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SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 35 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:07
Speaker 2: Samata Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing, day thirty three. How
0:12
Speaker 2: is this possible in this day and age with tens
0:16
Speaker 2: of thousands of tips video? Why is she still missing?
0:22
Speaker 2: Where is Nancy Guthrie? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
0:27
Speaker 2: I want to thank you for being with us.
0:29
Speaker 3: Our mom was taken in the dark of night from
0:34
Speaker 3: her bed, and every long night has been agony since then.
0:40
Speaker 2: Who Ever knows about Nancy Guthrie's whereabout, that sees that
0:46
Speaker 2: and does not act, must have a heart of stone.
0:52
Speaker 3: Please be the light in the dark.
0:56
Speaker 1: Joining us now is a special guest, Pat Byrne.
1:00
Speaker 4: I want to introduce you to Pat. He is a.
1:02
Speaker 2: Sleep expert and the founder of the Burn Fatigue Consulting Group.
1:08
Speaker 2: He is the author of Inconvenient Sleep, Why Teams Win
1:14
Speaker 2: and Lose on Amazon, and he has analyzed the Nancy
1:18
Speaker 2: Guthrie case from his point of view. Mister Burne, thank
1:23
Speaker 2: you for being with us. I'd like to just start
1:26
Speaker 2: off with a general question as to your analysis of
1:30
Speaker 2: the Nancy Guthrie kidnap.
1:33
Speaker 5: It was very interesting. So here's an elderly woman who's
1:37
Speaker 5: apparently asleep at two o'clock in the morning and it
1:42
Speaker 5: was taken by some intruder. And so what I started
1:47
Speaker 5: to think about was what's going on in her brain,
1:51
Speaker 5: what sleep stage was she at, and how did that
1:55
Speaker 5: affect her emotions and her thought process once when she
2:00
Speaker 5: woke up. So our human brains do not go from
2:03
Speaker 5: fully asleep to fully awake, right. There's this process, and
2:08
Speaker 5: it's called sleep inertia. There's this process of waking up
2:11
Speaker 5: and that depends partly on how you're woken up and
2:16
Speaker 5: what sleep stage you're at. So at two am, she
2:19
Speaker 5: was probably either in a very deep sleep or in
2:23
Speaker 5: a in what's called RAM sleep, which is rapid ie
2:26
Speaker 5: movement sleep, which is where we dream. And the interesting
2:29
Speaker 5: thing about that is if she was in a deep sleep,
2:34
Speaker 5: then she would be she would be incredibly confused. She
2:38
Speaker 5: wouldn't know where she was, she wouldn't know what time
2:42
Speaker 5: it was, she wouldn't know who she was with. This
2:46
Speaker 5: confusion would go on for at least two to three
2:48
Speaker 5: minutes or are longer. And interesting thing is she also
2:53
Speaker 5: has a pacemaker, I understand, so she has a heart condition,
2:59
Speaker 5: and elderly people with heart conditions who were woken up
3:03
Speaker 5: suddenly from a deep sleep, are very high risk of
3:05
Speaker 5: a heart attack, so always so that concerned me immediately.
3:11
Speaker 5: And the other aspect too, is if she was in
3:13
Speaker 5: ren sleep, she was dreaming. When we dream, our bodies freeze,
3:18
Speaker 5: and so you can't you can't move. So if he
3:21
Speaker 5: walked into the room and she was dreaming, he could
3:24
Speaker 5: just pick a rock. She couldn't even move, and then
3:27
Speaker 5: she would get into some kind of a she'd get
3:29
Speaker 5: into a panic mode and get, you know, very confused.
3:32
Speaker 5: She wouldn't be able to even say anything or be
3:35
Speaker 5: able to fight back.
3:37
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, Pat, so much of what you're saying is
3:44
Speaker 2: is so upsetting. But I know you're the expert and
3:49
Speaker 2: these are the facts. But I've got to figure out
3:53
Speaker 2: what if anything is probative, What can I deduce? What
3:56
Speaker 2: can I learn? What can I prove from what you're saying? Well,
3:59
Speaker 2: from what thing you stated for multiple reasons that she
4:03
Speaker 2: would be at a high risk of a heart attack,
4:05
Speaker 2: Could you revisit that and explain your thinking.
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Speaker 5: Well, that's the research just shows that elderly people who
4:14
Speaker 5: even without without heart conditions, are at a high risk
4:17
Speaker 5: of heart attacks and being violently and woken up from
4:23
Speaker 5: a deep sleep. So that's what the research, scientific research shows, right,
4:27
Speaker 5: And so you add on the fact that she has
4:30
Speaker 5: a pacemaker, which means she has a heart condition, makes
4:32
Speaker 5: it worse.
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Speaker 2: You know, what's an interesting point about what you just
4:36
Speaker 2: made with me. It was instinctive ever since the twins
4:40
Speaker 2: were born that I even to this day and they're eighteen,
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Speaker 2: I wake them up gently.
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Speaker 4: I don't fly open the.
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Speaker 1: Door and yell wake up.
4:51
Speaker 4: Anything like that.
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Speaker 2: And especially with my mom who lives with us, she's
4:55
Speaker 2: ninety four, it's again instinctive not to shout someone awake
5:01
Speaker 2: or scare them awake.
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Speaker 4: But you're saying that.
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Speaker 2: When someone is abruptly woken in their sleep, especially an
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Speaker 2: elderly person, it increases the risk of a heart attack.
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Speaker 2: And we know she's a heart patient, she's got a
5:16
Speaker 2: pacemaker among other things.
