Latest / The Partial Historians / Episode 169 – The Gallic Sack of Rome – Part 4
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians. Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle's waged, and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr Rad Dr G 0:33 and I'm Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr Rad 0:57 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr rad, Dr G 1:05 and I am, Dr G, and I am excited. We are deep in the Gallic sack of Rome. Dr Rad 1:14 You know, I knew this was going to be a big event. Dr G, but even I had underestimated just how much detail we have to get through today. Dr G 1:22 There is so much. And this is episode four in this mini series, this limited series on the Partial Historians channel, Dr Rad 1:32 just when you thought the girls couldn't do any more to the Romans they do. So Dr, G, I feel it might be necessary to do a brief recap, because we've already covered multiple episodes, and I suspect this will actually not be our last on the Gallic sack of Rome. So let's revisit where the Romans are at right now. Dr G 1:53 It's tough times for the Romans. They have encountered the Gauls. Taking us right back to the beginning, they've offended the Gauls. The Gauls have marched on Rome. The Romans have hidden in their own city, being like they'll never fight us here, and the Gauls have found them there. And the Gauls are determinedly outside the walls of the city, and increasingly encroaching into the city space itself and pillaging the local area as well, because if there's anything that 70,000 Gauls need, it's food and supplies, and you can't just sit down and have a siege if you yourselves are going hungry. Dr Rad 2:33 No, and we've definitely seen some brutal deaths as the Gauls have undertaken this process of sacking Rome, most tragically, perhaps, the elderly senators. So it hasn't been great. Dr G 2:49 The Romans did decide at a certain point that they could only feed and look after so many Roman citizens on the Capitol, which is where they've retreated to the high point of the city. And in a very noble gesture, it seems that the eldest of the aristocracy have decided to give up their lives by sitting down in the lower parts of the city in their own homes and just waiting the Gauls arrival. And the Gauls do arrive, and it goes exactly as you might expect. Those old men aren't physically tough enough to resist the Gauls, and they do get killed. Dr Rad 3:25 I feel like the Brave Heart line kind of applies here. You may take our lives, but you'll never take our freedom. Dr G 3:33 They die as free men. They die as Romans. There's weird to us. I suppose it's a good thing, as much as we criticize the patricians constantly on this show, it might be one of our characteristics as a podcast. Dr Rad 3:46 That's one of our partialities. One might say, Dr G 3:49 potentially Yes, in this moment, the aristocracy do show themselves as people who are willing to put Rome before themselves in that very last moment. So I do give them kudos and respect for that, Dr Rad 4:06 I would, but I feel like this is the kind of story that the Romans like to tell about themselves to justify this elite nonsense. Dr G 4:15 Never believe anything that the elite Romans tell you. Dr Rad 4:19 Perhaps one of the big problems though, that the Romans are facing Dr G is that the hero of the day, Camillus, who has been such a character throughout the past episodes we've been doing, he has been exiled by the Roman people. And it seems like this, at least for Livy, is one of the reasons that the Romans are in such a pickle right now, Dr G 4:44 the best guy's been left out. Of course, we can't win Dr Rad 4:47 exactly if you missing one man, clearly, you cannot resist a Gallic invasion. Dr G 4:53 Yes, the morality of Livy never fails to inspire Dr Rad 4:58 but in our last. Episode, we have started to see the return of Camillus. He's got his warrior act on. Dr G He's making himself into a Marvel superhero, coming out of exile, starting to cause some headaches for the Gauls in the region, Dr G 5:19 and this is a very confusing part of the story, and one that historians have wrestled with, because within the context of the various narratives that we have about this Gallic sack, Camillus plays a bit part at best, and he is in it Dr Rad 5:40 A bit part? Camillus? Dr G 5:43 I know, I know he's got main character energy, but one of the variations on this narrative is that in vey the commander, there a guy called Quintus Caedicius is the one who puts forward the idea that they need Camillus to be able to get through this time of trouble, and that's before we even suppose for a moment that they and Rome know about their split forces, which it is not clear at all in other versions of the narrative, but we do have This account of Quintus Caedicius Raising the call for Camillus to be recalled and instated as dictator, and it is something that is apparently agreed to by the Roman Senate in Camillus absence. So the suggestion seems to be in some versions of the story that Camillus is still in exile and ultimately receives word that he has been appointed dictator without his knowledge, and now must do the great things that are required by a dictator. Now, on some level, you want to believe a story like that, because it sounds incredibly characteristic of the way the Romans want to believe that their republic worked. On the other hand, what we see Camillus doing is leaving Ardea raiding a Gaulish camp that is a foraging and pillaging camp, and then disappearing from the narrative again. Well, the whole Gallic sack actually happens. Dr Rad 7:13 Well, see, this is the chronology that Livy gives me, the sack of that Gallic camp that we dealt with last time that all happens before any talk of dictatoriness. So it seems like Camillus is more just concerned. You know, he's a concerned on looker. He's invested in Rome's fate. Dr G 7:34 He's like, I see trouble on the horizon. I see some Gauls in my local area. I should do something about that, because that's the Roman way, Dr Rad 7:41 exactly yes. And so that's kind of where we were up to, I think, in our last episode. And so I don't know about you, Dr G, but I am. I'm ready for some Gallic sacking. Ah, ah, Dr G 8:15 we're up to seeing one of the great parts of this story in this episode, because at the same sort of parallel timeline that we have Caedicius, sort of seeking out the dictatorship for Camillus, we also have another figure from Veii, a guy called Cominius Pontius, who seems to wander down to the city on the premise that they need to give Rome the information that there is a whole additional Roman force. So we have this moment where the Roman forces in Veii come to the understanding that maybe, just maybe the Romans don't know that there's a whole bunch of Romans also in Veii, and we saw the fear that had happened in the aftermath of the Battle of the Allia, where people were just running away, sort of in any direction that they could to get away from the Gauls. And we know that some of them end up back in Rome and some of them end up in Veii but they do not seem to be aware of how many have ended up where, Dr Rad 9:22 and that would, that would make sense, I think, in the panic of a truly