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EP28: Part Two: Riding It with Confidence · Rittener Reflections

• Karen Murphy (00:00) So what I'm seeing that's moving too slow is thinking. We have a lot of really good trade analysts out there in the marketplace that know how to keep the trains rolling or the ships moving or the planes full of stuff. but it's thinking beyond the day-to-day that is moving too But what's moving too fast, we talked about it earlier, is the transactions, the actual work that has to be done to export something or import something. is way too fast. That's kind of my vision or view of what's going on right now strategy is too slow and complexity in the transactions and the way we manage the transactions is really really fast and no one has any time to let you slow down those transactions either. Jr (01:17) And you just heard from Karen, strategy is moving too slow and the work is moving too fast. Attention every trade leader is feeling right now. Welcome back to Written Reflections. In part one of this episode, we explored how the expectations of the trade profession are shifting and why trade is being asked to do more inside of global companies. Today, we turn to what that means in practice. What a high performing trade function looks like in 2026. What leaders should prioritize when they hire and how teams build the clarity, resilience and strategic influence this moment demands. Bruce Jackson and Karen Murphy rejoined me as we move from the forces shaping the profession to the capabilities and mindsets that define what good looks like today. Karen and Bruce, welcome back. Both of you have led trade organizations across multiple companies and sectors in your careers. So let's start there. In this new world of trade, what does a high performing trade organization look like today? Bruce Jackson (02:43) Oh, this is a interesting topic for me. Some years ago, I know if I told you guys, I may have in the past, but some years ago in a prior and a prior employer, I had the opportunity to become a high performance culture facilitator. went through a whole year long education around that. I don't want to say training because it's all about mindset and learning how to to empathize and also be and be vulnerable yourself to try to have built engagement. And I went around, you know, running these sessions with a partner at different sites and you're working with non-trade people. It's a cross-section of the corporate enterprise. And for me, the takeaway from that where there are a couple of key words and they happen to all kind of start with the letter C, kind of weird, but. If I think of a high performing trade function today, I'm thinking about communication because nine times out of 10, the problem, the issue comes down to communication when there's an issue. And this doesn't just apply to trade, it applies in other ⁓ areas of life. And then to stay curious, curiosity, why if someone's coming and yelling at you at a Friday afternoon about a shipment, why? you what's behind that? To understand that, stay curious, don't jump to conclusions. And then the underpinning of, well, you mentioned already culture, culture is kind of the under thing. You have to have a way to understand where your culture is. If you're company, well, we don't have a corporate culture. Well, yeah, you do. You just don't recognize it. ⁓ There is always a culture and you have to look at how that is. And depending on your organization, if you're a small family run business versus a large corporate enterprise built by acquisition with lots of companies coming from different environments. You have to kind of navigate that and figure out what's best way. But as a trade team, you want to be open, you want to be curious, try to avoid judgment. Because judgment, you know, I know we want to feel that. There are times when as trade professionals, we want to let them stick the knife for the... the fork in the light socket ⁓ because they're like, they're not listening to me. Let them experience this and then they'll go, ⁓ yeah, but we have to be constructive here. We don't want someone hurting themselves one way or the other. Those are the things I would say is communications. Number one, curiosity and just trying to build a cohesive culture. Jr (05:13) Excellent. Well put. Karen Murphy (05:15) Can you repeat the question again? Jr (05:16) You know the answer this, Karen. What does a high performing trade function look like today? Karen Murphy (05:20) if I see one, I'll let you know. But I think part of it is exactly what Bruce said. I think we're at a, what's the word, ⁓ inflection point? Yeah, for. Jr (05:22) you point. Karen Murphy (05:35) trade and the actual function. They've always been kind of behind the scenes. Lean, mean, keep the lights on is what's expected. And now we're being, you the teams are being asked to do things that are way outside a lot of the skill sets of the teams. so I think we, we really need to figure out, I think companies, no matter what size has to figure out what their investment is in the function, what the risk is if they don't, or what the benefits are when they do, and then try to work with the folks you have first and see if they're motivated and ready to do things differently. And then after that, then you start looking externally. But I'm really finding that may or may not be the right way to go. Even if you pull somebody from supply chain or from your IT department or from finance and teaching them the trade ⁓ regulations or those kinds of things is pretty easy. But some of these other skills that we really need