Latest / The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers / BONUS EPISODE: The Invention of DEX (w/ Pedro Bados & Yassine Zaied)

Transcript

BONUS EPISODE: The Invention of DEX (w/ Pedro Bados & Yassine Zaied) · The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers

0:01
Welcome it, change Makers to the Deck Show with Tim Flower and Tom McGrath.
0:07
Let's get into it. Hello, change Makers, welcome back to the
0:12
Deck Show for a very very special episode. Indeed, my name is Tom
0:16
McGrath. I'm joined as ever by my meme man, Tim Flower. Tim,
0:20
how's it going today? How are you feeling about this one? As
0:23
ever a time? I'm feeling really good. We have the boss and the
0:27
boss's boss. How often do we get that opportunity to get them both in
0:30
the same room. I'm absolutely terrified Tim buddying with the boss and the boss's
0:35
boss. Guess we've been around the black Tom. You're used to pressure.
0:39
Pressure makes diamonds, so we're gonna regular makes diamonds. That's an excellent thought.
0:45
Okay, let's let's welcome them. Let's start with the Boss's boss.
0:49
Next Think founder and CEO Pedro Bados and a returning guest to the Deck Show.
0:56
Pedro, lovely to see you again. Lovely to have you back on
0:58
the show. Thank you. It's a pleasure him and town to be here
1:03
with you. Thank you, Thank you, Pedro and first time. Welcome
1:07
now to Next Think's chief strategy and marketing officer, you've seen Zaid's you've seen
1:14
as a first time guest on the show, but has been a huge supporter
1:19
of the Deck Show in back rooms and board rooms for a couple of years
1:23
now, so we're particularly delighted to welcome him here today. Welcome you seem
1:26
great to have you. Thank you Tom, Thank you Tim. Very glad
1:30
to be here. Okay, Pedro, we'll start with you. When we
1:34
first had you and the show a couple of years ago, we basically did
1:38
a history of Next Think together, so we've already covered in conversation the amazing
1:44
origin story of how you at engineering college in Switzerland came up with the innovation
1:49
that became the company Next Think. And of course this is very entangled with
1:55
the history of decks because that same technology would eventually lead to v mens of
2:00
this space. But I wonder if we should use as a jump off point
2:04
today where you feel that transition first occurred to you, Where it was first
2:09
suggested to you, where the technology you initially conceived of something that would be
2:16
a very useful security tool suddenly pointed in a new direction. So I remember
2:24
we were in Switzerland, so you know, we went out and talked to
2:29
all these great Swiss companies, And I remember the conversation with the it's called
2:36
the seas or the chief security and information officer at Rolicks, the very famous
2:42
watchmaker, and I think he was somehow a visionary from that standpoint because he
2:50
said, look, having you know, the end user perspective understanding how employees
2:55
are using my digital services has great value for security. But that happens maybe
3:01
once every two weeks, once every month that I have really a security incident.
3:07
But I have every day people that they are adopting new applications. I
3:12
have every day people that they are working, and there are things that they
3:15
are not working for them. I know a fraction of them they are actually
3:21
opening tickets and really escalating these problems. So the daily value that a technology
3:27
like this is bringing to my operations and is bringing to my business is much
3:31
more stronger than you know, just let's say another security monitoring solution. And
3:38
that was kind of a big realization for us because, as we said,
3:43
you know, number one customer for many IT departments is actually the internal employee,
3:47
and for many businesses and for many CEOs, right the internal employees,
3:52
because that's the ones actually they run the business and not having the ability to
3:57
really understand how they are experiencing the digital services, how they are interacting with
4:03
the company. Now most of the interactions are digital. Understanding the problems they're
4:09
having. That's really a big, i would say, challenge and a very
4:13
interesting challenge back in the days to tackle. It's great to have you seen
4:17
here as well. You've seen. Some of the best conversations that you and
4:20
I have are when we're in the heat of trying to describe what we do
4:27
right, why it's so important to enterprises, why everybody on the planet needs
4:30
to have this. Over the early years, though, Next Think was looking
4:35
for ways to explain exactly what we do in a clear, concise and a
4:41
compelling way, and we eventually landed on decks the management of digital employee experience,
4:46
and those three words seem to be resonating in the market. Tell us
4:50
about the transition into what eventually became DEX, what triggered it, and how
4:56
do you or how did you perceive that transition into basically a a novel space.
