Latest / The Scene Projects / Cameron McKay on PTSD, Recovery, and Shit Creek Survivor Podcast

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Cameron McKay on PTSD, Recovery, and Shit Creek Survivor Podcast · The Scene Projects

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  This program is part of the Scene Projects podcast network.
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  Scene Project features interviews with independent musicians, comedians, and artists
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  from across the Midwest.
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  Become part of our community and support local art wherever you are.
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  Welcome in to another exciting episode of the scene.
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  I'm your host Bubba Starts.
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  And with me today from the Up Shitts Creek podcast, Cameron McKay.
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  Cam, welcome to the show, brother.
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  Thank you.
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  I appreciate it.
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  Yes.
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  The Shick Creek Survivor Podcast.
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  Love it.
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  Yeah.
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  I'm sorry.
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  I couldn't even get it out because I I've lived most of my life along that creek.
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  Yep.
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  Well, off the top, man, I know you have an interesting backstory, so I'd like to give you
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  a chance to, to tell us a little bit about your story, and then we'll get into everything
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  you're doing with the podcast now.
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  Sounds good.
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  Your listeners might recall about ten years ago, two officers being shot in Ferguson,
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  Missouri.
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  I was one of those officers.
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  I actually got shot in the face.
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  I took a 40 full metal jacket to my right cheek, went through my head, hit me on the back
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  of the inside of the skull, and it dropped down into my neck where it came to rest of my
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  carotid artery and jugular.
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  What's crazy about that is I was home eight hours later with a bullet in my neck.
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  I was at Barnes.
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  I know you're in I think you're in Missouri.
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  Maybe in Missouri.
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  Anyways, I was at Barnes in St.
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  Louis, Missouri, and they asked if I wanted to go home.
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  I said, sure.
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  I was home eight hours later, but I didn't understand that following that physical injury,
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  there would be a lot of mental recovery.
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  I ended up being severely affected by PTSD.
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  And what I did to kinda pause that pain is I self medicated with alcohol, which made things
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  worse.
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  After about eight months, I was no longer with the department because I was unable to return.
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  That was kind of like a bummer.
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  But, anyways, you know, I was in a really, really bad place.
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  I felt isolated.
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  I felt alone.
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  I wasn't spiritually connected in any way.
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  I was hollow, and I just wanted it to be over.
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  And on the year anniversary of the shooting, my wife actually found me in bed having a seizure,
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  which I had never had before.
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  She said, you're going to the hospital.
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  I said, the heck I am.
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  I was ready to go.
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  And, eventually, a police officer ended up asking me a question.
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  Does your wife deserve to be this scared?
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  And I said no.
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  He goes, will you please go out to the ambulance and just get your blood pressure
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  taken?
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  So I'm having seizures on the way out to the ambulance.
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  My blood pressure ends up being, like, two thirty over thirty.
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  They they think I'm about to have a stroke.
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  And, you know, they get me to the hospital.
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  I was not a pleasant, patient, if you will.
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  And they were gonna sedate me, but the doctor was like, you gotta get a CAT scan of his head,
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  figure out what's going on.
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  And they saw that I actually had PRESS syndrome.
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  And the PRESS syndrome is when the cranium inside your brain is so high, it starts
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  squeezing your brain causing the seizures.
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  And so they kind of put me, made me comfortable, and they were working on that.
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  But then I went into alcohol withdrawal that that lasted I'm not sure how long, but it's I'm
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  grateful I was in the hospital as it was happening.
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  I don't remember it, so that's a good thing.
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  But when that happened, I must have aspirated or something like that.
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  And I ended up having pneumonia in one lung, which turned into double pneumonia.
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  I had a right lung collapse, and I ended up being in a coma for about five weeks.
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  And, I was strapped down to the bed, all that kind of crazy stuff.
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  But somewhere in there, I actually had a near death experience.
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  And I know that's true because all the pain mentally, physically, and spiritually, it
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  suddenly went away, and I was standing in a light and feeling an immense love that I'd
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  never felt before.
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  So bright in front of me, I couldn't even look into it.
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  I could only see bricks of a golden road in front of me.
