Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Malaksingh Gill on Meta-Discipline and Sustainable Architecture (#007)

Transcript

Malaksingh Gill on Meta-Discipline and Sustainable Architecture (#007) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've got to do this.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: How he applies that to his own craft and teaching methods.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Over to my conversation with Malaking.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Malexing, thank you very much for uh joining my podcast.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's my uh privilege to have you as a guest today, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation with you.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Sir Swami Nathan.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: The privilege is mine.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Malexing, I want to start off with uh a key uh question that I have is your learning and unlearning when you were with uh the great uh Lori Baker.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: What did you discover and uh what were your learnings out of that stint?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, working with uh Baker G, the first learning was to understand uh from the man himself that uh you know it is not about uh your knowledge and your skill as much as it is wisdom and as much as it is about how you live your own life, uh then uh you know you practice and people may emulate you.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: But the main thing is that how you are conducting yourself and uh you know leading by example.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the other technological aspects and also uh you know managerial aspects which I learned uh with Laker Z was that the whole team was like a family.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was an outsider who had gone to Kerala, uh I did not know the language, but uh they were you know they just tried to understand how passionate I was, and once they realized that I was very, very serious about uh the field uh because they get people from all over the world coming there to you know train under them.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but they felt that I had some seriousness about taking this forward, so then they accepted me like family, and uh that atmosphere was a very, very important thing which I learned that it was possible in an architectural practice.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the other important thing I learned uh or unlearned this you know this difference which is there between uh your uh you know in your guild where you are an architect and then you design in an office and give instructions to a contractor who further gives instructions to a mason who further gives instructions to helper.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now uh two things I unlearned here.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: One is that uh you may have to start from the bottom of this pyramid to be able to become a better designer.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't know how the materials behave while working with them, uh how uh the dynamics of cooperative working is there on the field, uh you may not be able to evolve uh the designs and details accordingly.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is the entire cross-learning you know between all these uh divided uh sections of the working team is of very, very high value.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: It also uh taught us how to respect uh the last uh worker in the team.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and also the other way around.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I got a lot of uh reciprocation uh of respect and and a lot of uh you know love from the last worker.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so one folded up your sleeves and worked uh with them in the field like a mason, like a worker, so that one learned, but then they also respected that gesture immensely and they shared their knowledge.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So uh a lot of uh learning, unlearning happened there.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: The other unlearning which was very important was that uh you know you may learn from books, you may learn from drawings, but construction is an act uh and it has a very high value uh to the designing process, which is just a drawing.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, uh when we are when you're working with your hands, then uh the being in the act of it uh opens your mind to many many possibilities, uh to the actual difficulties of the work, and then you become a much more skilled and sensitive designer when you go back to the drawing table.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: It also uh keeps you physically and mentally fit.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: So there were so many uh unlearnings uh and learnings compared to the way I was you know visualizing architecture uh in my uh formal education in the city.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is it also not uh great that uh you know when you start working, some of these points that you made uh become uh real because you have to work with the diverse teams, you have to work with diverse clients.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure uh those learnings are also something that uh you know outside the uh you know uh architecture profession, I'm sure these learnings are also very relevant, right?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, definitely.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh architecture, by its uh you know, one of its definitions is a meta-discipline where it involves uh various kinds of uh you know resources to be activated.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just your your intelligence, wisdom, designing skill, but uh understanding and getting people on your side, uh being able to talk to them, getting information, uh understanding the social and the economic conditions of the people whom you are designing for, uh being aware of the political setting in which you will be designing.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: All these uh you know interactions happened when I was working in the field.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and because of that, it helps uh you to apply this everywhere, you know, it's a common thing, uh, any field you are in.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, which is why you know what I've done amazes uh practitioners in medicine, uh amazes you know, practitioners from from uh various fields, engineering or uh you know even education.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So uh they find all these generic values extremely, extremely helpful uh when you know I discuss my work with them.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Your your philosophy uh of learning in the field through observation is something you know which is uh caught my attention.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me uh how have you applied it in your work uh in different projects?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how did you kind of uh use the art of observation in actually running and building that project and thinking about that project?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So uh look uh observation the benefits of observation are straight away that you can learn from other people's uh success and their failures uh so that you can avoid repeating the failures in your own practice.