Latest / This Week in Westchester: The Podcast / Westchester, Explained 18: Exploring Abolition Day in NY with Historian Joyce Cole

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Westchester, Explained 18: Exploring Abolition Day in NY with Historian Joyce Cole · This Week in Westchester: The Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: On this episode, which we are releasing a few days early in commemoration of New York State Abolition Day, we explore a chapter of history that many Westchester residents may not know.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Joined by my friend and friend to the podcast, Austin Village historian Joyce Cole, we discuss the history of slavery in New York and the nuanced road to abolition and the people whose labor, resilience, and pursuit of freedom helped shape Westchester County and New York State.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: We also examine why recognizing this history is essential to understanding our communities today, while celebrating local efforts to preserve and shape these important stories.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Join us as we catch up with Joyce and reflect on our shared past, the meaning of freedom, and why it matters to Westchester residents.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is Westchester explained.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: So let's begin.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we are here in the podcast studio today, a little bit earlier than we normally come out in the week, but we have a special guest.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: We have special news.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, you're like a reoccurring guest.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're regular now.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: So Joyce Cole is back in the studio, Austin Village Historian.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: We are here to talk about New York State's abolition commemoration day.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: But before we get to that, um, you got some very exciting news this week.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I want you to share with everyone.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Catherine.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was really excited to receive a call from Quentin Tice, who was the reporter at ABC News that worked on two segments with.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: He actually worked with three segments with me, one on the Leatherman, one on Lewis Brady, uh, a man who self-emancipated and found his way into Austin and the Rising Sun Golf and Country Club in Ausning, uh, the first black-owned uh in the Great Depression.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Incredible.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: But he said the two pieces, the Rise and Sun and Lewis Brady story, were nominated for Emmys.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: So exciting.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So exciting.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just tell everyone real quick.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the first one, Losing History of the Rising Sun, um, was nominated for an Emmy for diversity, equity, inclusion, short form content.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And as you mentioned, WABC TV.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Quentin Tice did the report.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: He was nominated for that one.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second one, the Lewis Brady Day, also nominated for an Emmy, uh WCBS TV, Quentin Tice, historical, cultural, short form content.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: I am just blown away.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's so unbelievable.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: These are stories that um are legendary within the Osman community, within the county.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: You put light on them, you put so much light on them, and now they're nominated for an Emmy.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's just wild.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: That is wild.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's wild.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's wild and it's surreal.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so happy that these stories are getting the acknowledgement and exposure that they deserve.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was an incredible part of our history.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Lewis Brady touched every piece of American history that I can think of, from George Washington to the Underground Railroad to self-emancipation and self-made man.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he was the oldest living man in Austin, died at 108 years old, and at 107 told the story of his life.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how I was able to trace him through genealogy to bring his living descendants back to Austin to get their history, connect him with them.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's was, I mean, I rewatched the segment and I was just blown away.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And for anybody listening, you can literally just Google it and it pops right up.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: But can you tell people quickly what that story was about and then the rising sun, what that was about as well?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So Lewis Brady, um, everyone in Austin knew about him, but they just knew that he uh was in the war.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: He was in the war of 1812, and that he was an oysterman, but they didn't know much.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: His father was enslaved by George Washington.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: He found his way to Austin by way of the Quakers, utilizing the system of the Underground Railroad.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he was on his way to Staten Island, but got turned away.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And our blessing is that he ended up in our community and he built a great life.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he left behind breadcrumbs in an article when he was 107 uh when they interviewed him about his life.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I took that, did a genealogical tree, found his living descendants, and was able to bring his entire family back to him to connect them with the past.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they had no idea.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they were where are they living now?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: I forgot.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're all over the place.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's some in Peakskill, there's some down south.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then it culminated into a wonderful moment of naming the street after honorary street naming of Captain Louis Brady.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: My favorite part of that segment is when his, I guess it's probably his great-grandchildren or great-great-grandchildren were saying that they felt that they really needed to do they needed to accomplish something in their life because their ancestor had done so much, like set the bar so high.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: They were so cute about it.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: They were really, it's just, it's a great story of American history.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's American history.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's so evident that each person, you can go back in your family and look how you are such a piece of the puzzle.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that family can look and say, I touched every point of American history, and that makes me so very American.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so very American.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second piece that was nominated is about the Rising Sun Golf Club, which is now we know it as Hudson Hills, which is the County Golf Club County Golf Course, excuse me.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Can you explain what that story was about?