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485 - WP Builds hijack - how show.fm simplifies podcasting for WordPress creators · WP Builds

• 0:00
  Dan Maby: I don't know if you can hear it, we've got an ice cream truck right out the front.
• 0:03
  Marc Benzakein: I want ice cream right now, and I don't think you should pause it. I think we should just get ice cream.
• 0:10
  Dan Maby: Welcome to the WP Builds podcast, bringing you the latest news, interviews and fun for the WordPress community.
• 0:21
  Dan Maby: Now, welcome your host, Nathan Wrigley.
• 0:25
  Marc Benzakein: Uh, guess what? I'm taking over the show. My name is Mark Benzikane, and I am with Maine WP, and I am taking over the show today to talk about some podcasting. Podcasting is a huge industry, and it's still growing. One of the reasons is that creating a podcast has become easier than ever. According to Search Engine Land, estimates put the worldwide podcast audience at about 584 million listeners in 2025.
• 0:56
  Marc Benzakein: Increasing to more than 619 million in 2026, with continued growth expecting beyond that. But there's another statistic that may be even more interesting. Podcast index tracks roughly 4.7 million podcast feeds, while only a fraction of those are still actively publishing. And that points to the real challenge. Starting a podcast may be easier than ever, but keeping one running consistently is a different story.
• 1:23
  Marc Benzakein: Recording the conversation is often the easy part. The real workload comes from everything around it. Scheduling, guest communication, research, show notes, publishing, promotion, analytics, and all the other moving pieces that come with producing a show. That's the problem Nathan Wrigley and Dan Mabee are addressing with show.fm, which they describe as a pod ops platform. Software designed to bring the operational side of podcasting together in one place and automate as much of the repetitive work as possible.
• 1:55
  Marc Benzakein: And they come to the project with a ton of relevant experience. Nathan Wrigley has been podcasting for years and has produced, edited, and published somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,200 episodes. Jeez. Along the way, he's had plenty of first-hand experience with both the enjoyable parts of producing a show and all the repetitive work that happens behind the scenes. Dan Mabee brings the technical side to the equation, with roughly two decades of experience in software development, product development, and technical architecture.
• 2:28
  Marc Benzakein: Together, they've taken that combination of real-world podcasting experience and software expertise and used it to build Show FM. And for today's episode, I get to turn the tables a little bit. I've spent plenty of time on the other side of the microphone with Nathan asking the questions. Today, I've taken over this show, and we're going to spend some time talking with Nathan and Dan about Show FM and what they're building to make podcast production easier to manage.
• 2:56
  Marc Benzakein: So, Nathan and Dan, welcome to my show. Thanks for joining me.
• 3:00
  Nathan Wrigley: That was so good. You actually wrote some stuff down. I never do that. And it sounded like I read it almost, didn't it? The nice thing about this is that it was your idea to do this as well, which I'm really grateful of because I got an email from you, I guess, and you said, how about this as an idea? And I was like, yeah, that's such a great idea. So I'm very grateful. Thank you, Mike. Oh, my goodness. The BS is strong with this guy. This was not my idea. This was not my idea.
• 3:31
  Nathan Wrigley: No. In fact, the way that I heard it was that you wanted the best interviewer possible. Oh, that's it. I remember now. And they weren't available. So we got you. Bottom collar. But I'm bummed. Okay. So first of all, I... In all honesty, I really appreciate that you came to me and asked me to do this. This was not my idea. This was, I think you actually mentioned that it was Kyle from the Admin Bars.
• 4:00
  Nathan Wrigley: Oh, yeah. Okay. Now the mists are clearing. I think it was Kyle. Yeah, right. So I appreciate that you thought of me and I appreciate that you're having me do this. This is a little bit of a departure for me as well. So we're all going to have some fun here and let's just get going. First of all, before we even get into the the actual software that you've created, I would like to know a little bit about the history of you and Dan because I think most people want to know a little bit about the history of the people behind the product and, you know, whether or not they are actually connected.
• 4:35
  Marc Benzakein: I know that you guys have been together for a long time, but I'm kind of curious what the history is. Did you guys like, you know, steal someone's cab and or end up in the same cab together? It sounds like it sounds like there are wedding vows in here. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's not what happened. Yeah, so do you want to take that, Dan? That means memory. That means going back in time.
• 4:57
  Dan Maby: I do have a very vivid memory of you and I in a car park many, many years ago. Talking about podcasting, talking about the WordPress space, talking about getting content online and what does that mean. I think I'd run a meetup that night. It was an Ipswitch. That's right, yes. And you came down, joined us. I think that was really the start of our conversations around how do we work together on it. Yeah. Many years ago, wasn't it? That was right. You'd run the WordPress meetup in Ipswitch.
• 5:25
  Nathan Wrigley: I'd come along because I was down seeing my in-laws. Yeah. I guess we must have been in communication prior to that online through Big Orange Heart and things like that. Yeah, and this predates that, doesn't it? Oh, does it? Good grief. Yes. How many years ago was this, do you think? We're back into, oh, I don't know, 2016? 17, 16, something. Yeah, it'd be something like that.
• 5:49
  Nathan Wrigley: Certainly, I mean, in the region of about 10 years ago. And I'd already started doing a podcast, which is this one, WP Builds, which I kind of fell into. Didn't intend to do it. It just sort of serendipitously happened because I was hanging out with another guy called David Wormsley, who I still do a podcast with, but not in the WordPress space. Yeah, I guess it had kind of taken off a little bit. And I obviously, you know, I was keen to try different things out and you were keen to do a podcast or at least have somebody do a podcast, which then I did do for your what was WP and up, which then became big orange.
• 6:25
  Dan Maby: The Press Forward podcast, yes. That's right. Oh, no, I'm not wearing the t-shirt. Dan and I very often, so Dan and I had loads of t-shirts made.
• 6:37
  Marc Benzakein: This is audio only. You could have said you were wearing a t-shirt. Yeah, but I'm an honest chap. And we had loads of t-shirts made for the Press Forward podcast. And Dan and I are basically the only people who took them. So we've got about 20 each. So we're slowly going through them with our decorating and very often we'll get on the call and we're both wearing the same old fashioned Press Forward podcast t-shirt anyway. As a side note, and we're not going to get derailed too much, but do you remember the old days when, like, WordCamps were all about the t-shirts and now nobody wants the t-shirts?