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I'll give you a classic example.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we were doing a project for a retired engineer uh who wanted to took voluntary retirement to start farming in a village in Vidarva near Varda, and that is that area is the hottest part of our country.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now there is this black cotton soil uh which is excellent for farming, but is one of the most dangerous soils for building.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh you know the gentleman had a bought a he purchased a plot before he came to me, and that was in the field, and he had this conception of building a house in the farm.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now we have uh the ritual of going and observing and doing Reiki trips to study the you know vernacular or the regional uh the knowledge in the regional architecture.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, when we did that trip, we realized that nobody in that region builds in the farm because of it, particularly the nature of uh the soil, and they all choose uh you know, as a community, they choose settlements uh to uh to build on certain higher grounds where geologically that is a later later soil plateau, which is slightly higher than your floodplains where all the black cotton soil accumulates.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: So the higher platforms are good for building, and the lower platform, the the lower floodplains are full of uh black soil, so you can farm there.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: So we informed the client about this situation, and uh uh uh the client was first reluctant and said that uh no Malaking, uh, I have seen many examples of urban people who have gone and settled in the farm.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we will build a house in the farm.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay if you are recommending against it, we will get it done by our own architect, by someone else.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: So uh as soon as the monsoon uh you know approached, uh they made a visit to their farm for some work and they realized that they could not even walk in the farm because of the black cotton soil, they couldn't even make it to the center of their farm.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then they realized that what I had said was right.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, then I used uh satellite imagery to uh draw cross-sections from a simple tool like a simple app, like Google Earth, and uh I showed them that every settlement in that region was always made on a higher uh topography, and nobody had built their houses in a uh you know uh floodplain, and then they realized, and then they invited me to visit that place and scout for the right land for them to buy and then build a house over there.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so then you know we got successful, we did that, and uh, you know, uh and the building came out beautifully.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um another example in the same place was they had an issue with putting clay tiles on the roof, and uh their worry was very simple.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: They said that we are doing farming and the monkeys will come and jump on the roof, uh you know, as local people had told them.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so the tiles will break.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we will not put clay tiles, which means that one would have to use something like as the stores or tin sheets, which are not good for the health or the environment.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, based on my because I realized that this must have been a problem and you know people must have tried to solve it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so I looked at uh you know roof roofing details, right from China to Southeast Asia, people have been doing this.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: They actually put a layer of mud under their tiles, uh, you know, above the wooden framework, they put this same expansive black soil as a layer above their wood and below their tiles.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that one is that uh, you know, this this mud, if the water falls through the tiles on the mud, the mud expands.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's extremely high expansive coefficient, and it blocks the gaps for any further water to come down.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the mud itself becomes a waterproofing, it gives excellent thermal uh comfort because it keeps the house inside super cool in the very high temperature, and the very important aspect what what it does is that if monkeys come and jump on the roof, now it's not hollow anymore under the tiles.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: You have filled it with mud, so the tiles don't break.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it this was observed in a region in a district very close to uh this, you know, in Nandir, not very far from here.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: So uh you know we learned that, and it was it's also done in China.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we just learned that and applied it over here.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: So here was another example of how you know one can uh probably solve uh difficulties or challenges by observing what others have done.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I just want to uh you know pull back to a statement or a word that you used.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you talked about architecture being a meta-discipline.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh can you uh kind of explain it further by saying uh you know what does it mean and what are the components of uh uh meta metadiscipline as a subject?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh see, uh when a field is dependent on many other factors, uh it does not remain a single discipline by itself.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give you an example.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when we say you know there is this very popular scheme now called Avas Yojana, uh now it is a Pradhan Mantri Avas Yojna.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now this Yojana gives money to people to make Paka houses.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And uh this in to the you know to the economically weaker sections in villages, it just gives the money and tells them that you have to make pakka houses with this money.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what happens is when the people make the paka house, then what is ensured is a space, a volume for shelter using materials which are you know mostly cement, concrete, steel, which come from outside, uh the masons of which also uh you know uh are as specialists which are coming from far away from the village who come there, build this piece and go away.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this these kind of houses have been extremely unsuccessful because architecture here has not been looked at as a meta-discipline.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: When you look at architecture uh as a meta-discipline, you will consider that the house is not just the building, the house is the entire resource catchment area which provides for the materials and the knowledge skills to build the house.