Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BREAKING: 2-PART SPECIAL "I SURVIVED BTK SERIAL KILLER" part 1

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BREAKING: 2-PART SPECIAL "I SURVIVED BTK SERIAL KILLER" part 1 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grease.
0:13
Speaker 2: Have you ever cheated death? I have. I can think
0:17
Speaker 2: of twice. Once when a witness pulled a long gun
0:22
Speaker 2: on me and my investigator and I jumped off a porch,
0:27
Speaker 2: and the other when I nearly drowned and my now
0:31
Speaker 2: husband save me. I can think of those two times
0:35
Speaker 2: I cheated death. There are a lot of near hit stories,
0:40
Speaker 2: aren't there. Well, you are about to meet a woman
0:46
Speaker 2: who has, without a doubt, cheated death. In the fore
0:52
Speaker 2: ofb B t K bide torture kill, the dog actually
1:00
Speaker 2: turned serial killer Dennis Raider. That's right. This woman met
1:09
Speaker 2: up with him for a date of sorts. She got
1:14
Speaker 2: a sixth sense just before they left alone, and she
1:19
Speaker 2: lived to tell the story. And this is coming out now.
1:25
Speaker 2: Apparently the dogcatcher turned serial killer believed investigations into him
1:31
Speaker 2: were cooling off, just days before Sheriff Eddie Verdin announces
1:40
Speaker 2: a national task force to connect him to unsolved cold cases. Now,
1:46
Speaker 2: remember BTK, Dennis Raider is lounging right now while we're
1:52
Speaker 2: all working. He's lounging, getting three hots in a cot,
1:57
Speaker 2: no threat of the death penalty, riding his memoirs, speaking
2:01
Speaker 2: to authors and admirers who have apparently fallen under his spell. Yes,
2:06
Speaker 2: that's true. He's lounging right now, but watch out BTK
2:12
Speaker 2: because some jurisdictions still have the death penalty. Talking about
2:17
Speaker 2: old Sparky the needle. Don't get too comfy. I mean
2:22
Speaker 2: to see grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
2:24
Speaker 2: being with us here on crime stories and on serious
2:27
Speaker 2: x SEM one eleven. First of all, take a listen
2:34
Speaker 2: to this.
2:34
Speaker 3: During an investigation, investigators do not like to share information
2:38
Speaker 3: with the media because they don't want anything to jeopardize
2:40
Speaker 3: the investigation. However, unless you're in the media or law enforcement,
2:44
Speaker 3: you might not know what can be released to the public.
2:47
Speaker 3: So home owners of property in Butler County, Kansas, say
2:50
Speaker 3: sheriff's deputies and investigators were on their property for seven
2:53
Speaker 3: hours looking for evidence related to a missing person's case.
2:56
Speaker 3: They couldn't remember the name of the person they were
2:58
Speaker 3: looking for, but they did remember them with sixteen. Cynthia
3:01
Speaker 3: don Kenney was sixteen when she vanished. The property owners
3:05
Speaker 3: added that the Osh County Sheriff's Office came to the
3:07
Speaker 3: property in March. At that time, search dogs were brought out,
3:10
Speaker 3: but the property owners saying nothing was found. Elena Burrows
3:14
Speaker 3: with CSI Crime Scene Confidential told KSNTV quote, we have
3:18
Speaker 3: received information that Dennis Raider has been on this property
3:21
Speaker 3: at some point in time. The National BTK Task Force
3:24
Speaker 3: is here to follow up on those lead.
3:26
Speaker 2: This as one of three women depicted in sketches made
3:31
Speaker 2: by BTK Dennis Raider showing girls bound and little shorty
3:36
Speaker 2: nightgown looking outfits, is positively identified. One of his drawings.
3:43
Speaker 2: He would apparently take photos of himself dressed in the
3:48
Speaker 2: victim's clothes, wearing wigs, he would wear makeup, and he
3:52
Speaker 2: would bind himself and take selfies. Then he would all
4:00
Speaker 2: to sketch draw what we believe to be some of
4:04
Speaker 2: his still unidentified victims bound about to be tortured and killed.
4:11
Speaker 2: But right now a woman who I believe truly cheated death.
4:16
Speaker 2: An angel was there with her when she parted ways
4:20
Speaker 2: with Dennis Raider. Gina Rodriguez is with us and she
4:25
Speaker 2: is telling you her story. Also with us, who will
4:28
Speaker 2: be weighing in renowned Sheriff Eddie Verden, who has assembled
4:34
Speaker 2: the BTK National Task Force. Cheryl McCollum, a member of
4:38
Speaker 2: the task Force forensic expert star of Zone seven, and
4:45
Speaker 2: you can find her at Coldcasecrimes dot org. She's the
4:48
Speaker 2: founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Doctor
4:52
Speaker 2: Joni Johnson a forensic psychologist and investigator and high profile
4:58
Speaker 2: trial lawyer out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction. Dale Carson, Why
5:02
Speaker 2: is he here? He's also a former FBI agent. But
5:07
Speaker 2: first to our special guest, Gina Rodriguez, Ms. Rodriguez, thank
5:11
Speaker 2: you for being with us.
5:12
Speaker 4: I'm glad to be able to speak.
5:14
Speaker 2: Boy am I glad to hear your voice because you're
5:17
Speaker 2: the first known survivor that can tell me about BTK.
5:24
Speaker 2: Everybody else is dead in horrible, horrible fashion. Gina, you
5:33
Speaker 2: have no idea how important your testimony, your story could be.