• 7:13
  Nathan Wrigley: No, no. I go and don't take any swag. But yeah, so that was the whole thing. We got connected and then we didn't form an alliance. I think it was probably six months later or something. Dan suggested I do the Press Forward podcast for WP and Up, which then became Big Orange Charm. We did that for a while. Well, I carried on doing my WP Builds podcast and then I can't even remember how, but Dan and I kept lines of communication open and then we ended up talking about, do you remember why, how did we end up on wanting to build a podcast platform?
• 7:46
  Dan Maby: I don't remember how we got to that point, but I can certainly remember talking about your skill set, my skill set, what does that look like? Is there something there to support one another through the creation of a thing? And that thing has evolved multiple times before you got to this stage. So when I began podcasting, it became obvious really quickly that just like any industry you're in, as soon as you've been doing it for a little while, you figure out there's pain points all over the place.
• 8:13
  Nathan Wrigley: I mean, genuinely, I can't imagine anybody who's had a job for more than a few weeks who hasn't thought that could be better or that could be better. You just do. And with podcasting, that's what I came up with. I came up with a bunch of things which I thought this could be done better, but I couldn't build that platform. I was too busy doing other things, and also I genuinely not technically capable enough. So I had somebody build a version of what was at the time called Podcaster Plus, and that was going until just a few weeks ago, really.
• 8:42
  Nathan Wrigley: It was just a very slimmed down platform. You've been through it, Mark, for this show and various other things. But that was the beginning of it. I had an idea, had a platform built, didn't have the capacity to get it over the line. And then Dan and I at some point sat down and thought, actually, that's not a bad business idea. Hmm. Let's take it and run with it what happens with dan is he takes it and he decides that it's going to be infinitely more capable and infinitely more complicated and that's what we've got now with show .fm complicated for us not for the end user yeah well said yeah and and i did not realize that podcaster plus was your brainchild yeah that's pretty fascinating actually yeah i mean it really was just born out of copying and pasting so one of the things that
• 9:30
  Nathan Wrigley: for podcasting if you do it like me and a really large proportion of podcasters do interviews right it's just a really great format because you don't need to write a script or anything like that you can have people on and if they're interesting enough the audience are fascinated by that right but what happens is you've got to do the whole like find them. They've got to know who you are to find you credible you've got to then somehow get them in the calendar at the same time as you're available in the calendar and then share show notes and then get the thing published and recorded and then after that inform them that their podcast episode has gone live and yada yada there's just a thousand different things and it was literally a copy and paste exercise and it adds up to hours of utter drudge work.
• 10:15
  Nathan Wrigley: There's just no purpose to it apart from the fact that you've got to get there and you know if you could click a button and make it all just happen that's what show.fm does basically takes that complicated thing and hopefully makes it a lot easier with automated stuff here there and everywhere. Looking at show.fm I'm looking at your your website right now and it has like a boatload of features that I would think would be very useful to any podcaster.
• 10:44
  Marc Benzakein: You've got your booking links guest network. Let's talk about the guest network a little bit. Tell me a bit because that seems like it could be very powerful if used properly. Yes absolutely. So Nathan and I spent probably. Yeah. I'm going to say, for the last two years, really focused on planning prior to the build even starting. So there is a lot of features, a lot of functionality in there, and it's all come out of looking at workflows, looking at how Nathan works, looking at how can we ensure that you create those smoother workflows for the end users.
• 11:14
  Dan Maby: So it's been way more time focused on the planning than actually on the build itself. And one of the big pieces that kept coming out of the conversations we were talking around was guests and guest management, and how do you enable podcasters to be able to connect with new guests. And that's really where the guest network was born. It's an opportunity for anybody that is invited onto a podcast to create a free guest profile. They sit in that guest network then, and other...
• 11:42
  Dan Maby: Podcasters that have accounts across show.fm can then look at that guest network. There's then options to invite people to be a guest on your show. So it's really about connecting people. It's really the major focus for us in the guest network. I guess it's a little bit like a mini LinkedIn or something like that. One of the curious things that happened to me after a period of time, desperately trying to find people to be on my podcast and finding that a real struggle because nobody had heard of my podcast or heard of me.
• 12:14
  Nathan Wrigley: You write a lot of email and most of it's ignored. And, you know, so that's the thing. And you keep going, you get your way through that. And then eventually, at some point, people in your niche know who you are a little bit. But also what then happened, the flip side of that is after a few years and my name in the WordPress space had become a little bit more familiar, the opposite happened. People started to come to me saying, can I be on your podcast? And so then I was in this odd situation of, well, actually.
• 12:43
  Nathan Wrigley: No, because you you're really not talking about WordPress. You're talking about something else. But somehow my name has ended up on an email list. So you're thinking that you can come on my podcast. But you, on the other hand, wow, that's brilliant. Yes, I really want to talk to you. And so it's this process of like this. Basically, we built this double fronted kind of marketplace where people who have podcasts who want to explore guests, they don't now hopefully have to go out and find a million email addresses and download some dodgy lists from somewhere and pommel it. They can find people in the platform who've said, I talk about WordPress. I talk about car maintenance. I talk about knitting, whatever it may be.
• 13:23
  Nathan Wrigley: And you go search for them. If you find their profile credible, you can invite them on. And the flip side, if somebody that wants to be on a podcast joins our platform, they can find people who have podcasts in their niche. And it turns out that in the years you know in the 2020s getting on podcasts for business reasons became really powerful you know you could really get into the marketplace that you were trying to be discovered in just by being on a handful of podcasts a really quick way to short circuit the discoverability of your product or service or whatever it may be.
• 13:59
  Dan Maby: And we introduced options that allow hosts to recommend guests as well so you'll see little flags coming up saying your guest has been invited back it's a marker that individual they're providing genuine content providing genuine quality content when they come and join you as a guest so there's both sides to this that we want to make sure that the guest and the host are equally happy. Yeah. And I have a suggestion for you. You could actually have like a bribery button to just like, you know, bribe you to let them on the show. So yeah, maybe we could take a cut as a platform. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We're not doing the bribery button. I mean, Nathan, you did make me bribe you to be able to.
• 14:46
  Nathan Wrigley: Well, that's true. First time, but the checks in the mail, it's still in the mail. It's been four years. I know. I don't know where it went. I have no idea. It was so much money as well. Yeah. We've created this option. You can have endorsements across the platform as well. It's all within the control of the end user. So yeah, we didn't want to put anything in there that creates that sort of really uncomfortable. I've got a one star review, for example, from a from a podcast host.