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, what happens in the in uh the traditional uh rural architecture is that they conserve the forests, they uh you know manage the forest uh sensibly so that they can get their wood, they can get their soil, they can get their water uh for food as well as for house building.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh they one has to also know farming if one has to know architecture.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: One has to also uh know how to you know uh cut wood or or uh you know has to have the knowledge of botany uh and identify uh you know taxonomy of trees if one has to uh build a house.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, one has to know how to work uh you know as a team.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so so it needs so many different different uh you know disciplines.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: One has to know how to you know take care of uh the biodiversity about also the microorganisms which would affect the house.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: So some knowledge of you know the chemistry of things, the biology of things.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and a house also then it's a social uh kind of enterprise as well, because the houses are not built by you know a specialist team which will come build the house and go away.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: But most of the houses, even today, like 60 to 70 percent of houses in the world are built by cooperative building by people themselves without any agency and and specialists from outside.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the community comes together, builds the house, and what they get in return is a big party that is free food and uh alcohol, you know, wherever it is uh customary.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: So uh in architecture, what we get to learn from this is that one has to be aware of and uh be able to apply skills like a music composer, you know, uh like a person who kind of uh conducts actually a conductor of an uh orchestra where someone may play a certain instrument, someone may play another, someone may play percussion, someone may play rhythm.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the conductor has to be able to put everyone in space and time so that it makes music.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that picture is there with the architect, and nobody else you know uh can visualize that completely.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh for the construction, for the maintenance, for the kind of usage which it will uh have, the usage patterns by the people, in fact, even uh uh you know providing for expansion in the future, where uh one has to design a place in such a way that they know that tomorrow, if this has to be expanded, how can we build something which will provide for that expansion?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: So someone has to be aware of even uh some knowledge of demographics, some knowledge of uh you know uh market research to be able to be a good architect.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me uh Malak, if meta-discipline is such an important thing, uh, when uh you know one is learning the discipline, and I'm just calling it uh you know, any discipline, it could be uh architecture, it could be even your learning starting from schools, this concept of meta-discipline is not uh there in any of our uh institutions today.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: How do you kind of uh you know uh uh you know grow them?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: How do you kind of uh get them uh into uh the institutions?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're also a teacher.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: True, true, true.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh that is I have actually worked uh on this with uh so many of my students, and that is why it has succeeded uh in making many of my students uh extremely successful practitioners in the same field.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well uh the idea is to, you know, uh first and foremost, is it's very important to have a very, very aware uh uh kind of uh you know student to have uh a culture in education where everything which is contemporary is relevant.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it may directly or indirectly affect uh your discipline, but all the ongoings uh have to be uh assimilated in your thinking.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: So one uh spoke of architecture as a uh you know uh as in fact just as a uh incidental uh field which helps housing, but the focus was on everything else which creates the need for housing.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: So one uh spoke of uh the political dimensions, the economic uh scenario in the country, the history of uh all these which has affected, for example, migration creates the need for housing uh in cities.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and even still the houses in the cities are you know built by the uh the most of the houses are built by people themselves.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: No one is actually providing housing.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and the it's an amazing thing that in city like Bombay, actually 50% of the building stock, which is built you know as buildings, is lying vacant because they are investments and nobody is staying in that.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And whereas 70% of the housing is actually which is actually being built for uh you know low-income uh housing is actually built by enterprises which are not through any architecture or or kind of uh you know government department.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: So uh there it uh you know uh becomes very important to sensitize the students to various uh factors which are affecting the architecture which they see around.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so for them to get involved in in the aspects like politics, uh you know, uh cultural issues, uh, and through contemporary events, uh also having a historical perspective is very, very important.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: So always to place architecture or your field in the context of a larger matrix uh you know is becomes very important uh to generate you know uh to have to cultivate a kind of uh uh systems thinking approach uh so that they look at their field as only one part of this uh system rather than it as uh you know something which generates uh other systems, but also being influenced by other systems.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so this is how uh you know one actually tells them a story.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And uh invokes role play from architects as you know who are you in this entire story uh which is playing out around us, uh both in space and time.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Once one places oneself in that story, then it the student gets uh you know initiative, gets a sense of responsibility that our acts actually are going to uh you know have the potential of changing things and affecting things.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and one of the very important uh kind of uh stimuli I give is that I tell my own story because uh if I have been able to affect some uh some kind of uh you know uh dimensions of practice, then it is because of this kind of approach, and that immediately clicks to the students.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, what kind of uh methodologies uh do you use?