternal destiny. Since by their
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Speaker 1: fruits you shall know them. God alone knows the heart.
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Speaker 1: He alone is the one who makes the final determination.
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Speaker 1: Not all who call him Lord, Lord will enter into
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Speaker 1: the kingdom. Not all who think they are lost are lost.
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Speaker 1: Don't misquote me. Just remember the way I said that.
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Speaker 1: Some have come to know Christ and have thought that
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Speaker 1: they've lost it. If you've truly come to know Christ,
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Speaker 1: you cannot lose such a thing. Now look at this
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Speaker 1: statement in Romans chapter 10. If I may have you
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Speaker 1: turn back there, please. Let's understand that sincerity is not
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Speaker 1: the basis of salvation. Faith in Christ is. Romans 10
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Speaker 1: verse 14. How then shall they call upon him in
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Speaker 1: whom they have not believed? That's the first domino. There
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Speaker 1: are several that bump up against the other, and these
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Speaker 1: are bumping up against one another. How shall they believe
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Speaker 1: in him whom they have not heard? How shall they
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Speaker 1: hear without a preacher? How shall they preach unless they
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Speaker 1: are sent? How beautiful are the feet of those who
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Speaker 1: bring glad tidings of good things. However, they did not
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Speaker 1: all heed the glad tidings. For Isaiah says, Lord, who
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Speaker 1: has believed our report? So faith comes from hearing and
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Speaker 1: hearing by the word of Christ, literally hearing of a
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Speaker 1: word concerning Christ. In order to have eternal life with God,
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Speaker 1: one must come to know Jesus Christ. God has wonderful
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Speaker 1: ways of getting our attention. He uses the natural phenomena.
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Speaker 1: He uses general revelation. He uses circumstance. He uses people.
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Speaker 1: He uses written material. He uses living human beings who
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Speaker 1: make the message known. He uses any number of things.
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Speaker 1: And the marvel of his plan is that he has
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Speaker 1: a wonderful way of reaching far beyond what we think
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Speaker 1: he is reaching. While I'm on this subject, let me
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Speaker 1: add that to the surprise of some of you, I
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Speaker 1: believe there will be degrees of punishment. I see those looks.
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Speaker 1: Luke chapter 12, verses 47 and 48, and I could
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Speaker 1: use other passages, but this seems to be the best one.
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Speaker 1: I rather suspect that There will be a different kind
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Speaker 1: of punishment for those who are without Christ and die
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Speaker 1: apart from the knowledge of him as we know knowledge
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Speaker 1: and those who have heard over and over again and
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Speaker 1: reject it. Luke 12, 47, 48. That slave who knew
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Speaker 1: his master's will and did not get ready or act
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Speaker 1: in accord with his will shall receive many lashes, but
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Speaker 1: the one who did not know it and committed deeds
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Speaker 1: worthy of a flogging will receive but few. And from
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Speaker 1: everyone who has been given much, much shall be required,
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Speaker 1: and to whom they entrusted much of him they will
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Speaker 1: ask also. all the more. I want you to think
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Speaker 1: on it before you say I'm a heretic. Think about
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Speaker 1: the whole idea of degrees of punishment. Understand that no
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Speaker 1: one without Christ goes to heaven. But how God handles
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Speaker 1: those who are without Christ and what measure of punishment
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Speaker 1: is completely up to him. I just know that heaven
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Speaker 1: is not their home. What about deathbed repentance? That's another question.
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Speaker 1: I hear about people who tell me stories of folks,
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Speaker 1: and I've been there, when they believed in Christ, having
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Speaker 1: not believed all their lives, and now dying, they express
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Speaker 1: faith in the Lord. Once again, remember, no one can
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Speaker 1: determine the eternal destiny of an individual but God himself.
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Speaker 1: He knows the heart. But I am on occasion drawn
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Speaker 1: back to Luke 23, 39 to 43. And you who
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Speaker 1: know your Bibles know that this is the scene at
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Speaker 1: the cross where the thief is hanging beside our Lord.
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Speaker 1: And he has been a thief. He has lived the
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Speaker 1: life of the unsaved. And he makes a statement and
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Speaker 1: Christ acknowledges it. Luke 23, 39. one of the criminals
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Speaker 1: who were hanged there was hurling abuse at him, saying,
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Speaker 1: are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us. The
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Speaker 1: other answered, rebuking him, saying, do you not even fear God?
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Speaker 1: Since you are under the same sentence of condemnation, and
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Speaker 1: we indeed justly, look at his statement of faith, we
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Speaker 1: justly are receiving what we deserve for our deeds, but
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Speaker 1: this man has done nothing wrong. And he was saying, Jesus,
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Speaker 1: remember me when you come in your kingdom. And Jesus
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Speaker 1: said to him, truly, I say to you today, you
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Speaker 1: shall be with me in paradise. Is that a wonderful hope?
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Speaker 1: Wonderful promise. Now, be careful about making people say the
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Speaker 1: very words you want to hear so you can say
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Speaker 1: in return. Now you're you're a Christian. Be careful about
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Speaker 1: giving them the prayer that they must pray or giving
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Speaker 1: them the words that they must say. And then when
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Speaker 1: they say that, they're saved. At least you tell them that.
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Speaker 1: I don't know that I've ever heard anyone say, Lord Jesus,
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Speaker 1: remember me when you come in your kingdom. But in
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Speaker 1: this case, that was sufficient because the Lord read the heart.
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Speaker 1: Once again, we evangelicals, if we're not careful, we'll get
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Speaker 1: too specific and we'll require of someone exactly what we
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Speaker 1: expect them to say before we're comfortable that they're born again.
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Speaker 1: On the other hand, some may say that and not
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Speaker 1: be born again. Works both ways. A couple of more
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Speaker 1: and then we're through. What about the death of little babies?
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Speaker 1: All right. I often help people with this one and
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Speaker 1: they struggle because they've lost a little child that never
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Speaker 1: reached an age of understanding. It's my understanding that a
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Speaker 1: child that has not reached an age of response, a
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Speaker 1: time when they can reason with, even in a childlike way,
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Speaker 1: the Lord Jesus and the claim upon their life that
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Speaker 1: he makes that they upon death will be with the Lord.
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Speaker 1: And the basis of that, the best passage I know
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Speaker 1: to refer to that is 2 Samuel 12, 23, where
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Speaker 1: David says of the child that has died, I will
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Speaker 1: go to him, but he will not return to me. Somehow,
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Speaker 1: in God's wonderful plan, there is in heaven a place
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Speaker 1: reserved for the infant, for the young life who is.
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Speaker 1: On this earth taken. And I, I, uh, I'm comforted
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Speaker 1: that David says he can't come back to me, which
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Speaker 1: is interesting. Speaks a word regarding reincarnation, doesn't it? He
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Speaker 1: cannot come back to me, but I, I can go
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Speaker 1: to him. Speaking of reincarnation, that's the final one. Is
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Speaker 1: it valid? Um, I, I, uh, obviously do not believe
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Speaker 1: in it. Uh, People say John 3 is a good
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Speaker 1: basis of it. You must be born again. I've heard
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Speaker 1: that used. Hebrews 12, we are surrounded by a great
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Speaker 1: cloud of witnesses. And they say, you see, people have
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Speaker 1: come back and they surround us. If there were reincarnation,
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Speaker 1: I think Scripture would refer to several deaths that the
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Speaker 1: same soul would pass through. But Scripture always refers to
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Speaker 1: death of an individual in the singular. Furthermore, Hebrews 9,
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Speaker 1: 27 says it's appointed unto man once to die. And
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Speaker 1: after that, the judgment. Job 7, 8 through 10. The
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Speaker 1: eye that now sees me will see me no longer.
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Speaker 1: You will look for me, but I will be no more.
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Speaker 1: As a cloud vanishes and is gone, so he who
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Speaker 1: goes down to the grave does not return. reading Job 7,
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Speaker 1: 8 through 10, he will never come to his house again.
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Speaker 1: His place will know him no more. And don't forget
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Speaker 1: that great chasm fixed, which we just read about. He
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Speaker 1: says to the man in torment, there is a great
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Speaker 1: chasm fixed. Those cases where reincarnation seems to be promoted
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Speaker 1: and published, I believe, are cases of demonism. Now I
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Speaker 1: have one final question for you, which only you can answer.
45:47
Speaker 1: Where are you going to spend eternity? Only you can
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Speaker 1: answer that. I want to warn you as I close
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Speaker 1: this message against just being fascinated by subjects like afterlife
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Speaker 1: experiences and the OBE world and all that goes with
46:09
Speaker 1: the fascination and intriguing stories that come from deathbeds. All
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Speaker 1: the while engaged in all that kind of study, you
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Speaker 1: can miss your moment of faith. I'd like us to
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Speaker 1: bow for a little bit of time together. The evening
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Speaker 1: is young. You have time to think. to ponder. And
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Speaker 1: because only you can answer the condition of your inner being,
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Speaker 1: then you answer. Where am I going to spend eternity?
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Speaker 1: If I were to die tonight, in a matter of seconds,
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Speaker 1: where would my soul And I plead with you yet again,
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Speaker 1: if you are not absolutely certain that you would be
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Speaker 1: in the presence of the Lord, make certain now. Trust
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Speaker 1: in Jesus Christ now. Take him now. I want to
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Speaker 1: lead us in prayer. And I want you to join me,
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Speaker 1: even if you have just now come to Christ, you especially.
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Speaker 1: Let's bow together. Lord, thank you for speaking to us
47:50
Speaker 1: today about these profound subjects that are beyond us, beyond
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Speaker 1: our own human ability to comprehend. Thank you for knowing
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Speaker 1: the ending from the beginning, for you life beyond this
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Speaker 1: earth is as clear and understood as life for us
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Speaker 1: on this earth today. And so we place ourselves at
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Speaker 1: your disposal. We entrust to you the future. I ask
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Speaker 1: that you would bring comfort to those who grieve, that
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Speaker 1: you would bring clarity and understanding to those who have
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Speaker 1: been confused. You would bring reassurance regarding eternity to those
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Speaker 1: who have been in doubt and uncertainty. Thank you for Christ,
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Speaker 1: who has loved us and died for us, who has
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Speaker 1: gone on before us, even through the grave and beyond it,
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Speaker 1: victoriously overcoming the grip of death. Thank you that through
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Speaker 1: him we can also know such power and victory. So
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Speaker 1: we entrust our lives to you, including our future. Wherever
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Speaker 1: that may take us, we leave with you. And we
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Speaker 1: thank you for getting us beyond this life, through death,
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Speaker 1: and on into eternity with you. With heaven as our home.
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Speaker 1: In Jesus' name, we claim that and we pray. Amen.
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Speaker 2: The preceding message, An Interview with One from Beyond, was
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Speaker 2: copyrighted in 1985, 1987, 2005, 2011, and 2014. And the
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Speaker 2: sound recording was copyrighted in 2014 by Charles R.
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Speaker 1: Swindoll, Inc.
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Speaker 2: All rights are reserved worldwide. Duplication of copyrighted material for
49:44
Speaker 2: commercial use is strictly prohibited.