Latest / Voddie Baucham Sermons / Voddie Baucham - TS&TT Evangelicalism's Looming Catastrophe (Part 1) Where Are The Fault Lines

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Voddie Baucham - TS&TT Evangelicalism's Looming Catastrophe (Part 1) Where Are The Fault Lines · Voddie Baucham Sermons

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to The Sword in the Trowel, a podcast of
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  Speaker 1: Founders Ministries. Founders Ministries exists for the recovery of the
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  Speaker 1: gospel and the reformation of churches. I'm Jared Longshore.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm Tom Askell.
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  Speaker 1: And we have the Votibafa.
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  Speaker 3: That's right.
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  Speaker 1: In studio with us.
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  Speaker 2: So delighted to have you here with us, brother. Thank you. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Delighted to be here. Yeah, man.
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  Speaker 3: It's good to have you all the way from Lusaka, Zambia.
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  Speaker 3: And Votie's joining us for the last couple of days
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  Speaker 3: and tonight. for a special Institute of Public Theology event.
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  Speaker 3: And so you preached yesterday morning at Grace Baptist Church.
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  Speaker 3: Had a wonderful time there last night. We kind of
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  Speaker 3: caught up on what's been going on in your life
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  Speaker 3: the last year.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And the providence of God. That was a wonderful opportunity
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  Speaker 3: just to hear you kind of piece things together with
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  Speaker 3: a timeline. And I think that's available. Isn't that conversation
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  Speaker 3: going to be available on the IOPT Facebook page and
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  Speaker 3: also in the armory? So thanks for that. And tonight
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  Speaker 3: you'll be speaking again. We've got a pastor's conference today.
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  Speaker 3: You'll be talking to a bunch of guys. So, man,
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  Speaker 3: welcome to Southwest Florida.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. I guess before we get into it, just a
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  Speaker 1: heads up that we do have a conference coming up,
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  Speaker 1: Militant and Triumphant, January down here in Southwest Florida. Votie
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  Speaker 1: will be preaching. You'll be preaching. I'll be preaching. Conrad
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  Speaker 1: and Bayway will be preaching. James Coates will be preaching.
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  Speaker 1: Travis Allen will be preaching. Lots of folks going to
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  Speaker 1: be here. We'd love for you to come. You can
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  Speaker 1: register at founders.org.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and Vody will also be teaching the third course
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  Speaker 3: that we are offering in the Institute of Public Theology
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  Speaker 3: on cultural apologetics. So that'll be right before the Founders Conference.
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  Speaker 3: So you actually can register for that course. The registrations
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  Speaker 3: are open for IOPT. And if you want to take
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  Speaker 3: that course, you need to get in early on that.
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  Speaker 3: And so you can come for the course, stay for
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  Speaker 3: the conference. It'll be a wonderful opportunity to really be fed.
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  Speaker 2: And challenge.
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  Speaker 3: We have a neat opportunity going on right now, too.
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  Speaker 3: We have a donor who has said he will match
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  Speaker 3: all the gifts given to IOPT through the end of
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  Speaker 3: the year. So if God has put you in a
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  Speaker 3: position where you can contribute, we would love to have
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  Speaker 3: that help. We need that help. And we trust the
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  Speaker 3: Lord to guide you in that. You want more information,
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  Speaker 3: just contact us. We'll be glad to tell you about it.
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  Speaker 1: Well, Vody, you've written the book Fault Lines, the Social
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  Speaker 1: Justice Movement and Evangelicalism's Looming Catastrophe. We've already spoken on
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  Speaker 1: this podcast about your book. And so a lot of
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  Speaker 1: people already know about it. And if you have not
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  Speaker 1: yet purchased a copy and read through it, then certainly
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  Speaker 1: do that quick, fast and in a hurry. You're delighted
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  Speaker 1: with the way it's been rolled out. God has clearly
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  Speaker 1: blessed the book. Um, how are things at this juncture,
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  Speaker 1: however many weeks or months we are now downstream from
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  Speaker 1: having the book published?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, things are better than we could ever have anticipated.
