Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: Denise Brown Watched O.J. Grab Nicole by the Throat, Then Nicole Went Back to Him

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Killer Thriller: Denise Brown Watched O.J. Grab Nicole by the Throat, Then Nicole Went Back to Him · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Alisa Donovan. Welcome back to Killer Thriller.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: We are continuing our conversation with Denise Brown, sister of
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Nicole Brown Simpson and author of the new book on
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: sale now, For My Sister Nicole, Love Shouldn't Hurt, What
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: to Know About Domestic Violence. You discover that Nicole called
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: a shelter just five days before she was murdered and
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: How did you find that out? And can you talk
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: about how turning to a shelter, essentially strangers, might seem
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: more palatable than calling a supportive family?
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: I found out in court. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: found out in court that she had called a shelter
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: because they called them up on the stand and they
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: wouldn't talk. And I was really, really, really angry because
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: I thought, How could you not tell them what my sister,
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: what happened to my sister or what she said to you?
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: And then I, once I started learning about it, I understood,
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: but this took years to understand that they are there
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: to protect the other victims that are our clients that
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: they call them there that are in the shelter. Because
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: if they start talking about Nicole per se, they have
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: to open up and let their books be shown about everybody.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: And I never understood that. That's why I got so angry.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: And I just thought, oh, my God, they're awful. I
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: would never call them.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: But I understand it now. Yeah. But as a sister
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: to someone that was murdered. Of course. I didn't understand
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: it at all.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: One of the most disturbing scenes in your book is
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: your account of seeing OJ put his hands around.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Nicole's throat and lift her. her off the ground. It's
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: a lot to metabolize. What do you remember about that moment?
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, every detail, every single detail. That is
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: something that is so ingrained in my brain that I
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: cannot forget it. I mean, it was, it was, God,
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: we had such a fun night. a fun night that we,
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: you know, you go and you eat Mexican food and
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: you're drinking to keep while you're drinking the margaritas and
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: you're having a great time and everything's fun. Uh, we
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: go back to Rockingham. He's making more margaritas and we're
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: all sitting around the bar, having a great time. And
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: then all of a sudden he says, Nicole, go get
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: some food. I go, Oh my God. I said, we
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: just ate. I said, what do you, what do we
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: need more food for? Nicole, go get some more food.
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: I'm so glad you see, I don't know why I
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: can't keep my mouth shut. But anyhow, I said, why
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: do you take her? You take my sister so for granted.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: She does everything for you. Okay. Denise had to open
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: her mouth. Well, this is when he came around the bar.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: And I thought, what in the world is he doing?
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: And I saw dark black eyes. I saw veins popping
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: out of his head. I just thought, oh, my God.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: He ran up the stairs. started throwing pictures down into
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: the foyer, not pictures of his family, pictures of our family.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: And he runs into the bedroom, takes her clothes, throws
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: them into the foyer, shoes, jackets, hangers, everything. All of
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: a sudden he comes running back down. He sees Nicole,
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: he grabs her by the throat and he has her
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: six inches off the ground. And I am sitting there
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: watching this and he is just black eyes. And I
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: am going over there and I'm pounding on him as
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: hard as I can and crying and screaming. And finally,
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: he released her. And he took her by the arms
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: and he threw her outside and she was all bloody,
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: her elbows. And she landed on her butt. And then
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: he came, grabbed me, threw me out of the door.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: But I didn't fall down. And I just said, we're
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: out of here. I grabbed Nicole and I took her.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: I took her out. And we spent the night at
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: a hotel because a friend of ours that was with us,
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: he ended up, he was at the Beverly Hills Hotel.
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: So we ended up taking Nicole there. And the next
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: day she said, Denise, I have to go back and
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: get some clothes. I said, okay. I said, I'm going
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: with you. And she said, no, she goes, don't even
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: worry about it. She goes, he's not going to be
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: there anyway. And I said, no, no, no, I'm going
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: to go. And she said, she goes, Denise, I'll be
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: gone like maximum two hours. You know, I'll go there,
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: pick up some stuff, and I'll be back. I said, okay.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: And she goes, one hour, two hours, three hours. I
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: finally get on the phone. Remember, we didn't have cell
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: phones at the time. And I call the home phone.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: She picks up the phone. And she goes, oh, Denise.