5:00
Thank you, Tim and listening to Pedreau, there are so many memories
5:06
that are coming back and and to answer your question, it comes always from
5:14
discussions with customers. By the way, it's it's always interesting and what Pederu
5:18
described about that first customer, and I remember exactly the discussion and the way
5:26
Pederu described it, and one thing that remains in our head very quickly when
5:31
he said, if you remember Pedru, he said, in addition to the
5:35
operation and the daily operation, he said, this is just amazing because as
5:42
if I was in a dark croom and I switched it on the light and
5:46
suddenly I'm seeing everything. I'm seeing what is happening, what incident and whatever.
5:54
And we realized that day that although you know it, teams and large
6:00
companies invested millions, invested so many resources in tools and processes and system to
6:10
try to never to be in the dark, not never be surprised by a
6:14
major incident, they still got surprised every single day by an escalation by a
6:20
major incident that employees cannot work and they go into a nightmare too resolved,
6:29
and we realize that the missing link we have we did it, which is
6:34
seeing everything from the user perspective and seeing everything in the context of the activity
6:42
of the employee himself, so we are not just looking to pieces by pieces,
6:47
whether they're up or down. We are seeing the whole flow for every
6:53
single employee and for all of them all the time, and that's how we
6:57
start realizing how much we can help IT teams to actually get out from that
7:04
nightmare. Be proactive, see what is happening before the alert from the user,
7:10
and resolved before it becomes an issue. And a couple of years later,
7:16
I we have one customer who actually forwarded to me an email thread that
7:23
he was, you know, talking with one of the executives of the company,
7:28
and basically he sent him an email telling him, sir, yesterday,
7:32
we noticed that you had this problem. We noted that your device you know,
7:42
crushed when you are using this application, and we are sorry for that.
7:46
We corrected it, we resolved it, and it will not happen again.
7:50
And by the way, we ordered a new device for you, because
7:55
we are discovering as well that given what you use, you need a much
8:01
more powerful device. And the executive answered him back and asked him, but
8:07
I didn't open a ticket, I didn't call the IT support, And the
8:13
IT person replied, we don't need to wait for that anymore. We are
8:18
capable to see the problems. We are capable to resolve them, and we
8:22
are capable to actually discover what configuration needs to be changed to make it work
8:28
better. And the executive answered back, copying the CIO and saying, this
8:35
is what I call a true digital experience. And that hit us in some
8:41
way, which is we realize that we do even much more than helping IT
8:48
people to solve the problems. That will remain our main objective, of course,
8:54
is really to equip all the IT teams in the world with the capability
9:00
to see what is going on, to resolve it immediately and not to have
9:03
escalations and problems. But by doing that, or through doing that, we
9:09
are delivering a much bigger value to the whole enterprise, which is making all
9:13
the employees having a fantastic digital employee experience and you know, get their job
9:20
done very quickly, feel proud of having a full day full of activities because
9:26
nothing was broken, because they didn't lose time. And that's where we started
9:31
to think that, hey, we are doing a much bigger thing and we
9:35
are delivering a much bigger value than we even thought in the beginning. That's
9:39
really interesting, Pedro. When you were making the transition of the kind that
9:45
you seen was just describing there. What was the sense that you had of
9:48
the ratio between on one hand, risk and on the other hand, potential
9:54
reward for really trying to explore something that was so new. I mean,
9:58
the reality didn't happen overnight, so it took us really a few years,
10:05
and I think at some point we were trying to understand what is the market
10:11
that has the biggest potential for us? And the worst decision was to pick
10:16
two markets so or three, right, because we understood that different buyers,
10:24
different products, we were never going to be the best in both. So
10:31
the question for us was really about should we focus really on security or should
10:37
we really focus on operations. Obviously there was not digital employer experience as a
10:41
market for US was more operations, right the way we describe it. And
10:48
I think for US the security market, because it was already you know,
10:54
quite a few big players and probably needed really some different type of organization,
11:01
a lot of research at front and things like that, was something that it's
11:07
going to be very hard to be the best in the world. And there
11:13
is this new emerging market in which, as we said, people don't want
11:16
to really be reactive. At the same time, there's going to be more
11:22
and more of these sasas applications. They're going to be a little bit of
11:24
more flexibility at the workplace, so it's going to become harder and harder to
11:30
run the operations for employees in companies. So there is a new opportunity.
