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White Knights & Reviling Wives an interview with Pastor David Edgington · Goon Tavern

• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, welcome to the name is I am thank you so much for tuning in to the coon camera.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I am the goon and I just am really excited today because I have an awesome guest, the man, the myth, and the legend, and he is here with me right now, and we are going to talk about his brand new book, Hot Off the Press, with New Christendom Press, and it is Pastor David Edgington.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome so much to the show, sir.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, great to be here.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for inviting me.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're most, most welcome here in beautiful Arizona, and not as hot, and I'm glad I came in the winter.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, indeed.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: So so I mean, first question to start off with like, so how did you get started in this ministry?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: What what was there a pin a pinnacle point of where you're like, you know what?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, this is something I want to focus on.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is where God's directing me, and I want to be a part of it.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first of all, I've been a pastor now for 34 years, and part of the training in pastoral ministry was to learn about counseling, which was one of the things I did not learn at seminary very well.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I got trained in neuthetic counseling back in the middle nineties, I guess it was, and did a lot of counseling, just been doing that for you know over thirty years now.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: And this developed into a full-time ministry back in 2014, I believe it was.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: And what uh what happened was that that I I just hit on this issue of the abusive or the better word is the reviling wife, and I found that nobody was talking about it.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I kept running into it in counseling and I couldn't find any biblical material on it.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: So in 2015, I wrote the book, The Abusive Wife.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really good book, by the way.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it stayed kind of quiet and under the radar.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't get any publishers to publish it, first of all.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: No Christian publishers would touch it.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's very shocking.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah, so well, yeah, it isn't it isn't, but sure, but um, but then once I started doing podcasts on it a few years ago, then it just exploded and the attention was yeah, was ramped up in exponentially.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it was because of the same issue I found that nobody was talking about it, nobody was addressing this issue.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now, ten years later, uh you know, uh eleven years later, actually, now as we're broadcasting, there's still nothing on this topic.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's still no books that are written on this, and that was the reason that I wrote the second one, White Knights and Reviling Wise, How Feminism Destroys Families.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because I've been contacted by so many people around the world, not just in my own states, not just in America, but around the world, that this is happening at epidemic levels, and still churches, pastors, counselors will not address it.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do you think like, cause you you obviously um if you could give the definition also of like what a white knight is, and uh like one of the questions that kind of like leads into that is like, what is it that you think um is the main reason?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just like an automatic like wiring?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Has it been brainwashing over time, a cultural reason of why these pastors and counselors usually always default to this type of action when it comes to these like difficult issues with couples and marriage?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it's because of the uh indoctrination of feminism in our society that is infiltrated into the church, uh it's infiltrated into the seminaries, and it's got basically the default position now, it's the way you're trained to think.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: So if that's the way you're trained to think, when this issue comes up, you're just gonna automatically take a feminist approach on it.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: So the white knight is the one that defends the wife, even when she's clearly in sin, even when she's bitter and nasty and blaspheming.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it it's unbelievable the things that that come out of the women's mouths.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: And uh the pastor blames the husband for it.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: You go, Why why would you blame the husband for that?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: If she's angry and clearly in sin, why wouldn't you hold the wife accountable?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you blame the husband for her sin?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: But the white knight thinks he's noble, he thinks he's the hero, he thinks he's coming to the rescue of a damsel in distress, and he's willfully blind to the sins of the wife.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder too, like, because I I find that crazy as well, because in my head, I always thought, like, well, the gospel and uh not only shepherding should go for both sides, you know.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's it's it saddens me too, because I I I I've heard of some women that I've known that they they feel they don't know what it is like to be a godly wife, they don't know what it is to be a godly mother, right?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems like it's just kind of become these uh a lot of women's Bible studies have just become these like you know, self-help groups in a way, right?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than having some depth to it and meat to it, which is because you think of it, every every Christian woman in a church, that's their main uh struggle, would be probably their marriage.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I would think everyone, it's as everyone knows if you're married, at some point it's gonna become a little difficult.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's just natural.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, right.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: What I've gotten a lot of feedback, and this is another question, is I've had people tell me, because I'm pretty vocal about this issue as well online, and I usually get uh pushback of where, well, this is an issue that uh older women should handle in terms of like, you know, like how it talks about like the older should disciple the younger.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I also get uh the idea of like where people tell me, Well, this is a pastor's should deal with this issue, and so should uh like older women.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you say to that?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because it seems like the the idea basically they would say to me is that, well, you are uh a man and you're not a pastor and you're not a woman, so it's not gonna fall, it's gonna fall on deaf ears, or it's not gonna stay in your own lane, kind of thing, is usually the response.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what would you say to someone who would say that?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is that biblical?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is that wrong?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Or well, I think we can cover that from a lot of different directions.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, for the young women that are coming out with this feminist bent, their own mothers should be training them of what it means to be a godly woman.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: What does it mean to be feminine?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: This is one of the questions I always ask.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: What what would you say it means to be feminine?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and a lot of times it's a deer in the headlights that they're like, I've never really thought of that.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it should be starting in the home.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that doesn't mean the father should should not be involved in it either.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's where the primary issue should be taking place.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it should be beginning in the home with little girls when they're growing up.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: So now let's let's move on to she's a little bit older now, and now she's in the church.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: And now we have the problem I've just described about the white knight pastor.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: He's not doing this, he's not handling this the right way, he's not helping these women.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: So to say that, well, this should only be the pastors doing this is kind of a a crazy way to to view it, isn't it?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he's not doing it.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: So what does that mean?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody just stays quiet until he figures it out.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I go, no.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think the pastor has some inherent authority over you as the lay person in the church.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: I believe in the priesthood of of believers.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: I believe the pastor does have authority to preach and teach God's word, but he doesn't have authority over the husband in a marriage to displace the husband and say, Wife, listen to me, not to your husband.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is often where it goes off the rails.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: So a man like you that says, Hey, I want to speak on this issue, I go, Good for you.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think you should be speaking on it.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because the church is failing at it, and we need to reform and revive the church.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: We don't want to destroy the church, we want to reform it and revive it.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so the priesthood of believers says, you know, you've got just as much of a right as I do, though I've been a pastor for probably almost as long as you've been alive.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: I still look at that and I go, that's okay.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm grateful for young guys like you that say, No, I won't I want to speak up about this issue too, because I'm not seeing the church handle it really well.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I cause because the way I took it too, it it almost seemed like a a liberal response in a way, like, well, you're you're a guy, so you can't speak on these issues.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: But we would obviously, as Christians, scoff at someone if they're liberal and they said, well, no one's gonna tell a Christian guy, like, well, you can't say abortion's wrong.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're not a woman.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, right.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's it's funny how we kind of piggyback on the liberal construct of how they would respond to something in the same way, almost like, well, you're a man, you talk to men issues, if you're woman, talk about women's issues, which honestly, I've tried my best to try to encourage wiz women to say, like, you know, please, please do speak about these things, share your your life experience of how this has blessed your life to be a godly submissive wife.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems that a lot of them, even other women are scared of other women, you know, and like well, they're only scared of women that are going to hold them accountable.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's the ones that that the problem is.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: See the Titus chapter two woman, yeah, that she is to teach the younger women to be submissive to their husbands, then the key reason for that is so that the word of God is not blasphemed, so it's not reviled, and serious that is.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And hit on that a little bit too, because I think um that's something that you know, um, even the word, which that leads into because white knights like a new kind of phrase, and then reviling is not a new phrase, it's actually been in there for a while, it's just been kind of lost, correct, sadly.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, if you want to like kind of expand on that a little bit, just the context of that.