Latest / IB Unplugged / Designing the Future: Inside Curriculum Development at the IBO w/ Fidelis Nthenge

Transcript

Designing the Future: Inside Curriculum Development at the IBO w/ Fidelis Nthenge · IB Unplugged

0:00
Welcome to IB Unplugged, a Kognity podcast for IB educators,
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that tackles your submitted challenges and questions by connecting you with
0:08
experts and peers who share their ideas and stories from real classrooms.
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Whether you're a seasoned educator or new to the IB world, each bi weekly episode
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and guest aims to equip you with practical tips and positive inspiration,
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helping you teach with more confidence, creativity, and joy.
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So whether you're walking your dog or commuting to school, hit play and join
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a community of educators ready to learn, laugh, and thrive in your IB journey.
0:35
Hello and welcome to IB Unplugged.
0:37
This week we're talking with Fidelis Nthenge,
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the Director of Curriculum Development at the IB.
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Super interesting person.
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Lots of fun discussion that's coming up in this episode for you.
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Yeah, so we really had a chance to be able to peek behind the curtain
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at the curriculum development process, really learn about how the team works
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with feedback, with the development teams, working with teachers,
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and kind of all the different stakeholders on how it actually does
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evolve over time, how they kind of respond to the changes,
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in the world, in the program, with students
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to really be able to develop a meaningful curriculum.
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And one thing that I really appreciated in our conversation
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was how much she and the IBO really prioritize student agency,
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not just within the actual classes, but within the actual program,
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and how much it's really an important component to what they see
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the future of the IB and the IB program.
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Yeah.
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So if you've ever thought, wow, what is going on with this curriculum?
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Why is there so much stuff in here?
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There's too much content to cover.
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How am I possibly going to do all these things?
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This episode gives so much more insight into the overall process
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of the curriculum itself and how it's developed.
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And I guess the key thing that really stands out for me
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in this conversation, I think for any educator,
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what you can really look forward to hearing here is about how dynamic
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and responsive the IB curriculum team really is when it comes to developing
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curriculum that is relevant, that is important and helps to develop
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young people into being positive contributors to society.
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Fidelis talks a lot about how they look for feedback in all these different forms
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and how much they value that feedback from students and from teachers,
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and really try to honor the experiences of those two stakeholders,
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especially because we know that,
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you know, students
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are the future of what we're trying to create within the curriculum itself.
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And teachers, of course, are the facilitators of that learning experience.
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So, she's highly, highly
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interested in how people are experiencing the curriculum and making sure that
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is dynamic and ready to meet the needs of of anybody who's going through it.
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So lots of great stuff in this episode for you.
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We hope you enjoy.
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Hi Fidelis, welcome to IB Unplugged.
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Hello, John and Courtney.
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Nice to be part of this conversation.
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Thank you for having me. Absolutely.
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Thanks for joining us.
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We're really excited to dive into a conversation around,
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curriculum development and the curriculum at the IB in general.
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But before we do, we'd like to get to know our guests
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a little bit and do a couple of warm up questions.
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And the first one has to do with why did you select a career in education?
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I didn't go to education because probably I thought I would make a lot of money
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at those of us in education know that this is one
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profession that is something like from the heart.
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It's not about how much you make in education.
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And the main reason I went into education is because I am a total believer that,
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education is the way we
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evolve our lives and our quality of living.
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And there is no better way of ensuring that for generations,
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people's quality of life or people's development will get better
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if we invest in education.
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And I wanted to be a key stakeholder in that.
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I wanted to be a key player
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in the landscape where we are talking about
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how we work with young people so that we can develop the kind
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of capabilities that will make them hold a better space, in their life
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and in future, and navigate around the complexities as well.
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That's a beautiful answer. Yeah.
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And on that, I think really thinking about that role of education,
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if you think going forward, what do you see in the next decade or so,
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some of the big changes to expect in secondary education?
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I think one of the things, that we must
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embrace is the fact that the role of the teacher
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and the role of the student and the role of the parent,
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basically key agents in education, those roles will evolve.
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Students will,
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become key players
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in forging their learning and
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in filtering what they consume
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and what they create.
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And that puts the position of the teacher
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in a different level.
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The teachers will mainly become facilitators.
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They can help teach students scaffold,
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on find ways of filtering knowledge
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because children are continuously going to be exposed to a lot of knowledge
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and therefore the role of the teacher
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almost being like the key determinant
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in regards to the learning pathway of students,
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will continue changing and the student
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will hold a bigger space in determining
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how their learning happens and in forging their learning pathways.
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The role of the parent as well
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will change, because we've seen more scenarios
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where formal schooling,
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as we have known it, will continue changing.
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And therefore,
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if there is a way education systems can prepare more materials for parents
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in terms of ensuring that they can guide their young people,
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they can be true partners in the learning journeys of their children.
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That would be great.
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So the role of the parent will change
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in terms of becoming the guiding person, not necessarily
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the person who chooses what kind of education
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or what kind of schooling their child will go through.