• 15:11
  Nathan Wrigley: So we we hide the ratings until you have X amount of ratings from different podcasts, different hosts. Yeah. And then it becomes anonymized. So there is that ability to rate your guests. Oh but seriously I know it sounds a bit glib some people are really good guests that I mean it's little things like they show up on time they don't ghost you they don't communicate with you five minutes before the interview to say I'm sorry I forgot I can't come and so those little things you can commend them for like you know they're punctual they're reliable and our platform will allow you to do that but also some people are just really great at expressing their thoughts you know they're brilliant raconteurs.
• 15:55
  Nathan Wrigley: They can talk and they're really credible and they will draw an audience towards your podcast and so it's nice to have a bit quid pro quo there to be able to sort of say thank you by way of endorsement after they've been on the show and say look they are a five star guest they're brilliant at talking they showed up on time you know they were civil they were polite they did everything that you would wish to do. Let's give them a load of kudos on the other hand this person they never showed up well we won't give them kudos and we don't encourage in fact we don't really even brace to the surface negative commentary it's the absence of good comments and good commentary that will be the indicator that it wasn't you know it didn't work out for that particular person.
• 16:41
  Marc Benzakein: Well I think that that's really important because I can tell you as a guest who has been on multiple shows myself I never really get any feedback so I don't know if what I'm saying is valued or wanted or needed or anything fortunately I'm arrogant enough to think that it is I can tell you it's disappointing Mark. I know my stats are disappointing fortunately I go to the people who love me all one of them you did a great job show but you did a great job yeah he's been back on the show many many many times that's that tells you all you need to know yeah anyway so going down through this list which by the way I mean I don't know that we have enough time to go through the whole list the other day Nathan you were showing me
• 17:26
  Marc Benzakein: you I know it seems like I'm just reading right down the list, but I'm not. The other day you showed me something really, really cool, which was the next thing on the list, which is the guest research AI thing. Explain that to me. It kind of does the work for the guests, right? Yeah. Dan, do you want to take that or shall I? Up to you. I can do. Yeah, if you want to. Yeah. The guest researcher was, again, really born out of conversations with Nathan. And Nathan, you can jump into a bit more about the human side of it, if you like.
• 17:55
  Dan Maby: What we're trying to do here with the platform is the use of a very thin layer of AI and in a way that is genuinely beneficial. We're not interested in requiring you to run your entire show through a chat interface. That's not what we're trying to accomplish here. We want to find ways that the AI can be a tool that actually supports that process of creating a podcast. And one of those ways is exactly this, the guest booking process.
• 18:23
  Dan Maby: Given you an option to turn on AI research now what that does is it gives you several questions that you can toggle on or off you can make required or make them optional it's all completely up to you as a host as a how to manage it what happens is the guest will book on via your booking link they can answer those questions and then our AI will actually go and research based on the information that that's received from the guest. We make sure that it is limited to publicly available information it's only researching based on the stuff that the guest has given you essentially so it then comes back with a whole bunch of information about the topic there's a subject matter that the guest wants to talk about along with some suggested questions so some icebreakers and some various topics to get into.
• 19:09
  Nathan Wrigley: I think Nathan that's probably It for the technical side but yeah human side yeah so okay so when you watch a TV interviewer you may think that that person is just an incredible minefield of knowledge no they're not they've got a team of people behind them doing research on that guest if somebody's in front of them somebody else has done a load of work to discover okay what would be sensible questions to ask that person I mean the conversation can go off in any direction but let's write down a question.
• 19:42
  Nathan Wrigley: 10 things on a piece of paper so that David Letterman or whoever it may be can hold them so that he's got things to say well that's basically what's happening here because the guests will come they'll go into your booking form fill out the questions if they provide answers in the AI the AI fields which they do not have to do it depends how you set up the form the AI will go off in the background and do some research and then it will return to you things like that and and what's really nice about that is that then you are prepared before Before the show actually starts you know you've got things that you probably wouldn't have thought of because you probably don't have time to go off and do that research so it's sort of short circus it now there's no prescription there you don't have to read them out but it might just be that you could take some intuition and think oh that's a curious direction I wouldn't have thought of that I'll make sure to ask something in that area and then the nice thing as well is that the guest is sort of steered by your booking form into revealing things that they want.
• 20:42
  Nathan Wrigley: They may be I don't know maybe they're shy they don't really have a lot of confidence in what they want to talk about that has happened to me a lot you know some of the best guests that I've had on have been incredibly shy kind of fairly unwilling to put things in the booking form and so I've teased it out of them but this process allows you to not do that all I can say is it is gold it is really gold and it drops into the show notes which get created.
• 21:10
  Nathan Wrigley: Automatically, so that when you both arrive at the interview stage, you've both got access to the show notes, you can see all of this research and the interview can carry on. It's really good. It's really powerful. And so the guest then has the ability to look at the show notes and say, this is not accurate to correct it, which does bring up a question. I imagine that until you get like really good sample size, you're not going to know for sure. But how do you prevent things like AI hallucinations and confusion with...
• 21:43
  Marc Benzakein: I know that you mentioned that the guest goes in and kind of puts a little bit about themselves, which I'm sure is one way to prevent the fiction. But how do you prevent that entirely? I think the honest answer is you can't. However, we do put in several guardrails to support that process, first of which is the URL that the person provides. So they can provide, if you're answering the AI questions, you can provide up to three individual URLs. The research is targeted to those sources.
• 22:14
  Dan Maby: It will come back with cited information. So it tells you where it's gathered this information from. And it's also honest about it. So it will also come back and tell you, I don't have this information. So it depends on what's been given as to how much it can provide back to you. We've tried to make it in a way that it is constrained to the information that's being given by the guest. And obviously it's age old adage, you know, garbage in, garbage out. You get a good quality response, then you're going to get a good quality output.
• 22:42
  Nathan Wrigley: Right. I think it's just a starting point as well. Like, I don't actually think I would ever read any of those questions. I would just read through them, you know, like half an hour before the interview started, take some intuitions from it, and then write out my own questions. But what's curious is it does send you off in interesting directions. You know, it might have discovered something in their past, which is directly related to where they are now. But you would perhaps not have had the time to go and explore in that way. And yeah, and it's bound to the links that they provide. So there's a bit of trust there, you know, obviously.
• 23:12
  Nathan Wrigley: to see if they provide links, which they
• 23:19
  Marc Benzakein: We're going to fall foul of that, but that's how it goes. It's a nice to have. It's not essential. If you're a great interviewer with a panel of people behind you, you wouldn't need it. But for most people, I think it's just a useful little crutch. No, I think it's probably a little bit more than a little useful. I think it would be very useful and very cool. I just think that it's kind of up to the guests to make sure that there's no fiction there.