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: So Titus 2.5 is talking to older women, it says to train the uh two four says to train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And the word there for reviled is the word blasphemed.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it's in essence saying, I, the wife, know better than what God says, and I'm gonna do what I want to do rather than what God's order is.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: God's order is the wife is to submit to the husband.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: He's the head, she follows, just like Christ in the church.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: Christ is the head, we as the church, we follow Christ.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: So this is all that that's saying for the older women to be doing this.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean only older women do that, sure, but they should have that as part of their ministry.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: An older woman has walked with the Lord for a while, she should look for younger women to say, maybe I can help you with some of these things that you don't understand.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you haven't been taught this, maybe you grew up in an unbelieving home, maybe you grew up in a feminist home.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so she should be doing that.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And yet, pastors often will preach this from the pulpit.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Here's the other part that I explore in the book.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: They'll preach this in the pulpit, they'll speak very boldly and courageously and exposition of scripture, and and you go, Man, this is great.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then they get one-on-one with the husband and wife in the counseling office and they punt.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, because now you're face to face with someone.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little bit different, you know, like like you and I, right?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're we're we're four feet away from each other.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, right?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm talking right to you and I'm seeing your seeing your your response to me.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: And if you give me a frown, you know, like, I don't like this, I'm gonna, you know, boy, tendency is gonna be to back off.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: But from the pulpit, you know, I'm hundreds of feet away from you.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like I can say almost anything I want, they're gonna get mad, but so be it.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: They'll get over it.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: But in the counseling office, you get immediate, instant feedback.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: People like you, people hate you.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and and I've I've had that, I've had that happen with some women that's you know, whether it's face to face in my office or by Zoom, and some of them, I mean, you can just tell by their looks, you're like, ooh, wow.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: But on the other hand, here's the good news there's a lot of the women that I counsel I just counseled two of them yesterday that were very receptive that said, Praise God, man, I'd never heard this before.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, Oh, this is really helpful.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: We went through some passages of scripture and they're writing down notes, and one of them was weeping, you know, as I was telling her, Look, the gospel has the power to change you, the gospel has the power to help you, and so that you don't have to rage at your husband, so you don't have to feed on your husband physically.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: And she only saw it as basically two options either I fight him or I run away from him, fight or flight.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I go, No, there's another option.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: We call out to Christ and he'll work in your heart and teach you and humble you and sanctify you so that you don't have to keep falling into that sin.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a beautiful thing to see that happening.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: It is it is you know, obviously one of the most favorite things for me is to see a a a woman or a man repent right before you rise and you go, That's God working.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's not me, that's God working.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's like rich fruit.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think anyone in ministry that that's all they could hope for is, you know, and I'm sure there's some times, especially with with this type of ministry as well, that I'm sure there's times where it's been kind of bleak, you know, you're kind of like, it's like, is there any fruit, you know, to keep on going, you know?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems like God gives you just enough to like keep on going like each time, I'd imagine.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it's it's been like difficult.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, because you feel like you're beating your head against the wall.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh man, I just keep going, just keep going.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm trying to be faithful to what God says, and I I leave the results up to him.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes maybe I'm not handling it the best I could, but I'm I'm doing the best that I that I know.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: But currently, about one out of four of the counseling situations with the husband and wife together, the wife is repentant.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: She changes, and the marriage is saved, reconciled, and and things go beautifully.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I go, that's that's the goal.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: I want to save marriages.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not trying to tear them down.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm trying to rescue them.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm fighting not only against the reviling wife, what she's going, what she's doing, but I'm actually fighting the pastor that should be he should be in front of me and saying, Hey, you know, here's what we we need you to do this, yeah.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Rather than him fighting with me and saying, What are you doing to my people?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's I I'm not their shepherd, but you're not being a shepherd, you're being a wolf.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're destroying not only the woman, not only the not only the husband, but here's the other part that we don't talk about the children.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: The parental alienation.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's the part that is the most painful part when the when the angry, bitter wife convinces the children to carry her bitterness towards their father, towards her husband, and they hate him, despise him, they cut off contact with him, they want nothing to do with him.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: And these children, they parrot the words that the mother says.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Just kind of like repeat it.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Just repeat it.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I've I've counseled some of these kids, and I'm like, this, you know, whether it's a teenager or or even younger, and I said, This this sounds like what your mother would say.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Is this really what you believe?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and it is, it's it's right from mom's mouth.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because kids love their moms and they should love their parents.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that um with like the family court system?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think um there's obviously been a lot of change too with not only dating, the dating uh uh environment out there, family court system.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of these pastors, like it's it's not that uh they're entirely to blame, I guess, in the sense of like they probably got married in the 90s or maybe a little later.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's we've come a long way from you met someone at church or you met her at a dance, or you know, and it's just gotten like like because I know like to speak on behalf of like a lot of younger men, they they want to get married.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them do, they want to build a legacy in a home and a family.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of times the pastors always come from the approach like, well, they just want to sit in their basement and play video games and they don't want to be responsible and they don't want to man up.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: But from my perspective, I think a lot of men see the scope of the high percentages of divorce, even in the church.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and they see a lot of their friends go through the family court system, go through the grinder, lose their kids.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I just actually interviewed someone not that long ago that just shared his story on on the podcast.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and he sends me texts, uh, and I told him to do this.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: He sends me about one to two texts, probably at least a day, of just a story of some uh young man, just like how he lost his kids, right?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't do anything wrong, false allegations and stuff.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I think a lot of young men, they it's not necessarily they don't want to get married, they just they're avoiding divorce.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: They they see the destructions like it's like how are how is the church going to you know kind of steer that in an opposite direction if they don't obviously, and I think another thing, and I'm sorry, um the other thing too is a lot of uh men are becoming more conservative while a lot of younger men are becoming more liberal in their way of thinking.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that gap is just winding because a lot of men are not going to college as much as women are, so they're not being in a I would say indoctrinated in a liberal mindset depending on the college you go to.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And this uh this one uh study from Morgan Stanley said that by 2030, that 45% of women from the age 29 to 44 will be not married and childless.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's that's in that's in four years from now.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing they said on there as well was 63 percent of young men from 18 to 29 are not looking for relationships and they're not even date or they're not even dating.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just that's just crazy to me because like that's huge.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and I know that's a huge like weight to kind of throw at you, but what are some what are some things that you would say then to these young men that are like, hey, I want to avoid a divorce, I'd like to have a legacy.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: What do I do?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: I can't find someone, you know, or where do I look, I guess.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Or or also like one of the questions is like, what are some things to look for as red flags to kind of avoid this catastrophe, obviously?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of ground to cover.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there was a lot.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess the last one you can lead off on, you know, um, just as far as like young men that are trying to find a wife, what are some things to avoid that would help them like in the future, you know, to find a good wife?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's you're absolutely right, too.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I often say that that young men are not afraid of getting married, they're afraid of getting a divorce.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: They're afraid of building um everything in their life, besting and and having a good, high-paying job and being faithful in their home, and that it all get taken away by a corrupt court system.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And family law court is the one area where you can almost guarantee you're gonna get injustice if you're a man.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and I see it, I see it every day.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: So so there are there are multiple problems with this.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: There's the reviling wife, there's the white knights, there's the parental alienation, there's the court system, we've got a lot of things working against us.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: But we in the church have to get this clear and get this right.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: This is where it has to begin.