5:18
Speaker 5: Absolutely, yeah, and particularly IF's if she was woken up
5:24
Speaker 5: in a very light sleep, which is just starting to
5:26
Speaker 5: fall asleep, that might be different. But at two am,
5:29
Speaker 5: she's going to be in a deep sleep.
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Speaker 4: You mentioned a term called sleep inertia. What's that?
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Speaker 5: So that's that foggy brain feeling you get when you
5:38
Speaker 5: wake up in the mornings, right, and it's that period
5:41
Speaker 5: of time between being fully asleep and fully awake, and
5:44
Speaker 5: so your reaction time is slower, your thinking isn't very clear,
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Speaker 5: and so it takes it often takes anywhere from fifteen
5:53
Speaker 5: minutes to half an hour or two to get your
5:56
Speaker 5: foggy brain back cleared up so you can actually function
5:59
Speaker 5: during the day. And even people like firefighters who may
6:02
Speaker 5: be sleeping in the fire hall and then the alarm
6:04
Speaker 5: goes off and they have to jump up and get
6:06
Speaker 5: in the vehicle and drive. You know, they need to
6:09
Speaker 5: wait a bet to get their brains cleared before they
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Speaker 5: get in the vehicle to drive. So that's common across
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Speaker 5: for everybody. Sleep inerties is just normal.
6:19
Speaker 4: You know what's another question.
6:21
Speaker 2: Pat Burn is joining us Everyone Sleep expert, founder of
6:24
Speaker 2: the Burn b Y are in a fatigue consulting group,
6:29
Speaker 2: author of Inconvenient Sleep, Why Teams Win and Lose on Amazon. Pat,
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Speaker 2: for instance, every morning when I wake up at five AM.
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Speaker 4: I jump up and take off.
6:42
Speaker 2: You know, like a bat out of hell, thinking, Oh,
6:45
Speaker 2: I've got to fema mom, I've got to get the
6:47
Speaker 2: children's breakfast ready, I've got to do this. This is
6:49
Speaker 2: a whole whole set of chores before my day even
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Speaker 2: really starts. And sometimes I'm halfway to the kitchen before
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Speaker 2: I really am awake, and I'm just stand there thinking, Okay,
7:00
Speaker 2: what do I need to do right now?
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Speaker 4: What am I doing? First?
7:03
Speaker 1: Is that? What is that?
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Speaker 4: Is that the sleep bog you're talking about?
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Speaker 5: That's sleep inertia? Yeah?
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Speaker 4: Absolutely, huh well, I'm certainly not in.
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Speaker 2: Ert She didn't like a bullet? How would this affect
7:15
Speaker 2: what happened to Nancy?
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Speaker 5: Okay, let's back up a little bit, because when you
7:19
Speaker 5: get up at five am, the chances are you're probably
7:22
Speaker 5: waking up from a light sleep, not a deep sleep.
7:25
Speaker 5: And so the the sleep inertia has is uh less,
7:30
Speaker 5: let's pronounce when you wake up from a light sleep
7:32
Speaker 5: than you do from a deep sleep. And so in
7:35
Speaker 5: terms of the Nancy Guthrie situation, is that she was
7:42
Speaker 5: most likely in a deep sleep at two am in
7:44
Speaker 5: the morning. So I'm pretty confident that that you know,
7:48
Speaker 5: she was at a fairly high risk for heart attack.
7:52
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, The reason.
7:55
Speaker 2: Thinking through everything you're saying so carefully is because.
8:00
Speaker 4: I wonder what happened at her doorstep? Pat?
8:04
Speaker 2: Was she stumbling because of sleep inertia and fall. And
8:11
Speaker 2: then we see those clearly to me are low velocity
8:16
Speaker 2: blood drops.
8:19
Speaker 4: It's not high velocity from a gunshot wound. It's not.
8:24
Speaker 2: Throwback from a blow and then you bring back the
8:27
Speaker 2: weapon and you get cast off. It's none of those.
8:32
Speaker 2: It looks as if she's standing there out of it,
8:36
Speaker 2: and blood drops and I'm saying from her nose because
8:39
Speaker 2: it looks so much like the blood drops in the
8:41
Speaker 2: Travis Alexander murder. He was murdered by Jodiarius, and he
8:46
Speaker 2: saw himself dying. He went and stood at his mirror
8:49
Speaker 2: in his bathroom and the blood drops from his nose
8:52
Speaker 2: were right there on the counter, and they had a
8:55
Speaker 2: very similar blood pattern. So I'm wondering if Nancy was
9:00
Speaker 2: completely out of it because of sleep inertia. Was she
9:03
Speaker 2: in the throes of a heart attack and she stood there.
9:09
Speaker 4: Dropping blood? How does that query job with your theory?
9:17
Speaker 6: Right?
9:17
Speaker 5: So that probably tells me that obviously he's had some
9:21
Speaker 5: physical injury, right, although it could very well be stress
9:25
Speaker 5: as well. Panic and stress people getting those weeds. So yeah,
9:30
Speaker 5: that all fits with the same thing, is you know
9:33
Speaker 5: she would have had sleep inertia for it, you know,
9:36
Speaker 5: the full on sleep inertia for probably two or three
9:38
Speaker 5: minutes where it's like she would not know any anything
9:41
Speaker 5: that's going on, and then it would her brain would
9:45
Speaker 5: slowly start to clear up and it would be you know,
9:47
Speaker 5: twenty thirty minutes before her brain was completely completely fond free, right,
9:53
Speaker 5: And so I don't know what the timeline was from
9:55
Speaker 5: when she woke up and tells she hit the doors
9:58
Speaker 5: when she was at the door.
10:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
10:12
Speaker 2: Pat Burne joining us, consultant sleep expert and author.
10:19
Speaker 4: Have you considered the purp?
10:22
Speaker 1: Yeah?
10:22
Speaker 5: I thought when I saw the video, because that's the
10:24
Speaker 5: only one we really get to see as a perpetrator.
10:27
Speaker 5: I know, what's he doing out at you know, two
10:29
Speaker 5: o'clock in the morning, wandering around the neighborhood. You know,
10:33
Speaker 5: what's his we think about He's circading rhythm? What about
10:36
Speaker 5: his own sleep patterns? You know? Is this is this
10:39
Speaker 5: this guy in night? All like, what do we know
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Speaker 5: about this guy? Probably not much, but clearly he feels
10:45
Speaker 5: comfortable walking around the middle of the night.
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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, exactly.
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Speaker 2: And and Pat question, why would he have picked between
10:55
Speaker 2: two and three a m.
10:56
Speaker 4: To do this?
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Speaker 2: What is magical about two to three am.
11:00
Speaker 5: One of the reasons people commit crimes I think at
11:03
Speaker 5: two or three o'clock in the morning is because there
11:05
Speaker 5: aren't any a lot of other people around everybody else's
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Speaker 5: where most other people are sleeping. But also, you know,
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Speaker 5: if he has any knowledge at all, he would know
11:17
Speaker 5: that she was probably sleeping and that he could easily
11:21
Speaker 5: walk around the house and easily go and grab her
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Speaker 5: right if you know, because she's probably asleep.
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Speaker 4: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Well, another aspect of this, Pat Burne, is that if
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Speaker 2: he has a family, a girlfriend, a roommate, did they
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Speaker 2: not notice he was gone way into the night in
11:42
Speaker 2: the early morning hours, Which.
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Speaker 4: Should be a tip off to anyone that has.
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Speaker 2: Heard about the one point two plus million dollar reward.
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Speaker 2: Joining us tonight special guest Pat Burne of the Burn
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Speaker 2: Fatigue Consulting Group and author of Inconvenience Sleep White Teams
12:04
Speaker 2: Win and Lose on Amazon. Pat, thank you and please
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Speaker 2: join us again with your insight.
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Speaker 5: It's my pleasure.
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Speaker 7: Hi there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just
12:21
Speaker 7: share a few thoughts as we enter into another week
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Speaker 7: of this nightmare. I just want to say, first of all,
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Speaker 7: thank you so much for all of the prayers and
12:40
Speaker 7: the love that we have felt, my sister and brother
12:44
Speaker 7: and I, and that our mom has felt, because we
12:51
Speaker 7: believe that somehow, in some ways, she is feeling these
12:55
Speaker 7: prayers and that God is lifting her even in this
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Speaker 7: moment and in the darkest place, we believe our mom
13:03
Speaker 7: is still out there.
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Speaker 4: We need your help.
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Speaker 7: Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to
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Speaker 7: bring her home, trying to find her.
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Speaker 4: She was taken and we don't.
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Speaker 7: Know where, and we need your help. So I'm coming
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Speaker 7: on just to ask you, not just for your prayers,
13:30
Speaker 7: but no matter where you are, even if you're far
13:33
Speaker 7: from Tucson, if you see anything, you hear anything, if
13:38
Speaker 7: there's anything at all that seems strange to you that
13:43
Speaker 7: you report to law enforcement. We are an hour of
13:49
Speaker 7: desperation and we.
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Speaker 4: Need your help.
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Speaker 6: It boggles my mind that they would return the home
13:57
Speaker 6: back to the family right now. Nobody in the family
14:00
Speaker 6: lives there. There's no reason to turn the house back over.
14:04
Speaker 6: Yet they've still kind of find who did.
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Speaker 2: This, Doctor Bethany Marshall, Let's just proceed with the belief
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Speaker 2: that Nancy Guthrie is still alive. Okay, Who in the
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Speaker 2: right mind could keep an eighty four year old woman
14:21
Speaker 2: imprisoned in a bedroom or an apartment or who knows,
14:26
Speaker 2: a farmhouse, a seller, a basement. Those are the things
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Speaker 2: that Savannah and her siblings is their nightmares.
14:33
Speaker 1: Where is mom?
14:34
Speaker 4: But what type of mentality, what person, what man can do.
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Speaker 8: That somebody who's obsessed with her because they see her
14:44
Speaker 8: as a mark, They see her as somebody that they
14:47
Speaker 8: are going to profit off of, and that delights them.
14:51
Speaker 8: That makes her very exciting and captivating to them. And
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Speaker 8: Nancy a couple of things that you just brought out
14:57
Speaker 8: on this show. The fact that the blood is the nose,
15:00
Speaker 8: nose doplets potentially, and that it stops on the doorstep
15:05
Speaker 8: makes me so sad because that means somebody stemmed the
15:08
Speaker 8: bleeding by putting their hand over her face. That's the
15:11
Speaker 8: kind of person who's holding Miss Guthrie. And the other thing,
15:16
Speaker 8: when I see some guy fiddling with a camera at
15:20
Speaker 8: five am in a neighborhood, probably where there are many seniors,
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Speaker 8: it makes me wonder is there some slim possibility that
15:28
Speaker 8: this was not targeted, that somebody was going from doorstep
15:32
Speaker 8: to doorstep trying to find somebody that they could abduct, kidnap,
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Speaker 8: something like this. It just opens up more questions to
15:41
Speaker 8: me rather than resolving them.