11:35
It's definitely small, and we have really very very heated debates at board level
11:43
to really end this because security was such a great market as well, right
11:46
to really focus on operations or end use their experience I think that was another
11:52
name back in the days instead of really security. But you know, we
12:00
actually focused and I think already in the first year, first one or two
12:03
years, everything became so much easier because the value proposition was one, was
12:09
not two or three. The people they knew, you know, in which
12:15
category were playing, the customers, they were able to put us somehow in
12:18
a box, so they were able to talk to their management about the problems
12:22
they are solving. So I think that's more or less how the decision came
12:28
up. Yeah, came out. So you've seen let's go beyond the name
12:31
right as we see in the market, and it's a great thing. But
12:33
anybody can use the term dex it's not proprietary, and we see software vendors
12:39
using it and it's great. There's a lot of pride that we created that
12:43
and now there's a market around it. But the others don't have the technology
12:48
that we do to actually execute on it the right way. So I'm curious
12:52
from your perspective, what were the big technology milestones in the full development next
12:56
thing that really took the concept into reality. Very very interesting question, questioned
13:03
him, by the way, and I will say there were two milestones the
13:11
beginning. As Pedrou said before, the core of what we do today is
13:18
powered by that first invention made by Pedru and you know, Patrick and the
13:22
others, which is being capable to see everything in real time all the time.
13:31
From the end user perspective, it is not easy to realize, it
13:37
is not easy even to solve technologically, because it's an amazing technology challenges.
13:43
And I always give this parallel saying, you know many other as you said,
13:48
some technologies you know, and some vendors you know, they do bits
13:54
and bites of it. As if you imagine you have attracked him and you
13:58
have software that is monitoring the engine. You have a software that is monitoring
14:03
the load. You have a software that is monitoring the state of mind of
14:09
the driver, but actually you don't know whether he's in a traffic jam,
14:13
whether he's taking the right route. Whatever. Next thing is having all of
14:18
those information but known exactly the route and all the journey of that attract so
14:24
everything is put in context. And that core was made in day one and
14:30
that's really, you know, the biggest thing. I would say that the
14:33
second milestone and I remember I was with DO in India basically and he brought
14:39
the idea and he said, you know we should do engage. And engage
14:46
is you know, naming the innovation with it, which is the capability to
14:52
go sense in the right time to the right people from the employees they're set
15:00
wisfaction, their thoughts and engage with them to get insights from them in the
15:05
at the right time on the right scope and to pull those information and put
15:11
them together with all the technical information we are having to make sense of it.
15:16
And that I believe is another major milestone that you know made us as
15:22
well, you know, shape the DEXK category and how text technology should work.
15:28
And you know what in the rest were the automation our automation capabilities,
15:35
our remediation capabilities, our engage capabilities. Why they are so powerful because they
15:41
empowered by the care, which is knowing what is happening in the context.
15:48
If you don't know, give you an example. You want to actually you
15:52
did the transformation and you want to see whether it is working to employees or
15:58
not. So you want to engage with employees and say and check that the
16:03
ones who used it for thirteen minutes are happy or not. But you need
16:08
to know who are the ones who use it for thirty minutes, what happened
16:11
to them, did they succeed, did they connect? And in my opinion,
16:17
if you cannot have that core, that information, you cannot do the
16:22
rest very very well. I will and I will. I'm still convinced that
16:29
the core technology of next thing remains the most powerful and maybe, I will
16:34
say, frankly speaking, I'm not afraid to say, is maybe the only
16:41
the most full, the most comprehensive. I don't know, you know real
16:45
text technology that is that is today in the market. So I'll give you
16:49
a little anecdote to back that up. We were at a prospect at seven
16:52
World Trade Center yesterday and one of the things that we showed them was the
16:57
ability to install a patch in the lab and then immediately go and see if
17:02
that patch is causing problems on any of the other sixteen million end points that
17:07
are also next Think customers, and to be predictive and knowledgeable about what they're
17:11
going to deploy before they deploy it. Are other people deploying this safely?
