Latest / The Steep Stuff Podcast / Alex Rienzie | The Truth Behind Michelino Sunseri's Controversial Grand Teton FKT

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Alex Rienzie | The Truth Behind Michelino Sunseri's Controversial Grand Teton FKT · The Steep Stuff Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, guys?
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, james Lariello, and today we've got something fun for you all, something a little bit different, something unique.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Before we get started, I'm going to read off a statement that I want you guys to listen to, and then we're going to get into it from there.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: On September 2nd 2024, friend and professional endurance athlete, michelino Sinceri, etched his name in the arena of the gods by breaking Andy Anderson's FKT on the Grand Teton in two hours and 50 minutes.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In the aftermath of what was undeniably one of the greatest feats of mountain running the sport had ever seen, michelino's record was rejected by fastest known time and Michelino was investigated and charged by the National Park Service, citing violation 36 CFR 21B.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: This all came to be due to Michelino's choice and descent route, where Michelino bypassed the switchback using historically significant climbers trail leveraged in the last six of seven established FKTs on the route.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: In the weeks that followed, dozens of articles were written by major outlets that painted Michelino's effort in a light that did not reflect the facts of what actually took place on September 2nd 2024.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: To help provide a factual account of Michelino's effort, alex Rienzi, mountain athlete, community member and photographer on Michelino's record attempt was kind enough to provide a factual firsthand account of the details of Michelino's effort, as well as discuss in detail the climbers trail that Michelino chose.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: That spurred this conversation.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: It is my hope that, with the conclusion of Michelino's NPS hearing, that Fastest Known Time would reconsider splitting the route into old and new routes, according to FKT's prior endorsement of the climbers trail, given its historical significance in six of the last seven record attempts.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Please note that this discussion and my views, or any views, belong to myself and Alex in this conversation and that these in no way reflect any accounts, statements or beliefs of Michelino and Ceres.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Thanks, guys, we just wanted to get that over with, get that out to the world so you guys could hear my statement and what my thoughts or beliefs are for this actual episode.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: So yes, alex Rienzi was kind enough to come on.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: You guys might have heard him earlier in the week on the electric cable car podcast.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: This is something we've been planning for quite a bit of time now.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Alex runs and manages his own sub stack called Grizzlies and Avalanches where, after the record attempt and after all of these, all the negative press that came out surrounding the circumstances, alex was kind enough to write a very detailed factual firsthand account of what actually took place.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: So Alex joins me on this podcast to have this conversation.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Like I said, this does not in any way reflect any of the accounts or statements of Michelino's.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: This is specifically between me and Alex and our discussion of what actually took place.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: And, the very last but not least, I hope you guys enjoy this one.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: It's pretty fun, pretty special, pretty interesting, and I hope this can actually shape the public opinion around Michelino and kind of paint a little bit of a better picture of what actually happened.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Very last but not least, I know you guys know that I don't really do episodes on Zoom, but given the circumstances and where Alex is located versus where I'm located, and because of, like I said, the circumstances and with Michelino's NPS hearing coming up pretty soon, I did want to get this out to the world sooner rather than later.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: So we chose to go with a Zoom call.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: The audio quality is so so it's not ideal, it's not perfect, but I think you guys will understand and, like I said, I hope this shapes some public opinion and I hope you guys get a lot out of this.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: So thanks, so much, without further ado.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Alex Rienzi on the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: It's time.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: We are live.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Alex Rienze.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast, man.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: How are you?
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: What's up, James?
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: I'm good.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, man, this worked out well.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Really appreciate everything that you've done and, just like you know, reaching out, and it was really nice to be able to do this given the circumstances of kind of what went down, you know, a few months back surrounding Michelin Innocent Series FKT on the Grand, few months back surrounding Michelino Sinceri's FKT on the Grand.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: But before we get into that, maybe introduce yourself, talk a little bit about yourself and, yeah, let's find out who Alex is.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sounds good.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: The roller coaster ride, the unexpected roller coaster ride that this FKT has become, is mind-blowing.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so I have been friends with Michelino since I think 2022.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: I want to say summer 2022.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: I went on a trail run that he organizes.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: It used to be called mountain ninjas.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure what it's felt now.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: I'm just a group of people over in Teton Valley, idaho, running up various trails on the West side of the Tetons, the side that doesn't have the national park, or I should say has a portion of the national park, but not in the front front country.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Um, and he was just the nicest guy in those those runs.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: He could easily be tripling my speed on the uphills.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: At the time I was barely even able to do a sustained uphill run and I think one of the first runs I went up with him on was after he had ran the grants in the morning.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: One of the I think 40 something times these run the grants in the morning.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: One of the I think 40 something times these are on the grants over the course of his time in the Tetons.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Uh, so for me it was, uh, an ass kicking.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: For him it was a cool down, um, and that was my first memory of Mick and Lena.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: I'm just super, super nice guy, um, uh, holding my hand as I first got into trail running.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Uh, at that point I was two years into my time in Jackson, moved out to Jackson in 2020 from New York City during COVID like a lot of other people and stuck around.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: I now split time between there and LA.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: I was in a former life a lawyer, an investment banker, moved to Jackson work in a hospitality company.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: I've done a few things since, some freelance work, but through that time got really into mountaineering and I think fall of 2021, I became a little bit obsessed with the idea of skiing around Teton.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: That was when I realized that people had done it.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Looking up at that summit in the winter especially, it is surrounded by cliffs, it's almost impossible to even imagine a ski more wrapped down and that became kind of the overriding sense obsession that got me into trail running, mountaineering, building up cardio, building up technical skills and that whole personal journey for me centered around Grand Teton In summer at the end of summer 2022, I think I first yep, that was the first summer that I summited the Grand, to be at Owen Spalding, which is the route that FKT attempts also happen to take.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: And in the course of doing all the research and technical prep and cardio conditioning, I spent a lot of time in the Wyoming Whiskey blog, which really details the route, the approach, the rock, the thousand variations that you can take to get to the summit.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: I saw the FKT, which at the time was Andy Anderson two hours 53 minutes and, I think, two seconds and at first I thought there's no way someone gets to the summit that fast.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: And then I realized that was the round trip FKT and I was just blown away.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: It's amazing, it's crazy.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's super technical terrain, it's exposed, uh, the peak is five port climbing.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: But if you take catwalk and bypass that, like everybody who runs the speed record does, I imagine you probably top out in five, two, five, three train, um, and the vast majority of parties are doing it over two to three days and they're roping up right there.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Um, they've got harnesses on, they've got full racks, uh, they've got puffers and helmets and overnight gear.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: I mean it's a whole expedition for most people.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: For me, I think the first time I did it was around 12 hours, wow, um.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: So again, you know, over four times the fkt, yeah, since then I've knocked myself down to like a two times, three times FKT guy, but at the time I was a four times FKT guy.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Wow, wow, do you do?