horrible battle which really hasn't gone their way, that people would just scatter and you wouldn't know what had happened to various sides of the army. Dr G 9:36 Yeah, definitely. So you've got this situation where you're running for your life. You're not necessarily counting who's going in your direction and who's going in another direction. Dr Rad 9:44 Hey, Bill, Bill, are you heading to Rome or they? I'm kind of thinking they. That's kind of my vibe right now. Are you thinking Rome? Oh, oh, this is awkward. Dr G 9:54 I guess I'll catch up with you later. Yeah. Like, Dr Rad 9:57 we'll, you know, like, have some exile and. You with some sages, and then I'll catch you when I see you. Dr G 10:03 Send me a letter. Dear Bill, I'm still in Veii. Dr Rad 10:08 Dear Marsha, our love for each other will never die. We just have to endure this siege a little longer and this separation, my darling, please hang on. Ever Yours. Dr G 10:26 It's a tragic time, but they're not letter writing either. They literally don't know anybody's anywhere. So it seems, at some point into this whole process, and we're of the understanding that the siege of Rome is something like six to seven months worth of siege. At some point in this process, the Roman forces that have gathered in Veii are like, maybe we could help and maybe Dr Rad 10:52 second, wait a second, we're here, but nobody knows we're here. Oh my god, Dr G 11:02 we could be the secret backup force that breaks the siege. We could. Dr Rad 11:08 I'm sensing an opportunity, guys, Dr G 11:13 is it strategy or is it tactics? Nobody knows. So we have this moment they come to this realization. The Romans in Veii are like, Wait a minute. We could be we could help. And they decide to send a delegate, just one person, it would seem, maybe accompanied by a few others, but only one is named, Dr Rad 11:32 oh, he's definitely by himself in in my account. In fact, I particularly appreciated the detail that Livy gives me that he managed to get to Rome by floating down the Tiber on some cork. Dr G 11:48 Wow, that is not the story I've got. That's amazing look. Dr Rad 11:52 I'm all for sustainable materials, but that just seems flimsy to me. Dr G 11:56 I mean, the cork would float, but it would have to be a very large piece of cork to work to float a human Dr Rad 12:01 picturing him being like, you know, if everybody had an ocean, then everybody be surfing. Dr G 12:12 Just amazing. All right, so, listeners, picture in your mind Cominius Pontius floating on a piece of cork down the type Dr Rad 12:21 of river look. I should also add that in Livy's account, he is described as a sprightly young thing. So surfing would be in his wheelhouse. I have to assume, Dr G 12:32 yeah, look, I mean river surfing, it's a whole new wave, isn't it? So Cominius Pontius, he decides to be the one he's the delegate, or maybe he chooses off his own back. We're not sure, to take the happy news that there is an additional force really in vain that could surprise. We're all alive. We lived. And so he heads towards the Capitoline Hill. And in my account, which is maybe less exciting than Livy's. He is starting out alone, swimming the river by night, and doesn't seem to have a cork. Dr Rad 13:09 He's swimming okay. Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming. Dr G 13:14 Exactly he's gonna be fine. He reaches one of the cliffs that leads up to the Capitoline, and it is a very difficult climb, but it is night time, and he manages to get himself up this cliff, and he gets to the top, and everyone's like, what are you doing? He manages to convey the message to the Romans that have placed themselves on the Capitoline for defense, that there are troops at Fay and they are waiting and watching for an opportunity to attack the Gallic forces. The Romans on the Capitoline hill are like that is such good news. Thank you so much. But maybe you should go home. Don't stay here. This is not a great place to be. So he climbs back down the cliff in the middle of the night and swims back up the Tiber. Dr Rad 14:07 That is all very difficult in a time period without much street lighting. He's doing some Cliff climbing and swimming in the Tiber. Dr G 14:16 It's a one night journey to swim from day night only Dr Rad 14:21 one night only, really just there's so many songs that can be added to the story. Dr G 14:27 I'm glad you're here to lend the sense of drama that is appropriate to this moment. He goes out for one night, swims down the Tiber, climbs a cliff, leaves a message, climbs back down the cliff, swims back up the Tiber, which seems to be more difficult, I would assume, because the tire is working against you now. Yeah, heads back into Veii Dr Rad 14:48 well, see that's where the cork thing makes sense, coming down. But what about going back? Dr G 14:54 You get tired. You stop kicking your legs for a bit. You hold on to the cork board, and you lose all of your progress, but when you start again, you haven't sunk. Dr Rad 15:03 Livy gives me a few additional details in the lead up to this Dr G and look, I think this actually goes to show the awkwardness of this account, even though it's obviously such a notable event, perhaps because it's such an important event for the Romans, there are obviously going to be various things that people are trying to sandwich in for various reasons, and one of the things that they are trying to sandwich in is Camillus, because who doesn't love a Camillus sandwich? Oh, no. How does Camillus end up in this story? Well, okay, so I'm going to start at this moment of the sprightly young thing that is Pontius Cominus, and explain how this works with my Camillus narrative. Because you know that Livy in particular is very invested in Camillus story. Pontius caminus is not actually going to Rome in my account to tell the Romans who are besieged by the Gauls up there that we live. There are people in Veii. You might not have known this, but you have this secret surprise extra force that's reasonably sizable on your side. He's actually there to tell them that, hey, there's this collection of us at Veii, and we've decided that we need Camillus. That is His sole purpose to be like you guys need to summon Camillus, but we have to go about this the right way. And we knew back in Veii that the right way to handle this was to ask the Senate, because they're the only ones who can really initiate this whole process. And Livy's like, what men are the Romans. I mean, even in the darkest of times. They know that you have to follow the proper channels. You know there's a line of communication here that must be followed. Doesn't matter if you're under siege. Doesn't matter if there's a gigantic Gallic army that's just burnt down your city and murdered all the patricians. You still need to go to the appropriate people and get permission before you Dr G 17:01 do anything, we will always follow protocol, and Dr Rad 17:05 that is what he is there to do. So in Livy's account, it's not night time, as far as I can tell. He doesn't explicitly say that, but what he does is, when he arrives, he sneaks up a very steep part of the Capitoline, which the Gauls had thought, meh, we need to guard that. There is no way any Roman could possibly get up that way, and that's how he