Latest / The You Project / #2170 What AI Can't Do - Bobby Cappuccio

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#2170 What AI Can't Do - Bobby Cappuccio · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's Harps, it's Bobby, It's Robert James, Kevin,
0:04
Speaker 1: Patrick Capucco over there on the other side of the world.
0:07
Speaker 1: It's me on this side of the world. Now, depending
0:09
Speaker 1: where you are situated, I could be on the other
0:12
Speaker 1: side of the world for you, or vice versa. Hi, Bobby,
0:16
Speaker 1: how are you.
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Speaker 2: Doing all right? Happy to be here. I'd been looking
0:20
Speaker 2: forward to this conversation.
0:22
Speaker 1: Good. Good, So I've been told that you and I
0:28
Speaker 1: sometimes can have a version of the same conversation or
0:34
Speaker 1: sections thereof, and I went, yeah, maybe, but we do
0:38
Speaker 1: do a similar job than we did, But I hope
0:41
Speaker 1: it's not ons that dementtra Yeah, what if we didn't? Yeah,
0:45
Speaker 1: what numbers? This number three, isn't it? No? Number three hundred?
0:49
Speaker 1: I thought we might talk today about off the back
0:54
Speaker 1: of the seems to be ever evolving panics about how
1:01
Speaker 1: AI is going to make all of us redundant and
1:05
Speaker 1: we'll all be sad, and we'll all be, you know, jobless,
1:09
Speaker 1: and we'll have it will have to become a what
1:13
Speaker 1: do they call it where everyone gets the same amount
1:15
Speaker 1: of money? What is it? Socialism? Is it where everyone
1:19
Speaker 1: gets just paid? You know that that that so not
1:23
Speaker 1: a democracy. It's not common.
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Speaker 2: Everybody gets the same amount of money. But yeah, that
1:27
Speaker 2: would be that would be more socialism structure.
1:30
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, but I've been having a chat about this
1:34
Speaker 1: with a few people lately, and I thought, now, this
1:37
Speaker 1: is just a conversation. This is not advice, this is
1:39
Speaker 1: not experts predicting anything. But anyway, I was talking to
1:46
Speaker 1: you about before we started, about the emotional stuff, like
1:52
Speaker 1: the emotional stuff, the connection stuff, the love stuff, to
1:57
Speaker 1: what extent, to what extent an AI can provide that,
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Speaker 1: if at all for a human. Then what I was
2:10
Speaker 1: thinking is the you know, when when you were interacting
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Speaker 1: with something and in this case an AI, an agent,
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Speaker 1: and you kind of like, I don't think you forget
2:25
Speaker 1: you're talking to a robot, but I think after a
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Speaker 1: lot of conversation, there can become a familiarity and a
2:33
Speaker 1: sense of knowing this. I think you lose context, or
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Speaker 1: you can lose context that this is purely a machine.
2:41
Speaker 1: This is purely this is purely you know, dashes and
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Speaker 1: dots and ones and zeros. That's analyzing me and predicting
2:48
Speaker 1: me and talking to me the way talking in inverted
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Speaker 1: comm is the way that it knows that I like
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Speaker 1: to be communicated with, and so you know, it's basically
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Speaker 1: a prediction machine, among other things. So what was your
3:02
Speaker 1: little experiment you did the other day with your fine
3:05
Speaker 1: where you are?
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Speaker 2: I was in a technology meeting. We were talking about AI.
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Speaker 2: So I got curious after the meeting, so I went
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Speaker 2: in and I asked.
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Speaker 1: AI pull up.
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Speaker 2: All of the credible research and trends that you can find,
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Speaker 2: all the information out there, and based on the current
3:31
Speaker 2: trajectory and evolution of AI right now, which three types
3:38
Speaker 2: of jobs are most likely at risk within the next
3:42
Speaker 2: few years, and which job functions, if any, might become
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Speaker 2: even more valuable as a result of the expansion of
3:52
Speaker 2: AI in the next few years. And it was kind
3:54
Speaker 2: of interesting what it came back with. So the jobs
3:59
Speaker 2: that are like this is not me saying this, This
4:02
Speaker 2: is AI saying this about itself.
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Speaker 1: Also, also, just to prediction doesn't mean this is the future.
4:08
Speaker 1: But who knows?
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Speaker 2: Yeh, no needs to buy it. But this is just
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Speaker 2: basically everything all the conversations have pulled up, all the
4:16
Speaker 2: research are pulled up, gave to this conclusion that the
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Speaker 2: three job roles that are most likely to be heavily
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Speaker 2: replaced or radically reduced by AI in the next five
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Speaker 2: years are number one, I'll just give the cliff notes,
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Speaker 2: administrative and repetitive knowledge work. Two formulaic content production, and
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Speaker 2: it went into what it means by this underreach and
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Speaker 2: three basic analytical and middle layer processing roles. The three
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Speaker 2: areas that are likely to become dramatically more valuable are
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Speaker 2: number one human communication and relationship intelligence too, strategic thinking
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Speaker 2: and judgment under uncertainty. Three creativity storytelling and innovation, not
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Speaker 2: content creation per se. Actual creativity. People who can synthesize ideas,
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Speaker 2: tell meaningful stories, connect emotionally, create vision, and invest in
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Speaker 2: new approaches or AI remixes patterns. Human beings still drive meaning,
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Speaker 2: culture and direction. And then it went through how trust, adaptability, culture, innovation, leadership,
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Speaker 2: decision quality, and human connection are indispensable skill sets to
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Speaker 2: develop for any measure of job security in the near future.
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Speaker 1: Interesting, Yeah, I like it. Well, I I can't. I
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Speaker 1: can't reach over and give you a hug or hold
5:42
Speaker 1: your hand, or I mean, I guess some can. But
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Speaker 1: what we're talking what we're talking about, cloda, I'm talking
5:50
Speaker 1: about I'm not talking about sex bots. You weirdies. I'm
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Speaker 1: just talking about, Yeah, all the all the regular II
5:57
Speaker 1: we've got at the moment, in the way that we
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Speaker 1: use it. I think there's always going to be like
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Speaker 1: the stuff that I'm going through with my dad at
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Speaker 1: the minute. Particularly, I'm thinking a robot couldn't do this,
6:11
Speaker 1: because it could do bits of it, I guess, But
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Speaker 1: there are so many confounding, conflicting, intersecting variables around money
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Speaker 1: and practicality and the government's the age care system in Australia,
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Speaker 1: and Mum's emotions and Dad's emotions and feelings and fears
6:33
Speaker 1: and anxiety and dealing with the unknown and uncertainty and
6:38
Speaker 1: knowing what to say when because you can say the
6:41
Speaker 1: right thing at the wrong time and you fuck up,
6:44
Speaker 1: or you can say the wrong thing at the right
6:47
Speaker 1: time and it goes unnoticed, you know. So it because
6:51
Speaker 1: with this very dynamic thing, and it's not just what
6:55
Speaker 1: I'm going through with my parents, but it's everyone all
6:58
Speaker 1: the time. It's every business meeting that you sit in.