17:15
So continuous innovation continues to amaze our customers. It's such a beautiful thing to
17:22
see a paedro. We'll go back to a little bit of the time machine
17:26
looking backwards. Next Think has been in the early years, was the only
17:32
fish in the sea, right There weren't many people, if anybody, really
17:36
doing what we did the way we do it. When did you see that
17:41
this was that this market was developing bigger than next Think? Was it the
17:45
evolution of some other competitive products that were trying to keep up, or was
17:48
it the analysts? Was it industry leaders like Dell and Microsoft and HP starting
17:53
to talk about it. What was your realization when you said this is bigger
17:59
than next thing? Yeah, so I would say it's been probably recently,
18:06
so it's probably four or five years ago, and obviously the last twelve months
18:12
is kind of even accelerated. And I think it's been a combination of probably
18:18
the COVID accelerating the need for digital employee experience as employees are working from different
18:26
places using many of these SASS applications and they are not under control of it,
18:33
so obviously has accelerated. So I would say probably the last four or
18:37
five years, I have to say it's for us, it's pretty it's great,
18:40
and I think it's even better for employees working in companies because the more
18:45
people that they are tackling this problem, the better digital experience that employees will
18:51
be able to provide to their employees right, which has been already a pain
18:56
for many years. And there's no one single employee in a large company which
19:00
is not complaining about the experience with it. And it's great that all these
19:04
companies together we can really improve their lives. I would say, just sin
19:11
mentioned before, we had the advantage to really invest in innovation early on,
19:18
so we have really some of these technologies like the ability to measure sentiment computing
19:26
xcelas, the ability to automate, the ability to benchmark that they are pretty
19:32
advanced, and actually there's a lot of investment behind with many years, which
19:38
is I would say it's an important asset for us. But definitely there are
19:45
more and more vendors that they are providing some sort of digital experience, and
19:51
I think I think it's very good. Competition is healthy. That's the way
19:55
we approach it. The next thing, Okay, so pedro is the languages
19:59
and concepts around decks become more ubiquitous and certainly common. Start to see a
20:06
lot of organizations, peers, competitors adopt them principally for marketing purposes. Right.
20:12
I'm interested if you think that this brings with it a danger around distracting
20:18
companies who are seeking real and impactful outcomes from navigating this space and ultimately realizing
20:26
those aims. I mean sure, I mean obviously there is more and more
20:32
buzzwords. I think the terms that have been abused. You know, what
20:38
is an experience? What does it mean digital experience? That's why I think
20:41
it's important to be concrete on the type of problems that we are solving and
20:48
the type of use cases, because otherwise, if we are just focused on
20:52
the I would say, on the slogan or the tagline, I have to
20:57
say that anology people and it departments. They tend to read through the I
21:04
mean between lines, so they are very knowledgeable and technologies. They are very
21:10
pragmatic. So this is not a marketing which people they just buy products based
21:15
on, you know, terminology. They really want to go into the details
21:21
so they really see the benefits, you know, before purchasing this type of
21:25
solutions. But definitely we have to make sure that we are concrete and we
21:30
just not stay on digital employee experience, but defining what that means, defining
21:36
why is important for employees, why it is important for business, what is
21:40
important for it more specifically right, and that's that's what we are doing.
21:48
One of the things that I've really appreciated about Next Think and the way the
21:51
company operates is that it's not just employee experience that you're interested in or that
21:56
we're interested in. We're also interested in the customers, but the customer feedback.
22:00
And one of my earliest memories, even before becoming an employee, when
22:03
I was a customer, is the conversations that you and I would have and
22:07
I think we even had it during my interview when I was coming over to
22:10
join the company, was what were the prospects of employee experience or looking for
22:15
the killer app in mobile. Right, iPhone is lockdown, it's difficult.
22:21
Android is not lockdown at all, and there's too many versions. It can't
22:23
do much with it. But I'm curious what you think about the mobile space
22:27
without becoming an MDM provider. You know, we're doing a few things now
22:30
with Engage on Mobile to actually engage with employees. But what are your thoughts
22:33
about mobility and as end user compute transitions. Yeah, and I think what
22:41
we are observing is mobile devices they come on top of your traditional laptop.
22:51
I would say in most cases, right, I don't think there are many
22:53
desktops out there anymore. It's not really one or another, is actually both.
