Latest / Self-Schooled / Raising a Highly Sensitive Child: When to Push, Pause & Build Resilience with Amy Lajiness
Transcript
- Heather DiNino (she/they): And I love anyone who's like doing bullet points period. Are you a Virgo? Did we talk about this? Amy Lajiness: Yeah. It just helped to organize my brain too. So maybe I'll pull that up. ⁓ let's see. No, I'm a Gemini, but I my husband's a Virgo, actually. For whatever that's worth. Heather DiNino (she/they): Are you a Virgo? Interesting. Okay. Yeah, I'm a Virgo and I tend to like attract other Virgos. And so when I saw the bullet points, I was like, ⁓ I wonder. Amy Lajiness: No, I'm not. is this doing okay sorry I had ⁓ I'm trying to split my screen so I can see yeah it's weird laginus I know everyone I hear lahinous lahinous laginus ⁓ all sorts of stuff ⁓ yeah I know I know la lad laginus laginus yeah Heather DiNino (she/they): That's okay. Can you tell me how to say your last name? Is it? Okay, I thought lachiness. So now I have those other ones. Can you say how it actually is? Lagi-ness. Amy Lajiness: Think of it a like the n woman's name Mage, like Laginus. That's the kind of the i the Americanized version of it. ⁓ so Heather DiNino (she/they): Okay. Do you know where it, is it your name or is it your husband's name? Amy Lajiness: It's not. It's my husband's name. My name was Martinez, which was a lot easier to for people to know how to say. ⁓ it his is a French it's like a French Canadian. La jeunesse. So which is why with a J in there, everyone nobody knows how to pronounce a J because it's so different. And being in San Diego, Heather DiNino (she/they): Okay. I mean, I was just gonna say in San Diego, I kind of also like was like, lackeyness. Amy Lajiness: Exactly. No, th I that's the most common one I get here. Lahinus. Yeah. But it's Laginous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Lageness, Amy Lageness. Okay, so I shortened your bio quite a bit for like introduction, but I'll put the whole bio in the show notes because I think it's all really important, but I don't want to read the whole thing in the beginning because then it sounds like I'm talking about you a lot. I'm too much sometimes. Amy Lajiness: No, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's too much. Yeah. No, yeah, and that one is four I mean, it's for I should probably narrow it down, honestly, but it's like for podcasts by like Heather DiNino (she/they): I I think it's helpful. I think when people are reading, they want to know all that stuff. You know what I mean? So I think it is helpful. I shortened it for what I'm gonna read, but okay. Let's get started and see where this conversation takes us. Amy Lajiness: Yeah. Yeah. Please. Yes. Okay. Okay, perfect. Heather DiNino (she/they): Hi everyone. I am so excited to welcome Amy Ladjenes to the show today. Amy is a therapist and a coach whose focus is in supporting highly sensitive parents to reclaim their peace and their confidence. Super important. In addition to providing individual therapy at her California private practice, Amy offers coaching courses and resources. to support highly sensitive parents and parents of highly sensitive children through highly sensitive parenthood, which is worldwide. And Amy is a highly sensitive person herself. So she gets it personally and professionally, which is super, super important. ⁓ She is also a mother of two highly energetic young children. So welcome to the show, Amy. We're so happy to have you here. Amy Lajiness: Thanks so much, Heather. I'm really excited to be here and to continue our conversation. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah, mean, talk about soul sisters, right? Like I can always tell when I talk to someone that I'm just like, ⁓ we're like speaking the same language and like nodding along with each other. It just it feels very aligned. And, you know, I'm also a highly sensitive person with two highly sensitive children. And so living this life is personal. So if you could just talk a little bit about How you found out that you yourself was a highly sensitive person was that before you started doing your HSP work or after? Amy Lajiness: Okay, great question. And I don't know that I can point to like a specific moment that I w I'm sure I did have a moment. I don't remember what it was. I think it was in my probably in my twenties, ⁓ where I came across the term highly sensitive person, HSP, and thought, ⁓ yeah, that's me, kind of the empathy piece, the the sensitivity to kind of sensory inputs, the loud noises or the bright light. Lights, ⁓ kind of the depth of processing stuff. So there was a lot of that that resonated with me. But where it really showed up in a significant way was after I had kids, definitely after my ⁓ my first child was born, and then even more so after my second child was born, because there was just like there was double the input. and so I I had the experience that a lot of parents have where Heather DiNino (she/they): Hmm Amy Lajiness: They may or may not be aware of being highly sensitive prior to having children, but there's things about Becoming a parent biologically and then even just in day-to-day life that amplify the trait, both in both the positive aspects of the trait, like like empathy and and connectedness and attunement and also some of the the challenges like sensory overstimulation. and so s so that's kind of a long answer to your question, which is I don't really know an exact moment, but there's been kind of an ever deepening awareness of being a highly sensitive person. And noticing parents that I was working with in my therapy practice having some of the same experiences or similar experiences to what I did. And so I got really curious about kind of this intersection of ⁓ perinatal, postpartum, and parental mental health and how that dovetails with ⁓ neurodiversity broadly, but also being highly sensitive more specifically. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah, that's a really interesting point because being a parent does change you in so many ways. ⁓ Like you said, biologically as well as your lifestyle, ⁓ as well as potentially your support system. If you ⁓ don't have the people to reach out to that understand what you're saying, right? So for example, I had my both of my kids needed to be held a lot. and I would feel really touched out. Like I just, by the time my husband got home, I was handing them off because I was like, I cannot be touched anymore. Like, please don't, don't touch me, don't look at me, don't talk to me. Like I need to go in a black hole. ⁓ And I didn't have words for what that was. So I felt bad. You know, I felt like, should I? Amy Lajiness: Yeah. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): want to be holding my babies all the time, like everyone says it goes by quickly and everyone says, savor your time. Are those things that you hear often from? Yes, see, I didn't realize until after, right? That like, and I identified already as a, I've always identified as like a highly sensitive person, but I didn't connect the two. Hold on, can you hear me? Amy Lajiness: I Heather DiNino (she/they): Can you hear me? Okay, my internet, I'm just gonna put my hotspot on because my internet is ⁓ not happy. Amy Lajiness: Now I can, yeah. Tricky. Heather DiNino (she/they): I can edit this part out easily, but I just want to get back to. Amy Lajiness: Of course, of course. No. I I'm happy to jump right back in. Don't worry at all. I've recorded many a podcast, so not much can throw me. Heather DiNino (she/they): And they don't all go smoothly. Amy Lajiness: Whoa! Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): Now this isn't connecting to my hot spot though. there. Okay, can you hear me? No. Be there. You can hear me. I'm gonna turn my hotspot off, cause now it's making it... annoyed. Amy Lajiness: Mm-hmm. ⁓ no. Heather DiNino (she/they): All right, I don't know. We'll see how this goes. ⁓ Let's see. Amy Lajiness: Yeah. Is there a way? I mean we can always I wonder I I know you use video for for YouTube and it's nice to have that. ⁓ but if it is Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah, if it's really a problem, we can always turn the video off. ⁓ But we'll see, it might be okay. ⁓ So, yeah, I always identified as a highly sensitive person, but I related to the aspects of it I had heard about, like being an empath and feeling really big. And I didn't ever remember hearing or learning about more of the sensory. Amy Lajiness: Okay. No, I think so. Heather DiNino (she/they): stuff or just kind of the overwhelming aspect of it. And so do you hear that a lot from parents? New parents especially, but parents like... Amy Lajiness: Yes. Yes. ⁓ yeah, and that was my own experience as well. I also had to kind of hand the kids off to my husband for depends on the day, but like ten to thirty minutes and just go like lay down in a dark room, especially during a s kind of a certain period of ⁓ early parenthood. And that's a so it's just such a common experience and you're right to name like the guilt that can accompany that. It it basically it always accompanies that at least at first because we have all those narratives from social media. Or from even from like our own ⁓ internal compass around how we want to parent. So that's another thing about being a highly sensitive parent was is we have often these sort of like deeply reflected upon values on how we want to show up as parents, and some of it might be reactions against how we were raised, or like that was amazing. I want to continue with that. A lot of ⁓ highly sensitive parents are big researchers, so we'll like listen to podcasts. We'll read books, we'll we'll we'll really want to know like how do I just raise my kid? How do I how am I the best parent that I can be? How do I raise my kid the best that I can? And then when we run into things like this, often guilt shows up really quickly, and we have those narratives like only 18 summers, and like the what is it? Like the the mo the days are long, but the years are short, and it's just like I find really profoundly unhelpful because they invalidate the experience that ⁓ that many highly sensitive parents have which is that that over stimulation the sensory overstimulation piece ⁓ and that can show up in in infancy but i want to mention too that like for many sensitive parents the most challenging Point or period of parenthood is that sort of like toddler to preschool stage. Now, this is not universal, but I have come across a lot of parents that are like, well, I was fine, or I was like, I was managing those like first six months or however long, and now like all of a sudden I'm not managing. and it very much depends on the child, very much depends on the parent and their situation. But you know, you think about like a one and a half-year-old, a two-year-old, and they're mommy, daddy. Like pressing, you know, touching you, they're climbing on you, they're jumping off things, the parent ⁓ hypervigilance is off the charts. Like it's just a different intensity than again, most infant experiences are. There are exceptions, of course, but ⁓ I do come across some guilt around that too. Like, why am I finding this difficult all of a sudden? ⁓ we're out of this like early stage. this doesn't even count as like a postpartum issue anymore because they're 18 months and I'm like, no, it's still it still does. Like, this is still very much like a a a mental health thing or or an adjustment thing that deserves support and deserves professional support or group support or community support or ideally all of the above. so Heather DiNino (she/they): could support also start with naming it and maybe we could talk a little bit about like if folks are listening and they have shared experiences that you and I have described and they're like, wait, that kind of sounds like me and I didn't even know that was a highly sensitive person thing. Like what might be the first place to start? Amy Lajiness: Your yes, you're absolutely right. And I actually teach a continuing ed for other professionals, other therapists around like how to support highly sensitive person people and parents. And that's the first thing is like this like kind of naming of it. That that acknowledgement that this is a piece of their experience that is not they don't need to just shove it away or be like, Well, other parents have it worse. I hear that a lot too. At least I have the privilege to have a little bit of support here or the finances to do this or that, and it's like That's a whole other conversation, but like let's just name that this is difficult. Let's just name that this experience is maybe unexpected or or just a curveball for you. And yeah, absolutely. Yes. Heather DiNino (she/they): preferred maybe even. This is not my preferred experience right now. I wish this felt easier. I wish I wasn't touched out by my kids, right? Like I wish, yeah. Amy Lajiness: Yeah. Right. And and I want to circle back to that, kind of like the shame around that. But just to name like a couple of resources real quick. there are there's a website called ⁓ Highly Sensitive Refuge that has a lot of ⁓ sort of like independent blogs around the experience of being highly sensitive. ⁓ it's not just for parents, but but that's a place where you can kind of go and learn about all sorts of things. There's like ⁓ highly sensitive people of color writing things, there's people who have have experience with other aspects of neurodiversity. So they're like, you know, I'm autistic and have it and have and I'm an HSP. Like that's what this feels like for me. And so there can there can be a lot of comfort I think in just hearing other people's stories and seeing yourself in them. so again that's highly sensitiverefuge.com. Hsperson.com is sort of like the original website made by Dr. Elaine Aaron, who's like the the researcher around this trait. ⁓ you can take some questionnaires there and kind of like get a sense of what what the trait means and how it looks specifically for you, uniquely for you. And there are some blogs and some research on that site too, although it's not quite as like user-friendly, I think, as ⁓ highly sensitive refuge to find those like personal anecdotes. ⁓ and then I'll briefly plug my own ⁓ website as well because it's specifically for highly sensitive parents. It's ⁓ highly sensitiveparenthood.com. And I have plenty of free stuff on there, YouTube ⁓ and podcasts. They're kind of like short form podcasts for the most part, ⁓ but that's just highly Sensitive Parenthood podcast and highly sensitive parenthood on YouTube, and there's lots of just naming that can happen there. Sometimes people will write things in the comments, but even just me sharing, like, ⁓ I yes, I hear a lot of parents talk about XYZ, and then people feel less alone just knowing that they're they're not weird for having the experience or they don't need to be ashamed of having the experience of parenthood that they have. So those are a few places to start. ⁓ and and then I I do courses and coaching as well ⁓ for kind of a deeper dive. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): Thank you. Yeah, and I'll share all of this in the show notes. And also, Amy is so graciously offering 25 % off of her courses to self-schooled listeners. So I'll put that info in there too. But in particular, there's ⁓ a highly sensitive parenthood course, as well as, which we'll talk about also, raising highly sensitive kids. Right? So we've talked a lot about highly sensitive parenting and how that can show up. And also you might not feel as a parent like you yourself is highly sensitive, but maybe your kids are, right? Or maybe both the trifecta like I have is like my whole house is full of highly sensitive people. ⁓ But I wanna, before we move on to talking about highly sensitive children, you said something that I think is really important. I wanna make sure that folks are queuing into, we're talking about how it's unique. Amy Lajiness: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Heather DiNino (she/they): to you. So being a highly sensitive person does not look or show up just one way, right? So like, can you maybe talk about that a little? Different ways that it could show up, maybe different like folks that you've worked with and how that shows up differently for them. Amy Lajiness: That's right. Yes. Huh? Absolutely. Yeah. So like you know, ⁓ I'll start with a caveat that like there are plenty of amazing positive ways that high sensitivity shows up in parenting. But most people aren't reaching out to me for coaching or therapy saying like, let's talk about how amazing I am as a parent. And I definitely work to try