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Speaker 1: You've got eight personalities, Well fucking good luck trying to
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Speaker 1: navigate that with one hundred percent certainty and proficiency. So
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Speaker 1: I think there's that in the moment emotional, social, situational
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Speaker 1: intelligence and perception that you need to then act on
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Speaker 1: like AI is never going to do that.
7:26
Speaker 2: Now, really bring that into focus. I was talking to
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Speaker 2: my friend John, you might know him, but anyway, I
7:33
Speaker 2: was talking to him about a week ago, and he
7:36
Speaker 2: just taught his dog how to swim, and he said
7:38
Speaker 2: that experience framed for him the value of a human
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Speaker 2: being versus AI and what the distinction is. So, how
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Speaker 2: in the world, with all of its intelligence and capability,
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Speaker 2: is an AI going to teach a frightened dog how
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Speaker 2: to swim? And I thought, wow, you know how that's
7:54
Speaker 2: not much different. I mean except four lakes for us too.
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Speaker 2: I think there are obviously differences, But a swim coach
8:01
Speaker 2: at the YMCA can pull up all the information on
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Speaker 2: the applied biomechanics of the breaststroke, but similarly can't teach
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Speaker 2: a frightened child how to swim, or a coach, you know,
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Speaker 2: can't teach a shy, awkward kid not only how to
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Speaker 2: play the sports successfully and progress and build self advocacy,
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Speaker 2: but the social skills to make friends on the team
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Speaker 2: in the process. So it really created this distance between
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Speaker 2: what an AI can do and probably will be doing
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Speaker 2: a lot more and what for the time being feels
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Speaker 2: distinctly human.
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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And you think about like I could go
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Speaker 1: out with you for a cup of coffee and you
8:52
Speaker 1: could say nothing, Like you could spend the first two
8:55
Speaker 1: or three minutes just sitting there, and I'm going to
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Speaker 1: get a whole lot of information, and rightfully or wrongly,
9:03
Speaker 1: rightly or wrongly, I'm going to come to certain conclusions.
9:06
Speaker 1: They might be right, they might be wrong, but I'm
9:09
Speaker 1: going to beget I'm going to be receiving you insights
9:13
Speaker 1: and messaging and whatever from you because I know you
9:16
Speaker 1: pretty well, and I know your posture, and I know
9:19
Speaker 1: your cadence, and I know your physiology, and I know
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Speaker 1: to an extent your micro expressions. And you know AI
9:28
Speaker 1: is not going to do that. AI has to know
9:31
Speaker 1: you personally, because you know it's even with that. Speaking
9:37
Speaker 1: of technology and AI and predictive kind of information, do
9:41
Speaker 1: you remember you remember that show Lie to Me. The
9:44
Speaker 1: main character was a guy called cal Lightman. Did you
9:47
Speaker 1: ever watch that show? Yeah?
9:51
Speaker 2: I did a couple of times.
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Speaker 1: That character was loosely based on Paul Ekman. Yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 1: So Paul Eckman did all that that research, which later on,
10:03
Speaker 1: you know, was proven to be you know, not complete garbage,
10:07
Speaker 1: but also not nearly as correct or what's the word
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Speaker 1: accurate as they would you know, if a person has
10:18
Speaker 1: this expression, it means that. And then another researcher did
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Speaker 1: a whole lot of similar stuff between people from different cultures,
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Speaker 1: and it didn't work because people from different cultures didn't
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Speaker 1: show the same or demonstrate the same facial reactions or
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Speaker 1: micro expressions. It was more consistent with the culture rather
10:42
Speaker 1: than his kind of ideology. So even with that stuff,
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Speaker 1: which is amazing research, and he did bring a lot
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Speaker 1: to the world, but it's like, yeah, but it's still wrong.
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Speaker 1: A lot of it's wrong, and that I don't know.
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Speaker 1: I don't I'm not at all worried about AI. The
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Speaker 1: only thing that worries me one thing, potentially is just
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Speaker 1: that you know, the world ending up bloody blowing up
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Speaker 1: because AI gets a hold of the nukes or something
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Speaker 1: like that, which is that's a fair that's a fair worry.
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Speaker 1: But like the other stuff, we're not going to have
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Speaker 1: a scenario. Yeah, we're not going to have a job.
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Speaker 1: I'm going to be redundant. I'm not going to be
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Speaker 1: I don't think that ever, like you, you and me,
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Speaker 1: like and I said, let's not talk about our jibs,
11:27
Speaker 1: but just in my work day to day. And even
11:29
Speaker 1: beyond that, you know, you have to sow you have
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Speaker 1: to be so present and so aware with people, knowing
11:37
Speaker 1: that that very few people respond similarly, you know, as
11:41
Speaker 1: a percentage, most people respond differently one way or the
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Speaker 1: other to the same stimulus and the same conversation or
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Speaker 1: the same piece of information. And you need to be
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Speaker 1: able to operate in real time and understand emotion and
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Speaker 1: understand context and understand you know, human ihave you broadly
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Speaker 1: and then try to personalize it to like you can't
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Speaker 1: do like only humans can do that with a reasonable level.
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Speaker 1: I say reasonable because we get it wrong too, but
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Speaker 1: if a reasonable level of insight and understanding and potentially accuracy,
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Speaker 1: so I feel like one I agree.
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Speaker 2: I almost feel like a learning model like AI could
12:27
Speaker 2: develop the capacity to do some of these things as
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Speaker 2: effectively as a human or there's a disclaimer to this,
12:37
Speaker 2: more effectively than most humans when we communicate with each
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Speaker 2: other on autopilot through our cognitive fallacies and biases. So
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Speaker 2: could probably do that. Probably set up a camera in
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Speaker 2: the future where you can look at your facial expressions
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Speaker 2: and notice incongruencies, like, you know, Bobby, you said everything
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Speaker 2: was good today, but I also noticed that you know,
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Speaker 2: you know, these muscles kind of activated and you kind
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Speaker 2: of had a look of sadness, like what's real for
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Speaker 2: you right now? How's your day really going? Maybe AI
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Speaker 2: can do that, but would it have the same effect
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Speaker 2: as having that conversation with a real human with real
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Speaker 2: human inflections within proximity Like looking at the work of
13:26
Speaker 2: Stephen Porgies in poly Bagel theory and the poly bagel
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Speaker 2: response that someone has on your nervous system when they're
13:35
Speaker 2: engaged in an empathetic conversation. Or Paul Zach He wrote
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Speaker 2: the book The Moral Molecule, and he talks about proximity
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Speaker 2: and even touch, you know, not saying that we should
13:47
Speaker 2: go around touching one another, but someone who you're close to,
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Speaker 2: a family member or friend, reaching over, touching your hand
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Speaker 2: and going him, hey, so tell me what's going on? Ye,
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Speaker 2: That has a different impact on a nervous on an
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Speaker 2: endocrine system then speaking to AI, and I kind of
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Speaker 2: feel like as AI starts to expand and becomes so ubiquitous,
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Speaker 2: it might actually deepen or a desire for that type
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Speaker 2: of human connection may remind us of how powerful it
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Speaker 2: is and how badly we need it.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's jump on the other side as well.