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  Speaker 4: And like we talked about last night, you know, we
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  Speaker 4: had this plan for the launch of the book and
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  Speaker 4: we had the launch team and pre-orders were going well. And,
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  Speaker 4: you know, I was scheduled to, to head out on this,
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  Speaker 4: you know, this, this tour to, uh, promote the book. And, and, um,
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  Speaker 4: and then of course, you know, my, my heart fails
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  Speaker 4: and end up with a couple of heart surgeries and
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  Speaker 4: never got to get out, um, and, and do that promotion.
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  Speaker 4: And yet, you know, um, so it's, it's been doing well. It,
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  Speaker 4: it really seems to have, um, to have struck a nerve,
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  Speaker 4: you know, and, um, I'm excited about that, you know,
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  Speaker 4: both in terms of the positive response that it's received
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  Speaker 4: and also the negative response that it's received. I think, um,
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  Speaker 4: you know, you can learn as much, uh, about an idea, um, in,
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  Speaker 4: in terms of who's opposed to it, um, as you
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  Speaker 4: can in terms of who's in favor of it, as
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  Speaker 4: well as those who are silent about it.
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  Speaker 1: As the, um, as a side note, you know, we
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  Speaker 1: produced the film by what standard I'm thinking you go
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  Speaker 1: after this whole critical social justice stuff. And then, you know,
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  Speaker 1: when we released the film, you collapse, nearly die. And
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  Speaker 1: then you write the book fault lines when it's released.
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  Speaker 1: You nearly die.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I'm feeling a little uncomfortable around here.
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  Speaker 2: I'll be honest. Don't mess with that. Don't mess with
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  Speaker 2: whatever demon.
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  Speaker 1: Is behind social justice stuff because that is some serious
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  Speaker 1: spiritual warfare manifesting itself.
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  Speaker 2: That's interesting.
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  Speaker 1: No joke. I'm not even kidding, man. Y'all were talking
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  Speaker 1: last night and I was like, yeah, this is serious.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
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  Speaker 3: Well, it's been interesting to see the response. And of course, man,
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  Speaker 3: I'm so grateful for the positive responses from all kinds
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  Speaker 3: of sectors. You know, people that, I mean, normally aren't
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  Speaker 3: in our circles, and yet they're true evangelical Christians, and
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  Speaker 3: they're grateful for this.
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  Speaker 2: And so, I mean, you were telling us about Chuck.
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  Speaker 3: Swindoll's wonderful appreciation of the book, you know, and man,
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  Speaker 3: thank God for that. And I've heard from people that
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  Speaker 3: are in the broader evangelical world, and they're not reformed, uh,
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  Speaker 3: and yet they're wonderful, godly Christians and they are praising
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  Speaker 3: God for.
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  Speaker 2: The book as well. So there's been a good response.
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  Speaker 3: It's a national bestseller, which it became very quickly after
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  Speaker 3: its release. And you don't have the exact numbers now.
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  Speaker 4: But it's still, it's still doing, it's still doing well.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And, and we've been, we, we carry it here at
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  Speaker 3: founders and I don't know how.
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  Speaker 2: Many, a lot of places are not carrying it by
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  Speaker 2: the way. Isn't that crazy?
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  Speaker 4: Um, you know, I went in, we were still in Jacksonville. Um,
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  Speaker 4: you know, I, was, you know, in the rehab program
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  Speaker 4: and doing well, we're getting close to getting out of there.
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  Speaker 4: And I just thought, you know, it'd be great if
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  Speaker 4: we could go into a Barnes and Noble and, you know,
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  Speaker 4: take the, take the family in there and stand by
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  Speaker 4: the book, you know, on the shelf and, you know,
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  Speaker 4: take pictures or whatever. And we go into Barnes and
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  Speaker 4: Noble and, you know, I'm looking around, I'm looking at
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  Speaker 4: the shelves, I'm looking at the bestsellers, I'm looking at
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  Speaker 4: books that are behind us on the bestsellers list and
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  Speaker 4: they're all out here and we're not there. And then
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  Speaker 4: I go to the, you know, religion section and I
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  Speaker 4: look at where it's supposed to be and it's not there.