• 23:48
  Marc Benzakein: But also, I have found that with AI, when you request that at site sources, it tends to also be fairly accurate. I've found far less hallucination occurrences when that happens. The nice thing about all this is, as well, is that I think probably everything that we're going to talk about today, you could do elsewhere. You know, you could go and do that stuff elsewhere. The best bit here is we've wrapped it all up in this one service.
• 24:14
  Nathan Wrigley: So you don't have to think. You send them a booking link. They fill out the booking link. That's obviously got your calendars and they'll link it with their calendars and say yes I can do that. That will then automatically do the guest research. Automatically create the show notes. Automatically create the link so that you can all join the show at the right moment. It's all kind of just built in and then a whole load of other things that we haven't got to yet. And it's just inside this one entity. So you're in this one platform. Everything happens and you don't have to think so much.
• 24:41
  Dan Maby: Right, yeah. I think this is where these conversations about how do you allow the human through this process. Where's the human side to it. I think in this period that we're in at the moment where it's AI, AI, AI, AI, everywhere. Look, that's not what we're looking to achieve here. Use it as a tool. And how do you ensure that the guest is treated like a human, the host is treated like a human. We're not just expecting them to go through and fill in these checkboxes.
• 25:09
  Dan Maby: We want to make sure that the end result is actually a good quality podcast, an interesting podcast. Every time we talk about AI, we always come to... The same conclusion where we say you still need human oversight no matter what you need human oversight but look at how much time it can save yeah this is an amazing workflow product really that automates so much I am not a podcaster per se although I have some ideas like everybody else and I've gotten some things going and then I discover the same kind of hangups that you're driving.
• 25:48
  Marc Benzakein: I'm addressing here which is the post work and everything that goes on or the pre work all the work yeah on around the podcast to put it out it's not just I mean when you write down to it it's not just you record it and then if you're a certain type or you edit it right but we'll just say record it you edit it that's oversimplification you're talking about 20 other things that go on at least produce a podcast which is why when I brought up that.
• 26:16
  Marc Benzakein: Nathan you've done 1200 podcasts that just blows my mind because or episodes I should say.
• 26:21
  Nathan Wrigley: So I go to the gym and basically every year in January the gym gets filled up with people you know you look around the gym there's just thousands of people that you've never seen before and then about two weeks into January you go back to the gym there's nobody there right they've all kind of discovered oh I'm gonna get fit new year's resolution I'm gonna get fit I'm gonna make myself really a different character two weeks later gone that's what happens in the podcasting space the metric is three episodes people are really excited they love the idea of doing it the medium is brilliant you speak into a mic the world potentially can hear your voice three episodes in they discover the stuff that's required and they give up don't get past the third episode and that's the audience that we're trying to help through because if you started you probably did want to get through it but you suddenly realized oh I have to do all these other things
• 27:14
  Marc Benzakein: Well, I can tell you, I, for one, have a podcast that I've literally got five episodes in the can. Well, you did more than most. Yeah, which is typical. You know, I always do more than most. But the problem is, is finding the time because I have a real job and all these other things to actually get it out there. And then if you have any pride in what you're producing, you don't want it to be just this raw thing that you just throw out there because you know that people aren't going to listen to you going, um, um, um, you know, 5,000 times.
• 27:49
  Marc Benzakein: So this is very cool. And then the next thing is I am kind of going through this whole list here. I'm not intending to. I'm trying to pick the highlights, but every single thing I'm looking, I'm not kidding when I say every single thing I look at that this thing does under features is a highlight. It really is amazing to me. The distribution portion of it okay so I literally am just like because that's the other thing is like well I know how to upload on to YouTube but what about all the other thing what about you know Apple and and all the other platforms or the other podcast hosts or whatever how do you get that out there and talk about how your distribution works because I thought that was pretty cool to I think just take a little step back here what's been really interesting for me is the production of content here and the ability to get your content online.
• 28:36
  Dan Maby: You know that's been a passion of mine for many years in the WordPress space you know it's the ability to get your written content online here we're talking about obviously audio and as you mentioned it's a really powerful thing to be able to get online to get your voice out there distribution is absolutely key that you've got to be able to get that out to the various podcast players and let's be honest it can be a bit of a minefield it's a lot of options a lot of ways of doing it interesting to do this job we've listed 20 podcast players within our distribution settings that enable you to send
• 29:09
  Dan Maby: So if you've spent all that time producing a fantastic episode and you want to get it online, you obviously want people to be listening to it. And people are listening through a whole multitude of podcast players. Starting with the big ones, you've got the likes of Apple, Spotify, YouTube, etc. And then you're moving down to your Pocket Cast. So many options around how you consume that. And that's the beauty of podcasting because it all hinges on the RSS feed. There's nice open technology.
• 29:35
  Dan Maby: Using our platform to distribute, you can go through every individual player. So if you start with Apple, for example, it will give you guided steps. It will tell you where you need to go. It will give you, you know, explain the process. We actually focus on privacy through this. So we don't put your email address, for example, into the RSS feed, which many podcast hosts do these days, unfortunately. So you've got various options and ways to get you from the point of publishing to the point of distributing through show.fm.
• 30:02
  Nathan Wrigley: It's such a weird system. Like, I don't suppose anybody who isn't a podcaster has ever given this much thought. But basically, what you do as a podcaster is you create a bunch of audio files. So you create episode one, episode two, episode three, and it's audio. I mean, it could be video increasingly, but it's audio. And then you put them in a host, and then that host then creates an RSS feed. And the RSS feed is like XML. It's just text with a bunch of enclosures. So it's got description tag, start description, end description, image, start image, end image. And it does that for each episode.
• 30:36
  Nathan Wrigley: However, when you go and turn on the telly, and you want to watch your favorite TV program, you go to the BBC, because you know, that's where it is. And you go to ITV, or you go to I don't know what the American networks are called, but you go to that network, because you know, that's where that programming is. Podcasting is nothing like that, right? Your content can be consumed by any app, which is an RSS podcast reader. So on your phone, you could have like 15 different apps that all consume your content. And so there's this weird dance that you have to do one time, right at the beginning when you set up your podcast to tell all the podcast player apps.