5:41
Speaker 2: It may help other women jog their memories. Tell me
5:48
Speaker 2: about when you met Dennis Rader.
5:52
Speaker 4: It was February of nineteen seventy four and my co workers,
5:56
Speaker 4: we were nurses at a local hospital and after our
5:59
Speaker 4: evening shift, we would go to this disco bar just
6:02
Speaker 4: to chill out before we went home to call it
6:05
Speaker 4: a day. And it was a Saturday night and one
6:08
Speaker 4: of my co workers and I we were we had
6:12
Speaker 4: the evening off the weekend off, so we decided we
6:15
Speaker 4: would go to this disco bar that was connected to
6:19
Speaker 4: a hotel. And I'm sitting there with her and she
6:26
Speaker 4: goes out to dance, leaving me sitting alone. And this
6:31
Speaker 4: man that I had watched, he was pacing back and forth.
6:35
Speaker 4: He wore a maroon suit and had on white shoes.
6:38
Speaker 4: He came over to ask me to dance, and it
6:41
Speaker 4: was a slow dance, and he talked to me and
6:46
Speaker 4: he's asked me what my name was, and told me,
6:49
Speaker 4: tell me about yourself, which I did, and I just
6:54
Speaker 4: told him that you know my age, and that I
6:58
Speaker 4: was just recently and where I worked. And then I said, well,
7:04
Speaker 4: tell me about yourself. What is your name? And he
7:06
Speaker 4: said Bob White. And he's trying to explain to me
7:13
Speaker 4: why he has white shoes on. He said people he
7:16
Speaker 4: wore white shoes had him on because he lived in
7:20
Speaker 4: California and the people in California wore white shoes all
7:24
Speaker 4: year round. And then the dance, well, first of all,
7:31
Speaker 4: I said, well, what kind of business are you here
7:34
Speaker 4: in which it on He said one word to me,
7:37
Speaker 4: He said McConnell, and that's an air Force space here.
7:41
Speaker 4: So he escursed me back to my chair after the dance,
7:48
Speaker 4: and in a little bit he comes over. He tells
7:51
Speaker 4: me he has to leave, but he said he would
7:53
Speaker 4: like to see me again. And against my better judgment,
7:57
Speaker 4: I've never been taught to do this, I gave you
8:01
Speaker 4: my phone numbers, so and he told me he would
8:05
Speaker 4: call me on a Tuesday. That was the day I
8:08
Speaker 4: had to return to work evening shift. He calls me
8:12
Speaker 4: and we agreed to meet at a restaurant. This restaurant
8:18
Speaker 4: was in a mall, a very popular mall, just down
8:22
Speaker 4: the street from the hospital. He tells me he might
8:25
Speaker 4: be a little late, but I was. I arrived at
8:28
Speaker 4: one around one pm, and when I go in, I'm
8:32
Speaker 4: expecting to be there first because he told me he
8:35
Speaker 4: might be late. Well, when I walked in there he
8:37
Speaker 4: was standing there waiting for me, and he was totally different.
8:43
Speaker 4: He did not even look like the same man. He
8:46
Speaker 4: was dressed in what I would call work clothes that
8:51
Speaker 4: someone would be working out in the cold. He had
8:55
Speaker 4: a hat on that had ear flap flaps to protect
9:03
Speaker 4: the ears. He had like a heavy jacket. He had
9:07
Speaker 4: gloves on. He had I believe khaki pants and boots
9:12
Speaker 4: and he had a bag with him that looked out
9:14
Speaker 4: of place, and I looked at it and he told
9:17
Speaker 4: me that that it had his books in it. And
9:21
Speaker 4: I said, well, I thought you had said you might
9:24
Speaker 4: be late, and he said yes, I had to take
9:27
Speaker 4: a bus all the way down hillside Grim w su
9:31
Speaker 4: You know, I couldn't help. But notice he had a
9:34
Speaker 4: very expensive wristwatch.
9:36
Speaker 1: On time stories with Nancy Grace, Guys with us, you
9:55
Speaker 1: are hearing Gina Rodriguez, who many, including my self, believe,
10:01
Speaker 1: cheated death on not one but two encounters with the
10:06
Speaker 1: Dennis Raider, the dogcatcher turned serial killer commonly known as
10:11
Speaker 1: BTK bind torture Kill.
10:15
Speaker 2: Now, Gina, you've told us this was feb February nineteen
10:19
Speaker 2: seventy four. You and your friends, your fellow nurses, often
10:25
Speaker 2: would stop by a disco after work, especially on weekends,
10:29
Speaker 2: to basically decompress. This night, you go to the disco.
10:33
Speaker 2: It's connected to a hotel. Your friend gets up to dance,
10:37
Speaker 2: leaving you alone. You are approached by a man you
10:40
Speaker 2: now know to be Dennis Raider. You had seen him
10:44
Speaker 2: pacing back and forth in the disco. He approaches you
10:47
Speaker 2: wearing a maroon suit and white shoes, which you distinctly recall.
10:53
Speaker 2: He gave a name, Bob White, which sounds like a
10:58
Speaker 2: fake name. But that said, he explained he was wearing
11:01
Speaker 2: white shoes because he was from California and quote, people
11:05
Speaker 2: in California wear white shoes all year long. Okay, You
11:11
Speaker 2: uncharacteristically give him your phone number when he had to leave.