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  Speaker 4: And so I go to the counter and I ask him,
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  Speaker 4: you know, hey, do you have, you know, this book,
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  Speaker 4: you know, Fault Lines? And They look in the computer
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  Speaker 4: and they say, it says we have one. And it
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  Speaker 4: was back in the back. They had to go back
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  Speaker 4: in the back, you know, to get the book. And,
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  Speaker 4: you know, so I contacted the publisher and I'm like,
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  Speaker 4: you know, what's the deal, man? There are books that
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  Speaker 4: are behind us on the bestsellers list that are out
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  Speaker 4: there on, you know, bestsellers. And, you know, so and
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  Speaker 4: that was the case in many places. And there are
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  Speaker 4: still a lot of places. There are Christian bookstores. that
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  Speaker 4: have decided not to carry the book. Um, well, you know,
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  Speaker 4: Lifeway doesn't really have their brick and mortar stores anymore,
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  Speaker 4: but at the convention, um, Lifeway didn't have it in their,
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  Speaker 4: in their bookstore. So, uh, again, all of that just
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  Speaker 4: points to, um, God's providence and the way that, you know,
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  Speaker 4: this thing has, has, uh, has traveled in spite of
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  Speaker 4: the fact that, um, most of the ways that you
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  Speaker 4: would promote a book have been, have been closed. Um, So,
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  Speaker 4: you know, just couldn't be more pleased. And so I'm
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  Speaker 4: telling people, go to your bookstore and ask for it
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  Speaker 4: and ask them to carry it.
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  Speaker 1: You know, we were reading through fault lines as elders
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  Speaker 1: here at Grace and just worked through the introduction or
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  Speaker 1: first chapter. I think it's the introduction. And you name names, like,
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  Speaker 1: right off the bat. And you draw the fault line
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  Speaker 1: and then you name the names.
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  Speaker 2: And.
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  Speaker 1: I remember saying, you say, why is it that these
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  Speaker 1: men are on this side of the fault line and
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  Speaker 1: these other organizations are on the other side of the
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  Speaker 1: fault line?
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  Speaker 2: And I.
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  Speaker 1: Thought, I mean, wow, like you named the names. And
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  Speaker 1: that's so real. Like we're sensing the realness of that
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  Speaker 1: in the evangelical world right now. And you can read
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  Speaker 1: the book to find the names. We mentioned the names.
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  Speaker 1: It's not like a secret now. It's in print. And
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  Speaker 1: we talked about it, but it was clarifying again to say, yes,
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  Speaker 1: this this divide really is there. And it was interesting
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  Speaker 1: to me that it came from you like you're in Zambia.
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  Speaker 1: You've been in Zambia for many years now.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, you you're certainly well known evangelical. You've been
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  Speaker 1: here in the States and you're still here.
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  Speaker 5: But.
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  Speaker 1: It was interesting that it came from you. Like, I
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  Speaker 1: almost feel like y'all don't want to say it. Like
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  Speaker 1: nobody wants to say it over there. I'm over in Zambia.
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  Speaker 1: Let me give y'all some outside perspective.
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  Speaker 2: There it is.
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  Speaker 1: Like, boom, you actually put the names in print. Why
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  Speaker 1: is it, you know, as you've, as I'm still trying
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  Speaker 1: to process, why is it that we have certain names
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  Speaker 1: on this right side and then we have the other
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  Speaker 1: on the other side?
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  Speaker 4: You know, I titled the book Fault Lines because as
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  Speaker 4: I looked at this, the way I saw it was
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  Speaker 4: that there is this fault, and there are people on
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  Speaker 4: either side of this fault. And we know fault lines
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  Speaker 4: are where earthquakes take place, right? And this fault was shifting.
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  Speaker 4: This fault was moving. And the divide was becoming clearer.