• 31:21
  Nathan Wrigley: This is where my content is. So that when somebody searches for it on Pocket Casts or Apple or Spotify or YouTube Music, they know. And you have to do it once and it's dead weird. But once you've done it, it's done. It takes about an hour, but we make it drop dead simple because you click Spotify. We open up a little modal and it says, do this, do this, do this, do this, do this. You're done.
• 31:52
  Nathan Wrigley: Nobody else does that because they figure you've got to go and figure it out for yourself. And so we've really bent over backwards, I think, to make it as easy as possible. That was a bit of a weird, went off in a bit of a random direction there, but it is a strange thing about podcasts and it's the best thing about it as well because it's open and because you control the audio, the players have to find you and so it's your job.
• 32:18
  Marc Benzakein: It's your job to go and tell them where your content is. And from that moment on, they know forever more. Yeah. There's a podcast that I listen to. It's a sports podcast. It's an ESPN sports podcast. Right. And for six months, they were complaining about the fact that they could not get it. On the spotify they wow yeah they were they were having struggles with spotify i'm like man if espn is having a problem getting it on on spotify then where's the hope that i can but you know obviously they didn't have show fm to tell them how to do it well spotify is a weird one because it's a walled garden so a bit like apple podcast is a bit of a walled garden as well a few other players like pocket casts and things like that much more open but spotify you have to create an account you have to have a spotify account.
• 33:03
  Nathan Wrigley: and then you tell them what your rss feed is many of the other platforms you don't need to do that you just you just turn up tell them what your rss feed is and they just run from there um so yeah it's curious there's all these different things that you've got to do and once you've done it once it's done which is nice but it takes i don't know an hour or so i want to discover i'm going to cover these two things kind of as one because it's they're both kind of in my mind and you can correct me if i'm wrong they kind of fall under this idea of white labeling which is the embedded so
• 33:37
  Dan Maby: So if you'd have done this interview yesterday I'd have had a whole different set of answers. I woke up this morning and I woke up this morning and Dan about half an hour before we got on this show completely upended that. So go on over to you Dan. This is Dan all over. Built something last night which made it way better. So we have our public sites as you mentioned. If you head over to for example the.show.fm you'll find our show.fm podcast. Public website. It's crawlable by search engines. You can control how it looks and feels etc. We've also got embeddable players. So if you're running a WordPress site or Next.js whatever you can go and embed your player over there. Again fully controllable. We've got various designs various layouts etc.
• 34:28
  Dan Maby: But we've been talking about that distribution piece and not just distribution to players but also distribution to your own website. How do you own that content? How do you make sure that you're not ending up in a walled garden that you cannot get yourself out of? That's where I've lived in the WordPress space for so long. It's something I'm truly passionate about. So we spoke and we planned for quite some time what this looks like. We've developed a WordPress plugin.
• 34:55
  Dan Maby: So the WordPress plugin now ties in directly to your account. If you have an account, you don't actually have to. You can use the player independently. But it allows you to then render your content on your WordPress site. There's actually an NPM package so if you want to go off and run it elsewhere, it's all web components. So you can actually run it on any site, not just WordPress. But the WordPress plugin does a few interesting things in that you can actually...
• 35:23
  Dan Maby: Choose when you're publishing your podcast episode from within show.fm to also have it publish an episode on your WordPress site as well if you've connected the two together and it will also allow you to migrate from your old podcast players so if you've got existing players on your site really we want to support that whole journey of migrating from one host to another because we know it can be painful and that includes obviously the ability to migrate your audio on your website as well.
• 35:52
  Nathan Wrigley: It's it's so good like it's genuinely really good it's really really good it's gonna be um i think i think a lot of the intuition came from me trying to figure out how to uh i don't mean me with the idea but the problem that i have is that i've got you know i don't know nine eight hundred and fifty or something episodes on WP Builds and they're all rendering legacy players and so there's this whole thing of i'd have to go into eight hundred and fifty posts update and so dan overnight has made that go away it's just now i click a few buttons and they all get i can see why you i can see why you
• 36:37
  Nathan Wrigley: you Because, you know, each post contains probably an embedded player somewhere and we can swap those out for hours in a heartbeat, which is great. That's that's very cool. So this this brings up a question which has to do with how you two work together. Does it tend to be something where Nathan's ready to throw his computer out the window and he tells you about it and then you come up with a solution, Dan?
• 37:03
  Marc Benzakein: How does that whole dynamic work with you deciding what the next thing is, the next big thing that you're going to add to show.fm? OK, well, I'm going to take this question because this is honestly this is what happens. We meet on a Tuesday. We have a big long meeting. We talk about all the things that we want to do. And then I do nothing. And then Dan does absolutely masses.
• 37:29
  Nathan Wrigley: And I come and then we come back a few days later and I genuinely this is what happens. Dan joins the call and says, do you want to have a look at what I've done? And I go, yeah, all right. And then I go, oh, that's so good. And then he'll do something else. Oh, that's such a good idea. That's genuinely what happened. And he's going to deny it, but that is what happens. So it's a two hour meeting with you complaining for an hour and a half.
• 37:55
  Marc Benzakein: More or less. Pretty much. And then 30 minutes of him saying, come back next Tuesday. It's so great. It's such a great setup. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I see how it works. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's taking that information and distilling it down into something useful. Yeah. Yeah. That can be the challenge. Trying to figure out those pain points and trying to get it into a system that allows us to prioritize. Well, I mean, if Nathan would open up about what's bothering him.
• 38:22
  Nathan Wrigley: Oh, if only I was chatty. Yeah.
• 38:27
  Dan Maby: We're sitting there, we're looking at 150 odd GitHub issues. And suddenly everything starts to get a priority. Out of the 150 you might have. 50-odd that are all a high priority. Well, of course, nothing's a priority in that scenario. It is challenging and something that doesn't often get discussed is that idea of if you're in business with another individual, partners, etc., you spend a lot of time with those people and you've got to make sure that that communication works.
• 38:55
  Dan Maby: You've got to figure out how you communicate with one another. You've got to figure out all sorts of different things. I mean, it really is a relationship. Yeah. Like I said, to have wedding vows, it sounds like. Well, it really is. And I like to tell people, you know, I talk about my cars or whatever. I say it's like a relationship. You have to decide what quirks with the person you're having the relationship with are tolerable. And if you can tolerate most of their quirks.
• 39:27
  Marc Benzakein: Then you get into that relationship and a partnership is definitely one of those things where you have to be totally all in on like accepting the quirks and saying the benefits outweigh the risks that's a nice way to put it yeah yeah yeah that's nice going along with this how you two work together I wanted to say also because I've been following the progress of this product for I don't know probably when did you announce it kind of like semi publicly a year ago maybe.
