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Behind the Badge From a Retired Detective with Justin Bocock · Let's Get Naked

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, I'm Anne.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Let's Get Naked podcast, where we dive deep into vulnerability.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: In this space, we'll explore what triggers us, uncover the patterns holding us back, and discover how to take charge of our own growth.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you're ready to dig in, be vulnerable, and face the tough stuff, then buckle up.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's time to get naked.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: For anyone who has listened regularly or has heard my format previously, I normally do a rant as I'm opening the show.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: And this morning I didn't have it in me.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so I didn't.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, vulnerability speaking, I just didn't have the energy to be able to pull it out.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: I had a big weekend of emotional stuff and things that were coming up for me.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I woke up this morning, which is when I normally do my writing, and just was not there as far as just the bandwidth to be able to do that.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I figured my guest today is so amazing that he will be able to roll with the punches regardless of whether I have some witty opening rant or not.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're just gonna dive right into it.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: So my guest today is Justin Bocock.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: He is a retired homicide detective, author of On Call and Criminal Investigations Expert.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are going to dive into all sorts of things, including a lot of his opinions, because I'm very curious about that.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so yeah, welcome, Justin.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming and joining us today.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks for thanks for having me.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_05: I really appreciate it.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um I am completely fascinated by what you've done in your career.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're retired now, but you spent your entire career as a as a homicide detective.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_05: Well, as a police officer.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, police officer.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_05: You don't just go to homicide detective.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_05: You have to kind of earn your way up there.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me tell me a little bit about that process so that I understand what that looks like.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_05: So I started actually did the opposite of it, most people.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_05: Um I started with the federal service and then went to the local service.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_05: And I only got involved in the federal, I never wanted to be a cop.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_05: And that never really came across to me.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um I joined the military, I was in the Air Force, and I worked on big, large aircraft maintenance on large aircraft.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_05: And part of our mission was we transported the limousines for presidential movements.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_05: So I met Secret Service.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_05: I was getting ready to get out, didn't really have a whole lot of job op opportunities or options.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_05: And um I fixed a plane, and uh, one of the agents said, Hey, have you ever heard about Uniform Division, Secret Service?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, they like people who are quick on their feet and things like that.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_05: I said, No, I never heard of it.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_05: Ultimately I applied.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_05: It took about a year and a half, two years to get through the process, but I got hired.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_05: Um so I went to the Secret Service Uniform Division.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and after the extensive training, I went to uh I was assigned to the Naval Observatory, which is the vice president's official residence.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and this was under Al Gore.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_05: So it was Vice President Al Gore when I was there.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_05: This was in uh 99 to 2001.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_05: And uh I got my first taste of law enforcement, and I really liked because we were federal officers, so we were trained in federal law enforcement, but we basically did protection.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_05: And um, that's also when I learned that sitting still is not my uh is not my game.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_05: And uh because protection is a lot of sitting, a lot of just you know, you gotta be there for when the thing happens, it never happens.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_05: And uh so I kind of so I was kind of questioning what I was doing, but I really liked the law enforcement aspect of it.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_05: And then um I got a call from a friend at the White House who said there's a guy from Mesa Police Department in Mesa, Arizona, and they're a new department and they're hiring.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm originally from Tucson, um, which is not far from Mesa.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_05: So I was like, okay, yeah.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_05: So I also applied with them.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_05: I got um offered a job and I I took it.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_05: Um had to go through the academy again, uh, start out as a patrol officer, as everybody does as a police officer.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, you have to start out.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_05: To solve a homicide, you have to solve a shoplift.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_05: You know, and then and I always say to solve a homicide, you have to be able to solve a beer run.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_05: So everything was a building block.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_05: You start as a police officer, just learning as a new officer in uniform in a patrol car, pulling up to people, random people on the street, getting out and just talking with them.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_05: Hi, how are you?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_05: Can I see some ID?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_05: What are you doing in the area?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_05: What's suspicious?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_05: What's not?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_05: When are you getting lied to?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_05: When are you not being lied to?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_05: When someone's acting genuine, when they're not acting genuine.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_05: Those are skills that you have to have a base before you get to actual investigations.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so I did that for six years, patrol officer.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_05: And then in 2007, um, I applied to be a detective, took test, um, and I started out with uh it's basically a testing process and an interview.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I started out on the night shift, and I was the beer run detective.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and I literally saw beer runs.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_05: And people don't know what a beer run is, that's basically just a shoplift where people steal beer.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but they go to a detective, and it's a lot of photo lineups and it's a lot of video type work, but you have to learn that because in homicide, you know, we do a lot of video work and photo lineups.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_05: So it's it's building blocks.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_05: And then um one night a shooting happened.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_05: I was the only detective on duty for the entire city, and it was mine.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_05: And that's when I fell in love with violent crimes.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I was like, I want to do this, is what I want to do.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_05: I want to do violent crimes and robberies.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_05: So from there I did uh violent crimes like aggravated assaults, so shootings and then robberies.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_05: Um I was head of the serial robbery division um for about a year.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_05: Um and then in 2012 I tested for the homicide unit, and um I went in there and I did finish my last eight years of my 20-year career.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_05: Um, my last eight years were in homicide.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: What was it about that first one that was like it sparked your soul where you knew you wanted to do that?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_05: The excitement.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_05: The excitement.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's like the adrenaline rush of all of that.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_05: It's as a patrol officer, the excitement is when you run after somebody, right?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_05: So you're running and you're jumping walls, and then you get the person in handcuffs.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_05: And you're like, oh, that was exciting, you know.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_05: But after a while, that starts to kind of fade.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_05: And as a detective, the thrill of the game is solving the case.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_05: So this that particular that particular shooting, there was no witnesses, it all came down to video, it all came down to kind of circumstantial.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_05: Um, there wasn't any fingerprints, it was an outdoor shooting, it was just like a random two people come across each other and shots are fired.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_05: So it took a little bit of work to get there.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_05: And then and the interview, it was a multiple-hour interview, and I finally got the guy to break.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_05: I showed him pictures.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, he was like, Nope, I was at my girlfriend's house, my girlfriend's house, it wasn't me, wasn't me.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_05: Let's take a break.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_05: Come back, show him the picture, like a video surveillance, and he's like, mmm.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I go, well, and just so you know, I got pictures of you because I've been watching you for a little while, and you wore that shirt on Friday.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_05: That's my favorite shirt.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_05: He's like, I was lying to you.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_05: Good call, detective.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_05: You know, you you got me.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_05: That feels good.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and that is I call that, you know, like almost like the post-conviction high.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_05: You get that adrenaline rush of like, I just solved goosebumps, just it's like, I just solved the crime.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I literally just solved the crime.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_05: I'm a real detective.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_05: So after that, you want to keep going.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_05: And you're like, okay, well, now what can I solve?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_05: You know, now, oh, a serial robber, serial robbery, multiple people stealing a lot of different things.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_05: I want that case because I want to solve that too.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_05: So kind of that constant drive to get that.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and chasing that high.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one thing I've always been curious about when in your line of work, um, when you watch TV and you see people, and and it's like, it's not like a nine to five job, right?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just like when like what does that look like as far as like here's what your day looks like?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: How do you plan your family around that?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're taking your work home, no matter whether you want to or not, in your head, right?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're running scenarios and trying to come up with solutions.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is that what does that look like as far as just your regular day?