reaches the Capitol. It's not under the cover of night. It's just because it's a part that the Gauls had been like. I think we need to guard that interesting. Dr G 17:37 All right, so I mean the insertion of Camillus classic, I suppose, yeah. Dr Rad 17:43 And basically he then he gets the permission the magistrates hear him, and the Senate decide that the Curia Comitia, or the Comitia curiata, would indeed end Camillus exile. And they decide at this moment that he would be appointed dictator. And so Pontius Cominus, then has to get back to ve to tell them, right, we've got permission. Everything's happening in the proper way. The proper bodies have been performed. They're voting, they're talking, they're debating. And then they have to send messengers off to Camillus, who is still in exile in Ardea, to tell him to go to they as his first point of call to, obviously, meet the men there. And Livy even explicitly says that he likes to think that Camillus would never have left Ardea until it had all been confirmed that the proper law, etc, had been passed to, like, end his exile. Because, you know what Camillus is like. He's the straighty-180, keep it legit, man. You got to get the people's permission. You can't actually be a dictator. You know, take the auspices in the army until it's all very official. Put a ring on it, guys, Wow. Dr G 18:54 Just wow. I'm just going to put it out there. I don't think this narrative is very plausible. Dr Rad 19:02 Dr, G, I'm disappointed in your lack of imagination. Dr G 19:07 First of all, it's the people in Veii, the Romans in vain, that decide that they would like Camillus to be dictated. That does seem to be a consistent thread in most of the versions. Why would it matter for Camillus to then travel to Veii, because it's still the Roman Senate in Rome that is making the decision to place him in that position. So if he needs clarification from anybody, it's not the people in Veii who were like, we think this would be a great idea. What do you reckon Rome? Dr Rad 19:36 No, he's not going he's not going to Veii. For that, he's going to ve because those are the forces he's going to use to help them. Yeah, okay, summon there, because basically in my account. So this is where I'm going to backtrack a little bit. So I actually have a little bit of build up to this moment. Livy explicitly tells me that at they the Romans have spent some time recovering. You know, they've been going to the spa. They've got cucumbers on their eyes. They've got the. Their hair wrapped up in little towels. They've got the bathrobes on, and because they've had a little bit of downtime, they've been getting stronger and braver. They're feeling regenerated. They're ready. And they also have additional people constantly joining them. So obviously, with the sack of Rome, there are various Roman people who are just wandering aimlessly throughout the countryside being like, Oh my God, I don't have a city. I don't have a home anymore. And they've managed to find their way to ve because, as we've talked about, they actually isn't that far away from Rome. So they've been joining so they've got growing numbers there. Interestingly, Livy also tells me that there are volunteers from Latium who are joining the Roman forces at Veii, because they are after plunder. They smell a battle, and they're down for it. Now my commentator who I consult, and sadly, this might be one of the last episodes I actually have this commentator to refer to, points out, I think, quite rightly, that this is most likely actually supplies from the Latin treaty, who are turning up. They're not necessarily volunteers. It's just the Latins who are obliged to give Romans military service, probably even though the Romans are down in their luck, and this probably seems like a suicide mission, they are there. I also have a really interesting detail before all of this happens, that the Roman soldiers, at they had actually spotted some Etruscans trying to do a bit of raiding while the Romans were down in their luck. And because they were at they and I guess, apparently nobody knew that they were there, they're just sort of looking out, and they see the Etruscans, you know, being all predatory. And they're like, oh my god, we're in this situation, in this exiled city, because we tried to help you Etruscan people. And where has it got us sitting here in Veii watching you trying to take advantage of our situation? I mean, God, these people, these people. And this is where I first get the mention of the centurion Quintus Caedicius, seemingly the commander of they because he organizes an attack on these people. And it's after this attack, when they sort of dealt with these predatory Etruscans, that he's like, look, you know what? I think it's Camillus that we need really, because he's following, he's following the example that Camillus has set for him before, like attacking at night and that sort of thing. And so he sort of realizes that this is the moment where I think that we need Camillus. We need a hero. Dr G 22:37 Look, this is quite similar to the stuff that Diodorus Siculus tells us, but there are nuances of difference. So we don't have Quinctius quidictius, for instance, attached to this idea of leading forces against Etruscan opportunists. That doesn't seem to be a thing. The idea of the Etruscans taking the opportunity is definitely covered. So it seems that as the forces, the Roman forces in Veii are trying to look after the area that they're locally attached to, in this moment, they notice that there are raiding Etruscan forces, and they do disrupt a number of Etruscan camps and steal the booty from them. So classic raiding mentality going on, being like my shoes. Finally, they have returned to me. Dr Rad 23:27 You know what? My city may have been burnt to the ground, but thank god I've got my sandals. Dr G 23:32 Goodness me, I've been waiting years to get these sandals back from the Etruscans. And so they end up in possession of a whole bunch of additional arms, essentially, which allows them to then feel a sense of confidence, being like, Okay, we could raise an armed force of some substance in this moment, which could help break the siege of Rome. Dr Rad 23:55 Yes, and that's, that's exactly, I think, the point of that story in my account as well. It's about confidence. Dr G, the Romans need to believe in themselves. Again. They've suffered quite a blow. Dr G 24:06 Yeah, they do. And now they're holding a sword in their hand. They've got their sandals back on, and they're like, I can do it now. Dr Rad 24:12 I'm ready. I can. I can. I also have this really interesting little story. Dr G, which involves people who used to be called the fabulous fabii, but who I have now dubbed the foolish fabii, Dr G 24:26 probably a better classification for them, really, Dr Rad 24:29 yes, although this is not a moment of foolishness. And again, I feel like Livy's really trying to constantly build up throughout his narrative of the siege. This idea that look the Romans definitely screwed up in the lead up to this event, they ignored portents. They didn't look at the signs properly. You know, things were not as they should have been. But once the siege begins, all we seem to see is Romans behaving