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Speaker 2: You know, you said something about that, and it made
15:45
Speaker 2: me think just in that moment, and I'm sure you
15:48
Speaker 2: can verbalize this better than me. But whoever's got Missus Guthrie,
15:54
Speaker 2: She's not even real to them. They're thinking about potentially
15:58
Speaker 2: Savannah and getting her money, and Missus Guthrie is just
16:02
Speaker 2: like a pawn, a thing to them for them to
16:05
Speaker 2: get that money.
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Speaker 8: However, I'll tell you something, Nancy, she may be a pawn,
16:11
Speaker 8: she may be a thing, but they've been thinking about
16:13
Speaker 8: her for a long long time. Reminds me of a
16:16
Speaker 8: patient who came in and could not stop talking about
16:19
Speaker 8: his grandma, obsessed about his grandma, And I finally realized
16:22
Speaker 8: he was obsessed with her because he was trying to
16:25
Speaker 8: drain her bank account. So there was a lot of
16:27
Speaker 8: talking about it before I finally realized that he was
16:30
Speaker 8: actually using the therapy to commit a crime. Obviously I
16:34
Speaker 8: stopped seeing him. So there's somebody in some household out
16:37
Speaker 8: there who has a father, a brother, a son, somebody
16:41
Speaker 8: in their lives who has been talking about Nancy Guthrie
16:46
Speaker 8: for a long, long time. That could be a very
16:47
Speaker 8: important behavioral clue in terms of finding the perpetrator.
16:53
Speaker 2: What else should people be looking for? Because I believe
16:55
Speaker 2: a case like this could be cracked by a girlfriend,
16:58
Speaker 2: a wife, a sister, a mother, a friend, a neighbor
17:02
Speaker 2: that realizes something is off.
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Speaker 8: Oh, well, promises of wealth, I'm going to take you
17:09
Speaker 8: on a big trip. I'm going to buy you a
17:12
Speaker 8: new car. Our ship is coming in preoccupation with the news,
17:18
Speaker 8: wanting to talk about all the little tidbits that have
17:21
Speaker 8: come out. I don't think that what we should or
17:24
Speaker 8: family members should be watching for as somebody who's actually
17:27
Speaker 8: avoiding talking about this, but somebody who is quite captivated
17:31
Speaker 8: by it, because you know, when you have a mark,
17:34
Speaker 8: when you're a perpetrator and you're going to benefit financially
17:37
Speaker 8: from something, you want to talk about it all the time.
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Speaker 8: So I think it's going to be in the conversations
17:44
Speaker 8: people are hearing in their households. Think about if you're
17:47
Speaker 8: sitting around the dinner table with your family, all of
17:50
Speaker 8: a sudden, there's one family member that says, Oh, let's
17:53
Speaker 8: talk about the Guthrie case. What do you think about
17:56
Speaker 8: older people living alone? Oh, do you think that they're
17:59
Speaker 8: do you think the ransom going to be paid?
18:02
Speaker 4: Do you think.
18:02
Speaker 8: Nancy's still alive? At excited conference conversation, not sad, excited conversation.
18:09
Speaker 8: That's what family members, girlfriends, wives, children, whatever, that's what
18:13
Speaker 8: they need to be watching out for.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting, doctor Bethany, because every time I
18:19
Speaker 2: leave the studio, I'm asked, do you think Nancy Guthrie
18:22
Speaker 2: is still alive? And similar questions, and every time the
18:27
Speaker 2: person is seems genuinely upset. They're not excited, like what's
18:32
Speaker 2: the latest. It's not like that at all. They're agast
18:36
Speaker 2: and what has happened. They all have a mother or
18:39
Speaker 2: a grandmother, many of them that live with them or
18:41
Speaker 2: that are living alone, and this strikes fear in their heart.
18:46
Speaker 2: It's really interesting the way you delineated between being excited
18:50
Speaker 2: and almost giddy about it as opposed to being upset
18:54
Speaker 2: and concerned about it.
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Speaker 8: Bethany, that is absolutely right, and that goes to the
18:59
Speaker 8: third round note. Right, is that in this third ransom note,
19:04
Speaker 8: this person who writes it or sends it does not
19:07
Speaker 8: seem to show any concern about Nancy Guthrie. It's kind
19:11
Speaker 8: of all about himself. So also another thing to listen for.
19:16
Speaker 8: In conversations around the table or on a date or whatever.
19:20
Speaker 8: Is a person talking about how someone could benefit from
19:24
Speaker 8: adducting an older person, or they're talking about Nancy herself
19:28
Speaker 8: and how sad this is and is she still alive
19:31
Speaker 8: and how is the family doing. If there is empathy
19:35
Speaker 8: in the conversation, that's not a perpetrator. If there's lack
19:38
Speaker 8: of empathy, then that is a possible suspect.
19:42
Speaker 9: Prime scene investigation is both an art and a science.
19:46
Speaker 9: I have been critical of the sheriff in this case
19:49
Speaker 9: from day one. This sheriff is not a trained public
19:52
Speaker 9: information officer. He's not familiar with media relations, and he
19:57
Speaker 9: just shouldn't be spouting out and blaming the media for
20:00
Speaker 9: overreacting and so forth.