to to try to point those things out. again, it's sort of like that those the attunement you have to your kids, the deep connection, the empathy, ⁓ the sort of emotional awareness of their needs or their physical needs, creating like a nice cozy physical environment, connection to nature. I could go on and on. But To name some of the some of the tough things that come up for people, ⁓ I would say the overstimulation piece is is by far the biggest. There are a couple other things that can come up around like decision making, around things like schooling. actually, this is very relevant to you, Heathers, around how schooling. And I've talked with a lot of parents around ⁓ whether they themselves are highly sensitive or they have highly sensitive kids or both, where again, that sort of intentionality and deep process. Around, I want to have this type of a family, or I want my house, my home, or my family, or my kids to feel like this. and so again, a huge gift that we're giving our children by showing up in that way, and also it can come to a place of like decision paralysis or like a grass is always greener kind of thing where where parents are hearing, well, I see that the outcomes at this school are better. better but also like socially emotionally my kid isn't doing as well and then like there there's this and there's that and there's a lot of kind of decision paralysis that can happen or a lot of anxiety about making a decision ⁓ and I see this show up around schooling I also see it show up a lot around ⁓ health children's health ⁓ decision making and and even just concern about like their well-being and again this is wonderful up A point, and then for a lot of parents, in my opinion, it kind of like crests the usefulness curve and goes into like a bit of a dysfunction, at least for the parents' experience, because they're they're you know listening to podcasts for hours a day, or they're staying up late googling using ⁓ I guess WebMD is like old school now, like using Chat GPT to like try to figure out what's wrong with my kid, or like that kind of thing. So that that's one way it shows up. I I I want to name though, too, like I think that the the ⁓ overstimulation part is so significant for people, and that shows up in very, very different ways. So I think I do have have a YouTube or or two about this in particular, and there's a graphic I'm thinking of that I made that ⁓ has all of these different like expressions of of things that point back to overstimulation. ⁓ so things like brain fog, fatigue, ⁓ Rage, which is something that a lot of highly sensitive parents may not have had experience with before. But it can feel very scary. I think especially ⁓ with the Clancy trial going on right now. There's more parents that are like, Am I going to just totally lose it? Am I gonna f fly off the deep end and and not be in control of myself? And again, that's a whole other conversation, but postpartum psychosis is its own very kind of distinct experience. ⁓ I will I will say that ⁓ and there is good information on that at postpartum support international website Let's see. So I named rage panic attacks was actually my experience of overstimulation. And so with my s after my second was born, ⁓ I I don't I didn't have like a traditional postpartum anxiety challenge, thankfully. I wasn't cognitively really focused on you know, things that could go wrong or fixating on things. I wasn't necessarily experiencing a lot of fear, but the overstimulation actually caused my body to have some giant panic attacks. And they were so huge, I went to the ER a couple times thinking like I like I I was blacking out. My vision was blacking out. Like I it was it was really scary. And I was already already a therapist at that point, but I hadn't ⁓ e I had to kind of put the pieces together for myself and and what I what I see it as. Now clinically is like, ⁓ my nervous system was just like it had blown the roof off. Like having two young children around had absolutely blown the roof off my nervous system. And so my body uniquely responded with a panic attack. For other people, it could be intense brain fog or fatigue or depression. For other people, it's like fits of rage, which can again feel very scary and shaming for them. But if we can point it back to this root cause of Overstimulation and and as a kind of sidecar, like perhaps a lack of adequate support and a lack of validating your own experience of overstimulation and overwhelm so that you're able to access the support that that would actually help you to feel better. That is a huge roadblock for people too. ⁓ You know, we can have a a number of different outcomes, but in my mind, f especially for the highly sensitive person, so much of it can come can be pointed back to that experience of sensory overstimulation as well as overwhelm with just with parenting in the modern society we have where many people are working outside the home or have other pressures on them, a caring for aging parents, ⁓ et cetera, et cetera, where adding a child or an a another child into the mix is just a an immense challenge and puts so much pressure on on our bodies and our minds and and and takes away some of that time that we might have had before to regulate and and really care for ourselves. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Amy Lajiness: So I see it show up in a lot of ways, but those are a couple of the the main ones that I can speak to right now. Think we're frozen again, so I'm just gonna sit. Okay, perfect. I kept talking and I just paused, so. Heather DiNino (she/they): ⁓ I'm back. I think it was only like 20 seconds, so I think we got most of it, which is good. And I was like taking notes as you were talking because so you when you went to the ER for a panic attack or for what for what your symptoms were, ⁓ I guess in general, it doesn't have to be just your specific experience. In general, do you feel that society is equipped to support highly sensitive people? Like, are people Amy Lajiness: Good. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): you know, are professionals equipped to know this is not just a panic attack that needs to be treated like here's an Ativan, take it and good best of luck to you. Or is there, and maybe like, have you seen this change over the years of your, you've been doing this for a while. So like, do you see a change in people becoming more aware? And I guess it's not just even high sensitivity, but if you're Amy Lajiness: Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): You talked really beautifully about how it stems from overstimulation and it can show up as rage or panic attack or total shutdown. For me, was like, hide under a blanket and is my husband gonna call the doctor and be like, I don't know what's happened to my wife. She is not the same person I married. Have things caught up in that way? Amy Lajiness: brain fog, whatever. Yes. Withdrawal. Think they are in the process of catching up. ⁓ I do think that like the broader societal conversation around neurodiversity in the last like two or three years has helped significantly. and I in that same time, it really has been like I yeah, maybe the last three years or so, more conversation around postpartum mental health, ⁓ parental mental health. Feel there's something else I was gonna say around that. But ⁓ and even things like this is this is a little separate, but things like perimenopause and menopause like have been a much more talked about in medical and ⁓ I lost Heather. I'm just gonna keep talking just in case. In medical and also in mental health environments. ⁓ so I do think that over the last few years there are more more providers and more professionals who have an awareness of of things like neurodiversity, of things like what challenges might arise in postpartum mental health, particularly. ⁓ That is my training, although I work mainly with parents, you know, across the the spectrum at this point of of parenthood. ⁓ But there are more ⁓ trainings. In fact, I was one of the first First cohorts to graduate with a postpartum mental health certification. And so that's something that just came up over the last ⁓ five or ten years is this postpartum mental health certification that didn't exist ⁓ prior to I don't know what year, but a few years ago. And so there are there are organizations filling in the