correctly. And there's this moment in the siege that Livy. Tells me about. So there's a lull. Nothing's really going on. The Gauls are kind of just hanging out watching being like, God so dull, just trying to make sure that the Romans really aren't escaping at this point. And they're obviously all up there, you know, Citadel, capital, whatever. But then suddenly, both the Romans and the Gauls are astounded to see a lone Roman leaving the area where the Romans have secured themselves. And wouldn't you know it, it's one of the fabii. Dr, G What? Yeah. Gaius Fabius Dorsuo, hmm. This is a Dr G 25:41 narrative which I have never come across in any other source, so I'm fascinated to hear how this goes. Dr Rad 25:46 Okay, so the family of the Fabii allegedly make an annual sacrifice on the quirinal hill. Okay, okay, I take it back. I do have a source on this. Okay, and it's this moment that Gaius Fabius Dorsuo is like, well, Siege or no siege, sacrifices must be held, so I'm just going to leave by myself in the midst of this siege, and he's all ready for the sacrifice. We can tell this because Livy tells me he's in the gabinian Cincture, which basically means that he's like, belted his toga so that His arms can be free. Because, as we've talked about before, the toga is an unwieldy garment not really made for doing anything but gesturing with one arm emphatically, Dr G 26:29 yeah, Heaven forfend, you have to grab a jar off a shelf with two hands, because that would be impossible in your toga, exactly. Dr Rad 26:34 And he's having to carry sacred vessels, so he needs his hands. Dr G 26:39 These are sacred vessels that have not been removed from Rome. I note, Dr Rad 26:43 well, exactly. I mean, these are presumably something to do with his family, I guess. Anyway, so he leaves the Capitol. He just walks straight through the pickets erected by the Gauls, and they obviously start hurling threats at him. He completely ignores them. He's in the zone. He cares not for these Gallic threats, he just goes straight to the Quirinal hill and starts carrying out the rights and then returns seemingly entirely confident that because he is doing the right thing, he would be unharmed. He would not let death scare him away from the proper worship of the gods the Gauls have their jaws on the floor. They are completely confounded, kind of impressed by the level of his religious dedication. And there is maybe a little insult here in Livy's account about the Gauls being like an overly superstitious people. I can't really figure out if it's meant to be a compliment that the girls were impressed by the Roman but I think it's probably more a bit of a backhander where he's like, you know, the girls, overly superstitious, foolish people, Dr G 27:54 fascinating, given that the whole story, and the premise of it is that the gods must be upheld at all times, and the Romans must do it in the face of All troubles. Yeah, that's Dr Rad 28:02 why I can't I couldn't quite figure it out like, I think it is meant to be a little bit of an insult, or at least, sort of playing on this idea that the goals were a very superstitious people, and so were likely to be impressed by religious dedication, which is perhaps why they didn't do anything to this guy. They just let him pass and that sort of thing. Now this is obviously a very curious story, and there are other explanations for what is going on here. There is a fragment from Cassius Hermina, and I think this will intrigue you, Dr G who says that Fabius was not actually carrying out some sort of family sacrifice, but was instead actually tending to the cult of Vesta. Dr G 28:46 Oh yes. Now this is where it ties in very nicely with a small fragment from Appian, because this is mentioned and the priest isn't given a designation as part of the Fabii. The name Dorso is part of it, but he is called Dorsonote Dr G 29:07 I think there are variations in the name, yeah. Dr G 29:09 And apparently he does go down from the Capitol because the annual sacrifice that is required of his priesthood is required at the Temple of Vesta. And he goes down into the city. He's carrying all the sacred utensils that he needs. He goes through the ranks of the Gauls, and they seem. It's described that the Gauls are either awed by his courage in going through with this act, or they have a high level of respect for the piety that he's demonstrating, which would suggest that the Gauls recognize what sacred dress and sacred utensils for the Romans even look like, which is myself, I think, a big assumption, and the fact that he looks venerable in his appearance, all of these things are enough for them to be like. Well, this. Is curious. Let's just watch and see what happens. And so he goes and he does the sacrifice in the Temple of Vesta and returns back up the hill. So be it. And that seems to be the end of the story. Why this story is told to us is less clear, Dr Rad 30:19 I think in Livy's account is definitely meant to be showing the piety of the Romans, given the fact that the Gallic sack of Rome seems to be a result of their lack of attention to things like omens importance and and that sort of thing. So I feel like that's what Livy is trying to build up here. And it is a bit of a weird story, because we don't necessarily have that much evidence to suggest that the fabii as a gens did have a very strong connection with the Quirinal there is some sort of connection, maybe, in the way that the family set out for the battle of chimera, where most of them are apparently slaughtered. But there's no archeological evidence to show that any of the fabii ever lived in this location. We don't really have any other mention of this sacrifice, as far as I'm aware. So it is a bit of an interesting one. Dr G 31:19 It is, and the quirinal is not where the Temple of Vesta is, either. So these are two different versions of a story, and it's hard to know what might be going on here. I do suspect that, given there are variations on their story, that there's something to it, that at some point, perhaps there was some sort of agreement made with the Gauls that it was important for this religious right to take place, and they'd only be sending one man down the hill, and would it be permitted, and some agreement had been reached which allowed it to take place. But aside from that, this doesn't seem to be the big ticket item that leads to the next thing that happens in this siege. Dr Rad 32:03 No, I feel like it's just part of the redemption story of Rome. But basically, once the chips are down, all of a sudden, the Romans remember how they should be conducting themselves and start, you know, polishing their shoes, making their beds. Dr G 32:19 I suspect that might present a kind of literary foil to what we've seen with camilius, journey of accidentally promising things that he couldn't keep to the gods whoops. And in this case, if there is a Fabian connection, the idea that they have acknowledged that there was wrongdoing on their part when they were in Clusium. And this is an attempt to write things and square things with the gods in this instance. Dr Rad 32:46 Well, yes, lest we forget, that one of the earliest analysts of Rome was from this family, yes. Dr G 32:53 And so this could be a redemptive arc as