• 39:57
  Marc Benzakein: Nathan something along those lines yeah and I've been watching how Nathan in particular has actively sought out other people in the space to collaborate and get ideas and feedback and being open to that and I think that that's such an important part to the evolution of a product because at some point in time I hate to tell you this but the two of you are going to run out of ideas so being I mean it may be 10 years from now but at some point in time.
• 40:29
  Marc Benzakein: And what's going to drive the evolution and the growth of your product is going to be that of the community and the people that you're supporting. And so I will say just from what I've observed and having known Nathan for a little bit, how open you have been to people giving feedback. And I mean, even I've given a little bit of feedback here and there. And you guys have been just like, oh, yeah, that's a good idea or whatever. And I think that that is such an important, important part and piece of product development, because when you go from creating this product to actually servicing it, you need to be in touch with your community and you need to know what's needed and wanted.
• 41:12
  Nathan Wrigley: We're just at the very beginning of that journey, actually. So it really has been a bit of a build process behind closed doors. Dan and I have done various things. We've asked people what they think at various points. And then now we're at the point where it's gone out into the wild. And we are actively seeking at this point a few people to jump on board at a moment where they'll be able to suggest things to us that will be impactful.
• 41:39
  Nathan Wrigley: You know, two years down the line from now, the platform will probably have solidified in a certain direction based upon what our early users have requested of us. And so we've got this sort of founders deal on at the moment where we're offering a kind of really remarkably cheap price. And the reason for that is we want a bunch of people who are just invested in it and want to give us some helpful advice and help shape the platform. And in return, you know, there'll be that moment where maybe bugs will come along and you'll be able to help us through that part as well.
• 42:11
  Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I think you're right. It's going to be a journey. And we are very much at the beginning of that journey. Yeah, very much so. And the building that community around it is something we're passionate about. Yeah. Working with people, determining, you know, how does this platform work for you as a podcaster? And already we've built features, we've adjusted features based on the feedback that we've already received just in the last couple of months. And it's wonderful to really see that evolution of a product, an idea that you have, and it's suddenly people start using it.
• 42:42
  Dan Maby: And you start thinking, oh, actually, you know what, we can do it this way, we can try it that way. We just released our public API, for example, and we got pinged by one of our customers to say, hey, look, I've just built this on my site and I've just used your API, and it's fantastic. It's really great to see. That's so cool. Yeah. Because they've taken this idea and they've turned it into something that we hadn't even really considered. Isn't that amazing? It's so great. It's so lovely. I know that that happens a lot for us at Main WP, and I won't go down that road too much, but that does happen a lot for us, where people come in and they show us what they've built and we're like, oh my goodness, this is, why didn't we think of that or whatever.
• 43:19
  Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. And Nathan, it's gotta feel good for you too sometimes. It's good to see that other people's pain points are the same as yours. Yeah. You know. now. It's bound to be that not everybody will use all the platform. I think we've got so many things in there. It's going to be okay if you go to the website and you think, you know what, that isn't exactly my problem. Keep looking around because if you explore the depth of everything, not everything is going to be applicable to you. You might not have guests, for example, in which case you might not make use of the booking links, but all of the show notes and the publishing stuff and the transcriptions and all of that that we do on your behalf will be really interesting.
• 43:54
  Nathan Wrigley: But broadly speaking, it doesn't take too many hours on Reddit to figure out that there's a lot of people with a lot of problems in podcasting. Sure, I'm sure.
• 44:06
  Dan Maby: Well, I mean, just a lot of very, this is going to sound a bit arrogant. I don't mean it to sound arrogant. A lot of technically novice technical people, let's put it that way, have got themselves into podcasting and, you know, as soon as they are confronted with the problems that they're facing, that's a real mountain to overcome. So hopefully, you know, we'll be guided by them and they'll be guided by them. That's right. With the power of things like the automations, you get the MCP tools, there's some really interesting stuff that you can do. The analytics, when you combine the analytics with the MCP tools, it's like, hang on a minute, I can suddenly I can crawl some really rich data there using an AI agent. So I can start to determine which guests are actually generating more listens, for example.
• 44:53
  Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. When this episode goes live, so we'll edit this down. I'll upload it to our platform. It will then transcribe it. It will then say, who's this talking? And I'll say, that's Mark. That's Nathan. That's Dan. Then when that transcription goes on the website, we'll be able to determine what percentage of the time different people spoke. And then let's say, for example, Mark, you come on my podcast 25 times. And every time you come on my podcast, it's noticed like we get more downloads.
• 45:23
  Nathan Wrigley: Mark comes on. More downloads. Mark's on. Again, we've got loads of downloads.
• 45:28
  Marc Benzakein: I feel like AI is hallucinating right now. Well, okay, yeah. But you get what I mean. And that's such a really interesting thing that we can do because we have the transcript and we know the names of the people on your podcast. And that can then bind into our data. I don't know that anybody else can do that. And I think that's a really interesting thing. Go to your MCP and say, who's popular? And then you can trigger an automation off the back of that to say, you know, this individual we're seeing the increase in downloads and it will fire out emails to inform the guests that actually, you know, your episode was very popular.
• 46:03
  Marc Benzakein: Yeah. And once again, as I mentioned earlier, I think guests like that kind of feedback. They want to know, you know, they don't want to know that they weren't listened to, but if they are interested in like improving their presence, it's good data to have. Yeah. And you also have the ability to provide client reports.
• 46:22
  Nathan Wrigley: Oh, yeah. Talk about that. So I'll lead with this if that's alright Dan. A lot of podcasters wish to have sponsorship for their podcast. That's a really credible way of making your podcast worth the while. You get a sponsor on they'll pay for a proportion of your time or whatever or they'll give you some dollars in exchange for let's say a mention in the show or you might call it an ad or something like that.
• 46:48
  Nathan Wrigley: However typically what happens is those sponsors prior to jumping on your podcast and sponsoring you will wish to know what your data looks like and typically that's really hard to do because you have to log into the hosting platform maybe download a PDF or something like that share it there's that whole thing it could be doctored god forbid that people would do that but it could be doctored.
• 47:15
  Nathan Wrigley: But what we provide is you can go into the platform open it up and say okay make me a report for the last three months of podcast data. Star Wars Then it creates a link. You send that link to your potential sponsor and they can see. And then you can make that link expire after seven days or a week or, you know, that's the same thing, by the way, Nathan. Seven days or two weeks or, you know, a day or something like that. And then you can move on. Or you could, I don't know, just send it to somebody who might be a current sponsor to say, look, this is what you have been receiving during your sponsorship.
• 47:51
  Dan Maby: And I think that's really powerful. And as far as I'm aware, nobody does that apart from us. We're IAB aligned in our analytics. So we're really looking to build trust within those analytics. So we block bots, we block data centers as various aspects. Because that data is of no use to anyone. They're not genuine listeners.
• 48:12
  Marc Benzakein: Right.
• 48:12
  Dan Maby: Yeah. We want to make sure we look for a minimum of 30 seconds of audio play. There's various things here. So you may come to us and you may think, hang on a minute, my analytics have dropped. You know, I'm seeing less listeners. The reality is, unfortunately, there are several solutions that don't. block some of this traffic now and we really need to make sure that that information particularly if it's been bound to something like sponsorship is genuine data there was something you showed me Nathan the other day and by the way I really recommend to anyone listening to this that you go to the show.fm website and just click on the features button and this whole page comes up with and it sounds like Dan's like adding new features every five seconds yeah give him a minute
• 48:58
  Marc Benzakein: or at least between Tuesdays so I would say you know so I recommend that everybody go and they look at this there was something you showed me and I can't remember the context it was in and I apologize for that Nathan but you showed me you had like this little workflow builder oh yeah and I want you to talk about that I know that it's not something you can show visually here but if you could like describe it there are some really easy ways to describe it but then I want everybody's mind to just sort of free up a little bit and think okay we could go really complicated with this and we call it automations and it's basically think of something like Zapier or something like that you start off with a trigger
• 49:41
  Nathan Wrigley: And then the trigger leads to actions. And so the trigger could be, when is an episode going to be recorded? So that's a date trigger. And there's a moment in time, you put it in the app, somebody books on at 2pm on the 21st of October, that then becomes the recording moment. You could set up an automation to say, 24 hours before that moment is reached, send all the guests an email with this template. So you write the email, put the merge tags in for first name, you know, recording time, you put the email in whatever you like, and then that email will go out.
• 50:15
  Nathan Wrigley: And it's a good way, you could do that two hours before, and it's a good way of making sure that people show up. But we've got so many triggers in the platform based upon things like dates and times, guests doing particular things, download analytic data, all of this kind of stuff. And you can really get complicated. So the action could be a fork in the road, you know, if this do that, if it's not this, do something else, wait, send an email.
• 50:43
  Nathan Wrigley: But probably one of the most powerful ones is send a webhook because when you've got the webhooks configured correctly well then you can send any information as a little parcel of information any way you like so you could send people into your CRM or whatever. It's incredibly powerful and we're just kind of really keen to see what people can do with that. And by the way it's incredibly easy. It's all drag and drop. It is so easy and so cool and if you've ever created a Zapier or anything like that I thought kind of mind blowing how simple you made it.
• 51:18
  Dan Maby: I think you've covered it really well there. It's about enabling integration essentially. Integration with external services if you're looking at the webhooks. It's that balance of technical and simplicity. And that's a really fine line to try and tread isn't it? So things like we introduce magic tags for example. About 50 odd magic tags across it which you can drop into your email templates. There's just a ton of places across the app that you can use those. Which means that it is very much a sort of a set and forget for many of these things you know you want to remind your guests an hour before you want to send them a link out an hour after you've published for example to the public page there's all sorts of ways in which you can construct that and the magic tags really do allow an incredible level of flexibility across the platform.
• 52:03
  Nathan Wrigley: So if you've ever felt guilty because you never communicate with your guests after a podcast episode well this allows you to do that kind of on an autopilot basis and you know you may think to yourself well that's not me really doing it but but the guests will quite like it you know the fact that you show them okay here's the page where it is if you want to go and share that and reply to this email and i'll get back to you straight away that'll never be missed by you again the moment the podcast goes live maybe you say wait an hour something like that then send it to all the guests.
• 52:31
  Nathan Wrigley: Maybe some additional information you know come on another time here's the booking link let's do it again in six months time you could send an email in a year's time again totally automated. Just to just to let people come on. And so it's about those little things that your podcast could do with to be more credible. A friend of mine described the platform thus and I love this. He says it allows you to concentrate on the artistry of your podcast and not the tedious stuff.
• 53:00
  Marc Benzakein: That's really good yeah yeah that's a really good way to put it and what's really nice is of course I think you said it Nathan earlier these are all things or a lot of these things are things you can do like with five million different services and this just all is like under one umbrella you just like go to one URL and actually maybe some of it isn't like the analytics and stuff like that you probably would have to like really go through a lot of brain damage in order to get the analytics at the level that you have so I think that that's pretty pretty impressive. I think it's getting close to time that we probably need to wrap this up even though there's probably a hundred more questions to ask we could talk for days but you're right but I do have so I'm gonna ask each one of you a question.
• 53:48
  Marc Benzakein: And then I'm going to answer the question myself if you didn't copy my answer. Dan, favorite feature or the one you're most proud of? Ooh. Love that. Gosh. Ooh. I don't know. I'm torn between API and automations. Yeah. Clever stuff. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Nathan. For me, it's got to be the whole booking process because that is a real actual time sock.
• 54:15
  Nathan Wrigley: And with this, you send a booking link in an email and the podcast episode and everything is made. You don't have to do anything. All you have to do is go in at one point and say, actually, yeah, they look they look like the kind of guests. You click a button to confirm them and then all these other things happen in the background. So it's it's brilliant from that. Can I add? Have you changed your mind? No, no, it's too late. Guest portal. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The guest portal.
• 54:41
  Marc Benzakein: Yeah, the guest network. We didn't even talk about the guest portal, did we? We just.
• 54:47
  Nathan Wrigley: Oh, yeah. We're actually in there at the minute episode. Yeah. We've been having a chat. We've got a whole chat widget buried inside the episode. And the chat widget of all the things. I have to say that's my favorite thing. I know that that's crazy, but looking at it from the guest point of view, because I'm looking at it from the guest point of view, I think that it was really cool that leading up to this episode, we had some interactions, and they were real-time-ish. Obviously, it was like I typed and then you came on because you're 15,000 hours ahead of me, and you came on when it was convenient for you.