23:02
In general, I think probably mobility is much more about consuming information,
23:07
while you know people in laptops they are more creating information, creating data,
23:17
creating value. Obviously, we are much more focused from the technology standpoint to
23:23
solve I would say the laptop throughout across all the different you know, Windows
23:30
Mark virtual desktops. It's just because it's such a large business, which is
23:34
much more complex for the type of customers that we have, while in the
23:38
mobility world, it's just simpler so as you said, we definitely provide value
23:45
on you know, how the applications are performing or is the level of experience.
23:51
No mobile devices, but we really see a little bit more business value
23:56
and opportunities on traditional would say laptops, different operating systems, just because people
24:04
when they work, they spend more time in uh, in these interfaces and
24:08
in this computers. So you see what if you run across in your years
24:15
of talking about decks that are that are misperceptions? What is? And maybe
24:19
it's kind of the question is what is? We've covered a lot of what
24:23
decks is? Give a couple of bullets on what decks is not good question.
24:33
We can look at it, I you know, from different level.
24:37
I if we look at it from outcomes or from how the technology, how
24:45
DEX technology work. I would say for me, the most important thing is
24:49
that DEX technology is a technology that can correlate the information that it is observing.
25:06
And I'm using the term observe in a conscious manner because it's not about
25:15
a technology that is monitoring a couple of metrics here and there, even if
25:22
they are millions of metrics without clinking the context and be an alerting on a
25:30
couple of metrics, whether they go beyond a threshold or not. For me,
25:36
it's not a dex technology. It's actually only simplifying what we call log
25:42
log reading. You know, I team is used to have logs coming from
25:47
many places and we can actually put them together in one console and ask the
25:52
same people the IT teams go make sense of the logs. That's exactly what
25:57
we resolve. That next thing is you know what, you don't need to
26:02
look to the locks to million of locks to ten of millions of locks.
26:07
Next thing is capable by observing everything, understanding a baseline, comparing what is
26:15
not actually working immediately, correlating what is working and what is not and understanding
26:23
the route goes and understanding the problem and give you how to resolve it immediately.
26:29
That's for me. Tex tecknoledge, there are another technology that is requiring
26:37
IT teams to actually take some logs and go deepen it to understand what is
26:44
going on. I would say it helps, but it doesn't kill the problem.
26:49
I would say that that next thing we kill the problem. That's for
26:52
me in text technoledge. So this maybe requires both your marketing hair and your
26:57
strategy hat. We talked a lot about how our technology, our platform is
27:04
a necessity for everyone on the planet, every business on the planet, but
27:08
there are so many businesses that have yet to I'll say see the light.
27:15
In my experience, I get on average twenty six emails and countless voicemails a
27:23
day from other software vendors in their own spaces that think their technology is the
27:30
best thing on the planet as well. How do we differentiate ourselves from all
27:33
of the noise of other software vendors that are all trying to sell in their
27:37
space as well. Do you think that there's a risk that we get lost
27:41
in the overall software market as a whole or do we not need to worry
27:45
about that so much. By the way, your example of being hit with
27:48
many emails from software vendor resonates to me very well as chief marketing because I
27:56
totally agree with you and I have the same debate inside the team every single
28:00
day. Doesn't it doesn't matter to send so many emails to people what we
28:10
discovered And for me it was a discovery because I you know, I'm not
28:12
an engineer and had many discussions with Pedro and he opened my eyes, you
28:18
know, and actually even our engineers. That next thing opened my eyes to
28:23
this, which is it teams. As Pedrou said, they are very well
28:29
informed and they research themselves and they they see, they know what is going
28:36
on. They they watch videos, they ask for demos, and they think.
28:41
They take a pride what I discovered in that they they know and they
28:47
decided what works for them. So it's not about hitting people with emails to
28:53
attract their attention. It's to make sure that we explain very well what do
29:03
we solve and how we solve it, what are the use cases, what
29:07
are the problems, and make sure you know, the community can access easily,
29:17
you know, our material and see the product and action. And that's
29:22
you know, I insist on It's not about marketing slogan. It's about seeing
29:26
the product and action, seeing how the product works, seeing what the technology
29:32
is solving, and testing it and using it and seeing and I think if
29:36
we do that well, they will come to us and we will have a
29:41
discussion with them and answering your first question is you know, of course,
29:48
every you know, every company has its own maturity cycle and its urgent problem
29:55
and less urgent problem. So yes, company in the world needs a technology
30:02
like ours. Needs Next Think needs a dex technology. But you know the
30:07
ones who see it, who the one who actually are having that urgent problem.