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: I said, Nicole. I said, what's up? And she goes, oh,
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: everything's okay. Okay. I said, what do you mean everything's okay?
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: And she says, oh, we talked and everything's okay. Things
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: just got out of hand. We drank too much, whatever. Well,
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: after that, I got to thinking, looking back in hindsight,
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: not after the event, I looked back and I thought, oh,
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: my God, I caused this. This was my fault. This
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: was my fault for opening up my mouth and saying
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: he took her for granted. And then I realized after
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: I started learning about domestic violence, it's not my fault.
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: It's not Nicole's fault. He is the asshole. Yes. He
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: is the one that is, he's the batterer. He's the narcissist.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: He's the evil one. He is the monster.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: It's so insidious.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: And it's so important for people to understand this. You
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: are both intelligent, well-rounded, strong women that have a great family.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: And you could still start to think that, oh, I
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: caused this.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: It's so important for people to understand that.
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: It's nobody's fault except the monster that's inflicting this pain.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: That's right. That's the only person whose fault it is.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: After the National Enquirer posted the photos of Nicole with
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: the bruises and OJ still had no real repercussions, what
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: did you think about that?
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: How did it feel to see no public.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Outcry for Nicole and only praise for OJ and sort
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: of his new job?
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: It's kind of inconceivable today.
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: Well, today it would not happen. You got to remember
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: this was 32 years ago. No longer than that. 32
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: years since she was murdered. It was before that. So
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: you have to really look back and think, wow, there
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: was no outcry then. Everybody put him up on a pedestal.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: He could do no wrong. And even when he made
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: light of it, I guess in an interview or when
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: he first, the first day of his new job as
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: an analyst, he made light of it and said, ah,
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: we just had a fight. You know, they blew it
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: all out of proportion and everybody was like, okay with it.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: But see, this is where I sit there and I think,
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: and this is so hard for me to say, because
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: I truly believe that Nicole had no way out. I
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: think that Nicole was put on this earth to be
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: that base of domestic violence because, well, so many wonderful
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: things happened after that. And he was so loved that
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: nobody did anything. And how many times do they have
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: to be, the police have to be called to the
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: house in order for them to even do something. He
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: even said it in his own words. Hey, you guys
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: have been out here eight times and you've never done anything.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: This is the family matter, you know? And so I
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: sit there and I just think, gosh, if people just
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: wouldn't put people that can throw a ball, hit a ball, run,
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: do all that stuff, put these people that they don't
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: know up on a pedestal. Yes. Think that they do
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: wonderful at the sport that they're doing. but don't put
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: them up on a pedestal that they're above the law,
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: that they are, you know, like these wonderful human beings.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: They may be good at throwing a ball or shooting
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: a basket. It doesn't make them a good human being. No,
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: it doesn't make them a good person. That's right. So
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: that's the hardest thing for me to come to the realization,
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: but knowing after Nicole's murder, that the Violence Against Women
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: Act was signed into law three months after Nicole's murder.
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: And then a year later, the 24-hour National Domestic Violence
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: Hotline was put into place. The bill was signed into
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: law by President Bill Clinton. The National Domestic Violence Hotline
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: was done because of the Violence Against Women Act and
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: funding that President Joe Biden, Senator, at the time did
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: the violence against women act when i went to congress
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: and i spoke out about it they increased the funding
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: and this is something that i am truly proud of
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: because they increased the funding from 18 million to 32
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: million dollars so that they could start funding programs.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: That is incredible.