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I mean, some days it's um you go into the office and you sit in your you're sitting in your cube for eight hours or ten hours.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_05: We work 10 hour shifts.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_05: So some days you'd go and you'd sit in your cube for 10 hours and just write reports.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_05: And some days they were boring.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_05: I I will straight up admit some days you're like, I want something to happen.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_05: Like it's it's just boring.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: I want someone to die quickly.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_05: Not necessarily that.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_05: I'm just kidding.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_05: I'm just kidding.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah, but you are, but you're like, that's what you do, right?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_05: So um, and then there's other days where you don't see the office for weeks, where there's times where I've been called out.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_05: So like I get a call at two in the morning, like, hey, we have a homicide, or we have a you know, a major investigation, officer involved shooting, whatever.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_05: And I leave the house and I'm not coming back for three days because I'm literally sleeping in my car, sleeping in the office.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_05: Um, you're just working continually to try to solve the case.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_05: So it really depends.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_05: And that's kind of the fun of it because some days I always wore a tie to work.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I always wore a tie because I I always say, dress the part.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_05: You know, when you walk into that room, people they have a certain vision of what a homicide detective is gonna be.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_05: And if you come in there in jeans and a t-shirt, they're like, I don't think you're a real detective.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_05: So you go in there dressing the part, and they're like, oh no, like this is a real detective.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_05: Like, I better watch what I say.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, um, but I would show up in a in a tie and a shirt, and by the end of the day, the sleeves are rolled up, and I'm with boots on in a trash can or in a dumpster sorting through trash.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and other days I'm putting a tie on or I'm putting my suit, my jacket on, and I'm at a judge's house getting a search warrant signed.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_05: So it it really varies, but that was kind of the excitement of it because you just never knew what was coming.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like you wake up and leave the house in the morning and it's like, could be hell, could be breakfast.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: You have no idea what's happening.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_05: In my car, I always had um always had a suit jacket, always had a spare shirt and tie, um, always had like muck boots, we call them muck boots, which is basically like just cheap boots that I could wear in like you know, dumpsters and things like that.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_05: I always carried a blanket and a pillow because there's a lot of times, or sometimes I would just grab a quick nap in the backseat of my work car.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I always had uh snacks.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_05: Summertime I had a cooler with water, yeah, and I always had snacks in the car.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_05: And that was just kind of a thing of like that's how you roll because you just don't know.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_05: You never know.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes we would get crimes that would take us out of the county or within the state or even out of the state.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes we've driven to California when you go to work, and then I gotta call the wife, say, Hey, I'm driving to California.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, or yeah, we got a red-eye flight.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_05: We're flying, one case, uh, we're flying to Tennessee tonight uh for three days.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm gonna go home and pack a bag.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I love you.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_05: I'll see you in a couple days.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_05: I'll let you know when I come home.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is there is there any there's not really any danger associated with that, with the detective part, obviously with being a cop, right?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: There is because you're out beating the streets, but when you're a detective, it's more you're you're like you, I like it come from the wife's perspective, right?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: When you tell your wife I'm not coming home for a couple of days, is she sitting there biting her nails worrying, or not really, because it's like, now you're out solving things and it's not like I'm worried he's gonna get shot kind of situation.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, no, and it's still dangerous.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um there's actually, I actually write about it in uh one of the chapters of my book.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_05: Um and like and I I I started out with saying, I always knew as a cop that you always have that idea that something bad's gonna happen, that something bad could happen.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_05: And I've never I've had friends and peers get injured, but never killed.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_05: And I've always been very lucky on that, not gonna wood.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_05: And um, even as a detective, you knew it was coming, but you never really kind of expected it, and you kind of take it for granted.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_05: And we took it for granted, and there was a situation where my partner went by herself and ended up confronting the homicide the homicide suspect basically by herself.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_05: Oh wow and we didn't realize it.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_05: It's like when by the time we realized what was going on, we're trying to get a hold of her on the radio, and she gets on the radio and she's like, I got one at gunpoint.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_05: And we're like, oh my God, we gotta get there.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_05: Like, oh my God.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_05: And we let our guard down.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_05: We really did, genuinely let our guard down.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_05: And then you have to always realize being a detective is just as dangerous as being a patrol officer because crime doesn't care.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_05: They're like, oh, well, you have a tie on.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you're not a threat.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they see you as somebody who's gonna put them in handcuffs and put them in jail, and they will do anything they can not to be in handcuffs and not be in jail, and if that means hurting you or whatever, that's how it is.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they're back, and you're getting them backed into a corner, which is a whole thing.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, will you tell me?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's a couple of different things that it talks about.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Describe your journey and three life events on our questionnaire.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, will you talk about those things for me?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh not knowing your father, that's a big one.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a huge one.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh joining the military, and then being a police officer detective.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, so tell me what that looks like about not knowing your father, if you don't mind me going into there, because you said topics to avoid, nothing yet.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll find out if that's if that's true.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_05: I'm an open book.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_05: No, um, I met my father.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I went on a two-week, when I think it was about 12.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_05: I went to two weeks.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_05: He was so him and my mom um got married, uh, then they had me.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_05: Um, he was an alcoholic in the Air Force.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and then they got divorced when I was about two or three years old.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and he was stactioned at Davis Montin, which is an Air Force Base in Tucson, and he worked on, he was a launcher for nuclear missiles.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_05: So very stressful job.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, right.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_05: Um he ended up going to Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_05: Um and when I was about 12, I went out to visit him for two weeks.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and it was with uh he had a new wife, and then they had a daughter together, and then she had two children.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_05: So like it's kind of like part of the family.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I he worked the whole time, so I didn't really see him.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't really spend a lot of time with them.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_05: I spent a lot of time with the children.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_05: We were we were good friends when I was there for two weeks.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_05: Um and that was the only contact I really had with them.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_05: I I really don't know much about my father.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and then I ended up joining the Air Force when I turned 18.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_05: And it wasn't because of him, it was because I wanted I really loved airplanes and I wanted to join the Air Force.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_05: Um but I had heard through my grandmother that still kept in contact with his family that his mother had died.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_05: Um and I was 19 at that time.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_05: And between 12 and 19, nothing.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_05: Nothing.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, yeah, nothing of substance.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, maybe there were cards, but I don't remember them.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_05: Uh there was no phone calls.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_05: I don't remember those.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and so I called him just to kind of say, hey, you know, I'm sorry that your mother died.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and also I was like, hey, you know, I'm in the Air Force.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_05: And when you're in the Air Force, you can take trips from one base to another.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_05: Like if they have a plane going out of a station at Maguire, New Jersey.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_05: So if they had an airplane that was flying from Maguire Air Force Base, New Jersey to Vandenberg for whatever reason, if they had room on there as an Air Force personnel, you could just jump on there.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_05: And they call it a jump flight.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_05: You could basically just say, Hey, I got family there, take leave, and I can fly to another base.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_05: So I said, Hey, you know, if I ever he's like, Yeah, he goes, Well, thank you.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_05: But it he was like, Well, you know, if you're ever out in Vandenberg, yeah, we can go to lunch or something like that.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_05: And I just was kind of like, well, I I don't know what else to say.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_05: Like, I'm not gonna beg.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_05: So that I never played the victim on that of like, I don't have a dad.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_05: I looked at it as something that it happened for a reason.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I think it made me a stronger person because it when I became when I got married and became a father, I had no role models for it except for TV.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_05: You know, we learn from TV.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_05: I was a latchkey kid, so I just learned from that.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_05: So I was constantly searching of like what would my idea of a father be?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_05: So I had to kind of learn that as I go.