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because the traditional classroom you know sometimes restricts your imagination.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh what kind of methodologies and tools do you use to contextualize this uh awareness of the context?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: So uh very interestingly, one of the interesting uh things uh which I have been doing, and I'm going to share that, is so I connect the architecture or the need for making shelter to uh to other basic needs like food and clothing.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we actually encourage our students to cook, to source materials, uh seasonal materials, to cook seasonal dishes, and to explain the efficiency of why, for example, a sarsoka sag and makai kiroti tastes so wonderful and you get it in good quality in in the particular winter season.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: So they have to then uh you know uh uh draw out the entire uh matrix of that it grows in, you know, it is harvested in winter and it is good for giving you know uh nutrition but heat also in the body, and uh where is it grown, what kind of soil is required.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now then the way of cooking is like a chemistry of uh you know uh of of uh you know making mixing materials when you are constructing because you need to understand the chemistry of and the bonding of materials.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: So cooking is very much like that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Then where a particular so you may live in Bombay, but if you have apple a day and keeps the doctor away, it doesn't make sense because apple grows in uh you know certain particular climates.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: So the geographical aspect of sourcing of a material uh becomes very important in architecture as well.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so so you know, examples like these.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: So in firstly, you know, involving them, uh then giving them examples of how people are dressed in you know hot climates.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: So look at the buildings then, and then look at how people are dressed in the cold climates and then look at the buildings.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you will clearly see how the size of openings differs.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: So here's another kind of uh thing, then getting them aware to the cultural aspects of how people as a group really you know approach uh uh life, uh, you know, and I always teach it through analogies in other fields which are simpler to understand, uh, so that then they can apply the lesson into uh architecture.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this is one thing.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is that you know almost almost all of us are migrants, you know, very few of us are really you know the original uh kind of sons of the soil here in Bombay.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I make them uh go to their native places wherever they are from and study the architecture over there.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that immediately uh you know connects them to uh a kind of landscape, physical and cultural, which they have not actually been in touch with for uh you know most of their lives.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and one anecdote is very interesting.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of thing happened is that this girl uh we went so and what we do is we make each each of them host all of us.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: So if there are say 15 students, so 14 of us will go to this 15th person's house, his family will host, and we will eat that food, stay there for a few days, document that architecture.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: So all 14 of us have learned something from that region, okay, and then and then we repeat this kind of thing.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: So an interesting uh you know thing happened where uh we when we went to a person's village, uh we actually you know we were looking at the houses around and uh we saw this house near her house, and we said that we should do this, this is an old house.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: So she said that this is my great-granduncle's house, and uh I have never been there.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, because of our study, it is it has not just actually uh given them lessons in architecture, but has also created extremely strong uh kind of social and community bonds uh through these lessons.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: And today these architects are successful practitioners and they often tell their stories that their inspiration and journey began then uh when uh the studying uh kind of exercises connected them to their roots.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so this is uh you know another way.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: There are other ways also where I get them to construct, uh, you know, come on my sites and actually work hands-on.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that there again they realize that what is the difference between drawing a wall and building a wall.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then who are the people who actually build the wall, and uh, you know, therefore, how can we design so that the building process is more uh you know healthy and and uh in a way uh you know uh harm less harmful to the people who make these meetings, uh, and also easier.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: So uh you know that all these are some of the methodologies which I have used to uh you know uh make them uh open to uh this uh meta-discipline.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh fantastic.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: You are also a keen believer, uh uh Malak Singji, the uh importance of local jobs, local economy, and local environment.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Can you really give me an example of uh how you kind of achieved it in a project so that we can take key examples to apply it in other businesses also?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh see uh one is you see, uh, there are so many things.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: There is, I mean, broadly you can talk about the environment as you know the physical environment where you call it nature and you know natural resources, the the wind, the water, the land.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, then and the other is the sociocultural environment.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now both are equally important, and very often uh resources or nature has been looked through the sociocultural environment.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we always approach nature through people and the way they look at nature.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: What we have done in any kind of classical example, uh we have a project right now which is going on uh near uh in Wada in the Palgar district near Bombay, north of Bombay.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay and uh the work is still going on over there in this lockdown uh because all the workers are the local workers.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Now look at the dimensions here.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they are not affected by the pandemic, by the lockdown.