20:02
Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie still missing the reward now up to over
20:07
Speaker 2: one point two million dollars straight out to Crime Stories
20:12
Speaker 2: investigative reporter Dave Matt Dave, what's the latest, Nancy?
20:16
Speaker 6: As we hit the one month mark in the investigation,
20:20
Speaker 6: for the very first time since any of this began,
20:23
Speaker 6: we saw Savannah Guthrie in public. Savannah Guthrie, along with
20:28
Speaker 6: her sister Annie and Annie's husband, Tomaso. The three of
20:32
Speaker 6: them appeared at Nancy Guthrie's home and in the front
20:38
Speaker 6: part of her home, on the edge of the property,
20:41
Speaker 6: there is a makeshift memorial. It's got yellow flowers and
20:46
Speaker 6: yellow ribbons, all types of things like that. And Annie
20:50
Speaker 6: and Savannah walked arm in arm with Tomaso and they
20:54
Speaker 6: actually set a note down at this makeshift memorial. Then
20:59
Speaker 6: later in the day, Savannah issued another Instagram and again
21:04
Speaker 6: talking really about her mother and directly to her mother.
21:08
Speaker 6: And I'm wondering what that means, if it means anything.
21:12
Speaker 6: It seems like her notes previously have had a certain
21:15
Speaker 6: meaning to them, addressing certain aspects of the kidnapping. I
21:19
Speaker 6: don't know if these have that same attachment. But Savannah
21:25
Speaker 6: Guthrie seen for the first time since this began. With
21:28
Speaker 6: regard to the notes, We've got the family note at
21:32
Speaker 6: the makeshift memorial and Savannah Guthrie and her instagram note.
21:36
Speaker 6: Based on what you're seeing in these, does it seem
21:39
Speaker 6: like the FBI is involved in writing these notes? And
21:43
Speaker 6: is there a direction or are these just straight up
21:45
Speaker 6: family related?
21:46
Speaker 10: You know, Dan, I think they're straight up family related
21:49
Speaker 10: at this point. You could tell by some of the
21:52
Speaker 10: verbiage within them, you know, the note that was left
21:57
Speaker 10: out at the curb by the family. My understanding is,
22:01
Speaker 10: you know, very personal to to mom. It's a one
22:05
Speaker 10: on one conversation with her, and they're you know, they're
22:08
Speaker 10: expressing their love to her. Whereas when you see you
22:12
Speaker 10: know Savannah's Instagram, she starts off right away with thanking
22:17
Speaker 10: all of the neighbors. That tells us, you know, they're
22:21
Speaker 10: still hoping that information will be flowing from the public.
22:26
Speaker 10: And what's interesting is she has compressed that, you know,
22:30
Speaker 10: to her neighborhood. You know, please if you see or
22:34
Speaker 10: you have seen something, please let us know. And I
22:37
Speaker 10: thought that was a really interesting way to start that Instagram.
22:41
Speaker 6: Savannah Guthrie took to Instagram and posted a clip from
22:45
Speaker 6: The Today Show in a segment about her mom and writes,
22:49
Speaker 6: please be the one that brings her home. And she
22:52
Speaker 6: also added, you know, tips can be anonymous and the
22:56
Speaker 6: reward can be paid in cash. I don't think that's
22:59
Speaker 6: been said before, but we all know that tips can
23:02
Speaker 6: be anonymous if you want, but the reward can be
23:06
Speaker 6: paid in cash. She coupled that with releasing a shortened
23:10
Speaker 6: version of what should the Family release the other day?
23:14
Speaker 6: But Savannah Guthrie reminding everyone that tips are anonymous and
23:18
Speaker 6: the reward can be paid in cash.
23:20
Speaker 2: To doctor Bethany Marshall, joining US psychoanalyst out of the
23:24
Speaker 2: LA jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. You can see her
23:29
Speaker 2: on Peacock and find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com.
23:32
Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany, I know that this is a step forward,
23:37
Speaker 2: but sometimes it must feel for the family that it's
23:40
Speaker 2: one step forward, two steps back, you know.
23:43
Speaker 8: Nancy, of course it feels that way to them because
23:46
Speaker 8: what's horrible for the family is the unknown. They have
23:50
Speaker 8: no idea if their mother is dead or alive. They
23:53
Speaker 8: don't know how she's been treated. And Nancy, when we
23:56
Speaker 8: face the unknown, we projected to it our worst possible fears.
24:03
Speaker 8: That's how we evolved as a BCS biologically is we
24:07
Speaker 8: evolved to be suspicious of the unknown so we could
24:10
Speaker 8: keep ourselves safe. But that's what causes anxiety, right when
24:13
Speaker 8: we don't know how a situation is going to turn out.
24:15
Speaker 8: So in this case with the mother, they're going to
24:17
Speaker 8: be wondering like is she cold, is she being fed?
24:22
Speaker 8: What about her medications. How has she been treated by
24:25
Speaker 8: the perpetrator? Are they kind to her? Are they cruel
24:28
Speaker 8: to her? Has she passed? If so, under what circumstances
24:31
Speaker 8: was there somebody there to hold her hand? I mean
24:34
Speaker 8: this is agonizing for the family. They need to know.
24:38
Speaker 8: They need all these details so that they can sleep,
24:44
Speaker 8: so that they can think, so that they can move
24:46
Speaker 8: on with their lives. They need their mother back, whether
24:49
Speaker 8: she's deceased or alive. Nancy, they need to know what's
24:52
Speaker 8: happened to her.
24:53
Speaker 7: On behalf of our family, we want to thank all
24:57
Speaker 7: of you for the prayers for our beloved mom Nancy.