gaps. There's professionals who are curious to learn. I mentioned earlier I have I do a continuing education for other professionals around how high sensitivity shows up. for parents and and and the postpartum period ⁓ specifically. And there's interest in that. People are taking it and people are applying it to their practice. So to answer your question, Heather, kind of baby steps towards that. But I think it's really provider dependent. you know there are people that don't that aren't gonna be aware and they're just gonna, yeah, like give you a an Atavan or whatever and say, like, sorry, you're dealing with a panic attack, and that's that's the end of the conversation. And there's other providers that will say, you know, hey, ⁓ what kind of support do you have? ⁓ do you have can I help connect you to a therapist? what about going to a breastfeeding, chest feeding group close by? Here's a flyer for one. What about ⁓ you know, getting additional support for through your child's school? Let me help you advocate for that. So I think if you're running and I'll just say to parents, like if you're running into not getting support, ⁓ or not having someone listen to you, there are ways to find kind of kindred spirits. and you know, the some of the resources I mentioned earlier are good for that. I'll plug to the ⁓ postpart of the PMHC. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): And trust your gut. Yeah, right. I mean, we have to really name that people are being taught not to listen to themselves and being taught not to listen to their bodies and what their bodies are telling them. And, you know, I'll share some of my own experience. Postpartum was very difficult. I definitely had postpartum depression on top of a very traumatic childbirth and long hospitalization stays on a lot of medical stuff. And I remember that not feeling like I could deal with the emotional part because I had to just like deal with the physical part, quite frankly. Like my focus was stay alive. Just let's just stay alive right now. Like and I remember going to a pediatrician appointment because I would feel like a bad parent if I didn't take my baby. You know, of course my husband's like, I'll take them. I'm like, no, I have to like this is what a good parent would do. I'm gonna take them. I remember at the pediatrician, a social worker. Amy Lajiness: Mm. Heather DiNino (she/they): Asking me if I was okay. And I had a hat on and sunglasses because I had a migraine, which is one of the ways that it will show up for me when my nervous system and I was overstimulated and all sorts of stuff. And I said, I just have a migraine, I'm fine. Right? Like I couldn't be like, actually I'm really depressed and overwhelmed and all these things. I could only name the physical symptoms because I think like we are kind of conditioned that like physical pain we can maybe name more than Amy Lajiness: Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): emotional pain. So I was like, I have a migraine. And I remember she said to my husband something that the only part I could hear was she's not okay and I'm gonna help you. ⁓ and the rest I couldn't hear. They they ended up talking kind of without me. The doctor was talking to me about my baby, probably knowing that I would focus on that. ⁓ I will be forever grateful for her recognizing that. And not shaming me and not saying, It's not just a migraine, you idiot. Like she right, like she could tell clearly. And her and my husband may have made eyes at each other at some point. Other than that, to like have already connected, where he was probably like, Please help me, like I don't know what to do. Because he kept asking me if I was okay. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. Everything's fine. ⁓ partly because it's hard to admit when we're not fine. Amy Lajiness: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): Partly because I didn't know what not fine meant. And partly because having a baby is freaking hard. So I was kind of like, I mean, I guess I'm fine. I'm also not fine, but aren't I supposed to be not fine? Like, I just had a baby. So of course I'm not great. But like, that's normal, right? You know, so I think it's it's hard to know the difference between ⁓ Amy Lajiness: Mm. Heather DiNino (she/they): What's a point that's kind of, yeah, this is rocky, but I can manage it, versus like reach out for support. And I guess my ⁓ my hope would be like just reach out for support. Because you can never not need it. Right? Like you can never not need it. And like you said, people aren't coming to you being like, I just want to let you know I'm having the best time ever with my kid. I'm a highly sensitive parent and I love how in tune I am. Amy Lajiness: Uh-huh. Yes. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): And I just want you to work with me so I can feel really proud about that. Like, right? That's I hope so. I mean, I right, that's the goal is for everyone to realize both sides and all the in-betweens, right? But people are finding you because it's difficult. And if there's difficult, like I don't know, there's just no, there's no downside to getting more support. There's no downside. There's no harm. Amy Lajiness: Right, right. No, that's that's usually n sometimes towards the end of of therapy I'll get that or coaching I'll get that, but yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): In getting more support. Amy Lajiness: Exactly. And and it doesn't it doesn't need to be competition of who needs it the most. And and that is something I hear almost universally from clients at some point is I know like I should just be grateful. I have a supportive partner. ⁓ at least my baby is alive. At least I didn't have this slightly more traumatic experience than the traumatic experience that I had in birth. Or well like whatever whatever the thing is. And okay, you know, something to be said for gratitude and and Heather DiNino (she/they): Yes, yes. Amy Lajiness: And you know, naming what is working, but like that is not helpful in it up to the point where it prevents people from accessing support because they're like technically getting through the day in some way, shape, or form. Like they're still alive at the end of the day. And it for I think for many of us, like We trick ourselves that that's that is acceptable. And so you know, if something is is feeling off, if you're like I don't feel like myself, or like I feel alone, or I'm noticing I'm seeing things really negatively. even you know, partner relationship stuff, parenting, work adjustments, like all of that stuff I see so much. And I just wanna name too, like I've been mentioning postpartum mental health just because that's what my official certification is ⁓ if you're looking for a provider that PMHC designation comes after whatever. I'm an LCSW licensed clinical social worker in California, but there's all sorts of providers that can have this PMHC. And that means we have specialized training in postpartum mental health. However, if you are a parent who has kids like my kids age or Heather's kids' age, you can still look for somebody who specializes in that. They ha they have this sense of parenting Or you can still go back. Sometimes we see people who are older, whose kids are grown, who want to process what was going on at that stage of their life. Or parents who are adjusting. My my own kid is ⁓ my older kid is in middle school. Like that is its own rebirth of sorts. ⁓ and so there's not a bad time to reach out for support. ⁓ and sometimes those like narratives that were established early in parenthood. Heather DiNino (she/they): ⁓ yeah. Amy Lajiness: ⁓ just because of the immense pressure that that period ⁓ involves for people. Again, whether whether you had your child biologically, whether you adopted at birth, whether you formed your family in some other way, that initial like touch-in with your child and adjustment to parenting with that that new person is is significant and it's can it's can be so beautiful and it can also bring up a whole bunch of stuff. ⁓ that can resound for years, some of it lovely, some of it more challenging. And so I'll just say there's never a bad time to to reach out for support. ⁓ what do you have to lose really? Heather DiNino (she/they): There's never there's never a bad time and there's never a bad