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: That was something that, yeah, I'll, I'm, yeah, that's something
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: I'm very, very proud of.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: You know, I talk about this a lot on this
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: podcast about how, sorry.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: No.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know how, like, I don't know how you
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: do this. I really don't know how you're doing this.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: because it's very hard for me to do this interview
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: and I just don't know how I'm, I'm in awe
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: of you is.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: What I want to say.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: Oh gosh, thank you.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: You know, you say it feel like, no, Nicole was
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: kind of, that became her, her legacy, like she was
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: put on this earth to be the face of this.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: And I, you know, you also, you, this was not
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: the plan for your life and you, you, chose to
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: make this have meaning and to answer the call of
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: your life, so to speak. And I just feel like
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: that is, it's so admirable. It's so impressive. I just,
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: I think like I'm very, very moved by that. So
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: we all as a culture, thank you.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: It is moving mountains to try to change policy.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: Anybody that has in any way tried to do that
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: understands that. So what you did is, is just phenomenal.
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: Well, I feel like Nicole's not here any longer. And
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: ever since she was yay big, you know, I was
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: always there protecting her in a baby carriage. My mother
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: used to tell me stories, Hey, you would stand in
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: between people and Nicole because you said, no, no, no,
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: you can't touch her. So I always felt like I
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: was there to protect her. And then when all of
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: this happened, I felt the need to protect my family
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: because there was so much ugly and so many ugly
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: things were happening. And I felt the need to protect
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: them too. And I don't know why I took on
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: that role. And I just, it just kind of happened.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: But I felt like I had nothing to lose. I
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: had already lost everything. I had lost my best friend.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: I lost my sister in the most horrific way. And
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: I just think that, you know, going forward and moving
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: forward was the least thing I could do to help her,
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: to protect her. To protect her when they were talking
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: such ugly stories about her. And I thought, you know, Denise,
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: you have nothing to lose. It's like, get out there
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: and protect your sister. Yeah. And so that's how the
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: whole journey started. And, you know, I mean, when this
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: whole thing started, I thought I was going to throw
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: up the first time I had to speak. I was
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: not a speaker. So, you know, over the years, I
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: have grown. And I did realize that, hey, this is
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: not a grade for me. This is for Nicole. And
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: now it's for everyone else out there that needs help. Right.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Another very, very moving part of the book that after
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: Nicole died, your family discovered the writings in which she
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: had documented abuse that you knew nothing about. And there's
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: just a devastating scene where your father is reading Nicole's journals.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: And what do you remember about watching him realize what
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: his daughter had been living through while at the same
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: time you're handling your own grief?
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: When I, he called me back to his bedroom and
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: he said, Denise, he goes, take a look at this.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: And I started looking and I started reading and I said,
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: Oh my God. I said, we were there. We were there.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Oh my God.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: Why didn't she tell us? And then I just took
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: them and I threw them down on the bed and
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: I left the room and I came back and my
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: dad was still reading the diaries. And I thought, Oh,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh my gosh. And I just saw him.
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: It kind of reminded me of when I was up
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: on the stand and I was being asked questions and
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: I saw my dad crying in the courtroom. And this
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: reminded me so of that because he was like, I
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: don't know. I mean, it was just like, he was
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: just looked so defeated and just looked so rushed and
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: not understanding what the hell he was reading and why
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: all of this stuff was happening.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: And that was before we started understanding what that why
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: question was. Right. Right.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: You know, it's, it's very upsetting to see a parent, upset.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: You know, it's like the ultimate feeling of helplessness, I think.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: It is, you know, it really truly is.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: So you, you remember telling Nicole that she needed to
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: get away from OJ and Nicole telling you that she
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: didn't want to ruin his career or his reputation and
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: saying things like, I can't do that to my children.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: How much did protecting her children keep her in that relationship?
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: Do you think? I think a lot because Nicole always
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: wanted the white picket fence. She always wanted a family
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: and she had two kids. She had a husband. She
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: wanted to make it work. She always wanted that. So
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: I think it meant a lot to her to tell me, hey, Denise,
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: she goes, I am not going to ruin his career.
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to ruin his life. He is the
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: father of my children. And I'm like, well, you don't
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: have to ruin his career or his life leaving him.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: But she felt that that's exactly what it would be.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: It would be ruining his life. Or now looking back,
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: maybe she felt like he would take custody of the
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: children or threaten to hurt the family or because a
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: lot of abusers do things like that, right? So what
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: was going on in her mind when she said that?