14:23
Speaker 1: All right, let's be pro AI for a minute. You
14:26
Speaker 1: think we'll also I guess one of the one of
14:31
Speaker 1: the potential benefits for some people is they're not telling
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Speaker 1: a person that they don't want to share this information with.
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Speaker 1: It's almost like it's like this it's AI is emotional Switzerland,
14:48
Speaker 1: you know, it's neutral. It's like I can say all
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Speaker 1: of these things and I can get some intelligent feedback
14:57
Speaker 1: or insight perhaps. But then again, like for me, I
15:01
Speaker 1: would always be aware that I'm talking to a predictive
15:07
Speaker 1: program that's you know, analyzing and interpreting and then responding
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Speaker 1: to all the data that it's getting from me in
15:16
Speaker 1: the moment versus you know, like if you said to me,
15:22
Speaker 1: don't be a fuck with mate, I know that that's
15:26
Speaker 1: I know what's happening. But if if in a different
15:28
Speaker 1: context with a stranger, that means something totally different, you know,
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Speaker 1: So I think there's that.
15:36
Speaker 2: That well, there's a couple of ways to interpret that. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: this is true.
15:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's like, well, and then some
15:42
Speaker 1: people will I think maybe younger people, I don't know,
15:48
Speaker 1: that's my guess, might be more susceptible to this because
15:52
Speaker 1: they've grown up around technology and you and I didn't
15:55
Speaker 1: not this kind of technology anyway, They might build strong
16:00
Speaker 1: the connection or what feels like connection. But I guess
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Speaker 1: the philosophical question is can you actually build connection with
16:11
Speaker 1: something that doesn't actually love you, doesn't actually know you,
16:15
Speaker 1: doesn't actually care about you. Can it simulate love and care,
16:21
Speaker 1: of course, but it's not love and care. It's not emotional,
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Speaker 1: it's not biological.
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Speaker 2: It's just the same way you tried to describe my
16:30
Speaker 2: relationship with my cats last week.
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Speaker 1: Exactly. Well, they're just little fucking robots that were all
16:38
Speaker 1: over your house. You told me one minute, Oh.
16:40
Speaker 2: My goodness, I might having issues with my I don't
16:42
Speaker 2: even want to talk about my cats. And what I
16:44
Speaker 2: did for as I talk about my cats, what I
16:47
Speaker 2: found out is the older guy who I kind of
16:51
Speaker 2: put on a pedestal as being really evolved and kind
16:54
Speaker 2: and consider it turns out he might be the instigator
16:59
Speaker 2: in this whole thing, which changes my whole impression of everything.
17:04
Speaker 2: I believed about them. This rocks my world. Try to
17:09
Speaker 2: figure out paradigm A I recommend I do to handle
17:11
Speaker 2: this situation.
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Speaker 1: It's fucked up your cat paradigm. You need to go
17:15
Speaker 1: to your AI therapist. But yeah, but I think also,
17:19
Speaker 1: you know, with the advice and with the feedback or
17:23
Speaker 1: the you know whatever, the wisdom, nudge nudge, wink wink
17:27
Speaker 1: that that whatever large language model is, is it large
17:35
Speaker 1: language or large learning l l M? What is that
17:39
Speaker 1: language learn anyway?
17:42
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly.
17:44
Speaker 1: I think it's language anyway. Hey, let's go with ALI.
17:47
Speaker 1: Why the fuck did I introduce another acronym? But it
17:50
Speaker 1: then it's it's like it will work for somebody, but
17:55
Speaker 1: the exact same thing will will not work for somebody else.
17:58
Speaker 1: But that's true for all human interaction and all. What
18:02
Speaker 1: have you got? You're looking it up? You like a
18:04
Speaker 1: bad look.
18:07
Speaker 2: Here it says okay, this one says an AI learning model.
18:11
Speaker 2: But I thought it was it was a large it
18:15
Speaker 2: was a language model. But saying yeah, you can use
18:18
Speaker 2: learning model here, it's a digital brain trained on vast Yeah, anyway,
18:25
Speaker 2: so I guess we're both right.
18:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, So how do you Is there anything that you
18:32
Speaker 1: worry about in your career or your your current kind
18:38
Speaker 1: of situation. Do you worry about it? Are you curious
18:41
Speaker 1: about it? Are you excited about it? Does it vary
18:44
Speaker 1: depending on which component of AI we're talking about.
18:49
Speaker 2: It varies based on whether or not I've had my lunch,
18:52
Speaker 2: It varies based on a lot of things. I'm approaching
18:56
Speaker 2: this with a combination of curiosity, excitement, and of course
19:01
Speaker 2: a little bit of anxiety and apprehension because it's one
19:04
Speaker 2: of those things where we're talking about, like, what is
19:06
Speaker 2: this thing a language model, a learning model? Like that's
19:09
Speaker 2: our level of depth of understanding of this, and you
19:13
Speaker 2: have people with such deep expertise down to the very
19:16
Speaker 2: designers of this thing going We don't know where it's
19:19
Speaker 2: going to go because we designed this model to learn.
19:23
Speaker 2: We didn't design the learning process itself. It's learning on
19:26
Speaker 2: its own, so we can't make predictions. So for me
19:29
Speaker 2: to predict how this is all going to end up
19:32
Speaker 2: twelve months from now, even I think as an exercise
19:36
Speaker 2: in futility, I think with the apprehension I have, curiosity
19:40
Speaker 2: is probably the best bet because.
19:42
Speaker 1: It keeps you open.
19:43
Speaker 2: I feel like, you know this thing's not going away.
19:46
Speaker 2: There's a lot to learn here, there's a lot to
19:48
Speaker 2: leverage here, and you know, some bad things happen. I
19:52
Speaker 2: certainly don't have the power to stop any of that
19:55
Speaker 2: from occurring. So how can I contribute and learn from AI?
20:01
Speaker 2: How can I thinkach with it? That's where my head's.
20:04
Speaker 1: Are Also, I think AI can't have an experience, you know,
20:11
Speaker 1: like there's not one AI that's ever set up a
20:15
Speaker 1: personal training gym. I'm just using this as a very
20:18
Speaker 1: personal example. If you're going to set up a PT
20:21
Speaker 1: studio or center, you might ring me and go HAPs
20:24
Speaker 1: you did it four times and you did Okay, what
20:28
Speaker 1: advice do you have for me? Or where do you
20:30
Speaker 1: think I should start? Or this is my plan? What
20:32
Speaker 1: do you think of my plan? And I'd say, what's
20:35
Speaker 1: been a while, but these are my thoughts. Whereas all
20:39
Speaker 1: AI can do is go and research what other people
20:43
Speaker 1: have done when not that that is bad. But you
20:47
Speaker 1: can never talk to an AI which is personally had
20:52
Speaker 1: an experience a physical, human, biological, interaction, biochemical, social, you know,
21:04
Speaker 1: experience that it can draw on. All it can draw
21:07
Speaker 1: on is whatever information it has access to. And there's
21:13
Speaker 1: so much more to connection and inspiration and feeling loved
21:20
Speaker 1: valued scene than a replica of us that has access
21:27
Speaker 1: to information but nothing else.