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: They are working over there.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the person who is building his house is not suffering a loss because they are working over there.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh of course, needless to say, that the house has been designed only based on the knowledge which these local people have and the materials which we can procure from right around that uh building.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: So the materials are local, uh, the cost to the client is less, the cost to the environment is less because there's less pollution in uh you know transporting this material.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thirdly, uh the cost uh I mean to the client is less because the people are also local, and uh there is now in a situation like this, there's been there has been no stoppage of work.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Further, once uh you know uh so this is what is happening is this is taking care of physical environment, which is nature, so we are not polluting at the same time as the cultural environment, because uh the people then uh have contributed to this house.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they have gotten out of it, they have got their kind of sustenance out of it.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a relation which is already stuck between local people and this person who is building his house there.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a cultural environment, social environment uh you know, which we are already kind of nurturing there.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: So this philosophy, uh you know, I mean it could be applicable to most of uh you know the fields where uh once we have the people as a very very important uh you know kind of uh factor in in our strategy uh you know for whatever product uh or process which we are planning, uh then the chances of uh success become very very high.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm sitting right now through the pandemic uh and I have three projects which are going on full swing and in all parts of the country.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it's because the people are local and because we have we are able to instruct them from here, because the knowledge they already have.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: We are only you know uh fine-tuning it with our kind of expertise.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: We are not uh teaching them something new, uh, and it is giving great value to the client, not just in the process, but also in the product, because it is that way a more uh you know, uh therefore it is a more uh sustainable, uh eco-friendly product when the people also benefit from it.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: The other uh thing that uh you always uh stayed away from is you have not you know been a prey to consumerism.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you're not you basically have avoided the uh brunt of commercialism in your own career.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: How do you uh guard these life principles yet uh be so successful in a career like yours?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well I think uh like they say that uh you know virtue is a habit.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if you have done this for so many years, uh you it is very difficult to change that.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in fact, sometimes we we are also human and we do sometimes get tempted by this kind of success and uh kind of commercial uh you know uh you know possibilities it brings in front of us.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but then because the environment we have created around us is so strong and our team and the people who are associated with us so kind of immersed in this process, it never lets us you know forget uh who we are and you know what has gotten us here.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I think it is largely social.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: It is about uh, like I said, people are at the center of this process also.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: I invest in people.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the trust and the kind of uh you know uh relationship which I which I have with people uh actually helps me to uh to not kind of stray from my core principles.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because I believe that uh you know we are human and it is very easy to uh you know get tempted because you have struggled all your life and you have kind of kept away from certain things.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but then when it comes to you on a platter, you feel that why not?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I want this kind of thing.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but then uh your your family, your team, and everyone around you, in fact, your you know younger teammates, uh even my little seven-year-old daughter uh will sometimes correct me, you know, and say that, uh, but Papa, you're not supposed to do this because this is how it's supposed to be done.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel extremely safe uh in the environment which I have created myself.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: It it actually, you know, in return it takes care of uh me, but one cannot be complacent because uh that environment can change very quickly.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and therefore, it is uh combination I feel where one has to be uh you know continue to practice very strictly what one believes in, uh, at the same time create the environments which will nurture your own uh the culture of your own uh kind of beliefs and and practice.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: That helps me to really uh you know stay uh on the path which I have been uh working on.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how do you uh protect yourself from uh getting into a fixed mindset versus uh adopting modern you know technology uh you know in this kind of a mindset?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: How do you kind of protect yourself from that thinking?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, see, actually uh it is not very difficult because you are constantly uh probed by this uh kind of uh uh dilemma, uh and survival teaches you because if one is very very uh rigid and kind of fixed on ideas uh and methods, uh then one will not survive in today's world, which is changing so fast.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh one has moved from uh you know, over time, one has moved from uh association or attachment with the uh product to attachment with the process, because uh there will never be a perfect uh product.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, this one has come to understand, but the process can always be perfect, because uh uh this the there are like I said, that uh the product depends on so many factors which are dynamic and changing very fast in the world today.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, a tribal person, uh I mean I have I'll give you an example.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when I have to convince a tribal person to use, say, build in mud or something like that, when he wants a cement house, I have to open my uh you know, iPad or iPhone and show him videos of the work I have done.