25:03
Speaker 7: We feel them, and we continue to believe that she
25:07
Speaker 7: feels them too. Our mom is a kind, faithful, loyal,
25:16
Speaker 7: fiercely loving woman of goodness and light. She's funny, spunky,
25:24
Speaker 7: and clever. She has grandchildren that adore her and crowd
25:30
Speaker 7: around her and cover her with kisses. She loves fun
25:35
Speaker 7: and adventure. She is a devoted friend. She is full
25:40
Speaker 7: of kindness and knowledge.
25:43
Speaker 4: Talk to her and you'll.
25:44
Speaker 11: See the light is missing from our lives.
25:52
Speaker 4: Nancy is our mother.
25:55
Speaker 9: We are her children.
25:57
Speaker 5: She is our beacon.
26:00
Speaker 11: She holds fast to joy in all of life's circumstances,
26:07
Speaker 11: she chooses joy day after day.
26:12
Speaker 2: There you see the Guthrie siblings begging for the return
26:16
Speaker 2: of their mother, Nancy Guthrie. The investigation goes on now,
26:19
Speaker 2: extending into Mexico. We learn hopefully the Mexican I Familia
26:26
Speaker 2: database will be used for DNA as well as international databases. Guys,
26:34
Speaker 2: we also are learning about polygraphs that went down into
26:38
Speaker 2: the evening last night.
26:41
Speaker 4: Dave mac what about it?
26:44
Speaker 6: Well, as normally a case develops with everybody involved. Now
26:49
Speaker 6: you've got workers all around the house that are being
26:53
Speaker 6: investigated because they should. Anyone with access to the home
26:57
Speaker 6: has been brought in, and we're talking about people even
27:00
Speaker 6: including the pool workers that came by the other day
27:03
Speaker 6: to clean the pool. Nancy Guthrie doesn't normally have a
27:06
Speaker 6: pool cleaning service. The family called it out to make
27:09
Speaker 6: sure that it was being kept up. But you know what, Nancy,
27:12
Speaker 6: everybody with access to that home, everybody with access to
27:16
Speaker 6: Nancy Guthrie, probably people at church as well as everywhere else,
27:20
Speaker 6: is being polygraphed to find out everything law enforcement can
27:24
Speaker 6: at this point, and as you mentioned early on, somebody
27:28
Speaker 6: rejecting a polygraph is going to become a huge suspect.
27:32
Speaker 2: Dave mac did you actually say that the church congregates
27:36
Speaker 2: are being polygraphed or they should be polygraphed, should be polygraphed?
27:41
Speaker 6: I miss both, but everybody should.
27:43
Speaker 4: Be nan Actually I agree with you.
27:46
Speaker 2: I'm not impugning them or suggesting ron doing on their part,
27:51
Speaker 2: but everyone connected to Nancy Guthrie should volunteer for a
27:55
Speaker 2: polygraph done.
27:57
Speaker 1: What's the problem.
27:58
Speaker 2: So the the reason I'm saying that Kelly Hyman is
28:03
Speaker 2: here's the gold standard mark class.
28:05
Speaker 4: When his daughter Polly went missing.
28:08
Speaker 2: She was abducted in a sleepover party of her and
28:11
Speaker 2: her little friends at her mom's home. Well, they came
28:14
Speaker 2: bamming on his door and he went, fine, take my fingerprints,
28:18
Speaker 2: do whatever you want. Search my place, search my car,
28:21
Speaker 2: search my office. I'll do a Polly right now so
28:24
Speaker 2: you can get past me and find my daughter. So
28:27
Speaker 2: I don't see a problem with everybody connected to Nancy Guthrie.
28:31
Speaker 4: Getting a polygraph. Now.
28:33
Speaker 2: Of course, they are not allowed in a criminal trial
28:36
Speaker 2: unless stipulated.
28:37
Speaker 4: Ahead of time. We all know that, All the legal
28:40
Speaker 4: eagles know that.
28:42
Speaker 2: But I have used polygraphs as an investigative tool in
28:45
Speaker 2: the past.
28:46
Speaker 11: No stone should gonna go unturn Nancy in this case,
28:50
Speaker 11: and so the polygraphs should be done as well.
28:54
Speaker 5: And you're right.
28:54
Speaker 11: You bring up a really good point. If there's nothing
28:57
Speaker 11: to hide, if there's transparency, then it's really important for
29:00
Speaker 11: people to give polygraphs. It's really important for people to
29:04
Speaker 11: give up their DNA, which you know, the family has
29:08
Speaker 11: given their DNA and been ruled out as a suspect.
29:11
Speaker 11: But going back to the DNA, like, it's really important
29:14
Speaker 11: that this kind of stuff is key to the case.
29:16
Speaker 11: Why the DNA is so important because it can help
29:19
Speaker 11: substantiate who is there and DNA can be used in
29:23
Speaker 11: the court of law. Of course, now the DNA that
29:26
Speaker 11: was found two weeks later could potentially be challenged. But
29:29
Speaker 11: it's really important to look at what is available, what
29:34
Speaker 11: is available in regards to resources that are out there,
29:37
Speaker 11: whether it's using the FBI database or potentially also looking
29:42
Speaker 11: at genetic databases as well, like something like twenty three
29:47
Speaker 11: in ME in which people can opt out of their
29:52
Speaker 11: information and so that that can't be discovered. However with
29:56
Speaker 11: a court of law potentially can get a a warn't
30:00
Speaker 11: out there to look at DNA as well.