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In other words,
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the student will become the key voice in determining their learning,
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and the other agents will become more of supporting or facilitators in learning.
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I appreciate that a whole lot.
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Often when we talk about the future of education,
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we sometimes get caught up on the student or the teacher, but
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it's really refreshing to hear you speak about the role of the parents as well.
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I think often schools kind of get caught up thinking just student
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teacher, just student teacher and almost forget that other stakeholder.
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And I think that the parents can sometimes lose their role
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like, what am I supposed to do here as well?
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So, I really appreciate you mentioning that as well.
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And this idea that we're both those stakeholders can be facilitating
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the learning options and learning opportunities as the student becomes
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the center of their own driven education.
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We were speaking just a moment ago before we actually started the show.
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You know,
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you and I had something in common where you were
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an IBDP coordinator for a while.
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You've had a rich experience.
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And in schools
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before you went on to become the director of curriculum development at IB.
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Talk to us about, you know, what prompted
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that change and what are you doing at the IB now?
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So for years I worked in schools and
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John, as I've said,
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my best position in the school was when I was the IB diploma coordinator.
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And, I just felt like
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I was in such a privileged position
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to help in scaffolding to the teachers,
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the requirements of a great educational experience
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for our young people at 16 years of age,
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because I was the main contact person within the IB,
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I spent a lot of time on what is now called the Program Resource Center.
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Those days used to be called,
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something else, the online curriculum center.
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It was called then.
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I mean, this tells you how long I've been in the IB field, and,
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I would spend a lot of time going through
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any new changes in courses and,
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supporting the teachers in scaffolding that and bringing that
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learning experience into the classroom, while at the same time
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the head of school and, generally, the school leadership, depended on me
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to give guidance in terms of, well, should we
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be moving towards in developing our diploma program in the school.
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So I felt like I was in, such an, a privileged position
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because I also influenced how the kids
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were going to experience that IB diploma program in the school.
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And to me, seeing the children graduate through the school was such a fulfilling,
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experience.
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A job satisfaction for me,
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but also a satisfaction as a parent,
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because I've also been an IB parent.
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I always envisioned my own children going through this,
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and therefore I gave it my best.
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So it was my best position.
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But how that evolved is that,
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when I eventually became the head of school,
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I thought I should
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continue teaching at least 1 or 2 classes,
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and I kept my economics class even as a head of school.
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Sometimes I would teach the business class, and,
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I thought I was concentrated or focused on one school community,
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and therefore my impact went as far as that school community.
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And I had always had this dream that I would like to impact
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greater, not just my school community.
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I would like to be a global influence
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in the kind of education that young people will engage in.
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And that's when I started thinking about working for the IB
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and then I moved to the International Baccalaureate.
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At that time, I moved as a school services, managing the diploma program,
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and I was responsible for Europe, Middle East and Africa
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and moved on to be a global
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head of IB World schools.
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But thought that,
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by the time the curriculum comes to us
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so that IB World Schools can work with the schools to ensure implementation
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with fidelity, it's already been decided by the curriculum team of the IB.
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Sure.
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And I thought a greater impact would be putting myself in the center
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of deciding what really ends up in those diploma course guides.
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What ends up in the Primary Years
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program, what ends up in the Middle Years program?
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What is that curriculum that actually now goes to the schools?
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And what is that curriculum framework that we will hand over to schools
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and implement?
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So I brought in the school's perspective,
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the implementation perspective.
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And that has come into the design
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and informing the curriculum managers
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in the IB what is really essential,
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what is needed in the schools, like not just what are the IB things,
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and we should have this in this, but what do we think is needed.
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And therefore I provide that what is needed.
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What should be going to the schools.
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What will create the best engagement
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between the teacher and the student in the classroom.
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So that's how I ended up in curriculum development.
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I never thought that I would be working in curriculum development,
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but hey, the schools were a good place for me to be.
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But being in the team that, designs
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what will end up in the classroom is even more fulfilling for me.
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Yeah.
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I would love for you
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to talk a little bit about what it looks like for your team
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when you are developing the curriculum, like,
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how does this process work within your team?
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Because the program probably that is,
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mostly known,
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especially
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for the children who have to go to university,
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is there be a diploma program and there be career related program.
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I would want to pick some of the courses,
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in the diploma program, how we develop those.
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Yeah.
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So it's not just that the curriculum manager sits down and says,
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oh, I think this is what we need to be teaching in economics,
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or this is what we should be having in mathematics.
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You mean there's more thought than that?
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There is a whole process that goes into these.
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So, even where to start from when we launch a course guide,
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when the course guide lands in the schools, for example,
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this time in September, we will have psychology, for example.
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First year teaching this September.
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As soon as that begins this
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September, the curriculum manager, the head,
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the assessment manager and a few other people will embark on what we call as
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a research and development phase
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for that course, for that particular course, this happens
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for all the subjects across a diploma, all of them.