11:15
Speaker 2: Then you agree to meet him for lunch at a
11:17
Speaker 2: restaurant near the hospital in a popular mall. Smart, there
11:21
Speaker 2: are a lot of people around. You thought he was
11:23
Speaker 2: going to be late. You arrive around one pm. He's there,
11:27
Speaker 2: but this time, no mouran suit of white shoes. He
11:29
Speaker 2: looks completely different, as if he had changed his whole
11:35
Speaker 2: to meet his whole look for you, he was wearing
11:38
Speaker 2: work clothes with a big bag, a hat with flaps
11:41
Speaker 2: over the ears, a heavy jacket as if he were
11:47
Speaker 2: working out in the cold. He says. He takes a
11:51
Speaker 2: bus all the way down from WSU. What in your
11:55
Speaker 2: area is WSU?
11:57
Speaker 4: It's Wichita State University. Hillside is a very popular street,
12:03
Speaker 4: well traveled.
12:04
Speaker 2: So he took a bus, he says, from Hillside to
12:07
Speaker 2: meet you at the mall. What mall was it?
12:09
Speaker 4: Harry Street mall. It's just east of Saint Joseph Hospital.
12:15
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're at launch. What happens?
12:18
Speaker 4: We'd go to sit down, and by then I'm becoming
12:24
Speaker 4: really nervous because it wasn't like I had remembered him
12:29
Speaker 4: at all. I even thought, do I have the right man?
12:33
Speaker 4: But he seemed to recognize me. So we sit down
12:37
Speaker 4: and he starts some conversation about a parochial school and
12:43
Speaker 4: tells me he hated them because he was once in
12:46
Speaker 4: an orban age. And then it leads on into he
12:50
Speaker 4: asked me, he said, He said, who do you live with?
12:57
Speaker 4: And he wanted specifically who I live with? I told
12:59
Speaker 4: him my mother, my dad, my two children, and my brother.
13:04
Speaker 4: He said, is there ever any time that you're alone?
13:07
Speaker 4: And I said no, people are around me all the time.
13:12
Speaker 4: So we have a little bit more conversation, and then
13:15
Speaker 4: he said, do you know of a place that we
13:18
Speaker 4: can be alone? He said, he said, because I do
13:25
Speaker 4: these things, or we are going to be doing some
13:28
Speaker 4: things that no one can see here or know about.
13:33
Speaker 4: And I insisted I didn't know of any place. Then
13:37
Speaker 4: we go on into the conversation. He tells me that
13:41
Speaker 4: he does photography, and that he uses a polaroid, and
13:47
Speaker 4: that he often did some of these things at his
13:51
Speaker 4: parents house. He never mentioned California again.
13:55
Speaker 2: Where did he indicate his parents were.
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Speaker 4: He didn't indicate. I just assume California. But you know, now,
14:01
Speaker 4: I know his parents were in Wichita, and his parents
14:07
Speaker 4: lived in Wichita around Cynica Street. So then we changed
14:17
Speaker 4: the conversation. That gets kind of it's hard to have
14:20
Speaker 4: conversation with him, and I realized I was too afraid
14:24
Speaker 4: to leave.
14:24
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that, you're too afraid to live?
14:27
Speaker 4: I was afraid that if I tried to leave, he
14:30
Speaker 4: would follow me and maybe get me alone. I was
14:33
Speaker 4: really afraid. So I thought, you're going to have to
14:36
Speaker 4: sit here until it's time for you to go to work.
14:39
Speaker 4: So I thought, I've got a lot of conversation to
14:41
Speaker 4: try to make with him. So it there was pauses,
14:48
Speaker 4: and suddenly he appears very upset and he says to me,
14:53
Speaker 4: I have a problem with this city. And I'm thinking, well,
14:56
Speaker 4: you're from California, And I said, well, what kind the problem?
15:01
Speaker 4: And he said city politics? And me, I was just
15:07
Speaker 4: trying to make conversation about things in Wichita and I said,
15:11
Speaker 4: did you hear about that family that was murdered a
15:15
Speaker 4: few weeks ago? And he says, yeah, there was They
15:19
Speaker 4: found a bootprint in the snow outside the window. And
15:24
Speaker 4: then she said and yeah, the detective sure had amestic
15:28
Speaker 4: clean up. And I said, oh. I said, well, how
15:33
Speaker 4: would you know that? I said, do you work with
15:36
Speaker 4: law enforcement? And he said no, And I said, well
15:39
Speaker 4: how did you know that then? And he said, the
15:43
Speaker 4: chief of security at WSU. And so we talk about
15:50
Speaker 4: a few more things, and suddenly he gets angry or
15:54
Speaker 4: looks angry with me, and he said, you find a
15:59
Speaker 4: place because I do these things, and I take pictures
16:04
Speaker 4: and record while I'm doing them. And then he indicates
16:08
Speaker 4: that the bag he had with me that was sitting
16:11
Speaker 4: on the floor in the rest or. He says, I
16:13
Speaker 4: have my things, my equipment, and in this bag and
16:19
Speaker 4: I'm sitting there, you know, just frightened and thinking how
16:24
Speaker 4: am I going to get out of here? And so
16:28
Speaker 4: we have some more conversation, and he he asked me
16:34
Speaker 4: if he said he had to go to Helsburg's, which
16:40
Speaker 4: was a jewelry store in the mall, to visit her friend.
16:46
Speaker 4: And he called her by name and said do you
16:49
Speaker 4: know her? And I said no, I didn't know her.
16:52
Speaker 4: And finally it's really, I'm really I have to leave.
16:59
Speaker 4: It's I'm almost late for work. And I jumped up
17:02
Speaker 4: real abruptly. I think I ran out of the restaurant.