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and if it can't begin there, it has to begin in the family.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: So so we have to build strong, God-centered, um hierarchical families where the man is leading with grace, with kindness, with love, and the wife is following him.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: So that's exactly what a young man should be looking for if he's not married.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of a wife would that look like?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: Would she be a boss babe?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Would she be someone that's you know, nasty and and and harsh?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Would she be someone that is willing to follow?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: Would she be someone that says, I've got to have my way, you do what I want, otherwise you're the bad man.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: You go, okay, sorry, you know, it's probably not gonna work out with us.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: So submission is one of the biggest issues.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and this is one of the areas where a lot of young women and even women my age say, I I'm never gonna submit to a man.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm never gonna let a man control me.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna never gonna let a man tell me what to do.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, they they f they frame it with all of this emotional freight.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, wait, the guy's not that's not his goal to tell you what to do.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: His goal is to lead.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: His goal is to be the ruler in his home, the authority in his home.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: And we say, Oh my ruler, authority, those are harsh words.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: No, they're not.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: They're biblical words, they're good words.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the word patriarchy is father rule.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's all it is.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: It the the father rules the home, he rules his uh his people, you know, in in his household.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it should not be something that we cringe at.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: So we need a lot of education in this area.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And some of these young women, as we've mentioned, some of them have just never been taught this.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Some of them have heard this and they've rebelled against it and said, I'm not doing that.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not signing up for that.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you're right, they stay single in their late twenties, in their thirties, and forties, and some of them regret that and they say, I don't have any children.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've got to get married now.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: I want children.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, meanwhile, the young guys have said, too late.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not I'm not willing to rescue you because you have lived a single life, young lady, for so long.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're so independent in your thinking, then I'm not sure that you'll ever be suitable to marry a man.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: I hope that's not the case.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's wise of men to be cautious, not to be a fright, not to be afraid, not to be frightened, not blackpilled, but to say we've got to be cautious and not just, well, date her, she goes to a good church, her father's a pastor, she must be okay.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: We can't assume that any longer.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: We simply cannot.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think my generation assumed that and to its own, you know, um pitfalls.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: We still love the boomers, though.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we still love the boomers.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: They're not all bad.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: They're not all bad, you know.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: They got some things right.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's always kind of like you know, like a a swear word from the younger generations like boomer.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, boomer.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's there's plenty of problems in the younger generations, too, right?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's like boomers or the of the end all.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: And and I've always tell people, you know what?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: Boomers had parents too.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: So they're so what about their parents?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Did they train them right or wrong?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is that why the boomers turned out badly?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, okay, you know, we can just keep going back and back.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: I know it is interesting that the greatest generation produced the boomers.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: So how are they greatest then?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I don't know.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like it's like maybe you could have, I don't know.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like um it's it's true though, it's and I think every generation does that.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: I uh you I started to feel like old when I start to say, like, well, these kids these days, I'm like, oh boy, it's already it's already happening in the world.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: When the kids call you sir, then you know you're old.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, that is for true.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I also heard too that like if you fall down and uh people like gasp, then you know you're old.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: If everyone laughs, then you're okay.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um some of the other questions like leading up to because like I've had uh guys ask me this question, and and to understand too that these questions are not because what we don't want to do as well is to encourage the default of like, well, there's an out, I'm gonna take divorce because I'm per uh allowed to.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think we've done that too with a lot of ladies.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: We've kind of we've given them such a long list of to pull from as um basically allowance is how they would see it, even if it's unbiblical, some of them.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but one of the questions, uh, some of these questions I wanted to ask is like, like, how does one biblically define like uh abandonment, you know, and on like on under what like circumstances scripturally is that allowable in terms of divorce?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes it's like, does that mean like your wife just leaves because she's upset for a couple months?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is because obviously you don't want to be manipulative in the sense of like a threatening way, just like a woman would be like, Well, I'm gonna divorce you if you don't do A, B, or C.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And because I know that um, you know, some guys that I've talked to when that has happened, a lot of times the pastors always encourage them to be on the side of like keep things going.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I've seen where it's actually been uh worse because sometimes they kidnap the kids and they'll just take the kids.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely, and then you wonder, like, okay, is that is that uh a change of perspective of the marriage?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because the covenants now where you she's not obviously protecting the marriage anymore, but you're still called to protect your kids from their well-being.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I uh in that situation with abandonment, like what would that look like as far as like biblically?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know a lot of people would have a lot of different answers to that, and I know that's kind of difficult to kind of throw that at you, but sure.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's it's got some complications to it, doesn't it?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because we're not talking about having a weekend spat and the wife says, I'm really mad at you and I'm I'm gonna go shopping, you know, for the rest of the day.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, it's not not grounds for divorce, obviously.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like, okay, she's she's mad, and maybe she shouldn't be mad, maybe she has reason for being mad, I don't know, but you know, these are not grounds for divorce.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: But there does come a point where you're trying to get help, you're trying to reconcile your marriage, and most of these guys, I mean, I would say, man, probably 95% of the guys that I counsel in this situation, they have tried everything to reconcile with their wives.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: And she will not humble herself, she will not back down, she just doubles down in her rage and her anger and her insistence on control.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: And the guy's like, What what else do I do?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: How do I you know how how do I rescue her?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: I love my wife, I love my kids, I don't want a divorce.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I've counseled very men at all that have told me, Yeah, give me justification to divorce my wife.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: I want to do that.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: I I mean I can't even think of one that I've counseled.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: I've counseled hundreds of women that have said that.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think I've got justification for divorce because he's abusive to me.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what do you mean, abusive?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, financially abusive.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: What does that mean?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he expects me to go by a budget.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's not abuse.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, he's emotionally abusive.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what do you mean by that?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he's he he keeps telling me things that I need to do, yeah, and I don't agree with him.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well that that's not emotional abuse.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yelling and screaming at you, well, no, but you know, so if you paint everything as abuse, then nothing is abuse.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just abusing the word abuse.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: Abusing abuse, yeah.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: And and and so, you know, we've got to stop giving this justification for an easy divorce, and especially towards women.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you look up the statistics about who initiates divorce, it's skyrocketing among women.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: College educated women, I think the numbers are like 80%.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's those are the ones that are initiating the divorce.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I go, Well, there's a bunch of smart women that must be married, but that's be pretty stupid if they're marrying the wrong guy like that.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're highly educated, you're marrying the wrong guy.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, probably something else going on, isn't there?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's uh you could also take the number, and like there's probably a percentage in there as well, like sure, like uh, you know, adultery or physical abuse, but I have a hard time believing it's like that entire number, you know, 70 to 82 percent, you know, which is like depends on which stat you look at.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I I just find that hard to believe.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like and and you know, I'm I I'm not one that that gives guys a pass, for instance, on pornography.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I've got a book right here on my on my desk about pornography.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: I've written, I've written a book about that.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um But this is obviously a struggle that many men have pornography, but it's not grounds for divorce.