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  Speaker 4: And I think the divide has become clearer now. even
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  Speaker 4: since the book has come out. And I just didn't
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  Speaker 4: think that it would be helpful for me to not
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  Speaker 4: be open and honest about what I was talking about
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  Speaker 4: or about who I was talking about. I tried to
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  Speaker 4: be as charitable as I could and not ascribe motives,
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  Speaker 4: but just paint a picture of what anybody who's watching
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  Speaker 4: was actually seeing. Hmm.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, here it is.
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  Speaker 3: The nature of the coming catastrophe. Why are people in
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  Speaker 3: groups like the BDN Ubele, Tim Keller, Russell Moore, the
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  Speaker 3: Southern Baptist Convention, Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, Nine Marks,
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  Speaker 3: and Gospel Coalition together for the gospel being identified with
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  Speaker 3: critical social justice on one hand side of the fault.
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  Speaker 3: And then you list others, MacArthur, Owen Strayen, Doug Wilson, Sproul,
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  Speaker 3: on the other side.
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  Speaker 5: And?
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  Speaker 2: And Tom Askell.
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  Speaker 1: And Tom Askell.
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  Speaker 2: That's right. I had to pay him to put me
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  Speaker 2: in there, but he did it. He did it. Or
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  Speaker 2: to pay me to not put you. Yeah. Yes, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: there it is, man.
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  Speaker 3: You look at those names 10 years ago, 15 years ago.
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  Speaker 2: And those are all of our friends.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Those are all people that we've been doing conferences with
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  Speaker 4: or we used to do conferences with a decade ago.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: This is crazy, I'll be honest.
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  Speaker 2: It is.
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  Speaker 1: It's crazy. When I read it with the elders, I
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  Speaker 1: said– Wow. And I would like I would it would
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  Speaker 1: be helpful. And you might not have this. I'm not
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  Speaker 1: I'm not assuming you do have an answer. Maybe we do.
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  Speaker 1: It'd be helpful to know what in the world when
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  Speaker 1: you have a fault line and people end up where
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  Speaker 1: they do. Why? Mark Dever, Jonathan Lehman, you know, Al Mohler,
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  Speaker 1: Ali SBC over here, John.
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  Speaker 2: MacArthur, R.C.
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  Speaker 1: Sproul, Doug Wilson, Tom Askell. Can somebody help me? Like,
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  Speaker 1: why did that, you know, what are the, what are
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  Speaker 1: the doctrinal presuppositions that cause people to shake down on
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  Speaker 1: the sides they did?
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  Speaker 4: You know, later on in the book, um, I identify what,
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  Speaker 4: what I believe to be the cause of a lot
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  Speaker 4: of it. And it's not doctrine. I believe a cause,
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  Speaker 4: the cause of a lot of it is relationships. Um,
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  Speaker 4: in fact, and I try to be clear about the
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  Speaker 4: fact that, you know, not everybody who's identified on that
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  Speaker 4: side of the fault line on the critical social justice
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  Speaker 4: side of the fault line is there because they hold
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  Speaker 4: to the ideology. In fact, a lot of those individuals
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  Speaker 4: are opposed to the, to the ideology. They're not opposed
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  Speaker 4: to it publicly. They're not opposed to it openly, but
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  Speaker 4: they're opposed to the ideology, but they have invested for
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  Speaker 4: the last 10, 20 years in, in people who are
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  Speaker 4: open about promoting the ideology. And so I think for
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  Speaker 4: a lot of these guys and a lot of these entities,
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  Speaker 4: their silence is more a product of their desire to
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  Speaker 4: hold on to relationships than it is evidence of them
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  Speaker 4: holding to critical social justice ideology.
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  Speaker 1: And I have to believe that a lot of those guys.
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  Speaker 1: Once they see that this is heresy driving this, right?