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And in that research phase, which lasts about two years,
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by the end of that phase,
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that small team will have consulted with
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academicians in that field in this case would be psychology.
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They would have consulted with thought leaders
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as well universities, other organizations and whatever they are doing,
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other education organizations, not just the IB.
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And then the kids will write their exams,
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at the end of two years, as soon as we get the first,
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exam results back,
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we go and check whether our learning outcomes
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or the objectives of the course were actually met.
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And the only way we can check that is through the diploma results.
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So we check which of the objectives, how did the students perform and all that.
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And that is a another feedback loop for the curriculum manager
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at the end of the two years.
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So we get the student performance we have been researching on in this area.
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And then you pull all this together and the curriculum manager
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begins what we call development meetings for this course.
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And you probably are aware that the way we do our development meetings is that we
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engage a lot from the IB community because we are strong believers
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in co-creating our educational office
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with our own community, including the students.
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So we bring in representatives from the classroom.
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Teachers will bring in coordinators like you,
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John, will bring in other thought leaders in that field of psychology,
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will have meetings in person, online,
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hybrid, different ways of collaborating, and the curriculum manager
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will continue having this development meetings
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for a period of about two years, three years.
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And then they start now, pulling together the next iteration
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of the psychology course, the next iteration of the next course.
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And, you know, in about between 5
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to 6, 7 years, we will have a new course.
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So the process involves a lot of collaboration
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and co-creation with our community.
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But I have to underline that the IB community
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is the strongest stakeholder
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in co-designing with us.
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Yeah.
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And I think, you know, we can see that any sort of
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anybody who leads a curriculum anywhere or as a curriculum educator,
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you know, that you get those sort of feedback surveys,
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you get that opportunity to feedback on it.
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Like as a biology teacher,
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we've just had the first assessment of the, 2025, the new biology one.
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And right away I was getting, you know, feedback from our opportunities
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to give feedback to the IB on how it went and how was the pacing of it,
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what did it work?
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What was difficult about getting this course all the way through?
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So I think that's definitely something
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I really, really appreciate is that it's not a stagnant we've said it, now
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you've just got to do it and carry it on and we're going to leave it that way.
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I think you really do embody this idea of
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we are going to be lifelong learners about this,
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and we want to continually develop our curriculum.
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We want to find ways to make it more impactful and better.
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And I think that's a really useful way of making sure
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that there's something that's relevant and new for everybody,
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you know, every 6 or 7 years, as you just said.
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John, you pick something very important, just keeping it relevant.
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It needs to be relevant, otherwise it loses meaning.
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And especially with our young people, they need to see sense in
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why are they learning these topics in biology?
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It it needs to remain relevant.
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And you picked a good subject - Biology.
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We don't even have to wait for all those years.
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We've already gotten feedback that it is such a wide course.
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Sure.
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And right now the curriculum manager is working on
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how we can even make certain changes before even those five years are over.
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I see, I see, okay. And what's interesting to me
18:17
about this whole thing is that you are getting that feedback.
18:20
But as I would notice just from the previous iteration
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of the biology syllabus, for example, to what it is
18:25
now, there's been a big push to a lot more conceptual understanding of
18:29
like bridging better ideas
18:30
and different connections together as opposed to more content.
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And, you know, we were discussing with somebody else
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with regard to the psychology curriculum that he brought up,
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that there's a big change there as well, with focus on like
18:40
the contexts in the concepts and this sort of thing.
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And I'm wondering, you know, if you could expand on kind of your time here.
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How has that curriculum development shifted over the last few years?
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What would have been some of the biggest changes that you've seen in the way
18:55
that the curriculum is put together for all the different courses?
18:59
A great question.
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And probably the members of the IB community will know that broadly,
19:06
the way we design, our courses,
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especially in the diploma,
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we are guided by three key things is,
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we call them the three C’s: the content because we cannot leave out content.
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I mean, learners will need some deep understanding of certain content.
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It is,
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the contexts and the concepts.
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That is what you just talked about, concepts.
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So we call them the three C’s, the content, the concept and the context.
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And that enables us to have
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that kind of guidance and that framework
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that once we've designed the course,
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allows the teachers to implement
19:51
those courses in the classroom within different contexts.
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Of course, there is nothing as difficult as designing
19:59
a curriculum for the world, for different countries.
20:03
Yeah, well, in national curriculum,
20:07
you have guidance, you know, that the country's learning outcomes
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these what we want, these what our we want our young people to graduate with.
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And it is guided by the national requirements of that particular country.
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But we are talking about designing a curriculum for the world.
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Not just say for Netherlands or for Finland.
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Or for Denmark, or for Chile. No.
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We are designing such that it can be implemented
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in all these different countries, and that's why we follow that framework.
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You wanted to say something, John, about the way we disagree.
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Well, I was just commenting on how massive that task must be
20:45
because we were talking
20:46
with, Matt a little while ago about, director of assessment, and,
20:50
he was talking about how he has to have an assessment
20:52
that will allow him to assess if somebody is, you know, from a level one
20:56
all the way to a level seven, you've got to get that information
20:58
and maybe, you know, 1.5 hour paper or something like this.