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: I took her for her word, but there could have
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: been so many things in the back of her mind,
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: you know, because a victim is the only one that
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: knows how really horrific things as horrible and evil an
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: abuser can be. Yeah.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: I think about that, the amount of.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: It just has to be so all-encompassing and the things
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: that she's constantly having to do, aside from the basics
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: of life, of taking care of her children and herself
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: and things, that constant having to protect herself, having to
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: create a reality that is different than what it really is,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: and that fear... It's just it has to be exhausting
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: beyond comprehension.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: And, you know, when you look at her, you would
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: have never known. Right. She hit it so well. And
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: she was just a beautiful woman. She was she was
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: a beautiful girl. She was a beautiful baby. I mean,
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: she was she just radiated beauty. And she was one
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: that could get herself together. She could be gardening in
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: the backyard and all dirty or playing with the kids.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: And half hour later, she'd be ready for a black
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: tie event. Right. I mean, she was really a remarkable woman.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: And so it's just so sad for me. It's so sad.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: You know, I just wish that she could have just
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: seen how her kids grew up, how, you know, like
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: seeing them graduate, see them, you know, experience life, be
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: there for them. I mean, she missed so much. She
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: missed graduation. She missed, she missed everything, you know? I mean,
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: she just missed their whole life. They were babies.
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Um, On New Year's Day in 1989, Nicole called the
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: police after OJ assaulted her, and he ultimately pleaded no
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: contest to spousal battery.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Do you see that.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: As a moment when authorities had a real opportunity to intervene?
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know if we had lots back then. What
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: kind of laws did we have besides a law enforcement
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: officer coming over to the house and saying, take a
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: walk around the block and cool off? Those were the
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: laws back then.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: This is like the equipment.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Of write an essay after you've brutally gang raped a
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: woman don't even get me started.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: Don't even get me started no that yeah exactly and
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: you know for him to plead no contest and get
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: a slap on the wrist Use whatever kind of therapist
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: he wants to. Call them twice. I can't believe somebody
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: had mentioned something about a year of counseling. Yeah, I
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: don't think so. I don't think so. I honestly don't
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: believe it. I heard that there was two times he
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: called them and it was a therapist of his choosing. And,
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: you know, I just think that, well, can I just
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: tell you one thing that I'm really, really excited about? Yes. Okay,
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: talking about restraining orders. And there is a Carrie's Law
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: in Connecticut. A woman contacted me. And what they are
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: trying to do now, and they're getting some traction, is
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: getting a law passed for GPS, an ankle monitor for perpetrators,
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: instead of just that piece of paper of a restraining order.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: actually monitor their every move. Now, how great would that be?
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Great.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Because then, okay, the restraining order says you have
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: to stay 100 yards away.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: It will reveal stalking. It will prevent stalking.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Right. And it'll prevent murders because oftentimes that little piece
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: of paper, they could still be hiding behind your closet
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: if they get in your door. And that's how a
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: lot of laws initially have changed. But why do we
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: have to have a murder before something is actually really done?
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: So I think the GPS, the ankle monitors, if you're
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: convicted of domestic violence and you need a restraining order,
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: even for a week, two weeks before you go to trial,
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: stick that ankle monitor on that perpetrator and just so
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: that you could make sure that this woman stays alive. Yes.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: I love it. And this is happening in Connecticut. So
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: I am backing that. I am thrilled about that. I
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: think it's absolutely wonderful.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, me too.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Going back to 89, after that attack, Nicole asked you
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: to photograph her injuries because she wanted to keep a record.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: And those photos were later found in her safe deposit box.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: And you talk about Nicole's planning while minimizing, which I
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: think is such a great term by having you take
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: these photos of her bruises, but saying she'd take them to,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: you know, the discreet photo lab and not really, they're
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: not that big of a deal. So can you talk
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: about that dichotomy with victims?
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: Well, with Nicole, when she asked me to take those pictures,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: I said, well, what are you going to do with them?