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: So the person gets it, you know.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so technology has its role.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh technology should not be the purpose.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, technology should be the means for what you want to achieve.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that differentiation is something which one has to constantly be aware of.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh having said that, the means also have to justify you know uh their own kind of sustenance.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what you can do with a high-tech product should be justified with what you know it actually achieves rather than just its potential.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so so one is very conscious of this thing, and uh it is difficult to survive without adapting.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, it is always uh this is a time of uh you know hybridization of uh kind of synthetic in a way culture where various thought processes also have to mix, uh you know, actually uh operating processes also have to collaborate, uh, and uh you know the products also uh have to uh be kind of hybrid so that they can uh answer or kind of satisfy a very fast-changing world.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: I am picking up on something you said just now.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about you can get your process right, product you know, uh can you know uh have some issues.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: Give me some examples of uh how what process have you put in place uh to ensure that the philosophy and the ethos of what you do, because you are a believer in work ethic.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: And what processes have you put in place to ensure that the final product, the outcome is something that will you know most of most often be you know good?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: What process have you put in place and can you walk us through some of the things that uh you you know for you it is non-negotiable?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: So classic example is you know uh the field I'm associated with is generally known as eco-friendly architecture.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh in this uh you know, an imagery is generally developed that eco-friendly architecture means mud buildings means using uh you know less concrete, steel, etcetera, etcetera.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but uh this is an identification with the imagery of the product.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: It is not really uh the understanding of the process.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: So classically, you know, one one example which we are right now doing is we had uh an inquiry to basically break a 25-year-old RCC house and make a mud building, uh, of course, with some more additional requirements.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: So uh you know we actually worked very hard to convince the client that we can retrofit and adapt your existing RCC building to add on whatever we may have to add with mud or you know with with uh with wood or eco-friendly, conventionally called eco-friendly materials, and to complete your house uh rather than break this RCC uh building and make uh completely new mud building.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because we said that it is important to understand the process of being good to the environment rather than just being focused on the product.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: This way we will be saving uh all the materials, energy which has been invested in this for so many years.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: It has a life of maybe 40-50 years more left.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we can retain that, we can retrofit it, adapt it so that when you add on the new uh you know uh building or around it or on top of it, that can be with the natural materials.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a very, very kind of good example of uh process uh versus you know, I would have been less eco-friendly if I had broken that, dumped at RCC somewhere, uh, you know, and then that would have polluted, you know, as a landfill.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: It is very toxic for the land, and I would have had a wonderful looking mud house, and you know, I it makes no difference to me.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: I make the same money, and the client will think he's got a very eco-friendly product, but the process is wrong.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, thereby, this is one very important uh aspect of uh seeing what you have and the systems which are in place, and the important thing is how you can use the systems uh which are in place uh to get the most out of it rather than to replace them and make something which is considered as uh ideal, uh you know, associated with the image.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Another example uh is that you know, uh we when we have to say give a certain product to a client, uh we put a rider there.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: We say that you know uh we we will make this, for example, we will make this house with wood or whatever materials.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but you have to concede that the finish of the materials and this thing, without obviously compromising on the durability and you know the quality, but the finish or the characteristic of this product will have the uh you know the character of the local working people who will be doing this.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if I have to do a wood building, of course, the wood mason from uh wood carpenter from Pune will not be as skilled in the finished joinery, etc., as a say someone from Mangalore or from uh you know Karnataka or from the coastal side because the culture of woodworking is much more evolved there and the details and finishing are much better.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if you are making it here, uh we will be working with a local person and we will you know uh make sure that the finish is good.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: It may not be as superior as what you may have got from that kind of carpenter, but you know, this is a part of our work ethics that we will try to give the work to a local person.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is where the when we you know discuss these things, we counsel the client with these things, it again brings out the aspect of the process as being more important than the product.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because uh what we are trying to do is not just make buildings or products for people to see, appreciate, get inspired, and then give us more work, but we are doing these things as a larger kind of aim to generate a culture of doing sensible architecture, of doing more uh you know environment and people-friendly architecture, and that will only happen when we can involve the local people in this.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, through one house, we want to affect the choice of thousands of people who see that house.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if there is no stakeholdership within that uh house building process from the local people, then that will.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Never inspire you know inspire them uh to take up similar construction.