well, but for the Gauls and what is happening with this siege, it is really the situation with Pontius Cominius That seems to spur on the next act, because at least in the account of Diodorus, for all of the fact that he goes out under the cover of darkness to make contact with the Capitoline, the Gauls do see him. Interesting. Dr Rad 33:24 See in Livy's account, they see the footprints that he left behind, which is weird, because allegedly, they weren't watching this part of the cliff because they thought nobody could possibly climb it. And yet they notice his footprints. Dr G 33:37 I do like the we're not looking. We're not looking. Is that a shoe? What? Dr Rad 33:44 Nobody's been walking up this side of the cliff. We've all agreed it would be insane. Quick Get me my Sherlock Holmes outfit and my magnifying glass Dr G 33:51 exactly like, what is this? I've seen something suspicious in a spot I was never looking Dr Rad 33:59 Yeah, they even actually tested out themselves. They're like, Oh my god, maybe there is a pathway up here that we haven't noticed. We better try it out ourselves. And, oh my god, it does seem possible. Dr G 34:13 And this is, I think, leading into what I think is the best part of this whole story, yeah, is that the Gauls do then send a force up the Capitoline, up this notoriously difficult cliff that maybe they were watching or maybe they weren't watching. It's no longer clear. Dr Rad 34:30 I think it's probably like kind of near the most difficult part. I don't think they're necessarily going up exactly the same path that our sprightly youth took, but yeah, they certainly are looking at the Capitoline and being like, oh my god, I think there's a pathway that we hadn't detected. Dr G 34:47 But they do take this opportunity to sort of mirror what Cominius Pontius has done, which is, under the cover of darkness, send up some men to find a pathway, a secret way up the cliff, and be like, yes, well. Well, if one man can get up to the top without being spotted, dude who gets to the top, what if we send our men? Dr Rad 35:05 Yes, and I'm actually given a precise location. It's the cliff near the shrine of commentus. Now this is a reference to someone, I think, more commonly known as commenta, the mother of Evander. Evander is a character we have mentioned from time to time, because he's kind of a bit of a alternative character to Romulus, I guess, an important character to the mythical foundations of Rome. Dr G 35:33 Yeah, Evander comes through very strongly in Livy's writing as an alternative sort of founding figure, and perhaps this idea that it's near this place of carmenta will reveal some meaning over time as we get further into this story. Dr Rad 35:51 Well, yes, I mean, I presume that there apparently Evander landed at Rome on advice given by his mother, Carmentis, Carmenta. And I presume that the shrine, obviously there is there for there to honor her part in the whole story, and him being able to establish himself on the Palatine. So I wonder if maybe it is something about, something to do with, you know, like the foundations, the establishment of Rome, and, you know, like sort of connecting to those ideas, that Rome is going to survive and going to be re established, perhaps, but I might be reading too much into it. Dr G 36:27 I think it's useful to think of this as a foreshadowing, because definitely some of these ideas are going to return into our narrative as we get further into this story. But the Gauls do this great moment of like, well, we'll climb up this cliff. We'll get to the top in the middle of the night. Nobody will know, but unfortunately, and most unfortunately, they do escape the detection of the guards. Apparently, they have landed upon a relatively unfortified section of the top of the Capitol line where the guards, for whatever reason, are either not paying attention or haven't been looking there very closely, even though somebody of their own team just climbed up there the other day. Dr Rad 37:09 Well, look, I presume it's because, given the way that Livy's sort of painting this, we're well into the siege by this point. And we have talked about these moments where there's been a real lull, nothing much is going on, therefore Fabii, I are just wandering around the place, seemingly ignoring all the signs saying, Stop Danger, danger. So maybe it's just because, as would happen, I think with a siege, the really tense adrenaline kind of moments have passed, and maybe they're just, you know, getting used to life on rations, yeah, Dr G 37:41 and it's hard to pay attention all of the time for sure, particularly when nothing has happened for a while, and it seems that maybe nothing has happened for a while, but lo and behold, the sacred geese of Hera aren't having any of that. They're paying attention, and they might be the only ones on the Capitoline paying attention. The sacred geese are what raises the alarm, and it's the honking in the nighttime that really wakes everybody up and alerts them that the Gauls have climbed up the cliff face of the Capitoline Hill. And I love this moment. I think it's such a beautiful way of thinking about the way the gods can interfere with people's lives. And I do like that the geese get to have a starring role in this Dr Rad 38:32 Well, see, I'm very intrigued by all of this, so I'm not a religious expert, as you know, when it comes to ancient Rome, so I hadn't really ever thought about this story before, in terms of questioning exactly how the animals play a part. So this is actually part of one of my least favorite stories about Rome, because in my account, in Livy's account, it's the dogs that are supposed to wake everybody up if there are goals approaching. So presumably it's part of their contingent, even though they're so desperately short on food, they have dogs up there on the on the Capitoline, and the dogs don't wake up. They sleep through and it's the geese, as you say, that are sacred to Juno who, who wake everybody up. And the Romans, even though they were so desperately short on food, had not eaten animals like the geese because they were sacred. So again, their piety is kind of part of the story here. Unfortunately, the fact that the dogs didn't wake up and they were supposed to means that the Romans are going to crucify a dog every year. It's kind of like a remembrance and a punishment of this failure, which is absolutely my least favorite thing ever to have heard about the Romans. It's just that is horrifying. I understand how important this moment is to them. I understand it could have led to the total collapse of their civilization, but crucifixion is just the most horrific way to kill. Kill any living creature. And the idea of putting a dog that knows absolutely nothing about what is going on into that position, like, I just can't like the fact that when animals can't understand what is going on around them, you know, they don't understand war, they don't understand these, these sorts of things, crucifying them. You know, when they have absolutely no choice in it? It just, yeah, it's the same kind of thing. I don't understand about our world these days. I don't understand how people can be horrible to animals, particularly animals like dogs, who just want to love