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so shout out to Newcastle because it was actually New York City.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: We forgot to mention Newcastle.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: I have to shout out.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Victoria.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it wasn't Newcastle Ausning.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: It is today.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Austin address Newcastle technically.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but the Rise and Sun Golf and Country Club was owned and operated for a short period by a black investment group.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: This investment group was not just um for the golf club.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: They it was a larger project they were working on to build better lives for black people, to make them a part of contributing parts of Westchester County.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So even having uh other businesses and uh getting them into jobs, like being the first deputy sheriff, came out of that group of people as well for Westchester County.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: But this golf club was a place they wanted to play a sport that they were not welcomed in typically.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: So they built this posh, and I mean we heard them most posh uh golf and country club that brought the who's who in black uh life up to.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we had Ethel Waters and the Cotton Club band came up, and they were building this magnificent place and against a lot of odds.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: They tried to get them out of there, but they were able to successfully run it for a season before they were forced out.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that deserves to be commemorated.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: It says it's so interesting because literally, maybe two weeks ago, one of my husband's friends texted him and said, Did you know that uh Hudson Hills used to be the Rising Sun Golf Club?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, my husband was like, Yes, I did know that.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just it's such a great story, and I think it really resonates with so many people.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a core uh course that we know today.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And to know that it had this incredible uh history and it's it's a sad piece of American history, but also a piece of American history that shows what's possible.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's a beautiful piece, and you shed light on it for the whole, for the whole ABC 7, you know, listening viewership.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna be following the Emmys.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're so excited.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: I hope they both win.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: They both deserve to win.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Quentin Tice did an incredible job.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and like I said, if anybody who's listening wants to see these pieces, um, you could just Google them, you can come to the county page, and they'll be there as well.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: But we're exciting.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: We're watching the Emmys.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So exciting.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's get into um why we're here today.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, the podcast is coming out a little bit early this week because Monday is New York State's abolition commemoration day.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's always observed on the second Monday in July.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: What is it, Joyce?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: So this is so important.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to be honest and upfront, when I grew up, I thought enslavement was a southern problem.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: We were not taught that slavery happened in New York and that was a southern problem, but we had on our, you know, our capes and our halos because we were the land of the abolitionist.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: But it was, I mean, I was floored to find out that enslavement, what slavery was here in our county, in our state.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, what New York State Abolition Commemoration Day is, is a time to reflect about the freedom seekers, the abolitionists, the people that endured and sacrificed and toiled in New York State and to bring um this history to light because it was hidden for so long.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we can get into what that looked like in New York because most people don't know.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: We do not know.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to get into what it looked like in New York, but first I'm just curious why was it hidden?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's the Southern problem.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: We've for the longest time, I mean, we're we're not comfortable being uncomfortable as a society.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're not.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're not.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we have not grappled with and atoned for that stain in our history.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if we don't have to claim it, we're not going to.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna, because for a long time, we were in a place of enslavement, but we were also turned into a place of refuge and abolition.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that is comfortable.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: That makes you a little bit of a hero.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you rather stay in that vein than to talk about that thing that happened that we really don't like.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let's talk about the thing that happened that we really don't like.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: What did it look like here in New York?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So um, surprisingly, uh, it's so different uh and so nuanced uh here.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the first enslaved Africans came to New York when we were New Amsterdam into the city, which would turn into the city.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this is 1626.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: They're coming in, a small group of them.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And at that time, they really weren't called the enslaved, they were the indentured servants that were not paid, but they were indentured.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: And they even petitioned for their freedom, including that of their wives.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And they it was provisional, they were um able to have that.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: But they said in that um permission that your heirs, so any children that you produce out of that marriage of your uh manumission will be enslaved.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: So they could be free, but their children could their children will be enslaved.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and they had to pay a fee for their freedom.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if they missed a payment, they're back into the condition of enslavement.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And this happened in New York City.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: In the 1600s.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh then we come to later in the 1600s, 1640, 46, I believe, when the British took over.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we had the Dutch first, then the British, and they were harsher in their uh treatment of the enslaved and in and particularly in their laws.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was a huge, huge deal in New York.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: The economy built by enslaved hands.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the land had to be cleared.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: That land was cleared by the enslaved people.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And they're in the city and they're growing the crop.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now they're taking care of their enslavers, they're growing the crop to clear uh to feed their enslaver, they're clearing the land so then we can have all these wonderful places like Wall Street and Broadway, all done by enslaved labor.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, but if we bring that up to Westchester, from the very moment of white settlement in Westchester County, there were enslaved people.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So in the first 1600s, um, I think it's mid-1600 census, the British census in Westchester, there were about 900 uh European settlers and about 150 enslaved people.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So enslaved people have been in this county from the onset.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and where were they?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh any specific towns or areas?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I tell the people when we're we're talking about what we used to look like, like erase all these wonderful beautiful buildings and streets and roads.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: We were farm, you know, farmland.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And woods.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: The difference between enslavement in the south and enslavement in the north, um, it looked different.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you have these big farms, like for us, Frederick the Fred, the Phillips family owned so much land from Spite and Dival all the way up to the Croton River, was all theirs and they had tenant farmers.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the enslaved were there.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: So they're they're spread out.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So the difference between how it looked from the south is Europe, we weren't big plantations.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not having 50, 100 enslaved people at a particular place.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: People were owning maybe one, maybe two enslaved people.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the way they lived was different.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: They lived in attics and basements in the city, or here where we're a little bit more spread out and farmed land.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: They probably lived in the attic or the basement.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes they were had a barn that they would allow their enslaved, but it was very lonely up here because you're by yourself.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's no one that looks like you to talk to.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, unless there is someone else there that might be of opposite sex for you to have a marriage.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you were isolated.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a very lonely condition here.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you still toiled.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: There was still uh black codes.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: So there were rules that governed how many black people can congregate at a time.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, trade with black people uh was restricted, your movement was restricted.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And this was all under British law.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: This was all under British law.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the Dutch had rules too, but then the British was a little bit more harsh.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so the city, there, you know, everyone is there's a lot of them down in the city, a lot of people in general.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but New York was the highest holding enslaved state in the north, second to uh South Carolina.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: So to not know here that we even had enslavement to find out that we were very big.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we benefited financially from it uh is astounding.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And like we we always say, we are both the product of New York State public schools, and yeah, here we are not knowing a lot of this.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, are there still, can you still see?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you I know you mentioned Wall Street and you mentioned Broadway, and and I also never knew that those were roads cleared by enslaved people, which is I will never look at those roadways the same way.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but here in Westchester, are there still uh marks that they were here?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything, any evidence that they were here that we can look to and sort of like say, wow, this is this is this is it?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: There are amazing people in many communities doing the work to um uncover and share the history, um, that hard history.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: I can in Irvington alone commemorate, has done a wonderful job.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: They have a Vinnie Bagwell uh sculpture.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: They have found names through wills and um other records, tax records.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: I believe Mamarinek also just unveiled a statue, um, and they have the names Ostning, where I uncover names as well.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of evidence and uh that people are doing the work to um share.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: To shed light on it.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: To shed light on it.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: And also a lot of people are finding the cemeteries.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Cemeteries are a great point of history for any cemetery to get any information.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: But there are a lot of uh black cemeteries.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we have one on the at least one, I'm thinking now, on the the Westchester County um African American Heritage Trail.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I know there's one in Newcastle that they're working to put on as well, the Hetty Cemetery, but they were free people of color.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's a different podcast.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the first one that's on the African American trail, um what is that?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and wrong.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the cemetery right.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you have these cemeteries.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know how far back their first internment was, but these this is evidence of enslaved people's presence in Westchester.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times you'll find it through cemetery records, wills, tax records, and rules.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, so so on the second um Monday in July uh in 1827, uh, what what happened?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so if I could just go back a little bit.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, please do.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because I want to talk about how the abolition of slavery happened in New York.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was very gradual.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: It actually started in 1799, and it's so nuanced that I had to bring the sheet with me to make sure I don't forget.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: So 1799 um was the first act that said any person born to an enslaved mother after July 4th, 1799, is free.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: However, they are bound to their mother's enslaver for women for 25 years and for men 28 years, and they took the term enslaved away and replaced it with indentured.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: The mother, anyone born prior to July 4th, 1799, will remain enslaved.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Then they had uh amendment to that rule, and then in 18 uh 1817, then it was the end is going to be July 4th, 1827 for everyone.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So what was the what prompted New York to start taking these this action?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the I people's ideas were changing about how they felt about slavery.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a lot of um slave-holding abolitionists in in Westchester County.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: In New York, the sentiment in New York was changing about how they felt about uh enslavement, um, how we were getting our money, how we were building our wealth, uh, all of those things.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we didn't jump right out of it.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: We weren't very comfortable.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, this is all about money and wealth.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: So is about money and wealth.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why it was so gradual.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't just a, you know, we don't like this anymore, we're done.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, it was a lot of fighting and a lot of rules.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some of the rules were uh, and I I study a lot southern enslavement.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: So to find out that in the north, that they were required, the enslaver was uh required to educate the enslaved for at least four terms of school, which was interesting to me.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they would be fined.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then even after the 1799, um, the first gradual emancipation, if a mother had a child that was free, the enslaver could abandon that child and become uh ward of the state, basically, for in the um the overseer of the poor.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the enslaver would get money.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then they may take them back when they were old enough to work.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So when we say old enough to work, we're thinking like at least teenager, no, maybe five.
• 19:50
  unknown: Wow.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they would can bring them back and they would still have the free labor and still get a like half the stipend they were getting before.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a very nuanced uh part of our history.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's too much for our our small podcast today, but I behoove people to go and look at it because it is a part of our history, it is a painful part of our history, but it is what made every road, every old beautiful building that we look at.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Who were the people that made it possible?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just think about, you know, when I um get off the highway and I see the Newcastle sign and I see that date, and to think that at that time, and I believe the Newcastle date is like 16 something.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, at that time there were enslaved people in walking around my neighborhood, you know, and it's just it's really it's disturbing.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's sad and it's disturbing.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I can't believe I'm we're just learning this, or I'm just learning this, you know, it's just unbelievable.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, so walk me through again.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's gradually starts to happen.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: 1799.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: In 1799, and then we get to 1827.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: What happens on that day?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So on July 4th, 1827, it was over a little bit.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, still was a struggle.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So say a mother had her baby on July 3rd, that child would still have to live out its indenture.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it still had if it was a boy, the 28 is, or 25 if it was a girl.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: And what would happen when they turned 28 and 25?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that seems they were to be manumitted, they were to be free.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: But what would they do at that moment?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Manumission records exist.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and if anyone ever wants to see it, the Westchester County Archives does have manumission records and maybe even your municipality.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: From the county.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: From the county.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because they had to all of these were transactional.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you're paying taxes on people, your manumission records had to be uh filed, and they're walking around.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: You've you heard people many times say freedom papers when they're usually talking about the South.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we have freedom papers.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Here as well.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And a manumission record is a freedom paper.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Unbelievable.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: So so they get the papers and then they're free to just to go find work.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: So they're free.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: But we still live in a you're leaving a condition of enslavement to someone.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then you want them the next day to act like you're equal.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that just did not happen.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it was very hard.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was hard for them to find uh someplace to live, um, to pay for it.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: So some people were able to leave, go somewhere else, uh, maybe a version of sharecropping or or working on the land they were formerly enslaved on.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and that's how that's how it worked.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not an easy answer to that question.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: They did the best that they could.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: What is, I mean, I know you you're obviously you do genealogy work and you're a student of history.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: When you read this, when you found this out, um, you know, what was your reaction to it?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I felt duped because I thought it was, you know, somebody else's somebody else's issue.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: You you grow up, went through all the schools in New York, and you're like, we didn't do that to people.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we helped.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: We, you know, we were the abolitionists.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And to find out that there was a whole part of our history, the beginning part, the colonial, the founding part, that no one told us that we also did participate in a in a grand way because we benefited economically that we were part of this institution.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's sad because there are descendants of those enslaved people that their history was buried and ignored.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and no one wants to be ignored or forgotten.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how I felt.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: I felt a little duped.