30:12
They will search and they will compare and they will look. And you
30:17
know, if we explain, as I said, the problems we solve,
30:22
how we solve them, make sure they see how our technology it works.
30:26
No need to send fifty emails or seventy emails and being glost within all the
30:33
software marketing. Okay, Pedro an ultimate question. There's a lot of very
30:38
exciting innovation coming out from next Think at the moment and of rest of this
30:42
year. We covering a lot of it here on the show. Took us
30:47
through the if you would, the overall strategy for next Think at present as
30:52
you see it, and I guess how you see that strategy is fundamentally pushing
30:56
the wider deck space really forward. Yes, So when we look into this
31:04
space and we actually try to understand, if we take the overall problem of
31:11
digital employee experience, where this experience will happen in the future. Right,
31:17
So, one area that we think will be very important, for instance,
31:22
its applications. What are more of the applications? Actually the work is happening
31:27
within the application. So how can we make sure from the employee perspective,
31:33
from the company perspective, that we offer great experience into the applications. Another
31:38
area, for instance, is the collaboration teams. Soon people they use it.
31:44
Another area which we think is going to pick up also is probably virtual
31:48
desktops for instance. Right, there are different providers, so we try to
31:52
focus our strategy and roadmap being very focused on digital employee experience, but trying
31:59
to understand how this translates into you know, the next three five years,
32:05
right, that's also very important for us. We also try to look into
32:10
obviously innovation that is reducing costs, reducing I would say friction with our customers.
32:21
AI for instance, is a great example. We're not using AI just
32:23
for the sake of AI, but we think it could be a great way
32:27
of using our product. Through generative AI, we see that customers they want
32:34
digital employee experience, but they need to automate as a way to reduce costs
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and having a quick impact in ROI. So all these things they get into
32:45
the I would say the strategic team and the management team, and then we
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try to put them in priorities. So there is nothing really revolutionary I think
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it's just doing better what we do what we do today. We've now covered
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a lot of history both in our previous conversation in this one in basically that
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entire journey from that first spark of inspiration that became Next Thing to the present
33:12
day where you're not only the CEO a founder of a company, but a
33:15
company which defined and even invented the space that it leads. Just wondering how
33:22
you'd characterize that journey in a nutshell the way I say this like a book,
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probably would be some sort of Harry Potter book with many different chapters,
33:32
quite different one from another. I think some people they asked me, but
33:37
you don't get bored, really, you know, running the same company for
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you know, fifteen years, And I said, look, it's like ten
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different companies in the last so different milestones, different challenges. As you know,
33:52
I decided to move to the US with my family, which is opening
33:57
up a new chapter s a matter of fat also as a personal level for
34:00
me. So even with the Next Thing, I think it's a book with
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many, many different chapters. Fantastic guys, it's been great to have you
34:08
both on the show. Really really enjoy the conversation for any listeners that want
34:14
to hear more about the origin story of Next Thing. Specifically, I definitely
34:19
encourage you to check out the episode I mentioned at the top that we recorded
34:22
with Pedro and some of the other Next Thing founders. Recorded it a couple
34:27
of years ago. It's called Free Magic Kings, Great Conversation. You'll find
34:30
links to it in the show notes, and I should also plug, as
34:35
I often do, the Deck show dex Hub Mothership. If you want to
34:38
keep up to date with this space and it's continued evolution, be sure to
34:43
check in on that excellent site on a regular basis. You'll also find a
34:47
full free range of deck certifications, which we know hundreds of people are getting
34:53
a lot of value out of. Just really remains for me to say.
34:58
You've seen Pedro, thanks so much for coming on the show, being an
35:00
absolute pleasure. To make sure that you never miss an episode, Subscribe to
35:07
the show in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player, and
35:10
if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, make sure to leave a rating of the
35:15
show. Just tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. If
35:19
you'd like to learn more about how Next Thing can help me improve your digital
35:22
employee experience. Head over to nextthink dot com. Thank you so much for
35:25
listening. Until next time.