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And I thought, oh, that's got to be a massive task.
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But then when you kind of step that back
21:05
and just recognize this curriculum has to be able to be implemented
21:09
in the most heavily resourced schools that have access all these things
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and the least resourced schools, those that maybe don't have all this stuff.
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And even as a like I get to do workshops with the IB as well.
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And I did a workshop on incorporating fieldwork and
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I had some people who are really like, I have no, I don't have this equipment.
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I don't have access to this thing.
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How do I possibly implement these things?
21:31
And what I really loved about the way, at least again,
21:33
Biology Guide was constructed is like you can build things.
21:37
There's still tons of creativity that you can come up with.
21:39
It'll build this out here.
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And so I guess there's not really a question there.
21:44
I want to recognize the impressive nature of having to create a curriculum
21:48
that is accessible for everybody, everywhere, regardless of their context.
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And that's got to be a massive job for your team.
21:55
It's massive.
21:58
But my team,
21:59
they are largely from, the practitioners field.
22:03
They are largely from education.
22:05
And you know what it means when you put educators together
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and they can talk and argue about, you know, we should be having these and
22:13
and therefore, you ask me, how do we ensure that,
22:17
there is a clear direction that we follow in the way we design.
22:22
We have a well-established curriculum model
22:28
that every curriculum manager
22:30
follows in building any of that courses.
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And this curriculum model is not only for the diploma and the career related.
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It's also the same curriculum model that we use for the Primary Years program.
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The same will use for the Middle Years program.
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So curriculum managers are also guided by that curriculum model
22:51
and also the way we will write it and how it will be presented to the schools
22:56
we have a certain content model
22:59
that we have to follow. Now in the curriculum model,
23:04
when you talk to the Director of Assessment,
23:06
probably you will have talks about how we ensure that when we design the courses,
23:12
we also design the assessment model
23:15
that the assessment team is going to operationalize.
23:18
But that assessment model needs also
23:21
to be coherent across certain groups like we cannot have an assessment
23:27
model in group three individuals and societies.
23:31
That is so significantly different between geography and business and psychology.
23:37
I mean,
23:38
individuals and society is our largest group and kind of a bit different.
23:43
But if you think about implementing a curriculum model or an assessment model
23:48
for the sciences is probably much better, much smoother.
23:52
Now to keep this team coherent,
23:55
they are guided by the curriculum model, and they will be guided
23:59
in terms of publishing the content by the content model.
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But as you can imagine,
24:06
this is not a rigid model.
24:08
As I said, education is always evolving
24:13
and therefore year after year, this model I can tell you it's not kept rigid,
24:18
especially when I put together the curriculum manager senior team,
24:22
the level of discussions and arguments and what we should be removing
24:26
from the model
24:27
and what we should be adding, and what is left for the teachers in the classroom.
24:30
And how much agency
24:32
are we giving teachers and students by keeping this model like this?
24:35
So all these discussions are there,
24:37
and it's a beauty of the work when you pull together all these people.
24:43
Are you an IB educator wanting
24:45
to improve your practice and needing just a bit more support getting there.
24:49
Ever wanted to learn more about a specific aspect of the diploma program?
24:53
Or just ask a question to an educational theorist about a specific IB aspect?
24:57
IB Unplugged is the place for you.
24:59
Simply visit kognity.com/ibunplugged to submit your question to us,
25:04
and have your question explored in more detail in an upcoming episode.
25:08
And now, back to the show.
25:11
So when you
25:11
mentioned how the model is flexible,
25:15
am I right in thinking that those sort of three C’s
25:17
you were talking about before are kind of the main curriculum model?
25:20
They're always going to be they're always going to,
25:22
we're always going to talk about the content, the context and the concepts,
25:25
and it's just what kind of gets the more emphasis,
25:27
or is there more to that curriculum model that you're talking about?
25:30
So the one thing that we want to ensure
25:36
is that we kind of a shared understanding of the knowledge,
25:41
skills, attitudes, values and value systems
25:45
that our schools can be able to enhance,
25:50
when they get whatever we have designed.
25:53
So we are guided by that.
25:55
We always want to ask ourselves, what are the knowledge,
26:00
what are the areas of knowledge in this course?
26:03
What are the skills?
26:05
What are
26:06
the attitudes and the values and value
26:09
systems and curriculum managers are guided by that.
26:14
The curriculum model, I don't need to go through,
26:18
the boring process of sharing with you the details of a curriculum model.
26:21
But our curriculum model, of course, is built based on
26:25
our IB mission and our philosophy.
26:27
It's guided by that.
26:30
So it is,
26:32
we start with a wire, as you know, that is our mission.
26:35
And then we will go into the what we develop.
26:39
And then we will go into,
26:42
what are the key, contexts with which our curriculum will be implemented.
26:47
So it's a whole process, but it is mainly guided by our mission.