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: that?
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my path to the grand.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Since then, I ultimately, you know, skied the peak a few times and gone on to do other things, but all of my mountaineering experience comes down to the grand.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: It's a really special mountain to me, which is ultimately how I got involved with Michelino and even in summer 2023, me and Connor went up there to similarly witness and take some photos for Jack Kunzel, who attempted and got, I think, 302 in August 2023.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Can you speak a little bit to Well?
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Obviously you're super knowledgeable about it.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: I appreciate the background as well.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of little tidbits and things like that.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize you were a Northeast guy and worked in banking so my day job is corporate finance, so a little bit across over there.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I did a little stint in private equity before I went to go you did Uh-oh yeah, no point, I didn't know.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I was on the phoneint in private equity before I went to go.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: You did, uh-oh yeah.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: No, no, no.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: I didn't know.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: I was on the phone with a private equity guy.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Not anymore, not anymore.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: But yeah, man, so no, I really appreciate the synopsis and the breakdown of your background, what you've done and obviously you're just so extremely knowledgeable given the circumstances.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: So, if you wouldn't mind, and the first thing I will direct the audience to is, when you get a chance, it's going to be linked in the show notes, is going to be to your sub stack.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: That's called Grizzlies and Avalanches.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: You wrote a beautiful breakdown, in my opinion and I think you would agree, called the Inside Scoop on Michelino's Controversial Grand Teton FKT and if you wouldn't mind, maybe just give a little bit of a background on that.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: And then I'm going to ask, kind of ask questions from there and we'll break it down.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally so.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: I obviously was there on the day of and I was a witness to a lot of the prep that Mikulina was doing in advance of the FKT, and then I saw the full aftermath.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: At first there was elation, a sense of relief.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: He got the record.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: We were all excited and then he submitted the FKT for verification by FastSnowTimecom and a week after the actual run and a few days after the submission, the tone changed dramatically.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: We first learned that Best Snowtime was looking into the Old Climbers Trail, which was part of the route that he ran on the lower switchbacks, or was commonly known as the lower switchbacks.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: We still thought it was going to get accepted.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: Ultimately it was rejected and then things really escalated, with a series of press reports started, with a handful, a local newspaper reported on the FKTV rejected, and since then I think there have been 20 news articles somewhere in that ballpark, maybe two dozen.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: At this point I've lost track of some of them.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: And what I thought was really unfortunate here is the conversation shifted from what was a really impressive run and I think, a run that was in the spirit of six of all of the prior speed records on Grand Teton following a very similar route.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: There was one small variation with the most recent FKT, but aside from that, I mean he's run essentially a consistent route to six of seven prior speed records on Grand Teton and it's an insane time.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: He's one of, to my knowledge, three people who's ever broken the three hour barrier.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Maybe someone else has done it.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: There's always an incomplete record of speed attempts like this one, but that's what the story should be, and increasingly the media reports, because they don't have all of the information, we're framing it as Michelino somehow getting caught course cutting or cheating and that just couldn't be further from the truth.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: I think there's a legitimate stylistic debate around whether the old climbers trail should be kosher further out or not kosher further out.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Climbers trail should be kosher for the route or not kosher for the route.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: But as of his run, even up to a week after his run, there were five speed records on fkt webs, fkt's website, um.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Four of them took the same climbers trail.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: That's causing all the controversy now and there were no warnings, no markings, nothing coming from fastsnowtimecom, and I think it was open for debate and not a minimum gray area within the mountain running community.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you for that.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: I appreciate the breakdown there, do you think?
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: So one of the things I really wanted to get into and highlight, we're going to talk about how FKT I guess you could say how it was made aware to the NPS.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: The first thing I'd like to talk about, though, are some of the route options, because you kind of touched on it initially, but just kind of breaking down okay, what are the route options that I guess you could say the most popular ones that runners have taken to the top and down?
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: And then let's break into the climbers route that Mike took after that.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Sweet.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I can just break down the whole route at this point.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: I've done the mountain a dozen times, I think, in the summer, maybe seven or eight the rest of the winter.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: So for people who visited Grand Teton the speed record has to stop and start at Lupine Meadows trailhead.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Lupine Meadows is just a little bit south of jenny lake, um the visitor center and the you know, I think, probably the most popular tourist destination in grantee town national park.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Um, off the main road you make a left if you're coming from uh town and you make a right if you're coming from uhan Junction or Yellowstone National Park and you go down a dirt road that ultimately ends at a trailhead which is the basing area for anything up in Garland Canyon or really in the Cathedral Group more generally.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Right, if you're going to Teewanot, you're going to Lupine Meadows.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: If you're going to South Teton or anything along that ridge line to Napersay, you're going to Lupine Meadows.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: So from that trailhead there's an official and well-maintained trail that takes you all the way up to the mouth of Garnet Canyon.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: You're technically on, I think, two or three trails over the course of that sequence.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: You start on the valley trail that would ultimately take you to Phelps.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: If you don't make a right.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: You're going south for maybe a half mile.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Then you turn west and start going uphill.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: You run into a series of switchbacks.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: At that point you're on the Amphitheater Lake Trail and there are two options.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: On the uphill, everybody, including Michelino, stayed on the official maintained trail all the way up to the Garnet Canyon Trail.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: At Garnet Canyon the boulder field starts.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Now, between that garnet canyon entrance and those lower switchbacks there's also an old climber's trail that six out of seven prior speed records on grand teton have taken on descents, which is exactly what michelino did.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: On the uphill he ran the official maintain trail.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: It's less technical, it's easier.