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  Speaker 1: This is an ethical outworking of a practical outworking of
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  Speaker 1: a pagan religion that they will say, hey, I can't
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  Speaker 1: go that far. I can't. So it makes me think
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  Speaker 1: that either it hasn't dawned on them yet or they're suspicious,
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  Speaker 1: but they haven't fully realized where.
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  Speaker 2: It's coming from. It's dawned on them. It's dawned on them.
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  Speaker 1: Well, then they have to.
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  Speaker 2: It's dawned on them.
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  Speaker 5: And....
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  Speaker 4: You know, we don't want to violate any confidence here,
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  Speaker 4: but you and I have had conversations about individuals who
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  Speaker 4: have said in private that they get this, that they
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  Speaker 4: see this, but that they don't want to offend. In
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  Speaker 4: many instances, they don't want to offend their black brothers
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  Speaker 4: and sisters who see this differently than they do, which
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  Speaker 4: is incredibly racist.
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  Speaker 2: Condescending.
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  Speaker 4: It's condescending, right? You know, one of the things that
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  Speaker 4: I appreciate about, and again, I write about this as well.
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  Speaker 4: I appreciate the fact that, for example, when I came
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  Speaker 4: out as Calvinist, that brothers in the SBC... basically said,
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  Speaker 4: you know, Ichabod, it.
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  Speaker 5: Don't matter if you're black, it don't matter if you're black,
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  Speaker 5: you know, we, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're anathema, you know, um,
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  Speaker 5: and being anathematized, um, to me was an, was an.
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  Speaker 2: Act of respect. They treated me like a brother.
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  Speaker 4: And what a lot of these guys are doing right
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  Speaker 4: now is they're not treating people like brothers. They're walking
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  Speaker 4: around on eggshells, and they refuse to call people out
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  Speaker 4: because of this. Well, anyway, I'll let them say what
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  Speaker 4: it is, but that's not treating people like brothers. If
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  Speaker 4: you actually have disagreements, but you hold back on those
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  Speaker 4: disagreements and you don't hold people accountable because of the
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  Speaker 4: color of their skin, then you're not treating them like equals.
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  Speaker 5: Right.
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  Speaker 2: I would add a layer to this.
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  Speaker 1: I still think there is. I think along with that,
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  Speaker 1: that's certainly huge and probably the primary, especially with a
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  Speaker 1: number of the people. I'm sure there's individual differences among
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  Speaker 1: the people that are on the wrong side of the
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  Speaker 1: fault line. But I wonder about a truncated vision of
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  Speaker 1: the truth claims of Christ, of a shrinking back to
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  Speaker 1: a churchy entity rather than a Christianity that says, well,
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  Speaker 1: that's a political thing. It's outside my purview. As a pastor,
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  Speaker 1: I shouldn't be involved in that, the trivializing of the
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  Speaker 1: kingdom of God idea. So, hey, that guy wants to
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  Speaker 1: play that. If it's real clear biblical ethic inside the
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  Speaker 1: church community, then I'm on it. But that's more, it's
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  Speaker 1: a political, it's a sociological thing. It's a philosophical thing
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  Speaker 1: that we can agree to disagree. I think that that's
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  Speaker 1: a problem as well. Another problem of why people aren't
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  Speaker 1: addressing it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it is. But it's becoming more and more obvious.
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  Speaker 4: You know, you've got people who over the last decade
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  Speaker 4: or so have been very open about the fact that
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  Speaker 4: many Christians have become too political. Open about the fact
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  Speaker 4: that they're against this sort of transformational approach to Christianity.
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  Speaker 4: And yet, the critical social justice movement is inherently political.
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  Speaker 4: And these same guys haven't said, listen, you guys are
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  Speaker 4: too political. The critical social justice movement is inherently transformational, right?
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  Speaker 4: But these same guys who have spoken out against that
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  Speaker 4: are not speaking out against this manifestation of it. And
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  Speaker 4: this hypocrisy is becoming more and more apparent. And at
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  Speaker 4: the root of this hypocrisy is the fear of being
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  Speaker 4: called racist or the fear of throwing away investments over
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  Speaker 4: the last couple of decades in people. And I think
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  Speaker 4: it's sad. I agree with you.