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_05: And and I judge a lot of that on there because like I said, I don't see myself as a victim.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_05: I see myself as it happened, and that's the way that it was.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_05: You kind of move on with your life and do the best that you can.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_05: You kind of have to sometimes you gotta be your own hero.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and it also affected me when other people go, Oh, well, you know, I commit crime and I do this because I didn't have to be a child.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: I had a father.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_05: Like, well, neither did I.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you know what I mean?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_05: It's it was a choice that you made.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_05: Just be honest with yourself, just say because it's fun, you know, because I like to get high and and yeah, and and mess stuff up.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_05: Because that's fun.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_05: I I imagine it's fun.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah, that's always been a big thing.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_05: And even to this, I'm 50, and I still think about that.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_05: I still say, you know, what would okay, so how do I prepare for my son to go to college?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_05: You know, like how do what do I need to do as a dad?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_05: Google, chat GPT.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_05: Like, what are good lessons of this?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, you know, books and things like that, because I don't have that role model in there.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_05: So it's still affecting me in this day.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_05: So it's one of those things where I don't let it affect me, but it does affect me only because it's one of those things where I'm constantly learning.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not like, hey, dad, yeah, how do I do this?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_05: Or, you know, like what do I, you know, like what can I expect on this?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_05: It's something I have to learn on my own.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is he still alive or has he passed?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_05: I know.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_05: As far as I know, he's still alive.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: So so I I look at that from the standpoint of I thought all of the stuff that happened to me when I was younger was like, no big deal, no big deal.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: But when you realize that you're carrying the invisible weight around associated with that, because there are things that definitely are under the surface for you that come into not having a dad around, not having a dad that was like more pulls you in, right?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh sure, we'll have lunch.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like really, especially when you have kids, then you realize it's like, how does that how would you not want to be involved in my life?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: How could someone even keep you away from your son right now?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think that that's a testament to so many different things that happened back in the day for our parents and their parents that we don't even realize and they didn't talk about things.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there's it was just a different time now.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I look at that too and I say, There's no way that I wouldn't be involved in my kids' lives because I, you know, look at that from my first husband and him not being plugged in.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Not that he doesn't like it's your choice, right?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, whatever it is that they bring to the table, just it's just different.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: How many kiddos do you have?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_05: Uh one.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_05: One, okay, 16.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, 16-year-old son.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's a fun age.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I have a 19-year-old son, and I swear to God, he's and they're lovely.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Boys are so much fun.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just they're they're a lot.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, they are.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're a lot.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, so I want to get into on your questionnaire.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: It says last time I was upset.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I love this.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: It says I shouldn't let this get me upset, but recently the lies and misconceptions that the media reports about police officer enforcement actions and police use of force have been troubling.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: The reporting on the civil unrest in Minnesota has definitely caused some sleepless nights for me.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I um I keep my head so far in the sand as it relates to current events, I get little snippets from people, you know, or from like if you see something that flashes across a ticker tape or whatever.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously I know Minnesota's in a dumpster fire right now for all sorts of things, I think, right?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: I see little things about people scamming the childcare system, and obviously, you know, I'm I'm assuming the Minnesota stuff.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is this ice?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is this what we're talking about?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, before we started, it was like, do who wants your opinion?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I want your opinion.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and and give give me everything you've got on it.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe do this.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know if we have enough time for that.
• 18:03
  unknown: You're right.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe start with like setting the stage for me.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Pretend like I know nothing, which I which is very accurate, and just tell me a little bit and then what your thoughts are on how that affects police officers.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because I come from the standpoint of two, our police officers are here to help us, right?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And to to defend and to keep us safe and all of these things.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So when I s hear things like people talking about defund the police and stuff like that, I just chuckle because it's like, who is that the right answer to?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's just my base opinion on that.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: But then you tell me what you know and what that brings up for you.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_05: And it's most recently the Minnesota situation, and that's basically where ICE is use, so ICE is trying to enforce federal law.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_05: Um local protesters are preventing them from pre um from enforcing the law.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_05: So then force has to be used.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_05: Like you block a street, they unblock the street.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_05: If you yell at them or spit on them, they try to arrest you, and then there's a fight, and then somebody gets hurt.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and there have been people who have been killed.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm not justifying any of that, but I'm just saying nobody understands that.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_05: And it's not just the Minnesota situation, it's the George Floyd, it's any other situation out there.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_05: I love I watch a lot of news, but I watch a lot of like both news.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I won't say the networks, but I like, I almost like I I watch both of them because I like seeing how they both go in the exact opposite directions.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_05: And nobody is just commonsensical.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_05: But what I see routinely that upsets me is that everybody's always like, well, you just talk them down.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_05: There's no use to do that.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm thinking to myself, I've been in situations where I've had to point my gun at people because people just don't listen.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_05: It's just not that easy.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_05: If people were reasonable, we wouldn't need law enforcement, we wouldn't need laws, we wouldn't need any of that stuff.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_05: But there are a lot of unreasonable people, and whether it's because of their own actions, from my experience, it's almost always through alcohol, drugs, or mental illness, or a combination of all three, and they're just not reasonable.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_05: There are some people that you just cannot reason with, and I've dealt with them.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_05: I was on the streets as a patrol officer for over six years.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_05: Um, never got I got into two actual full-on fights in my police career.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_05: I was always the guy that would could talk someone down.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_05: I'm a I'm a talker, I'm a gabber.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_05: I could kind of BS you and hey, what's up, man, and kind of calm the situation down and kind of be cool.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_05: And there are some situations, one of them, um, a guy was just going from door to door, and I showed up.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like, hey man, what's going on?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_05: Neighbors called him, like, hey, he's knocking on doors, acting suspicious.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_05: I find him, hey man, what's up?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_05: He walks up to me, grabs my badge, and says, I'm gonna mess you up.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_05: And he uses the F-word, he's like, I'm gonna, he's like, I'm gonna mess you up.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_05: And the fight was on.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_05: And we we fought each other.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_05: And I got on the radio, I'm like, I'm like, help.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you know, everybody's coming.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_05: But we fought for a good about about two, three minutes.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_05: Um, he was ended up hurt, I ended up getting hurt.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_05: I had my elbows were all scraped up, he was all scraped up.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_05: We were in hospital beds next to each other.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_05: At one point, he looked over at me, he's like, Hey man, what are you here for?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, You don't remember any of that?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_05: No, man.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_05: I don't remember.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, long story short, he ended up having PCP in his in his system.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_05: He ended up buying some weed from somebody he didn't know.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_05: He had PCP, and he had this.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_05: And the reason that story is you just can't reason with some folks.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_05: So when I see media out there, and not even media, just even general public, even my own family members saying, Well, I don't understand why we can't just talk to them.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_05: Because people don't want to listen.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_05: And when they're told you don't have to listen to the police, they don't listen to the police, but the police have a function to do.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_05: If you block the roadway and people can't get to work, my job as the police is to make sure that people can go to work, is to keep order.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_05: And they're saying, I'm not moving.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_05: But you need to move, but I'm not moving.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not move, I'm not moving.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_05: We can keep going on and on that.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_05: At some point, somebody has to do something to enforce the law.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_05: So this attitude that we have of we don't have to listen to the police unless you agree with what they say.