17:06
Speaker 4: I don't know if the coffee was even paid for,
17:08
Speaker 4: but I start on my way to the car and
17:11
Speaker 4: he follows me, and I looked up put my hand
17:14
Speaker 4: up like stop. I said, I'm going to be late
17:17
Speaker 4: for work, and he said, well, i'll call you on Thursday,
17:22
Speaker 4: and I thought, okay, I've got to come up with
17:25
Speaker 4: an excuse before then. Then he tells me he's going
17:29
Speaker 4: back into the mall to go visit his friend at Helsburt's.
17:33
Speaker 4: So I go on to work, and two days later
17:36
Speaker 4: it's Valentine's Day. I remember that specifically. It was my
17:42
Speaker 4: first Valentine's after my husband left me. And when he
17:46
Speaker 4: calls me at one o'clock, I promptly tell him I
17:49
Speaker 4: can't see you again. I am taking my husband back.
17:54
Speaker 4: My kids really need him, and sarcastically, he says, this.
18:00
Speaker 5: Pull them to me.
18:01
Speaker 4: It's something about little lady in a shoe locking up
18:05
Speaker 4: and tying up my kids and I said, well, what
18:08
Speaker 4: do you mean by that? What is that supposed to mean?
18:12
Speaker 4: And he said, well, you know, little lady can't handle
18:15
Speaker 4: her kids, so she has to take Pubby back. And
18:19
Speaker 4: shortly after that, I said, well I have to go,
18:21
Speaker 4: and he said, oh, Gina, and I said yes, and
18:27
Speaker 4: he said roses are red peonies or pink. I cannot
18:32
Speaker 4: remember the third line, but the fourth line was I'll
18:35
Speaker 4: sure be blue without you. And we hung up. And
18:41
Speaker 4: I thought about this man, but I always pictured him
18:44
Speaker 4: being back in California, and when something would happen in Wichita,
18:49
Speaker 4: I would think that we wuld think, oh, no, he's
18:52
Speaker 4: in California. Well, then things around a few years. Well, god,
19:00
Speaker 4: take this back two years from that date. And I
19:05
Speaker 4: don't know who this was, but my husband and I
19:08
Speaker 4: I had taken him back. We went to a Valentine
19:12
Speaker 4: party at a sorority and my babysitter her parents were
19:18
Speaker 4: gonna be at the same party, and they asked me
19:20
Speaker 4: if my babysitter could spend the night with us because
19:24
Speaker 4: they were going to be out really late. I said
19:26
Speaker 4: that would be fine. Well, we went to the party.
19:29
Speaker 4: When I come back, we walk in the door, I
19:33
Speaker 4: meet the babysitter. There's tears in her eyes, her lip
19:37
Speaker 4: is trembling. She said, there's been a man calling for
19:42
Speaker 4: you all evening long, keeps asking for you. And she said,
19:48
Speaker 4: I looked out the window and there was a man
19:52
Speaker 4: standing in your yard. And I don't know if I
19:55
Speaker 4: just had a false sense of security. I can't remember,
19:59
Speaker 4: but I knew my husband was there and that things
20:01
Speaker 4: would probably be okay. We didn't see anything unusual when
20:05
Speaker 4: we pulled in the drive. So we all go to bed.
20:09
Speaker 4: My babysitter sleeping on the couch, My children are sleeping
20:13
Speaker 4: in their rooms. And about two fifteen, two thirty, I
20:17
Speaker 4: wake up and I hear a car pulling in the drive.
20:20
Speaker 4: You can hear the there's crackling from ice on the driveway,
20:26
Speaker 4: and I nudge my husband. I said, there's someone here,
20:30
Speaker 4: let me get it, because I didn't want anyone to
20:33
Speaker 4: persuade anyone that they needed inside the house. So I
20:37
Speaker 4: go down the hallway and he's banging on the front door,
20:42
Speaker 4: and I said who is it? And they wouldn't say
20:45
Speaker 4: use any words. I said, who is it? What do
20:48
Speaker 4: you want? And they're just pounding on the door, but
20:52
Speaker 4: they're making a growling type sound like they were angry.
20:57
Speaker 4: And then when the door didn't get in the door,
21:01
Speaker 4: he reaches over to my living room window and is
21:03
Speaker 4: trying to get in that, and then he goes over
21:08
Speaker 4: to my little girl's room and tries to get in there.
21:12
Speaker 2: Did you see his face?
21:14
Speaker 4: No, I didn't, but my little girl said she saw
21:18
Speaker 4: the shadow of him and it was a man. She
21:22
Speaker 4: said there must have been a moon, a full moon,
21:26
Speaker 4: because she said I could see his shadow and he
21:29
Speaker 4: was trying to get into my bedroom. And she said,
21:32
Speaker 4: I was trying to tell you, but you were already
21:36
Speaker 4: down the hall.
21:39
Speaker 2: What month with this Advangaina?
21:41
Speaker 4: February of fourth around twelfth through the fourteenth, because we've
21:46
Speaker 4: been to a Valentine party and it was in nineteen
21:50
Speaker 4: seventy six. It was two years later, almost to the.
21:52
Speaker 2: Day got it.
21:53
Speaker 4: So I'm standing there just frozen, because by then this
21:57
Speaker 4: person is at the front door and he sounds like
22:01
Speaker 4: he's using tools to try to get in through the doorknob,
22:05
Speaker 4: you know, like he's doing something to the doorknob. And
22:07
Speaker 4: I thought, oh my god, they're trying to get in
22:11
Speaker 4: here anyway. And about that time, my husband flies down
22:15
Speaker 4: the hall and he said, get the hell out of here.