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: I've always taken it, just because I'm not going for speed when I'm going up and down Grand Teton or going for speed where something like that matters, and at that point in my journey I just want to stay on the trail.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: That's easier to run.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: But so, yeah, he took official maintain trail all the way up into Garnett Canyon on ascent, and then on descent he took the old climber's trail, which doesn't cut a switchback, it's just a trail alternative that links the trail in the mouth of Garnett Canyon to the Amphitheater Lake Trail a little bit further down the ridgeline.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Once you get to Garnett Canyon you enter a few different boulder fields and at that point the National Park Service no longer has any official trails.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: They unofficially maintain some climbers trails going into the North Fork and South Fork of Garnett Canyon.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: To go to Grand Teton you have to make a right and go into the North Fork and every single person who's run a speed record on Grand Teton or a speed record attempt has pieced their own way from there or pieced together their own way from there.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: There are a series of social climbers trails that take you up past Spalding Falls and then into the Moraine.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: At that point you're largely boulder field hopping.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: There's some um, some rough, loose trail, scree, talus, a whole bunch of mixed terrain that gets you up to the lower saddle.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: At the lower saddle you have your of the route.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: It's all, I guess, low fifth class, probably like five, one um, and there's a fixed line that's maintained to get you up to the lower saddle.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: That's the lower saddle connecting grand teton, middle teton.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Once you're up in the lower saddle you have some more unofficial climbers trails and social trails that take you up to the Black Dyke.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: I guess is where the climbing starts up again.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: That's where it gets a little bit more technical, and this route's just getting steeper and steeper as you're getting closer and closer to the summit of Grand Teton.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Um, and and, by the way, for anybody who's having trouble visualizing any of this, included in that post on grizzlies and avalanchescom that you alluded to at the beginning um, there are some fat map illustrations and some photos and some links to Wyoming whiskey, uh, a site that has extremely detailed markups of every portion of this route, so you can really piece it together yourself.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Um, so at that point we're between the lower saddle and the upper saddle.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: There's a mix of low, fifth class and a fourth class climbing to get you up to the upper saddle.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: The upper saddle is a saddle that connects the enclosure to the grand teton summit.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Um, at the upper saddle is where the owen spalding route begins, and that's just the least technical, uh, way to get up to the top of grand teton.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: The crux is an owen chimney.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: It's.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: It's five, four, um, all of the prior um runners.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Anybody who's trying to go fast bypasses that catwalk and then ends up having to go through this chimney and then you know the final summit climb.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: It's relatively easy climbing, but it's extremely exposed Right and it's northwest facing, so it's often covered with ice and snow.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: It really doesn't melt out until early to mid-July, depending on the snow year, and then every time a big thunderstorm or low pressure system comes into the Tetons, it's often covered with snow and ice again, and you need to wait a few days for it to melt out.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: There's a very narrow window for someone to move quickly over that type of terrain.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: You have to wait until mid-July at the earliest, and then typically there's a low pressure system in the beginning of September or sometimes even at the end of August.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: That'll shut down the route for the rest of the season, and if you're going up there, you have to be ready for ice snow.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Maybe you're using poles or crampons.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: In the same way, mountaineering objectives like the Grand Traverse get shut down in early September, unless you're willing to go in and treat it like a mixed one.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: So that's the route.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Like I said above Garnett Canyon, there are infinite variations that this thing can take, and part of the challenge is coming up with the most efficient path for you from lupine meadows to the summit and back.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: And in theory, there's nothing stopping someone from saying you know what?
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: I think I can climb upper Exum faster Right.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Um, instead of Owen Spalding.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: I don't think anybody could do that Right.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: There isn't enough overlap between the climbing community and the running community, there's something like that, and in practice everybody gravitates toward Owen Spalding.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: That's the fastest way up and down the mountain.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you this Is there any with these infinite routes above that?
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Is there any enforcement by the NPS on saying this is the established one?
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: You should be taking this.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: No, I mean so you can travel off trail in Grand Teton National Park and people constantly do right, that's what I get that Things like Grand Traverse, there is no trail right and for any of these summits there's no trail.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: There's no, there's no trail past a certain point to get up to T1A I'm not even sure T1A, the early portion of the trail is.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: I don't think even the early portion of the trail is official or maintained.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: So climbing throughout the park, backcountry access, a lot of it's off-trail.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: What the National Park Service can do is they can close specific areas, but they have to do certain things to properly close areas.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: One, they have to release a written explanation as to why an area is closed and why a lesser means isn't available to accomplish the same ends closed and why a lesser means isn't available to accomplish the same ends.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: And then there are public notice requirements, simple things like clear signage, publication in a newspaper, maps etc.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: You know other means like that.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: There isn't any one specific prescriptive approach, but the idea is something to provide clear public disclosure and make it clear that there are repercussions for going into a closed area.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: I think the best examples that are crystal clear are certain wildlife closures, and the National Park Service will actually put together maps and publish them in the compendium which is the, I guess, compilation of all National Park Service rules and regulations in Grand Teton.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: An example of that, for instance, would be some of the high elevation winter wildlife closures to protect big corn sheet populations and you know backcountry skiers are well aware that you know you don't go to the top of prospectors, for instance, for instance, right, right, um.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: So there are ways for them to be super clear about area closures.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: But in general you can go off-trailing grantee to national park and it's just ethically good to follow.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Leave no trace principles while you do so right, right, and a great example too.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: This is probably like I think, if I remember correctly in your write-up, delta lake, which is probably less than a mile from the climbers route that Mike took, highly trafficked, correct that area.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: I can't tell you how many people.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: I mean even people, by the way, at fastsnotimecom when, when they first heard that the national park service wasn't getting investigating Michelino for for taking a climbers trail between you know, the mouth of Vernon Canyon and the lower switchbacks, they said well, what about Delta Lake?