26:52
The why. Why are we in education and therefore what,
26:57
and then with whom later on?
27:00
Because we have to design it for different contexts as well.
27:05
And from the director of assessment team, we also design for them
27:10
how well are we going to be able to assess that?
27:15
And we leave space, a lot of space for teachers also to decide
27:20
how will they implemented that in the classroom.
27:23
That's why it has to be not so rigid.
27:27
It's quite a flexible model.
27:29
Let me say that. And as you know, it is,
27:33
agile in that I just said
27:35
midway through a course, once we've launched our course,
27:38
midway through the life, the shelf life of that course,
27:42
if we realize there are certain things we need to change,
27:45
we are not shy to change it.
27:47
And our schools are fantastic.
27:49
We'll say, I think we need to change this aspect.
27:51
We need to bring in these and probably remove this component and
27:56
our curriculum model gives us that flexibility as well.
28:01
As you're talking about the model and the flexibility and I'm
28:04
just thinking about it, it's almost it's, it's necessary be for it
28:08
to work for so many different contexts, so many different schools and countries.
28:11
So I think that flexibility, was maybe came out of necessity,
28:16
but now has become one of probably the biggest strengths of the curriculum.
28:20
And you've talked a little bit about teacher agency and really where it's
28:24
a curriculum that teachers can take it and mold it to fit
28:28
what they know that they need in the class.
28:30
But I want to take it a little bit further in the IB, it's also really
28:36
important to have student agency and really showing the student voice.
28:41
And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you feel like
28:45
the curriculums that you're developing, especially maybe now
28:48
some of the more recent syllabi are enabling and not even enabling,
28:54
but fostering more student voice and student agency in their learning.
28:58
Thank you Courtney
28:59
for bringing in the students
29:02
and the student voice. In the beginning, I had talked about
29:07
how education is going to evolve and students will take,
29:12
a larger space in the platform
29:14
in, forging their learning pathways.
29:18
Whether it is formal learning, informal learning,
29:22
whether it is also, making decisions
29:25
in terms of how they engage with technology,
29:30
to facilitate their learning.
29:34
We try to bring in students in giving us feedback
29:38
at different stages of our curriculum design.
29:42
And this is so important for us.
29:45
We try to leave space in our curriculum
29:48
for teachers to co-create learning experiences
29:53
in the classroom with their students, with their learners.
29:58
I would just want to focus
30:01
mainly on what the IB has been doing and what the IB's thinking is
30:07
in terms of how we engage with these vital
30:11
stakeholder in learning.
30:14
If you think about it,
30:16
who are we creating this curriculum for?
30:19
Who are we creating these learning experiences for?
30:22
They are for our young people.
30:25
If it does not matter and it
30:27
does not make sense to the young people, is a waste.
30:32
And therefore that is so important.
30:35
Educators, policymakers,
30:38
political leaders, all types of leaders, parents
30:41
spend a lot of time designing and deciding
30:45
and putting in place what the young people should be doing.
30:50
And more often than not,
30:52
those young people are not invited
30:54
in that space, to discuss about
30:58
what is so vital for them.
31:01
And that is just limiting
31:04
their agency and their voice so much.
31:08
If we bring in our young people
31:11
in the discussions, in the decision making, in the deliberations,
31:15
where we are creating what they are going to engage with,
31:20
they get more involved,
31:22
they all need more, and they are able
31:25
to see the meaning in it more.
31:28
And more so to have a purpose for learning.
31:32
And to have a reason
31:34
as to why do I go to school?
31:35
Where do I have to learn mathematics?
31:37
Why do I have to engage with this?
31:39
Do I need a second language?
31:42
If we bring in the student more, the young person
31:46
more in these discussions, then it makes more sense.
31:50
And therefore the IB has come up with an a number of initiatives
31:54
to try and engage with our young people, to co-create with our young people.
31:59
You probably know that we have
32:02
a big initiative
32:03
called Festival of Hope, where we engage with our young people
32:07
in their community, because from those festivals of hope,
32:12
we actually see the action of our education.
32:15
We see it happening and that is a way of the IB
32:18
also getting feedback and hearing from them.
32:22
When I have attended festivals of Hope, and listen to what young people are
32:26
talking about, I go like, that needs to be well embedded in our curriculum.
32:30
That needs to come into the curriculum.
32:33
And definitely we cannot measure everything.
32:36
But as long as we put that, we afford
32:40
that, possibility for students to engage with that,
32:44
it will be in their classroom practice.
32:48
It will happen. So that's why when we have,
32:51
a very formal process now in place of,
32:57
having focus groups with the young people, alumni as well as students,
33:01
we have a formal process of how we bring in students
33:05
and alumni into our development meetings.
33:08
Earlier on, I talked about how we develop the courses.
33:11
We want to bring in, young people into our development meetings.
33:15
We would like to bring in young people
33:18
to give us feedback in terms of, can you take away this?
33:23
This doesn't make sense.