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  And I realized I was holding someone's hand.
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  I look over.
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  It was my grandma who had passed away who's very dear to me and loved me very much.
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  And, I I looked at her.
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  I looked ahead of me again.
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  I looked to the left.
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  It was gray.
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  I looked behind me.
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  It was pitch black, but there was people floating in the darkness, and they looked like
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  they were in pain.
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  And I looked at back at my grandma without without moving my lips.
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  I said, how is it they're so close to where pain doesn't exist?
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  And we're right here.
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  And that's right when I woke up to my wife, slapping me in the face, pulling me out of a
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  coma.
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  Because if you go past five weeks, you don't have a lot your chances of returning go
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  dramatically down because your brain starts to figure out, oh, I don't have to breathe.
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  I've got oxygen being forced to me.
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  So, she pulled me out of that against doctor's wishes because they didn't think I'd make it,
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  but thank goodness I'm not plugged into a wall right now.
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  And, she taught me how to walk.
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  You know?
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  And one thing that happened, and it it's a bummer, and I woke up, and, I was actually
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  upset that I woke up, because all the pain came back and the situation came back and the
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  struggles came back and all that kind of good stuff.
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  But, you know, about three months later, again, I don't remember the, the withdrawal, but,
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  three months later, I decided I was gonna drink because I was a grown man, and that got out of
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  control pretty quick.
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  I ended up having to go to my first AA meeting by the grace of God.
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  And I was exposed to a environment and a program where people would speak about I would
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  have considered at that time embarrassing situations, shameful situations.
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  Why would you share those stories with people?
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  But over time, I started realizing, wow.
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  There's power to this because I can see myself in some of these stories, and I see that
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  everyone else is doing that in this program.
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  So me and my former patrol partner, we decided after a long period of recovery, it had been
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  about eight years.
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  I came to him with the idea of, like, let's do a podcast, which will kind of be like an AA
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  meeting or even, like, we're in the car.
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  We're just talking because we would have twelve hour shifts and eventually start talking about
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  real stuff, and it helps.
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  And, so we decided, how about we just speak our truths, the good, the bad, the ugly, the funny,
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  the stupid, all that kind of stuff, just like in an AA meeting.
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  And just speak that truth out there so someone else who's struggling can use that information
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  or whatever it may be, so that they can move forward and possibly help someone else move
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  forward.
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  So we like the idea of Shit Creek survivors because I believe that we've all found
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  ourselves up Shit Creek without a paddle.
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  And what we'd like to focus on is, yes, the real stories of being stuck up Shit Creek and
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  how sad that gets and hitting rock bottom and whatever it may be.
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  But more importantly, we talk about the paddles or the tools that helped you or that individual
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  get out of their own shit creek.
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  That way other people can pick up those paddles and move forward.
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  And then by doing that, we're providing hope for individuals who may not be ready to go into
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  or may not be ready to speak to somebody, whether it be family, an individual, a friend,
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  a counselor, a pastor, whatever it may be, and they're trying to sort it out on their own.
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  And it's a really dangerous situation where you've got some trauma going on in your head
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  and you're trying to handle it alone.
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  We do need help.
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  We are communal creatures.
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  I know this.
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  I self isolated.
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  I was hiding in a basement, a gun in one hand, a bottle in the other.
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  I was trying to figure out my own, and it did not work.
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  And I encourage anyone out there, if you're struggling with anything, take a chance on
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  trying to pick up a tool or a paddle that you don't know about.
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  Even if it's to pick it up and just discredit it.
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  Be like, yeah.
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  No.
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  No.
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  See, I told you this doesn't work.
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  At least you're searching.
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  At least you're seeking.
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  And when you finally get those moments, you'll feel that power, and eventually, you will be
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  able to turn around and help somebody as well.
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  Love everything I heard there, Cam.
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  I say it on the podcast all the time that this is how god is healing our world.
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  It's how we're healing one another.
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  It's how we're healing ourselves is by coming on these podcasts and just having these
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  conversations.
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  I I I never think of this as a show.
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  Right?
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  It's just a conversation between two friends.
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  I I tell a lot of guests who are maybe a little bit nervous about it, that, nobody's listening.