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah Right, so like to get to Delta Lake, which is the probably most Instagram famous spot in in Grand Teton National Park that I say easily, tens of thousands, tens of thousands of people go to each summer.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: You follow the same um amphitheater lake trail that Michelino and anybody going up to Garnett Canyon and to the high summits would take.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: And, uh, before you get to amphitheater lake but after um, you would make a left turn to go into dark Garnett Canyon.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: You'd make a right turn and start going entirely off trail.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: The national park service actually has a sign saying this is not a maintained trail, uh, and then warning people about the hazards that exist by continuing on.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: It's essentially the same terrain as this old climber's trail that Michelino took, but there's even more variability.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: I've come back that way only once.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Funny enough, I've only been to Delta Lake once, and it was on the way back from an attempt at Mount Owen.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: I've only been to Delta Lake once and it was on the way back from an attempt at Mount Owen, where we turned around at the after the East Prong and started descending back through the like two mile boulder field to get down to Delta Lake.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: It was a nightmare, and we kept getting lost on the way from Delta Lake back to the Apatheater Lake Trail because there's so many different climbers and hikers trails.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: I can see people just fanning out and ending up on a full number of variations to get up to Delta Lake.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: So, and any, uh, and, and that's just where I've had trouble wrapping my head around this full thing, and I should also say I mean in general, I'm I'm obviously a lover of national parks.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: I moved to Jackson because I love um, originally Yellowstone, Uh, I took multiple childhood family road trips.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: When I was a kid, visited Yellowstone and Grand Teton, I think three or four times, and then, you know, got distracted, as I imagine you did, with the work hustle Didn't make it out again until summer of 2020.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Worked in Yellowstone, though, for a summer during college and always in the back of my mind, had the idea of getting back out to the Tetons or to Jackson, um, ultimately, I think Grand Teton has stolen my heart.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Um, yellowstone used to be my favorite.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: With all the mountaineering stuff, grand Teton has become my favorite and, uh, I've found really positive interactions with the park service in person.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Um, I mean, climbing rangers are, uh, so important in keeping people safe up there.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: They're searching rest actually in the summer they put out advisories that me and everybody else I know pays attention to and they're, you know, really good people Interpretive rangers and visitor centers, trail maintenance crews we run into often when we're going up there.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: They're great.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: They do a lot of important work in keeping, you know, your average hiker safe moving in that terrain.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Uh, volunteers, you name it.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: Um, so, when, when all of this got stirred up, I was just a little bit confused, um, in thinking about the erosion or vegetation concerns on this old climbers trail and maybe we can talk a little bit more about that.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, I have trouble distinguishing that from something like Delta Lake or any one of a number other climbers trails or social trails in Grand Teton.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Right, in general, you can go off trail.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about from like I don't know.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: I do have an undergraduate geology degree, but I'm far from an expert.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: When it comes to erosion and geomorphology, sure, but from an erosion standpoint, if there's an established trail, okay, all right, let's back this up a little bit.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: The first question I have for you, because you made a very astute observation that when the National Park Service and this is like I said, this is not a got you of the National Park Service- I'm a big fan of the NPS.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: I think they're great people, they're doing amazing things.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: But I do have a question.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: They have the highest approval rating of any federal agency.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: They're like, yeah, they're amazing.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: So but let me ask you this with the climbers route quote unquote being closed in any of your research Cause I couldn't find much of it in mine when did they do the proper, take the proper precautions to um, to close that?
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Did they talk?
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Did they put that out there?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Did they put out a press release?
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Did they, did they say, was any like anything done according to the checklist for that route to be closed?
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: So I I haven't the, I guess first part is a written determination and then an explanation as to why a lesser means isn't available to accomplish the same objective.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen that, not to say it's not, you know, available in the archive?
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: I'd frankly be very curious to see it because I'm searching for explanations as well as to why they're coming down so hard on Nicolino In terms of public notice.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: What they did is they put very small signs at the beginning or at the bottom and the top of the old climbers trail, um, small signs next to the trail, not in front of the trail.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: The sign at the top says, uh, cutting causes erosion.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: The sign at the bottom says closed for revegetation.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Um, the one at the bottom is kind of hidden behind a pine tree.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: You know, unless you actually like, go in there and, frankly, like I didn't know there was an old climbers trail until, I think, this summer, because I'm not a mountain runner and I'm not trying to go for speed and look for an optimal route, I'm just following the path of least resistance to the summit and back.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: So you wouldn't really notice it if you were just following the official trail from the bottom.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: I don't admit, maybe it's in the corner of your eye, but I don't think you'd really catch it.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Um, from the top uh, putting causes erosion.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: It's next to what appears to be a well-traveled trail.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Um, I think it'd be reasonable for a passerby to interpret that as well.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: I need to stay on one of these two trails, but I I think you could, you know come to different conclusions, like I guess.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: What I would have expected if there were a an absolute and legally enforceable closure is a sign in front of it, maybe even a log that says close.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Do not enter something really straightforward, right.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: National park service makes a lot of suggestions that aren't necessarily regulations.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, so and it's interesting you say that because so, for instance, I live in the front range in Colorado, more specifically Colorado Springs, manitou Springs area when we close trails not that we close a bunch of them, because it's kind of a free for all, but when we close trails, like you said, you're putting a log on, you're covering it with existing deadfall or vegetation specifically to, I guess, nudge the passerby not to go on that trail.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: If you will.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Whereas and I would.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: I would kind of nudge the audience as well to kind of go, like I said, check out your sub stack.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: There's clear, defined photos of what it looks like at the climbers trail from the top and the bottom, and you can very clearly see, especially on the bottom one, where it's kind of hidden, where it says this trail is closed, and then at the top, where it's more just a suggestion, rather than this trail is closed because it just says cutting causes erosion, and yeah, it's just.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: It's odd to me because it kind of it's a very big gray area.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: It's a it kind of it's a very big gray area, you know, especially give.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: It's a little bit confusing, I think.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Beyond just the signage that's there, six of seven prior speed records also took this old climbers trail.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Granted, a number of those are going back to the like 1980s, and closures, trail construction, trail maintenance obviously change over time, but speed record as recently as 2022?
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, technically, climbers trail was accepted by fast snow timecom it was the woman's unsupported time um, national park service didn't do anything.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Fast snow time accepted the record.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Um, so I like the lack of enforcement and, and if you look at strava, there's a trail segment, or this specific old climbers trail, as I keep calling it, that has, at least I think, 58, somewhere between somewhere around 60 other people who've posted public stravas on this trail segment.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Um, so so, given the consistency of use by people going fast and trying to race either prior record holders or, more realistically, just themselves and establish their best time on the grounds and a lack of National Park Service enforcement, I think that's the other thing that introduces the gray area, beyond just the limited signage.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: If nothing's being enforced here, is this a legal closure or just a suggestion to try and keep hikers from using it because it's a little bit more technical than the well-maintained trail.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, so I think that's a reasonable takeaway as well.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: The national park service doesn't want everybody using this thing, because then they have to go up and, you know, rescue people who are um, you know, holding a nalgene, you know, and in bands, and maybe visiting around Teton for the first time and looking to go up to Delta Lake or maybe even just up to amphitheater, and they don't want to take them taking more technical trails than they need to be taking.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's not a reasonable interpretation.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: It just didn't seem like it.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: No, no, I guess none of us were accepting or expecting criminal charges and investigation anything like that.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: I think the best evidence of that is Mick Lino, in detail, wrote about him taking the old climber's trail and his Strava race report, which isn't the behavior of someone who expects legal action.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Well, 100%, and that's kind of this, and I think you feel the same way.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: You definitely feel the same way as I do.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: This is, and I talked to Mike I don't know I had him on the podcast maybe cause we raced at a Cirque series, grand Targhee.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: I was out there um a couple, like maybe two weeks or a week, before his attempt, so I knew it was coming and I had an idea um cause he told me after the podcast, do how did I do with that race?