33:25
My brother said that they learned this.
33:27
I don't understand where we are putting this in there.
33:30
And we owe it to them.
33:33
And most important,
33:36
right now we know how much young people are struggling with their mental health.
33:42
We know even how much teachers
33:45
are struggling with mental health as well,
33:47
because they are expected to manage all these.
33:50
So most important is also hearing
33:53
from the young people what is manageable.
33:56
And one thing my team is so committed to is reducing the workload
34:02
and the expectations on these young people.
34:06
So all these feedback,
34:08
we have a number of channels that we get from,
34:12
our young people, our students, whether it is through the schools
34:16
or whether it's directly with the young people, whether they are
34:19
the alumni who have graduated or whether they are people who are
34:22
who are still in school, even the youngest, even
34:25
the primary year's program.
34:27
We have developed service where we can be able to get feedback,
34:30
because if they co-create with us, they will see more sense
34:35
as to why they need to engage with it.
34:38
Now, I think it's such an important topic that it's easy
34:42
to separate curriculum from the impact of the curriculum.
34:46
Which, like you're saying, navigating,
34:49
teacher workloads and student workloads and things like that, but all of it
34:52
is ultimately coming from the curriculum, from that curriculum team.
34:56
And I'm wondering if you could share any examples of how you have made
35:01
any changes or considerations for either teacher, student workload or novice
35:06
getting these kind of teacher expectations, that are put on them.
35:10
If remember, earlier on
35:11
I talked about three C’s, the content, the concepts and the context.
35:16
The one thing that has been,
35:19
emphasized in our curriculum model and with our curriculum team
35:24
is for every new course that they develop,
35:28
content must be reduced by 30%.
35:31
Oh, okay.
35:32
For every course.
35:34
Why?
35:34
Because that gives space
35:37
for the teachers and the students in the classroom
35:42
to engage more in their approaches to learning, in developing
35:47
those kind of skills that
35:48
we would like the young people to develop.
35:51
They will engage more in human development,
35:55
not just content,
35:57
not engage with content, content and content.
36:01
And even kind of almost defining concepts
36:06
for certain education systems is also vital
36:10
because when we design our curriculum, we also make assumptions that the teachers
36:16
are designers of instruction, are designers of curriculum.
36:20
You know, we make that assumption.
36:21
But all these teachers have been trained in different national bodies,
36:26
and the teachers are trained differently in, say,
36:31
South Africa from the way they will be trained in Japan.
36:34
And we make a lot of assumptions that or the teacher will be able to do this
36:38
and this. It's not every single teacher who is a confident
36:42
instructional designer or a confident curriculum designer
36:46
to be able to break it down and know this is a way I need to start with
36:51
maybe my assessment approach, and then I'll go backwards
36:54
to my unit planning to see what will happen in the classroom.
36:58
It's not every teacher who can do that.
37:00
So the other thing that we've asked our curriculum managers
37:03
to do in terms of reducing pressure and workload,
37:07
is also to give examples of how they can do the planning.
37:13
We don't make it mandatory, but we try to scaffold it
37:18
more for teachers, especially teachers who are new in the teaching profession
37:22
or who are not yet as confident as other teachers, for example,
37:26
having an a purely inquiry based approach to learning in the classroom
37:32
just for a history teacher, for example,
37:35
will look so different in Sweden
37:40
than it will look like in Ghana.
37:43
It looks different.
37:45
These teachers have been trained differently and therefore as a team
37:49
in the curriculum of the IB, if we can help scaffold that,
37:54
the teacher in Ghana may be confident enough in knowing the learners so well
37:59
and knowing how they would like to
38:01
actually go about the learning process, then probably the teacher in Sweden.
38:05
But the fact that we've provided extra tools for these teachers,
38:09
they can be able to pick these different tools and make it easier.
38:13
But the most important is to ensure that there is less pressure
38:19
and less expectations on the teacher and on the student,
38:23
and we are affording space
38:26
for students to be creators of their own
38:30
learning approaches, and not just consumers in the classroom.
38:39
I would say that's definitely been noticeable.
38:41
As I think about the other curricular, it seems like there's been less of it
38:44
or a drop of some of the content in a bit more on the conceptual understanding
38:48
and a bit more emphasis on that.
38:50
But as you were talking just now, is really thinking of how
38:53
difficult that must be to really get that balance right,
38:56
to get the feedback from students or from teachers and try to understand,
39:00
okay, we understand the pressure and that's where stuff is high.
39:03
And so how can we reduce this?
39:05
And yet at the same time, what I can say with my students is you're doing
39:09
the IB diploma program like this isn't a walk in the park.
39:14
It's reputable for a reason.
39:16
There's a reason that universities prefer IB diploma program students.
39:20
And you're embarking on a challenging thing.
39:22
This is a good chance for you to grow.
39:24
And so when I hear feedback, of course I want to be listening to it
39:27
and understand why students are overwhelmed.
39:29
But at the same time,
39:29
I want to kind of encourage them and push them and say,
39:32
this is a very important learning step for you.