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  Right?
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  It's just me and you here.
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  We're having a conversation.
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  We're getting to know each other.
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  And sharing my shit is how I began to really start to heal and letting go of a lot of anger
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  that wasn't serving me and can speak to the self medication and poor decisions.
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  I'm sorry you went through a lot of the things that you had to go through, but I'm glad that
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  you came out the other side of it, not just alive, but inspired to help others.
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  I think that's so important for many of us to realize that once you have the paddle, it is
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  not it is not merely for yourself.
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  It's to do exactly what you're doing with your podcast, and that is to show that paddle to as
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  many people as you can and introduce them to, maybe another way of coping and dealing with
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  it.
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  And, yeah, I I commend you for everything that you've been through and everything that you're
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  doing now to help others avoid some of the same fates that you put yourself into.
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  Yeah.
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  And I I noticed the, the sign you have behind you about veteran suicide.
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  Right?
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  So I think the last time I looked at the numbers, we're losing 22 veterans a day, and
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  we're losing eight first responders.
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  So that means every day, we're losing thirty individuals to suicide.
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  And these are individuals who stepped to the line when they were called upon.
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  These are not people who usually take the easy way out.
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  These are not people who give up.
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  These are people who put themselves into situations and been harmed through it.
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  And we, as former police officers, veterans, Dennis, my cohost, is a veteran, we aren't
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  encouraged to talk about this stuff.
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  We're basically encouraged to pack it up in a bag or ball it up into a ball and stick it way
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  down.
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  Right?
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  What I found out is that trauma, whenever you had it in life, it actually couples with that
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  trauma.
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  It kinda tangles like a ball of yarn.
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  So I was showing up to my therapy sessions working on getting over being shot, and it just
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  wasn't moving.
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  I couldn't get over it.
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  And I was at the end of my rope, and I was sober at this point.
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  And I came into her one day because, again, I was really at the end of my rope.
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  And I said, hey.
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  Something happened to me when I was five years old, which involved an adult when that adult
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  taught us this adult game.
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  Afterwards, we were told that it was shameful.
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  Our parents wouldn't love us and all these kinds of stuff.
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  And as a five year old, I saved that memory.
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  I kept it to myself.
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  I kinda believed it, and I figured in a way I'm gonna be good for the rest of my life, and I'm
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  gonna outwork this trauma.
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  But I it wasn't a conscious thing.
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  It was almost like a subconscious thing.
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  So suddenly, after I got shot, I'm not just dealing with the trauma of being shot.
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  I'm also having these other traumas start to pop up.
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  You know what I mean?
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  These things that I hadn't fully processed.
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  So there's the thing when I was a little kid, but there's also things like calls you go on.
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  Like, when you show up on a call and a guy has committed suicide by putting his head on the
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  railroad tracks in the snow.
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  And you show up and you have to handle that.
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  There's brains everywhere.
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  You're doing your thing.
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  And in order to get through that, you have to, in a way, sort of protect yourself.
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  You almost keep a barrier between you and what's going on as best you can.
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  But when that guy's wife walks down the tracks and is walking towards the scene and she's
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  pregnant and holding, a two year old's hand and she's asking, what do I do now?
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  You are more than a police officer.
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  You are more than a first responder.
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  You are more than an active duty member of the service because now you're actually guiding
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  this person.
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  You are taking accountability and helping them move forward with their life, however that may
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  be.
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  And when you do that, whether you've noticed it because we usually only do that for family and,
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  like, close friends.
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  When you do that, it does slice off a little bit of you.
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  And you do go home thinking about that because we're encouraged after that call to code it.
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  It's over.
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  Move on to the next, right, without processing or really handling what's going on.
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  So there's a lot of this going on, and these guys aren't guys and girls aren't being
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  encouraged out there on the frontline in first responder world, especially police world, to
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  talk about these things.
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  Like, with their it's it's almost pushed against in a way that like, if I come to you
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  and you're my commanding officer and I say, I'm struggling with a call.
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  Okay?
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  That can create a situation for the department.
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  So the department's like, oh, we now have a piece the way they see it is we now have a
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  piece of equipment that may not be operating properly.