• 21:53
  unknown: Right.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Which is bullshit.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_05: Which it is.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_05: It's like I'm only gonna listen to my parents if I agree with what they say, you know, which that's just not gonna happen.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_05: Um And people who have never been in a situation where you're told this is your job, you have to do this job, but everybody is going against you to do that job.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_05: So do you just quit or do you do your job?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_05: Because as a police, can I should I just walk away?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_05: Like, hey, Sarge, I asked him to put the knife down and he said no.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: It didn't go well.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_05: Not all we can do.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I guess we just gotta let him just, you know, walk around and see what happens, you know.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_05: But that's my job.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_05: So it's very frustrating for me when I see this and I see people say that.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, I see it on Twitter, and it's just like you just don't know, but you can never explain it to anybody.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_05: Like, no one's ever gonna I always I always tell my wife, you're not changing anybody's minds.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_05: No, like no.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, everybody, everybody's mind in that situation is already made up.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: But also, I think a lot of that comes in, you're gonna have a level of adrenaline that comes in whenever something happens that's normal human behavior, right?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're already in a position where you don't know what's happening around you.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Things are starting to get amped up a little bit.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know if somebody has a gun or otherwise.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like if the police ask you to do something, maybe just listen and be cool, right?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and and then also from the other side of it, there's so much emotion involved in it because that's exactly what media is meant to do.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's traditional media, whether it's social media, they put all of this out there and they say, Can you believe they're destroying our families?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can you believe they're tearing kids apart from blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And these people go, Oh my God.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it gets them so worked up that they feel compelled to come stand in front of police police officers or come, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe work on your own stuff.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm just throwing that out there as an option.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_05: I tell myself you ever stop by the police, follow them whether you are right or wrong, you follow all of their orders and directions.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_05: And we'll sort it out.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_05: They pull you out of car and a gun.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_05: I said, and if they're wrong, we'll sue the live in daylight side.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: We'll figure it out later, but this is not the right time to be a hero.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_05: The time to argue is not when a cop has a gun pointed at you.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_05: That's not the time to start saying, You don't have the right to do this, because all you're doing is making it worse.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_05: Comply, get on the ground, do whatever they do.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_05: Because I'm not, and that's the other thing, too, is you know, then I have family members say, Oh, well, you'll always take the cop's side.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_05: That's not true because I've seen things on TV and YouTube where I've seen it, I'm like, oh, like, you know, we were not trained to do that.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_05: And I don't know, maybe their department was, but I'm like m mistakes are made.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and and here's the whole thing nobody, nobody I don't think is trying to say mistakes don't get made when it comes to different things.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's really ballsy to think that you're going to go get in a cop's face and have him not do his job.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes right?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so if that job is, he has to use force to be able to.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, I don't know what's happening over there.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: All I know is when I get pulled over, I absolutely am, yes, sir, yes, ma'am.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, uh my bad, I'm in the wrong.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Usually I am in the wrong because I'm, you know, it's usually speeding or or something where, you know, there's all of that.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I'm a white woman in America, and so I I understand that I have different um whatever.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what I'm saying anymore, but uh I get I get it that it's different.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just okay, so you look at that.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Are you losing family members because of that?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because people are I hear I hear that's happening nowadays, and I just think that that's absolutely outrageous that we're literally dividing ourselves because of somebody's beliefs based on um the social media and everything ratcheting up up a notch, and it's like, how can you believe that how can you believe that you know that people should be deported, you know, back to back to other countries?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I look at it and I think I I come from a common sense, make it make sense kind of place.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: If we say it's an either or, we don't have enough resources for everybody.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Just look at it from a resource only perspective.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: We're not we're not even gonna talk about did they come illegally, should they be here, did they not, whatever.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: From a resources only perspective, if we say we don't have enough money to take care of our kids that live here, right?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because we don't, we're not doing a great job of taking care of our kids that live here, but we're gonna bring in a bunch of people who now we're gonna have them be a burden on the system as well, it's an either-or.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to take care of your kids or someone else's kids?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's an either-or.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: You don't get to have both, right?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: That makes it really easy for me.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_05: And for me, I look at it as if the law.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_05: Uh my my thing is always this.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_05: If the law says right now that you have to have certain, you have to go through certain hoops to become a citizen.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_05: And they're kind of not following the law on that, right?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_05: So if you get a detainer, if you hit if if the immigrant and people don't like the immigration courts, that's fine, change the law.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_05: You know, we have laws that we're just not following.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_05: Um I mean, just like for an example, that most people don't realize, marijuana is still illegally federal.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_05: Or federally, it's it's illegal.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_05: But yet Arizona has it legal.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_05: So we're just not, so we just ignored that federal law, but not the other federal laws.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_05: My thing is common sense.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_05: Immigration, whether the resources or all that kind of stuff, I don't care.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_05: That's not my job.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_05: My job is to elect people to make laws to make it sense.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_05: But if we have a law, at least follow the law.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_05: That'd be like me setting a bunch of rules and then not following those rules.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a rule follower though.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: This may or may not surprise you.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: I guarantee you it doesn't surprise anyone that knows me or anyone that's been listening to my show for a while.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I'm not a big rule follower.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if you say it's illegal because of whatever, I look at that example and I say, well, it's legal state-wise and it's not legal federal-wise.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's a make it make sense, also, you know.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_05: But then that's a but legally you could do it in Arizona.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_05: So you're good to go.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't follow rules, so I just do whatever I want.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_05: I'm a rule follower.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_05: I've always been a rule follower.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I have friends who are rule followers.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: God, this is a whole nother podcast all on its own.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people that are rule followers, have you ever looked to see like what that what that is that makes you that way?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because I find that fascinating.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: I look at how I was raised, and it was like very organized religion, very like trying to um force me into doing things I didn't want to do.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I literally rebelled against that.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so as an adult, right, I'm I'm 48 years old and I'm still like, hmm, that doesn't make sense to me.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm not doing that, right?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like also people that are, okay, when you get out on the road, you're gonna break the law to speed, but not to get in the HOV lane.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where's the line of where your compass is that you're saying, like, I will break this law, but I won't break that one?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I just say, I break them all, I take the risk, I'm I'm, you know, if I get pulled over, I'm happy to be very respectful.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I always am.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I will take you know, accountability for whatever it was that I did.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a ding-dong, I know what the laws are.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: But also that it just don't make sense to me a lot of times.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's funny to listen to you and talk to you, and it's like, okay, I'm very law.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, I'm like, okay, let's talk about resources or where it's, you know, that's where my head comes from in the world.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_05: And I still and I still break the laws.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_05: I still speed.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, every everybody does.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_05: But you're I think accountability becomes a big part of it.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_05: But like my wife is very much not the rule follower.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_05: She's like, oh, you know, we can scam the system by doing this.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like, oh no, I don't want to do that.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_05: And I was like, karma, like, you know, I'm like karma.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_05: Let's just let karma, I don't want karma getting to me.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_05: Let's just do what we got to do and just do the straight and narrow, and and and and and that's the best, you know, I'm the straight and narrow type of path.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know what?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: It takes all kinds.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I love that.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's the beautiful part, right?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: She can be the yin to your yang and and keep you all balanced out.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so back to back to Minnesota's falling apart.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's on fire.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: We got all sorts of stuff happening.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Keep going.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_05: Um oh, so as for the family, I have not lost a lot of family members.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_05: So I don't have a lot of family members.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_05: I don't have my mom.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but like friends, yeah.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_05: We don't talk as much.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_05: And when we do, we just talk like movies, you know, high school stuff.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_05: I know not to bring up politics because I've seen some of the things that they say, so I just avoid it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_05: I just I just avoid.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm smart enough to know that people get very upset about it.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_05: I personally like it upsets me, but I'm not gonna not like you as a person or a friend because you think differently about law enforcement than I do.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_05: Because you weren't in my position.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_05: Like you've never been a cop.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_05: For sure.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um, like my friends who are accountants and things.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_05: Like if they told me stuff, I wouldn't be like, Well, you're stupid because I could be an accountant.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_05: No, I couldn't be able to do it.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_05: I never walked a day in that, yeah.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I just never walked a day in the shoes.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_05: But some people are very, very tribal on that.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_05: And and and and I and I get that, I understand it, and I give them the space and just say, hey, I have a good friend in Oregon who we just talk about, you know, aliens and and Star Wars and things like that.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I know not to bring up politics because I know how he feels, and I know that I don't want to, my friendship is way more important than my opinion.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_05: So it's like one of those things where I just kind of avoid it.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_05: So I don't look for that confrontation.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but I see it all the time in society, and it just I want to yell out like, hey, you don't know.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_05: If you've never had to point a gun at somebody and tell them to stop, you just don't know.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_05: Just like I don't know your life, you don't know the cop's life.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_05: You really don't.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the deal: your life isn't going to magically fix itself.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody's coming to save you.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: But you can learn how to save yourself.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's what this book is.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's a no BS guide to stop outsourcing your happiness, stop making excuses, and start living with purpose.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you're tired of waiting for someday, consider this your wake-up call.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Someday of today.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Get your copy of the Life Hack Playbook on Amazon or on the podcast website, let's get nakedpodcast.com.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and like I was saying about the adrenaline and the emotions and whatever, you bring all of those things into play in this situation, and that's why bad things are happening.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's like people think that they are so strong in their convictions, because again, the media has just ramped everybody up.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: So no one's no one's based anymore.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: No one is at ground zero as far as, you know, when they leave the house, they're already at a seven or an eight.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so it just takes one little bump for them to go over the edge to think that they're okay to go question a cop or get in his way or whatever.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Are the cops doing the right thing?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, are the people doing the right thing?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: I personally don't care.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's just my personal opinion, right?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like when people talk about politics, don't care.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Are you for Trump?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Are you for whoever else the other guy is?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: I literally couldn't care because I just think that whole thing is a circus and their goal is to rob us of our attention and our focus and our energy, and that's exactly what's happening.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Is you watch them, they're in the business of dividing us and they're doing a great job.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody that looks at that that goes, this is what I believe, this is what I believe.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now I can't hang out with Aunt Sheila because she believes something different, or or my mom believes, you know, it's a big Trumper and I hate Trump, so I can't, you know, talk to my mom.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, are you guys out of your minds?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's literally what I look at from the outside of the person that doesn't pay attention to this stuff.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't pay attention to what's happening on the news.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: You couldn't pay me to turn the news on at my house.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Don't listen to it, don't have friends that we talk about it, any of that.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it is fun when I hear little nuggets about it.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, we're getting shot now, or when it's like, oh, we're eating babies now?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you just get these quick little sound bites, and I'm like, oh, we're eating babies and and you know, fucking children.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that's what we're doing now.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_05: I mean it sounds terrible when you say that, but it's like and being in the Secret Service, I was only there for a year and a half.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but I've met politicians.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_05: And I will say, a majority of the politicians that I've met or that I've watched, um, they're not they're not nice people.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_05: Of course.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_05: Like they're not the people that they come out to.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_05: They're just actors in the show.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_05: Like don't worry about the people.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_05: People always say oh, you know, Biden's amazing.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_05: And oh, Trump is different and amazing.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_05: They're all politicians.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_05: I've never met either one of those, yeah, but I've met politicians and I've seen politicians.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_05: They're not normal, they're not genuine normal people like you and I.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_05: No, they are not.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a circus.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at that new program.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_05: Some of them are extremely wealthy, of course, extremely privileged, no one's in there for extremely entitled individuals that are just telling you something to get power and money.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_05: And once you realize that, I think we I think if the whole world realized that, we might do a little bit better.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I think all of that started with okay, being in public service and all of the things.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: But when you let lobbyists come in and grease everybody's palm and you get money ruins everything, just so everyone knows.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a necessary evil, and I get that, but it does ruin everything.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you bring that in and it's like, who said who thought that was a good idea?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you have politicians that have more money and they're supposed to be like coming into service, also the other thing about politicians that I find very fascinating, uh, never once are they like, oh, my bad, we messed that up.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: What other industry is is like that where it's like no mistakes were made whatsoever?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's BS, and everybody knows that.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's gotten to a fever pitch of just emotions and anxiety and all of these things.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, I couldn't, I couldn't stay further away from it.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you guys want to blow each other up, blow each other up, let me know when it's over.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Are we at war?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is it on our soil?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I just could we die tomorrow?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: God, I can't wait.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I'm like I'm like Michael on the other show, like I'm so excited to die.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_05: I can't wait, but my soul's prepared.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, uh, listen, I've made peace.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, if you've been around anybody that's been taken, you know, at a young age, we're not guaranteed 80 years.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what you guys are living your life like this for.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then I look at the people that are on the social media and they're getting all involved because they don't think people I should be doing this.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And whether you think it should or whether you should think it shouldn't, maybe fix this shit in your own backyard before you're over telling other people what to do.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because I look at all of these, you know, just in society, everyone gets their numb of choice, right?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever that is.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone picks whatever their numb of choice is, they numb their own stuff, they don't fix their own shit, and then they go try to get into everybody else's business about what other people are doing with no information, with no knowledge, with no facts.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, if you haven't had to ever pull your gun at somebody else and understand what that is to be prepared to take another human's life, you don't understand, right?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I talk with my husband all the time about the perspective thing because it's like everyone is yelling into the void about whatever their opinion is.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, hey, ding dong, from a different perspective, here's what that looks like.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I have a piece of paper here and I'm looking at it and it has a six on it, and I'm saying, no, no, no, Justin, this is a six, and you're like, no, it's not, it's a nine, right?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna go to blows, potentially alienating family members, um, you know, burning things to the ground, getting so self-righteous and so justice and what, you know, justified in what your convictions are.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, that's not the hill to die on, you guys.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: We all have a completely unique perspective that not only is is fed by whatever your angle is that you're viewing it from, but then also all of the filters that you're looking through based on the things that you've seen, right?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's why it's always so always so important to me when you talk about, okay, you didn't have a dad that was present growing up, or did you have siblings, or what is your, you know, do you have kids or not have kids?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the kind of things that it's like, those are the filters that you look through because of what you've gone through, what your experiences have been.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: So those are going to be completely unique.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're a white man in America, I'm a white woman in America.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: We have very different experiences than maybe a black woman in America, maybe someone that lives in a different eco, you know, economic uh bracket, or or you know, somebody who has it doesn't even matter.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're all looking from different angles.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why in the world do we think that we should use media, whether it's social or traditional, to yell into the void to tell other people that our our opinions are right?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, we're all right.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and then what happens?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_05: You're absolutely right.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_05: And I always say, like, having lived back east, having lived in Washington, D.C., New Jersey, I also was in Seattle for a while, but from Arizona, Arizona, nobody cares about us in Arizona.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_05: Like I always tell my son, we live in Tatooine from Star Wars, like in the middle of nowhere.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_05: A lot of decisions are made back east for back easters.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_05: All the all the power central is from New York and Washington, D.C.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_05: So they make decisions that in Arizona, and people living in Arizona, it doesn't affect us.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_05: You know, they say things that are stupid.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_05: I remember they were talking for a while, like, well, we don't use air conditioning in New York, so we should get rid of air conditioning.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_05: Well, that's fine.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_05: Then I don't, I never use my heater.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_05: Then we should get rid of heaters.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, wait, you need that in New York, don't you?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_05: We're never thinking about the other parts of places.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_05: And then you're right, we have that bias.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_05: Everybody has that bias that they're constantly feeding on.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_05: And so I always say that, you know, Arizona's all the places I've lived in the country, Arizona's the best because we really are just like kind of out in the middle of nowhere, nobody cares about us.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_05: It's kind of a bad thing sometimes, but sometimes it's good just to be left alone and do your own thing.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're like the Wild West out here.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: We still are.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Arizona's my favorite.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: People don't get it.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've I've talked to people that came into town, and it's like somebody will walk in with a gun on their hip and they're like, what the hell?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you can watch people from back east just watching it.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, no, no, we don't fuck around out here.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, sorry, Michael, that one's coming out for sure.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm saying it.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um tell me about what one of your favorite cases.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think your book goes into like the different cases that you did and kind of so tell me about one of your favorite cases or one of your favorite chapters in your book that kind of I have I have so many cases that were good for dirt certain reasons.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_05: But one of the most satisfying was um it was a cold case, and I write about it in in uh my book.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_05: So as a homicide detective, when you take over that homicide unit, or when you take over that retiring, usually you only get out of homicide by either retiring or going to a new position.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_05: Um so when you when that the person that I took over his spot, he retired.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_05: So I took over all of his cases.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_05: And that's been the that's been the the the rules or the protocol since the beginning of Mesa.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_05: So I inherited a bunch of cold cases as well from all the detectives that were prior to me.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_05: So it's kind of a history thing, and it's kind of neat when you sit down and you look through the binders and you're like, okay, in my chair, all these other detectives have tried to work these cases as well.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_05: So my first year, I was like, I'm setting myself, I'm gonna go to my oldest case, which was a 1980s case that happened in Mesa on Super Bowl Sunday in 1980, and it was a sexual assault and murder of a 14-year-old girl.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_05: And um I was like, I'm gonna solve that one.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_05: Basically, it was solved.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_05: We had DNA, we had all kinds of evidence on there.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_05: There was a lot of procedural stuff that had to be done.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_05: And that's what I talk about a lot in my book is you know, the emotions of not just the sadness of the victims and the witnesses and just the situations, because they're all murder, so they're all sad.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but also the frustration of dealing with the criminal justice system where you're like, hey, I have DNA.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_05: I have matching DNA.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_05: Well, it's not good enough.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_05: We need more.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_05: What more do you want?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_05: You know?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_05: So working with them and basically sitting down and just being honest with them and saying, look, I want to bring this, I want to finish this case.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_05: It's basically we know who did this case.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_05: Um, this is the facts that we have.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_05: What gaps do you want to fill in to make this happen?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_05: And when you just basically say it like that and not be adversarial, I found an attorney who was very honest with me.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_05: I was like, okay, if you give me these three things, we're going to trial.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_05: So I got those things that I talk about in the book about how we kind of went about it, and we went through all different kinds of methods and got it and briefed it multiple times as a county attorney.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_05: And then finally, um, that third briefing, it was it was a it was it was a it was a big moment for me.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_05: Or again, I'm getting goosebumps.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_05: It was a big moment for me because I briefed basically the county attorney's office, all the homicide bureau detectives at that time is about 12 to 16.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_05: And the bureau chief goes, Okay, um, show of hands, go around the room.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_05: And it was like, yay, yay, yay, yay, and like, nay, yay, yay.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_05: And it was basically almost unanimous.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: That they wanted to prosecute.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_05: That they wanted to prosecute.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_05: And then and then and then the the chief's like, okay, you got it.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_05: He's like, fill the paperwork out and we'll file it.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, I we did it.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_05: So that's a case that again, it was one of those things where it just took a lot of work, a lot of communication.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_05: I spent more time selling it and communicating with people and just sitting down with them and saying, hey, I'll buy you lunch.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_05: Look, what do you want?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah just get away from the politics and the BS of you being a lawyer and me being a cop.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_05: What do you what do you want?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_05: Like, what is your ideal case that you want to have?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_05: And just being one-on-one with them, it was it was it's I started learning what they wanted.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_05: And like, if you know, with this, this, and this, I could do this in in in court.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_05: Because I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_05: But but if you talk to them, we you can find out the thing.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_05: So for me, that was a big win when we were able to get that that case because boom, I could check that off and go to the next one.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's probably never a shortage of those.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_05: No.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, talk to me about you know, feeling feeling vulnerable.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: And there was something in your questionnaire that you filled out that struck me where it was talking about the confidence in vulnerability.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was really powerful.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, something to the effect of when you release your book, and it is a very vulnerable feeling because it's like um I I liken it too, and this is completely inappropriate visual, and I don't care.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, showing the world the inside of your asshole.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, because it literally is this is how my brain thinks.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then I forget also that everyone has seen that.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I had a thing a couple of days ago where I went and I met some some friends of my husband's, um which, you know, by the way, hi Mark, hi Erica.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but met them, and when he's, you know, they're coming up and they're like, oh, we've listened to all of these episodes.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, oh shit, like you, I just don't think about that.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: I sit here with a microphone in front of me and I talk with people and I say all the things and I share and I never hold back because that's part of what my agreement with the universe is for doing the show and for doing the book is I'm not gonna sugarcoat it.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is what my experience has been, you know, whatever.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you're, you know, the the the rubber meets the road, it's kind of like I wonder what that looks like, you know, from the other side of someone listening.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: But you are showing the world the inside of your brain, you're showing them the inside of how your mind works, which to me is way more vulnerable than your story.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can tell my story and it's like this is what happened, this is what I did.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: But when you share your ideas or your opinions with other people, there's a vulnerability associated with that.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about what that has been for you.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_05: And that and that was it is I have always been a sharer.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_05: I always like I feel sad, and I have no problem talking with my emotions.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_05: Um, much to my wife's dismay, because I'm the communicator.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_05: I'm a huge communicator.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, wait a second.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: When you say when you don't have any problem talking to Your emotions like you don't have any problem expressing and feeling your emotions, and she does she doesn't love that, or she has a problem with her emotions.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_05: She grew up in a in a in a household where the where you did not a Midwest household where you don't talk about feelings.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that vulnerability is weakness.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_05: All of the things And I grew up with a single mom where you talk about your feelings, like that's what you do.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_05: If I feel sad, I say I feel sad because of this reason.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, how are you?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_05: I'm fine.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_05: And a week later, she'll tell me this is what was disturbing me.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_05: Like, well, I knew something was disturbing you.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_05: Of course.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_05: But that's just different people.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um and same with this, releasing because okay, so the book got published, and I'm all excited.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like, yay.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_05: Then I start, then it's getting closer to the release date, and I start thinking, like, oh no, like all my friends and like my peers and everybody who sees me as this confident, because I was, you know, being at homicide, you're kind of the pinnacle of investigations.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_05: So I would get a lot of questions of newer detectives would call or sergeants would call and say, hey, I have a junior detective, they're working this case.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_05: And I and I told them, ask Bocock, you know, or say, hey, go to um, I get called from my sergeant, hey, they're having a trouble getting this search warrant through a judge.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_05: Go to go and help them out.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_05: I was kind of like that confident guy who had the answers to everything.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't, but I just presented that.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're good at faking it until you make it kind of cheap.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_05: I always said, always wear a tie and have a folder in your hand and walk like you're like you're going somewhere.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_05: If you if you act like you know what you're doing, people will think that, right?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_05: Um so I started realizing like people are gonna get this book and they're gonna read it.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_05: And I talk a lot about how my frustrations and my feelings, and I talk a lot of every case goes through all the aspects of the investigation to include the next of kin notification.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_05: And some of them really hit hard.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_05: Telling somebody, waking somebody up in the middle of the night and sitting on a couch with them and then telling them, hey, yeah, you your your loved one is deceased, and you know, and they're like, What?
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_05: Right, you know, and you have to and I talk about the emotion, I talk about the emotions of the the good emotions, you know, well, we talked about the um uh post-conviction high and and and being like, yeah, I saw the case, but also just the frustration with the job, with the peers, with the politics of it, and then the sadness.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_05: I always said in homicide, you never have a good day where the witness lives.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_05: You know, if if if if somebody lives, it's not coming to me.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_05: It's a good day because you didn't get the case, it's going to somebody else.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_05: But if we're getting called out, somebody died.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_05: So it's not a situation where it's like, oh, are they gonna make it?
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_05: Well, dude, you're being called out.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_05: So they did it.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_05: So I put a lot of it in there, and I'm like, all these people that see me as like this, you know, deity of criminal investigations, like he's the he's the guy, he's the man that knows everything.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_05: There's a lot in there of me saying, like, this is how it affected me.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_05: And I did start seeing post-traumatic.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_05: I talk about how I was seeing um signs of PTSD in me, and I was crying more often.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_05: Um, like simple commercials were making me sad, and and I was seeing that out there.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like, everybody's gonna read that.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, my family's gonna know that, like my wife knew that, and my son knew that, and my mom.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_05: But I'm like, extended family is gonna know that, and strangers are gonna know that.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_05: And if I, you know, like it's very vulnerable.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_05: Uh it really made me start to like reconsider like, do should I have done this book?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, should I have put this out there?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_05: Because wow, like that's kind of a lot of my thoughts and my opinions that the whole world is gonna see.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_05: So your analogy, I totally get that.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_05: And it was very nerve-wracking to me.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_05: So the first couple people that read it, I was kind of like, tell me what you think.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_05: Be honest though.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_05: You know, be honest.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_05: And I was and it, and it was the same thing of, oh, it was great.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_05: I love every minute.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_05: Now tell me something you didn't like.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, because everybody's big to tell you it's good, especially your friends.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_05: Your friends will your friends will always tell you it's great.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_05: Tell me something you didn't like, you know, and then and then they would tell me like little things.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like, okay, I can work on that, I can work on that.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah, so it that that was very, very bonus.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_05: That was again some sleepless nights where I'm thinking, like, should I have done this?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_05: Like, is it worth it?
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_05: Is it really worth it?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: What sparked you to write the book?
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_05: I think the fact that there is so little education out there about true crime stuff.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_05: My wife loves watching true crime stuff.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, it's always, you know, Susie dies, and then they go knock on John's door and they arrest John.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, they missed a whole section in the middle.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_05: And in real life, a lot of that is report writing and boring stuff, but there is some good things in the middle there.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_05: So I really wanted to kind of fill in those gaps as best I could.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_05: Also, when I retired, uh, my first year in retirement, um, I was a subject matter expert on criminal justice textbooks.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so I was writing um PowerPoints for new textbooks that were coming out and also giving um like um scenarios for questions, um, like scenario questions for college students.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_05: So I was the cop that had done it in a group of PhDs and doctors in criminal justice.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_05: So I would I would say this is the real life scenario.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_05: And they would go, yeah, that's that's illegal.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like, well, that happens every day, bro.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_05: Like, like they're like like they're like, you know, like the scenario was, you know, like when can you do a stop on somebody?
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_05: It's two o'clock in the morning.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_05: Uh two people are on the street in a gnome drug area, and they do a little what they call hand-to-hand.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and then one of the guys goes in the corner and you see like a light of something.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_05: You do a simple stop, you stop, hey man, what are you doing?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_05: And he has drugs on him.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_05: And they're like, oh, that's illegal.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_05: Like, well, that that's a daily thing in law enforcement.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_05: That's called being a cop, you know.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_05: So there's a huge so I wanted to kind of for the true crime enthusiasts, I wanted them to see the difference between academia and reality, social media and reality, and the TV shows and reality and kind of fill in the gaps and everything.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_05: And not to say one is better than the other, but just to kind of say this is how a case really goes through.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_05: I also do call-outs throughout the book.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_05: So it's almost like a textbook where I talk about the difference between burglaries and robberies.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_05: Most people say, Oh, my house got robbed.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_05: If you're not in your home, that's called a burglary.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_05: But most people say robbed.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_05: You say a robbery to a cop, robbery is using force to take something from somebody.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_05: So that would mean somebody would have to show up at your house with a gun, and that's way more serious than a burglary.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_05: You know?
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_05: So I kind of go through those.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_05: I talk about forensic stuff.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, we talk about um um uh autopsies uh and the differences in those and how that helps us, how forensics helps police, video surveillance, and a lot of a lot of bias, a lot of how my bias sometimes affected cases, and a lot of um how my opinions or letting groupthink affected cases, where you have to really think out of the box and let evidence guide you.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_05: And that's kind of my thing is I want to let everybody know, like, hey, you can listen to everybody, listen to all the talking heads, listen to everybody else, but judge the facts for what they are and come to your own conclusion because we all get sucked up into that groupthink and our own biases and our own socialization that we think we know, like, oh, I know what's going on.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I could solve that.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_05: You don't, you have no idea.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_05: And just be honest enough to say I don't know everything, but these are some facts that I have.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_05: So that's kind of what led me to lead that and or or to write that because I thought that'd be something that'd be interesting.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and my second point is um being a homicide detective, I was amazed.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_05: There's no like homicide school that you go to.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_05: Even as like a detective, there's no like detective school that you go to.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_05: We have a quick little thing of things to expect because it's a lot of on-the-job training.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_05: You learn from the people that came before you.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_05: So I had mentors that when I went to homicide and I would get cases and I would go to them and say, Hey, I have never had this before.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_05: And sometimes they would go, I've never had it either.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_05: Like, well, I guess we're gonna learn together, aren't we?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_05: You know, yeah.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_05: There's a couple of cases where we had situations that nobody had ever had.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_05: I'm calling Phoenix PD and they're like, we've never even heard of that happening.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm like, so I kind of just did the best that I could and I'm it succeeded.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_05: So I kind of, if if you're from a small agency that you don't get a lot of this stuff, you don't get to learn a lot of it.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_05: So I it's also a book that a person who is an investigator or a police officer who wants to be a detective or a professional investigator can kind of learn from my mistakes.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_05: I put a lot of mistakes in there, a lot of things that I wish I would have done better, and other things that I had succeeded at.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_05: So you can learn from me, you know.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_05: So maybe someday you can go, oh, you know what?
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_05: I read this book and this detective did this and it totally didn't work out for him.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_05: So let's not do that.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_05: Or I did this and it worked for him.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let's give it a shot.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and how lovely that you're willing to put what didn't work in there.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's part of, you know, there's a similarity there in my books, my book as well, because it's like, hey, this is all the stuff that I did that was completely messed up.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that you can number one relate to it because we all just do the best that we can, but also maybe learn from it of okay, that didn't work.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: What else are we gonna do?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I want to ask you about death because I know we were talking about that before.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um tell me how you feel about death as someone who is like had that at your front door for a good chunk of your career.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you how do you see death?
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_05: Are you I was always so as a I never really thought about it until I became a police officer.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_05: Um and then as a patrol officer, I actually held um she was in a uh an accident and um she was in very, very bad physical shape.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_05: And she looked at me and I was first on scene.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_05: Um, let's just say there was like stuff everywhere.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_05: It was a very, very bad traffic accident.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_05: And I remember looking at her, and she looked at me and she's like, Am I gonna be okay?