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was not my best one, but it was good it wasn't.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: It wasn't michaelino's either, I think he uh got stitched.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he had a tough.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: He had a tough day too.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Uh, he whooped my ass, but I was pretty good, happy with my result.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Uh, broken leg and he whooped my ass.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Dude, that's a fast course too.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Beautiful, so beautiful, yeah so, but, this is.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: This is what confused me, because after the fact he was very transparent, yeah, and yet people acted like he cut a switch back and then kicked a grizzly bear on his way down and then poached three goats, like I just don't understand, like why there was such and like I even have it like written on my binder right here why now and why, mike?
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Like why was there such an and then and also why charges like that?
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: That's another thing.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: I know you said you had to have a legal background.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: I I don't, um, but even like so I even looked up the stacitation, the 36 cfr 2.1b, where he was basically charged with potentially six months, uh, or $5,000 fine, and all these different things, and it's very vague.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, at least to me at least states that the superintendent may restrict hiking or pedestrian use to a designated trail or walkway system.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Leaving a trail or walkway to shortcut between portions of the trail of the same trail or walkway or to a shortcut to an adjacent trail or walkway in violation of designated restrictions is prohibited, which that I guess you could say it's straightforward.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: But also when there's so much gray area as to whether this is actually closed or not, and given so many people, people doing it and taking that route, like why are we enforcing it against him?
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: I guess that's why I was scratching my head, you know.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean even to back things up in terms of community response.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: I don't think many people were outraged, I think it was a.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: There are a handful of people who are particularly critical and, as is typically the case, you know, squeaky wheel gets the grease right.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: Those who are most critical are the ones who are most inclined to provide quotes.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Squeaky wheel gets the grease right.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Those who are most critical are the ones who are most inclined to provide quotes and those who are affiliated.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: In the case of, you know, me and Connor and Nicolino, as soon as the National Park Service started threatening investigation, we weren't providing quotes to media and so our side of the story didn't get told.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: And then, I think, those early critical quotes started compounding.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: You know, yes, right, just like private equity returns, right.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: They started spiraling and and reporters started recycling information from those same quotes, which isn't right.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: Any malintent by those reporters, it's just the information that was available to them, and I've since spent a lot of time on different forums, right, that are populated by people in the community, and the vast majority of people are also scratching their heads.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Like you and I are wondering why the national park service is coming down so heavy on Michelino for an old climbers trail that pretty much everybody who's been in the mountain mountaineering community for a while knows at least someone who's who's taken right.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Um, people who went, you know, for the ranch traverse speed record back in the day in some instances have taken, in some instances haven't.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Like I said, six out of seven people went to the grand teton speed record have taken it.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: By the way, I'm not going to name anybody, but a number of people who provided critical quotes have also taken it a hundred percent yeah um, it's this, this is it operation?
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: yeah, like it and it's it's not like.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: And I think a lot of this came down to also unfortunate language choice by michelino and he's writing a strip report, in part because he wasn't anticipating any backlash or controversy.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: I think he was anticipating a stylistic debate, yeah, maybe amongst other fkt um pursuers, but uh, he, the, the.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: The phrasing cut the switchbacks is not representative of what he did exactly and I think was extremely unfortunate language choice.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Cutting the switchbacks evokes imagery of someone running down a switchback, seeing the lower trail segment approaching and then not completing the trail and instead running down the hill to get to the lower trail segment approaching and then not completing the trail and instead running down the hill to get to the lower switchback a little bit faster, which, by the way, is extremely common as well amongst fkt pursuits yeah yeah, um, I was just listening to a podcast where someone was explicitly talking through their strategy around cutting switchbacks in certain very notes.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: you know it's not uncommon in and of itself, but he didn't do it on those lower switchbacks.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: What he did is he bypassed one switchback entirely by taking an alternative climber's trail that is hard packed Right, like he wasn't stopping on delicate vegetation, he wasn't running on talus.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: That's causing the entire slope to slide.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: That's causing the entire slope to slide.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: I, I, I have trouble under like I have trouble figuring out what the erosion or vegetation impact is at all of the occasional runner passing through that trail, as long as you don't have all of instagram going there, but because, as you know, they're all going to delta lake off trail that's true I would say I guess maybe the reason the national park service never bothered to put in better signage is the best signage you could possibly have is the diversion of Delta Lake Right, everybody's going to Delta Lake.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: They're not going into Garnet Canyon via the Salt Climbers Trail, not when there's an easier alternative available.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: So maybe that's how I'd frame it Like one.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: I think the community response the vast, vast majority of people I've spoken to are congratulatory of McMolino and they are congratulatory of McAleenan and they feel bad that this has mushroomed into something so far beyond what it should be.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: And then the media reports.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: I mean aggressive headlines, sell papers right, and unfortunately, I think the most critical voices were amplified because they're the only ones who were speaking to media in the beginning stages of this, which is why I felt so motivated to lay out all the facts in my article.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: I just support McAleenino's been through the ring around this one and I think very um, uh, unfortunately so, so I wanted to lay out the facts and provide an insider's perspective.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Um, that, I think, paint a very different story and we should be clear that, like this is specifically fast, fact-based, anything that is opinion does not represent anything of Michaelino's opinion.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely I'm not representing.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: Michaelino at all.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Same same.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not speaking to media.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Anything I say is entirely on me.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: After someone come after me, not Michaelino.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: Michaelino has nothing to do with this.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Exactly, Exactly.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: And that's why I just felt like I felt very compelled, given the circumstances and knowing the circumstances of the FKT, because I feel very personally about it, that this should have been celebrated as one of the greatest feats of mountaineering in not just Wyoming history but arguably in the United States this year um, you know, possibly ever, given that just how difficult that peak is.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it insane.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it just wasn't.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Records.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: I mean before Michelino got it, the record stood for 12 years yeah, number 2012,.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Andy and Killian first shattered, within 10 days of each other the record that had previously then stood for 29 years by Bryce Thatcher, of three hours and six minutes.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: So it's yeah, it's a record that doesn't get broken often because it's such a hard route, and Michelino's been training on this thing for four years.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: He moved to the Tetons four years ago and the second he laid eyes upon the Grand.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: As he tells the story, I'm not speaking for him.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: I'm just, you know, speaking to what he's told me and to what I've seen in interviews of him.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: And I think, even when you had him on.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: I think he was talking a little bit oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can see the light in his eyes yeah, yeah, listen to that episode.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Um, he, he immediately wanted to go for that thing, but he realized he'd have to put like blood, sweat and tears into it to make it even a realistic possibility.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: It's such a stout time, um, and it's such challenging terrain.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, I I have trouble imagining someone moving from the summit to the lower saddle in 15 minutes.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: It's incredibly technical.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: The night before Michelinos FKT, I was up there for sunset, right, like as is pretty typical for FKTs like this, you usually have people going up a handful of days in advance to tell you how much ice is on the round.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Maybe send back some pictures that you don't accidentally slip on burglars and fall to your death, right?