in a higher functioning strategic thinking team might exist in other employees within the company. But then you have to really advertise and advocate how cool it is to be Jr (06:52) Mm-hmm. Karen Murphy (07:00) and trade. So I think we should get all those t-shirts that say terrified and walk around with them or know, export controls are my friend. There was someone at the conference in San Antonio that wore a sandwich board that said something about bonds are my friend, know, so customs bonds. So, you know, I think there's things like that, but it's really about finding the right people that can work together and Jr (07:01) You Ha ha ha ha ha. Bruce Jackson (07:06) Hahaha! Karen Murphy (07:27) and create the value for the company. Jr (07:30) Yeah, no, that's so true, Karen. And, you know, kind of on that theme, you know, if you're a leader in a company and you're responsible to hire, what do you prioritize? What is it you're looking for today? Karen Murphy (07:42) I just, so I help out with that activity where I'm working right now and my priority is trying to figure out from the candidates who are interested in a position, what are the things they're most proud of in their career? And then what were some missed opportunities and how would they go back and maybe get those opportunities or just let it go? How do they communicate? Have they communicated? maybe some good news, maybe some bad news to the C-suite before. Can they handle that? I don't really care. Do they know what section 744 of the EAR is or, you know, yeah, Code of Federal Regulations, Chapter 49? I don't care. They wouldn't be applying, most folks wouldn't be applying for the job if they didn't have the technical. So I focus on everything on the other side and boy, some of the candidates they're quite surprised. So Bruce, how about you? What do you focus? Bruce Jackson (08:43) Yeah, so this is an interesting topic for me as well because and I want to step back for just a moment into the prior question too because something occurred to me that I think I've observed in particularly from all my consulting days and that is that I'm sure Karen you and Jeff as well you've met trade professionals who love it when there's a consent agreement or some other government order that you have to have a program. because then the compliance team feels like, they can just use coercion, do it, because I've got big bad government right behind me, you have to do this. They like operating in that environment because they don't, maybe they don't feel they can get the result that they want without it. And eventually that consent agreement is gonna go away. And then what happens in some organizations? trade is they don't start laying people off. start, you they don't have to do this anymore. Right. Whereas if you have to do this without. big bad government behind you or whatever, then you have to find other ways to build rapport with those other stakeholders across the organization and build what, what Karen's talking about in terms of, you know, other capabilities, other knowledge, and we can add the trade to it. However, coming back to the, so that's my comment on the prior question. On, on, on this question, yeah, I agree. I think communication skills are so important, good writing skills. Energy, being able to understand and take ownership of something to go drive a solution. But there are some bedrock things that when I recruit and hire that I like to see classification is number one. Because if you don't know how to do that, because if the tool fails, you're using to do 90 % of it or whatever, you've got to be able to do that. And so you have to understand how that works. And oftentimes they view that skill is viewed as drudgery, but we all need to know how to do it. And I think casting the right shadow as leaders, we need to show that we know how to do it. And I think it makes it easier for those in our teams to do it than once they understand that this is a key bedrock thing. But I do see one gap is a desire to, I'll just send them the regulation. How many times have you seen a compliance professional say, okay, here, just read this. This is the rule that I'm telling you, you have to follow. You're not doing your job there. You need to be distilling that and finding ways to get the message across to your audience so that you can get their buy-in, get their support of it so they can understand it. They may not like it, but confronted with reality, it's important to do. And also, when you bring up an issue to someone, if they're resistant to it, There are things that they don't necessarily know and you can enlighten them. So having knowledge and being willing to be honest when you don't know something. Don't try to like, you know, know, dodge the question, dance around it. Just say, you don't know. I don't know the answer to this question exactly. Here's why, you know, and I think that builds ⁓ credibility. People don't necessarily think that, but it really does. So that would be my. Jr (11:40) Hmm. Yeah. Bruce Jackson (11:59) message. Karen Murphy (12:00) But then the executives get all sad if they ask you a question and you go, I'm going to have to take a couple minutes to go research this and get back to you because I really don't have an answer for you right now. And then they just look at you like, well, you're supposed to be the leader of trade. You should know it all. so yeah, think honesty is just the best policy. What is it, over committing and under delivering? Jr (12:00) Now that does it. Bruce Jackson (12:11) Yeah. Yeah. It is absolutely. Jr (12:25) Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Karen