and serve human beings like they just have no malice towards anything. It just, I hate this story so, so much. Dr G 40:43 Yeah, I agree with you, and this is part of the account that doesn't come through in the source material that I've looked at. And so I have, I don't know, upwards of 15 sources for this Gallic sack, and not once has the story of the dog being mentioned. And I find that interesting as well, because I'm hearing it for the first time from Livy's account, and it's it is horrifying, and I think we need to take on board that this is also just one of many horrifying acts of sacrifice that the Romans engage in. And because animal sacrifice is clearly very much part of their culture, and this is a particularly cruel way to engage Dr Rad 41:28 in it true. I think it's the thing of, I don't like the idea of animal sacrifice, you know, I'm very much about just treating other living things with the dignity and respect that we would expect for ourselves. I don't believe there is a difference between humans and humans and animals, because humans are animals, but I think when it comes to animal sacrifice in Rome, it's my understanding. Correct me, if I'm wrong here, dr, G, that when you are sacrificing an animal, you actually don't want it to be panicked at the moment of death. It is meant to be a relatively calm procedure. So whilst it isn't my favorite thing, at least, I can kind of understand that the animal hopefully didn't really feel much fear. You know, I think it's actually probably certainly a kinder way to be killed than what millions of animals around the world endure at the hands of factory farming, where they're literally lined up like on a conveyor belt, and have to watch other animals be killed and smell the blood and smell the fear and the urine and the feces that probably goes along with that whole process. Like what we do to animals is definitely, I think, far worse because of the scale and the fact that we actually should know better by now, but at the same time, and so I guess that's why I can kind of overlook the animal sacrifice part of ancient Rome, but this particular thing I can't really overlook, and look, Livy, doesn't give me the full story right at this moment. It's actually putting together other sources that I've read that I understand the ongoing impact of this moment for dogs and geese. The other side of this story is that the geese are on it every year, so you do have that side of the story. But the interesting thing I did come across about the geese, and this is where they say my lack of religious knowledge sort of came into play, because I wouldn't really have actually questioned this. But apparently, geese are not really known to be sacred to Juno. They're not really depicted, generally on monuments connected to her. And so it's interesting that it is geese that are mentioned at this moment. And one of the sources that I read suggested that actually maybe there were birds on the Capitol, because we know that there was an auguraculum where birds would be watched for divine signs by just how they ate their food. You know, like, do they eat a lot? Do they eat greedily? Do they not eat a lot? And you would ascertain what the gods wanted from watching that. And we apparently don't really know exactly which birds might have been used. Of this, we know that later on, hens were used, but maybe not always hens. So maybe the geese were there because they were a part of that, Dr G 44:11 quite possibly. And yeah, you're quite right. I mean, if we're thinking about Juno's Greek counterpart, Hera, often associated iconographically with the peacock, and we seem to have a real lack of peacocks in this story. Dr Rad 44:26 It's a different bird altogether. Yeah, you wouldn't Dr G 44:29 make the mistake, I don't think. But anyway, the sacred geese very handy in this moment one because, as we all know, geese are great guard animals, and they raise the alarm. And it's at this moment that we get to have a new hero enter into our story, because once the geese are off and running, being like, Alert, alert, something's going wrong, flapping the wings, honking around Marcus Manlius or Maelius, he has variations on his name. He seems to be the first and the only named figure that rushes to the defense of the Capitoline hill in this moment. He's definitely the one who encourages others to take up their swords in this moment. And what he does is horrifying as well. He starts cutting off Gaulish hands. So as the hands of the Gauls reach over the top edge of the cliff to finally achieve the ascent that they've been working on all night, he starts cutting off hands. Oh, my Dr Rad 45:34 God, I don't have that detail at all in my story, even though he is the one who wakes everybody else up, gathers all the weapons and is like, come on, slapping people awake. Get your act together. We've got some stuff to do. When he spots a Gaul who had almost made his way to the Romans, he uses his shield to sort of push him and beat him back. And when this Gallic person then slips and falls, it creates this domino effect where all the goals are kind of knocked down, like, and the goals are like, Oh my God. And the goals are obviously taken by surprise that they have been spotted, even though, surely they also heard the geese, but apparently not. And so they kind of drop all their weapons, and they are just hanging on to rocks. Now this would be the moment where you'd think, okay, he could come in and slice off some hands. But all I am told is that he kills them all. So just as they're sort of dangling on the cliff face there, he kills them all, which is horrifying, but oh my god, the hand thing. Yikes. Dr G 46:34 Yeah. Apparently Diodorus tells us that he goes for the hands first and then pushes them back. And so some of them start tumbling off the cliff. And he keeps going with that, and he encourages others to keep going with that, because it seems to be working. He's like, go for the hands and then push him off. Dr Rad 46:50 I mean, look, logically, that makes sense. If they're scaling a cliff face in order to reach the Romans, it would absolutely make sense to be like stomping, stabbing, cutting their hands, yes. Dr G 47:01 And once you fall off a cliff face, like the Capitoline Hill is high enough that if you fall off the top of it down a cliff face, it's going to end badly for you. You're either going to be very severely injured with not much longer to go, or the fall will kill you. So this places the Romans in a position where they're feeling a little bit superior. They're like, we've knocked back this attack. And this is sort of opens the door for some negotiations to take place. Dr Rad 47:33 Okay, interesting. Before you get into the negotiations, I just have to add my favorite inconsequential detail about this whole story. So as you say, Manlius is attacking all these Gauls. The rest of the Romans join in. They're using their javelins, they're using stones, and all the Gauls are hurled to their death. And once all the Gauls have been killed, who've been trying to scale this cliff, the Romans are like, ooh, bit of adrenaline pumping through them, but it's all kind of dying down now that they can see that there are no more attackers. And the Romans turn