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: In most cases, it's not grounds for divorce.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: The man needs to learn and repent and say, This is this is cheating in my marriage, this is this is immorality, this is sin, but it's not typically grounds for divorce.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, there's extreme cases where it probably is, but the average guy, I don't think that's grounds for that.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: However, the man still needs to repent.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: We don't just let him go and say, Well, it's not that big a deal.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we still address the accountability of the man, the accountability of the woman.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: And to answer your other question about well, when is it abandonment?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, when is it abandonment?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: And see, we live in a very different society in in our current day that the woman is able to stay in a home even when she hates and despises her husband, even when she won't submit to her husband.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: She will not leave the house because she's getting everything basically for free from him.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: He's got a good job, he's paying for everything, getting her stuff she wants, he's taking her on vacations.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: She's not gonna leave the physical location of the house.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to look at abandonment as more than just physically moving out of the home.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: I see.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of women are are willing to stay in the home and just continue to revile and and be hostile towards their husbands.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: So when 1 Corinthians 7 15 says, if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so, in such cases, the brother or sister is not enslaved, God has called you to peace.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think Paul is giving us some understanding about this, that there is abandonment, and he says, in such cases, I don't think it's just talking about immorality, I don't think it's just talking about she's physically leaving the home.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: There is a type of abandonment where a wife ceases to be a wife.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: She's married, but she's not really a wife.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: There's no physical intimacy, in other words, there's no sex in the marriage, there's no sense of submission in the marriage, there's no sense of listening to the husband, there's no sense of love towards the husband.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, before you know it, you go down the list, it's like, how exactly are we married, other than this piece of paper that we signed in in the courts?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Just roommates at that point.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're we're even worse than roommates.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like she hates Especially if you're not getting along.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're not getting along.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, wow.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we've got to rethink what we consider abandonment.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just physically leaving the home.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: The other example I use is in Jeremiah chapter three, where God divorces Israel.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: And we go, well, why did God divorce Israel?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, because she was um committing adultery with other gods, she was committing spiritual adultery, so not necessarily a physical form of adultery, but she had abandoned the God of Israel.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so God says, I'm divorcing you, I'm giving you a certificate of divorce.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Now, obviously, we know that God is not in sin when he's doing anything, let alone doing that.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to be careful in not making this a um a burden that we have to prove every every nuance of abandonment before it's a legitimate divorce.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously it's a very complex situation.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: Every situation has some different nuances to it.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't counsel people to get divorced unless there's something extremely serious going on that's that um you know, this marriage is not gonna go back.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: She's not repenting, she has no interest in it, she won't talk to me, she won't talk to him, she'll only talk to counselors that support her, and I go, Look, I'm trying to be hel helpful and fair with you.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not siding with your husband.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um the other thing that I always do is I ask when men contact me, I say, Let's have you and your wife meet with me right from the beginning, so that I'm not entertaining gossip from you, so that I'm not building a case against your wife before I even talk to her.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is the other thing that pastors and counselors get wrong.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: They do.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: They meet with the woman alone.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: She tells the pastor or the counselor all kinds of horrific things, and the husband is not there to verify and to say, Yeah, that's what happened.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because when the husband does find out, he goes, Where did you come up with these ideas?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't even remotely true.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: I never did any of these things.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of times the pastor or counselor will not even talk to the guy, he makes up his mind solely on the testimony of an emotionally unhinged and fragile woman, and he burns down the marriage.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: She burns it down, but then he gives her the match, he gives her the flame flower to say, go ahead, keep going.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: And he even supports her in the destruction of the marriage.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Again, thinking that he's doing the noble thing to save this poor woman in distress, all the while he's doing exactly the opposite.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I remember you mentioning I think it's in uh your book.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was the story of like how the guy even came home and she already had a the pastors help her have a new bank account.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I I read that and I just I literally had my head hit my desk.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, it's like you've got to be I could write that, I could write that story again.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: I keep hearing that same kind of story over and over again.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: The wife It's incredible, the husband is at work and the church gets a bunch of people together and they clean out the house, they clean out the bank accounts, they set her up in a new apartment, or maybe she'll even stay in the in the house with the husband and wife of a of an elder or the pastor, and and the poor husband comes home, he's like, Where's my where's my furniture?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: Where where's my wife?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: Where are my kids?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: What what happened?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: And nobody's even told him it's coming because I'm doing the air quotes, he's abusive.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, you know, and and it's like, what what are you talking about?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: I've never done, I've never laid a hand on my wife, I've never threatened my wife at all.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's not what she says.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: It just baffles me, though, that how how is that wisdom to never get both sides of the story?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just that to me is just crazy.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I mean, even if it was a very compelling story, or let's say the guy has a a grumpy looking face all the time.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, because we all kind of judge people.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: We see the picture on the news of like of a killer, like, yeah, he looks like one, you know, or or sometimes he doesn't, you know.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it just it's it's just crazy to me that these pastors will not talk to both sides.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and what would you advise too?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's another element too, because I hear all the time the phrase from a lot of these ladies, whenever there's anything posted on social media about submission, well, if he's worthy of submission, yeah, or if he leads me uh or he loves me as I wish to be loved, then I could only imagine, like, if you're in a guy's group and some if there ever was a guy that came to me and was like, you know, until my wife uh respects me and submit to me, I'm not providing anymore.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'd be not gonna do it.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be like, sorry, dude, you you have a responsibility.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I find it weird how we remove people from their responsibility just because the other spouse might not be pulling their weight or not doing it as we want.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's not about that.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: The the main reason why you're being obedient is because God says so.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily the result of how your spouse reacts.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like if you well, they're they're giving in 30%, so I'm gonna load down to 20, you know.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but yeah, you were gonna share something there.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like Yeah, no, about the uh the pastor that won't listen to both sides.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: Proverbs 18, verse 13.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: If one gives an answer before he hears, it's his folly and shame.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's what he's doing.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: He's not listening, he's not even inviting the other man to say, hey man, your wife said some terrible things about you, is Eddie.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't even do that.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then a few verses later in Proverbs 18, 17, the one who states his case right, uh the one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines him.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: Our court, our court of law operates this way.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know, it's due process.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's we give everyone the right to defend themselves, to face their accuser, except in the church with the white knight and the reviling wife.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: In that case, we just throw the Bible aside and say, irrelevant, doesn't matter.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: And like you said, how can this be?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: How have we become so blind?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I even say, how can pastors be so cowardly that they would not stand and say, Wife, before you say another word, we need to get your husband here.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: I know you're afraid.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: Are you in physical danger?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Is he beating you?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is he raping you?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: Is he molesting the children?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, no, he's not doing that.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, then we need to get him in here and talk to both of you at the same time.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's very simple.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what do you do?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because I think another thing that's uh like Christians, I think have this false idea that if I'm married, I shouldn't suffer, like in terms of having it be difficult.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when you sign up for marriage, it's like, well, that's what you are signing up for, the possibility.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean no one goes in the marriage, like, I hope this gets divorced in 10 years.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody does that, you know?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody, even the secular person doesn't do that, right?