Murphy (12:29) do that anymore or every if you did it but it's just not an option. Jr (12:34) Yeah, so I'm thinking of a new kind of a new entrant into this world of trade. What would you advise someone who wants to be working in a trade department? What would you advise them to what skills should they work on or have to really be successful? think? mean, Bruce, you said classification. that what you would? Bruce Jackson (12:56) Well, it's more of a, you know, when I look at a resume from an applicant, I'm looking for keywords that will tell me, do they use the acronyms in the language of the field, particularly if I'm hiring a more senior person? It's different if I'm hiring a junior entry level, but if I'm hiring a more senior person, I expect that they're fluent in some of the terminology. They're going to use, you know, words to describe what they've learned in that fashion. But if they're not using those words, I'm like, okay, they're not exactly what I'm looking for necessarily. But Karen made the comment earlier that we're gonna assume if they've made it to a certain level in the application process that they've got the knowledge. So now I need to really assess whether they have other, whether they're gonna fit culturally with the team that they're coming into. Are they gonna be able to represent the function? towards upwards and across the organization, are they gonna be able to perform at that level? And so then you're looking at the communication skills, knowledge, analytical skills, understanding these things. And some of that just comes from experience. Yes, it comes from education as well, whether someone's well-spoken, those kinds of things. mean, there's nothing that sets me off more than if I hear a lot of ums in a conversation. I mean, But we hear it even from senior folks sometimes, you know, that's something they need to work on, you know, is communicating. Jr (14:20) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. know, another aspect of this, and Karen, I'll throw this at you because you've been a VP. know, many, today there are many trade professionals that are reaching the level of vice president in companies. And there are many that want to be vice president. So Karen, just from your experience, what would be the one key thing that someone who wants to be in that position, what should they demonstrate? Karen Murphy (14:43) Well, we've talked about this before too, and I'll bring it up again because I think it's super important. And that is your brand. Having... that people can describe you in one or two sentences or even one or two words. And I think that that is the key to getting a position that you think you're ready for. But also, one thing I always admired in your management style, Jeff, is the ability to let go, to trust your people who are working on your team to get their jobs done and to care. a lot of the water with respect to some of the processes, activities, and even presentations and requirements. I still see ⁓ in a lot of companies a situation where you've got people who are super knowledgeable and people who keep the lights on at the top and the middle to the bottom of the experience and roles and responsibilities. I always was the kind of person that would, in the beginning of my career, I tried to do everything so that I could have a finger and understand the pain points. I even volunteer at a food pantry, and when they asked me to be on the board, I made sure that I had participated in every possible activity in that pantry, whether it was providing statistics to the big food bank, whether it was loading the trucks, collecting food, from some of our donors like Safeway and then giving it out to the clients. I want to make sure that if someone needs to understand or I can articulate how my team is functioning and where risks are and where opportunities are. And I think that again, anyone who wants to get into a more senior role. If they've done all the jobs, like load the food up into the truck and deliver to the clients, they should be looking at how do they then strategically improve the process. Things like that demonstrated. performance I think is really the way. You can't just sit in a chair and then the ferry will come and you will be a director or a senior director or even a vice president because it carries a lot of responsibility. And like we were talking earlier, when the executives ask you a question and you go, don't know, then they flip out. But if you have a good team that you've developed and have demonstrated reliability and honesty, then I think Jr (17:11) Yeah. Karen Murphy (17:20) you're in that right position now. Jr (17:22) Yeah, yeah, I always when I looked at people and they're what they were doing I always I always was comfortable promoting someone when I saw they were already functioning in that position So for vice president if I already see somebody they're functioning just like you would expect a vice president With all the things that you just said then it's it's it's natural. It makes sense. How about you Bruce any thoughts? Karen Murphy (17:32) Yeah. Bruce Jackson (17:43) Yeah, no, I would agree with that. think you have to look at how your, well, for one thing, as trade professionals, we all know that our, if the leadership isn't listening to you, you're wondering why am I here? Right? And if you're going to be in the senior level role, the VP role, because that's typically where trade compliance has evolved to. I mean, when we got into this career, you didn't have VPs and trade compliance. So you do have that now is you want