to each other, and they're like, finally, we can get some decent sleep, and let's go back to bed. Amazing. I'm also told by Livy that at dawn, the Romans are woken up, you know, like the trumpet sounds, the soldiers are all called to assemble before the tribunes because it's time, Dr G to reward the good and the bad performances of the night. Manlius, of course, is the hero singled out for his bravery, and he is given gifts, not just from the tribunes, but all the soldiers had, somehow in the space of a night where they slaughtered some goals and got a decent amount of sleep, managed to get together, and they've each brought half a pound of spelt and a gill of wine to his house, which was handily enough on the Citadel, which is obviously meant to be a huge sacrifice, because the Romans don't have a ton of provisions at this moment in time, so he would presumably appreciate this more than anything else, but the bad performance is, Dr G, uh oh, what to do with not just the dogs but the men who were supposed to be on watch? I mean, guys, guys. Guys. How did you let this happen? This is kind of your one job. Dr G 49:25 You telling me you delegated to the geese. Dr Rad 49:30 So a tribune named Quintus Sulpicius said, I'm going to punish you all in the military fashion. Now I'm not really given any more details than that, but I presume that might mean something like decimation. Dr G 49:45 I didn't know they had decimation at this point in time, but it doesn't sound pleasant look. Dr Rad 49:49 I'm not sure exactly what that means. Is it? I mean, maybe it just means death, like in the military fashion, Dr G 49:54 it might be a whipping of some kind. It wouldn't surprise me if they're being scouged with. Odds, for instance, that might be a military punishment at this point, because we don't have a formalized military that's true. It does make it hard to know what the military punishment would be, because this is not something that has tended to come up so far. It might be too early for decimation, but it also Dr Rad 50:17 might not look decimation was just my guess as I was reading this because I was like, What does in the military fashion mean? I mean, look, I think we can safely say not pleasant, not something you want to happen to you. Dr G 50:28 Yeah, obviously, yeah, if you think about the military, what's something that you don't want to happen to you as a military person? Many things. Dr Rad 50:36 Yeah, exactly. But all the soldiers protest and say, no, no, no, that is, pardon the pun, but overkill. You don't need to go that far. And they basically decide that they're going to throw one guy under the bus completely. Wow, yeah, they're like, it's all his fault. All his fault. Don't worry, listeners, Livy assures me that he completely deserves it. It definitely was entirely this guy's fault, and so he is held off the top of a rock in punishment. Wow. Dr G 51:09 Throw him down on top of the dead Gauls. That's where he deserves to be. Look. Dr Rad 51:15 I presume that is what Livy means. But I must admit, there have been some accounts that I have read that also seem to suggest that maybe Livy is referring to being hurled off the Tarpeian rock, which does happen to people as punishment in ancient Rome. But Dr, G, you know the geography of Rome, and you, I don't think will believe this. Dr G 51:38 I find that unlikely. I mean, yes, we do have the Tarpeian rock. Is a classic rock to throw people off, but the Romans are in a siege situation, and they're confined to the Capitoline hill. So the idea that they would be able to get through the Gaulish forces all the way across to where the Tarpeian rock is and throw this guy off the specific rock that they like to throw people off, rather than the rock that they have that they're on top of right now, which they've been defending for their lives. Seems unlikely at best. Dr Rad 52:08 Well, I guess it would be very symbolic to hurl a Roman who you regard as having really broken his trust with the people to like, throw him down on top of the dead. Dr G 52:19 Gauls, yeah. Serves him right. Yeah, you're as good as the enemy to us, yeah. Well, yeah. Well, after the fall of the rock, yes. Dr Rad 52:29 So this whole section of the account wraps up for me with Livy noting, as one might expect, that the guards for the Romans and the Gauls are now on much higher alert after these nighttime shenanigans. Dr G 52:41 Well, well, well, maybe we do need to pay attention. Dr Rad 52:44 Yeah, and the Gauls have definitely picked up on the fact that there is, I think, some communication going on between they and Rome. They've picked up on that. They saw the cork, and they were like, hang on a second. There's only one reason for a piece of cork to be floating in the Tiber. And the Romans, of course, have almost just lost everything, so they're like, We need to, like, pick up our game, guys. We need to get the show on the road. Dr G 53:10 Yeah, look, I swear. Look, I've seen some cork, and I'm pretty sure it's from Veii. What, man, but we're besieging Rome. I know. Isn't that virtus? Dr Rad 53:23 In your account, it may be this that opens the negotiations, but in my account, we're all about to be in for famine and pestilence. Oh, goody, yes, yes, no one shall be spared. Dr G 53:41 Chapter Two, a siege is not a siege until you have famine and pestilence Dr Rad 53:45 indeed, and that Dr G is where I would like to lay my hat. Ooh, the suspense. I haven't been podcasting for 13 years without learning a trick or two about suspense. Dr G 54:00 Well, I guess that means it is time for the partial pick. Dr Rad 54:10 It is indeed, Dr G, can you please explain to our listeners what the partial pick is all about? Dr G 54:15 Well, Rome has their chance to win 50 gold eagles, 10 Eagles each across five categories. I would say that the Romans made up these categories, but they didn't. We did. We thought about them when we made them up, and maybe that will help. Dr Rad 54:31 So what is our first category? Dr, G, Dr G 54:33 our first category is military clout. Dr Rad 54:38 This is very tough because there has actually been a little bit of military success on the Roman side, in some ways, it just depends how you look at it. They have apparently dealt with some marauding Etruscans in the region of they and been victorious there, largely because they follow the Camillus blueprint and then. They have also managed to beat off an attempt by the goals to break the siege. Dr G 55:06 That's true, cutting off a few hands, pushing people back with shields. Yeah, yeah. I mean that in a siege, that's kind of as good as it gets, apart from busting out of the siege itself is resisting the attack on your location. So I guess maybe a five, Dr Rad 55:25 wow, a five. That is uncharacteristically generous. Dr G 55:29 Well, I'm thinking like, how hard is it to have a military clout moment when you're in Siege conditions? And I'd say it's probably pretty difficult, because one you've either got to summon up the courage to do an attack yourself. So leaving your defenses and going down and engaging directly, that would be more military clout, I would say, but to sort of take on the sort of the pillaging roaming camps of the Etruscans when you've got a split force, and also to