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: She said, I don't know. She didn't know what she
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: was doing with them. She just wanted to have them.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: What was going on in the back of her head
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: with that? I don't exactly know. But I do know
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: that when she went to the police station, they took
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: the pictures of her with her sweatpants on and they
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: were all muddy. That one they took there. So all
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: the pictures, did she take them to the police station?
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: Did they take their own pictures of Nicole that looked
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: like the ones that I took? I don't know. But
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: I do know that they were leaked and that they
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: were going to be released to the National Enquirer. Because
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: she called me and she said, Denise, I have to
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: get out of town. Will you go with me? And
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: I said, what do you mean you have to get
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: out of town? She said, the National Enquirer has got
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: some pictures of me and I don't want to be
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: here when they're released. And so I said, oh my God.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: And you know, you sit there and you think, the
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: National Enquirer and all those kind of tabloid magazines. It's like, wow,
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: my sister is going to be on that or in
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: that magazine. Because back in the day, I mean, it
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: was just, well, you didn't want to be in the
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: National Enquirer that way. And so anyway, so she said,
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: will you go with me to Cabo? Let's go. Let's
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: just grab the kids and go. And so we did.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: And we went down to Cabo. And that's where she
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: told me. Yeah, when we got there, I said, okay,
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: we had a conversation. She says, no, I'm not going
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: to ruin his life. I'm not going to do that.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: I don't want to ruin his career. I don't want
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: to ruin his life. I don't want to, you know,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: I just don't want to do that. And I heard
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: that probably about six, seven, eight, nine, 10 times. And finally,
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: I just said, you know what? I'm going to let
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: it go. And then it was, we had a fun time.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: We had such a great time down there. The old
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: Nicole came back. And it was horseback riding. We went
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: to the beach. We did everything with the kids and
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: it was really, really a wonderful time. And then she
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: told me, she says, well, maybe we'll stay down here
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: a little bit longer. And because I do not want
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: to go back and have, you know, Oh God, Nicole,
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: I'm so sorry. I, she didn't want the, the people
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: and friends calling her and saying, Oh, I'm so sorry.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: Boo hoo. You know, all that kind of stuff. I'm
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: sorry this happened to you. So, yeah. And it, It
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: kind of makes me think about what Ron Hardy said.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: Ron Hardy was a good friend of Nicole's. And he
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: was in the Life and Murder of Nicole Brown Simpson,
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: the documentary that us sisters did. And I asked him
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: when he got done filming, I said, Ron, I said,
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: did Nicole ever share any abuse with you? And he said, no.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: And I said, he says, you know what? I think
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: the reason she didn't say anything was to protect her
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: family and her friends. And that I understood. That made
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: sense to me. Because then you sit there and you
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: think of all the things, like I was telling you earlier,
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: threatening to kill the family, threatening to take the kids
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: away from you, threatening, threatening, threatening all the different things
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: that they can come up with. And you're the only
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: one that actually knows how bad the person can be.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: In listening to the 911 calls.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: I've never heard it.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: You haven't?
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: So that's what I was going to ask you. I
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: watched last night the courtroom piece of that, where they
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: play the one from 93 in its entirety. And what
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: is so unbelievable to me is that it's 15 minutes long.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh. I didn't even know that.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Several things are striking to me. First of all, what
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: was most upsetting to me, it's obviously upsetting because you
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: hear her in terror and you hear him just screaming
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: and cursing and yelling and upset.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: It's just outrageous. But in the.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Courtroom, this is going to make me cry too, his
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: attorneys sitting there, the one Couldn't even look at him.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: So it was Robert Shapiro, Johnny Cochran and the other Douglas.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: And he couldn't even look at OJ. And I was like,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: how can you defend this person? You can't even look
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: at him. It was so appalling. Johnny Cochran sort of
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: like chatting with him and, you know, uh, trying to
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: sort of distract and make it seem like nothing's happening.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: And Robert Shapiro is in the back and he's just
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: sort of staring at into space.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Like, how did I get here?