to be listened to because why do you have this position if you're not going to listen to this individual? And we have the right to ask questions too. So when you get confronted with that, I need an answer. well, drive, explain, give me the background. So I understand what's driving because it may be, they don't really need an answer to the question they're asking you. They may be something else. That's why you're in the position you're in to be able to guide them. and slow things down a little bit and understand, okay, what do we need to be able to react to? Is this a press report that came out about such and such and you have to be able to respond to it? Is it a shareholder drive on issues? And in order to give the right answer. So that's what I would say. Jr (18:54) That's good. It's very good. So as we're talking about the new expectations on trade professionals, I don't think we can avoid the issue of systems. We talked earlier about AI and systems. I'd like to go back there and really think about how, from your perspective, how should teams think differently about systems and about the data in this kind of this new world we're operating in? Any thoughts on that? Bruce Jackson (19:17) Well, my view on systems is, well, basically, systems should be able to regularize transactions so that routine activities can flow smoothly so that your team can focus on those exceptions of things that don't fit the norm, the normal process, so whatever that is, and carry out other activities that are just as valuable, auditing, training, education, strategizing, being a fly on the wall in an engineering meeting so we can understand where the product development's going and anticipate issues. Not that we're gonna sit there and interfere, but it may be simply being aware of things. So having the time to do those things. Systems should help free up time for that and also give channels. to when you have exceptions or when you have to review something, you have a way of doing that and regularizing it to minimize the risk of escapes from your processes and having record keeping. I remember when email and the internet and all these things kind of started being used in a more broad fashion, people were concerned, well, we won't be able to catch the transactions. How wrong that is, right? The government is able to go and pull data. There's lots of data out there to be pulled. And so you want to make sure it's as clean as you can make it. And this is also a great source for them to be used in performing audits and assessments and those kinds of things and looking at your business, what the risks are. To me, that's very important because trade restrictions can pop up in unusual ways. Back in the 90s, there were local communities and cities in the United States that were imposing procurement restrictions on countries that were doing business with one or another embargoed country, or maybe even wasn't even an embargoed country, it was just a country where there were human rights issues. And you could have a situation where you're bidding, you're selling to a city or a community. with one hand and the other hand is doing something with that country somewhere around the world. It may not have any touch point with the United States. How do you collect that kind of data so you can forewarn the business? And it's usually to Karen's point, it's the finance team because people are reporting up that stuff. And so being tapped into that and leveraging those systems to anticipate those kinds of things. hopefully you get the information early on, you know. ⁓ Jr (21:44) Mm. Mm. Bruce Jackson (21:46) Because my first question to someone that comes to me at 5 p.m. on a Friday to say this is urgent has to happen is to say, when did you first know about this? about three weeks ago. Why didn't you come to me then? know, so driving culture change to get us involved earlier is always better. Because that way we can be a snow plow instead of someone who's gonna just stop things, right? We can clear the path for you. snowplow, common analogy for someone who lives in Colorado, do snowplows. yeah. Okay. Karen, what about you? Yeah. What do you think? Yeah. Jr (22:18) Yes. Well, yeah. Karen Murphy (22:22) Okay. I'm ready. Jr (22:26) This is something you're not very passionate about, are you? Karen Murphy (22:27) it's good when you go, it's, it's good when you go second, you know? so I think just to kind of maybe draw a little picture, I think there's two systems at play. One is the corporate ERPs that include, you know, your sales order management, transportation, warehousing, financial data, et cetera. And those need to be squeaky clean. and that data then can flow into. what I would call your trade process tools. Most of these big systems like Oracle or SAP, they collect the data. They don't necessarily generate any data. They're analyzing, for example, license management, sanction parties, even audit. There's some really interesting audit tools out there, but trade professionals tend to run. and very far away from them. And I think they're really cool with respect to audit. But they're not global trade system, they're an audit system. So there's many tools in our toolbox. And I think that we have to be really aware of them and what data is needed to be successful in and out of those solutions. But then that gets back to data integrity and making sure that you're monitoring, especially country of origin has become a hot topic. And one thing that a lot of people don't realize is that some of these trade solutions, they don't even have a bucket to manage country of origin in