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: I felt yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And are there specific, you know, churches or schools or homes in the county that you know were built by enslaved people at that time?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a lot of them, almost of them.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: You got a lot of they were living in the land, they're doing everything.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's hard to say one in particular when they all were touched by enslaved hands.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um so why is it important that New York officially recognizes abolition day here?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because we have to be, if we're going to do better as a society, we have to grapple with all the pieces of us, right?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: We can't just um we can't sanitize our history anymore.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: We have to be comfortable with uh talking about all of it, even the bad parts.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Even the bad parts of it.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said last time, we have all the family members that we love.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And some of them and some make us mad and some make us uncomfortable, do things we don't like, but we still there are families.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a part of who we are.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we would not have a city, a New York City, that looks the way New York City does.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: We would not have a Westchester County the way we have it.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the wealth that was built, the things, even a lot of the banks, um, insurance companies that are huge in our society got their wealth insuring black bodies and benefiting from the institution of slavery.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it is important that we say their names, we commemorate the day, talk about the freedom seekers, talk about the abolitionists, and we just we learn all of it.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we'd be better people for it.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: We are, we are absolutely.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the analogy that you use that we are just a complicated, dysfunctional family, but we're still family.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I know the county executive always says American history is complicated.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it is.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sure is.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very complicated.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you have some really exciting events planned for abolition day in Ausning.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: So July 16th in Ausning, you have some exciting events planned.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us about them?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I am so excited to have been contacted by New York City to uh have a commemoration program in conjunction with them.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the first time in Westchester County it's being done on Thursday, the 16th, at Bethany Arts Community at 40 Somers Town Road.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: We will have our inaugural commemoration of um New York State Abolition Commemoration Day.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: It will start off with the traditional, you know, speaking and welcoming, but grounding us in the historical context.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then because I just can't do another PowerPoint, I've hired actors and there'll be reenactments and music and dancing.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I love for history for people to feel it.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I want people to feel this history.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it'll be uh a produced performer, performance part of this.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I think people will really enjoy it.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very excited for what we're going to display to commemorate this for the first time in Westchester County.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's exciting, and I love that you're using actors to really bring it all to life because it needs to be brought to life, these stories, and there's so many of them.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And like to your point, that's how we remember is telling the stories, knowing their names, knowing what happened.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I'm ever gonna look at an old building in Westchester the same.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: You can't.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Unbelievable.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what is, you know, people are listening, they want to learn more.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Where should they go?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: What should they do?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you want to learn more.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can call your municipal historical society, the Westchester County Historical Society.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're just uh organizations doing the work.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: You might have one in your community, like Irvington has commemory, and they are like hitting the pavement in Memarinek, and there's so many people, Greenberg, that are doing the work to uncover it because it's not easy.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does take a lot of work, a lot of researching, a lot of reading and interpretation on to be able to extract this information to share with people.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, New York State does have um a lot of resources online, the New York State Library, the New York State Archives.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: So there are a lot of places they have digitized a lot.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: So a quick Google search should go a long way.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Love Google.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, amazing.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Anything else that we should know going into the state's abolition day, going into the summer, and we still have 250 kind of hanging over our heads over here.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh anything we should know.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really interesting and really important to understand um that July 4th, 1827 is not the day that is celebrated when people celebrate the abolition of uh slavery in New York.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was chosen, the first celebration happened in 1828.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: And Reverend Nathaniel Paul in Almany was uh giving a speech, and there was a decision made that we would separate from the fourth, so there'll be no uh retaliation or anything else.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is celebrated on July 5th.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the actual celebration in the black community and those that I don't want to say just black because the abolitionists that fought really hard, a lot of the Quakers and other people that were in it as well to help.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um you have the Jay family that were slaveholding abolitionists that they fought hard at the in the end.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so July 5th was the day to celebrate.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: July 4th is the anniversary, but the celebrations happen the day after.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Day after.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for everything that you always teach us and share with us.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: You're a wealth of knowledge, and I could talk to you all day, and now you're nominated for Emmys.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: So exciting.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll have you back very soon.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining us.