• 55:22
  Marc Benzakein: But what I really liked is it gave this a better feeling of pre-show collaboration that doesn't normally happen. And so I was thinking about that. Actually, last night I was in the shower and I was like, you know, that's really a cool feature that, you know, that we just kind of like, we kind of take chatting for granted. But what's nice is that it's not like a channel full of 100 people. It's a channel of the people that are relevant to that episode of that show. And so you're only talking about those things.
• 55:54
  Nathan Wrigley: And it makes it really easy to focus and kind of plan and kind of see where things are going. And so I really enjoy that feature a lot, actually. So we had this in the old platform, but it was in a separate UI. You had to click into another tab, do the chat and then come back somewhere else. So this all happens alongside things like the show notes. It's always there. It's like stuck to the side. Right. And you're absolutely right. Like I've now done probably about seven or eight episodes, maybe six or seven episodes through show.fm every time the chat has been busy.
• 56:29
  Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. And I didn't expect that, but we've got like emoji support and people quickly find that and, you know, fire and, you know, hearts and all that going. And we've probably got in the chat for this one, we've probably got about, I would say about. 20, 25 something like that comments I'm guessing and all it took was for one of us to kickstart it so yeah if you're the podcast host you just write something they all get the email to say there's an update going right in and then off it goes and you just rip around what's going on it's brilliant yeah yeah it really it really is cool yeah you think all the show notes which are the live collaboration there you can see kind of google doc type environment and I guess yeah we didn't even talk about the guest portal but it is
• 57:14
  Marc Benzakein: very cool because like for me like I'm gonna be on your show on Monday I think it's now your show just so that we are clear yes because I've taken it over that's right yeah yeah and it shows like right there these are the shows you're gonna be on and then you click on that and and it's just oh yeah so when you log in of course you have a list of all the shows about the shows that I'm gonna write yeah yeah I can see you spend a lot of time in the guest portal yes so my because I have a different set of privileges than you you Because that's how the platform works you know different people and because I run this podcast yeah I have a slightly more complicated interface and so it's different for you and I kind of forget sometimes what yours looks like but I have that dashboard as well but also because you're part of my and I'm doing air quotes here team I can just add you in to any episode by clicking a button so if I wanted you to just drop into an episode I can just click a button you're in you can then kind of manage that episode on my behalf and there's
• 58:14
  Marc Benzakein: this whole team system going on but it's absolutely fantastic and like I said we didn't really even get into the guest portal because we're just talking about running it from the host point of view but the guest portal really is a whole nother powerful part of the whole show.fm product yeah we're both quite proud aren't we Dan I think We are. Yes. It's actually exciting to see people as proud as they are of the child that they've created. So, you know, yeah, I'm the child that they are as well.
• 58:44
  Nathan Wrigley: Yes. So, yeah, well, this has been fantastic. Is there anything else that you feel like I might have missed in all of this? I feel like there probably is. I think the bit that we're trying to drill home at the moment is that if you've got an intuition that you want to do a podcast or that you have a podcast that kind of maybe fell into disrepair and you never carried on, definitely have a look. This may well take away a lot of the pain points. And just bear in mind that we are doing this 100 people license thing.
• 59:13
  Nathan Wrigley: And what I mean by that is we're onboarding 100 different people at this price point. Basically, it's $11 a month. That includes hosting the whole guest network teams, everything that we've described today. There's a lot of depth and a lot of breadth. And you can find that at the founders page, which is show.fm forward slash.
• 59:34
  Marc Benzakein: And there is a button on the front page that says Founders, I think Founders Special or something like that. I just want to reiterate that we're offering the studio plan under the founders as a founders deal. So you've got three years of access to the entire platform under the studio plan. We very intentionally haven't made this a lifetime deal because we want to create a sustainable business here.
• 1:00:00
  Dan Maby: This is what the focus is around here. This is something for the long term here. And the ability to have access to that studio plan actually allows you to publish up to 30 episodes a month under it. And you can create as many podcasts as you want. There's no limitation to the number of podcasts. You've got your teams in there so you can have multiple team members supporting it. Three seats included. There's a heck of a lot that's included for equivalent to $11 a month.
• 1:00:28
  Marc Benzakein: Yeah, that's actually very, very reasonable. And I just I just wanted to say one more thing because you kind of touched on it, Nathan, which is if you are just starting out a podcast and you don't even know what you need, but you're just getting going. This is a great place to start because even if you don't use all the features. You will grow into using them. And with any system, if you start out with the right system, it makes life so much easier going down the road.
• 1:00:55
  Nathan Wrigley: This is gonna sound so boastful, but I'm going to say it. There is genuinely nothing like it. There is no tool out there that does a fraction of what this does. It's born out of a lot of thinking, a lot of hard work and a lot of botting up against myriad problems and trying to fix them all in one platform. So if you are starting out, I suspect that you will get a lot of benefit out of it. Yeah. Thank you, Mark. Appreciate it.
• 1:01:25
  Marc Benzakein: Yeah. And Nathan, I'm sure you wake up every day and feel like I wish I had this on day one. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Or what actually happens at the minute is I wake up and I think, what's Dan got for me today? That's there you go.
• 1:01:40
  Nathan Wrigley: Christmas every day. It is really like he totally. Earlier today, just this whole WordPress plugin thing which is just utterly brilliant. If you're a WordPresser, there is no better way to do podcasting than the platform that we now have. Genuinely, there's nothing which comes close. So there we go. Thank you for joining me on my show. I thank you once again for asking me to do this. Just go to show.fm and check it out. It'll be well worth your time.
• 1:02:12
  Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Can we, just for future, can you do all the episodes and I'll take all the credit and, you know, that'd be great. I'm a total behind the scenes person and you could even AI your face on it and, you know. Oh, no AI wants to look at my face. I really appreciate it, Mark. Thank you so much. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Very grateful, Mark. Thank you. Oh, of course. Do we need to do this?
• 1:02:42
  Nathan Wrigley: No. Even though no one can see us? Yeah. No one can see us. No capturing of the video. Right, let me stop there.
• 1:02:51
  Dan Maby: What we're trying to do here with the platform is utilize AI in a genuinely useful way. Sorry, ice cream bad. It's the ice cream bad again. Hang on. I'm going to just mark that as ice cream.
• 1:03:07
  Marc Benzakein: Ice cream. I think you should name this show the ice cream front takes over WP Builds. Has it gone?
• 1:03:16
  Marc Benzakein: Gone. Okay. Where were we? Not a clue.
• 1:03:28
  Nathan Wrigley: That was really great. Thank you Mark.