it. Because what is it? It's an ever evolving data point, or I call it a trade attribute. not stable as supply chain is moved or as companies make decisions about who their suppliers are, et cetera, for that same part number, you could have three or four different country of origin. And then there's preference. I mean, there's a whole bunch of different reasons why these big SAP, Oracle, even MCI and some of these guys. they don't even have an attribute for country of origin in their solution. It must come from another system within the company for that final transaction, whether it's an export or an import, because it's constantly changing. So again, I think that these trade, I'll call them process solution tools, you know, they can really be a tool in your toolbox. And then you layer on that possibly some of these other tools that are becoming more and more available, these AI agents who can do specific activities based on certain parameters, again, supervised in the trade world and even in the tax world and some of these highly regulated requirements. Because again, even at the bottom of every AI that you use, it always says, please check my work. And even if they're writing a procedure for you, please check my work. So I think that that's kind of what I see going on with. There's these big ERP solutions, which you still absolutely might need if you don't have people manually gathering that data to then do these other functions like license management, classification, audit, screening. So that's kind of my view. Jr (25:43) Yeah, no, that's very helpful, Karen. And I guess what's going on in my mind is that we've talked earlier about one of the expectations of trade professionals is to be more strategic. And so in your view, how could systems and data and maybe some of these tools, how can they help organizations become more strategic? Karen Murphy (26:03) So one thing I've been working on now for almost three years, I can't believe it, is a digital transformation initiative at a major company. And we have been battling with that challenge for trade for the full three years. How do we tell our story? How do we anticipate what's going on? And it all goes back to data, having accurate data, but then also being able to articulate the requirements, but then the requirements are changing every day, if not every hour, in certain regulatory environments. And so I think again it's the ability to tell the story using the tools in our toolbox, but then be a bit creative too. Not falsify anything of course, but to really be able to tell the story of what's going on in the landscape. whether it impacts revenue, whether it impacts profitability, or impacts the ability of the company to comply with some of these regulations, I think is super important. And you cannot do it in, well, nobody goes to the, I can't do it in my pajamas, in my loft. I really need all of this information to come together and I have to know how to package it. And that's kind of where the strategy comes in. Jr (27:22) Yeah, I recall back in my latter days at Intel, I was fortunate to have a group, a small group of people that were focused on our systems and the technology. And one of the things that I found so difficult was there was so much data in the company, trade data, just so much everywhere. And how do we utilize that data to make more strategic decisions? So I ended up creating a job and I opened a rec and I actually hired somebody that they would be, they would be my data analyst. Their job would be to go into all those systems and find ways to leverage the data so we could make better decisions, be more proactive, and that actually started to take hold over time. And so I just think there's the system itself as you described, Karen, but there's the data that's all over the place. And we are just drowning in data. And if you don't have a good way... to take advantage of that data so that you can use it to make good decisions and you are just drowning and you are just swimming and swirling and so on. So I think finding a way to leverage the data to me just seems critical in this day. So a couple more questions and then we'll kind of wrap it up. But I'm just kind of curious if we shift a minute and think about ourselves as leaders of an organization. It doesn't have to be a trade leader, but just a leader. And you're responsible to make decisions, right? How do I spend time? How do I spend money? And I'm just kind of curious to get your perspective on as a leader, where should you spend your money and your time and where should you not in this new environment therein? What would you say? Because I can tell you that what the trade people will always ask for is more resources, more people. Can I have more people? And that's usually a conversation, but I'm not sure that's always the right answer, but I'd love to get your thoughts. Bruce Jackson (29:11) Again, I do feel like getting people together face to face. I would actually spend more money on getting making that happen. I think since the pandemic, there's been a sense that we can all work remotely and although there are back to office types of initiatives that's increasingly happening as we have more distance from the pandemic, people are being driven back. into working environments, but there are also a lot of people, particularly in this field, who work remotely, have worked remotely for years. And, you know, they change organizations maybe, but, you know, getting them together face to face, I think, brings a lot of value, can build rapport within your own team, but also interacting with other functions. attending the