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  Speaker 3: It's one of the most difficult things for me in
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  Speaker 3: getting my mind around this and what I finally did
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  Speaker 3: and talking to a lot of people. You know, people
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  Speaker 3: smarter than I am, more experienced than I have and
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  Speaker 3: I've trusted for years is, you know, you keep asking them,
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: if you see that this is dangerous, and some would
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: say they see it and some would say, well, it's
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: not as dangerous.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: It's a fad.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: It's going to pass in two years, you know, if
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: I had that said to me. But whenever you begin
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: to see it, how can you not speak out on it?
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: And here's what I've concluded. I don't know. I put
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: a bag over everybody's head after a while and just
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: started looking at what they're saying, what they're doing, what
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: they're not doing, what they're not saying. And when you
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: pull the bags up, you're just disappointed. I mean, you
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: feel betrayed almost by these guys. But I've concluded that
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: there's a bunch of guys that just don't have the
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: kind of biblical courage that is needed to say what
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: must be said if we're going to be faithful to Christ.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: to do what must be done if we're going to
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: be faithful to Christ. And they think somehow they can maneuver, manipulate,
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: and kind of keep things together and hold on both
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: to the relationships and to the truth. And it just
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: can't be done. And the truth is being hammered, and
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: the gospel is being clouded over for the sake of, well,
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: you know, we're all brothers and give time, give space.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: In my mind, it's like we've got a house on fire,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: and this is not the time for negotiation. This is
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: the time for sounding the alarms. grabbing the buckets, and
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: doing what we've got to do to fight this thing. And, man,
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: men we've counted on aren't doing it.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: And that's the thing with the fault line is, like
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: you say, you're not going to be able to do that.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: You're not going to be able to maneuver it. So
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: if you're on the wrong side of the fault line,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: and as I'm looking at the book, I was wondering
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: which side is the right side and the wrong side,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: and Votie's name's on the right side. So I'm saying
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: that's the good side of the fault line over there
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: if you're on Votie Bauckham's side. And if you're on
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: the other side, clearly the light gray must be the
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: wrong side. But if you're on the wrong side of
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: this fault line, but you're a good guy, if you're
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: on the wrong side of this fault line, but you
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: actually are an Orthodox Christian, and for whatever reason, whether
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: you don't have the courage or you don't have the worldview,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: you're not standing.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Up to the.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: I'm saying, okay, well, you're going to come over at
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: some point. That's what fault lines do. It's going to separate.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: And eventually, you know, you're going to be like a
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: John Piper, farewell, Rob Bell. You're going to have to
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: do this.
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: You're going to have to do that at some point.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: So I'm thinking as this plays out, that's the thing.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Like you're going, sadly, you're going to lose some people
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: and they will, they will straight in the heresy.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: And that's the looming catastrophe part of the title of
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: the subtitle. Yeah. We are going to lose some people. Yeah.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: We've already lost some people. Yeah.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: But then we have a trouble of, I think it's
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: like a lapsy controversy thing. Like, what are you going
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: to do with the leaders that then say, Hey, we,
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: we missed this for worldview or for courage. We missed this.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: How do we get guys to come back on the
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: right side when the inevitable comes, at least from our
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: vantage point? It's inevitable. You're not going to be able
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: to actually stay over there.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: That's the question, man.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: And I'm interested in what both your brothers have to
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: say about that. And my own thinking on it is this.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: I want them back.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, we need them.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: I've looked some of these guys in the eye and said,
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: we need you in this fight.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: We need you at your best. Please come help us.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: And they haven't. And evidently they're not going to.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: But God willing, one point, some point, they're going to see, yeah, okay,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: we can't stay silent. And when they come back, praise God,
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: I want them back. But they failed as leaders. You
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: don't have a position of leadership and fail to the
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: destruction of the people who are following you and then say, oops, okay,
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: now I'm going to lead over here. I think you
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: just need to kind of confess your sin, acknowledge your failure,
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: and Be faithful in whatever sphere you've got, but don't
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: expect people to keep following you.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: You've given that up. That's not for you. Yeah. I
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: I mean, I really honestly don't know. I agree with
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: you in that I hope that at some point, you know,
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: the dam breaks. At some point, you know, all of this.