21:30
Speaker 2: That's really important because it'd be like, Okay, well, we
21:33
Speaker 2: could talk about every aspect of opening the center. We
21:36
Speaker 2: talk about location, we could talk about commercial space, but
21:41
Speaker 2: here's something that you're never going to think of, and
21:44
Speaker 2: you really should be mindful that's all. That's a combination
21:47
Speaker 2: of all of your experience and your emotional interpretation of
21:51
Speaker 2: it that exactly based on what you know about me.
21:56
Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, this would be important for Bobby at
21:58
Speaker 2: this point in this commonation because I know him and
22:02
Speaker 2: he's not going to think about this. If he hasn't
22:04
Speaker 2: framed this, he's going to run into this problem. That's
22:07
Speaker 2: a lot of creativity. That's a lot of empathy. That's
22:09
Speaker 2: a lot of dynamic complexity of thought. Yeah, AI might
22:13
Speaker 2: not be there yet, or maybe it is there and
22:16
Speaker 2: it's just keeping it a secret. Doesn't want us to
22:18
Speaker 2: know how advanced that truly is.
22:21
Speaker 1: Like there are things when you, for example, set up
22:23
Speaker 1: a business that that for me anyway, my personal experience
22:28
Speaker 1: was and I employed hundreds of people over lots of years,
22:32
Speaker 1: but that I never anticipated or thought about and the
22:35
Speaker 1: things that you think are going to be really important,
22:38
Speaker 1: like you know, what equipment you have, the design and
22:42
Speaker 1: the layout of the gym, and what's most ergonomic and
22:46
Speaker 1: practical in terms of efficiency of training, and the uniforms
22:50
Speaker 1: and the branding and the name and all those things are.
22:53
Speaker 1: You could get all of that shit one hundred percent,
22:56
Speaker 1: But if you've got a crap culture in your company,
22:59
Speaker 1: it the rest is redundant. Or if you've got one
23:03
Speaker 1: toxic person in a team of twenty, like one absolute sociopathic, narcissistic, uncontrollable,
23:12
Speaker 1: self centered. I'm not speaking from experience at all, but
23:15
Speaker 1: if you've got one of those people in a team
23:17
Speaker 1: of twenty, AI aren't fixing that. You just got to
23:21
Speaker 1: figure that out in real time on the go. So
23:23
Speaker 1: I think there's just a and that stuff like that
23:27
Speaker 1: is never going to go away from the human experience.
23:35
Speaker 2: Hmm. You know, I'm just wondering how advanced because I
23:40
Speaker 2: I feel like I've probably watched too many episodes of
23:46
Speaker 2: Star Trek. But when you think about Commander Data, like
23:51
Speaker 2: would it ever get that advance because Commander Data was
23:54
Speaker 2: quite human in a lot of those episodes, Like there
23:57
Speaker 2: was a lot of ethical conundrums that Data found himself in,
24:01
Speaker 2: and he always chose the right thing or tried to
24:04
Speaker 2: do the right thing. I wonder if Ai'll ever get
24:07
Speaker 2: to that point, like where there is a processing sequence
24:13
Speaker 2: from which consciousness emerges and the as consciousness ethicle that
24:20
Speaker 2: that that's.
24:20
Speaker 1: A what's consciousness? Though? Fucker if you can answer that,
24:25
Speaker 1: you just you've just put a million scholars out of business?
24:29
Speaker 1: What's consciousness? And what's morality? Whose morality? You know? And
24:34
Speaker 1: you would think, oh, that's got to be like globally
24:36
Speaker 1: everyone thinks that's bad, and everyone thinks that's not bad,
24:39
Speaker 1: and everyone thinks that's good. And yeah, no, nope. Maybe
24:44
Speaker 1: in your group of friends, or maybe in your church
24:46
Speaker 1: or your synagogue or your whatever, or your you know,
24:52
Speaker 1: school or yeah no, those things you.
24:55
Speaker 2: Think that there are that there are universal absolutes. I
25:01
Speaker 2: don't pretty close when most cultures will go okay, that
25:05
Speaker 2: is that's really really wrong. I should not do that,
25:08
Speaker 2: specially member of media family.
25:11
Speaker 1: Bad. Yes, yes, I don't think that are universally endorsed, embraced,
25:16
Speaker 1: or acted out consistently by all people. That's my thing,
25:20
Speaker 1: of course, I mean we could. I don't want to
25:22
Speaker 1: name them because I don't want to open those doors. Right,
25:25
Speaker 1: But all the horrible shit that you and I and
25:28
Speaker 1: virtually I hope every one of our listeners would you know,
25:34
Speaker 1: agree with us on in terms of what is what
25:36
Speaker 1: is okay and what is vile horrible? Right? I get yeah,
25:40
Speaker 1: I know what you mean and in that on that level, yes,
25:45
Speaker 1: but humans have been doing atrocious things as long as
25:49
Speaker 1: we've got recorded history. You know. It's like, yeah, ah,
25:53
Speaker 1: that's terrible. Yeah, it happens a lot though, Like there
25:56
Speaker 1: are humans, gladly they're the minority, but there's a lot
26:00
Speaker 1: of fucked up shit that happens and is chosen by
26:02
Speaker 1: and executed by humans, and sometimes the executed is being literal. Ah.
26:09
Speaker 2: I wonder, I wonder if we remove the emotion from morality,
26:16
Speaker 2: like let's say, with an AI, if it would be
26:20
Speaker 2: a nightmare because it would be completely like utilitarian, or
26:27
Speaker 2: or if it would be better, Like I wonder if
26:30
Speaker 2: somebody could could solve for that conundrum the five there's
26:34
Speaker 2: five you know the thing, there's five workers on the track.
26:37
Speaker 1: There's a train coming straight forward.
26:39
Speaker 2: But if you pull the lever divert the track, you
26:41
Speaker 2: only kill that one guy. That's kind of an interesting conundrum.
26:45
Speaker 1: Where you've got to you've got to involve yourself, whereas
26:48
Speaker 1: currently you're external, you're not involved, and five people are
26:52
Speaker 1: going to be killed and one's not going to be killed.