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  So what do we do?
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  It's not that they seek help for that person.
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  What they do is they send them to a counselor who's a mandated reporter.
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  A mandated reporter reports back to your department if you are able to work or not.
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  So are you willing to give up your job for the thing you wanna talk about?
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  Most likely not.
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  You got a family on your back.
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  You gotta do what you gotta do.
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  You know you know you gotta work, all this kinds of stuff.
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  So you try to handle it on your own.
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  We're notorious in this in this world to handle it with alcohol, to handle it with other kinds
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  of drugs, you know, and it's just not the right path.
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  And there's another way, and we can do it.
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  It's just gonna take a lot of work and a lot of advocating and a lot of what you're doing here,
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  you know, representing it instead of it being in the main news because they're not encouraged
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  to cover any of this kinds of stuff, like, really talking to people and letting them know
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  that it's happening in their own neighborhood.
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  You know?
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  It's there's people struggling all around us.
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  And somewhere, I think we are fed the lie that life's supposed to be perfect.
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  And if it's not perfect, something's wrong.
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  And I got caught in that for a long time because I was trying to, after the injury,
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  return to who I was.
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  That was like paddling upstream.
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  It's just not gonna happen.
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  I've changed.
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  I have to accept the change, and that change can be for the good.
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  And so if you take something that has almost destroyed you and you say, you know what?
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  I'm gonna turn this into something positive not only for me but for other people who come
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  behind me.
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  It's like scattering seeds, you know, and just hoping just, like, trees grow in places that
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  you even never even knew they would, whose shade you'll never ever get to enjoy.
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  But I learned when I crossed over now that there is something on the other side, I'm gonna
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  cross over the next time with my heart full.
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  I am going to lean into it.
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  I am going to choose the path, the right path, which is the hard path, which is not the path
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  that most people are on right now.
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  So, anyways, I'll get off my soapbox.
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  No.
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  You we need to build that soapbox as high as we can.
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  What an impossible situation that we put these first responders and our military in.
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  There's things that you've seen that you'll never unsee and that you carry with you and
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  that have changed you.
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  And to ask you to compartmentalize that, one, to do it in the moment to finish the job is one
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  thing.
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  But to ask you to completely forget that for a lifetime or for the length of your career and
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  to not expect it to come back up in the worst of times for threat of losing your livelihood
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  is absolutely disgusting to me, and it speaks to problems that are endemic in the systems
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  that are in place.
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  And and I hope that through work that you're doing, not just on the podcast, but I would
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  assume inside your community of first responders as well, that we find ways in this
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  generation to fix it because it's not fair to these human beings that are putting their lives
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  on the line to then have their livelihoods put on the line when they have dealt with a
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  situation that is going to change you.
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  And the example that you gave is obviously the most extreme of those, but you touched on not
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  just you.
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  Right?
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  Not just you having to deal that, but now this young mother and this young family that you
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  now, how would you not feel responsible for that and having to, you know, do things that
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  you're not necessarily prepared for?
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  And there's no amount of training that you would ever receive that's going to prepare you
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  for those moments.
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  And, to be to ask someone to forget about it and move on is is childish.
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  Yeah.
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  And and If you if you ever notice if you look at a police department, and I didn't realize
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  this, until I was already in law enforcement, but if you look around at a police department,
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  the majority of the officers are relatively young.
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  So is that maybe an indication that at some point, a lot of people part ways with law
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  enforcement before they get old because they see that it's not actually a long term thing.
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  They you just don't see that many old cops unless you're, like, at a small town something
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  like that.
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  You don't see old cops running and gunning downtown and, you know, all that kind of stuff.
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  It's it's it's an interesting thing to ponder if you look at a police department.
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  You're like, They are all young.
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  So what happens to all of them?
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  You know?
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  And that's yeah.
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  Still trying to figure
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  out way or another.
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  I know some departments have policies, which I hope that they have very good, retirement
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  policies and plans for these people, in line.
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  I know that certain departments and highway patrol and offices of those nature that they
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  won't accept people that are over the age of 35 or 40.
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  That that they they keep it young.