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: So this process is made explicit to the clients, to the users, uh, as we develop you know uh the house.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: And very often we have uh succeeded in doing this.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: We we have another example is when you know uh uh we are using timber in some buildings.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we request the client uh without having any financial kind of uh implications, we request them that see we are buying the timber from the forest department uh indirectly, of course, through the dealer, but it has come from its legal timber.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, when we are using so much timber, the forest forest department is maintaining it, they are uh taking care of the forest, they are regenerating the forest.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but it is also our responsibility that if we are using, say, for example, 40 trees for our house uh and we have the land, uh would you please like to take a make a commitment to us that you will plant 40 trees uh you know, which are conducive to your land and to that area of the native species.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we also put these kind of uh you know uh you know commitments on the client, uh and they mostly agree.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we have rarely had a possibility where it's completely impossible or impractical.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so the process is again made more important to them than the product.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then they, when they go and inhabit these places, they actually live uh extensions of those processes rather than just enjoying the product.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because then they tell stories to their you know family members, to the visitors, etc., about the house, and we feel so proud that you know these clients did not have that kind of awareness uh you know when they had come to us uh to build the house, they just wanted an eco-friendly house.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but today when you know uh we see uh it has probably changed uh their outlook uh and their way of life, uh, and that is where we pass on the thinking of our process uh to the clients.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: One question uh you know uh that comes to my mind as I hear you speak, how do you you know make it a movement rather than you know this whole eco-friendly culture and this whole thinking around eco-friendliness?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: How do you make it a movement rather than it being a niche interest?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think we should do to make it happen?
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh see, uh I realized this thing way back uh you know when I started off.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, when I was a student, and I found it very difficult uh to practice this even as a student.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um see, a lot of practical questions were put to me uh because there was very less precedent in in our uh city and state actually, and in most parts of India, uh barring the south, there was not much precedent of this kind of work.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I always had this question.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing I first way I found to do this is as soon as uh you know I was uh you know able to dig my first building, which was in Bombay itself, uh, and it got fairly uh you know a fair amount of uh success and publicity.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: I immediately took the opportunity to start teaching in an architecture college.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because uh for me that was very important to uh use the education institutional uh infrastructure to you know spread this work, and that has been a very big uh you know source of me creating awareness, giving an alternative to uh the students in the architecture fraternity.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Although it took a fair amount of time, it may be almost 15 years that you know colleges are now uh architecture colleges are now really uh you know using this as as taking this as an official kind of subject uh in their in their uh schools.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh also the awareness, overall awareness uh you know, in the in the other in the general schooling, right from primary, secondary of environment has helped to get out students uh you know uh in in the professional colleges where they're already aware.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the media is also helping a lot today, uh, where uh there are so many awareness campaigns, uh you know, there's uh media coverage, reporting on environmental issues.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what really uh you know gives uh a kind of stimulus or a catalyst I must say to this kind of overall awareness amongst the population is to see a successful practice.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: So my practice is also aimed at becoming an example.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, very often I have taken projects just so that I can do them for people to see that this is possible.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so, therefore, one is the practice uh which is out in the you know open kind of uh uh forum platform for people to see and and get inspired by.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: I've learned uh from so many architects that they actually use my website for doing case studies uh you know when they are uh going to design such buildings.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um the other thing, like I said, through the education institutions uh and then uh through you know part podcasts and interviews like like uh this one itself, I'm making myself uh you know uh uh open and available to a larger audience very deliberately.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in fact, uh participating in this podcast was also part of the same kind of intention that if there is a different kind of audience which may be exposed to this and it may you know spread the kind of uh approach uh in in a different kind of discipline, uh then I think uh you know that will contribute to the larger purpose of what you're saying, how to make this a movement.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I also think that overall uh in health, in the fields of health uh and education, uh there are these uh there are these movements which are happening, parallel movements on uh sustainable kind of you know practices.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so they all actually uh you know uh then meet at crossroads because they are all talking about the same thing uh you know uh essentially.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh also the social media platforms uh really help today uh to put this uh kind of message across.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was not there in our times, maybe 20 years back.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: But today these there are various platforms, and I'm now becoming more and more open and uh trying to you know uh respond to any such platform which uh you know comes forth and uh try to kind of spread this work.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: How do you see the future of architecture in cities to sustain this whole uh natural environment and reduce carbon emissions?
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: How do you see it over the next uh 50 years?
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: What should be done to decongest these cities and how what kind of approach do you believe needs to be taken?
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I think that process uh of uh decongesting cities has already begun.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you can clearly see the new Bombay uh experiment, which started maybe 15-20 years back, and you see how uh many uh you know of uh the uh you know commercial uh enterprises uh have come up on that side, uh housing has been taken care of to a great extent.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you are going to have an airport, international airport there very soon.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Bombay actually the uh the migrant population coming in Bombay has actually reduced.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh people are now increasingly seeing that uh you know the density of cities is a problem.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this recent pandemic itself was a big message.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um I, for one, have been uh I don't know if I must really be happy about this or not, but I got a lot of uh inquiries and calls to make uh houses outside the city during the lockdown period.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but of course, that is only for people who can afford these kind of second homes, etc.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but on the whole, uh I mean the observation is that you know cities are not growing as much as villages and small towns are becoming urbanized.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: So the larger urbanization is happening in small towns.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there is a lot of uh work to be done uh you know to uh to calibrate how this urbanization is going to happen, should happen.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just the day before yesterday I was talking to uh the PWD engineers of Maharashtra through an uh a workshop training program organized by IIT Mumbai, and uh they were extremely open to the kind of work which uh you know I was suggesting can be done in rural areas.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we can you know give and introduce good practices in the rural and small town areas, those are tomorrow's cities.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: The cities have uh to a great extent, I mean the big cities have actually stagnated.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh cities like Bombay, you know, know that uh we have gone way beyond our bearing capacity.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there are some there are some very, very uh concerted efforts by environmentalists.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the recent uh you know campaign uh in the RA forest area against that metro shed is a clear example.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: Some of my students are part of that campaign.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh you know the present government actually revoked that uh order and and uh reserved that thing as a forest.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: So uh awareness is growing in India.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think a lot of work has to be done in smaller tiers to uh cities, uh towns, uh, and villages because that is where I feel that they actually copy the urban or the city model and try to become like another Mumbai or you know, Mumbai tries to become Shanghai, that kind of uh uh you know aspiration is there.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is very important and which is also where my larger focus of my practice is in small towns and rural areas to create the right kind of aspiration models.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that is uh one of the small ways in which uh you know I am trying to uh to do this.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but overall I think there is uh much needed to be done at the institutional at the government institutional level uh to to promote sensible architecture.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: I must say that some governments are doing it, uh but uh much more needs to be done, and the fraternity of architects should actually you know take uh some initiative and uh you know push in the right direction.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was absolutely fantastic talking to you.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the concept of sensible architecture, the need for the environment-friendly materials that we should use.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the idea of the meta-discipline.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm going to dwell on it a lot more.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you really opened my mind through this conversation.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your time, Amaleksi.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Mr.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Swamias.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was a pleasure talking to you and wishing your podcast series also.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much, and uh thanks for your time.