defend yourself successfully, although, I mean, you did have to rely on the geese. Yeah? Dr Rad 56:06 Yeah. I was gonna say, I feel like I can't believe I'm saying this, me of all people, but I feel like five is too generous. Dr G 56:12 I feel like the geese deserve 10, yeah, but maybe the Romans deserve less than five, now that I'm thinking about it, yeah. Dr Rad 56:19 I kind of feel like maybe a three or four, because, like, it's something, but they are still kind of slowly starving to death on the capital, Dr G 56:29 okay. Well, if we're measuring it by that, it's a three, Dr Rad 56:34 all right, so three, it is, all right. Dr G 56:36 The second category is diplomacy, Dr Rad 56:39 hmm, well, I think we agreed that diplomacy has to be something in between Roman foreign powers, because whilst there is definitely some secret messaging going on between the Romans and their fellow Romans, I don't think that counts. Dr G 56:55 No, that is not diplomacy. That's a zero, yeah. Zero, okay. Dr Rad 57:00 Expansion, I feel like this is going to be a continual zero for some time. That's a no. Wirtus, huh? Well, I think Manlius definitely would meet some of the criteria for that with his actions in bravely waking everybody up and thrusting swords into their hands and then single handedly cutting off the hands, of course, until the Romans are awake enough to join him and help him. Dr G 57:32 Yes, that is that is definitely a classic military style weird to us. I would love to give Cominius Pontius some points for virtus, but I'm not sure that sneaking around in the middle of the night and not being seen and having a cork board as a bit of a floaty counts as weird to us. Dr Rad 57:49 Okay, well, what about in my account? Gaius Fabius Dorsuo, hmm. I mean, it's more piety, I suppose, than virtus. Dr G 57:57 But yeah, I don't think it counts because it sits in the wrong category. Dr Rad 58:02 He does have to walk through, apparently, an entire Gallic army to get to the criminal. Dr G 58:08 Yeah, it's awkward, but what you got to do, I suppose, is it weirdos. I don't think so. Okay, fair enough. So that leaves us with Manlius as our standout character. Dr Rad 58:17 And then it seems very appropriate that his name is Manlius when we're talking about when we're talking about weirdos. Dr G 58:18 But he's only capable of demonstrating that in the face of the geese. So it's not like he spotted the Gauls coming up the Dr Rad 58:32 cliff. Well, once he woke up, he spotted them. Dr G 58:36 I see it all now. Thanks, Juno. I don't know, maybe a four, what? Dr Rad 58:44 No, I'm sorry you were gonna give the Romans a five for military clout when all they'd really done is fend off an attack whilst they were under a very serious siege. And they also happened to spot some Etruscans like raiding when they were at Veii and under no real threat. Absolutely not. It has to be a five, Dr G 59:07 okay, all right, fine. I will accept five. Thank you. Our final rating is for the citizen score. Well, there aren't Dr Rad 59:19 really any citizens left it. They're all in Veii or somewhere in the countryside. Dr G 59:25 Yeah, it's not looking great or dead. So I guess it's a it's a zero. Dr Rad 59:31 I think it has to be a zero for now, hopefully things will start to turn around for the Romans soon. Dr G 59:36 Yeah, we haven't seen anything to suggest that the citizens are having a good time in any way. I mean, Dr Rad 59:41 look, the only consideration I will throw in here is that, I guess with Camillus technically being appointed dictator in this episode, I can't believe that hasn't come up in the partial pic, maybe there's some hope, because there are some Romans at Veii. They're probably having a good time. They're at the spa rejuvenating. Dr G 59:59 That's right, yeah, yeah. I can't forget those guys. Yeah. It's not clear to me that anybody's having a good time as a citizen. So and it's hard to when it's a siege, yeah, and your city is basically, yeah, you're either there on rations or you're out in the countryside hoping that somebody will take you in without killing you. You're very vulnerable. Dr Rad 1:00:20 Yeah, yeah. This is true, yeah. I mean, like the people at a might be okay, but they're still not at Rome. Dr G 1:00:27 This is true, and though, but though maybe they don't want to be foreshadowing, foreshadowing, foreshadowing, all Dr Rad 1:00:32 right, so it's probably zero, then, yeah, okay, well, Dr G, that means that I have only had to use my two hands to count again, because the Romans have finished with eight out of 50 golden eagles. Dr G 1:00:46 Wow, congratulations, Rome scraping in at the bottom of the barrel. Not a surprise, given they're in a siege. Dr Rad 1:00:53 I was gonna say that guy wasn't really expecting high scores throughout 390 BCE and I have not been disappointed. Dr G 1:01:00 Well, it has been an absolute pleasure to discuss Ancient Rome with you. Dr Rad, as always, Dr Rad 1:01:06 thank you. Dr G and I would like to finish up because we have talked a lot about animals during this episode, just reminding people, please be kind to your pets. They are part of your family. And also, if you feel like it, maybe donate to help some pet rescues. They're really under increasing pressure these days, particularly in Australia. Right now, as we're recording, it is kitten season, and they're being absolutely inundated. A lot of these people have full time jobs and help out with these sorts of rescue operations in their spare time, whilst they're juggling families and all the other responsibilities that we all have. And of course, there are also lots of working animals in the world that don't have great conditions to live in and maybe go a little bit more plant based in your diet, because Factory Farming isn't great either. The Romans may not have been fantastic when it came to animal welfare, but I'm not always sure that our society is much better. Dr G 1:02:02 Yeah, I would definitely advocate for including more plants in your diet where possible. That is, I'd say number one, the easiest way to support animals. And yeah, I think we both donate to Cat shelters and things like that. Dr Rad 1:02:16 So I definitely do quite a number of them. But yeah, I do sense the desperation for a lot of rescuers, and I really feel for them. So speaking about the crucifixion of dogs, just got me in mind that, yeah, if we all pitch together, hopefully we can stop these kind of places, to be honest, being necessary, because they're really only necessary when human beings are irresponsible, all right. Dr, G until next time, I'll catch you soon. Dr Rad 1:02:51 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The Partial Historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive. To find more from the Memory Collective, head to collective mem.com you can support us by buying us a coffee on Ko Fi. But you can also support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. Today, we would like to send a special shout out to Kent Johnson for not only supporting us on Kofi, but Patreon as well. However, if you aren't feeling particularly patrician these days, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review until next time we are yours in ancient Rome. Transcribed by https://otter.ai