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: And this thing, I just think I cannot understand how
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: this man was not convicted. I just cannot understand it.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: Well, I learned a lot from that whole thing because
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: the trial one should have been held in Santa Monica. Yes. The,
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: you know, the murders happened there too. There were the riots,
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: Los Angeles riots downtown, Reginald Denny and the other one.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: So then my father, after the trial, he got a
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: phone call from one of the jurors and the juror
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: told him, Mr. Brown, I need to tell you, or
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure when it was. I don't remember offhand now,
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: but he got a phone call and he said, I
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: just want to let you know that I heard the
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: jurors after we were sequestered, I heard the jurors saying
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: that now it's payback time. She went up to judge
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: Edo and said, told them exactly what she heard. And he,
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: judge Edo let her go. Not the person that said
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: it's payback time.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: He excused her.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: He excused the woman that went up and said this
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: after they were sequestered. So I have learned so much
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: after all of, you know, about the trials and about,
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: you know, the rights that we had that I didn't
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: know that we had, you know, victim services was there
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: with us, and they were wonderful. But I didn't know that, hey,
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: we have the right to ask all kinds of questions.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: And why did you do this? And why didn't you
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: do this? And, you know, to I just, we really
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: thought we were in good hands, that people were, we'd
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: never been through this before. We had never been to
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: court before. So you always want to believe that these
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: people that are representing your sister or you in court
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: for that matter, or anybody that they're doing this for
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: you in your best interest. Well, I learned that it's
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: not all about that. It's about winning a case and
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: they'll do whatever they possibly can to win a case.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: And that was the defense. And, you know, I even
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: write in the book when he tried on the glove. Hello.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: He was not sworn in. Judge Edo should have never
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: allowed it. He made a mockery of the whole court
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: system by doing this, because unless you're sworn in, you're
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: not allowed to do that. Unless you're up on the stand,
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: you're sworn in. This is the truth, the whole truth
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: and nothing but the truth. I had to do that
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: when I went up on the stand. But no, he
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: could just show off and just do whatever he had
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: to do. Disgusting, disgusting, disgusting. So I can say that
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: it's not the best thing that I have ever done
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: in my whole entire life or remember in my whole
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: entire life or experienced in my whole entire life because
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: they made a mockery out of our judicial system.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: And it was such a specific moment in Los Angeles.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: There were so many things. I moved to LA. I'm
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: not going to make this about me. I'll tell you
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: this offline. But I'm fiercely aware of that moment and
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: how specific it was and all the things at play,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: that the DA needed a win, that people were rightfully
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: so outraged about the racism that was going on. And
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: it was like the perfect storm to turn it into
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: that when it really had nothing to do with that.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: Nothing to do with it, no.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Well, I have one more question. One more question.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: So you've spent 30 years talking about the worst thing
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: that ever happened to your family. And was there anything
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: about writing this book that you still weren't prepared to confront?
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, probably the afterword that I told you about coming
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: to that realization that Nicole was that face of domestic violence.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: That she was put on this earth for that. And that...
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: That was a hard realization for me. And every time
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: I think about it, it's a hard realization. It's just like,
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: why her? Why Nicole? When this was happening to so
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: many people before. It's like, why did it take Nicole? Well,
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: I know why it took Nicole. Because people used to
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: think it happened to poor and homeless people. Nicole wasn't poor.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: She wasn't homeless. She was a beautiful woman with so
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: much life and so much to do ahead of her.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: So why her? Why didn't people take it seriously before?
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: You know, I still have a thousand why questions. I'll
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: tell you. I don't think my why questions will ever
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: end or ever be answered because she's one not here
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: to answer them. And I don't think anybody has an
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: answer for that. Yeah. Why Nicole? Yeah. Oh, Denise.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: So the book is called For My Sister Nicole, Love
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Shouldn't Hurt, What to Know About Domestic Violence. Denise, I
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: can't thank you enough for this conversation. I am in
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: awe of you. Again, I'm just profoundly sorry that you
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: even have to do this. But I'm grateful for all
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: of the work you're doing, as are all of the
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: women in this country.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Thank you. Well, thank you. It's
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: been a pleasure and it was really great meeting you.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: You too.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Everyone buy this book and read it. It's beautiful and
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: it's important. Thank you so much, Denise.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: Thank you.