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_05: And I grabbed her hand and I said, Yeah.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_05: And I was this kind of a smile, you're gonna be fine.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_05: And I literally watched her pupils dilate.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_05: I literally, and I always think I think about that almost daily, because I also, when I was training newer officers, I'd always tell them, that is your job as a police officer.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_05: If you go up there and start running in circles, and like, oh my God, oh my God.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta stay calm.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_05: You have to be calm and it and and remember that.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_05: And that was big for me because I just wanted, I just I was proud of myself for being strong enough to just be that because she was not gonna be okay.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, everybody knew anybody who I knew she was not gonna be okay, but she did not need to hear that.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_05: She needed to hear that you're gonna be fine.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_05: That was my first real experience of it, and that kind of was like, well, death is a part of life.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_05: And then in violent crimes, um, I didn't really deal with death too much because if they died went to homicide.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_05: Then, as homicide, I really started seeing kind of the human side of it, if you will.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_05: Where there were so many times where I would watch video of a homicide occurring, and just amazed, and like just thinking, this person is getting ready to die, and they have no idea.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_05: Like they have no idea that in 30 seconds they're not here anymore, someone is going to shoot them, and it's on video, and then I'm gonna get involved in their life, and this is all gonna happen, and it's gonna ruin their lives.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_05: And I've seen the family and all that.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_05: So it really started giving me a almost a better sense of my mortality.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_05: Um, to where I knew that I was gonna do 20 years and then be out because I could take my pension and I wanted to do other things, but also live your life where don't live for a job or live for anything because you just don't know.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_05: And you may not be murdered, right, but a meteor could hit us.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're not guaranteed any memory.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_05: You could have a heart attack.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_05: I've seen, I've had, and we didn't just do homicides, we also did suspicious deaths.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_05: So many a times where people just die, and then you go to the autopsy and they take you apart and they go, Oh, they've had an em they've had an embolism in their brain um forever.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_05: Or, oh, they've had a defect in their heart that you don't know until you take the heart out.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_05: So, and you're like, oh my God, like you just don't know.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_05: You have no idea.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_05: So I've really come to terms where it's like, I don't want to die, okay, but I'm prepared because I realized it could happen anytime.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_05: And live your life every day.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_05: Live your life like you're gonna die tomorrow.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_05: If you want to do something, do it.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_05: And I always tell my son, don't go crazy, but if something scares you and you want to do it, do it because you just never know.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_05: You just never know.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're supposed to do things that are uncomfortable and that scare us every single day.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I tell people, keep death close.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say that, I mean um you're not guaranteed any number.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone knows that because we watch as people around us, or especially in your line of work, right?
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it doesn't discriminate.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: You could be a 16-year-old girl or 80-year-old man, you don't know when your last day is.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: Keep death close, live accordingly, right?
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just get into this hamster wheel of mediocre life.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do the things that scare you, chase your highest excitement.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's that's where all of that comes in.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_05: And don't live for the future.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_05: No.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_05: I've seen so many police officers say, like, oh, when I retire, yeah, you know, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_05: And then they get physically ill because it's a stressful job.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_05: And they get physically ill and then they retire, and so many of them are in such bad physical condition that they can't do what they want, but that they want to do in retirement.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_05: Don't do that.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_05: Live for the now.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_05: Don't say, well, you know what, I'm just gonna work my butt off, and then in 40 years from now, I'll start working out and take care of myself.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I don't know.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_05: Because you're not guaranteed that.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you're not guaranteed that.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is there still a like the stigma in in law enforcement as far as like mental health is concerned?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: When you talk about like getting some PTSD and stuff, is that something where, let me back up a second.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: I had a firefighter that came on, and it was a very vulnerable thing for him to discuss the PTSD and the stuff that he saw.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because same thing, when you look at someone as they're taking their last breath, as you're watching the, you know, the life leave somebody, as you're come, you know, pulling up to accidents that body parts are everywhere.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's not a normal thing.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: And also, you guys are put on this pedestal of like just be tough, be strong, keep it together.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like you've seen movement in that in the police force or in your industry where okay, that people are more open about talking about that, people are more open about getting help and really working on any of that so that they're not carrying that PTSD home?
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you feel like there's been movement on that or not really?
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yes and no.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I am going to say, but from my experience with Mesa Police Department, the management or the staff, they're trying.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_05: Even when I was there, and I've been retired now for four years, they're legitimately trying.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_05: They are trying to get people.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_05: But you put a cop in front of a psychologist and say, you will go to a psychologist, you sit into them and you talk.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't have that.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_05: They're doing that now.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't have that option.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_05: I'm open though.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_05: But I talked to my peers about it, right?
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_05: I'd be like, Yeah, I cried last night.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you know, I saw this commercial, it made me cry.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_05: And that helped me, right?
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_05: Um, if you sat me down, I would be like, Yeah, this is what makes me sad.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_05: Last week I saw a baby die.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_05: Last week I saw this, last week I saw this.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: But you're not the normal dude in that situation.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_05: A majority of cops, even the ones that I worked with, I watched them hide it.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_05: I physically watched them hide it, and I would have to kind of be like, and you don't want to say, hey, we had one, and it was a baby death, and I'll never forget this.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_05: It was a baby death, and um the mom was just notified, and she just started just losing it.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_05: And the detective got his notebook and just threw it across the room.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_05: The hot the and he was like, I am so sick of just dealing with this.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_05: And you want to say, hey, let's talk about it, but he was an older guy, old school, old school cop, and it's like, hey, we're not gonna talk about it.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_05: Like, I was kind of like, hey, Sarge, I'm gonna take him for coffee.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_05: And we sat and had coffee and talked baseball.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_05: Because he's me, I would have talked about it.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, he that was not him.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_05: So I think yes and no, a major there's some cops that are talkers, and there's some just like regular people who are not.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_05: So there's a lot of cops that just bottle it up, they push it way down.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_05: But that's how they were raised.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and you just drink a lot of alcohol and it'll go away.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that's that that's how it was, that's how we were all raised.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you know, rub dirt on it.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be a pussy.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, pick your numb of choice, push your emotions down, numb on top of it.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's the right way.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I do this show.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: Gentlemen, it's not the right way.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to bleed in the dark.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're not meant to carry that emotional weight.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to hear that the police department is doing something about it.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's not actually getting through because people aren't going to go speak to a therapist anyways, there's your problem.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_05: Well, and now it's banded from my from talking to my old unit um and and it's now mandatory.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_05: But you can't make somebody talk.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_05: So I imagine there's some dudes that probably go in there and play on their phone the whole time.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_05: So you're like, screw that, I'm not talking to anybody.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_05: I'm I'm hardcore.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_05: It eats you up.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, if anybody wants any kind of lesson in life as a as a 20-year police officer, it will eat you alive.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_05: It will absolutely eat you alive.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's what causes disease, that's what causes cancer.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: I truly believe that.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we're not meant to carry that all around.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I realize that these men have um I I mean, I I say daddy issues because that's what daddy issues are, right?
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is is your dad raised you to be tough and to and to rub dirt on it and all of those things.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't know better or they wouldn't have raised you that way.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I even watch as men now are doing the same thing to their young kids because we're just it's just patterns.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're just passing down patterns.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: Gentlemen, that's not the right way to do it, just so everyone knows.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're not trying to rub dirt on it and not be pussies and don't cry about it.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to feel emotions.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: They're supposed to be your compass.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_05: And one quick correction Yeah, it's not just the men.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_05: Female police officers, they don't want to show their emotion because an emotion is weakness.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_05: 100%.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_05: So they they're almost even worse.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_05: But they're like, F it.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_05: I could do anything.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_05: F that guy, I can do it.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_05: I'm any of that kind of person.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it eats them up.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_05: So it's it's not just a male-female thing, it's a profession thing.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_05: For fire department paramedics.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: I would agree with you.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, men, women, all of the things.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: Justin, thank you so much for coming and spending time.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Justin's uh book is out.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Excuse Me, On Call.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you can get it on assuming Amazon or Okay, perfect.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: So check that out.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's our time for today.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: So if something hits stirred or lit a fire under you and you've got thoughts, questions, or a story you're ready to share, slide into our DMs or email us at ladies at let's get naked podcast.com.
• 1:01:15
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• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: Follow, share, rate, review, and do all the things.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: We will catch you next time.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's a wrap.