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  Because if you're going to work in this field for any amount of time, you know, if you have a
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  ten, fifteen year career as a law enforcement officer, no matter the size of your town I live
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  in a very small town, but, you know, you're going to see some shit.
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  Like, you're you're going to see things that you're never going to be able to forget.
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  And if you don't have tools or paddles, in which to deal with them or people to talk to
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  without the threat of losing your job because I feel that it's more it's more detrimental to
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  yourself and to society to ask you to bury that where it can come up in the worst of moments
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  than having the tools and the people that can help you to cope with that and and to move
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  forward, you know, and not to bottle it up and just move forward.
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  Right?
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  To be able to deal with it and to work through it to move forward in a healthy manner than, to
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  have it come up later in life.
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  Right?
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  Somebody living with PTSD that is charged with, you know, keeping their community safe but is
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  struggling with something that they're not talking about, and and I don't really have
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  examples to pull from, but that that PTSD may lead them to make a a rash decision or or to
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  not make a decision because of paralysis in the future sometime that puts other people's lives
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  at risk, not the least their own.
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  So Yeah.
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  Like I said, it's something that needs to be changed within the system itself and not
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  necessarily at the just the individual level.
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  We have individuals out here that need help, but we need to help them by building better
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  systems.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  And there have been some states who have made some pretty good progress.
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  I think Florida's done pretty well.
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  Georgia, where I where I reside, they do a pretty good job of taking care of their people,
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  but different states just do different things.
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  In Missouri, I didn't know this until I was in law enforcement, but you are not allowed to
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  join a union.
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  So there is no union kind of protection or anything like that.
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  They have a fraternity kind of deal of police where if you needed some legal counsel or
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  something like that, you can call them, but it isn't like a union.
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  You know what I mean?
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  It's not like a protective force that's monitoring that you're being taken care of the
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  proper way.
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  It's basically you against kind of, like, the department fighting for your rights and medical
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  treatment and all these kinds of stuff.
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  Like, after I got shot, they said, okay.
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  We'll give you eight therapy sessions.
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  I I think in that first year, because I fought for it, I was going to two a week.
• 21:36
  So I was I did at least a 100 sessions in that first year, and it almost wasn't enough to get
• 21:42
  me through.
• 21:43
  So eight sessions being like, yeah.
• 21:45
  We'll give you eight sessions isn't enough, especially with a man
• 21:49
  slap in the face.
• 21:50
  It's an absolute slap in the face when you just took a bullet to the face on top of it.
• 21:56
  It's disturbing that these departments behave in this manner, but and it's not necessarily
• 22:04
  individuals.
• 22:05
  Like I said, it comes down to systems and building better systems.
• 22:09
  And how do you do that if you don't share the stories of the human individuals that have
• 22:15
  lived these experiences?
• 22:16
  And that's why I really commend you for starting the podcast and continuing, to get on
• 22:22
  and talk about these things weekly and sharing them with the public because there's so many of
• 22:27
  us in the private sector that would never know what you've gone through.
• 22:32
  Now I've I I mean, I come from the other side of the fence.
• 22:36
  I I was, for all intents and purposes, a drug dealer.
• 22:39
  Right?
• 22:39
  I did two years in prison for selling marijuana.
• 22:42
  So I have seen and, you know, experienced and put myself in positions that probably gave me a
• 22:49
  fair amount of PTSD.
• 22:51
  Right?
• 22:51
  From the other side of the fence.
• 22:53
  Now I've never been shot at.
• 22:54
  I've been very fortunate that in those days, I never had a gun pulled on me, but I was
• 22:59
  probably very close more times than I knew.
• 23:02
  And dealing with things that, I I don't and that I don't wish upon anyone else in my time.
• 23:10
  Hell, Cam, I ran away to Mexico for a year and lived in Mexico on the run from those felonies
• 23:15
  as an illegal immigrant, out of the border.
• 23:19
  Right?
• 23:20
  And I didn't necessarily deal with that perfectly well, but even just putting my wife
• 23:26
  my wife at the time, now ex wife, and a child born down there, in those situations as well
• 23:32
  where we were never safe.