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: But like, what would you advise to like because the Bible talks about us being an example to if we have an unbelieving spouse?
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like the a lot of these spouses you're talking about, they're married to Christians, like they're not even married to an unbeliever, and yet we're still called to even give an example of Christ to an unbeliever.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: If they don't want to leave, you stay married to that person.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the scripture teaches.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, what would you also kind of advise on that too?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if if the husband is an unbeliever or the wife, and like obviously they don't want to come to counseling, I know you advise on you know having it where you do them both.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever ran into that where you haven't been able to have both together?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: And how does what does that look like?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because that I think that'd be helpful for some other pastors if they're listening, like a method of how to handle that.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's actually very common that the wife will not come for counseling.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: Or she does a little bit of research on me and she says, Well, I'm not going to that guy.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I see the cover of his book or his podcast, no way I'm going to go to that guy.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, I'm not a mean guy, not an ang, I'm not an angry or intimidating guy, but I am very passionate about God's word and I will hold you accountable for it.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: But if the wife refuses to come, I always tell the man, I'll still meet with you alone if she refuses.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: But before we just assume that's gonna happen, here's what I suggest the man do.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Inform his wife that she needs to come for counseling.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is a headship decision the man is making.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: This is where he has to lead his wife and not just assume and not be afraid that she's gonna say no.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: He needs to assert we need help, our marriage is in trouble.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is the counselor we're going to see.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: Either David or the pastor, whoever whoever it is.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: The husband needs to make that decision, not the wife, because the wife will choose the wrong person for counseling.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: She'll choose someone that will just defend her, stick up for her, stay willfully blind in in their in her sin.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: But the husband needs to lead even in this simple arena where he has to fear God more than he fears his wife.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: And his wife is pretty scary about this time.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: She she's a force to be reckoned with, like, wow, she is a she is a ball of fire.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know what I don't know what's going to happen next.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: But sometimes when the man stands up to her that way and says, No, we need to do this, she'll at least come and meet with me one or two times.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: And now this is what's interesting, what's happened a number of times is the women that you know you can tell by their countenance, like, I don't want to be here meeting with David, but I'll do it because I'm I want to be the submissive wife.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: I I think I'm supposed to be, but I don't know how to do it, you know, I'll do it.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so they meet with me fewer few times, and and so many of them have said, you know, David, I I have to apologize to you.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Really?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't do anything to me.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: I had all these terrible impressions of what you were really like.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: I had all of these assumptions in my mind of what you were gonna do.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: You've been very kind, you've been very gentle, you've been very direct, but you're not out of line at all.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I I want to I want to listen, I want to learn.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I go, praise God, that's wonderful.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I always suggest.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: I say, you know, at least meet once or twice, see what, see what happens.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm not a mean ogre.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can you know my wife.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I got a wonderful wife, I'm happily married, and you know, she's not um My mom's a Italian too, by the way.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, good.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, she's gotta be good then.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: She's Italian, so yeah.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: So, but um, but yeah, you know, just because a guy is is is strong in God's word does not mean he's oppressive or a tyrant.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: He's just got strong convictions and he's gonna stand by them.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: That and in my mind, that's that's who I am.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: You still have to be humble and full of grace as you are leading, but you do have to lead.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: You can't keep abdicating to your wife and expect a God-glorifying marriage.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's just not gonna happen.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, this is one of the first tests for the man is to say, Am I willing to tell my wife kindly that we need to see this counselor?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: Please come with me, please meet with me.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: And if she resists, then tell her I'm gonna meet with David without you, then.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: So he's only gonna hear one side, and he himself has said he wants.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't want to just hear my side.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you're going to be at a disadvantage if you don't meet with David.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great way of wording that too, to encourage the situation because it's it's not it's not combative, it's not uh like a threatening way, it's more of like, hey, the it's an appeal.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like you have your side to share as well as mine.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not trying to stifle what you're feeling or what you're going through.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's like if you if you never share your side and it's just one, then how is that gonna help us to like move forward?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: And right.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: I know there was one thing in your book, uh, it was actually the abusive uh wife that uh really helped me because I had a um a good dear dear dear friend of me reach out because he was in a situation where his wife has left and uh she was wanting him to move out of the house because she needed space.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: And immediately I I I I remember your book, like that list of I think it's the near the last chapter of that book.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, I said I put it all in caps.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, do not get out of the house, do not leave the house.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then I gave like all these reasons, and then I put another text I sent, I said, P.S.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: Do not leave the house.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, and uh that really did help him because uh he was considering it, and I said, if you leave the house, you'll never come back.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do come back, it's not gonna be the same at all.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's exactly true.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and even to get a finer point on that, if the wife says, I don't want you sleeping in bed with me because I don't feel safe, you know, those are the magic words, I don't feel safe.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: This is what the reviling wife always says, even though there's no semblance of physical danger, she says, I don't feel safe, I don't want you sleeping in the bed.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: I tell the man, I say, sleep in your bed.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: Don't submit to that.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Tell her I'm sleeping in the bed.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: You are welcome to stay in the bed with me in our bedroom.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: If you feel uncomfortable, you're welcome to sleep on the couch or in the other spare room.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: But do not just the constant joke is always like, you know, like, oh, I'm on the couch tonight.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: Which oh, he's in the doghouse.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Which shows, yeah, it just shows the the cultural thing that has just been adopted is like we say it as a joke, like, oh, this is funny.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I've been trained that way shamefully myself, and and now it's like I hear the jokes, I'm like, uh, if I gotta hear that one more time, I'm just gonna like lose it.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like obviously the phrase always you hear is like happy wife, happy life.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: Happy life, yeah.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I would say it's godly spouse, happy house.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I like that, but uh you know, because like it's both, you know.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why why would you want just one person miserable and one person happy?