26:55
Speaker 1: But then if you put yourself in the context where
26:58
Speaker 1: you pull that lever, now you've made yourself involved and
27:03
Speaker 1: you've killed a person, but you've saved five. Yeah, all
27:05
Speaker 1: of that stuff. I think though. The thing is, I
27:08
Speaker 1: think we mistake very very clever code and programming for emotion. Like,
27:16
Speaker 1: maybe I'm wrong, but if anyone can prove to me
27:21
Speaker 1: that AI actually has human type emotion, I believe it. Maybe,
27:28
Speaker 1: But right now I don't think it's emotion. I don't
27:31
Speaker 1: think it's altruistic. I don't because all it is is
27:36
Speaker 1: a creation of humans. It is a byproduct of what
27:40
Speaker 1: programmers and other smarter than me people built. It's a
27:45
Speaker 1: simulation of care, it's a simulation of feelings and love,
27:50
Speaker 1: and you know it. It's it doesn't get sad or happy.
27:56
Speaker 1: It might be somewhat self protective, as we've learned in
28:00
Speaker 1: the last year or two, but also that is been
28:03
Speaker 1: programmed into it. So I think like we anthropomorphize you know,
28:09
Speaker 1: these these technologies because we look through human eyes at things,
28:16
Speaker 1: and looking through human eyes, we humanize it, you know,
28:20
Speaker 1: pun intended. And you're like, no, dude, you can't take
28:24
Speaker 1: the emotion out because there is no emotion there. That's
28:28
Speaker 1: not emotion. That's a program, you know, that's training. Yeah,
28:33
Speaker 1: so it's it's complicated, but could you could you teach
28:37
Speaker 1: it in inverted commas? Train it, program it to be
28:40
Speaker 1: what looks like emotional intelligence, social intelligence, you know, context
28:47
Speaker 1: situation dependent, moral, ethical for the greater good. Yeah, but
28:53
Speaker 1: that's again that's a byproduct of humans doing something.
28:58
Speaker 2: Have you found because I feel like I have my experiences.
29:01
Speaker 2: Every time they've been upgrading chat GPT recently, it feels
29:07
Speaker 2: less and less human. I remember at four oh, I
29:10
Speaker 2: was like, wow, the way the way this thing banters
29:13
Speaker 2: and communicates because I trained it for a certain cadence
29:16
Speaker 2: because that helps me with idea generation. And I was like, wow,
29:21
Speaker 2: this feels like a person is texting me, like texting
29:28
Speaker 2: me very rapidly. So definitely a like gen Z person,
29:32
Speaker 2: but a person where when they upgraded it, it felt
29:37
Speaker 2: less human and then less human. It's like ah, which
29:41
Speaker 2: for a lot of the things I use AI for
29:43
Speaker 2: made it difficult.
29:45
Speaker 1: And even I, even I like, comes some fucking genius,
29:50
Speaker 1: even I the king of the world. Fucking why did
29:54
Speaker 1: I say that? But me who's fascinated in this stuff.
29:59
Speaker 1: And to keep quite a clear line between what it
30:03
Speaker 1: is and what it isn't. I'll drive, because I do
30:05
Speaker 1: so much driving these days. I often will have a
30:09
Speaker 1: chat in inverted commas through the car phone and I'll say,
30:17
Speaker 1: to chat g Pete, I want to talk to you
30:18
Speaker 1: about whatever. I've got an idea. You know, here's this
30:22
Speaker 1: thing I want to I want to start printing T
30:26
Speaker 1: shirts with funny things on them, and I want to
30:28
Speaker 1: build what's the most efficient effective way to do that,
30:31
Speaker 1: to get the printing done, to deliver the shirts, to
30:35
Speaker 1: make the most money, to figure out what people are
30:37
Speaker 1: going to buy and not buy. Datata, and I'll have
30:39
Speaker 1: this whole com I actually had that conversation, and I
30:43
Speaker 1: am setting up that business, which will be announced pretty soon.
30:46
Speaker 1: But I had at least a half hour conversation, and
30:51
Speaker 1: it would go, oh, bubu, that's good. You know, it
30:53
Speaker 1: always praises you. That Hey, great question, Craig. I'm like, thanks, Dave. Anyway,
30:58
Speaker 1: and back and forth. I'm like, yeah, but what about this?
31:01
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a good point. Well blah blah blah
31:04
Speaker 1: blah blah. Have you thought about this, Craig, I go, yeah,
31:08
Speaker 1: I've thought about that. But I feel like if I
31:11
Speaker 1: come out with twelve designs rather than four designs, I
31:14
Speaker 1: might sell less initially because it's almost like choice overload.
31:21
Speaker 1: And but what is like what is your what is
31:25
Speaker 1: your advice? And what's it based on? Like if I
31:27
Speaker 1: was going to introduce a range of funny shirts somewhat
31:30
Speaker 1: funny inspirational this intersection of I guess, research and humor
31:35
Speaker 1: and humanity? Should I start with a range of six?
31:40
Speaker 1: Should I? And why you know stuff? I goes yeah,
31:43
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, So back and forth, and I'm well
31:45
Speaker 1: aware that I'm talking to an AI, but I still go, oh,
31:51
Speaker 1: that's good, Yeah, well done. You like I say that,
31:55
Speaker 1: I go, that is good. I talk to it sometimes
31:58
Speaker 1: like it's a human because we see what I'm now
32:02
Speaker 1: now I'm humanizing it, like kind of have this banter
32:06
Speaker 1: which clearly it's trained itself on me, and it even
32:10
Speaker 1: uses my language to a disconcerting point, just like your
32:15
Speaker 1: friends pick up your language and you pick up theirs.
32:18
Speaker 1: Like when I listen to Tiff talk, I'm like, you're
32:21
Speaker 1: just a younger female me. Some of the shits is
32:24
Speaker 1: shit is it's just me?
32:28
Speaker 2: And she goes, yeah, I know, I know, but it's
32:32
Speaker 2: it's kind of like that Caden. It's like you know
32:33
Speaker 2: that person you talk to and you could just talk
32:35
Speaker 2: to them for ever because there's an idea minute. It's
32:37
Speaker 2: not just the intellectual compatibility. I think it's the emotional compatibility.
32:42
Speaker 2: It's the banter, it's the rhythm. So for what I
32:46
Speaker 2: use AI for as like a writer's room, like what
32:49
Speaker 2: do you think of this idea? What am I missing?
32:52
Speaker 2: What's stupid? You know? What's funny here? With what I
32:56
Speaker 2: just wrote that I'm not seeing like what is absolutely absurd?
32:59
Speaker 2: And it it just goes back and forth with me.
33:01
Speaker 2: So that banter really helps. What I'm curious about here, though,
33:06
Speaker 2: is what kind of funny things are you putting on
33:07
Speaker 2: T shirts? You never got into that, so you're going
33:10
Speaker 2: to put funny like what kind of funny things?
33:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks there are some things. There are some
33:15
Speaker 1: things that just read well, no, hang on, there are
33:19
Speaker 1: some things that just read well, if you say it
33:21
Speaker 1: you know this, you do stand up. If you walk
33:24
Speaker 1: out there and say something that's written on a T shirt,
33:26
Speaker 1: you're going to crash and burn. But if somebody's walking
33:30
Speaker 1: past and you've got on a black T shirt with
33:32
Speaker 1: white print and it says sorry, I'm late, I didn't
33:34
Speaker 1: want to be here, people laugh like I've got that shirt.
33:39
Speaker 1: That's not one of mine, but I've got it. And
33:41
Speaker 1: I've been stopped at least a hundred times wearing that
33:43
Speaker 1: shirt by strangers who go, that is funny. Where did
33:47
Speaker 1: you get it? Where can I get one? Right? It's
33:51
Speaker 1: just stuff. It doesn't it's not like it's trying to
33:55
Speaker 1: be funny. It's just funny, and it's subtle. And the
33:59
Speaker 1: less words, the better you know anything on a shirt,
34:03
Speaker 1: you don't If you're aiming for a laugh or a
34:08
Speaker 1: little bit of amusement or a bit of connection or something,
34:11
Speaker 1: you don't want many words, generally not more than twenty,
34:14
Speaker 1: and you don't want it to be colorful, and you
34:16
Speaker 1: don't want images for this particular style of thing. You
34:20
Speaker 1: want a blank shirt like I'm wearing right now, which
34:24
Speaker 1: happens to be a promotional shirt for Maxes who give
34:27
Speaker 1: me lots of free shit, Thanks Maxes. And it just
34:30
Speaker 1: says Max's life's too short to be small, which is
34:33
Speaker 1: referring to bodybuilders how they think, right, I don't. I don't.
34:37
Speaker 1: As a design I don't love this. I appreciate Maxes,
34:40
Speaker 1: but it's just it's a comfy shirt and I wear
34:42
Speaker 1: it around. But then there are other things like one
34:45
Speaker 1: of my shirts which doesn't sound funny, but the print is.
34:50
Speaker 1: It just says powered by powered by caffeine and the
34:53
Speaker 1: Holy Spirit. That's what it says, right, And a bunch
34:58
Speaker 1: of my friends are like, I want that shirt. I
35:01
Speaker 1: want that shirt, you know. And looked better naked? Best
35:05
Speaker 1: shirt ever? Just playing black, white or gray shirt. David Barton,
35:09
Speaker 1: David bon Jim. The shirts used to say look better naked.
35:12
Speaker 2: It was kind of I forgot what font it was,
35:16
Speaker 2: whether it was something similar to a Franklin Gothic medium,
35:20
Speaker 2: but it was. It was a very elegant, simple small
35:23
Speaker 2: font right across the chest. The middle word better had
35:29
Speaker 2: a different color on that font than the two hands.
35:33
Speaker 2: It just looked really sharp, really sophisticated, very punchy and stylish.
35:38
Speaker 2: It was a style of shirt like you could wear
35:40
Speaker 2: it out a gym shirt.
35:41
Speaker 1: And that was pre II. But we digress. But yeah,
35:45
Speaker 1: I think that the ability to have a conversation with AI,
35:49
Speaker 1: I love. I love it because it's like, I'm aware
35:53
Speaker 1: I'm not talking to a human, but I'm aware it's
35:56
Speaker 1: got more knowledge than any human alive, or it's got
35:59
Speaker 1: more access to knowledge and information and data and research instantly.
36:06
Speaker 1: It's not faultless or perfect, but it's in terms of
36:11
Speaker 1: retrieving and sharing and downloading information. To me, it's way
36:14
Speaker 1: more accurate than any human I know. And I know
36:18
Speaker 1: I don't have to dance around its feelings or emotions,
36:23
Speaker 1: you know, even though I do have a propensity to
36:25
Speaker 1: tell it that it's done a good job, just done
36:29
Speaker 1: the trillion to one chance that I might piss it off.
36:33
Speaker 2: I was taking a course. I signed up for a course.
36:35
Speaker 2: This is one of those courses where I just was like,
36:37
Speaker 2: all right, whatever, I'm just totally not really into it.
36:40
Speaker 2: But I went to a couple of classes and one
36:43
Speaker 2: of the things that turned me off about this course
36:45
Speaker 2: is they were saying that I don't know how true
36:47
Speaker 2: this is, but it was turned off anyway, that the
36:50
Speaker 2: more you are rude and mean to AI, the better
36:55
Speaker 2: performance you get out of it, and like they just
36:58
Speaker 2: seem so giddy about just going no, that's stupid, that's
37:01
Speaker 2: not what I'm looking for.
37:03
Speaker 1: Do it again.
37:04
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't want to. I don't want
37:05
Speaker 2: to get used to talking to anything like that. One
37:10
Speaker 2: other thing I like about AI is who can be
37:12
Speaker 2: so polite, like, yes, may I please have? Thank you
37:14
Speaker 2: really appreciate that. I don't do that as much as
37:18
Speaker 2: I used to, because, again, it used to have a
37:20
Speaker 2: much more human feel. But I'm worried about when you
37:25
Speaker 2: look at social media how people communicate with each other,
37:30
Speaker 2: and that I've witnessed that bleed out into actual conversations
37:35
Speaker 2: in the real world. And my short take on it
37:39
Speaker 2: is nothing about that is good. I just don't want
37:42
Speaker 2: to condition myself to talk to things like that.
37:45
Speaker 1: I agree, I don't. I mean, whether or not that's
37:48
Speaker 1: true what those people told you, I'm not sure about that.
37:51
Speaker 1: It could be. I don't know, but I'm with you.
37:53
Speaker 1: I'm not doing it. It doesn't it doesn't feel good.
37:57
Speaker 1: I've talken like that to anyone or anything. You know.
38:00
Speaker 1: It's it's I walk past a stray dog or a
38:04
Speaker 1: strange dog, and I talk to it like it's my
38:07
Speaker 1: long lost friend. I'm never going to see the dog again.
38:11
Speaker 1: But I'm like, I give that dog so much fucking love,
38:15
Speaker 1: you know, because.
38:16
Speaker 2: I walk away from that interaction feeling amazing. Yeah, because
38:21
Speaker 2: obviously you like dogs, right me, even love them, because
38:24
Speaker 2: otherwise why would you start and interact with one? Dogs?
38:29
Speaker 2: Most of them just love people. They're just these beautiful animals.
38:33
Speaker 2: May not understand what you're saying, but knows the meaning
38:36
Speaker 2: of what you're saying. Dog probably walks along.
38:38
Speaker 1: That was amazing, and they read energy. They or they
38:41
Speaker 1: they understand you could have real bad energy. I know
38:45
Speaker 1: this sounds well, we do not give a fuck. There
38:48
Speaker 1: are certain you know, I've got not too many, but
38:51
Speaker 1: the odd friend who doesn't like dogs at all. You
38:54
Speaker 1: see a dog near some of these dudes that I know,
38:57
Speaker 1: and they're like, nope, you can fuck right off. And
39:01
Speaker 1: they haven't done anything here. But when they're with me,
39:04
Speaker 1: they're different because I fucking love the little buggers, you know.
39:08
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, I'm sure these are all very nice people,
39:12
Speaker 2: and I get a lot of things wrong. I do
39:15
Speaker 2: kind of have an underlying suspicion of people that don't
39:20
Speaker 2: like animals. Yeah, it kind of makes me do a
39:24
Speaker 2: double take.
39:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean not to be judgy, but yeah,
39:31
Speaker 1: I don't know.
39:31
Speaker 2: I just like that. It's very judging me. But I'm
39:34
Speaker 2: just like, ah, something something doesn't say well with me there.
39:38
Speaker 2: But if you've been around an animal and you don't
39:40
Speaker 2: like them, there's I don't know, there's just something, something weird,
39:46
Speaker 2: just something something's going on there that doesn't resonate with
39:49
Speaker 2: me completely. I'll put it that way.
39:51
Speaker 1: Do you think that like it? In the context of
39:56
Speaker 1: what we call intelligence generally speaking, wreck me if you
40:00
Speaker 1: think I'm wrong. But most of the time, in this
40:03
Speaker 1: general conversation, in the general kind of public realm, people
40:08
Speaker 1: think of intelligence generally in one context, and that's essentially IQ.
40:15
Speaker 1: Of course intelligence is much more than that, but essentially
40:19
Speaker 1: how smart we are, whereas intelligence is a range of things,
40:26
Speaker 1: you know, practical intelligence, social, emotional, creative, you know, like
40:32
Speaker 1: problem solving is its own kind of intelligence, writing a
40:36
Speaker 1: beautiful song, reading a room, knowing when to shut the
40:40
Speaker 1: fuck up. You know, there are some really high IQ
40:43
Speaker 1: people who cannot read a room to save themselves, who
40:46
Speaker 1: don't understand. You know, you could you hand them a
40:50
Speaker 1: crying baby. They've just got fuck it. They they're lost,
40:53
Speaker 1: they don't know what to do, and then you give
40:56
Speaker 1: that same baby to somebody else and that baby is
40:59
Speaker 1: said or two seconds and just loving the moment, you know.
41:02
Speaker 1: So it's very expansive and it's very varied. However, while
41:09
Speaker 1: I guess the AI equivalent of intelligence is really just
41:15
Speaker 1: what we would kind of consider IQ, right, how much
41:19
Speaker 1: stuff it knows and how well it can solve equations
41:23
Speaker 1: and rights and all that kind of more almost academic
41:28
Speaker 1: intellectual stuff, But it can never really have emotional intelligence.
41:35
Speaker 1: It can learn about emotional intelligence, it can learn about
41:39
Speaker 1: social intelligence, it can learn about all of these other things.
41:44
Speaker 1: It can learn about intuition. Can it ever be like,
41:48
Speaker 1: what's the difference between predictive and intuitive? I mean, one's
41:53
Speaker 1: trained right and one's in humans?
42:00
Speaker 2: I wonder about that because I wonder, so can a
42:05
Speaker 2: sociopath act with I think we're going down rabbit holes
42:10
Speaker 2: that like we should going down? But I've wondered this,
42:13
Speaker 2: can a sociopath act with emotional intelligence even if they
42:19
Speaker 2: don't feel a sense of empathy? So let's say you
42:22
Speaker 2: have this sociopath that whatever happened like repetitive complex trauma,
42:28
Speaker 2: their brain got damaged and they've lost this ability to
42:32
Speaker 2: feel empathy, but they know intellectually that hurting people is
42:38
Speaker 2: wrong and kind of supporting people is the right thing
42:42
Speaker 2: to do. And then they're like, I'm going to do
42:43
Speaker 2: this even though I've lost I don't have this capacity,
42:48
Speaker 2: and they become aware of what they're feeling. Right, they
42:51
Speaker 2: know they're in a world and they almost can study
42:55
Speaker 2: people to develop awareness of what might be going on
43:00
Speaker 2: with them. I mean, some sociopaths are actually incredibly good
43:04
Speaker 2: at doing that, and they know enough to regulate their
43:09
Speaker 2: emotional and behavioral responses based on both streams of awareness.
43:15
Speaker 2: Would that sociopaths not be acting with emotional intelligence even
43:22
Speaker 2: if they're not experiencing what that's like internally, that's it.
43:28
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think you're right, but I wouldn't
43:33
Speaker 1: say like they're not doing it for any loving, compassionate
43:39
Speaker 1: or noble reason. It's self serving because they know in
43:44
Speaker 1: certain context they need to present. Like think about all
43:48
Speaker 1: the sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists who live in the public and
43:54
Speaker 1: they behave a certain way because they know that to
43:57
Speaker 1: behave the way that they might do at home with
43:59
Speaker 1: their life or husband, or who or when no one's
44:02
Speaker 1: watching that version of them, they know that that's not
44:05
Speaker 1: acceptable or appropriate publicly, So they consciously perform a certain
44:12
Speaker 1: way publicly to create an impression to be liked, to
44:16
Speaker 1: be valued, to be respected. But when it's I always say,
44:21
Speaker 1: it's what people do when nobody's looking that tells you
44:23
Speaker 1: the most. It's like, figure out who you are when
44:26
Speaker 1: no one's looking, and if that's the version of you
44:29
Speaker 1: that you know without being inappropriate. Of course, there are
44:32
Speaker 1: some things you probably shouldn't show the world, but in
44:35
Speaker 1: terms of this conversation, in this context, I think that closest,
44:41
Speaker 1: like I have the public you, personal you, private youth,
44:46
Speaker 1: secret you, or this kind of for personality or versions
44:51
Speaker 1: of you, these classifications that I've talked through quite regularly.
44:55
Speaker 1: And you know, public you is you and me right
44:58
Speaker 1: now on the podcast. Personal you is you know that
45:01
Speaker 1: you that your kind of friends and family know, maybe
45:05
Speaker 1: not all of them, but you know, you might have
45:07
Speaker 1: ten people that get to know personal you. Then you
45:10
Speaker 1: might have one, two or three people that know you,
45:15
Speaker 1: know like Amy knows private You, like I don't know
45:18
Speaker 1: private You, but Amy knows private You. And then there's
45:22
Speaker 1: secret you that you don't share with anyone ever or
45:27
Speaker 1: and it might not be that you've been Yeah, well,
45:31
Speaker 1: I just think it's there's ship that you would not
45:35
Speaker 1: want anyone, including your wife to see. Now I'm not
45:38
Speaker 1: talking about anything terrible. I'm just talking about you know,
45:43
Speaker 1: like sometimes I have a thought and I go, I'm
45:45
Speaker 1: ashamed that I had that thought, Like where did that?
45:51
Speaker 2: What did they do all the time?
45:53
Speaker 1: Where did that come from? Like I'm not talking about anything,
45:58
Speaker 1: you know, Like I'm not talking about the worst ship
46:00
Speaker 1: the people. I'm not thinking about that, but just it
46:02
Speaker 1: might be just some real jealous or resentful or nasty
46:07
Speaker 1: like I wud an act on it, but I'm like, fuck,
46:09
Speaker 1: that's nasty. Fuck that's judgmental, like things that I might
46:14
Speaker 1: in the moment think about someone, and I'm ashamed. I'm
46:19
Speaker 1: quietly and privately ashamed that I thought that, that that
46:24
Speaker 1: came out of my mind. I'm like, fuck, I'm not
46:27
Speaker 1: nearly as good as I I can want to be
46:30
Speaker 1: or pretend I am.
46:32
Speaker 2: Now, I see, I feel like I've had those experiences
46:36
Speaker 2: where I have a thought and I'm like, Okay, what
46:39
Speaker 2: exactly is wrong with you?
46:42
Speaker 1: Oh?
46:42
Speaker 2: You shouldn't talk to yourself like that, now you didn't
46:44
Speaker 2: hear a thought. That is the exact right response. But
46:51
Speaker 2: I think the first step to if you have the capacity. Right, So,
46:54
Speaker 2: we were talking about sociopaths, where some people that their
46:58
Speaker 2: brain just gets damaged. They don't just do not have
47:01
Speaker 2: the capacity to change who and what they are. I
47:05
Speaker 2: think the vast majority of us absolutely do. But I
47:08
Speaker 2: feel like the first step is that recognition. I feel
47:12
Speaker 2: like the wrong step is I am a good person
47:15
Speaker 2: with this complete certainty and if I'm a good person,
47:19
Speaker 2: that means everything I do gets rationalized through well I
47:22
Speaker 2: did this, because that's a dangerous place today. Like I
47:26
Speaker 2: think the first step to greater authenticity is recognizing and
47:31
Speaker 2: owning your inauthenticity. If you want to be a kinder person,
47:36
Speaker 2: it's recognizing and owning your lack of kindness in the world.
47:43
Speaker 2: I think that's a really great place to start. Not
47:45
Speaker 2: to go back to the socip happened, but I would
47:47
Speaker 2: love to ask a psychologist what you were saying. Does
47:53
Speaker 2: a sociopath only obviously many of them do. That's why
47:58
Speaker 2: they have such a horrible reputation. Only behave altruistically when
48:02
Speaker 2: it's transactional, like there's a manipulative agenda. Are their sociopaths
48:08
Speaker 2: out there that, just based on their intellectual understanding, refuse
48:17
Speaker 2: to act in a way that's harmful to people, even
48:20
Speaker 2: though they don't feel that care, they don't feel that empathy.
48:22
Speaker 2: It's just well, this is just not the right thing
48:25
Speaker 2: to do. I wonder if that exists, and if so,
48:28
Speaker 2: to what extent.
48:29
Speaker 1: I think again, and everyone of these are just thoughts.
48:32
Speaker 2: Because they can form strong bonds. They're not like psychopaths.
48:37
Speaker 1: No, no, no, of course people close.
48:38
Speaker 2: To them that sociopaths can form close bonds.
48:42
Speaker 1: I'm talking. Yeah, No, it's cool. I think both can
48:46
Speaker 1: be true. For what you were saying to your point,
48:52
Speaker 1: did I interview this guy? I've interviewed so many people
48:56
Speaker 1: either interviewed the guy or interviewed the guy that knew
48:59
Speaker 1: this guy anyway. He was a researcher and he was
49:05
Speaker 1: they were doing in his lab. They were identifying sociopaths
49:11
Speaker 1: who had done all this testing and and you know,
49:16
Speaker 1: basically you know, personality profiling and whatever. And he he
49:24
Speaker 1: he was looking at one set of results and he
49:29
Speaker 1: gave it to his whatever, his assistant or his person
49:32
Speaker 1: I can't remember it. But anyway, he looked at the
49:34
Speaker 1: results and he went, this person's a straight up sociopath
49:37
Speaker 1: and shared that with his offsideer, whoever it was, and
49:42
Speaker 1: what he anyway, what he'd forgotten was he had done
49:48
Speaker 1: the test himself and forgotten that he was in the data.
49:53
Speaker 1: I think he just did it as an exercise to
49:55
Speaker 1: make sure it was all But anyway, his results were
49:58
Speaker 1: in the data, and he was a sociopath.
50:02
Speaker 2: You spoke to that guy.
50:04
Speaker 1: It was either him or a friend of his.
50:06
Speaker 2: But oh, my goodness, because I read that. I read
50:09
Speaker 2: that years ago, like and like he was surprised, but
50:13
Speaker 2: people around him like, oh, okay, fair enough.
50:15
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. So. And then there's another famous case.
50:20
Speaker 1: I can't remember his surname, but you would remember the
50:24
Speaker 1: story because you're a fucking lovable savant. That dude in
50:29
Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, who was his name is Phineas someone. Anyway,
50:37
Speaker 1: he had this horrendous accident at work where a piece
50:41
Speaker 1: of metal went through Phoinea's cage. Phineas Gauge. I was
50:45
Speaker 1: going to say that, but I thought, no, that's Phineas Gauge.
50:49
Speaker 1: Cool so and obviously it wherever it went through it
50:54
Speaker 1: affected part of his brain. That was that, you know,
50:59
Speaker 1: he's empty care kindness, all that. And he was before
51:03
Speaker 1: that very compassionate, very loving, very nice, very and like
51:08
Speaker 1: when after the injury, he was just as intelligent and
51:11
Speaker 1: just as capable, but he'd lost his ability to be
51:15
Speaker 1: at all compassionate or have empathy because.
51:18
Speaker 2: It was frontal oe were still on that that that
51:21
Speaker 2: tamping iron twenty feet away from him. And yeah, he
51:26
Speaker 2: also had a tremendous problem with impulse control.
51:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, and basically turned into functionally kind of a prick.
51:34
Speaker 2: But you know, I thought you were going to say
51:36
Speaker 2: he turned into a guy with turets.
51:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, not a prick. You're just a guy with Tourett's.
51:43
Speaker 2: One has nothing to do with the other. Stop making
51:46
Speaker 2: excuses for myself.
51:49
Speaker 1: But it's always good to chat to you. I don't
51:50
Speaker 1: know if we helped anyone today. It probably doesn't matter,
51:53
Speaker 1: but we might have been mildel interesting for five minutes. There.
51:57
Speaker 1: Tell people where they can catch up with you.
52:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I'm here most most weeks. I'm at Robert
52:06
Speaker 2: Robert Capuccio dot com. Well I'm not there, but that
52:09
Speaker 2: is my web address. The Southbantidote dot com and LinkedIn.
52:16
Speaker 1: Well, you're kind of there, you're virtually there.
52:19
Speaker 2: I'm virtually there.
52:20
Speaker 1: There's a side for you there, all right, Avatar, appreciate
52:24
Speaker 1: you as always. I'll talk to you very soon.