gatherings of other functions, whether it's sales, marketing, engineering, procurement, operations, whatever, getting plugged in with those teams. That's where I would invest in is building a network because they can help you tremendously with the compliance issues, flagging things early, getting things escalated, brought up, because that's when it's much better when we can be installing fire alarms as opposed to fighting fires. Jr (30:24) Very well put. What about you, Karen? Karen Murphy (30:27) I totally agree. I was well known for my global trade conferences or some people call them summits within my groups and we would figure out different places to hold them where we would get the most leverage. Everybody always wants to come to the US but we were very successful both in Silicon Valley and in Austin for holding summits or and getting good participation because the participants could go meet other teams in those locations. one of my, or several of my conferences were held in China, whether it was in Shanghai or in Suzhou or some of the outlining areas in China, I was shocked at the participation that I got with the Asia teams. And then we also did some in... in Hungary and London was kind of expensive but we did do it at one of my organizations but I totally agree with Bruce and then not just your direct teams. Remember you have, most of us have ambassadors that are performing or making decisions around trade compliance. that don't necessarily report to the official global trade group and getting buy-in from those leaders to let those folks participate. And in fact, at one company, I had like a scholarship program for, I would try to get budget for two people who had shown exemplary performance with regards to trade, even though it wasn't their primary responsibility. So there could be no argument from their management that they could go. Other than, and they would say, well, who's going to do their job when they're in Austin? So I think, again, I really totally support what Bruce said, and I am finding it a challenge in some organizations to get the participants. But the recent ICPA conference I was at, and maybe, Bruce, you can tell us about ACI, sold out in person. But a lot of people still participating virtually. Jr (32:11) ⁓ hmm. Karen Murphy (32:33) but it was the largest participation they've ever had of any of their conferences in San Antonio a few weeks ago. Bruce, what about ACI? How busy was that? Bruce Jackson (32:43) It was pretty well attended, I would say. and I think one challenge is you still have some of the presenters presenting virtually and not in the room. So how do you have a sidebar conversation after the fact that that's a challenge? It'd be better to have folks in the room. also, and this applies to any kind of conference. It's not just not to pick on any one group, but When there are conferences where you get government people, in this case, we didn't have any government folks that would have been good, but we didn't. If you do have government folks, they come, they give their little talk and then they leave. And really what you need is get everyone, you know, lock the doors. We're staying all here together so we can all share and get to know each other and build that rapport that I'm talking about. And so that's something, I mean, that's one thing that was good about ICPA. They always had and I'm not trying to make a plug for ACI. I am a member, a long time member, but it's just that I like the fact that they, and ACI did this too, provide plenty of time for networking, networking breaks, half an hour, not 10 minutes, time for people to actually have conversations, I think is extremely important in this field. And it applies to other fields too. It's not just about Drake compliance. And so having time for those personal interactions is essential. Jr (33:43) No. Yeah, I think what you guys have just spoke of is something that we all three have in common. If I was to answer that, it would be getting people together often. And Karen, you gave some great examples around the world, similar that I did. And in fact, one of the things that frustrated me with the pandemic was the inability to get together. And then right after the pandemic at Intel, we went through some serious cost cutting measures and we couldn't travel. And so I went a number of years. Karen Murphy (34:07) And. Jr (34:35) not being able to really have these sort of gatherings where you got people together. And I think it really had a significant impact on productivity, on morale, on the ability to really partnership and understand each other and work together. And so I would 100 % wholeheartedly agree with both of you that it's so important. In fact, it was so important to me. What I did during that time was I created a Ritners virtual around the world trip. I would have every quarter, I would have a meeting and it would take me two days and I would meet with all parts of the world. virtually on the Zoom calls. And I would do, you know, nine to 10 in the morning with Europe and then like one to two with Costa Rica. And then in the evening I'd do China and the next day I'd do US and then I'd do the folks in Latin America. So yeah, I wanted to make sure that we maintain that cohesive, that connection and we were all meeting together as much as we could. So I wholeheartedly agree with you on that point. Karen, did you have another thought? Karen Murphy (35:29) Yeah, so earlier Bruce mentioned going to other folks like engineering and finance their meetings and parties. That was also what I was known for, trying to get other functions to come