39:33
And we're developing your ability to manage a lot of things
39:36
at once, for developing your skills and that sort of thing.
39:39
And that's not just around the concepts or the content
39:41
that might be in your curriculum.
39:43
It's also around, just like the typical effective skills,
39:46
like how to live a life that has a lot of things going on in it.
39:50
How do you manage that balance between hearing people say, like,
39:54
we're under pressure, we can't get all this done,
39:56
and also maintaining the rigor of the IB that is so well,
40:00
you know, recognized across universities and really the world.
40:04
I think this is one of the biggest challenge.
40:07
But I believe with,
40:09
our school community,
40:12
and with all the discussions we have with the universities
40:15
and the higher institutions of learning, I think we can get there.
40:21
If we think about it, for the IB diploma
40:24
to be this recognized across the world, that then
40:28
IB people who are in these offices where we are started
40:33
from somewhere, that then the schools
40:37
who are there in the spaces
40:39
where you are today started from somewhere.
40:43
And we have to be able to influence
40:47
that way.
40:49
We do not want to jeopardize the progression of young people.
40:52
When they finish their diploma.
40:54
They should be able to continue with their education.
40:58
And the diploma is seen as a qualification.
41:02
Of course, a recognized qualification.
41:05
And therefore it goes also with that rigor.
41:09
But we are also the same
41:10
people that can be able to move the needle by preparing that
41:15
with the higher institutions, with the universities,
41:19
we can start small, but we can bring about the change.
41:24
Actually, the IB you probably know,
41:26
is already piloting
41:29
a systems transformation diploma with some of the schools.
41:33
Yeah.
41:34
And hopefully we will be able
41:37
to get to have more schools take on this kind of diploma
41:42
because apart from reducing the kind of pressure,
41:46
it actually expands the capabilities of the students
41:51
to be adaptive problem solvers,
41:54
to navigate complex systems, because that's what we have.
41:58
And if we are able
42:00
to continue pushing this with universities and making them,
42:04
there are many universities actually do appreciate that,
42:08
that we need to be going this way
42:12
and we need to be united
42:15
as a school community, as an IB community, as an
42:19
international education community, to push in that space
42:24
because it's not that the universities may not want these,
42:29
it's probably that dialog and that working together and appreciating that.
42:35
So I know it will take time.
42:37
But we are doing that.
42:39
We are moving in that space.
42:42
And the beauty is that there are many schools that are also joining us
42:45
and moving in that space.
42:47
But if the IB managed to, together
42:50
with the school community, manage to get the diploma that recognize
42:54
we should be able to get the recognition
42:57
of that kind of educational offer
43:00
at that level, as an acceptance
43:03
either to universities, to colleges, or to the place of work.
43:08
So balancing it
43:10
is always a tricky part, because the diploma also gets accredited
43:16
by different countries, by different institutions.
43:20
And we have to make sure that that what is perceived as the standard remains.
43:27
But can we keep that standard as well,
43:29
by reducing workload on students and on teachers? We can.
43:36
It depends on what do you define as a standard.
43:40
What are we more interested in?
43:42
Are we more interested in that rigor of a young person who is
43:46
16, 17 years old, going through schooling and they're so miserable,
43:51
or we want them to experience that kind of development,
43:55
that we want to see in them as they experience their schooling.
44:01
I think it's about time we move it.
44:04
We need to be making that move.
44:06
It's pretty exciting.
44:07
I mean, what you're saying right now is exciting.
44:09
It's the idea of like, whereas universities were kind
44:11
of always the gate holder of what's going to be recognized.
44:14
It's almost like things are kind of shifting a bit more where the IB
44:17
has this chance of kind of defining a curriculum that is more meaningful
44:20
and able to have a better impact on young people's lives.
44:23
So they can, of course, fill out the mission,
44:25
you know, of the IB itself, to go and create
44:27
a better and more peaceful world through intercultural understanding and respect.
44:30
And this sort of thing might be able to push more
44:33
what universities are interpreting as valuable education.
44:36
Do you feel like that shift is happening?
44:39
And I guess to what extent is that kind of the goal
44:41
of the curriculum development team with the IB?
44:43
I don't want to name universities, but as I've said,
44:47
there are several universities, whether as shifted
44:50
because these children who are doing
44:53
the diploma, the pilot diploma that we have with
44:58
a number of schools will be proceeding to universities.
45:02
They will proceed to the same universities.
45:05
So there is a shift. But
45:10
we need to do more.
45:12
We still need to do more.
45:14
So the shift is there.
45:16
But we also do not realize how powerful we are
45:20
as a pre-university pre-college, qualification,
45:25
both from the school's perspective and from the IB perspective.
45:28
We may not appreciate the power we have of influencing
45:33
the thinking in the universities.
45:36
If you look at the number of children who are choosing
45:38
actually not to go straight to university after they graduate,
45:42
either is from the diploma or from any national curriculum in Australia,
45:46
in the UK,
45:48
there are more and more children choosing not necessarily to go to university.