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: shakes out the way that we all hope it will
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: and that eventually some of this becomes a bridge too far.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: What's after that? I don't know.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: I hear from too many pastors, too many churches. Yesterday,
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: we had people from churches all over and some that
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: came from long distances to be here, to hear you
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: be here for the day. And with tears, weeping, 20-year members,
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: elders in churches saying, this stuff has come in and
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: I'm the only elder that's trying to stand against it.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: We've had to leave our church after 25 years. My
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: wife has this wonderful ministry to women. And how many
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: more churches have to be destroyed by this? When the
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: watchmen on the wall that we have trusted for years
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: keep saying, you know, it's not that bad.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: It's a fad. I just, I don't know. It's a boogeyman. Yeah, boogeyman.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: It's a boogeyman.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: And I love these guys, but we can't follow them.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: I can't commend them.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering if one of the things to do, if
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: you're on the right side of the fault line, is
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: just begin to build and form a new coalition, you know,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: like a new gospel coalition. I mean, you mentioned you
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: were the gospel coalition, and then you wrote what you wrote,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: and then you get canceled from that. But trying to
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: actually say, Um, we care about, we actually care about law.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: So when you're watching, you know, we were looking at
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Jamar Tisby earlier and as Jamar is working out his
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: ethic hard, he's working out an ethic. Um, the response
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: is not to say, well, we don't want to work
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: out an ethic. You shouldn't be working out an ethic.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like, no, we want to work out
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: an ethic, but yours isn't biblical. We want to work
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: out the biblical ethic. We do care. We also like
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Abraham Kuyper. And so here is here's the vision. Here's
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: a banner being raised for those who are clearly on
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: the right side of this fault line. Here's a banner
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: being raised because people are saying, well, who am I
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: supposed to trust? Well, you certainly are only are supposed
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: to trust people that are on the right side of
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: this fault line. And then in addition to that, you
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: want to trust people that can kind of see the
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: times to say, yeah, this is why we got here.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of guys went woke because there
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: was something missing. There was like, I want to actually
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: love my neighbor. And then they somehow bought into a
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: pagan law.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: This is what it means.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they bought into a pagan law. But hey, shame
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: on those who weren't actually loving neighbor well, who were
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: allowing these ideologies and this cultural decay to happen that
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: because there wasn't an answer. So I think we still
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: need that answer. And it's almost like, regardless of what
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: happens with the leaders that are on the wrong side,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: let's let the new leaders just build, develop, write statement
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: of affirmations and denials, doctrine, practice, institutions, organizations. Let's just go.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: And then whoever comes, comes.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: We'll just, that way they have something built for them.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: And it won't just be when you cross over the
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: fault line to the good side, you're just against all
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: the bad stuff. It's like, well, what are we for?
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: I think we just need to keep running in that direction.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I think we are and need to encourage more and
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: more people to.
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: And one of the reasons I think that's important is
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: because the other side has very effectively changed the rules
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: of the game.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is this.
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: When you have discussions with people, they're saying, okay, fine,
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: you don't like the critical social justice movement.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: But what's your answer to racial injustice?
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: We can't allow it to be framed like that because
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: the very concept of racial injustice basically assumes their definitions
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: because racial injustice means disparities, right? So if you're saying
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: that I have to have an answer for ending disparities,
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: you're saying that the only way that I can play
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: is if I accept the rules as you've laid them down.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: And what I'm saying is I reject your category. I
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: reject the idea that, you know, discrepancies between groups.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Of people is, you know, sort of inherently evil. That
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: is inherently evil. That's absolutely ridiculous.