22:17
Speaker 4: I have a gun, and that person flew off the
22:20
Speaker 4: porch and must have backed out of the drive. I
22:23
Speaker 4: don't even think I heard the cargo. And I did
22:27
Speaker 4: call the police and tell him what had happened, and
22:32
Speaker 4: they said, do you want us to come out? And
22:34
Speaker 4: I said, oh, I guess it's not necessary. They're gone now.
22:40
Speaker 4: So that's pretty much. I mean, there were some other
22:45
Speaker 4: things that happened in between there, things that I thought
22:49
Speaker 4: must be my imagination that uh I when I would
22:55
Speaker 4: come home from work, sometimes it seemed like someone had
22:58
Speaker 4: been in my house. Things just didn't seem right. And
23:03
Speaker 4: I did I have a necklace that's missing that I
23:08
Speaker 4: have been It's not an expensive necklace, but it had
23:11
Speaker 4: been given to me for a Christmas present, and I
23:16
Speaker 4: thought I might have some articles of clothing missing. And
23:22
Speaker 4: at that point some point I had a driver's license missing,
23:26
Speaker 4: but my purse. I always kept my driver's license in
23:31
Speaker 4: my purse and I never was without it, So I
23:36
Speaker 4: don't know how anyone would have got access to my
23:40
Speaker 4: driver's license.
23:41
Speaker 2: When did this happen.
23:42
Speaker 4: This would have happened between probably nineteen seventy four nineteen
23:48
Speaker 4: seventy seven. If sometime during that it was probably it
23:56
Speaker 4: just kept happening on and off. Someone was called telling
24:00
Speaker 4: me on the phone and they were playing that song
24:04
Speaker 4: Laid Down Sally.
24:07
Speaker 6: A lot.
24:07
Speaker 4: And then some man kept calling and just harassing me,
24:11
Speaker 4: and I kept saying, you've got the wrong number. Quit
24:14
Speaker 4: calling here, and I said, there's no Sally here, And
24:20
Speaker 4: finally I told him I was going to call the
24:24
Speaker 4: telephone company. And I call the telephone company, thought I
24:31
Speaker 4: was talking to an employee making a complaint. And the
24:37
Speaker 4: man that's been calling me every time I said you've
24:39
Speaker 4: got the wrong number, he said, oh, I'm so sorry. Well,
24:43
Speaker 4: when I was talking making the complaint, the employee or
24:47
Speaker 4: what I thought wasn't in play, said oh, I'm so sorry.
24:52
Speaker 4: And I mean, I thought, well, that's the man I'm
24:56
Speaker 4: making the complaint about. At point, and I don't remember when.
25:01
Speaker 4: I don't remember the time frames other than those dates
25:06
Speaker 4: that I gave you. But somewhere in between this window,
25:12
Speaker 4: some man knocked on my door. He said he was
25:15
Speaker 4: from the phone company and that they had noticed trouble
25:19
Speaker 4: on my line and that someone had tampered with my
25:22
Speaker 4: phone lines outside my house.
25:24
Speaker 2: Guys, you are hearing Gina Rodriguez, who met up with
25:31
Speaker 2: Dennish writar Dennis Writer known as BTK buying Torture Kill,
25:37
Speaker 2: and has lived to tell the tell Gina, Wendy, do
25:41
Speaker 2: you realize that the man you had met not once,
25:45
Speaker 2: but twice and possibly more unbeknownst to you, is in
25:50
Speaker 2: fact Dennis Writer.
25:52
Speaker 4: I began to get suspicious around nineteen seventy seven, when
25:58
Speaker 4: the witch Talk. He started making information available, like Wichita
26:04
Speaker 4: had a serial killer, and this is what he was, like,
26:07
Speaker 4: this is what he did. They said he said poems
26:12
Speaker 4: about his victims. And I thought, well, this man said
26:15
Speaker 4: poems to me. And then when BTK said what shall
26:20
Speaker 4: I call myself? Shall I call myself the Hillside Strangler?
26:25
Speaker 4: Should I call myself the poetic strangler? Or should I
26:29
Speaker 4: call myself BTK? Well I identified with that because he
26:33
Speaker 4: had said poems to me. This man had he had
26:37
Speaker 4: said he had to take a bus all the way
26:39
Speaker 4: down W S U H. And I began getting suspicious.
26:44
Speaker 4: But then I would say, no, that man's in California.
26:48
Speaker 4: Shortly after that we moved to Arizona. But when I
26:54
Speaker 4: would come back for a visit, I would ask everyone
26:57
Speaker 4: what do you think happened? And they said, well, we
26:59
Speaker 4: heard easy their imprisoner. He's dead, because it was just
27:03
Speaker 4: so silent. And then in Arizona, about maybe thirty years later,
27:13
Speaker 4: my daughter calls me. She's crying and she said, mother,
27:15
Speaker 4: Btk's back And I said, oh, no, honey, I said
27:19
Speaker 4: that lawyer just made a book. And she says, no,
27:22
Speaker 4: he's back. So I get on the internet. I look
27:26
Speaker 4: and sure enough he has resurfaced. So they're asking for tips.