• 23:33
  And I think that because of the situation and some of the people we had around us, I maybe
• 23:39
  felt safer than we actually were.
• 23:42
  But, you know, I I operated with blinders on and because of things that I was burying.
• 23:49
  Right?
• 23:49
  And putting people in situations that didn't deserve to be there.
• 23:53
  So, I'm very happy that your wife slapped the shit out of you and woke you up and, brought
• 24:00
  you back.
• 24:00
  And, man, if that's not love, I don't know what is.
• 24:04
  I hope you two are still happily married after all that you've been through.
• 24:08
  And and what what a woman.
• 24:10
  I'd love to interview her sometime because her side of this story is just as important.
• 24:17
  What's funny is when I tell her that, I've, like, been like, maybe you should come on the
• 24:20
  podcast and talk about what it's like for a spouse, what it's like, you know, for someone
• 24:24
  on the outside watching someone who may not wanna help themselves and how painful that can
• 24:29
  be.
• 24:30
  And she just looks at me and she's like, why?
• 24:34
  It's what I'm supposed to do.
• 24:35
  It's such a it's like it's like awe inspiring.
• 24:39
  I'm like, because there's been so many times I've almost questioned her, like, why haven't
• 24:44
  you left?
• 24:45
  You know?
• 24:46
  And she just wouldn't give up on me.
• 24:49
  It was unbelievable.
• 24:51
  Now we're not perfect by any means, but we just stuck stuck together.
• 24:57
  And we ended up in Georgia because her office actually got shut up in Saint Louis.
• 25:03
  And she said, I can't lose my job.
• 25:04
  What do you got for me?
• 25:05
  And they said, well, we got a promotion for you in Atlanta, but you gotta be there in thirty
• 25:08
  days.
• 25:08
  We we figured God was doing for us what we couldn't do for ourselves.
• 25:11
  We sold our house.
• 25:13
  We we'd looked at one another and said, we can either go with this or we can fight it.
• 25:18
  If we fight it, we may not survive.
• 25:20
  So we just without even seeing an apartment, without even seeing the apartment, you know, we
• 25:25
  put the down payment on.
• 25:26
  I drove down to Atlanta in one day and back in one in that same day just to give them the
• 25:31
  deposit for the key without seeing the place.
• 25:33
  And, it's been amazing.
• 25:36
  It's been absolutely amazing.
• 25:38
  When I first got down here, someone would hold the door for me, and I would literally blade
• 25:42
  off.
• 25:42
  And I'd be like, what do you want?
• 25:43
  You know?
• 25:44
  Because I was so used to that, like, tense atmosphere in Saint Louis and all that kind of
• 25:48
  stuff.
• 25:49
  And and I realized they're just holding the door.
• 25:52
  Now I get to hold the door, and it's been such an amazing like, I'm I'm stubborn.
• 25:57
  I will say that.
• 25:58
  So my egg cracked really slow.
• 26:00
  You know what I mean?
• 26:00
  I was very, like, hard done to.
• 26:04
  I was a victim for a very long time.
• 26:06
  You know?
• 26:07
  I was, like, stuck in this place where this isn't my fault.
• 26:10
  I thought I did the ultimate thing.
• 26:12
  I thought this was, like, almost proved my allegiance to, you know, like, a department,
• 26:16
  but now they they fired me because I can't return and all this kind of stuff.
• 26:21
  So, you know, I felt very down and out for a long period of time.
• 26:27
  But I look back at it now, and this is gonna sound crazy.
• 26:31
  If not for being shopped, I wouldn't be who I am today.
• 26:41
  And I would pick who I am today over who I was the night I got shot.
• 26:47
  And that's that's taken a long time.
• 26:49
  It's been ten years.
• 26:51
  I got shot in 2015, and, it's just been a really long process, especially with that extra
• 26:58
  trauma.
• 26:59
  Technically, I have complex PTSD, and it's just a it's funny.
• 27:06
  I didn't realize that that childhood memory or that that trauma meant meant something because
• 27:12
  I'm tough and I had to tuck it away and, you know, I can handle it and all that kind of
• 27:16
  stuff.
• 27:17
  And but it it mattered.
• 27:20
  And we as men do not talk about this.