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, the consequences are high of running a race like this, so you're collecting beta from parties who were up there in advance.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: And I went up there the day before at sunset and, you know, worked my way down, ranted in the dark, from the summit to the lower saddle, but I think it took me like an hour and I was just dead.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: I've never made it down in, you know, less than like 35, like I have like 40 minutes.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: It probably took me like an hour and a half.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Honestly, um, me and connor, when we were going back down after michelino raced out past us the day of the fkt, we got news that he broke the record when we had just gotten to the lower saddle.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Oh my god right, he was already back in the parking lot by the time we got our shit together and got down to the lower saddle.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: That's so crazy, it's mind-blowing.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Like anybody who's been up in that terrain, I think, is blown away at.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: We've spoken to a few, um very prominent mountaineers who've gone off and done some, you know, groundbreaking stuff in Himalayas climb all seven summits, shit like that, and when you distill it to that you have to run from the summit to the lower saddle in 15 minutes.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: They're like facial expression changes.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, are you kidding me?
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was just mind-blowing, absolutely mind-blowing, and that's the thing I only like.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: I think what upset me the most, outside of just knowing mike as a friend and like as a good dude, was just like.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: It's just like what it could have done for his career in the positive light.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: You know what it should have done you know I'm still optimistic, yeah yeah, well, that's actually what I was trying to get to.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: so one of the things I do want to break into and talk about is kind of the chain of events like, and how this unfolded, like how the NPS caught word of it because FKT had reached out to them after he submitted the FKT.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: Can we, can we talk about that a little bit?
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe I can walk you through the whole timeline.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: So I think I've already mentioned, you know, and 24 hours leading up to this thing, Me and Connor, on the day of the FKT attempt, finally made our way back to the parking area and Mick Galeno, being the sweetheart he was, was still sitting there waiting for us.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: You know, first thing he did was give us a big hug.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: Like everybody was excited and relieved.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: I think we all expected that there'd probably be a critical voice or two who would argue that he should have ran the same route as the prior record holder, Andy Anderson in part because I think he was a park ranger and maybe particularly sensitive toward what the park service frowns upon and doesn't frown upon decided to run the full official trail as opposed to taking the climbers trail.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: But in conversations with Michelino and he even went up and scouted Grand Teton with Michelino this summer and the you know events leading up to Michelino's attempts um deferred the decision to him and said he'd support it either way.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Right, you know, it's not like Andy Anderson endorsed taking it, but he, um, he said it's.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: It's up to you, it's your decision, it's your call.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Um, from what Mike and what Michelino has told me and from conversations that I've heard between Michelino and Andy.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: And that was, I think, the final linchpin for Michelino as he was thinking through that stylistic choice Should he take the old climber's trail or should he perfectly match Andy Anderson's route on the lower part of the mountain and he decided to revert back to the prior history of the speed record attempt Jock, Braden, Rice and Kill and killian right, not to mention the women's record holders like emily and janet wait, wait, hold on one second.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: So jack, I didn't check, jack's, I actually jack did not take the old climbers trail.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: He wanted to match andy anderson's exact route, and I don't want to speak for jack either.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I wasn't even well versed.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: It didn't even come up in conversation.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know, between like me and jack, or me connor and jack, uh, to my, to my recollection, in summer 2023 okay, no, sorry, I was just also though by the time that jack got down to those lower switchbacks, he knew he wasn't getting a record and he was just trying to you know, nail a good time.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: So he was so, so, so let's caveat it with that as well.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, um, he ran an incredibly fast time, but he knew by the time that he was getting out of burnett that he was just trying to finish and try and get as close to three as possible, maybe break three, but he wasn't going to hit 253 or less gotcha, um, so, yeah, so maybe a little more context there around andy and that old climbers trail.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Um, and tying back to where I was, me and connor gives the trailhead, mick leno gives us a hug.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: I think we all expect a bit of a stylistic debate, but especially after mick leno and andy spoke, um, they had a conversation maybe an hour after we all got back to the trailhead, the first thing we did is we drove down to the snake river by dornans, we jumped in for a cold plunge in a you know pbr, a few ciders, uh, to celebrate it.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Like the mood was jovial, like we're all, we're all in good spirits, we, we, especially after hearing andy congratulate michelino, with full knowledge they took the old climbers trail.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we thought, okay, that's the end of the stylistic thing, right, if the history of this route is taking the old climbers trail and if the most recent guy who didn't says fine, you're, you still have it in my books and I'm going to sign over my belt buckle to you, which andy did in this case.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: The belt buckle is a series created for a handful of iconic routes, the grand teton included.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: Uh, later that week, mick leno was out in california and andy signed over his belt buckle to me.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Um, so, so we were all optimistic.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: Mick leno gathered his GPX file, he wrote up his Strava race report and he submitted everything to FastSnowTimecom.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: We expected a approval by the weekend.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: I turned my attention to Elk Night, which is a little party series that I've been running, cooking different elk dishes for friends from an elk that I killed back in 2021.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Or, I'm sorry, 2022.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: And that took up all my time for the rest of the week.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: All of a sudden comes Sunday, or, I think, maybe Saturday, we start getting news that FKAT is asking questions about the old climbers trail.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: At least one person sent them an email calling it out Don't know who it was and because of that, the regional editor.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: Editor.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: These are all unpaid volunteers who, you know, also do great work and, I imagine, have a lot of stuff like this to deal with, because fkt is, by definition, are rare areas right.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: It comes down to community acceptance of a given route and a given record.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: Um, they reached out to the park service park service, I think someone at jenny lake primer um, uh, the climbing station, got back to them saying actually that trail is closed and we intend to pursue an investigation and potentially criminal charges.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: I think, unfortunately, there was probably a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, amongst whichever ranger happened to pick this up.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: And because of that, the second you start mentioning investigation or criminal charges, nobody's going to take that on right.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: The fastestnowtimecom immediately dropped it and rejected the FKT Because they're not.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: You know, there's not much of an incentive for them to go head to head with the park service and start defending a record that they weren't a party to Right.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: It's not like they're going to engage in a back and forth about the community history and is this actually legally closed?
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: They're just going to say, ok, park service says it's closed, we're done.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't want any part of that, yeah.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: And then a bunch of press broke and I think Michelino ultimately heard from the park service toward the end of September September 25th not until then or somewhere around then 25th, 26th and they issued a violation notice with a court date next week I think and that's that's more or less the extent of what's happened.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: We haven't been speaking to media, but the reports have kept coming out.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: There have been like three waves of reports One when FKT rejected, another when the Park Service started investigating, and then a third when media found out that they had formally charged Nicolino for taking this old climber's drill.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: So I think that's a pretty comprehensive synopsis of the timeline, at least as it relates to what the park service has done.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: So I think the big question here then and obviously I don't even know if you can answer this, this might be just opinion and, like I said, I really like the NPS.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: This is not poking the bear.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: They do a lot of great work and they're dealing with a lot, right?
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, the park service is increasingly crowded, you know, and we've always used conflict right.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Different users of the park service want different things opened, closed so it's hard to win in some ways, you know.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you a quick question, actually, before I go off on a tangent with, like, the NPS, when Andy Anderson signed over.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: So this is the question then Andy Anderson signed over the bell buckle, did Michelino give it back to him after it was rejected, or did he keep it?
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: You know, I've never asked him.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: I don't think he asked.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: So that's the and there's the weird part.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is like we're separating the legal aspect of it to the actual like okay, because I still recognize it as the FKT.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: I do too, and I think most people do I think most people do too, and given that Andy Anderson full on gave him like a, what I'm trying to say is saying get it as that.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Fkt is essentially just a.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: It's a database, it's a website that ratifies these records right.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Just because they say it's a fastest known time doesn't necessarily mean yay or nay, whether or not it's a fastest known time.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: You know, that's kind of what I was getting at there um they try and represent the community as best they can and they have their own lines.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: They're a corporation at the end of the day, right, they're owned by outside inc.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: Outside inc has a bunch of different business interests, um, so they're.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: They have other priorities in addition to making sure that they're accurately reflecting the community's consensus with respect to speed record.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: If the National Park Service is threatening charges, they're going to back off, even if I'd say, the community consensus is that the speed record now belongs to McEwen.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Now, that said, I think there's a middle ground approach that's available here.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: It requires more effort and so, of course, it's not the one that they would jump to.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: I think the criminal charges didn't need to be filed.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Maybe they could still be dropped, maybe they'll be dismissed.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: We'll see.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: I don't want to you know project what's likely to happen in district Gordon in in uh, in Teton County, wyoming, um, I think that, acknowledging the fastest known time and, by the way, I guess one piece that I left out of that timeline is they went ahead and flagged a bunch of records after Michelino ran this route, not before, a week after they first flagged, uh, killian's time, then they flagged gents, or I should say they first flagged Jen's time, then they flagged, uh, killian's time, then they flagged jen's.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Or I should say they first flagged jen's time, then they flagged killian's time, then they flagged emily's time.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: They still haven't flagged bryce's time because it was in the 1980s.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: But bryce also took the old climbers trail and they also added and this is all detailed in brisleys and avalanches on in that blog post they added a warning saying you can't take the old climbers trail.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: National Park Service intends to, you know, possibly like pursue criminal charges.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: None of that was there beforehand, right, right.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: So they didn't provide any guidance.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: The history in the community is to take that old climbers trail.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: I think it's perfectly acceptable to National Park Service, as the authority to close things, to say we will not accept records for that climbers trail going forward.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: Let's split the route.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Old route, new route, old route has everybody except for Andy, ending at Michelino, and then people can continue to race Andy's time, including Michelino, right, like Michelino intends to race this thing, I think, once the summer going forward.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: So he'll probably come back and go for this thing again, taking the Andy variation, if you want to call it that, and that can be a different route.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: On the Grand Teton page.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: The Grand Teton page is much simpler than most other big iconic summits in the US.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: If you look at the Rainier page, the Whitney page, there are multiple different routes.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, the Grand Teton page doesn't even have the ski FKT which is, I think, five hours, 30 minutes or something like that.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: I think jack posted a comment, um on the page with some of the history of the ski fkts, so I think that would be pretty easy to do without making it seem like fastest known time is endorsing going against the park service, right like at the time we didn't provide guidance, it wasn't clear that this was legally closed.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Let's give michelino and everybody else a legitimate fkt taking that old climbers trail and let's close it off clearly, make it clear we're not going to accept future submissions and everybody else go ahead and race the, the andy anderson version of this going forward.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, I think that would be like a great coming together for the community.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: I think that would be the best.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, stop with the charges and and here's what the park service can do too block map, big clear sign in the middle of the trail that says don't take this going forward or we will criminally prosecute you, right?
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like making crystal clear that it's not a suggestion, it's, um, uh, a concrete legal closure.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: Right, and everybody wins.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: It's more cost effective, there's no time in court.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: We don't, you know, like the federal government doesn't have to pay for an assistant US attorney to pursue charges against a runner, the spokesperson for the park doesn't need to, you know, provide piecemeal quotes to media saying the maximum penalty is $5,000 and six months in jail.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: I think there's an opportunity to really pull all of this back in and land on a more reasonable outcome that represents, I think, the community consensus and the history of this route.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: I agree and dude.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: The other thing too is Mike is such a great ambassador for our sport and such a great ambassador for the Tetons.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: It's such a I don't know to me.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: I think it's just a missed opportunity and it's kind of sad that everybody can't work together because he's I don't know, he's got a big following.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: He's a great person.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: Like I said, he's an amazing ambassador for our sport.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: So why not try to paint a positive light on it, use it as a learning experience and try to move on from it?
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: Because it's not like he's going anywhere.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: He'll be around.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: He's going to be like you said.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: He's going anywhere, he'll be around.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: He's going to be like you said.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: He's going to.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: Like we all know for a fact, he's going to go for this again next year probably.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, so I don't know.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: I think that there's just a lot of opportunities and, like you said, the same thing with FKT um, which, in circumstance is certain circumstances.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: They've done things similar to this, like with uh, the best example would be Aaron Tan um with the Colorado 14ers.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: So she omitted a certain peak that she didn't want to, that she didn't wind up doing, and with a little back and forth and a lot of public opinion, she was actually able to get them to create basically an additional FKT route, that's on the Colorado 14ers.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: That was just for public lands only.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: By passing that private Right.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: And, by the way, I think, one, one distinguishing fact that would make this an even better case for it.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: I think she was less forthright initially about that bypass than Michelino was.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: I've like loosely followed that Michelino was super forthright from the beginning, that he took the climbers drill.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Um, and I guess I think also unlike that case, six of seven prior speed records took the exact same trail right.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: So, consistent with history, he was transparent and open about it.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: Um, it's even, I think, more of a slam dunk and and clear application than in that case yeah, I think yeah, you're 100 right and I I don't know where the nuances are between the two in a lot of ways, like why I mean some of the effort, all of this more effort and time.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: right, and, as I mentioned, regional editors are volunteers.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: They have a lot of work.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: They're not paid to do this, um, so it's it's more effort for them, it's more time and I I appreciate that they're not being paid.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: Right and yeah people don't want any incentives there and the media hasn't been good on this one, unfortunately no no, it's a, it's a, it's a bummer and that's why, like dude, that was a lot of.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: The reason why I wanted to talk to you was because I just really felt very strongly and I am transparent with this like Michelino is a friend, but I just felt also as a professional mountain runner in the sport.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: This was not a very fair assessment, if you will, and his story needed to be told correctly.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, and I'm not disputing that there is a stylistic debate around.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: Should you race the same route as the guy immediately before you?
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: My personal opinion is with these mountain fkt is is who can get from point a to point b the fastest?
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, part of the challenge is finding your most efficient path up and down the mountain.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, and nobody takes the same route toward the top right like broad brush.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: They're following roughly the same route, but there are infinite little variations.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Do you go through this chimney?
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: Do you take this, this slab?
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: Where are the handholds?
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: So my personal opinion is it's whoever can get from point A to point B the fastest.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: And if there's an obvious, well-rationaled closure, ethics say you shouldn't go through it.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: I don't think that this old climber's trail has met that hurdle.
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: That's my opinion.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Other people have different opinions and come to different conclusions based on the facts.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: I try to, as best as I could, just stick to the facts in that article that we keep referencing, that I encourage people to go and take a look at, because images markups, you name it it's like 4,000 words.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: I really tried to lay this out in comprehensive detail for Michelino's sake.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: So that's my opinion.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: I appreciate people, people come, different opinions.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: I think a very reasonable um spot to land is split the route, the andy anderson route, the traditional route, give it to mcclellan, make it clear you're not going to accept future submissions.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: Let's drop these charges and come to some type of a reasonable civil compromise.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: But you know, don't want to speak to what the court's going to do or what the assistant US attorney wants to do.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: And that's a reasonable landing point, right Like the most Michelino favorable approach would be just put his time on the route without splitting it.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: And I'll concede to a split as I think a compromise between the people who don't think it should be accepted at all and I think what the community consensus is.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah no, I agree my opinion.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, is there anything we?
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: missed?
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: I don't think so.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess where I'd want to leave it is.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: This is an incredibly iconic, challenging route.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: The time is super fast, which is why it stood for, you know, 29 years before 2012.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: And then 12 years from 2012 to 2024, when Mickalene ultimately ran it.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: His race from the summit to the lower saddle was particularly mind blowing.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: I think he's one of, if not the fastest, I think one of two or three fastest people to ever run from the summit down to the lower saddle.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: I think some rock climbers, um, some of the maybe Grand Teton Traverse speed records have probably been close, so I just think it's an incredible record amount.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: That's really special to me.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: In my mind, michelino holds the FKT and I just hope that we can get to a more reasonable place between FastSnowTimecom and these National Park Service charges.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: National Park Service does a lot of good, important work and I think this is not a great use of their time.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: I think that some signs and offense will accomplish the same ends without continuing to waste taxpayer money on legal stuff.
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: So that's where I would leave it, I think.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: Incredible effort by Michelino.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: He's the FKT holder in my opinion, and I'm looking forward to embracing it even faster next summer.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, same.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to see him smash it next year.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: Well, dude, alex, thank you so much.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: I genuinely appreciate you taking the time out of your day to sit with me and um help tell this this story, and um, I, I a hundred percent agree and um I hope we can definitely shine some more light on this and hopefully more can be done for Michelino.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, perfect.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: Really appreciate it, thank you so much.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: What'd you guys think I told you?
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: This was a cool episode.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: Lots of really good tidbits of information, lots of just information in general.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: Like I said, alex and I did our best to stick to the facts and give you the most factual information regarding the record attempt itself, or I should say the record itself, as well as the information surrounding the climber's route, what the NPS did in regards to closing that trail, a lot of gray area there, as well as the steps that were taken by fastest known time Just kind of.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: Just kind of paint you a picture and give you an understanding of what actually took place.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: That, I think, was probably and this is nothing against the articles that were written but I just don't think there was a proper representation of what truly took place.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: So I genuinely want to thank from the bottom of my heart Alex so much for coming on the podcast to tell the story and be able to just paint a picture of what took place.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: So thanks so much, alex.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: Guys, let's wrap this up If you get some time.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: The whole basis of this conversation was around Alex's sub stack, which was called Grizzlies and Avalanches.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: You're going to be able to access that.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: It's going to be in the show notes and it's also going to be in the bio.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: So the link tree bio that's in the Instagram for the Steep Stuff podcast so you can access that pretty easily.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Toggle on over to that, give it a read, take the time, understand it, educate yourself and learn more about what actually took place.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: In addition, if you happen to be on Instagram, give Alex a follow.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: Alex Rienzi.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: He's going to be tagged in this post as well regarding this episode, and also want to thank so much for the support from Connor Berksmith.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Connor was kind enough to provide some of the photography and the imagery that's going to be in the post for this episode as well, as he and Alex had worked together on this project for Michelino for the FKT conversation.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: In my opinions, as well as Alex's opinions, in no way reflect the opinions of Michelino and Sari.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: Like I said, the idea and the plan behind this episode was just to tell Michelino's story on this Grand Teton FKT.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: Very last but not least, I guess the goal of this as well would be well, I'm not really sure if that's possible to happen would be to hopefully influence fastest known time to possibly reconsider reinstating Michelino's fastest known time, given the circumstances and what the outfall will be following his NPS hearing.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Guys, I really appreciate your time.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate you listening to this and giving your support behind this podcast.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: If you did enjoy this episode, please give us a five-star rating and review on Spotify or Apple.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: This episode will also be available in YouTube later down the road in the next couple of weeks.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: Hope you guys have a great rest of your week.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Take care, thank you.