27:32
Speaker 4: So I call on a Saturday morning and I give
27:34
Speaker 4: my tips. I was sure I knew who they were
27:38
Speaker 4: looking for by then, but I couldn't give him a
27:43
Speaker 4: name because he told me his name was Bob White,
27:45
Speaker 4: which you know, that's kind of a joke. Now I
27:49
Speaker 4: fell for it, And so I was watching everything about
27:54
Speaker 4: their investigations, and when they found him, I was waiting
27:58
Speaker 4: on the pictures, and sure enough I seen his pictures
28:02
Speaker 4: from what he looked like when I met him that day,
28:06
Speaker 4: you know that that time frame. I seen his Medworth
28:09
Speaker 4: County picture that was him. I looked at some of
28:13
Speaker 4: his other pictures, just a little tiny older version of him,
28:17
Speaker 4: and then his later vision but vision version. But I
28:24
Speaker 4: watched him on his court trial. He walks like him,
28:27
Speaker 4: he talks like him, he looks like him, just older,
28:33
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, I can't think of any reason
28:36
Speaker 4: why it wouldn't be.
28:37
Speaker 2: When you saw his picture, yes, of his younger self.
28:41
Speaker 2: Uh huh did you know that was Bob White? Absolutely
28:46
Speaker 2: joining me right now is an all star panel to
28:49
Speaker 2: make sense of what we have just heard from Gina
28:52
Speaker 2: Rodriguez one hundred percent certain that she met up on
28:59
Speaker 2: a date with BTK, not meeting him once, but twice.
29:05
Speaker 2: First to now renown Sheriff Eddie Verdin. Sheriff Eddie Verdon,
29:12
Speaker 2: I know that you and Cheryl, like myself are part
29:16
Speaker 2: of the new National task Force, so I know there
29:20
Speaker 2: are things that you can't discuss, such as ongoing things
29:25
Speaker 2: right now, additional victims you're looking at. But what this woman,
29:30
Speaker 2: Gino Driguez is telling you from his survivor's point of view,
29:36
Speaker 2: should open up a world of possibilities as to other victims,
29:41
Speaker 2: women that have gone missing and never been recovered in
29:44
Speaker 2: this area during this time period. Because now we are
29:48
Speaker 2: seeing it's not just him finding people on his dog
29:51
Speaker 2: catching route, about him going to bars and finding women.
29:56
Speaker 2: We are learning a whole new motors operend I'm method
30:01
Speaker 2: of operation. What does this mean to you?
30:03
Speaker 5: Share af Well, it's not surprising at all, Nancy. Right
30:07
Speaker 5: right now, I'm looking at one of the items collected
30:11
Speaker 5: back in two thousand and five in the search force,
30:13
Speaker 5: so off one of his drawings, and he's got a
30:16
Speaker 5: newspaper clipping or detective magazine clipper clipping that says a
30:23
Speaker 5: tragedy and lover's laying naked nurse had a date with murder.
30:30
Speaker 5: As you know, Hedge, I believe worked at the hospital.
30:34
Speaker 5: I'm not sure if it's the same hospital, but my
30:37
Speaker 5: understanding is she worked at the hospital or in the
30:39
Speaker 5: medical field, in which tire as well. Who is this
30:44
Speaker 5: edge one of his convicted victims.
30:47
Speaker 2: Yes, And in my mind that connects Gina even more
30:54
Speaker 2: so to BTK because apparently to you, Cheryl McCollum, that
30:58
Speaker 2: was a hunting ground the nurses leaving the hospital at night.
31:03
Speaker 7: Absolutely, he was known to stalk, he was known to
31:06
Speaker 7: drive around, he was known to get fixated. The story
31:09
Speaker 7: that she just told.
31:10
Speaker 8: The reason it's so critical to me is when you
31:13
Speaker 8: are looking at any cold case, as you well know,
31:16
Speaker 8: is Nancy, you and I talk about this all the time,
31:19
Speaker 8: people coming forward, additional witnesses helped fill in and build
31:25
Speaker 8: that timeline. And what she's doing again, She's given us
31:29
Speaker 8: a date and a time and a location that this
31:32
Speaker 8: that makes sense to us, and that is so critical
31:35
Speaker 8: and I just appreciate Miss Rodriguez's bravery.
31:53
Speaker 2: Prime stories With Nancy Grace, I want to talk about
31:57
Speaker 2: Marine Hedge, who is a course another victim of bt
32:03
Speaker 2: K sheriff that is a case that has already been adjudicated.
32:06
Speaker 2: What can you tell us about that specifically? Interested in
32:10
Speaker 2: similarities between Marine Hedges case and what Gina Rodriguez is
32:15
Speaker 2: telling us.
32:15
Speaker 5: Well, I mean she worked at a hospital, as my understanding,
32:20
Speaker 5: a widow.
32:21
Speaker 2: I know that without a husband at home, which is
32:24
Speaker 2: one of the things that he was asking Gina, who's
32:27
Speaker 2: at home with you?
32:28
Speaker 5: There's so many similarities in many of his cases. You know,
32:34
Speaker 5: numerous times we find newspaper clippings or detective magazine articles
32:40
Speaker 5: that he kept and saved with his trophies and with
32:43
Speaker 5: his drawings, and you can associate crimes or similar crimes
32:48
Speaker 5: to those. You know. One thing we located was a
32:53
Speaker 5: clipping where it says when fantasies become reality.
32:56
Speaker 2: Sheriff Verdin, isn't it true that in Marine Hedges case,
33:00
Speaker 2: we learned that her phone connection the phone line had
33:06
Speaker 2: been cut. The phone line was cut that allowed demistrator
33:10
Speaker 2: to sneak in the back door.