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand how that's happiness.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: That just sounds like a complete conflict of the people.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you should be happy by letting me do whatever I want.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's how I'm happy.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, with like uh uh but yes, that's that's equally important.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Do not even leave your bedroom, do not even leave your bed.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's make a stand and say, and you know, and again, I'm not saying be mean and cruel about it, just be strong and say, I understand you're afraid, but not leaving the bed or the bedroom because there's no reason for it.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: Your fear is not from God.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: This fear is from somewhere else, and we can figure out where it's from, but it's it's certainly not from God.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate you also because there's uh part of the one of the chapters in there too, how you talk about the spiritual aspect, like how the man obviously is caught off guard, right?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I appreciate that you mentioned that too, because um uh just like you said, how like the stories are the same, and it's like it's like well, the tactics are the same.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: They are like Satan knows what knows what works, it works over and over again.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: Why change the why change the plan?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: Why try and change the method?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's effective, it works, and you got you know, you got useful idiots that of pastors that just go along with it.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: So the Satan says, Hey, great, I even got them on my side.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so yeah, they're the spiritual warfare is intense.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: Any man going through this is going through intense spiritual warfare, and it's been going on a lot longer than he realizes.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't even know how long it's been happening.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: He just thinks, well, his wife is upset about something, it's time of month problems, it's you know, the the kids at school kind of problems, homeschooling, but um, it's not.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: This is spiritual warfare, and the spiritual warfare that I encounter in counseling this is unlike anything I've ever seen in my entire life.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: I go, wow, yeah, this is incredible.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: But then when I see someone broken and changed and tears as we're opening the word of God together, I go, Satan's being defeated.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: Here we go.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Lord.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: You're showing your dominion here.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: And there's nothing greater than that.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because we talked a lot about, like, you know, obviously men.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and one of my questions was like, What would you say to godly women of strong character who recognize this, these issues within the church?
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: How can they faithfully help address these problems in obviously a biblical manner too?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: We obviously don't want to create, like, you know, Christian boss babes either in that direction of us as far as becoming, oh, I'll just become a pastor.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's not the answer.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but what would your, yeah, what would your uh encouragement be to obviously not even just older women, but even younger women that see this and like, hey, I don't, I don't like this and I don't want to be that.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you think are something practical things that they could do, church, to help with that?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting how that works out.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: There's one couple that I've been counseling, and this was one of the wives that's really taken to the things I've been talking to her about, and she's really humbled herself.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: She says, I never taught, I was never taught this, I never understood this.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: She's an older woman, and and and their marriage has changed dramatically.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: So now they go into their church with a changed and transformed marriage, and now there's some young women that are coming up to her and say, Hey, can you mentor me?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: I see your marriage getting so much better with your I don't know what's going on, but I want some of that.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and the older woman is is talking to me and she says, I don't think I can do that.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: What do I do?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: What do I I said, just teach her the things that I've been teaching you?
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: Just go through the same things that we've discussed together and impress that on her, on the on these other younger women.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so she's doing that.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time, the man has some young men going to him and saying, You know, I see some really good qualities in you and I see the way you treat your wife.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: Can you help me?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: I go, wow.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: So there has to be a willingness on the part of the older brother or sister, and a willingness on the part of the younger one to say, can we do this?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: Can we disciple in the church?
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is what we should be doing.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is, you know, this is the low-hanging fruit.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: We should be always discipling and looking to disciple other people in the church.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so it takes humility to do that.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: Humility from the person doing the discipling to say, okay, this is going to take some time and some effort, but also some humility on the younger person or maybe the newly married person to say, I'm gonna have to ask this older saint to help me.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that's okay.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we're here for.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: We're the church, we're the body of Christ, we're the people of God.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: We should be doing that.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: That should not all be put on the pasture.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: And and when we do that, you're gonna you're gonna overburden the pastor.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, I can't do this all.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: So we need a healthy, vibrant, strong church that says we want to have this kind of one-on-one discipleship.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't have to be a big ladies' group or a big men's group, even though I think they can be really good, but it can be just one-on-one saying, hey, let's go out to lunch.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go and you know, let's just go chatting about something.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go to the shooting range together.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: Let's, you know, let's shoot some hoops together, whatever, whatever, whatever you want to do.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: And um uh we we need more of that getting off Facebook, getting off podcasts.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, getting off more podcasts, and you know, getting face to face with people and and you know it's true.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is what we need.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: We need that connection with people and say, I want to build a better relationship with you.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there's just been so much isolation, especially with like you know, screens.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it it's kind of sad in a way.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you look outside, you know, it's like you I I remember like you used to see kids riding their bikes, all this stuff.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's just nothing.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's just kind of like everyone kind of keeps themselves now.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, right.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, we're entertained in our own home now.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sure.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we don't need to go outside.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: Don't have to go to the movie theaters, don't have to do anything anymore.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: You got you know, I was growing up and I was growing up, there was no internet, there were no cell phones, like go outside.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta go outside and play.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, even though I was in a neighborhood with not a lot of kids, I still found them.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, it's like okay, yeah, and that's that's lost.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's lost on a generation now because we've got TV, we've got streaming, we've got Netflix, we've got YouTube, we got this, we've got that, and then we got cell phones and social media, and and again, I I was making a joke about podcasts, but let it be let it be a motivation for you to say, let me get involved with people's lives one-on-one in my church.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we're we're we're definitely not supposed to be just isolation and just have it where, you know, and I think there's just a I think we just um we fear the effort that comes with it.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, look, like you have to labor with people.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think it's very easy to like, well, someone else will deal with that person or someone else will be that person's friend.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I've had a question myself of this too.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, sometimes being a Christian is about inconvenience, yes, you know, and it's about like, you know, I don't really want to stay up until three and talk to this person.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really want to take this phone call, but you gotta think in the the long-term effects of like, well, like, but you know, and there's and there's boundaries too, you gotta recharge as well.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to get so burnt out that you take on everything, right?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but no, I think those are uh great uh uh ways, like because I know there there probably are women out there that would want to be able to help.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, even like I was like, you know, talking to like even my mom about this actually, like she's because she sees a lot of the same things, and I was like, as like it's like, well, mom, they kind of need your wisdom, they need your advice because who else if if they're they're not listening to me, so maybe they'll maybe they'll listen to you.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I think it was someone uh I think it was on some post that they said, like if women can't check other women, then who can?