• 27:23
  So when I talk about it, every once in a while, especially if I'm giving, like, a public speech
• 27:28
  or if I'm in an academy talking to people, I'll have someone come up to me, a man, and be like,
• 27:35
  that happened to me.
• 27:36
  I appreciate you saying that.
• 27:38
  And that's all it is.
• 27:39
  It's just, like, recognition that they're not alone.
• 27:41
  They're like, oh, that happened to me.
• 27:43
  I said it to one of my former officers, and about two hours later, we were playing golf.
• 27:48
  He was he was like, so tell me more about that.
• 27:51
  And then he kind of explained a situation of his own, you know, and, like, all these kinds
• 27:55
  of stuff.
• 27:55
  So there's a lot of stuff going on with a lot of people, and police officers do not have it
• 28:02
  all together.
• 28:03
  We're just normal human beings just trying to make the right decisions most of the time.
• 28:08
  Same with everyone in life, you know, just trying to do our best.
• 28:12
  Most of the time, I guess.
• 28:14
  But, anyways, you know, we we find that there's strength in sharing stories of being stuck up
• 28:18
  your own shit creek because it's good for the person who's telling it.
• 28:22
  I found and it's really weird.
• 28:23
  If you run into someone who's been through trauma, they wanna tell you all about it.
• 28:27
  You know?
• 28:27
  They'll tell you the story, and then if they see you again, they'll tell you the story.
• 28:30
  I would tell my story to strangers.
• 28:32
  I would tell my story till I was blue in the face, till I saw people rolling their eyes
• 28:36
  almost.
• 28:37
  And I didn't understand it.
• 28:38
  It was almost, like, impulsive.
• 28:40
  And within the last couple years, the idea someone brought me the idea that that is a
• 28:47
  natural response to trauma because trauma is almost like a jagged rock that you have in your
• 28:51
  hand, and it hurts you every time you touch it, you move it, you try to whatever.
• 28:56
  But the more you tell the story, it kinda smooths that rock out.
• 29:01
  It kinda makes it a little bit easier to tell the next time and a little bit easier to
• 29:05
  emphasize on the things that are important to others instead of just yourself, and it just
• 29:09
  gets smoother and smoother and smoother.
• 29:12
  So when you tell your story, you're giving yourself a gift.
• 29:15
  Like, you really are.
• 29:16
  You're giving yourself freedom.
• 29:17
  You're giving yourself power over a situation that may have had total control over you.
• 29:22
  And in doing that and speaking authentically to that, someone else out there hears it, and they
• 29:29
  can have any kind of, like, basically, like, symbionts or recall to a memory that they have
• 29:36
  or something like that.
• 29:37
  Like, you're helping them.
• 29:39
  And by helping them, they can help people around them.
• 29:42
  So it's kind of this cascading ripple effect, whatever you wanna say.
• 29:46
  But the more we talk about this stuff, the stronger we're gonna be.
• 29:49
  I mean, nothing's more courageous than talking about the stuff that's happened to you and own
• 29:53
  it.
• 29:55
  Powerful testimony, Cam.
• 29:57
  I appreciate you coming on the show today.
• 29:59
  Tell everyone where they can find your podcast and where they can hear more from you guys.
• 30:03
  Yeah.
• 30:04
  It's Shit Creek Survivors.
• 30:06
  The I is an exclamation point.
• 30:08
  You can find us on all major platforms.
• 30:10
  You can also go to our website, www.shitcreeksurvivors.com, and you can check
• 30:17
  us out there.
• 30:17
  You can contact us there if you wanna be on the show or be evaluated to see if you should come
• 30:21
  on the show.
• 30:22
  Send us some contact information.
• 30:24
  On Facebook, it's s h t creek survivors.
• 30:28
  They wouldn't let me put the I or the exclamation point.
• 30:30
  So
• 30:32
  Oh, well, I I appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today.
• 30:36
  I would love to come on and share my experience, in the world on your guys' podcast
• 30:41
  sometime.
• 30:42
  I would I would feel honored to do so.
• 30:44
  Cam, thanks for being part of the scene.
• 30:47
  Thank you so much.