30:03
Speaker 3: Our mom was taken in the dark of night from
30:08
Speaker 3: her bed, and every long night has been agony since then.
30:14
Speaker 2: Whoever knows about Nancy Guthries we're about that sees that
30:20
Speaker 2: and does not act, must have a heart of stone.
30:26
Speaker 3: Please be the light in the dark.
30:29
Speaker 8: This is obviously planned out.
30:31
Speaker 7: This is not your typical crime.
30:32
Speaker 5: We haven't had any proof of life.
30:34
Speaker 9: We haven't had any follow up communications about any of
30:37
Speaker 9: the brands of This could spiral out of control.
30:39
Speaker 7: You can't rule anything out in this case.
30:41
Speaker 4: This is the hour of desperation.
30:43
Speaker 7: We believe our mom is still out there.
30:45
Speaker 4: We need your help.
30:47
Speaker 2: Straight out to you, Cheryl McCollum, joining US, Founder of
30:51
Speaker 2: the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, forensics expert and star
30:56
Speaker 2: of a hit podcast, Zone seven, author of a brand
31:01
Speaker 2: new book, Swans Don't Swim and a Sewer, Solving the
31:05
Speaker 2: cold case of the Flint River Killer's daughter. Cheryl McCollum,
31:09
Speaker 2: you have analyzed very carefully the ransoms and the reward.
31:15
Speaker 12: What do you think, Nancy is a short list of
31:19
Speaker 12: the people in your life that would not turn you
31:21
Speaker 12: in for a million dollars. This person knows it. People
31:25
Speaker 12: he went to high school with neighbors, co workers, people
31:29
Speaker 12: that sit next to him at church. They will turn
31:31
Speaker 12: you in for a million dollars. And that phone has
31:34
Speaker 12: been ringing. And what we saw yesterday with the group
31:38
Speaker 12: surveying the grounds of that crime scene tells me this
31:42
Speaker 12: thing is red hot, Doctor Bethany.
31:45
Speaker 2: One point two million dollars plus reward. How do we
31:52
Speaker 2: break the bands of loyalty and get a co conspirator,
31:58
Speaker 2: a family member, a neighbor, a girlfriend, a wife, an
32:01
Speaker 2: ex to come forward and forget they're misplaced feelings of loyalty, Nancy.
32:11
Speaker 8: There is terrible chatter online that the Guthrie family was
32:14
Speaker 8: cheap and therefore they waited four or five weeks to
32:18
Speaker 8: offer a large reward. This is not true. There is
32:22
Speaker 8: a very specific psychology to offering rewards. If they had
32:27
Speaker 8: offered that reward in the beginning, the perpetrator might have
32:30
Speaker 8: panicked and killed Nancy Guthrie. What the family did at
32:34
Speaker 8: first was the appeal to morality. Savannah Guthrie was saying
32:38
Speaker 8: things like we believe in the goodness of human nature. Well,
32:42
Speaker 8: that did not work, Nancy. So now with this one
32:45
Speaker 8: point two million dollar reward, that does break the bonds
32:49
Speaker 8: of loyalty, because that is big money. That's lifetime money.
32:54
Speaker 8: So a sister, a girlfriend, somebody he once dated and
33:00
Speaker 8: that person's no longer with him, a neighbor. They're going
33:02
Speaker 8: to start thinking seriously about the clues. Who disappeared in the.
33:06
Speaker 4: Middle of the night.
33:07
Speaker 8: Who drives a car like that? Do I have a
33:09
Speaker 8: friend who owns that kind of a jacket or a backpack.
33:13
Speaker 8: It's a little like when the powerball or the lottery
33:17
Speaker 8: keeps climbing and climbing. Somebody who might not have bought
33:21
Speaker 8: a lottery ticket, they're going to stop into their local
33:23
Speaker 8: seven to eleven and buy one, Nancy, because now they're
33:27
Speaker 8: not internally motivated. We go back to people around the perpetrator.
33:33
Speaker 8: The internal motivation didn't work, the appealing to morality, so
33:38
Speaker 8: now there's extrinsic motivation, which is profit and greed.
33:49
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Gray.
33:56
Speaker 2: Back out to Mary Coleman joining US News even anchor
34:01
Speaker 2: Channel thirteen. Kold everyone knows Kold and that region, but
34:07
Speaker 2: now across the nation everyone knows Kold because they came
34:12
Speaker 2: forward with ransom notes. So Mary Coleman, in this last
34:16
Speaker 2: plea from Savannah, our friend Savannah Guthrie. Already nearly two
34:22
Speaker 2: thousand tips have come in additional tips, right.
34:26
Speaker 13: That's correct. Yeah, they haven't stopped. And that was the
34:30
Speaker 13: goal with putting out the one million dollar reward is
34:33
Speaker 13: to have more people coming in and hopefully giving something
34:37
Speaker 13: of substance. Unfortunately a lot of those tips have not
34:41
Speaker 13: been substantial as we've talked about, but the hope is
34:44
Speaker 13: that even just something small can can turn this into
34:47
Speaker 13: bringing Nancy home.
34:49
Speaker 2: Joining us now Heather Barnhardt, digital forensics expert with Celebright.
34:54
Speaker 4: You heard all about that during the Alex Murdoch trial.
34:58
Speaker 2: The case wide open and they SANS Institute System Admin, Audit,
35:03
Speaker 2: Network and Security. She worked on the Brian Coburger case.