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: So I think, you know, to your point of, you know,
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: Having statements and being clear and defining terms. Again, it's
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: one of the things that I try to do in
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: the book is define terms so that people don't get
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: caught in these Kafka traps that are being set. And
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: because of that, I mean, you're absolutely right. The only
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: way out of this is for us to be clear
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: and define terms and make sure that people understand exactly
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: what we're saying and exactly what we're not saying.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: There's three things, I think, that have to be recovered,
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: and we've been trying to do this. One is a
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: biblical metaphysic. We need to get back to the reality
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: that this is God's world. He's created it.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Genesis 1-1.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's foundational. Second, we've touched on it here,
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: law and gospel. God has spoken about his world, the
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: rules of his world, the rules of his house, his church,
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: and for his creatures who bear his image. And the
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: third is the lordship of Christ, that Christ has all
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: authority in heaven and on earth, and that all other
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: authority has been delegated by him for him. If we
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: can recover those three things and start thinking biblically in
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: those three areas, I think the foundation will emerge on
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: which we must build to do exactly what you're describing.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: It has to be done.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Somebody pass an offering plate. Let's sing Doxology.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: This is why you wrote the book. This is why
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: we started the Institute of Public Theology. This is why
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: we've been trying to hammer the things we've been hammering
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: the last few years at Founders Ministries. And by God's grace,
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: he's empowering us and strengthening us to keep moving forward.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to the next several years to seeing
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: how God will continue to lead.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: And this conversation is important because, you know, we talked
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: about this earlier. This is not just a race thing.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: And so the people that are going to be against wokeness,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: But then even the guys that are against wokeness and
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: characterize it as merely as a race thing. Well, you know,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: you're totally missing the point. And so we do need
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: this bigger conversation we've just had because we're dealing with a...
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: It feels like a Geneva moment to me. I mean,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: it feels... like a historic moment. I know everybody always
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: thinks they're in one, but it certainly, I mean, look
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: at what's happening in our culture. Look at the chaos
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: that is going on around us. And so what's happening
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: in this evangelical fault line is mapping on, everybody knows,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: it's mapping on to what's happening in our culture. And
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: the answer, I think, is deep. It's like to the
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: law and the prophets. It's much deeper than just some superficial,
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: if we just get our guy into the White House,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: if we just get our right guy in the SBC.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, like the Ed Litton thing. Here's the deal.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Should Ed Litton be removed from SBC? Hands down. Piece
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: of cake. There are hundreds of people that are ready
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: to take his place who have the exact same presuppositions
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: he does. And we need to realize that. An exchange
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: of bureaucrats does not a reformation make. And we must
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: go deeper if we're actually going to deal with this
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: very fault line.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: That we're facing.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Let's continue this conversation. Let's wrap this one up and
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: have another one.
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: But before we do that, I just want to go
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: back to a point that you were making, Jared, this
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: idea of the significance of this moment, the magnitude of
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: this moment. I think that's another fault line. One of
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: the things that I'm seeing is that a way to
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: identify where people are on this, at least one way,
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: is the people who say that this is an historic
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: moment and the other people who say it's a fad.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: It's a fad. Yeah, I agree.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Putting their mask on to go anywhere, to buy anything.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: It's just a fad.
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: And I think what a lot of people are doing,
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: and I think a lot of those people who get
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: this and who, for the sake of relationships, have tried
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: to play both sides against the middle. One of the
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: ways that they're doing that is by downplaying it and saying, no,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: this is just a fad. And those guys over there
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: who are railing against it, you know, they're overreacting.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: That's right. Extremists.
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I agree with man.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: It's whistling in the dark and they're hoping that it's
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: not true.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Well, this has been a great conversation.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: Hey, we want to give away an autographed copy of
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: fault lines.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: So if you will.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: Follow founders ministries and IOPT and Bodie Bauckham ministries on
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: social media, and share this episode, then we will enter
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: you in a drawing, and we'll select somebody to send
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: an autographed copy of Fault Lines to. Bodie, thanks for
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: being with us, and let's have another conversation to talk
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: about where to from here.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Part two.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what do we do?