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, and sadly that's kind of like where it's kind of like just been fumbled, right?
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, and even though I was pushing back that pastors should not be the only ones doing that, pastors should be doing that though.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: They should be willing to preach and counsel men and women and and do that in conjunction with the husband and and be bold, not be nasty, but be bold and say, This is what scripture says are you f afraid, pastor, to use the dreaded S word.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: You must submit to your husband.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh a lot of pastors uh they avoid using that word at at all.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I go, Well, we're supposed to submit to Christ, we're supposed to submit to the word of God, why would we be reluctant to say a wife should submit to her husband?
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: Why is why is that you know dangerous for a man to say?
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: And um because no one would ever say like uh like love is a dirty word.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: So why should the word submit be any different?
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right, you know.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I I think if any pastor listening to this, if you want to test the spiritual maturity of the ladies in your congregation, go hard on the word submission and look at their facial reactions right because I I'll be honest, I haven't met a lot of men that if I asked them, hey, what's your responsibility as a husband?
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of without fail quote Ephesians 5 almost word for word every time.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there isn't a lack of men that don't know what their responsibility is.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's that women just haven't heard it enough explain.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because think of it, though, why is there always caveats whenever they explain submission?
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: They always got to give these like examples, like now, ladies, this is what it doesn't mean.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean he can do this and it doesn't mean he can do that.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: But if he does this, then that's okay.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't it funny the scripture doesn't do give all those caveats?
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when all the passages in the word of God say women submit to your husbands, not one of them says, well, except in this situation.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't say that.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: Now and the only obvious one, and obviously there are times when you don't just submit to a a tyrant, sure, but even First Peter chapter three says, even if your husband disobeys the word, you're supposed to be submissive to him.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, so there's really no wiggle room, there's really no out in this, but we do.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: We often go to the exceptions, and the exceptions tend to be the rule.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_02: And if we ever make the exceptions the rule, we're we're off in the weeds.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're gonna go into dangerous territory because we're gonna miss the plot.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna miss what's it all about.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's about men leading, women following.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's as simple as that, really.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: And are these men all perfect leaders?
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: No, they're all flawed.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm flawed, you're flawed.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: And are these women always going to submit without fail?
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: Of course not.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they're going to resist, sometimes they're gonna say, I don't want to do that.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's another type of the rebellious wife, too, that we didn't really talk about.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's the wife that's not mean and nasty and screaming and yelling.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: She's just saying, no, not gonna do that.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_02: I won't, I won't go there, I won't do this, I won't quit my job.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_02: And she's not cruel and harsh about it, she's not elevated with her voice, but she's still rebellious, not only against your husband, but ultimately rebellious against God, saying, This is the authority God has given you to follow.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: You must follow.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: You don't get the option to say, I'm not gonna do that.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: So there's that type of a rebellious wife, too.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: The one that's actively nasty, but there's also the one that's passive and just resists and and and will not cooperate.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_02: She's uh she stonewalls, she she pushes back on anything the husband says.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: If the husband says, You know what, I don't want you to get a job, just stay home with the kids, and she says, No, I'm gonna get a job anyway.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_02: You go, Okay, that that's sinful rebellion.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: Or it goes on the other way.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's the wife that has a job and the husband says, You know what, I really want you to quit your job.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and she won't quit the job.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_02: Or she has the job and she says, I don't care what my husband says, I'm gonna retire from my job.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you go, wait, don't you even talk to your husband about this?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: Don't you have any input with you know, doesn't the husband have any input on this?
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a w a woman that's living an independent life.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: Very hard for the poor husband.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: Very difficult.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_02: How do I lead someone that will not follow me?
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_02: And yet the husband still has the responsibility to lead.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's incredibly difficult, if not impossible, for him to lead her.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like a double-edged sword, too, because we we constantly have heard many sermons about men need to man up, they need to be responsible, they need to do better.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I also find because I I did a another podcast where I went through each point of like a man's responsibilities, but I showed the example that the church gives and how even though they tell them that, they also sabotage them in a way because it's like saying, like, well, hey, you you have to lead, but you get all the responsibility of being a husband, but you have no authority.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: So even if you do start leading, but it's not in the way she wants, you still have to constantly turn the rudder to somehow appease her.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's not leadership then, is it?
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_02: It just also doesn't seem like it's abdication, and it's it's just terribly unfair, just for yeah, the basic thing.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_02: You're you got all the responsibility, but she's gonna tell you what to do.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, wait, that that doesn't sound right.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: Just in a logical sense, it doesn't sound right.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's also like in a way it kind of abused in the sense where because I the the phrase servant leader is used a lot, but how I think it comes across when people say that, it's like from from my perspective, it's like whatever she wants, that's what you do.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, it's like I think they're confusing the idea of like servanthood in the idea of like a slave, and I think there's a difference to that.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: How you treat your waitress or your waiter is very telling of a person, sure.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: And like what would you say that because that's and and then we'll kind of wrap up, but like that specifically with about the servant leader, yeah.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how is that uh is it just is that is that still biblical, but is it kind of misunderstood in an unbiblical way that can be detrimental to a marriage at times?
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: Personally, I think that's one of those terms we need to get rid of serv servant leadership because it it becomes a servant to anybody of what anybody wants you to do, whether it's whether it's the wife or the pastor saying, Well, you just need to be a servant leader, and that means you've got to do what I say to do.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's really evacuated any sense of authority and the sense of rule in that husband's life.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_02: Husbands should be serving their wives, like Christ served the church, of course.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: But the way it's twisted now, it becomes whatever she disagrees with, you have to follow her and let her have her way, otherwise she's gonna be mad and angry.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're a loving leader, you'll do what she wants.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_02: That that is abdication.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's not leadership.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: Now, on the other hand, the husband should be listening to his wife say, Okay, what do you think of this?
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_02: But then he makes the decision.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then he decides, says, Okay, even though you may disagree, I believe this is what God wants us to do.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: But he's not just a tyrant that says, I don't want anybody's other opinions.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_02: My opinion's the only one that counts.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's arrogance and pride.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_02: But what we're doing is we're inverting leadership by saying the servant leader.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not the way Christ was.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you just think about Christ.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_02: Did he just always do what the disciples wanted him to do?
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_02: Did Christ just always say, Well, what do you guys think?
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think we should go to Jerusalem.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, we're not going to Jerusalem, Jesus.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna get killed.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're gonna get killed there.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: What did Jesus say?
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_02: Get behind me, Satan.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he didn't just bow down to that.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: Was he a bad leader?
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: Was he not a servant?
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: Of course he was a servant, but he was a leader.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think putting those two terms together is is good or is hell.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because it kind of like cross-cancels each other in a way.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because like, um, because like you said too, I like like me, mine's uh acts of service, you know, that's a part of my love life.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like I really enjoy being able to do stuff for people.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um but at the same time, it's like it just seems one-sided though, too, because it's like marriage isn't about just the wife, right?
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of become that, you know, it's like the main focal point is always about obedience and having a kingdom mindset as a couple, you know, working together, her being a helper, you on mission, and her helping you in that mission, right?
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: But it's kind of become like, you know, the mission is like the wife, you know, rather than the kingdom, yeah.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of get lost in the in the mix there.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, the mission has to be the kingdom, and specifically in a home, the mission is what does the man believe God wants his home to do, and she has to join him in that mission, not the other way around.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: Which is complete opposite of how it is, right?
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it's a total opposite.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and just like you were talking about the um uh the message to men, the message to women, the typical Father's Day sermon, Ben, you're your dirt bags, you're terrible, you're looking at porn, you're in the basement playing video games, and you know, be tough, man up and all that.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then you hear the the Mother's Day sermon, and it's oh, you women are just sacrificing so much, you're wonderful, you love your kids, you're this, you're that, and and you go, This this is a fake distinction that's being made.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_02: Surely there are some men like that.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: Surely there are some women like that, but men are tired of getting beaten up, especially younger guys.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're tired of hearing that message over and over again.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, man, you you are going out, you're you're conquering the world, you've got a good job, you're a strong man, keep going.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_02: Don't crush your wife as you're doing that.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, love your wife, sacrifice for your wife, bless your wife, don't crush her, but lead.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_02: Keep doing that, men.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'd love to hear a Father's Day sermon like that.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_02: We have almost never hear those.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there there's just not like uh I posted that recently how like there's just not um a level of encouragement.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I I think it's there has to be a balance for sure.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: We obviously don't want to get so soft on men that they don't become strong as steel, right?
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_01: But for once in a while, I think there's just a little bit of ignorance of like what a lot of fathers go through and the struggle, like they have to hide a lot.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had this conversation with my fiance, she's like, like, well, why why don't you tell me what's going on?
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because she knew something was going wrong wrong, like with work.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, Well, let's just look at it this way if I was the captain of a ship and the storms are raging and And everyone's not sure what to do on this ship.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I start freaking out.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah like the rest of the crew.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is everyone gonna have faith that I know what I'm doing?
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna go down.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, oh.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: And ever since then, she's understood why I don't share certain things.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the idea of not wanting to uh be vulnerable or to share my heart, but it's the idea it's like I have to be stoic, I have to have the ability to be a pillar of strength for her because she's gonna be want to be led through emotions because that's how God has wired her, and that's good in certain aspects to help you to be mindful of things that you might not think of, and that's where the opposites help each other.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if that drives the whole thing, yeah, the ship's going down with it.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't be there like, yep, you're right, we're all gonna die.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_01: The ship's going down, the storm looks awful, the sails are ripped.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't know what to do.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we are doomed.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be in my cabin.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: Check out.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: Let me know when the life raps come out.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I tell you this.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, uh, this has just been amazing.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I thank you so much for your time.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I hope it's been enjoyable for you.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh definitely want to like, you know, promote your book, like White Knights and Reviling Wites by Pastor David D.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: Edgington.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you can get it on uh new Christendompress uh dot com is where you can check that out.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_02: And um just also tell us the only that's the only place you can get a only place, yeah.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, forget Amazon.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so no one cares about Amazon anymore.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: So they just yeah, global homo.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_01: So but uh um what uh but if you could tell us just some of your information of where people can contact you, um, if they not only like you know, uh obviously we talked about your book, and you also have other books too that are great as well.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like I've read the use of have to go on Amazon to get those other books.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so sorry you'll have to support that way.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_02: Or you can come to my office and I've got them here, but but yeah, but you know, as much as we're against Amazon, it's like how come they allowed my books to be published and Christian publishers did not.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that bizarre?
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's like pretty amazing, it's pretty bad.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_02: So the best way to get a hold of me is through my website, compassionatecounselors.com.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you can get access to all of the books, all the podcasts, you can email me there.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's probably the easiest way.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_02: I used to just give out my phone number, and now it's like, oh, I I can't do that anymore because I can't I know you used to do that getting too many calls.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_02: People always said, You're actually giving your phone number out.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Yeah, I want to help people.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_02: And if we go, I still want to help people, but I just get an avalanche.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so the best way is go through my website, contact me there, and I will get back with you eventually.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: And um, that's great.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be glad to help men and women.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I've got women to contact me too, which is which is wonderful.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm a reviling wife.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_02: Can you help me?
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_02: I go, praise God, you're halfway there already.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so good for you.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's that's that's that's awesome.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and most of my counseling is done remotely now, too.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: Probably 80 to 90 percent of my counseling is remote.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're not in the city that I'm in, uh you can you can find me uh remotely and and we can set that up.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_02: I do that all the time.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: And um and and I don't know if this is something because it's I just thought of this like are you also like if anyone's listening to this that they have you know a a a background where God has kind of like redeemed their relationship or they know what you're talking about.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_01: And let's say they are passengers or they're uh they're involved in counseling, or or are you looking at all?
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know you have a lot on your plate.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, are you looking for anyone currently that you know has those skill sets or that background?
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because obviously it takes someone special, and I think that's hard for people to kind of grasp too if you haven't gone through a relationship like this or a divorce or you know, the uh having your kids taken away, it's kind of hard to grasp.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if you are or not, but no, I am I am looking for someone to come alongside and and help me in this work, but the kind of the prerequisite is that they've had a reviling wife, yeah, that they've been through a white knight situation, yeah, so that they really get it and understand it.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_02: See, I've counseled so many of them, it's like I know what's gonna happen before they even open their mouth now.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_02: But the average person doesn't have that same experience.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, so I am looking for someone like that.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_02: And if if uh you think you qualify for that, hit me up.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_02: We'd love to love to talk with you.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: All right, well, we thank you again uh for your time, Pastor, and blessings on you and your ministry.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh again, uh, we thank you all that have tuned in uh to this episode.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: We hope it has been a blessing in your life.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Please reach out if you are in this current situation.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_01: We want to bless marriages and also protect marriages because Satan definitely is out to get it.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And with people like Pastor Edgington that are on the tip of the spear with us, we thank him for his efforts and what God is doing.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we pray that all of you will just be hopefully edified through this podcast, and hopefully, you can do more and go out there and be sure to be an example of Christ.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: God bless.