reason. Right. And and also I think really establishing a relationship with someone is important. So even if things are going great, but you know that, well, a couple years ago or a couple months ago, maybe it wasn't, and you're like, what if that comes back? Well, start a relationship now with someone, right? So they know the great and then they're also already there. Amy Lajiness: That's right. Heather DiNino (she/they): To make that like up and down a little bit more smooth. We're not no one's trying to get rid of the ups and downs, but to help you through it, which is sometimes just holding your hand or holding space through a really tricky time. I mean, parenting is tough. so you know, we've talked a lot about highly sensitive parents. And I'm curious, I mean, first of all, like our traits, do you know if they're hereditary? Amy Lajiness: Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): Like is there are so Amy Lajiness: Yeah. So the highly sensitive trait is about 50% hereditable. So yeah, I mean I I'm sure it depends on kind of like you know other factors as well. But for me, I have one kid. My husband is not highly sensitive. I have one kid who's highly sensitive, one who's not. So the math maths in that in our particular situation. Heather DiNino (she/they): Interesting. Yeah. Yep. Amy Lajiness: ⁓ but yeah, it's it's it is hereditary, and ⁓ I'm gonna nerd out for a moment. It is evolutionarily conserved, which means it is not a mistake that there are highly sensitive people in the world. It is actually a benefit to society, to the people in our communities to have highly sensitive people. ⁓ and I just love that so much because so often people have been to. Told you're too sensitive, why are you crying so much? You just stop feeling this way, blah blah blah blah blah. Like whatever the narratives we get. And in fact, throughout history, highly sensitive folks have been crucial to society. Like we think about, I've I've done work in like mediation earlier in my career, and I'm a darn good mediator. Like I can hear different people's perspectives, I can hear the thing, I can sense the things that are not said, I can pull together and find consensus. That's just one example, but like Think about how important that could be in like you know, intercommunity or intertribal relations right throughout human history. ⁓ noticing little changes in climate or your environment, very useful if you are living outdoors a lot of the time, like we were through much of human history. so think about ⁓ think about highly sensitive people historically as sort of like the shamans, the the the medicine men and women, the the prophets. the peacemakers, the the artists, the meaning makers. Ugh, I could go on and on. But like we still can be those. We are those things now too. We're just not necessarily in a society that like elevates them on the whole. Heather DiNino (she/they): And it's on purpose. Like it's on purpose and we need it. I mean, we just lost Dolly Parton. What an idol she was. Like she, when you said mediator, like I mean she could get anyone in a room to like it's doesn't matter what you agree on or what you feel, like she could get the people in the room and fill it with love. And I feel like I don't know whether she identified as an HSP or not, but that's the vibe we need right now more than ever. We need people to Amy Lajiness: Yes. Heather DiNino (she/they): Be in a room together and and connect, mediate, talk through stuff, problem solve, feel, you know, like these are not things that are problems. These are things that are on purpose. ⁓ and so for our kids, I think now that we know more, you know, I don't think our generation was raised with the same knowledge about sensitivity. ⁓ and I think we lost some along the way because I think that past. Amy Lajiness: ⁓ huh. Heather DiNino (she/they): ⁓ indigenous folks especially recognized sensitivity as strength, recognized different roles that different folks could play. And I think that we've maybe lost some of that and now we're getting it back because now science backs it, right? Now science is showing us what it is and how purposeful it is and how important it is. So how does high sensitivity Amy Lajiness: Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): potentially show up in children. Amy Lajiness: Yeah, I mean again it's it's it can show up in so many ways, I would say. ⁓ and I'll talk through it, but if you are a parent that's wondering if your child might be highly sensitive, go to go to the website hsperson.com. And I wanna say you go to the little tab that says like questionnaires or something like that. And there is one specifically for highly sensitive kids. And you know, you can fill it out. But even if you just read through it, you get a sense of kind of how those traits show up for kids. I would say a lot of what parents notice is things like i it is the sensory piece. So like kids who are like this shirt, I don't like this shirt. It's too stiff. Or like the tag is poking me. So there's some of that sensory stuff, ⁓ which again can overlap with with other things like autism and ⁓ some other sensory ⁓ challenges as well. So it doesn't necessarily mean like, ⁓ my gosh, this person's a hundred percent highly sensitive. But again, there's it's a big old Venn diagram mess. Like there's it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful mess. So so some of that sen sensory sensitivity stuff, also to noise is another one that shows up a lot for parents too. And and so if you're a parent who struggles with high sensitivity, ⁓ don't be shy about wearing earplugs around your kids. They have the noise reducing earplugs. That makes a world of difference if you can get past the like guilt around but the you know, my kids might have heart feelings that I'm doing it, but the amount of regulation that it's gonna offer you can be really useful. ⁓ Same thing with kids. So you might see the kids wearing kind of like the large headphones or even earplugs to help support with managing the the noise, the auditory input. And ⁓ to some extent it can show up as like emotional dysregulation. Although I'll add to a lot of highly sensitive kids kind of have this like old soul vibe to them also. So they're they have that awareness they'll like say these really profound things. They kind of get things that seem beyond their years. ⁓ they might be very tuned in to other people's emotions. in fact, I've connected with a gal named Kelsey Boyd. Kelsey Boyd Bennett, Kelsey Bennett Boyd, who wrote a children's book about this for highly sensitive kids called Aria and Everyone Else's Feelings. And she has a read-through on YouTube, so you can check it out. ⁓ And that's that it talks about how she's this child is kind of like going through her day and like has these are friends, people she connects with her neighbors, and she just comes home and is like filled up with other people's anxiety or excitement, and her body just doesn't really know. What to do with it, and so the book kind of walks you through like some different tools to to kind of ⁓ to process that with with a kid or that a kid can use on their own. So so that like deep empathy and sensory awareness ⁓ can show up. and sometimes it can look a little bit like shyness too. It's it's there are slightly more introverted HSPs than extroverted, but there can be extroverted HSPs as well. Like that, that ⁓ kind of hanging back and kind of like the pause to check is a very HSP thing for parents and kids. ⁓ where we're just kind of like observing. Like you walk into a room and you're kind of like, huh, okay, like what's the vibe here? Who is here? And kids do that too, you know, on the playground or new setting, they're like, Okay, how are these kids talking to each other? Okay, that kid's really loud. No, thank you. Okay, ⁓ that kid's interested in this, and they're okay, maybe I'll try that, but they're not the kid that. that will usually not the kid that's just gonna run in and start engaging. They're gonna kind of look around and observe and and and so just expect that that's that's the case and you can encourage it. it's good for them to do that. So I could keep talking. But those are some of the things that kids are exhibiting. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah, so I'm wondering in that situation when you have a kid, especially if you're maybe, you know, if you're an HSP yourself, you're probably seeing this in your kid and and recognizing it and kind of maybe more in tune with why they're doing it. So maybe you're like, that's great, they're taking a minute, that's great, they're looking, pause and check, all good. But what about if parents kind of don't ⁓ understand? Like, why isn't my kid just Why can't they just run and play? Why can't they just, you know, why stop watching? Go do. ⁓ I used to teach kids yoga and I always said, ⁓ participation is optional. You are invited to do whatever I'm offering you to do. ⁓ internet's weird again. You there? Amy Lajiness: I'm hearing you. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): ⁓ there you are. Amy Lajiness: I was hearing all that. Yeah. Yeah, you said participation is optional. Heather DiNino (she/they): ⁓ good. Yeah. So invitation. Absolutely. Like participation is optional because watching is learning. Watching is important. Observing, they are taking it all in. And usually if we gave the time and space, at some point that kid would just start doing every single thing we were doing because they had already been taking it in for all those weeks. But what do you say to the parent that's like, do the thing? Like just go run to the playground. Just go do you like why why aren't you doing anything? Like, what would what would you say? Like yeah. Amy Lajiness: Yeah. Yeah, so I speak to this ⁓ quite a bit more in the in the course that I have supporting your highly sensitive child, but there's this really interesting kind of Balancing act that we have as parents of highly sensitive kids, where we want to honor their sensitivity and and the challenges that come up. And also we want to build their resilience. We want them to fit in-ish, you know, enough to like be healthy and happy kids. we want we want them to be able to it to grow and enjoy new things, right? And so there's this idea of sort of like, how do we build resilience in our kids in a way that actually works and doesn't Doesn't traumatize them, doesn't cause them to shut down, to run away, to refuse to engage ever again. ⁓ and so this concept of like a like a window of tolerance, I talk about a bit where you know, and we have this too as adults, like often ours is a little bigger, but like let's say you know your kids is kind of tiny, and for them, you know, walking into a a new location with a one friend that they already know, that might be a little bit Bit outside their window of tolerance, but they can potentially do it. And so when they do that, their window of tolerance grows a little bit. They're building resilience, they're building confidence, ⁓ they're building a sense of self efficacy. Hooray! That's a win, right? What heck what can happen, and especially ⁓ not to throw non HSP parents under the bus, but when when a parent doesn't recognize that their kid's not trying to be like willfully disobedient or like just like. like rude and like d disobedient and and mean, they'll be like, go why don't you go run around with all these new kids in this completely new situation? Like I think of like Chuck E. Cheese like David Busters, like Torture for an H for a lot of HSPs. and the parents like, go, go, come on, come on. Well, the kids window of tolerance is here and you're asking them to be out here, right? Like that's way too far. They're gonna shut down. It's it is simply too much to process. their nervous system i it doesn't allow for this sort of like gentle growth of the window of tolerance that that is what we're aiming for. And so it's a really important concept for us to understand as parents. And I do think some critics will see it. You mentioned you use this phrase, Heather, when we talked initially, ⁓ of the this like permissive free-for-all, where it's like parents will see like this, like keeping them in their window of tolerance some of the time as like you're just allowing your kid to like be comfortable all the time. They're never gonna grow. Well, that having them be in comfortable situations is really important. And then sprinkling in some things that are slightly outside their window of tolerance, very high. Healthy. That balance needs to be there though. And I think a lot of parents ⁓ who who might not understand that might push their kids too hard. And I I sadly have seen it lead, especially in like older kids, to like real dysfunction between the parent and child. And ⁓ because there's just this lack of understanding. So the parent misguidedly thinks they're like encouraging and supporting their child and like growing and and and trying new things. And meanwhile, the child just feels completely ⁓ un unheurt unlistened to, unsupported, essentially like pushed off a cliff in terms of like their emotion ability to manage it. So ⁓ that's a kind of a worst case scenario, but it's illustrates how important getting that balance or at least aiming for that balance is. I have made that mistake so many I've made I've fallen off that balance ⁓ time and time again. And there's times where I'm like, ⁓ I pushed too hard, or like probably should have pushed a little harder. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Amy Lajiness: I need to like give give them a little more time downtime and that time inside the window of tolerance before we try again. So you're gonna make mistakes. That's fine. That's that's part of finding this like this kind of kind of narrow path forward with this ⁓ resilience building and ⁓ and and also making sure that they feel heard and supported. Heather DiNino (she/they): It sounds like reflection would be really important in between those times where you're stretching the window of tolerance a little bit and you're noticing, all right, that went pretty well. Pat on the back for both of us. You're reflecting, like, okay, that was a little push that went okay. ⁓ or maybe you push too much and you notice it didn't go great. And then you're reflecting, okay, noted. I right, we're human. We ⁓ and maybe even being honest with your kid, hey, maybe I shouldn't have pushed so hard. That didn't go so well. What what was going on there for you? ⁓ but just reflecting helps that balance not swing wildly to one side or the other. Right? It helps keep the balance of finding what is going to work for that relationship. ⁓ Amy Lajiness: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I completely agree and I would add it serves to d those check-ins can serve to reinforce when things do go well. And so for example, if you like encourage your child to try out for or like, you know, go out for a new sport or something and they they manage to do it and feel somewhat okay about it, even just acknowledging, hey, I know that was a little outside of your comfort zone, but it was really cool to see you out there and proud of you. Ding, like you plant a little seed. It doesn't mean that th they're never gonna, you know, that they're like always gonna be thrilled to try something new. But you're acknowledging that they're capable of doing things a bit outside their comfort zone. So yeah, it's an opportunity to reinforce that. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah, and are HSPs ⁓ with feeling big and having, you know, potentially feeling other people's feelings, empathy and all that stuff, are they, you know, would it be fair to say that they care a lot about how their adult ⁓ feels about them and thinks about them? Not that of course all all kids do and all humans do, right? Amy Lajiness: Yes. ⁓ yes. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): But I'm just picturing that like planting that little seed could be actually so unbelievably important for that kiddo that's highly sensitive because ⁓ highly sensitive kids can often be ⁓ people pleasers. Like they want to make their people happy because they want everyone to be feeling stable and decent so that they can also feel stable and decent. but that can sometimes lead. Amy Lajiness: Very much. Heather DiNino (she/they): to potential masking because they're gonna perform instead of like be authentic if they get scared of I don't wanna do anything to upset the apple cart kind of thing. Have you seen that in in highly sensitive kids? Amy Lajiness: All right. Yes, and all of what you just said can also be applied to adults. Like the people pleasing is is a huge, huge thing. And and you know, perfectionism, kind of a certain flavor of perfectionism, I'd say, is is common among HSPs as well, kids and adults. And yeah, I think that masking piece is so interesting, and that's something that's entered the conversation more recently as well. To me, it's so it's fascinating how that interfaces with this idea of of the window of tolerance and that in that we may we may find ourselves masking for a moment or two and want and then choosing to kind of like take it off or for feeling it out is it safe and so I do think that Probably a lot of a lot of folks, ⁓ neurodivergent folks feel this way as well. But for some HSPs, it's kind of safer to mask at least initially, and then we see, can I can I get to a place where I can take it off? So I don't I don't I'm not someone who thinks masking is like bad all the time. We need to I think it's a useful tool, but we don't want to live in that mask, right? Like we we just want to use it to protect for a moment or for a period of time, and then if we s say, wow, I don't feel safe enough to take this mask off. we are probably too far outside of our our window of tolerance and that's not the right fit for us right now, whether we're an adult or whether we're seeing our kid ⁓ masking. However, I think about like we we just finished kind of back to school stuff ⁓ out here in California and there's so many, especially the littles. Like I have a a nephew who's in kinder and ⁓ just total HSP, like such a sweet, deep feeling little one. And ⁓ he had he had trouble adjusting to school, probably because he's just masking so hard all day. And ⁓ it could be a whole conversation about kind of like schooling and kind of environments for HSV kids. I that's maybe another podcast, Heather. But but but yeah, like no wonder because that be wearing that mask all day or for most of the day is not healthy. But for some kids where that type of school environment is is ⁓ perhaps a better fit, they might mask a bit at first just to kind of observe to get the lay of the land and then they connect with someone. ⁓ that mask slips off. They feel ⁓ supported. Their teacher, ⁓ they can take it off a little bit. So ⁓ yeah, it's such an interesting idea of like how how masking shows up and how how do we recognize it as parents? And frankly, a lot of the time, with especially with little ones, it's like we see we see when they take off the mask that, like, wow, the stuff that's been building up, and then we're like, Whoa, that's that's a lot. But if we can see it for what it is, ⁓ just like how for for adults we we can look at ourselves and say, ⁓ my gosh. I'm super foggy, or like I just had this like rage, and there there can be guilt or frustration about the like the outward stuff, but if we are able to point it back for ourselves or for our kids to like, ⁓ honey, you just had a really hard overstimulating day. No wonder you're having trouble holding it together. What can we do to take care of you? Speaking that to ourselves or to our kids is so important. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. speaking it to ourselves. So that's so good. Speaking it to ourselves or speaking it to our kids. And for those kids that have been masking, because that is their reality, if they need to do that to feel protected and safe, I wonder what could help them after school. Like I I wonder if they, you know, are are gonna be in that environment, like what could help them after to help them ⁓ not Amy Lajiness: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): blow up in your face, but rather like proactively, like, how can they ⁓ decompress? Are there kind of things that work well for folks? Am I the only one that likes to hide under a blanket? Like I imagine kids and forts are like a big thing. I know my kids love a good fort to decompress. Amy Lajiness: No. Yeah. A fort's a great idea. Yeah. Yeah. No, and I had a it's funny, I had a lot of ⁓ I always think about I had so many moms, ⁓ especially during COVID, say that they were hiding in their closets, which is like kind of the grown-up version of a fort, you know, just like, ⁓ it's it's contained, it's quiet, nobody's gonna find me in there, you know, it's dark. I can kind of Heather DiNino (she/they): Until they do. Amy Lajiness: Until they do, until they do, exactly. ⁓ but there's something about those kind of like small, cozy spaces that can be really nice. my my kid who's highly sensitive learned ⁓ early on to kind of just like almost like tuck himself in or like use a weighted blanket on the couch or or even like on in his bed, like go up to his room and like lay down and read for a little bit after school. ⁓ so it again it really kind of depends on the kids. For some kids, if their high sensitivity is Is overlapped with with ⁓ maybe some more like sensory input needs. So my other kid, not an HSP, but like he's one of those kids that will jump like 200 times into a beanbag in a row and it just like feels amazing for him. So he has some other stuff going on. ⁓ but for him like the regulating thing is movement. Like he just needs to run around and roll around on the grass, maybe do some sort of a sport or an activity where his body's moving. And this can be true for HSPs as well. Some of them really do need like that movement if they've been sitting all day. Other times if they've been around, you know, in a classroom sitting down a lot of the day and and just needing to process a lot, they might just want that silence and like that alone time. the the weighted blanket compression can be really nice. Some gentle music can be really nice. I encourage people and I have a little ⁓ part of the module in my course that talks about like making these little coping kits too. So it's It's like just having something like in a little cozy corner where you can sit down and you have your favorite book and you have something that smells nice and you have like your your like weighted stuffed animal or your ⁓ your earplugs or whatever and it's just like it's a space where you can come and recalibrate and this is great for adults and it's also great for parents to to create with kids ⁓ so that they so it's not on the parent to Regulate them sometimes. We are involved, and sometimes the parent is like, ⁓ my gosh, I've been working all day, or like I've been in my own high pressure situation, and like I want to be there for my kid, but my capacity is limited, or I have to make dinner, I have to do something else, and it's helpful to have some other kind of supports in place so that so that they're not only turning to us to help them regulate. We are part of that, but we should not be the only source of regulation for them. Heather DiNino (she/they): For sure. Yeah. A lot of what you're saying reminds me of this amazing duo out of Rhode Island that talks about ⁓ a lot of classrooms do like a calm corner, but some some folks need a spa and some need a gym, right? And so there's like there's the kids that need the spa and they need the quiet fort and the peacefulness or music or something that smells nice, the breathing buddy, you know, all these like tools. And there's other kids that need a gym and that need Amy Lajiness: Yes Heather DiNino (she/they): to jump and bounce and roll around on the ground and lift heavy things and be active. ⁓ and there's obviously kids who need both and it depends on the moment or the day. ⁓ and and same with parents. There's some of us that want to go get a massage. There's some of us that want to go join the adult softball team. So there's like all ranges of ways that we can get support, ways that we can support ourselves and our kids. And it's about finding what works For you and for your kid. I wanna. ⁓ Yes, please. Yes, please. Because it requires repeated practice. Which, like, I've been practicing for years and years, and damn, it still shows up. ⁓ I wanna loop back to one thing before we wrap up, which is this window of tolerance you talked about, right? So, this window of tolerance, there's something a little bit outside. Amy Lajiness: Yeah. And then not shaming yourself for it, right? I'm I'll just keep bringing it up because it's it is ubiquitous for the HSPs. So Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): And you can maybe stretch and it can grow a little bit bigger. And there's this window of tolerance. And if something is like way