33:12
Speaker 5: Yes, you know he cut on a lot of the
33:15
Speaker 5: convicted cases. He cut the phone lines.
33:17
Speaker 2: Okay, Gina Rodriguez, I know you've made the id of BTK,
33:24
Speaker 2: and I know that the phone company told you your
33:26
Speaker 2: line had been tampered with. When you hear that this
33:31
Speaker 2: is an mo specifically as it relates to Marine Hedge,
33:36
Speaker 2: but others as well, what goes through your mind, Berett.
33:40
Speaker 4: That was one of his things that he did was
33:44
Speaker 4: cut or messed the telephone lines and played games on
33:49
Speaker 4: the phone to you.
33:50
Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, I got to tell you many of the
33:53
Speaker 2: things that Gina has just told us. I don't know
33:55
Speaker 2: that she realizes. You know, when you have a victim
34:00
Speaker 2: telling their story, they're telling you their individual story while
34:05
Speaker 2: we as prosecutors or investigators are connecting all these dots
34:10
Speaker 2: to other similar cases, fingerprint cases. The fact that her
34:16
Speaker 2: children were there, the fact that he thought maybe her
34:19
Speaker 2: husband was back, maybe maybe not. That would not have
34:23
Speaker 2: concerned b t K the fact that she may be
34:27
Speaker 2: there with children, and my mind would only it would
34:31
Speaker 2: be even more incendiary to him. He would kill a
34:35
Speaker 2: whole family no problem, and molest and kill the children
34:39
Speaker 2: as well, specifically going for the mother.
34:42
Speaker 7: Well, when you look at the head case and what
34:44
Speaker 7: Miss Rodriguez is telling us, Dennis Rader lived in the
34:48
Speaker 7: same community as Miss Hedge, so it was easy for
34:52
Speaker 7: him to keep an eye on her, even very casually
34:55
Speaker 7: she's working in her yard, they're passing each other.
34:57
Speaker 2: He lived on the same block as hev.
35:00
Speaker 7: Absolutely so what with miss Rodriguez, what she's painting this
35:05
Speaker 7: picture is with the phone calls and perhaps going by there,
35:10
Speaker 7: it could very well be a similar mo that he's
35:13
Speaker 7: keeping tabs on her. He's playing this cat and mouse
35:15
Speaker 7: where I can catch you and let you go anytime.
35:18
Speaker 7: I won't until I decide it's time to kill you.
35:21
Speaker 2: Take a listen to Dennis Writer in his own words.
35:25
Speaker 9: She was chosen. I went through the different phases stalking face,
35:30
Speaker 9: and since she lived down the street from me, I
35:33
Speaker 9: could watch coming going quite easily. As before I was
35:38
Speaker 9: going to have a sexual fantasy, so I brought my
35:40
Speaker 9: hit kit and lo and behold, her car was there.
35:45
Speaker 9: I thought, gee, she's not supposed to be home. So
35:48
Speaker 9: I very carefully snuck into the house kind of like
35:50
Speaker 9: a cat burglar, and after checking the house, she wasn't there.
35:54
Speaker 9: So about that time the doors rattled, So went back
36:00
Speaker 9: to one of the bedrooms and hit back there in
36:02
Speaker 9: one of the bedrooms, she came in with a male visitor.
36:07
Speaker 6: He left.
36:07
Speaker 9: I waited till a three hours in the morning, and
36:11
Speaker 9: then proceeded to speak into her bedroom and flip the
36:15
Speaker 9: lights on what looked like or I think the bathroom lights.
36:17
Speaker 9: I just though, didn't want to flip her lights on,
36:19
Speaker 9: and and she screamed and jump on the bed and
36:22
Speaker 9: strangled her.
36:22
Speaker 10: Manually, she indicated, this woman lived down the street from you.
36:26
Speaker 4: Did she know you?
36:28
Speaker 9: Casually we walked by and wave. She liked to work
36:31
Speaker 9: in her yard as well as I like to work.
36:33
Speaker 9: It's just a neighborly type thing. Wasn't anything personal. I mean,
36:37
Speaker 9: just a neighbor.
36:38
Speaker 2: You know. There's so many similarities between what Gina Rodriguez
36:42
Speaker 2: is telling us and what we know about BTK joining
36:46
Speaker 2: me right now. Former FBI agent for a police officer
36:49
Speaker 2: in Miami Day, author of Arrest Proof Yourself. You can
36:53
Speaker 2: find him at del cars at law dot com Dale
36:56
Speaker 2: jump in.
36:56
Speaker 6: You know, Gina's of the facts is so precise that
37:03
Speaker 6: it leads me to believe that she really was frightened
37:07
Speaker 6: when she met that individual, and as a result, it's
37:10
Speaker 6: concentrated that memory in a way that's immutable. Now I
37:15
Speaker 6: find that just absolutely fascinating that she went through this
37:18
Speaker 6: ritualization of conversation with him where he lays out all
37:22
Speaker 6: the parameters. He's in a bar and he is looking
37:27
Speaker 6: for potential victims. And what I find really fascinating is
37:31
Speaker 6: that this same methodology got more complex as time went on,
37:35
Speaker 6: as we know from the other cases. And frankly, this
37:39
Speaker 6: tells me that there are many other victims who may
37:42
Speaker 6: have had a close call with this sort of encounter
37:46
Speaker 6: with the individual, who may, now, as Magic Cheryl says,
37:50
Speaker 6: come forward and recount similar circumstances. Another really interesting point
37:55
Speaker 6: is that bt K said.
37:58
Speaker 5: Look, tell me where we can go.
38:01
Speaker 6: To be private. He's not setting up an advance where
38:04
Speaker 6: they're going to go. He's asking the victim to tell
38:08
Speaker 6: him where it is they can go to find some primisy.
38:11
Speaker 6: And that's a new aspect altogether. It from my perspective, and.
38:15
Speaker 2: We know a new hunting ground and discos and clubs
38:19
Speaker 2: near that hospital.
38:20
Speaker 6: If that's an ordinary hunting ground for serial killers, I
38:24
Speaker 6: mean they set a pattern, that's where they find them.
38:27
Speaker 6: I mean we see this with Bundy. We see the
38:30
Speaker 6: similarities between the two killers. And you know, if the
38:36
Speaker 6: evidence would find that Jana's necklace, it would be really
38:41
Speaker 6: fascinating if he saved that as a trophy, that would
38:44
Speaker 6: tie things together even more directly. But I think that
38:48
Speaker 6: Cheryl does that this is going to bring forth other
38:50
Speaker 6: witnesses that may be able to give him a timeline
38:53
Speaker 6: of where he was, what he was doing, and what
38:56
Speaker 6: his methodology was, because his methodology is something when generally
39:00
Speaker 6: need to be aware of. I mean, you know, no
39:03
Speaker 6: disrespect to you, but there were a whole bunch of
39:06
Speaker 6: red flags that flew in your face that you sort
39:09
Speaker 6: of ignored. And the result of that is I think
39:13
Speaker 6: that we all want to believe the best of people.
39:15
Speaker 2: Hold on, Dale Carson. Not everybody is like you or me,
39:20
Speaker 2: or Sheriff Verdon or Cheryl. We're in this business. I'm
39:25
Speaker 2: constantly on alert when I wake up in the morning,
39:29
Speaker 2: when I go to a hotel, the first thing I
39:30
Speaker 2: do is look under the bed. I mean, that's the
39:32
Speaker 2: way we live, right, because that's what we're used to.
39:35
Speaker 2: But normal people, not in this business, they don't do that, Fyi,
39:40
Speaker 2: dal Carson.
39:41
Speaker 6: That's why they're at such risk and why we need
39:44
Speaker 6: to educate people that when these red flags appear to
39:47
Speaker 6: take a step back, true, because they're clearly endangered.
39:50
Speaker 2: True in my view, Doctor Joni Johnson with US forensic
39:53
Speaker 2: psychologists and private investigator, author of Serial Killers one hundred
39:57
Speaker 2: and one question is true crime fans ask doctor Joni
40:02
Speaker 2: Johnson way in.
40:03
Speaker 10: Well, several things just jump in my mind. Being this
40:06
Speaker 10: was nineteen seventy four, I'm not sure that even you know,
40:10
Speaker 10: I would have been cautious or certainly as cautious as
40:13
Speaker 10: I am now. I think there's been a tremendous amount
40:15
Speaker 10: of progress made in terms of educating people about dangers
40:19
Speaker 10: and safety and those kinds of things. And I guess
40:22
Speaker 10: the other thing is, you know, that first encounter, Gina,
40:24
Speaker 10: that you had with mister White didn't Yeah, nothing seemed
40:30
Speaker 10: particularly off about it. It doesn't seem like and then
40:33
Speaker 10: when you met him again, I can only imagine a
40:36
Speaker 10: shocking it must have been just to see this person
40:38
Speaker 10: who doesn't even you know, look the same, act the
40:41
Speaker 10: same or anything like that. So I have to kind
40:43
Speaker 10: of take the opposite of, uh, you know, opinion of
40:45
Speaker 10: Dale to suth extent, and that I think you did
40:48
Speaker 10: see a kind of red slides, and I think you
40:50
Speaker 10: you listen to them, you know, in terms of thinking
40:53
Speaker 10: of ways to get out of that lunch with him
40:55
Speaker 10: being afraid. The detail that you used, just like Dale
41:00
Speaker 10: saying the detail that you use and describing your memories
41:03
Speaker 10: of that, to me are so credible because I think
41:05
Speaker 10: when people have a strong emotions in a situation and
41:08
Speaker 10: clearly you are afraid, they do rember things. Remember details,
41:11
Speaker 10: the white shoes, the suit, the things you said, I mean,
41:15
Speaker 10: everything that you're telling me, you know, just reaks the credibility.
41:18
Speaker 10: And so those are the two things that pop to
41:20
Speaker 10: mind immediately. But you know, I do think that again,
41:23
Speaker 10: just to kind of reiterate that, you know, red flags,
41:27
Speaker 10: you know, can be waving, and we're all different terms
41:29
Speaker 10: when we recognize that. But I don't know that that
41:32
Speaker 10: I see anything or heard the thing from what you
41:35
Speaker 10: did that makes me feel like you put yourself in
41:38
Speaker 10: any unnecessary danger, you know, giving your phone out to
41:40
Speaker 10: somebody that you just met. I think we've all done
41:42
Speaker 10: that at certain points, hopefully not anymore. But other than that,
41:46
Speaker 10: I think that you know, you take me to take
41:48
Speaker 10: some credit for the fact that you did listen to
41:51
Speaker 10: your instinct.
41:52
Speaker 2: Please join us again tomorrow for part two. Gina Rodriguez,
41:58
Speaker 2: who gives her story of her encounter with bt K
42:04
Speaker 2: by torture kill Dennis Rader. She is the woman who
42:11
Speaker 2: lived Goodbye Friend,