45:52
That is already a message for us.
45:54
So what should we be focusing on?
45:56
Ensuring that kids are going to those universities,
45:59
or actually preparing our children to be ready
46:02
for the for a complex world to be able to navigate complexity?
46:06
I think there is a strong message being sent also
46:09
by our young people with the choices that they are making.
46:12
And if we take all this
46:14
into consideration, it's a strong message that we need to be reviewing.
46:17
So you ask me, how are we looking into that in the curriculum?
46:21
We are developing a curriculum
46:24
that will provide schools with different pathways.
46:28
You probably know already that we are doing the 16
46:31
plus review, which is a 16 plus age of educational offer.
46:35
And right now we have a number of, options
46:40
that we think will be available for schools.
46:44
There are schools that will probably continue offering
46:47
the diploma in a similar way as it is offered today,
46:51
but there are schools that are probably going to offer the diploma
46:55
in the way that the pilot is being offered with the systems transformation,
47:00
and there are schools probably that are going to embed
47:03
more of a career related offer.
47:06
In the 16 plus.
47:08
It is up on the IB to know how they are going to package all these
47:13
qualifications, these qualifications, because they are all important.
47:17
Yeah.
47:18
No, I think that that's so great to be able to foster different pathways
47:22
and really be able to enable that in the different schools
47:25
and for the different learners within the schools.
47:27
And while we're in this kind of progress
47:30
with the pilot and things like that, I'm wondering to kind of some things up,
47:34
what changes in curriculum do you hope to see in the near future?
47:40
You've talked a bit
47:41
about different structures and things like that, but yeah.
47:45
What kind of changes would you hope to see coming soon?
47:48
My dream is that
47:52
we ensure that
47:53
we have embedded in our curriculum design
47:57
the possibility of students
48:02
to progressively develop key competencies
48:07
that they need in the future.
48:11
The key competencies.
48:14
We may not be able to assess, competencies.
48:18
We may be able always to assess
48:21
skills, but we may not be able to fully assess
48:24
competencies in the regular way of assessment.
48:28
But as a schooling system, we must be able to figure out
48:33
how we give that holistic
48:36
performance for a student
48:39
or that holistic development for a student.
48:43
And that is a dream I have for the curriculum:
48:46
competency development.
48:49
And hopefully also have
48:53
mirror competencies for the teachers
48:56
to be able to facilitate that development
48:59
for the students, because we may
49:02
develop the most glossy curriculum, the best curriculum,
49:07
the IB does not implement the curriculum.
49:10
It is implemented by the teachers.
49:13
So if we have a set of competencies and capabilities
49:16
that we would want to see our young people graduate with,
49:19
or develop as they go through their learning journey,
49:22
there will be corresponding competencies and capabilities for the teachers
49:27
to enable that.
49:29
And as well is the school leadership.
49:32
If we are able to mirror those side by side,
49:36
then we know that we have the best environment in the schools
49:40
for the young people to flourish, to thrive.
49:44
So that's my dream:
49:46
competencies for both the teachers and the students and the school
49:50
leadership, because the kids need the best environment to develop.
49:57
And therefore to give their best selves and to really
50:01
discover who they really are. Right?
50:03
Yeah, absolutely.
50:05
Fidelis has been super inspiring.
50:07
And I think my biggest takeaway from this is just how
50:10
responsive and dynamic curriculum development really is.
50:14
And the curriculum that is produced from the IB’s.
50:17
Yeah, I think I knew it before our conversation.
50:20
I knew it wasn't something that was just staying on the shelf and collecting dust,
50:23
but this helped to really bring that to light of just how dynamic it is,
50:27
how important it is to get feedback from all sorts of different areas.
50:32
You know, I knew about the Festival of Hope,
50:33
and I've kind of, you know, been showing
50:35
our students to get involved in that as much as I could.
50:37
And it only dawned on me, when you're speaking about that,
50:39
of course, that's a way of gathering feedback
50:41
just as much as any other way that you can then be more responsive
50:45
to the curriculum that you design.
50:47
This has been super inspiring for me, and I hope for anybody else
50:50
who's been listening as well, to recognize or to realize that the the curriculum
50:53
that's being developed for the IB is constantly forward looking
50:56
and it's constantly trying to create what's best for our for our young people.
50:59
It was really good having this conversation, because I really
51:03
like talking about education and especially in regards to young people
51:09
and the space that they hold in, forging their learning pathways.
51:13
Us too.
51:14
That's why we do it.
51:15
So thank you so much.
51:18
Thank you, thank you Courtney.
51:19
Thank you John, I really appreciate this conversation.
51:22
Okay. Thanks so much for taking the time.
51:25
Thank you, thank you. Okay. Bye bye.
51:28
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast hosted by John Patton
51:32
and Courtney Marlene and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
51:34
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51:38
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51:39
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51:42
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51:44
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51:46
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51:50
See you next time.