to our trade function. And again, not necessarily just for an hour or one presentation. So I would try to have a hook. And one year I had the famous Frank Reynolds, the godfather of Incoterms. come to my trade summit. Let me tell you, it was a packed house. We had legal, we had finance, we had supply chain. But I advertised the heck out of it and it was really worthwhile. And then they saw kind of the rest of the agenda and I'd say... 40 % of them ended up staying for the full conference and coming to some of the, I always have plenary and workshops and coming and participating because value, customs value, transfer pricing, these were all topics that these other teams were actually the owners of, but we had to execute sometimes, right? So anyway, I just think the more pollination you can get and remove the barriers for that is the number one. budget request I think all trade senior leaders should be asking for right now. Jr (36:52) Yeah, and you raise a really good point Karen and Bruce you as well and that is you know, it's one thing to really be super knowledgeable of trade And all the work that we have to do in trade, but I think one of the other skills It's so important is to be knowledgeable of the company and in bringing in other parts of the company or going to their events and so on allows you to be a better better ⁓ Bruce Jackson (36:53) agree with that. Jr (37:16) at understanding the company, right? Knowing what the company is doing, what are the hot points going on in different groups and how do you then become a one who delivers a solution to those business. So I think that's well put. Okay, we are towards the end here. I'm gonna wrap us up and I have one final question and this is just kind of a fun question. So, and I don't know, I'll let you guys say who wants to go first, but the question is what advice would you give your past self in this profession? Bruce Jackson (37:47) That's good question. I suppose just to slow down and don't overreact to things and be prepared to have, well, be ready with the 30 second message, the 10 second message, the one minute, the five minute, and recognize that when you walk into an environment, you may not do a meeting, senior levels. any meeting actually applies to. You don't necessarily know what's driving others coming into that meeting. So be ready for just pretty much anything and don't necessarily stay curious about what others are bringing up and bringing to the table. So just having that awareness and they may not be coming after you. They may be coming after something else. Who knows what's driving it and don't take it personally. You just have to find a way to navigate that. That's what I would advise my younger self about ⁓ early in my career. That's what I would have done. Jr (38:50) Great, fantastic. Karen. Karen Murphy (38:52) So for me, be better prepared. Sometimes I was that dancer when I was younger. And don't let surprises derail me. That happened a lot too. I did get laid off early in my career from a major fruit company that sells computers. And I was just totally, totally in shock. And it really, you know, but I pulled myself up and went to work for a customs broker and freight forwarder and just kind of, you know, pivoted. But it's one of those things where I just need to be, I needed to have been better prepared for different. things that were going on at that time. And so I think prepare. And even today, I have a hard time sometimes preparing for things. And so getting my research done, being patient, that is not one of my skills is patience. And then also being able to let go. I would just say, okay, I'll take care of it myself. And in my younger years, I would just take care of it myself. But I need to let, I needed to have let more people do their job, even if they failed, have their back. And I always say that to people who are very insecure. I've got your back. Go ahead. You can jump off the diving board. but still they're scared. So again, it's those things for my younger self. that, would be what I would think about. Jr (40:27) Hmm, fantastic. For me, real simple, I would have asked for more rather than trying to do it all. Anyway, Bruce, Karen, this has been just a fantastic conversation. The wisdom and insights and experience that you guys bring is just invaluable. And I really know that our listeners will appreciate all of the things that you've said here today. And this has been so fun. We'll have to do this again. Bruce Jackson (40:29) I agree with that. Ha Jr (40:52) There's so much more to talk about. So I just want to thank you for joining me and just sharing, like I said, your perspective. And I appreciate your time and your candor. Jr (41:00) This two-part series has been about the new expectations of the trade profession and what it means to lead in a world where the demands on trade continue to rise. Through both conversations, Bruce Jackson and Karen Murphy reminded us that while the landscape is shifting, the fundamentals remain essential. This means that clarity, curiosity, communication and the ability to connect trade decisions to the broader goals of the business are crucial for success. As the profession evolves, trade leaders must step forward with judgment, influence and a mindset that sees beyond transactions to the strategic outcomes they enable. Thank you for joining me on Written Reflections. a forum to explore deeper questions that shape how we live, lead, and navigate uncertainty. Next week, we will continue the story with an insider's view of Europe and how export controls are evolving. I'm Jeff Rittner. Talk to you real soon.