35:08
Speaker 2: She is a co author of Practical Mobile Forensics, now
35:13
Speaker 2: in its fourth edition. Wow, Heather, thank you for being
35:17
Speaker 2: with us.
35:17
Speaker 4: Heather.
35:18
Speaker 2: I want to talk to you about the so called
35:20
Speaker 2: ransom notes.
35:21
Speaker 4: Heather, Is there anything.
35:24
Speaker 2: About these ransom notes that would suggest that they were
35:28
Speaker 2: AI generated and what are your thoughts about tracking that.
35:32
Speaker 14: One thing I want investigators to think about in this
35:37
Speaker 14: case are those ransom letters. And I remember reading and
35:42
Speaker 14: hearing on TMZ that one of them seemed to be
35:44
Speaker 14: written by a professional. Why was that one different if
35:49
Speaker 14: AI was used to help write a ransom note, which
35:51
Speaker 14: is likely. So think about the Google searches that came
35:55
Speaker 14: out that so many IP addresses had searched for Nancy Guthrie.
35:59
Speaker 14: Who would know her name, who would know where she
36:01
Speaker 14: lived prior to the kidnapping. Can you find keywords in
36:05
Speaker 14: open AI that's available to the public that can be
36:09
Speaker 14: searched for anything that was written specifically in those ransom notes?
36:14
Speaker 14: And if the answer is yes, this could tie back
36:17
Speaker 14: to a location and to a person in their home
36:20
Speaker 14: who potentially was behind that keyboard typing those unique words.
36:24
Speaker 2: Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Whether that's pretty amazing.
36:29
Speaker 2: What about if a VPN was being used, If.
36:34
Speaker 14: The person wasn't using some type of VPN and private
36:39
Speaker 14: browsing and all the things that mask you from where
36:43
Speaker 14: you're existing when you're typing things, then yes, we can
36:46
Speaker 14: find them. But keep in mind Brian Coberger tried to
36:48
Speaker 14: do this and we still found him, So there is
36:52
Speaker 14: always going to be a misstep that digital evidence will
36:55
Speaker 14: lead back.
36:56
Speaker 4: To the person.
36:57
Speaker 14: But if they didn't do this, and you just open
36:59
Speaker 14: a browser and you start googling things, absolutely that can
37:02
Speaker 14: be used the exact same way that OpenAI can be used.
37:06
Speaker 14: And I don't want the public to think, oh, no,
37:08
Speaker 14: I use chat GPT, or I use Claude, or I
37:11
Speaker 14: use something else. If you log in, your data is
37:15
Speaker 14: more protected than if you just start typing. For the
37:18
Speaker 14: Palisades fire. That's how law enforcement found people of interest
37:23
Speaker 14: or suspect of interest was things that they were typing
37:25
Speaker 14: into AI that just existed out there in the world.
37:30
Speaker 2: Heather, I want to circle back to the video that
37:33
Speaker 2: has just surfaced about the video of the vehicles flying
37:37
Speaker 2: by at the same time Nancy Guthrie is kidnapped in
37:41
Speaker 2: her neighborhood.
37:42
Speaker 4: What do you make of that video.
37:44
Speaker 14: Forensic experts will be able to slow down those vehicles
37:47
Speaker 14: to the point of us being able to identify make
37:50
Speaker 14: and model. They should also be able to detect speeds.
37:54
Speaker 14: So if you think you're involved in a crime, you're
37:56
Speaker 14: probably driving pretty quickly. And this is exactly what happened
38:00
Speaker 14: with Brian Coburger. He tore out of that neighborhood in
38:02
Speaker 14: that vehicle. That car was the second most important identifier
38:08
Speaker 14: to the DNA to getting access to Brian Coburger and
38:12
Speaker 14: leading to an arrest.
38:13
Speaker 4: So this could be.
38:14
Speaker 14: What investigators need all along to identify who is involved
38:18
Speaker 14: in this crime.
38:20
Speaker 2: So Heather, what about the fact that to the naked eye,
38:24
Speaker 2: to us the video looks blurry?
38:27
Speaker 14: Oh my goodness, and my terrorism investigations, we were able
38:31
Speaker 14: to identify things that you can enhance this footage. Think
38:35
Speaker 14: about what AI can do for us in forensics. This
38:38
Speaker 14: is a perfect example of using AI to clean up
38:41
Speaker 14: an image, remove the blur or slow it down, and
38:44
Speaker 14: have vehicle experts say, I know that this is likely
38:47
Speaker 14: this make a model probably of this year, and then
38:51
Speaker 14: you go into the records and see who in that
38:53
Speaker 14: area owns vehicles that match that description, and it will
38:58
Speaker 14: really pare down the amount of people that need to
39:02
Speaker 14: be questioned at this time.
39:05
Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about the
39:07
Speaker 2: disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll free eight hundred
39:11
Speaker 2: two two five five three two four that's eight hundred
39:15
Speaker 2: call fb I, or if you wish to remain anonymous
39:19
Speaker 2: five two zero eight eight two seven four sixty three
39:24
Speaker 2: repeat five two zero eight eight two seven four six three.
39:29
Speaker 2: We remember an American hero, Chief of Police, Steve Singer
39:35
Speaker 2: Lake Lafayette p D. Missouri, passed away in the line
39:39
Speaker 2: of duty after sixteen years on the force, leaving behind
39:44
Speaker 2: a grieving fiance Athena, and five children. Sentenced to life
39:51
Speaker 2: without dad. American hero Chief of Police Steve Singer Nancy
39:58
Speaker 2: Grace signing off goodbye friend.