outside, too big of a stretch, what are the impacts that you see there with that, like what happens to that window? Amy Lajiness: Well, I think at times it can kind of snap back. ⁓ And and and it can shrink a little bit f out of self-protection, right? It's like a it's a bit of a maybe like a lowercase T trauma response to to something that's so far outside, we're like, well, if my parent made me do this thing that's so far outside, I'm gonna just shrink even more and I'm not gonna do anything close to what is going what you know, what might be outside my window of tolerance. So that is a potential impact. I mean, I don't wanna scare people. Like I said, you will mess up. Like you will we all do ⁓ You will have periods where you don't stretch your kids enough potentially, which has its own consequences. ⁓ you will have periods where you s you ask too much of them and you have to dial it back. ⁓ communication with your with your child is key, even when they're little, about that. so there can be that that snapping back. I think in some cases, especially when it's like a chronic lack of listening, when a parent is not listening to their child about whether it's their their child is verbally saying. No, I don't want to do this, or ⁓ reacting in some sort of other way, like a, you know, a a tantrum or or anger or s like sickness or or physical responses. you know, it can lead to some lack of trust. It doesn't feel good to have somebody force you to do something, or not listen to you when you say, I don't want to do that and I I do think it's tricky because even as adults, like I think about as an adult, like there's some things that I'm like, ⁓ like don't I don't wanna do that. Don't make me do it and then like once it's done or once I've gone for it with some encouragement or like someone else being like, Come on, come on, go for it, go for it. I'm like, ⁓ Okay, like, yeah, that actually was really nice. That, yeah, I'm glad I did that. Or that really helped me in some way. And there's times where somebody is pushing, and I'm like, are you not hearing what I'm saying? I feel totally invalidated. And so we can think about this from our own experience too as adults, that like There's not it's so tricky because there's not one universal way to respond when our kids put up put up some resistance. ⁓ it is not always it in their best interest to give in and say, sure, like if you don't want to do that, then you don't have to do that at all. It is certainly not in their best interest to d not listen to that at all and and continue pushing every single time. There's this like middle of the road and I do think that's what a lot of like what a lot of parenting advice and stuff on social media doesn't necessarily Isn't honest about that there's that middle ground where we're just we're I don't say making it up as we go along, but we're we're giving our best guess about what is actually going to be the loving and supportive thing for our child in that situation. ⁓ I think about my kids like going to swim lessons, for example, and I have one of my kids was with like, actually really love swimming now, but put up a huge fuss one summer when I when I tried to put him in lessons. And so I did Because his response was so strong, I was like, okay, we're just not gonna this is not the time. ⁓ it was big enough that I trusted it's gonna be harmful to continue pushing on this. a year or two later, I tried again at a different place, smaller ratio, kind of indoors with with ⁓ a different instructor and He ended up really loving it. ⁓ he was he was at first like, why did you sign me up for this? I don't I don't want it. I don't swimming. And I was like, okay, let's just go. Let's look, let's meet Mr. Tim, your swim instructor, and see how it goes. And he ended up just adoring it and having a fantastic time. And so in both of those situations, I was I was observing him. What was he actually giving off and was his in the second time his reluctance was not as strong and ⁓ and I offered some support and some like ways out around it. Like we can just kind of watch at at first and it was uncomfortable at times to kind of get him involved, but it ended up being a it this type of experience versus a out here type of experience. Sometimes we don't know until it's done. Heather DiNino (she/they): I think we could also No, I mean there is no one right answer. It is about finding the middle road. Is it is it it's about reflecting, observing, noticing things that can be tricky in this really busy driven society coming in and telling us like just do the thing and do it right and do it the first time and and you know, it's ⁓ not always set up for us to succeed, I feel like, and not always set up for these Amy Lajiness: Yes. Heather DiNino (she/they): Softer skills that I find to be unbelievably important. and I'm also thinking that there's never shame in reflecting on your own parenting and realizing, ⁓ I was pushing them too hard. Let's have a conversation about that. Like, maybe I'm gonna talk to my kid about, you know what? Like, I was doing the I I th I was doing what I thought was best. And I was pushing you because I thought it was what was best for you. And maybe it's not. Can we talk about that? I mean, there's no shame in being human and recognizing, like, you know, I'm learning and I'm I'm learning about you and I'm learning about myself. Right. Because we as parents also have a window of tolerance and it can be uncomfortable to be afraid that if we don't push our kids, they're never gonna learn. Amy Lajiness: Uh-huh. Heather DiNino (she/they): Or they're never gonna ⁓ do hard things, you know? So I always assume best intentions and also like when you know better, do better kind of thing, right? So it's like if you're if you're learning about this and you're like, ⁓ I've definitely like my kids are definitely highly sensitive and I definitely pushed them too hard, like, okay, cool. It's never too late. Never too late. So yeah. Amy Lajiness: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. Welcome to the club. Yeah. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): ⁓ Amy, we're we're gonna wrap up and we're gonna schedule more episodes because I could talk about this all day, as I'm sure you could as well. ⁓ I'm gonna put you s you gave so many resources. So I'm gonna make sure that we include all of those resources in the show notes. And I also really highly encourage people to reach out for support to anyone. Amy Lajiness: Okay. Yeah. Yes. Heather DiNino (she/they): And especially Amy, like I've gotta say the stuff that she has on there, there's a lot of free resources on there. And using the 25% discount for the courses, I just think it so beautifully encapsulates us as highly sensitive parents and also ⁓ raising highly sensitive kids. Right. And I see another episode where we can talk about that intersection of like. non-HSPs raising HSPs, HSP raising HSP. Like it's there's just so much intersection there. And obviously I could nerd out about neurodiversity and school environments, learning environments. Like there are so many things we could talk about. So all that to say, Amy, thank you. Amy Lajiness: Yes. Absolutely, yeah. And the and I offer, just to clarify, I offer coaching too, and that's for anyone. I know some of your listeners are on the East Coast and my therapy practice is only for California residents, unfortunately, but the coaching, the coupon works for coaching as well, and I'd love to connect. ⁓ I just love supporting kind of those like micro or or ⁓ medium changes in people's lives, whether they're a highly sensit sensitive parent or whether they're parenting an HSB kid or or both, like me. ⁓ so I'd love to connect. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Amy Lajiness: with you and Heather will drop that stuff in the show notes. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah, anyway that works to find support, right? Like through coaching, through courses, through the free resources that are on there. I mean, there's it's like a menu that you could just choose what works for you. ⁓ Amy, thank you so much for being on self-schooled. I can't wait to continue this conversation. Amy Lajiness: Same here, Heather. Thanks for spending the last hour or so with me. It's been delightful. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah.