Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Miniature Horses, Memory Care, and the Neuroscience of Connection | Sanaa Pharayra of Romeo Roadshow | EAW 59

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Miniature Horses, Memory Care, and the Neuroscience of Connection | Sanaa Pharayra of Romeo Roadshow | EAW 59 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
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author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
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Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
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thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
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I have a request.
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If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
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It really helps us get this work done.
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As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
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And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
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equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
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If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
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com.
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So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
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Sanaa Pharayra Sanaa Pharayra Sanaa Pharayra Sanaa Pharayra welcome
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back rockers and fellow horse nerds especially in the therapy world.
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I've got Sanaa Ferreira here who runs something rather interesting with minis.
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It's called the Romeo Roadshow, and she goes around with these minis, speci- not
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just I think, but rather interestingly, to memory care facilities, people with
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Alzheimer's, people with dementia.
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And with her minis, helps people recover memory.
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And this is becoming a sort of cutting edge of the equine-assisted world.
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She's beginning to work with University of Southern California
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and Cal State in the Channel Islands universities to try and get data.
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Now, why does this work?
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Like, how, how is it that we're able to reach into a mind that, a brain really,
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that is eroded and seeming to contract and die, and yet with the right equine
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intervention, we can recover all kinds of memory and bring back all sorts
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of mind and consciousness and so on.
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You know, what's going on with this?
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And so many of us who work in the field either are working with kids and
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young adults, or if people are working in the sort of assisted psychotherapy
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field, they're perhaps working with adults who are seeking therapy in
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a sort of top-down kind of a way.
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But this population with Alzheimer's and dementia really is its own
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universe and its own world.
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So I'm fascinated to talk to you, Sanaa.
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Can you tell us why you do this, how you started doing this,
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and actually what it is you do?
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Sanaa Pharayra: Well, it was a complete surprise to me that I ended up doing
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this, and it's an interesting story.
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Essentially it started with the rescuing a miniature horse that
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was in a very sad situation.
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His owner had passed away, and he had a companion, another miniature horse
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that he'd lived with his entire life.
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They'd lived in a woman's backyard.
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And the other horse sadly passed away right after they
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went to a foster situation.
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And around that time, we happened to be looking to adopt a horse
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for a companion for another horse, and I had every intention of
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finding a full-size rescue horse.
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But this little horse showed up.
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It was this super sad situation, and we ended up adopting him.
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And he was an older an, like, in his teen- teenage approximately miniature horse.
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And he was kind of a typical, what I would describe as a typical
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situation where he was a pasture pet.
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As I'm sure you're aware, a lot of miniature horses, it's sort of like
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the Easter Bunny effect where people get them 'cause they're cute, but
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they don't really do a lot with them.
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So he wasn't he was a little, he was a little scared of people.
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You know, he hadn't really had the right diet.
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He had Cushing's disease.
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You know, his feet hadn't been trimmed properly.
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Rupert Isaacson: I thought you were gonna say he had dementia and we went in
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there and we recovered all his memories.
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Sorry.
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Sanaa Pharayra: Had to make that joke.
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As far as I know, he didn't have dementia.
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But but I, you know, in my career, like with horses, I've had many times that
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we've gotten a horse and fixed it up and, and so anyway, we, we started working with
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him grooming him, got him on the right feeding program, did all the vet work,
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did the lab work, got him on Cushing's medication, you know, fixed his feet,
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and, and he s- and he started coming around, like pretty quickly actually.
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Like, he started getting more comfortable with us and, and really becoming quite
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friendly to where he would come up to us.
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And to give you an idea of how feral he was, the people that had fostered
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him when his owner passed away ha- were not able to catch him and his
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friend, and they had to rope them- To get a hold of them and basically
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physically put them into a horse trailer.
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So I didn't really, you know, have any grand aspirations
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other than to help this animal.
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So, so as he started to become healthier I was then able to start exercising him
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and have some training sessions with him, and I just kind of put him in the
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training schedule with the big horses.
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You know, he had like maybe four times a week, and I wouldn't, I didn't do a ton.
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I'd do like 20-minute sessions with him.
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I taught him how to lunge, taught him how to, you know,
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listen to my voice, ho, you know.
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Different, just basic stuff really.
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Like more, more I was trying to get him fit so he'd be healthier.
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And he just kept getting cuter and cuter and cuter, and he, he ended up
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making this metamorphosis into like a unicorn like pretty much like creature.
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So when we got him he had a horrible haircut.
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Somebody chop- chopped his forelock off.
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You know, he was fat, he was dirty, and he did have big, big beautiful
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brown eyes and a really cute head, and I knew he would be cute once he
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was, once he had had some good care.
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So and then, you know, people would come over to meet him, family and friends,
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and he was just so great with everybody, and everybody loved him so much.
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And we ended up deciding thatâ¦
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Well, we had transported him in a horse trailer to bring him home, and when
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we brought him home, and obviously he hadn't been hauled around very much at
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that point 'cause he'd just been in a pastures or in a backyard his whole life.
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He when we put him in the horse trailer, he- We noticed that he
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stood up, was standing up on his back legs and, like, putting his hooves
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on the window to try to see out.
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And it was just kind of like, "Oh, wow," you know, like, he can't,
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doesn't have a window, you know, it's not the right size for him.
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And we ended up deciding to, to build a little miniature-sized horse van for
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him that was size appropriate so that he could travel around and go places.
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And so we got this little van.
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We just bought, like, a used, a little Nissan van.
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And I hired a guy that does horse trailer repair and welding, and we
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basically built a prototype miniature horse van, and we built a horse box that
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inserted into the back of the van and bolted to the frame that is, looks a
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lot like the inside of a horse trailer.
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It has the pads, you know, like a horse trailer has.
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And the hardest part of the project was figuring out how to
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make the ramp w- system work.
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So we had to rebuild the ramp several, several times, but we finally got
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it to where it worked pretty well.
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And once, around the time that the van got finished we decided thatâ¦
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And, and this was just really a fun, just a fun project we were doing.
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Like, oh, you know, Romeo's - and his name was Romeo.
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Romeo's coming around we're, we wanna take him places, we wanna be able to
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share him with people 'cause he's, he's just so, so great, so amazing.
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Rupert Isaacson: That was gonna be my question is w- how did he go from
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your head to, a companion horse to a horse that you want to drive around.
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You wanna randomly drive him around?
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You wanna take him- Well, I think what happened, To the, to Walmart?
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What, like, what, what is it that you wanna do with this horse?
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So I think, so- Why do you wanna drive him around?
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Sanaa Pharayra: Well, I, I ventured into this whole project with Daryl Daryl
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Hannah, and she, I think she was really inspired by how much he turned around when
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we, through the rehabilitation process.
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Okay.
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And how friendly he became.
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And people that were invited to come over to meet him were visibly, like,
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excited, you know, and happy to meet him and couldn't stop talking about him and,
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and would say, like, "He's magical."
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Like, this was, like, a, something that kept coming up is people-
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Okay â¦ would say he's magical.
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And so I think just seeing that, it really brightened people's day.
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It, everyone really loved him.
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He was not intimidating 'cause he was little.
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And he was so friendly, too.
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The more we worked with him, he became extremely, like, outgoing and
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demonstrative, like, where he, he gives you little kisses, like, on, he'll put his
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nose up to your cheek, and he's so sweet.
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And so I think the idea was, at first was, like, let's just, let's be able
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to take him places, one, so it's a new thing for his training, that he can
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get used to traveling, and two, to show him to people, the people that wouldn't
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be able to come to where he lives.
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So, so that's, so that's how the
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Rupert Isaacson: van project happened.
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Yeah, but y- you must have had in your mind a sort of, 'cause y- you
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told me just before we hit record that you, you know, came up, you
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were a, a professional horsewoman.
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You-
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Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah
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â¦ Rupert Isaacson: in hunter/jumper thing.
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You, you know, then you start running a, a, you know, your own barn
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and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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Right.
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And you become a horse trainer for some well-known people.
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You mentioned- Mm-hmm â¦ Daryl Hannah.
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You know, and you, you, this is not necessarily a logical thing to then
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say- "Look, this mule who's shown up that we, you know, is really
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cute, let's drive him around."
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There must have been some kind of thing in your mind saying- There's a
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particular type of person that might benefit from this, meeting this pony
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Sanaa Pharayra: You know, I,
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Rupert Isaacson: I hon- Where were you thinking you could drive him to?
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Sanaa Pharayra: It wasn't-
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Rupert Isaacson: To, to, to build a whole thing for him.
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Sanaa Pharayra: Okay.
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I
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would really say- It's not something you do randomly, right?
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Yeah â¦ I, I would really say it was Daryl's, Daryl that was the one that
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had the heart to do it, because she said, "I wanna share him with people."
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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And
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Sanaa Pharayra: I didn't-
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Rupert Isaacson: So this being Daryl Hannah, who we all know from the movies.
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Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: Horse lady.
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Yeah.
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So she said- Yeah â¦ okay, maybe
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Sanaa Pharayra: it would be good- She said, "I wanna share him with people."
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"â¦ for people to meet this horse."
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Okay.
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"I think he's magical.
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I wanna share him with people."
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And- Got it â¦ I want, and she said, "I wanna build a van
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so we can take him anywhere."
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Because as you know, a truck and trailer you can't take anywhere, right?
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Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
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Sanaa Pharayra: And so, so it, she was just, I think, inspired
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and wanted to share, which was incredibly amazing of her.
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What I did know, i- I knew that we, wherever we took him, it would be
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well-received, and I knew that by that point he'd had enough training that
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it was safe, you know, to take him out
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Rupert Isaacson: in public.
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Right.
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And at first was your idea, "Oh, we're, we're already going to
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horse shows, so why don't we take him along and it'll be cute?"
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Or was it from the get-go, "You know what?
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Maybe we should reach out to schools or something like that."
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Like- No, â¦ normally there's some sort of imaginary plan that comes in in this
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Sanaa Pharayra: By that, by that point in my career, I had phased
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out of doing a lot of horse shows.
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Yeah.
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So I wasn't doing that as much.
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But I have also in my background run some large programs with horses interacting
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with the public, like trail riding businesses, riding school businesses.
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You know, I've worked with- Okay â¦ like Girl Scout groups, like all that kind
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of outreach, you know, to the public.
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Okay.
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So I, I mean, I know, I'm very well aware of how much people love
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horses, particularly in an urban environment where they don't get-
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Mm-hmm â¦ to see them very often.
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Mm-hmm.
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So I, I was rolling with it knowing that it would be, I knew it
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would be well-received by people.
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But I literally, I'm telling you, I had no thought in my head about it
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being a therapy situation like that.
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I, I, I thought it was just kind of a cute, fun project we were working
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in, on, you know, like something, something just to put on my resume that
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I helped design a miniature horse van.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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You know, like honestly at that point that's what I thought, that when the
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van, when the van was completed and ready to hit the road, Daryl came up with the
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idea of calling it Romeo Roadshow, which was, which was really cute and funny.
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And, And so we're like, "Okay."
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You know, and she actually had a little logo that she drew based on a picture of
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Romeo when one of the things I would do from time to time is fr- free jump him
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in the, in our round pen just for fun.
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So it was like a little picture of him jumping.
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And so we started taking him out and about, like all over the place.
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You know, public places.
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We took him to the beach, we took him to parks, you know, and get him used to going
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in the van, you know, going up and down the ramp you know, being in busy areas.
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And he was great, and people flocked to us ev- wherever we went.
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And and what was really interesting is this word magic keeps coming up.
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But people random people that we didn't know that we met like literally
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on the street, would be, would come up to meet the horses and say, they
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would say, like, "They're magical."
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You know?
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So it- Yeah â¦ it was, like, constantly being reinforced,
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this idea that Romeo was magical.
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And, and people would say, "You just made my day."
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Like, "You just made me so happy.
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I can't stop smiling."
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You know?
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And so you know, at first, at first that was kind of what was happening, and he
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was getting, getting used to traveling.
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And then the next thing that happened that I think was really pivotal and kind of
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really changed the direction of everything was Daryl's sister has a charity called
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The Painted Turtle, and it's a camp for critically ill children to basically
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get to have a summer camp experience.
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It's, it's the sister camp to Paul Newman's camp on the East Coast
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called The Hole in the Wall Gang Camp.
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And they were having a holiday party in December of that year, and they
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asked if we would come and bring Romeo.
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So we thought, you know, oh yeah, this will just be another,
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another outreach thing that we do.
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Or just another fun thing to do with Romeo.
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So we take Romeo to the camp, and there's all, like, there's kids,
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like, in wheelchairs with leg braces, walkers, you know, all kinds of
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different, You know, special different special needs and health situations.
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And Romeo was so good, and he was literally mobbed by a group of
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these children, and at one pointâ¦
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And he was, and he was so perfect.
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I mean, I can't even tell you how well he behaved.
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It, it was like as if he completely understood what was going on.
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At one point, I looked at him and he had his head in the lap of a child
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in a small wheelchair, and there's so many kids surrounding his entire
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body, both sides of him, and their little hands were all over him.
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You almost couldn't even see him anymore.
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Like, you couldn't see any of the little white hair of his body because
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their hands were all over him.
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And he just was standing there perfectly still, just letting them love on him
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and, and it, it literally was like this moment, I think both Darryl and
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I at the same time realized seeing that, that he was a therapy animal.
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It was just sort of like this moment of like, "Oh my God, he's a therapy animal."
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Like, it, it w- it's weird now looking back on it that I didn't see it coming.
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But that, I think, is what really started off the direction
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to go in that, that path.
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And then also, so, so then we, we did a couple other events with The Painted
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Turtle, and there was another children's charity that I had gotten connected with
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that also worked with critically ill children, and we did some stuff with them.
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And all of the things we did were, were extremely popular.
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Same thing happened everywhere we went.
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You know, Romeo would be mobbed.
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And it was like there wasn't really enough Romeo to go around, and we
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figured out pretty early on- That's
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Rupert Isaacson: what she said, sir.
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Sanaa Pharayra: Oh, it's true.
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Pretty early on we were like, "We should get another horse because if we're gonna
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be doing this, there's room in the van."
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We were, usually the two of us would go together, so we should have two horses.
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That way, you know, there's more more petting options and all this stuff.
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So we so I basically looked, put a, put an ad out in my horse network
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looking to adopt a miniature horse that had a temperament to do
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therapy work, and I found Ziggy.
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And Ziggy is a teenag- was a teenage miniature horse as well, and he had his
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owner had done a little bit of stuff with him to where we kinda knew right
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away that he would work in our program.
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And we got Ziggy, and fir- well, first we had to have, like, we had, like, a little
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play date to make sure they liked each other when we, we introduced the horses.
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It went really well.
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Because our idea was that they would live together in the same stall and share
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the same paddock and, and stuff, so we wanted to make sure that Romeo approved.
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So that went really well thankfully.
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So we got Ziggy, and right around that time point Daryl had said to me,
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"You know, I really think we should do some work with seniors also."
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So I had been looking for p- some places-
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Rupert Isaacson: Why?
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Why, why did she say that?
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Sanaa Pharayra: Sh- I think sh- it honestly just from her heart.
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She's like, "We need to share him with everybody," and, like, seniors were
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people we hadn't shared him with yet.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
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Sanaa Pharayra: so it-
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Rupert Isaacson: I think it was
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Sanaa Pharayra: simple
17:21
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: it wasn't that she had a particular thing with seniors,
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it was more- Kids have been seeing him.
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What about old people?
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Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah, I think, and I really just think it came from
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a desire to share, share it, you know, 'cause it was so positive.
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And so I had found an organization in our area that has an adult daycare
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program, where basically a lot of the participants are, have memory care issues.
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And they basically just go for the day, and it's a way for, you know, their
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caretakers or their family that cares for them to still be able to go to work
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or get other things done during the day.
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And then they do different activities with the people, and they, you know,
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feed them lunch and, and stuff like that.
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So, so we started with this organization called Senior Concerns, and they have
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a courtyard area in the middle of their building, so it's like an outdoor
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area, and they arranged chairs kind of in a circular seating arrangement.
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And we brought Romeo and Ziggy in, and we would just kind of spread
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out, and we'd visit each person sitting, and they would be seated.
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Some people were in wheelchairs, other people sat in chairs.
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And we would visit each person for a couple minutes, and we'd kind of go,
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go around in a circle a few times, and we visited for, like, about 45 minutes.
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And it was great.
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Everybody loved it.
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It was interesting because most, most of the people were very
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comfortable with the horses.
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And then there were a few people that had grown up with horses that were
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super comfortable with the horses right away, and then there were a few
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people that were scared of the horses.
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So I just kind of intuitively, obviously I'm not gonna force anyone
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to, to pet them that's scared.
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But I would s- I would still go, like, withinâ¦
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I'd still bring the horses near the person, not, not maybe quite as close,
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and we'd just kind of hang out in their presence for a couple minutes.
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So I'd still spend some time in their presence but just allow them to sit
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there if they didn't wanna engage.
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You know, they didn't have to pet the horse, and I'd move on.
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So, so anyway, the first visit went really well, and they really
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wanted us to come once a month.
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So I go back the next time, and I noticed that the people that had
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been scared were better than the, the first time I'd been there.
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Still not completely comfortable, but noticeably better.
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And, and so, but again, at that point, I just, I didn't really think much of it.
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And then the third time I went, so three months into this, the people, every one
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of the people that had been scared was no longer scared anymore, and they were
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all petting the horses, smiling, enjo- like, obviously enjoying the experience.
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But what w- what was very interesting is they didn't seem to remember
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that I'd been there before.
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Because they ask me like the same questions every time.
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You know, 'cause I'll go around like two to three laps usually per visit.
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They'll ask me the same questions.
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Some, some of the people will.
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You know, not everybody has the same amount of cognitive decline.
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But what are their names?
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Are they boys or girls?
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How old areâ¦
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You know, the same questions over and over and over.
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And and I just keep answering them, you know, when I get asked the same thing.
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But I thought to myself, I'm like, "This is pretty remarkable," because
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I know as a riding instructor that teaching people who have fear issues,
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it takes a long time to overcome fear.
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Like fe- Yeah, and the really the only way you can overcome fear, in my
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opinion, is to have repeated positive experiences, you know, that basically
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take the place of whatever, you know, the fear, the fear issue came from.
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And so the fact that they became so much more confident in only three visits when
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I wasn't able to also use language to explain anything to them, it was just
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the experience of the horse being there.
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Even though they didn't remember that I'd been there, that just, that to
21:24
me was like, kind of blew my mind.
21:27
And I have been arou- I have been around therapeutic riding
21:30
programs multiple times in my life.
21:32
I was on the board of directors of one, and I've supplied horses for
21:36
some therapeutic riding programs.
21:37
So I've been kind of like a little bit in, in that world.
21:41
I wouldn't say fully immersed, but I never, I've never worked with seniors, you
21:47
know, or people with cognitive decline.
21:50
But I was really fascinated by that.
21:51
And then- And the, and then it, the program just kept growing.
21:56
We got more facilities that had day programs that wanted us to come.
22:00
So we started expanding our schedule, and basically trying to go once a month.
22:06
So it kind of got to where we, we knew a lot of the people that we were visiting,
22:11
and we were observing changes in them.
22:13
And seeing, like, people that were very disengaged, they even kind of staring
22:21
off into space n- not looking at you, and then you bring the horse up to
22:25
them, and all of a sudden they'd wake up and become alert, and, like, go to
22:30
the horse, pet the horse, even smile.
22:32
People that, as far as I know, didn't talk mu- like, at all or
22:38
much, I've seen, I've heard them say words or talk to the horses.
22:43
The care staff has told us multiple times that it's turned people's days around.
22:48
You know, if someone was having a hard day, after the visit with the horses
22:52
they were mu- noticeably better.
22:54
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
22:54
Sanaa Pharayra: I've seen people that appeared to be agitated or ruminating
22:58
on something s- kind of snap out of it when the horses were there and
23:03
they were visiting with the horses.
23:04
And so I was just really, like, a lot of interesting observations, and then I just
23:09
started asking questions because I was also getting to know the, the people that
23:14
work at the facilities, the care staff and the people that run the programs.
23:17
I was also getting to know them.
23:19
And everyâ¦
23:21
This is something else that was very interesting to me, is that every one of
23:24
the places that we visit also has dog therapy programs that come regularly.
23:30
Not on the same t- not at the same time as us, but on the
23:32
schedule they come regularly.
23:34
And so I would ask the staff, "How does this compare to the dog therapy visits?
23:39
Like, do you, you know, are you seeing the same thing when the dogs visit?
23:43
Is it different?"
23:44
And and every one of them has told me that they see much greater
23:49
engagement when the horses are there.
23:52
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
23:53
Sanaa Pharayra: So I thought that was fascinating, too.
23:55
And then that really, like all of these things that I was seeing, just m- you
24:01
know, it kind of inspired me to go down a rabbit hole of finding out has
24:04
anyone done research on this, because I know that there's been some research
24:09
on autism and equine therapy, and PTSD and equine therapy but I hadn't heard
24:14
of anything that had been done with older adults with cognitive decline.
24:20
So I started looking to see if it had been, anything had been done before,
24:23
and it's very, like, very, very minimal what's, what's been done previously.
24:28
And I think you did, I think you may have speaken- spoken to Nancy
24:31
and Paula, who have the Connected
24:33
Rupert Isaacson: Horse program.
24:33
Yes, I have.
24:34
Absolutely.
24:34
Yeah.
24:34
And that's in a pre- We actually just published that podcast with them.
24:38
So just listeners and people watching on YouTube, go back and find, we'll give
24:43
you their name again in a moment, because they're the ones who are doing â¦ Just go
24:46
find that episode because they're the ones who are doing the research on cognition,
24:51
dementia, and so on with horses.
24:52
Just give us their names again, Sana.
24:55
Sanaa Pharayra: It's Nancy and Paula and it's The Connected Horse.
24:59
Rupert Isaacson: The Connected Horse, that's right.
25:00
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
25:01
Yeah.
25:01
And so that is how I met them.
25:04
I was, I was just trying to find out, you know, who's done research, who
25:08
knows, who knows anything about this that I can, that I can collaborate with
25:13
or l- you know, learn something from.
25:15
Yeah.
25:15
And that's how I, I found them, basically, and I reached out to them and
25:20
they were very gracious to â¦ They've met with me a bunch of times via
25:24
Zoom and we've talked about stuff.
25:26
And their program's different because it it's focused more on individuals
25:30
with mild cognitive decline and their caregivers, and they go to a facility that
25:37
has lar- mostly, I think, large horses.
25:40
And they do a program at a facility.
25:43
But they the two of them are, you know, lifelong horse people, but they're also
25:47
work in the gerontology field, so they have a lot of expertise in that field.
25:52
So they've been very helpful.
25:54
And so, so-
25:56
Rupert Isaacson: Nancy Scheer and Paula Hirtel.
26:00
Sanaa Pharayra: Yes.
26:00
Rupert Isaacson: That's just â¦ Yeah.
26:01
Sanaa Pharayra: Yes.
26:01
Thank you.
26:01
Yeah,
26:02
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.
26:02
Okay.
26:03
Yes.
26:03
Please go on.
26:04
Yeah.
26:04
Sanaa Pharayra: I didn't, didn't wanna butcher their last names.
26:07
So, so anyway, I've been talking to them, and they also have a very
26:11
brilliant veterinarian named Dr.
26:13
Claudia Sonder, who's on their board, who helped with their-
26:17
Okay â¦ helped with their study that they did, and she was formerly the
26:21
head of research at the UC Davis Vet School, and she's really incredible.
26:25
And has a lot of experience doing research with horse stuff.
26:28
So she helped them with their study, and they've been really helpful.
26:32
But long story short- I think both Daryl and I kind of realized the, the
26:38
more we did this work, first of all, there was a massive amount of need
26:42
for it we, that we had no idea about.
26:45
And we were s- And
26:46
Rupert Isaacson: this is all happening in the LA area, right?
26:48
All in Southern California.
26:48
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
26:49
Well, Southern California, yeah.
26:50
Yeah.
26:50
Yeah.
26:51
And so I think that also what we saw how much it was helping people and how
26:58
great it was, and we wanted to do as much as we could to advance the field
27:05
and help it, you know, and kind of were surprised no one's done this before.
27:10
Like, it's kind of ama- it's kind of incredible to think of it like that.
27:13
And so we kind of came to the conclusion that we need to somehow be, you know,
27:19
involved in some research to look at this.
27:20
Mm-hmm.
27:21
Because, I mean, I'm blown away.
27:22
I've been blown away by some of the things I've seen- Mm â¦ but
27:25
it's not my specialty, you know, to do research on this population.
27:29
So I started working on reaching out through s- you know, just
27:34
whatever connections we had.
27:35
I started networking to fi- see if we could find some partners that would help
27:40
us with a study, and that's how we got connected with Cal State Channel Islands.
27:45
And we have a professor named Ronald Verkowski, who's s- he's
27:50
specializes in gerontology research, and he's been working with us over
27:55
the summer to kind of help figure out how we're gonna do a study.
28:00
And the idea is to probably s- we'll probably start with a small
28:03
study, hopefully in the fall or in this next school year.
28:06
Okay.
28:08
Yeah.
28:08
And we're, we're working out the details of that now, but that's kind of been
28:12
sort of, like, where the next chapter is going is to you know, get some greater
28:17
understanding from the academic and science, science community, I would say.
28:22
Rupert Isaacson: I'm looking, I'm on your website right now, so I-
28:24
Okay â¦ got distracted, and I'm looking at all these pictures of
28:27
of Romeo and Ziggy with old people.
28:31
And it's, it's remarkable because what I'mâ¦
28:33
I'm not just looking at the pictures of them, I'm looking at the pictures of
28:37
him, and there's a particular picture I'm looking at where he is receiving a
28:46
kiss and sort of giving a kiss to- Yeah
28:48
a lady in a straw hat, and I can see in, just in his eye the-
28:57
depth of sort of understanding that he's got going on.
29:00
Yeah.
29:00
And of course, I have, you know, I have a bit of a background with this myself.
29:03
When my son, who was diagnosed with very severe autism when he was three-
29:09
Right â¦ you know, non-verbal, pooing his pants self-harming
29:12
tantrums, the whole nine yards.
29:14
When he met my neighbor's Quarter Horse mare, Betsy there was a moment like that
29:23
with that exact expression that I'm just seeing in that picture there with Romeo,
29:28
where she saw something in him and seemed to accept a kind of responsibility,
29:38
Mm â¦ where she would then modify her behavior in ways that were so remarkable.
29:43
You know- Right â¦ he crawled under her hooves that first day without knowing
29:47
her in the pasture with the other horses around her before I could get to him.
29:51
And- Right â¦ I knew the mare a little bit and I knew she was
29:54
a bit of a boss bitch, you know?
29:55
Right.
29:56
And if she was going to move the other horses off, she might do
29:59
it with her ears back and a, you know, a little bit of a rush.
30:02
Right.
30:03
And she moved them off with this really gentle, like, movement of the
30:07
nose, and bent her head to Rowan, and licked- Yes â¦ and chewed.
30:11
And I could see past, you know, I'm sure you had this moment too,
30:15
where, and I'm sure listen- a lot of listeners have had this moment,
30:18
where you think you know about horses.
30:20
You know, you've been around horses all your life.
30:21
Yeah.
30:22
And, and you do.
30:23
There's a lot you know.
30:24
There's a lot you don't know.
30:26
And when you see a moment like that, you realize, oh, my God, there is this
30:29
entire universe in there that I only know the very, very outer periphery of.
30:37
Sanaa Pharayra: Totally.
30:38
We, we don't know anything really, you know?
30:41
Rupert Isaacson: No.
30:41
Sanaa Pharayra: They have so much to teach us.
30:44
Rupert Isaacson: And it's interesting to me that- Totally â¦ you know,
30:45
when I was a kid or a teenager, we were aware growing up in England of
30:50
riding for the disabled, you know, RDA.
30:51
Uh-huh.
30:52
But it wasn't something I ever got involved in because
30:56
I wasn't interested, you know?
30:57
And, and I- Uh-huh
30:58
wasn't interested at all until my son became- Right â¦ as he was, and then
31:03
suddenly he forges a relationship with my neighbor's mare, and he begins to
31:07
speak when I start to ride with him.
31:09
Mm.
31:09
And oh, my gosh, you know, now I'm suddenly in that world.
31:12
But I'm always rather impressed by people that want to get into that world- Mm
31:18
anyway, you know?
31:19
Right â¦ not just for selfish reasons like me.
31:21
N- but what I find fascinating about the whole thing is it used to be that
31:27
the therapy world was really something very apart from the regular riding world
31:32
or the regular horse world- Mm â¦ or the, the showing world or whatever.
31:36
And now I think that is really changing.
31:38
I think the therapy world is now bleeding over into the mainstream and-
31:44
Right â¦ causing a lot of people in the mainstream to recalibrate and rethink.
31:50
Like, why am I doing this at all?
31:52
I guess I'm- involved with horses 'cause it kind of makes me feel better, you know?
31:58
Right.
31:58
Because I'm not using them to go to the supermarket.
32:00
Right.
32:01
And when I go to the doctor I drive my car, you know?
32:03
And so the only reason I'm involved with this animal at all
32:07
is really for my mental wellbeing.
32:10
Right â¦ and then, oh, what about the animal's wellbeing?
32:13
And I love that your story started with this horse being
32:19
somewhat of a rescue horse.
32:21
Sanaa Pharayra: Mm-hmm.
32:21
Rupert Isaacson: And you restoring him to wellbeing.
32:25
Right.
32:25
And then him taking that wellbeing and transmitting that to others.
32:31
And weirdly- Yes â¦ I, I feel that the therapy world has some catching up to do
32:36
in this regard, that up until relatively recently the attitude has been the
32:43
horse must be quiet to do therapy- Right
32:46
but that's it.
32:46
Right?
32:47
So it doesn't matter- Right â¦ if he's stiff or arthritic or not feeling good,
32:51
and we'll stable him 24 hours a day because we just want him conveniently
32:55
there, and- Yes â¦ he'll just do, like, a bunch of sessions a day, and
32:58
all we require of this horse is to be quiet while we lead him around.
33:02
And of course the horses- Right â¦ hate it, and s- go sour and start to,
33:06
you know, bite the handlers, and gradually get stiffer and sicker.
33:12
Right â¦ and now people in the therapeutic world are realizing,
33:16
ah, yeah, no, we have to give these horses wellbeing, or they
33:19
will have no wellbeing to give.
33:21
But it's interesting how that's a bit of a late conclusion, that- Well-
33:27
you know.
33:27
Yeah
33:27
â¦ Sanaa Pharayra: that's, I think that from my perspective, you know, and I- I
33:33
really, I, you, I really think it's great that so many people wanna be involved in
33:37
all of this, but my, And there is this massive wave of interest in animal therapy
33:43
that's happening- Mm â¦ right now.
33:44
Not just with horses, but, you know, even with dogs and, and other animals.
33:48
Mm.
33:48
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
33:48
Sanaa Pharayra: My concern is that it's not well-regulated and that I th- I,
33:56
my previous experiences with it, I felt like the horsemanship aspect wasn't as,
34:05
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
34:06
â¦ Sanaa Pharayra: prominent as it should have been.
34:08
And to your point you know, and I experienced the exact same
34:12
things in the riding schools, that I think that there's- Yeah
34:15
this idea that these sort of dull, lazy, burnout horses are, quote-unquote,
34:21
safe, and that this is, you know.
34:23
And, and to have a therapy program, you just go get, go get a suitable
34:27
horse, and then, and then all the f- a lot of the protocols are just based
34:33
on assuming you have a suitable horse, but not going into the depths of how
34:39
do you determine the horse is suitable?
34:40
How do you maintain the horse?
34:42
How do you take a horse and make them suitable?
34:45
Like, all of that- Yeah â¦ requires a, a great deal of horsemanship that cannot
34:49
be acquired in a short period of time I
34:54
Rupert Isaacson: wholeheartedly agree.
34:56
Sanaa Pharayra: And I've been, one of the things I've been really, really
34:59
dying to talk to you about, 'cause I was bl- well, I was blown away when
35:03
I found out you were doing therapy work on upper level dressage horses.
35:07
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
35:08
Sanaa Pharayra: And I thought that's super interesting because there is
35:12
this, like, because we focus on, in our work with the miniature horses,
35:16
we're focusing on emotional engagement.
35:19
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
35:19
So
35:19
Sanaa Pharayra: to have emotional engagement with the horses,
35:22
the horses can't be exhausted, tired, or burnt out, or dull.
35:27
They have to be alert and bright.
35:30
Rupert Isaacson: Happy.
35:30
Sanaa Pharayra: And-
35:31
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
35:31
â¦ Sanaa Pharayra: happy, yes.
35:32
But also, they also have to be trained so that they're safe too.
35:36
Mm-hmm.
35:37
So they're â¦ And, and that's the hallmark of a well-trained horse,
35:41
is that they can be both responsive and relaxed at the same time.
35:46
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
35:47
Sanaa Pharayra: Exactly.
35:47
But that takes a, a higher level of skill to produce that
35:51
over and over and over again.
35:52
Rupert Isaacson: It does, and one has to be curious enough
35:55
to want to acquire that skill.
35:57
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
35:58
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, horse people are notoriously defensive about,
36:03
and- Right â¦ in fact, I, I go further and say toxic- â¦ about dying on the
36:07
hill of their particular discipline or- Yes â¦ inclusion or whatever.
36:13
Hating- Yeah â¦ ever going back to being a beginner again.
36:17
Right.
36:17
Defending, like, to the death their own position rather than doing what
36:23
any other professional would do in any other field, and saying, "Well
36:27
look, in order to get professional development, maybe I need to go outside
36:30
my discipline a bit and, you know- Oh,
36:32
Sanaa Pharayra: definitely
36:32
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: learn from other people."
36:34
Yeah.
36:34
And so but I am of course naturally curious, and I'm also a journalist, and
36:38
I had, you know, a background working in human rights in Africa long before- Sure
36:45
â¦ I got my life taken sideways by autism.
36:49
Uh-huh.
36:49
But I was always a horse person, and I was always curious.
36:53
So I grew up very much in the sort of fox hunting heartland of what they
36:58
call the shires of England, which is-
37:00
Sanaa Pharayra: Okay
37:00
Rupert Isaacson: you guys would c- be like your Virginia.
37:03
Uh-huh â¦ and that's the areas of land in the midlands of England where fox
37:08
hunting and cross-country riding was born, and you get those huge, big hedges and,
37:11
you know, we all grew up jumping them.
37:13
And, Right â¦ then, you know, eventing comes out of that, and show jumping
37:16
comes out of that, and blah, blah, blah.
37:17
Right.
37:17
And it all very quickly got exported to the Americas through
37:20
the colonials, people like Lord Fairfax, and so George Washington was
37:23
a fox hunter, and blah, blah, blah.
37:25
Uh-huh.
37:25
So I, I grew up in the sort of belly of that tradition, and I remember
37:30
there was a traveling horse show going around in the '80s, early '80s.
37:36
I'm a teenager.
37:37
And, People had gone to see it, and it was really good.
37:39
There were people doing really interesting things with horses
37:41
that we didn't normally get to see.
37:43
And I remember hearing it discussed by a couple of the people out hunting
37:46
going, "Well, well, you know, I don't train my horse to do circus trickster."
37:50
And I remember thinking, "Well, but why not?"
37:53
You know?
37:53
Like, why would that i- in any way detract from them being
37:57
able to take you over a hedge?
37:59
And maybe it would sort of deepen your horsemanship.
38:02
And anyway, a lot of horses ride and drive, and ride and plow, because even-
38:07
Right â¦ when I was growing up, there were still a lot of horses being trained
38:09
to harness who also were riding horses.
38:12
So what's the problem with cross-fertilization?
38:17
I know what it is.
38:18
You're afraid of what you don't know.
38:19
Okay, fine, I understand that.
38:20
But when it got to, with me, I noticed, you see, from day one, that
38:27
my son was up on the horse, that the rhythm that the horse was in made a
38:31
difference to whether or not he spoke.
38:34
It was that simple, that if the horse was in some sort of soft collection,
38:37
and I wasn't in any way a dressage person at that time, this is like
38:40
2004, so I knew e- enough about-
38:47
the bare minimum jumping collection that I could- Uh-huh â¦ put, and I had lots
38:51
of hours up on this horse with Rowan.
38:53
So I could- Uh-huh
38:54
kind of work out a bit of a private language with her, and- Right â¦ with
38:58
using my weight and so on.
38:59
And eventually I could train her to what they call the terre a terre, the
39:05
ground to ground in classical dressage, which is like a piaffe in canter.
39:09
And, Okay â¦ when I did that, my God, I mean, he just â¦ So then of course- Yeah
39:13
I started wondering, well, would that be other kids as well?
39:17
You know, is that just him?
39:17
And I noticed, yeah, immediately.
39:19
Any, any kid I did that with just communication- Yeah
39:22
â¦ communication, communication.
39:23
So then of course I had to get curious.
39:25
Well, why?
39:26
Why is that working?
39:27
So something's happening in the brain, something's
39:29
happening in the nervous system.
39:30
Very like you, going, reaching out to the universities.
39:33
I reached, I said, "Well, who knows, who knows about brains and nervous systems?"
39:37
That, that's neuroscientists.
39:38
All right.
39:39
So I ring up some neuroscientists and say, "Look, we're doing this
39:42
thing, and this is what's happening."
39:43
And I send them- Right â¦ the video, and some of them come and look, and
39:45
they, and they explain it to me.
39:47
They say, "Oh, right, Rupert, what's going on when the horse is in this
39:49
kind of soft collection is that it's rocking your guys' hips in rhythm.
39:54
And when that happens, it makes your body produce this hormone called oxytocin,
39:59
which not only feels really good, 'cause it does feel really good to do it, but it
40:03
calms an over-agitated nervous system so that it calms down the amygdala, Mm-hmm
40:09
which is being triggered all the time by thinking there's a threat, therefore
40:12
telling the body to produce the stress hormone cortisol, which blocks learning.
40:18
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
40:18
Rupert Isaacson: And you're giving them the antidote.
40:21
And more than that because the vestibular system's being so activated, 'cause
40:25
you're up there for quite a while, and you're playing games up there
40:27
and things it's causing the brain to produce this amino acid, this
40:31
protein, and that protein has a name.
40:34
It's got a four-letter acronym,
40:38
BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which means getting
40:44
more brain cells basically.
40:45
That the- Yes â¦ the, the amino acid, the protein becomes a stem
40:49
cell that becomes a, a, a neuron.
40:50
Right.
40:51
But billions of them.
40:52
And then among- Yes â¦ these neurons are some of particular interest to people
40:55
like you, Rupert, because there's some particular neurons called Purkinje cells.
41:00
We should call them- Mm-hmm â¦ Purkinje cells because they were discovered
41:03
by a Czech dude in the 19th century- Uh-huh â¦ with a very big microscope.
41:07
And these things govern motor skills- doing stuff and social skills.
41:13
So you are taking someone with an overactive nervous sy- oversensitive
41:16
nervous system, overactive amygdala, who's basically poisoned by too much cortisol,
41:22
therefore can't learn, and is, you know, in a state of distress, and you're
41:27
filling them with the antidote hormone, which happens to also be a hormone of
41:31
communication, which is useful- Right
41:33
when you're dealing with autism, auto being- Yeah â¦ the Greek word for
41:37
the self, locked within the self.
41:39
Difficulties- Right â¦ the relationship with the exterior world.
41:42
You're filling them with a communication hormone that makes them
41:45
feel good, and social skill cells.
41:48
So guess what?
41:49
You see change.
41:51
And we, when we understood that, we're like, "Okay, so we can replicate this."
41:57
So we came up with a way of replicating it with a horse, horse Uh-huh â¦ with
42:01
a kid in front of you, and a way of replicating it without a horse, because
42:05
we also thought, well, what, what are you giving to the families when they go home?
42:09
You know, they- Right â¦ haven't got a horse, right?
42:10
So they need some way to keep this type of movement going.
42:13
So we would show them that, and that's called movement method.
42:15
All right, fine.
42:16
But then we realized, yeah, but how do you train the horses to be able to deliver
42:22
this without, like, having 1,000 hours up there to work out a private language?
42:26
So then I was like, "Okay, fine.
42:28
I need to talk to people who really know how to train this kind of thing."
42:33
And that eventually- Right â¦ led down a rabbit hole of d- discovering
42:37
that it's all about in-hand work, and it's all about teaching the dressage,
42:41
the classical dressage, on the ground.
42:42
And if you can do that, then you have horses that can collect in this
42:47
soft way, which is joyful for the horse, 'cause when horses are in a
42:51
state of joy, they move like that.
42:53
And when
42:55
Sanaa Pharayra: they're in their quiet joy- It's also very, it's
42:55
a very focused state for a horse.
42:58
Rupert Isaacson: It is.
42:59
And, but the, th- there's that, but it's tied into their passionate behaviors.
43:03
It's tied into their- Yeah â¦ play and mating and, to some degree, fighting
43:07
behaviors just like it is in humans.
43:10
So you go to the non-explosive end of it.
43:13
You go towards the sort of quiet joy end of it.
43:16
And th- luckily, there's a classical system for this.
43:18
So I, you know, went and learned from people in Portugal, and
43:22
learned sort of quite obsessively.
43:24
Yeah.
43:24
And then found that we could replicate how to create- a therapy horse
43:30
that had the ability to do this.
43:33
And of course, the ability- Got it â¦ to do this isn't just
43:36
understanding some movements.
43:37
They need exceptional amounts of muscle.
43:40
They need- Right â¦ and then we also realized, back to that BDNF
43:44
thing that we were talking about that the horses get it, too.
43:49
Because when you work with them in hand in that way, they're constantly
43:53
crossing the midline of their body.
43:56
And- Right â¦ when any mammal does that, whether you're a monkey like
43:59
us, or whether you're a horse or a dog your brain produces that BDNF thing,
44:04
so you effectively grow a new brain.
44:08
We were getting all these therapy horses in who were messed up in various ways,
44:12
Sanaa Pharayra: and- Kind of like yoga
44:14
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: very like, b- t- think of it as a mix between
44:16
yoga, martial arts, and dance.
44:18
Yeah, no.
44:19
And all of those sort of- Definitely â¦ serve the same functions to some
44:22
degree, but in slightly different ways.
44:25
And but they all have this effect on the brain and the body.
44:28
And so what happened w- was we were getting these donation horses which
44:32
were coming without wellbeing.
44:34
Right â¦ and often feeling bad, and often feeling kind of grumpy- Right
44:40
um, with a sort of default no in them, but who were quiet.
44:44
Yeah.
44:44
And after we had done this with them for, oh, you know, not
44:49
long, they, they would go from no
44:55
to maybe to- â¦ okay, to all right.
45:02
Yeah.
45:02
To yes, to at your service, madam.
45:05
Sanaa Pharayra: Yes.
45:06
Rupert Isaacson: We, we would watch them transform, very similar to
45:08
what you talked about with Romeo.
45:11
You know, as you were talking, I was like, "Oh, yeah, BDNF."
45:13
Sanaa Pharayra: Well, as they become more physically capable, you know, and
45:17
it's easier for them too probably, for the collected movements, 'cause as you
45:20
said, it does take time to develop their bodies- Mm-hmm â¦ to be able to do that.
45:24
Rupert Isaacson: But not a crazy amount of time.
45:26
That's the thing.
45:26
So there is this really efficient old master system.
45:29
You can do it in about three months.
45:30
If you
45:30
Sanaa Pharayra: know what you're doing, though.
45:32
You know, if you know what you're doing.
45:33
Rupert Isaacson: Well, the only way- It doesn't take a while â¦ you can know what
45:35
you're doing is if you go get mentorship.
45:37
The only way you can know what you're doing- Right
45:37
is if you let somebody else teach you, right?
45:41
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
45:41
Rupert Isaacson: And of course, I had a, a really good motivation
45:45
for that because m- of my son.
45:48
Right.
45:48
And wanting to help other people like my son, so I wasn't interested
45:52
in maintaining a status quo of- Right â¦ my horsemanship.
45:56
I was very motivated to learn new things.
45:59
Yeah.
46:00
But what I have seen frequently in the therapy world is that people
46:07
are not curious, and people are not wanting to learn new things.
46:10
And- Right â¦ this saddens me, because as an autism dad, I'm like,
46:14
well- That means you're prioritizing your desire for a status quo over
46:21
helping people like my son, and frankly, that saddens me, you know?
46:25
Right.
46:25
So it's really interesting for me to hear the, your story because
46:29
there's so many parallels where, but the, what, what stands out for me
46:34
particularly with you there is curiosity.
46:38
You seem to be- Mm-hmm â¦ an unusually curious horse person, that you've- Yes
46:43
â¦ made that journey from the hunter jumper thing, which is great because it gives
46:47
you lots of expertise, and then- Mm-hmm
46:49
into the sort of public outreach end, but you begin to- Right â¦ notice,
46:53
yeah, but some of these horses, they're not, they're not feeling so good.
46:56
Right â¦ you put that in the back of your mind.
46:58
What, what can I do about that?
46:59
And then you, you fall into running this stable for Daryl, and you're do- now
47:03
exploring all kinds of other things.
47:05
You're ex- you were telling me you started exploring liberty.
47:07
You started exploring all these other aspects of horsemanship
47:11
without ditching- Right â¦ any of the other things that you'd learned.
47:14
Right.
47:14
And then you arrive at a point where you can produce a horse like
47:19
Sanaa Pharayra: Ophelia.
47:19
Yes.
47:19
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
47:20
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
47:21
And one of the things there are so many different offshoots of this, but
47:25
before I did, you know, as we talked, we, our fr- mutual friend Kansas,
47:30
Rupert Isaacson: Kansas
47:31
Sanaa Pharayra: Paradine
47:31
set
47:31
Rupert Isaacson: this up One of the best humans-
47:32
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah
47:33
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: on the planet, yeah.
47:34
If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering
47:37
a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
47:41
taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
47:45
Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
47:51
Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
47:58
developed in conjunction with Dr.
48:00
Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
48:04
We work in the saddle with younger children.
48:07
Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
48:13
It works incredibly well.
48:14
It's now in about 40 countries.
48:17
Check it out.
48:18
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
48:22
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48:26
applied in schools, in homes.
48:28
If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
48:33
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
48:36
when they're not with you.
48:37
Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
48:41
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
48:44
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48:48
in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
48:53
So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
48:56
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
49:00
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
49:05
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
49:08
need, as well as Serving my clients.
49:11
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
49:16
absolutely gives you this.
49:18
Sanaa Pharayra: She's, she's great.
49:19
And she had, so Kansas had been telling me I needed, you know, to talk to
49:23
you, and I was, I would â¦ And so I went and I watched your documentary,
49:27
and I watched several presentations that you had on YouTube, and I
49:31
watched a bunch of your podcasts.
49:32
And so I w- so I heard the story about you discovering that the upper, some of those
49:39
upper level movements were more effective.
49:41
And I heard you ta- talking about in one of your presentations your
49:45
observed responses, you know, in your son and the other individuals with
49:50
autism that you were working with.
49:51
And one of the things I wanted to tell you, discuss with you, because it kind
49:56
of blew my mind, is a lot of the things that you were telling me that you notice
50:01
the positive benefits are p- parallel almost exactly what I'm seeing in my work.
50:07
But, but with what I'm doing, nobody's riding a horse.
50:12
So that kind of blew my mind.
50:13
I wanted to talk to you about that because I did see that you had
50:16
consulted with Temple Grandin, and I did hear about the movement method
50:20
and the theory about the movement.
50:21
And I myself know from getting to ride horses that are trained at a high
50:27
level, I know the feeling of those collective gaits, the piaffe, passage.
50:31
Like, you know, it, it, from my, from myself experiencing it, it is a thrilling-
50:39
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we
50:39
Sanaa Pharayra: call it the- Like, ah â¦ the horsegasm,
50:41
Rupert Isaacson: having the horsegasm.
50:42
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
50:42
Rupert Isaacson: Like, it, you- I mean, there's so much, like- You
50:43
don't, you don't experience that movement and get off the horse
50:46
and go, "Eh, that was all right."
50:47
You know- Yeah.
50:48
You go like, "I want to do that again," right?
50:49
Yeah,
50:50
Sanaa Pharayra: yeah.
50:50
Yeah.
50:50
And so- It's addictive â¦ I, I, but I was like, "Oh, my God, I can't wait
50:53
to talk to Rupert about this," because how, I wanna, I wanted to tell you,
50:58
I'm seeing similarities- This without,
51:00
Rupert Isaacson: without
51:01
Sanaa Pharayra: the- â¦ without riding.
51:02
And that, and that's another reason why it's been blowing my mind- So-
51:05
â¦ because there's no riding involved
51:07
Rupert Isaacson: I can speculate as to why that is.
51:09
Okay.
51:10
So we have a third program called- Mm-hmm â¦ Takhin.
51:14
It's a weird word.
51:15
It's a Mongolian word.
51:16
Okay.
51:16
T-A-K-H-I-N, Takhin Equine Integration.
51:20
And this arose, like everything that we do, somewhat organically because once we
51:27
were down that road of training the horses to these high levels we were beginning
51:31
to attract a lot of dressage clients as well as the therapy work, and we got very
51:35
quickly overwhelmed with the number of people that, you know, wanted to sign up.
51:38
And we kind of needed to because, you know, they, the dressage people would
51:42
subsidize the therapy work we were doing.
51:45
Right.
51:45
But we ran out of time to train and condition our horses.
51:48
Mm-hmm.
51:49
And we sort of panicked a bit.
51:51
And then- I came out of the funk and went, "Oh, I'm an idiot."
51:55
The clients should be the horse trainers.
51:57
That's just the, a no-brainer.
51:59
They, they can totally do this.
52:00
Particularly the horses that already know how to do it, but just need maintenance.
52:04
They need to be lunged.
52:05
They need long reining.
52:06
They need to be- Right â¦ worked in hand.
52:08
There's no reason why an adult autist could not do this.
52:10
There's no reason why the foster kids that we are dealing with, the teenagers,
52:16
there's no reason why they can't do this.
52:17
There's no reason why these PTSD first responders and soldiers that we're
52:22
dealing with can't, can do- They can, of course, they can do this, you know?
52:24
Right.
52:25
And so we train them to do it, and absolutely they could do it.
52:28
Because also these horses could sort of show them how to do it,
52:31
and then some of them got- Right
52:32
quite good at it.
52:33
So then we could say, "Oh, well, why don't you help us, you know, take
52:37
some of this new intake of horses?"
52:38
Some people are just quite natural horse people.
52:41
And because they weren't riding, it was an easier transmission of skills.
52:45
But then we It's very funny actually.
52:50
I was in, I was giving a, a, a talk at Denver University, and I had, was
52:56
talking and being quite frank about how sad I had been about some of
53:00
the not so great things I'd seen in therapy, and more than that- Right
53:03
how one particular big organization had really gone after us and kind of
53:08
attacked us when we appeared on the scene.
53:09
It was the, the biggest organization.
53:11
And I thought- Mm-hmm â¦ "Well, why?
53:13
Like, surely we're all here for the same thing."
53:15
What I didn't know is that the board of that organization
53:18
was sitting in the audience.
53:19
So I got a I got a, I got an email- Oops.
53:23
And the email said, "Should we talk?"
53:26
And I said, "Yeah, of course, absolutely."
53:28
Mm-hmm.
53:29
So we, we have this meeting, and luckily I had Betsy Carl, who I'd also done
53:35
a recent podcast with, who was one of their senior instructors but also
53:38
worked for me, Uh-huh â¦ on the call.
53:40
I said, "Look, you should be on this call because, you know, you're one of them."
53:43
Yeah.
53:43
And I s- they first they said, "Well, we've got no beef, you know, we've never
53:46
said anything bad about you, Rupert."
53:47
I'm like, "Come on.
53:48
Why are we even having this conversation?"
53:50
Right.
53:50
"What I want to know is, why?
53:52
What's your problem?"
53:53
And- Right â¦ after a while they, they go and, "All right.
53:56
Fine.
53:56
We think you're dangerous."
53:58
And I said, "Well," I'm knocking on wood here, "in 15, now 20 years
54:03
of doing this, we've never had an accident, and we work in 40 countries.
54:07
So what are you refer, what danger specifically are you referring to?"
54:11
Right.
54:11
Right?
54:12
And they said, "Well, it's the back riding.
54:14
It's the riding with the kid."
54:16
And I said, "Well, right, but w- we have no accidents doing that."
54:21
And they s- Right â¦ and then it came out.
54:22
Said, "Well, we in our organization, when we did it, we had accidents, so that's
54:28
why we stopped doing it, and that's why we don't think anyone else should do it."
54:30
And then the penny dropped.
54:31
I was like, "Oh, of course you did."
54:34
Right.
54:34
Because you don't know how to prepare a horse, and you don't
54:38
know how to prepare a rider.
54:40
So if you take some donation
54:43
Sanaa Pharayra: horse- And not everybody can do that-
54:45
Rupert Isaacson: Right â¦ too.
54:45
Right.
54:45
No, e- exactly That's like a different, you know- It's,
54:47
it's not your shtick, right?
54:48
Yeah.
54:49
To say that it's unsafe and, and crap means that it's also quite racist
54:53
because you're, you're denying the entire culture of Northern Asia.
54:58
You're denying the entire culture of America west of the Mississippi,
55:01
where most kids grow up in front of mom and dad in west and south.
55:04
Yeah.
55:04
And the entire culture of l- you know, Central and South America.
55:08
That's a bit racist- Yeah â¦ isn't it?
55:09
You know, and like, are you saying that these are, like, shit horse
55:12
cultures when they're clearly not?
55:13
Yeah.
55:14
Right?
55:14
So but I said, "I do get it, and so for you and your organization,
55:18
you probably shouldn't do it.
55:20
Right.
55:20
Absolutely.
55:21
But we are different."
55:22
And that's when luckily Betsy chimed in and said, "Look, the way these guys
55:25
prepare their horses and their riders, it's-" You know, I haven't seen anything
55:29
better, frankly in terms of wellbeing.
55:32
But all, so, so basically we started training our clients to be the
55:37
in-hand classical dressage trainers, and we could say to someone, "Look,
55:41
this horse was broken in service.
55:43
Please would you help me put him back together so that he can-" Uh-huh
55:47
â¦ serve that autistic kid over there?"
55:48
Right.
55:49
And we realized that was its own therapy because- Mm-hmm
55:52
what really gets you through therapy is a sense of purpose,
55:56
and that's what builds resilience.
55:59
And also the BDNF, the growing of a new brain, builds resilience.
56:02
Yeah.
56:03
And you don't, if you say you're traumatized, you don't
56:06
wanna stay traumatized forever.
56:08
Like a hunted deer doesn't need therapy after it gets away from the wolves.
56:12
It will shake off the cortisol and go back to its normal behavior.
56:16
We are very resilient humans.
56:18
I- i- if we weren't, the entire population of the Western world
56:21
would have collapsed after World War II, but it didn't, you know?
56:24
People went on- Right â¦ and thrived.
56:25
So clearly we can do this.
56:28
And so w- we thought, like you did, but if they're not riding the
56:34
horses, will they get the same thing?
56:38
But they're touching the horses all the time.
56:41
Mm-hmm.
56:42
And when you're touching the horses, and when you are transmitting wellbeing,
56:46
mammal to mammal- Mm-hmm â¦ it's called the mammalian caregiving system.
56:50
Mm-hmm.
56:51
So also when Romeo is putting his head in their laps and they are reaching
56:55
out to him and they are stroking him.
56:57
Yeah.
56:57
That's like when you get a massage, or you pet your dog, or you rock your baby.
57:01
Guess what?
57:01
Oxytocin again.
57:04
Right.
57:04
Large amounts of it.
57:06
Perhaps not the same industrial size shot to the gut and up the
57:12
spinal column and vagal nerve that you get with being on the horse.
57:16
But still- â¦ a lot, and you can sustain this over, over time.
57:22
So if you do repeated visits, you know.
57:24
So what a lot of people have found with these animal-assisted therapies
57:28
is that the other thing is people want to complete the therapy.
57:32
People want to show up- Mm-hmm â¦ again and again, 'cause they build a
57:35
relationship with the animal.
57:36
Mm-hmm â¦ whereas with a human thing, they might abandon it.
57:39
They might stop at a certain point.
57:40
And also, humans talk to you and make you feel guilty and make you feel bad.
57:44
Horses and dogs don't, so they just take you as you, as you are.
57:48
There's, there was a really good study done at the University of Bournemouth
57:51
which showed that in domestic violence, I think both perpetrators and victims,
57:57
a five-day intervention with horses over five weeks, like once a week for five
58:01
weeks I think there was a 51% reduction in domestic violence one year later.
58:06
Mm-hmm.
58:07
And that was, like, a really minimal thing.
58:08
So I can totally see how with what you're doing, you're, you're, you're
58:13
basically going around purveying oxytocin.
58:15
And a- as you know, a lot of people with dementia often are
58:19
in a state of high anxiety.
58:21
It's not- Right â¦ it's often not a nice place to be.
58:24
Right
58:25
so you can come in and assuage and ameliorate and unblock the cortisol, and
58:33
so therefore cognition kind of improves, boom, like, in what seems to be a really
58:38
sudden way because there's nothing blocking it anymore, if that makes sense.
58:44
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah, and there ha- there does seem to be with the p-
58:48
individuals that I would say have more advanced cognitive decline
58:51
that let's say are non-verbal-
58:53
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
58:53
Sanaa Pharayra: I feel like I'm also seeing more pronounced interactions coming
58:59
from the horse with those individuals.
59:02
Mm-hmm.
59:02
So that's been kind of interesting as well.
59:05
And like I said, I, I want some help digging into this more and researching it.
59:09
But it's something that has kind of w- a curiosity that I have about it is when you
59:16
take language off the table, and you no longer have the ability to use language
59:21
to communicate, does that maybe free them up to communicate with the horse
59:30
in a d- u- unimpeded in a certain way?
59:32
You know, it's just something that I've been noticing and I keep, I
59:36
keep wondering about because it's almost like the words are getting
59:41
in the way sometimes, you know?
59:43
And then when they can't talk, you know, then you just see
59:47
communication with pure emotion really.
59:51
And it's almost like- I guess
59:52
Rupert Isaacson: you you put your finger on something there.
59:53
Go on.
59:53
Yeah
59:54
Sanaa Pharayra: Iâ¦
59:54
And that's the, that's the kind of the wavelength the horses are on anyways.
59:59
Mm-hmm.
59:59
And it's, it's, you know, and I also kind of feel like the people that can't,
1:00:05
can't use language anymore maybe almost emote more strongly because that's
1:00:11
what they h- can do, 'cause that's a d- coming from a different place, you know?
1:00:15
It's very interesting.
1:00:19
Rupert Isaacson: What stands out from what you said is that you see
1:00:24
the horses making a greater effort- Mm-hmm â¦ to bridge the gap.
1:00:29
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
1:00:31
Rupert Isaacson: I s- you know, I observed this with Betsy in those,
1:00:34
in those sessions, and I've observed it time and again with other horses.
1:00:38
We once had this little boy who had drowned, and he was supposed to be in a,
1:00:42
a state of vegetable, should switchâ¦
1:00:45
You know, they should have switched off the life support.
1:00:47
You know, this is no life, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:00:49
Right.
1:00:49
And they brought him out to us, and and like, God, I don't know.
1:00:52
I don't know if we can do anything here, you know?
1:00:55
Right â¦ and they push him in a wheelchair, and the dude
1:00:56
just doesn't seem to be there.
1:00:58
And, Right â¦ my horse Clou, who was a real, in some ways, a real bastard of
1:01:04
a horse Like, he was the ho- he was the horse that absolutely proved to me that I
1:01:08
do not know how to train a horse, right?
1:01:09
But if he felt like doing it, he was, like, rock solid golden, and he came over.
1:01:16
He spotted this kid- Mm-hmm â¦ as we were just kind of around the front of
1:01:22
the house, just kind of scratching our heads a bit really and shooting the
1:01:26
shit with his parents and caregivers.
1:01:29
He spotted it, and he came over, and he sniffed this boy all over his
1:01:35
body, and then he began to lick him.
1:01:39
Mm-hmm.
1:01:40
And he licked him from head to toe.
1:01:42
Yeah.
1:01:44
And I've seen this happen a few times now, and all I could do
1:01:49
is, like, not be in the way.
1:01:51
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
1:01:52
Rupert Isaacson: But i- it's natural to think then, oh, is
1:01:56
anything actually happening?
1:01:58
But yeah, by the end of that session, the boy indicated a couple
1:02:02
of things, and for his caregivers, this was, like, a huge deal.
1:02:07
Mm-hmm.
1:02:07
So what is going on?
1:02:10
And I'd invite, you know, if, if you're watching this on YouTube
1:02:13
and you've had similar things, this is to people watching, if you had
1:02:16
similar things, put it in the comments below, and I'd, I'd like to know your
1:02:19
speculations of what you think is going on when this happens, when you seeâ¦
1:02:24
'Cause w- if we're, if those of us horse people who've been brought up telling
1:02:27
horses what to do, and horses are usually honestly pretty happy to do it, you know,
1:02:31
particularly if it's kind of fun, but it's at a bit of a one-way communication.
1:02:37
And then we see them do what you describe.
1:02:45
Why?
1:02:46
Why are they doing that?
1:02:48
Why are they trying to bridge a gap?
1:02:51
So what do you think, Cinna?
1:02:54
Sanaa Pharayra: I don't know that I have it all figured out, but I,
1:02:56
but I like to try to, you know, I like to try to figure it out.
1:03:00
And one thought I have had is does language make our minds
1:03:09
really busy in a way that maybe makes us a little less present?
1:03:13
You know, if, if we could imagine going back to a time before humans
1:03:18
had language, and how there â¦ We still would've had communication
1:03:24
before we had language, right?
1:03:26
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:03:26
Sanaa Pharayra: And we would've been able to communicate with each other,
1:03:29
but how different would that have been cognitively because we think in language.
1:03:36
And it, and it makes me wonder with the co- 'Cause, 'cause from what I've been
1:03:41
learning, you know, there's a certain part of the brain that governs language,
1:03:46
you know, that is affected kind of early on with Alzheimer's and other dementias,
1:03:50
depending on which kind you have.
1:03:52
So if you lose that, you don't necessarily lose everything, though.
1:03:57
You could, you could still have â¦ Th- this is another thing I didn't know
1:04:01
very much about Alzheimer's or dementia when I started doing this, and I
1:04:06
kinda thought that when people got those conditions that they just slowly
1:04:11
drifted away until they weren't there anymore and it was just their body.
1:04:15
But that's not what I have seen s- as I've done this work.
1:04:18
They, they are still there.
1:04:21
They just don't necessarily have access to the same thing
1:04:25
that they had access to before.
1:04:27
So it ju- it just makes me wonder a lot about language, and if there's, like,
1:04:31
a, a primal level of communication that maybe we revert back to once we
1:04:37
lose language, or never had language in the case of your son early on,
1:04:42
you know, before he started talking.
1:04:44
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just â¦ Go ahead.
1:04:44
I'm, I'm just doing a little bit of brain research on, on Google here, and then-
1:04:48
Yeah â¦ if you'll just keep talking.
1:04:49
Sanaa Pharayra: And that that is how animals are, right?
1:04:54
And that maybe it's a more natural way for them to communicate with us.
1:04:59
I, I, you know â¦ This, this is just one thought.
1:05:02
I have lots of other ones, but this is just one thought because I have
1:05:05
been seeing something more pronounced with the non-verbal individuals.
1:05:10
But it, but it does seem like there may be something kind of primal.
1:05:13
A- and in all these conversations we're having, Rupert, like, another
1:05:17
thing I always go back to is the fact that we don't, as humans, don't
1:05:22
acknowledge the fact that we are animals.
1:05:25
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I do.
1:05:28
Sanaa Pharayra: Oh, me too.
1:05:28
I know I'm a stinky monkey.
1:05:29
Yeah, but yeah, yeah.
1:05:29
But, you know, that's right.
1:05:30
But we, we really need to acknowledge it.
1:05:33
Like, it- Yeah â¦ we, we talk about it like these a- the
1:05:35
animals are over here, right?
1:05:37
Yeah, sure.
1:05:37
And then we're, like, you know, the civilized pe- we're
1:05:39
intellectuals, you know?
1:05:41
And- But like we are a- we are animals too, you know?
1:05:45
And,
1:05:46
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:05:46
â¦ Sanaa Pharayra: maybe, you know, it would do us some good to remember
1:05:49
that and to go back to, to that more.
1:05:53
Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't agree more.
1:05:54
I'd like to hearâ¦
1:05:56
i've got a couple of things- Okay â¦ to say around that.
1:06:00
But you said you've got lots of thoughts.
1:06:02
Mm-hmm.
1:06:03
So if that's only one area of speculation, what are your others?
1:06:08
Sanaa Pharayra: Well, there, these are, this might be sort of in a random
1:06:11
order, but another thing that I was gonna tell you that I've learned when
1:06:15
you were talking about when you were talking about the horses that you've
1:06:18
gotten for your program that came in and were kind of cranky and stiff,
1:06:22
and you guys rehabilitated them, trained them, and then they became,
1:06:25
you know, happy at, to do their job.
1:06:27
Another epiphany that I've had throughout this process is that horses can be
1:06:32
trained for emotional engagement.
1:06:34
So- That was something that would, would have never occurred to me, and
1:06:39
I've learned that from Romeo and Ziggy because, and, and it's interesting
1:06:43
because I've been around many different disciplines of competitive riding.
1:06:48
Mm-hmm.
1:06:48
Like, w- s- spanning the English world and the Western world.
1:06:53
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:06:53
Sanaa Pharayra: S- po- and I'm, I'm gonna even throw polo in
1:06:55
there, race horses, all of it.
1:06:57
So when you have, like, an experienced show jumper, for example, w- that
1:07:02
goes in to do the jump off, when they hear the buzzer go off and the
1:07:06
timer's starting, they know, right?
1:07:09
The horse knows it's time to jump off, it's time to go faster,
1:07:11
it's time to turn tighter.
1:07:13
Race horses know when it's time to, you know-
1:07:16
Rupert Isaacson: Go
1:07:16
â¦ Sanaa Pharayra: turn it on and run, you know, run and open
1:07:19
up as, as much as they can.
1:07:21
Polo ponies know how to race to the ball, you know?
1:07:24
Like, Yeah â¦ rop- roping horses race the steer.
1:07:27
So they all learn- Absolutely
1:07:29
what it is that their job is, so to speak.
1:07:32
Well, I've seen, I've witnessed Romeo and Ziggy learning what their job is as well.
1:07:39
W- which is interesting, because I do, the training that I do with them outside
1:07:44
of the therapy work is mostly in-hand, like, maneuverability-type training.
1:07:51
You know, like teaching them toâ¦
1:07:53
And I, I usually just work them in a, in a, like a little rope halter and there's
1:07:57
no need to use bits or anything with them.
1:07:59
So they, but they do lateral work.
1:08:01
They do leg yields, they do side passes, they do shoulder in, turn on
1:08:04
the haunches, turn on the forehand.
1:08:05
I practice backing them through lines of poles, because I want them to be
1:08:09
super maneuverable and, and light.
1:08:12
I don't want to have to ever pull hard on them, you know?
1:08:14
So they go undergo all that type of training.
1:08:18
But when they're in the therapy setting, the training is used to put them in
1:08:23
the right position to interact with the person as effectively as possible.
1:08:27
S- after they're in that position, then it's up to them to have an exchange.
1:08:33
But I've seen them learn- what their job is.
1:08:37
And they don't respond to every person the same way either.
1:08:41
You know, they, they definitely, I think, respond, seem to respond better.
1:08:46
That's why I'm s- saying the people that are, have more advanced cognitive
1:08:50
decline, that m- and maybe it's because they're, like, quieter,
1:08:55
their energy level's quieter, they're more still, they move more slowly.
1:08:59
Th- but it does seem like the horses respond to them better.
1:09:02
Like, not that, you know, even than the people that are more alert.
1:09:07
Rupert Isaacson: So like- When you say better, can you define better?
1:09:09
Sanaa Pharayra: More demonstrative, more emotionally outgoing, where
1:09:14
almost like they're seeking the person out to interact with them.
1:09:19
Whereas some of the other people that are maybe more excited to see Romeo and
1:09:23
Ziggy, they go to, they go to them more.
1:09:26
You know what I mean?
1:09:27
So I guess suppose the horse doesn't really have to come to them.
1:09:30
But it, it's a curiosity.
1:09:33
I would say I see curiosity in them.
1:09:35
Like- Mm â¦ what's going on with this person?
1:09:38
Let's go over and check it out, kind of a thing.
1:09:42
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah Okay.
1:09:47
What springs to mind is again, neuroplasticity.
1:09:53
If you're doing all that groundwork with those horses and all those laterals again,
1:09:58
you're engaging their vestibular systems.
1:09:59
You're, they're crossing the midlines, so you're gonna get
1:10:02
that BDNF effect I was- Right
1:10:04
talking about.
1:10:04
So they, their horse's own cognition grows.
1:10:08
And one of the things I didn't talk about, but it, this is a natural way
1:10:13
in, is it's not just the horses get more cooperative and happier, it's like
1:10:20
they become emotionally intelligent.
1:10:23
And the same thing, like they can be- they can begin to not just
1:10:27
figure stuff out, but handle theirâ¦
1:10:29
Not just figure shit out, but handle their shit.
1:10:31
And the same is true, we find, in Movement Method.
1:10:34
So for example, kids classrooms that adopt Movement Method there have be- there was
1:10:40
a s- there have been multiple studies done on it now, and there was a PhD done on it
1:10:45
in 2024 through Grand Canyon University.
1:10:49
But other multiple, m- you know, at least eight or nine other studies.
1:10:54
But we also got the reports from the teachers saying after about 10
1:10:58
weeks of doing Movement Method stuff, which is not dissimilar, but it's
1:11:03
combined with learning, th- the kids went from a them and us kind of a
1:11:09
confrontational, normal relationship between kids and teachers, and went
1:11:15
to a sort of cooperative relationship.
1:11:18
And after about 10 weeks, we got reports saying, "Honestly, we don't
1:11:21
need them in the classroom anymore.
1:11:23
We can just give them the assignment, tell them how to do the project, then
1:11:26
they divide up into little groups, and they go off into the areas of the
1:11:28
school that they find the best for them for their learning environment.
1:11:32
Some go outside, some go to quiet corners, and we don't need to supervise it."
1:11:37
Mm-hmm.
1:11:37
It's like they become emotionally intelligent.
1:11:40
And I thought, "Well, this is interesting."
1:11:42
So I went to look at one of these schools, 'cause I hadn't actually
1:11:45
looked at my own method in schools.
1:11:46
I'd just-
1:11:47
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah
1:11:47
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: trained some people to do it.
1:11:49
And I went to the school in Northern Germany, and I was, I walked through
1:11:54
about five or six rooms, which were just full of kids of all ages, all clustered
1:11:58
together in little groups working on projects without any supervision.
1:12:02
And then I went into an actual classroom, and these two little Arab
1:12:05
boys, Syrian refugees, pulled me aside.
1:12:09
Said, "Oh, you speak English.
1:12:10
We're learning English.
1:12:12
Let's show you how we learn English."
1:12:13
They, and they pulled me into the corridor and showed me how they had
1:12:16
concocted a dice game with a hopscotch game- Mm-hmm â¦ by themselves to
1:12:22
learn English through where the dice landed and how many hops you did.
1:12:28
And this was my method, kind of, being shown back to me by
1:12:33
kids who had no idea who I was.
1:12:36
And I, I like, I started crying.
1:12:38
I was like, "Jesus, I, I have no idea."
1:12:40
You know?
1:12:41
But I, I think once one gets into metacognition,
1:12:45
and that's any brain, right?
1:12:47
That's an equine brain, a human brain, a dog brain.
1:12:51
You also get w- w- what is emotional intelligence really?
1:12:56
Emotional intelligence is sort of compassion.
1:12:58
Mm-hmm.
1:12:58
So if a horse is in a sort of top-down instruction kind of a lifestyle, does it
1:13:06
need to develop compassion for its human?
1:13:11
Or does the human need to demonstrate more compassion to the horse because of
1:13:15
the demands that the human is making?
1:13:18
I would posit that what you've been doing with your horses, 'cause
1:13:22
it's not just Romeo and Ziggy, I think it's others too, right?
1:13:25
Mm-hmm.
1:13:25
Is you are creating that emotional intelligence in them.
1:13:29
You put it there yourself.
1:13:30
You said you can train horses y- to, â¦ How did you put it?
1:13:33
You, you can train horses to be emotionally, Engaged â¦ engaged, right?
1:13:38
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
1:13:38
Rupert Isaacson: That really is a type of compassion.
1:13:40
And so then c- is it, is what they're doing when they encounter these- more
1:13:46
far gone individuals, human individuals.
1:13:50
Are they recognizing suffering and, of some kind, and doing what any
1:13:59
mammal does within the mammalian caregiving system to try and assuage it?
1:14:05
And it's, I would speculate that that probably is what's going on.
1:14:10
Yeah â¦ you also talked about verbal and non-verbal.
1:14:13
Of course, we know that horses vocalize, and we know that, like many animals, they
1:14:18
often vocalize at, at audi- audi- audible ranges that our human ear can't hear.
1:14:23
Like, so, you know, elephants do these low frequency ones that go over
1:14:28
many, many kilometers and, and horses apparently do something quite similar.
1:14:33
But we have this larynx.
1:14:35
We don't just vocalize.
1:14:36
We do rap, we do poetry, we write rock songs.
1:14:38
We do what we're doing here.
1:14:40
And we, that allows us to strategize, which makes us top predator.
1:14:44
So it's both our savior and our, our downfall a bit, 'cause we're
1:14:49
victims of our own success perhaps.
1:14:51
Your point about- Well, you
1:14:53
Sanaa Pharayra: just said something im- interesting about strategizing.
1:14:56
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:14:57
Sanaa Pharayra: Because there is an element of dis- dishonesty
1:15:02
to, to strategizing in a way.
1:15:05
I mean, it, like, you know, the predatory mindset.
1:15:10
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:15:10
Sanaa Pharayra: You know?
1:15:10
And again, when, once you take that away, horses, as we know, can read
1:15:19
people very accurately, you know?
1:15:21
So, so, I think that's part of w- one reason why, you know, the therapy work
1:15:27
with them is so interesting, Is that you kinda can't bullshit them, so to speak.
1:15:34
But I think- Yeah â¦ again, what I wonder is when you lose that veil of language
1:15:39
or you didn't have it to begin with, if that puts you in a different state.
1:15:44
Rupert Isaacson: Puts you in a state of vulnerability that
1:15:45
is similar to theirs, as- Do
1:15:47
Sanaa Pharayra: you think it's more honest, though?
1:15:49
Do you think it's less self-deceiving?
1:15:51
Well,
1:15:51
Rupert Isaacson: honest, honest honesty and deception are all
1:15:54
through the eye of the beholder.
1:15:55
So- Mm â¦ humans are not the only animals that strategize, right?
1:16:00
All predators- Right
1:16:01
all predators strategize.
1:16:03
So a dog- Right â¦ a wolf pack is not morally wrong for creating a
1:16:09
ruse that makes the deer run that way so that the, the, there's actually
1:16:16
a, an ambush for them over there.
1:16:17
And lions are not morally corrupt because they do the same thing.
1:16:24
Right.
1:16:24
They're just honestly using the tools that they need to use to survive.
1:16:30
But what I wonder, and you make a difference between, say,
1:16:35
dog therapy and horse therapy.
1:16:36
Mm-hmm.
1:16:37
So dogs are n- are not unlike us.
1:16:39
They strategize.
1:16:41
They form relationships and alliances based around getting food.
1:16:47
I suppose you could, I suppose you could say horses do.
1:16:49
But horses basically are our prey.
1:16:52
We are the prey.
1:16:52
Sanaa Pharayra: Well, dogs evolved to please humans, and so I think that it's,
1:16:56
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
1:16:57
â¦ Sanaa Pharayra: less, less â¦ I don't think it's, like, unusual to
1:17:02
have a dog come up to you that you've never met before and be affectionate.
1:17:05
Yeah.
1:17:05
Right?
1:17:05
That's not unusual.
1:17:06
Like, it, it's sort of like you expect that.
1:17:09
Yeah.
1:17:09
I think it's more rare if a dog's not friendly than it is
1:17:12
You know, most dogs- Yeah, yeah, right â¦ will come up to somebody
1:17:13
wagging their tail and you know, wanna lick you or whatever.
1:17:16
But I think when a person has an emotional engagement with a horse, there's a
1:17:20
level of awe that they experience.
1:17:25
Rupert Isaacson: Good word.
1:17:26
Tell us about awe
1:17:28
Sanaa Pharayra: I, I call it the awe factor.
1:17:31
That's what I see in these people's faces is they're in awe.
1:17:35
That it sort of shocks them out of maybe a mundane existence, especially,
1:17:40
especially as we start to work more with people that are living in homes, you know,
1:17:46
permanently in memory care facilities that are locked down or whatever.
1:17:51
I see it on their faces when we c- bring a horse in.
1:17:54
You just see them all of a sudden like This look of surprise of like, "What?
1:18:00
A horse is here?"
1:18:02
You know what I mean?
1:18:04
And it, it's kinda almost like maybe snaps them, snaps you out of, like,
1:18:10
rumination or withdrawal, â¦ That- this- the best way I have to describe
1:18:16
it at the moment is to tell you that I see awe, that people having an a-
1:18:20
you know, being in awe of the horses.
1:18:23
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:18:23
And, and there's a lot of interesting studies being done into awe, Yeah
1:18:27
at the moment.
1:18:28
And it's true that the human's natural state is to be in a semi-constant state of
1:18:34
awe, Yeah â¦ if you are living in nature.
1:18:37
I've been lucky enough to w- live and work with hunter-gatherer
1:18:40
peoples, mostly in- Yeah â¦ the Kalahari area of Southern Africa.
1:18:44
And y- y- y- it's just a constant state of awe because there's the wide
1:18:49
landscape, there's the great sky, there's very powerful, strong nature.
1:18:55
There's an elephant.
1:18:57
There's a lion.
1:18:58
There's â¦ This is all pretty awesome.
1:19:00
Sanaa Pharayra: Well, and we, we, we as human animals evolved to live that way.
1:19:05
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
1:19:05
Sanaa Pharayra: But, but our society has evolved so quickly- Yeah â¦ into
1:19:12
this urban state that n- we're in, and now on the cusp of this AI revolution-
1:19:17
Uh-huh â¦ that our brains, there's no way our brains- Digital dementia, yeah
1:19:21
have, have, could've caught up, you know, have caught up to this.
1:19:24
Absolutely.
1:19:24
And I, and I think a lot of the issues that we have in our society is because
1:19:28
we're living in an unnatural way.
1:19:30
Well- And one of-
1:19:32
Rupert Isaacson: Totally agree.
1:19:32
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
1:19:33
Go on
1:19:34
â¦ Sanaa Pharayra: one of the things that I feel like, you know, Daryl and I talk
1:19:38
about this a lot, is that we feel like we're bringing nature to people that
1:19:42
don't get to experience nature anymore.
1:19:44
You know?
1:19:45
Like, that the horse is sort of a symbol of that.
1:19:47
Yes.
1:19:48
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it's so true.
1:19:50
And whenever you examine, like, language around horses, t- back to language again.
1:19:55
Mm.
1:19:55
But the, the, the vocabulary that we use around horses outside of
1:19:58
equestrian vocabulary- Mm-hmm â¦ it's always a positive, right?
1:20:01
That guy's a real stud.
1:20:03
You know.
1:20:04
They're always about beauty- Yeah â¦ passion, speed, freedom.
1:20:10
Hold your horses, you know?
1:20:12
Y- there's just so many sayings and synonyms
1:20:16
that we use that have their, That we've been observing horses for
1:20:22
millennia- Right â¦ and admiring them.
1:20:25
And somehow- Well, I was
1:20:26
Sanaa Pharayra: gonna say, there's a, there's a genetic,
1:20:28
there could be a genetic memory component to all of this as well.
1:20:31
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
1:20:32
Indeed.
1:20:33
In fact, that w- takhin weird Mongolian word program I was talking about-
1:20:39
Sanaa Pharayra: Mm-hmm
1:20:39
Rupert Isaacson: it's actually the Mongolian word for the wild horse,
1:20:43
what we would call the Przewalski's horse that was never domesticated.
1:20:47
Okay.
1:20:47
And they call it takhin, and it means
1:20:51
Sanaa Pharayra: honored one.
1:20:51
Oh,
1:20:51
Rupert Isaacson: interesting.
1:20:51
Honored one or revered one.
1:20:54
Sanaa Pharayra: Uh-huh.
1:20:54
Rupert Isaacson: Honoring the essential wild nature of the horse.
1:20:57
Uh-huh.
1:20:58
I think there's something about horses that reminds us of the
1:21:00
wild nature of ourselves in, in the good way, in the best of it.
1:21:04
The, as you said- Right â¦ that sort of awe way.
1:21:06
'Cause horses do inspire awe, you're absolutely right.
1:21:10
What's interesting to me too is that given that horses are naturally afraid of
1:21:14
us, like all herbivores- Mm-hmm â¦ they have to be because- Right â¦ you
1:21:18
know, you love Romeo, but if your kids were starving, you'd eat Romeo.
1:21:24
You wouldn't be happy about it, but you would want him as your â¦ Because
1:21:28
you'd have to prioritize your children.
1:21:30
And i- in the back of every horse's mind, they sort of know that about us.
1:21:34
Mm.
1:21:35
And so they have a good reason to be a bit skeptical.
1:21:38
And then what you're describing when they go and do this kind of extra
1:21:44
desi- you know, effort to make- Mm-hmm
1:21:47
this bridge across that, maybe they're also correctly divining that
1:21:52
this monkey probably won't eat them.
1:21:55
But nonetheless, why should they care from a monkey?
1:21:58
Because monkeys are trouble for horses, yet they do.
1:22:03
Mm-hmm â¦ I observed that with Betsy.
1:22:07
And as you say, yes, it seems to be the most vulnerable among us
1:22:11
that they reach out to in this way.
1:22:14
What I wonder is-
1:22:19
Is it going back to the work of people like Rupert Sheldrake?
1:22:22
I don't know if you're familiar with him, the British physicist that was
1:22:27
basically kicked out of mainstream physics because he dared to suggest that,
1:22:33
Sanaa Pharayra: Is he the one that did the study on dogs?
1:22:35
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:22:35
Sanaa Pharayra: On dogs.
1:22:36
He did the study.
1:22:36
Knowing their owners w- I have that book.
1:22:39
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:22:40
To all the listeners and watchers, we won't go into it here, but
1:22:44
look up Rupert Sheldrake dogs.
1:22:46
Okay, he's an eminent professor, but they cru-
1:22:49
Sanaa Pharayra: Like, Dogs Who Know When Their Owners Are Coming
1:22:51
Home, I think is what the book's
1:22:52
Rupert Isaacson: called.
1:22:52
Exactly, and that dogs not only knew when their owners were, like,
1:22:57
driving up the driveway, they knew when they had left work.
1:23:02
How did they know that 20, 30, 50 kilometers away?
1:23:08
How did they know?
1:23:10
And so he came up with this idea of morphic resonance, which is that there's
1:23:13
a field, there's just one general field of consciousness, and everything is an
1:23:19
offshoot, so everything's part of it.
1:23:20
Similar to you go to the ocean, you see a wave.
1:23:24
You notice the wave as its own thing, but you also know that it's connected
1:23:28
to the entire ocean, and when the wave breaks it just goes back to the ocean.
1:23:31
And you know this about evaporation with water.
1:23:34
The rain that hits you is the rain that hits you, but it's also part of the ocean,
1:23:38
but it's â¦ And if you by extension take that into everything, then why would there
1:23:44
not be a resonant field of consciousness?
1:23:47
Yeah.
1:23:47
So then he had the temerity to suggest that, you know, consciousness
1:23:51
might not be a product of the human brain, but the other way around.
1:23:55
Right.
1:23:55
But I think that when you are looking at something like what you're seeing
1:24:00
with Romeo, is that not a sort of- Perhaps one can't empirically prove
1:24:08
it, but what else could it be?
1:24:13
Sanaa Pharayra: Well, but this is, this kinda goes back to what I was trying to
1:24:16
say about language, is I wonder if we have lost the ability to tap into those-
1:24:22
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:24:22
â¦ Sanaa Pharayra: I'm gonna just use the term, quote, unquote, "other
1:24:25
senses" that we used to have.
1:24:30
That somehow when we got language and the over intellectualization
1:24:36
and that we learned to rely so much on that, that we lost some of these
1:24:41
other abilities that animals have, that still have, have always had.
1:24:45
And we did too.
1:24:48
Rupert Isaacson: Actually, we still do.
1:24:49
Remember that there's lots of people on the planet who
1:24:52
don't live like you and I live.
1:24:55
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
1:24:56
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:24:56
Who tap into those fields of consciousness every day.
1:24:59
Right.
1:24:59
Like if you are a, a bushman hunter gatherer in the Kalahari, you have to know
1:25:04
how to become the animal that you hunt.
1:25:07
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
1:25:07
Rupert Isaacson: Or you will go very hungry.
1:25:09
And you need to know how to talk to the plants in the Amazon, or you're not- Yeah
1:25:15
â¦ going to discover that this one and this one and that one create ayahuasca.
1:25:19
But if you do it with that one, that one, and that one, and boil them for even
1:25:24
20 minutes too long, it will kill you.
1:25:26
You don't do that by trial and error.
1:25:28
And how do you, how do you learn that this type of mushroom, blah, blah.
1:25:32
You don't do it by wiping out your entire clan so that one person- â¦ thinks,
1:25:37
"Oh, I guess it's that mushroom.
1:25:38
But hey, look, there's no one to breed with now."
1:25:40
Right.
1:25:40
So that knowledge has gone away.
1:25:42
No, no.
1:25:43
People have beenâ¦
1:25:45
are still doing this.
1:25:47
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
1:25:47
Rupert Isaacson: But not in our society.
1:25:49
Yeah.
1:25:49
Or not many in our society.
1:25:51
Some.
1:25:52
Yeah.
1:25:53
Sanaa Pharayra: And we, we evolved to be more, to, to live more that way, right?
1:25:58
Mm-hmm.
1:25:58
I mean, you know.
1:26:00
So i- i- yeah.
1:26:02
I mean, I think it kind of goes, to me it kinda goes back to that same thing
1:26:06
that there you know, is this just a primal nature there that, like, m- is
1:26:12
connecting with the animal and recog- Mm
1:26:15
I also, I see, I also feel like I see recognition, like on- Mm â¦ the
1:26:19
horse's face and the person's face.
1:26:22
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:26:25
Go on.
1:26:26
Sanaa Pharayra: Tell me more about that I just, it's like they're re-
1:26:28
like, you know, again, it's like they're, they're experi- they're
1:26:33
definitely experiencing awe.
1:26:35
I definitely think an emotional encounter with a horse is, is more
1:26:40
powerful than a dog because it's something different and unique.
1:26:43
Obviously a lot of older people too did grow up on farms and have been
1:26:47
around horses, so there's that as well, that it could be bringing, you know,
1:26:51
it do- it does bring back memories.
1:26:53
There, we've had a lot of people share childhood memories
1:26:56
with us involving horses.
1:26:58
I guess the thing, I guess the thing that I've realized too is
1:27:03
that when y- just because you lose the ability to use language doesn't
1:27:07
mean that you're not still there.
1:27:09
And I didn't really know that.
1:27:10
Like, I didn'tâ¦
1:27:11
It was something I've never really thought a lot about.
1:27:14
And that there's other ways of connecting that are, that remain.
1:27:19
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:27:20
Yes, because we are the storytelling ape.
1:27:23
Sanaa Pharayra: Mm-hmm.
1:27:24
Rupert Isaacson: It's very difficult for us when we encounter people that can no
1:27:26
longer tell story or can't from an early age, like a non-verbal kid to not see
1:27:33
them as some other species, because it really defines our species, the larynx.
1:27:37
Right.
1:27:38
Right.
1:27:39
However, what's also really interesting about it is, you know, when you say,
1:27:43
"Well, does language get in the way?"
1:27:45
And I'm thinking about people like, you know, my Bushman friends.
1:27:47
They're highly articulate.
1:27:48
They use a lot of language.
1:27:49
In fact, their language is really evolved.
1:27:52
They have these phonetic clicks that they use.
1:27:54
Uh-huh.
1:27:54
So they don't just use consonants, but, you know, for example, the,
1:27:58
the one of the healers that healed my son, well, Unta is his name.
1:28:02
You know?
1:28:03
And the, the healers, the, the Bushmen that I'm actually partially related
1:28:07
to by marriage- Uh-huh â¦ that's a
1:28:11
whole other story.
1:28:11
Are called the â¦). And, you know, they, they, have like six phonetic
1:28:13
clicks in among all the other thing.
1:28:14
So they're really evolved with language, but the language doesn't stand in the
1:28:18
way of them being able to contact the ancestors in a shamanic trance state or
1:28:24
talk to plants or talk to animals, because they're not using it for separation.
1:28:29
Mm.
1:28:30
So they're not trying to define themselves outside of that.
1:28:36
Mm.
1:28:37
In fact, they're using language to do the opposite, I'd say.
1:28:40
And w- what is healing but conflict resolution, right?
1:28:47
So you have a, you have a dilemma.
1:28:49
Let's say y- you have dementia.
1:28:52
Mm-hmm.
1:28:53
That to some degree is a dilemma, and it, it presents problems.
1:28:58
Or you're a, an autistic child that cannot speak and cannot communicate your needs.
1:29:03
That does create problems.
1:29:04
Mm-hmm.
1:29:04
Right?
1:29:04
We even know with basic toddlers, when they can't communicate
1:29:07
their needs, even if they're neurotypical, they throw a tantrum.
1:29:09
The, the frustration is so great.
1:29:12
Right.
1:29:12
That'sâ¦
1:29:12
So what you're observing is suffering, really.
1:29:14
That's what's causing the tantrum.
1:29:17
So what's the opposite of suffering?
1:29:20
The opposite of suffering is joy, is wellbeing.
1:29:23
Right.
1:29:23
And can language be used to that?
1:29:25
Of course.
1:29:26
That is story.
1:29:28
Story is always about the resolution of conflict.
1:29:31
It's â¦ The hero's journey is always result- resolution.
1:29:35
Mm-hmm.
1:29:36
Or the heroine's journey.
1:29:40
But we have evolved since agriculture languages of separation
1:29:48
rather than languages of unity.
1:29:50
So if you use language to evolve a dance that lets you talk to elephants and then
1:29:57
you train other people how to do that dance that lets you talk to elephants-
1:30:00
Yeah â¦ there is something called the elephant dance in the Kalahari.
1:30:04
You're going to use language, but you're going to use it to try to
1:30:09
connect with elephants rather than to separate yourself from elephants
1:30:14
and kill them and get their ivory.
1:30:16
Mm-hmm.
1:30:17
You're gonna tap into some element of e- elephant that is about healing.
1:30:22
But I think what, what I, what I've observed is it goes two ways.
1:30:25
So shape-shifting in shamanic contexts, people often wonder what
1:30:29
that is and, like, i- is it like American Werewolf in London where,
1:30:33
like, you actually sprout hair and, you know, a spotty coat and a tail?
1:30:37
No.
1:30:38
I've seen it happen.
1:30:39
So when Besa, who was the healer I was closest to, would take on leopard energy,
1:30:44
he could call a leopard out of the bush while he was in a state of trance,
1:30:48
which is â¦ Imagine you trying to call a cougar out of the bush right now.
1:30:52
You're i- sitting in Oregon.
1:30:53
Go outside the back door, call for a cougar.
1:30:55
It's not gonna happen.
1:30:56
But these guys can.
1:30:58
And then why would the leopard come?
1:31:01
Why did he want to make contact with the leopard?
1:31:03
So he wanted to make contact with the leopard so he could go inside its body,
1:31:07
borrow its nervous system to go a distance and take a certain energy, spiritual
1:31:11
energy, that the leopard has to go and catch- the wrongdoing that has been
1:31:18
inside this person they're trying to heal.
1:31:21
Sometimes he might use lion energy.
1:31:22
Sometimes he might use, you know â¦ And I saw him fall i- call a leopard
1:31:28
out of the bush, fall into trance.
1:31:31
Whenâ¦
1:31:31
It's the other way around.
1:31:32
Fall into trance, then his people sat with him and said, "The leopard will come now."
1:31:37
And the leopard came, and then went off on its mission, and they sat with
1:31:42
him for as many hours as it took for the leopard to come back into the
1:31:47
area and him to regain consciousness.
1:31:50
Many people who've worked in situations like that have seen that.
1:31:53
So he was trying to connect with leopard, but leopard wanted to cooperate.
1:31:56
Leopard also wanted to be connected with.
1:31:56
And you, what you've described with Romeo and Ziggy, them wanting to
1:32:09
bridge this gap in order to create healing, to resolve conflict, to resolve
1:32:16
a dilemma across species, because we're all part of one resonant morphic field.
1:32:22
But perhaps when the habit of using divisive language, language that separates
1:32:29
us from the world around us rather than integrating us with the world around
1:32:34
us, perhaps when that falls away and leaves, as you say, the language of
1:32:40
emotion perhaps then it's easy for animals to do what they actually are
1:32:45
supposed to do anyway, which is make contact with us in this way, just in the
1:32:50
same way that we make contact with them.
1:32:52
Mm-hmm.
1:32:52
Because, you know, animals will come to humans for healing.
1:32:55
You know, Right â¦ lo- lots of stories about, you know, lions with a, you know,
1:32:59
thorn in the paw coming to someone.
1:33:01
Right.
1:33:01
All that.
1:33:02
This e- this exists.
1:33:03
This goes on.
1:33:04
This is not just a fanciful story.
1:33:06
So I just wonder if, if what you're doing is actually creating
1:33:09
a, a effectively a shamanic experience in an old people's home.
1:33:13
And when I, I looked at, I listened to your description.
1:33:16
What you said is, I made a little note of this, "They have a circle of chairs."
1:33:20
Yeah.
1:33:22
"The horse is in the middle, and then the horse goes to each person for
1:33:27
a couple of, for a minute or two."
1:33:29
Right.
1:33:29
"Gives that person what they need."
1:33:31
That's, you just described a Bushmen shamanic ritual.
1:33:34
The healer, people gather in a circle.
1:33:37
The healer is at the fire.
1:33:38
The healer dances around the fire until they go into a
1:33:40
state of altered consciousness.
1:33:42
Then they go to each individual that's around the fire and give
1:33:45
that person what they need.
1:33:46
Take out something- Mm-hmm â¦ put something in.
1:33:48
And perhaps th- perhaps that trance dance has been called for a particular
1:33:52
individual who's got a particular problem.
1:33:54
But everyone who's gathered there- Mm-hmm â¦ will get attention from the shaman.
1:33:58
And I just, you know, you described what was going on with, with,
1:34:01
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah
1:34:02
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: Romeo.
1:34:02
It's like, well, what is, what i- what is it but that?
1:34:08
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah, and it, there's and that is, like, our group setting.
1:34:12
That's the way we do our group visits.
1:34:14
And maybe there's a collective energy too, because everyone can see what's
1:34:19
going on, you know, because it's a circle.
1:34:21
We did recently, though, start visiting people, room-bound residents where we'd
1:34:26
go into their rooms and they'd be in their bed, and we'd- Mm â¦ bring the horses,
1:34:30
and the horses could put their heads over the bed and visit people that way.
1:34:34
And definitely that is also equally profound as well.
1:34:39
Obviously we're just trying to find as many ways as possible r- as r- of
1:34:43
reaching people, you know, that wouldn't be able to have the experience otherwise.
1:34:48
Yeah, I mean, I think it, it, all those things could be possible.
1:34:52
And you know, this, this is kind of a side note, but the timing for me of this
1:34:58
whole adventure coming, like, kind of a, a, I would describe it as unfurling.
1:35:05
That Romeo Roadshow has, process has been, like, this unfurling th- as it
1:35:10
was not anything that was ever planned, and it kind of just unfolded in front
1:35:15
of me, and one thing led to another.
1:35:17
The timing of when it came into my life personally was very interesting, because
1:35:21
I had reached a point, I'd done a lot of the, you know, professional equestrian
1:35:25
world for a long time, a lot of showing, training, coaching, all that stuff.
1:35:28
And I had reached a point where I wanted to do something different.
1:35:33
I, I knew I wanted to continue working with horses, but I wasn't
1:35:38
feeling that that was the direction I wanted to go in any- anymore.
1:35:41
And I was looking for something.
1:35:44
Like, I was trying to figure out what my new path was gonna be.
1:35:47
And I'd been kind of in the works of trying to figure
1:35:50
it out for a period of time.
1:35:51
It'd been a while, like several years.
1:35:54
And I had tried some different things, but nothing really- Nothing really
1:35:58
kind of like caught my passion and focus, and this came into my life,
1:36:05
something that I did not expect, that I never in a million years would
1:36:09
have thought I would be doing this.
1:36:11
And as it unfolded in front of me, I just felt like I, I had to keep doing it.
1:36:18
It meant so much to people, and I knew someone needed to do it that
1:36:22
knew what they were doing to make it safe and all, all that stuff.
1:36:26
And it was kind of like perfect timing, too.
1:36:29
So one of my one of my beloved grooms who helped us in the early
1:36:35
stages with Romeo, he said to me one day, like a little ways into theâ¦
1:36:41
It was before, it was before we really started doing the work with seniors.
1:36:45
He said "You know, Sanae, I think of you, of you as like an angel in Romeo's life."
1:36:51
And in a way it's like there isâ¦
1:36:55
This might sound really out there to some people, but like I have thought
1:36:59
multiple times that maybe he's returning the favor to me, too, like showing
1:37:06
me like this other path, you know.
1:37:08
So and that does get into all of that spir- way more spiritual realm.
1:37:15
But I never would have come up with this on my own.
1:37:18
I ne- and I'm a, and I do think I'm a relatively open-minded person,
1:37:22
you know, and I'm an idea person.
1:37:24
But it's, that's very ironic, too
1:37:29
Rupert Isaacson: Well, the most practical, down-to-earth horse
1:37:31
culture on the planet is Mongolia.
1:37:34
Mm-hmm â¦ they eat them, they drink them, they live- Right â¦ under
1:37:38
roofs constructed from them.
1:37:40
They, They wear them on their bodies.
1:37:43
They, there's no part of the life out in the nomadic countryside in
1:37:49
Mongolia that is not practically affected by horses in the same way
1:37:55
that, say, plastic practically affects-
1:37:57
our life or something like that.
1:37:59
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
1:37:59
Rupert Isaacson: We don't eat it and drink it.
1:38:00
Well, actually, we do.
1:38:01
We're getting all those microplastics.
1:38:02
Sanaa Pharayra: I'm just gonna say- â¦ plastic is our,
1:38:05
plastic is our spirit animal.
1:38:07
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
1:38:10
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
1:38:15
bit about the old master system.
1:38:18
of dressage training.
1:38:19
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:38:28
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:38:34
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:38:41
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:38:44
Intrigued?
1:38:45
Like to know more?
1:38:46
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:38:51
Check out the free introduction course.
1:38:53
Take it from there.
1:38:54
Oh, my God.
1:38:55
Which, which actually in a weird way is all right.
1:38:58
Because if plastic is our spirit animal, then really the forest is
1:39:02
our spirit animal, 'cause what is plastic but fossil forest, really?
1:39:05
So- â¦ at the end of the day, I guess.
1:39:08
Whatever, whatever that.
1:39:09
But so I've got micro fossil forests in me or something.
1:39:11
I don't know.
1:39:12
But the, theâ¦
1:39:14
That's a bit more reassuring and comforting.
1:39:16
But the, the the fact that they are so down to earth and- Mm-hmm â¦ like this
1:39:22
horse needs to take me from A to B.
1:39:25
Yes.
1:39:25
And that's just that.
1:39:27
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
1:39:28
Rupert Isaacson: And this horse needs to help me round up that livestock
1:39:31
over there, otherwise- Right â¦ we will starve, and that's just that.
1:39:35
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
1:39:36
Rupert Isaacson: Despite that intense practicality, their entire
1:39:38
spiritual world, not surprisingly perhaps, is built around the horse.
1:39:42
Right.
1:39:43
And so they have this concept of the wind horse.
1:39:46
The Buddhist the Tibetan Buddhists have it, too.
1:39:48
There's some cross-fertilization between Mongolian Shamanism and Tibetan Buddhism
1:39:52
for interesting geographical reasons.
1:39:55
And it's like your luck, your mojo, your your wellbeing, your spirit, your soul.
1:39:59
Somewhere in the middle of all that.
1:40:01
And when you go to see a shaman on the Mongolian Steppe they're
1:40:05
tapping to horse energy.
1:40:06
And it's, it's the, the, an ancestor energy.
1:40:11
Mm-hmm.
1:40:11
And that's kind of what they're doing and kind of what they're using.
1:40:14
And even, even to the sound that they make on the shaman's drum, da-da-dum,
1:40:18
da-da-dum, da-da-dum, da-da-dum.
1:40:20
It's the one, two, three.
1:40:20
One, two, three.
1:40:21
One, two, three.
1:40:22
Yeah.
1:40:22
The galloping horse.
1:40:23
And actually, that is in a lot of Northern European Shamanism, too, which came
1:40:28
across from Siberia with people like the Yamnaya tribes in the yeah, Early Bronze
1:40:32
Age, and left those same shaman drums.
1:40:35
And now you hear them in Celtic music as well.
1:40:37
Da-da, da-da, da-da-da-da, da, da-da, da-da.
1:40:40
It's all horse.
1:40:40
Right.
1:40:41
It's all horse.
1:40:41
It's all horse.
1:40:43
So it's only really, I suppose, since about the 17th century with Descartes
1:40:48
coming up with this thing of, you know, "I think, therefore I am.
1:40:51
And therefore if you can't think, you don't have a soul, and
1:40:53
therefore you're not reallyâ¦
1:40:54
And that means we can be horrible to animals."
1:40:56
You know?
1:40:57
Right.
1:40:57
And that getting really kind of, people really jumped on
1:40:59
that one for some weird reason.
1:41:01
And we are still, like, recovering C- Cartesianaholics or something, whereas,
1:41:08
you know- Mm â¦ a, a, a Mongolian who's like super practical horse person-
1:41:12
â¦ would look at us and go Well, of course it's tied up with your spirituality.
1:41:16
I mean, you know- Mm-hmm â¦ I mean, you saying that humans don't have
1:41:19
a spirituality, that's like saying the sky is red when it's blue.
1:41:22
Because i- as much as one might want to deny it, it just keeps surfacing.
1:41:28
As- Yeah â¦ my friend Warwick Schiller, I think you should get on his podcast,
1:41:32
I'm gonna suggest that he has you as a guest, says in his Australian
1:41:36
accent, "You can't fight the woo.
1:41:38
It will find you."
1:41:39
You know?
1:41:41
It will find you.
1:41:42
And of course, you know, a lot of the most seemingly conservative people, you
1:41:47
know, in America are very Christian.
1:41:50
You know?
1:41:50
Or at least they claim they are.
1:41:51
Right.
1:41:51
Yeah.
1:41:52
Even if they're not quite living by the Christ message.
1:41:54
So yes, I, I think you're right.
1:41:58
He probably did r- or is starting to resolve something in you.
1:42:03
And this is actually what- Mm-hmm â¦ I wanted to ask you next.
1:42:05
Okay.
1:42:06
So- Okay â¦ i'm sure that many of our listeners and watchers are speculating
1:42:11
about where your name comes from, 'cause it's- Mm-hmm â¦ an unusual name.
1:42:14
And when I first heard it, when Kansas told me, I was like, "Oh, that's
1:42:17
some California name," you know?
1:42:19
And then I'm like, "No, no, no.
1:42:20
Actually, I've heard that name before.
1:42:21
I've heard that name before."
1:42:23
And I was like, "No, no.
1:42:24
It's not.
1:42:24
It's a, it's, it's, it's a Middle Eastern name."
1:42:27
And- Yes â¦ and th- then I'm trying to locate it, and then you and Iâ¦
1:42:31
And I said, "Are you, i- is your family from Lebanon?"
1:42:34
It's more like- It is
1:42:34
Near East than Middle East.
1:42:35
And you're like, "Well, almost."
1:42:37
And so I'm not gonna spoiler alert, but I want you
1:42:44
to tell us that ancestral story.
1:42:48
Okay.
1:42:49
And then let's talk about how-
1:42:53
Romeo and Ziggy might be playing into that and how- Okay â¦ it
1:42:57
might benefit the rest of us.
1:42:59
W- where's your family from?
1:43:01
Sanaa Pharayra: So I was born in Jerusalem, Israel.
1:43:04
My mother's American.
1:43:06
You know, m- mostly, like, European descent on my mother's side,
1:43:11
and my father is Arab Israeli.
1:43:14
And my father's side of my family, from what I know, were Bedouins
1:43:20
that settled in the Galilee region of Israel, which apparently has
1:43:27
population, you know, that are Arab Israeli that are Bedouin descendants.
1:43:33
So myâ¦
1:43:35
When I was very young, I was about a year old, my mother
1:43:38
brought me back to the States.
1:43:40
She wanted me to grow up in the United States, and my parents split up very early
1:43:45
on, and my mother raised me by herself.
1:43:47
So I didn't really have any connection to my father's side of my family,
1:43:52
and it wasn't until or I fr- early on after I moved to California, Iâ¦
1:43:59
It was actually when MySpace was first, first started, so it was even before
1:44:05
Facebook I had s- a cousin in Israel that found me on MySpace, and we connected
1:44:13
and he, you know, we talked a couple times, sent messages, and he's like,
1:44:17
"I'm your cousin, you know, from Israel."
1:44:20
And you know, my mom confirmed, "Yep, that's your cousin Adam.
1:44:23
He's a li- you know, a little older than you."
1:44:25
And he, So we talked, and he shared more family history, at least as far as
1:44:32
what he knew, and he said, "You know, we, we we can't believe that you are
1:44:37
into horses and that you ride horses."
1:44:40
Our grandfather was, I think, I believe it's called a Faras.
1:44:45
It's an Arab name for a horseman, and he raced Arabians in the desert.
1:44:51
And so they, you know, felt very strongly that's where I got the horse
1:44:57
you know, the passion for horses from.
1:44:59
But I didn't know anything about any of that until I was in my
1:45:04
20s, is when I, when I met my cousin through, through MySpace.
1:45:10
And growing up, I was just a kind of naturally born horse-crazy kid, basically.
1:45:18
You know, my mom was anâ¦
1:45:19
I would say my mom is an animal person, but wasn't necessarily a horse person.
1:45:23
There wasn't really anyone in my family that was, were horse people.
1:45:26
So she got me into riding lessons young, and that's how I got started in horses.
1:45:35
Rupert Isaacson: Did your-
1:45:35
Sanaa Pharayra: So it wasn't until later on that-
1:45:37
Rupert Isaacson: Did your parents retain any contact- Go ahead
1:45:38
after, after she went back to America?
1:45:40
Did they, like,
1:45:40
Sanaa Pharayra: not talk?
1:45:41
I'm s- I'm, I'm, say that again, I didn't hear you.
1:45:42
Rupert Isaacson: I'm sorry.
1:45:43
Did your parents break off contact after she moved back to Am- America?
1:45:46
Like, did they not talk anymore?
1:45:48
Sanaa Pharayra: Yes.
1:45:49
I mean, my fa- I don'tâ¦
1:45:51
My father didn't wanna be a father so he kind of exited
1:45:56
stage left when I was very young.
1:45:59
I was- Right â¦ I mean, he did come to see us when I was, like,
1:46:02
two years old, and then left and didn't wanna participate.
1:46:07
So I think at a certain point my mom, yeah, my mom realized it would be
1:46:13
better to, you know, not have contact-
1:46:18
Rupert Isaacson: Right
1:46:18
â¦ Sanaa Pharayra: with him.
1:46:18
Got it.
1:46:18
So he was not, yeah, not in my life at all after that.
1:46:22
Rupert Isaacson: And was it his father who had been the fast, the, the horse dude?
1:46:26
Sanaa Pharayra: Yes.
1:46:27
Rupert Isaacson: So your father must have had contact with horses growing up.
1:46:30
Must have.
1:46:32
Sanaa Pharayra: I don't know thatâ¦
1:46:33
I'm not sure, I'm not sure that he did.
1:46:36
I mean, I don't really know.
1:46:38
The only thing I do- But
1:46:39
Rupert Isaacson: if his own father was doing horses, how could he not have
1:46:41
had access to or contact with horses?
1:46:45
Sanaa Pharayra: The only thing that I know is that there was a, a very,
1:46:49
very large age difference between my grandfather and my grandmother.
1:46:53
So I think they had settled in Galilee by the time you know, by the time he was
1:46:59
born, so I don't know that he was around the real Bedouin way of life, so to speak.
1:47:05
You know, Mm-hmm â¦ but I don't know.
1:47:08
I haven't, you know, I haven't- Right â¦ haven't been able to
1:47:10
ask him that, so I don't know.
1:47:12
Rupert Isaacson: Well, okay, so when you told me that story, a whole bunch
1:47:15
of connections went off in my head.
1:47:17
Okay, so, I think when people think of Israel, obviously they
1:47:23
don't normally think of Arabs.
1:47:24
Right â¦ but there are a lot of Arabs in Israel, and when people think of
1:47:29
Israel, they don't often think of horses.
1:47:32
Right.
1:47:32
But there's an ancient horse culture in Israel.
1:47:36
If you open up the New Testament, which is the sort of mythol- mythological
1:47:40
history of the Judaic kingdom, Mm-hmm
1:47:43
through the Bronze Age, there's tons of horses in it, and they were, they
1:47:47
were all using horses all the time.
1:47:49
And of course, so were the, as you say, the Bedouin tribes, and that's
1:47:53
where we get, you know, our Arab horses and, to some degree, our
1:47:58
Thoroughbred horses and blah, blah, blah.
1:48:00
Right.
1:48:00
And the Islamic world is very much, and always was, a big horse culture.
1:48:05
People forget this.
1:48:06
All of the texts of classical dressage from the Middle Ages are in Arabic.
1:48:13
They're not in European languages at that point.
1:48:16
Then with the Renaissance they become-
1:48:23
Europe- Europeanified again Uh-huh Um, okay, because it's just a more
1:48:27
literate culture, particularly in Southern Spain and North Africa.
1:48:30
But anyway, but
1:48:33
y- we talked about conflict resolution
1:48:36
Sanaa Pharayra: Uh-huh
1:48:37
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:48:40
I think we can all agree that people have been fighting over that
1:48:43
bit of rock for a very long time.
1:48:48
Sanaa Pharayra: Yes.
1:48:48
Rupert Isaacson: For a very long time.
1:48:50
Okay.
1:48:51
Since before people had words like Jew and Arab, the same people were for some reason
1:49:01
saying, "This bit of rock we will â¦ We care about it so much we'll die for it."
1:49:07
You know?
1:49:07
It- Right â¦ this goes back into the Bronze Age.
1:49:10
Even even in Judea itself, you know, you've got so many competing tribes
1:49:16
that they're just talking about within the New Testament, some of whom are
1:49:20
supposedly of what we now call Jewish origin, and some of whom are not.
1:49:24
And they're tussling- Mm-hmm â¦ it out, and they're tussling it out, and
1:49:26
they're also tussling it out with Egypt, and they're tussling it out with the
1:49:30
Hittites up there in Turkey and Syria, and they're, they're battling it out with
1:49:34
the Assyrians in Babylon so that they end up going into, you know, bondage.
1:49:38
They're all riding horses.
1:49:40
They're all- Yeah â¦ riding horses.
1:49:43
And if there's one thing that â¦ And then the Crusaders show up, and
1:49:46
when they show up, they show up on horseback, and blah, and blah, and blah.
1:49:51
If there's one unifying element in- international human relations.
1:49:59
It's usually the shared passionate interest thing, which is why football,
1:50:04
that's why I have the World Cup, you know?
1:50:06
The Eurovision Song Contest.
1:50:07
Yeah.
1:50:07
The, yeah.
1:50:08
But horses are that, too.
1:50:10
So you know this.
1:50:10
Every time, you know, you c- you or I can just show up anywhere in the world,
1:50:15
find the horse people, and we're grand.
1:50:17
Yeah.
1:50:17
You know?
1:50:17
It, it- Right.
1:50:18
Instant friend.
1:50:18
It doesn't matter if, if we speak the language.
1:50:20
It doesn't matter if we share the same religion.
1:50:22
The color of our skin makes no difference.
1:50:24
Like, ponies are us, and that's just that.
1:50:27
Yes.
1:50:29
It's interesting to me that there you are with this Arab Israeli name-
1:50:38
Mm-hmm â¦ not really knowing your heritage until later, that there's a
1:50:43
horse heritage there, that you come out of this ancient horse heritage, which
1:50:46
must always have been both a source of conflict, the soldiers fighting each
1:50:51
other are doing it on horseback- Yeah
1:50:53
and a source of healing.
1:50:56
They're sharing- Mm-hmm â¦ their knowledge.
1:50:58
They all share this love of the horse.
1:51:00
When they're not in battle, they're trading horses from each other and
1:51:04
saying, "Oh, that's a good mare.
1:51:05
Can I breed to that one?"
1:51:07
And then you come over to the USA, and then you end up entering the sort
1:51:17
of field of consciousness of horse healing from a rather particular place
1:51:22
with a rather particular name, with a rather particular genetic history.
1:51:26
Sanaa Pharayra: Mm-hmm.
1:51:27
Rupert Isaacson: And you are involved in conflict resolution,
1:51:31
having come out with a horse thing from possibly the most contested
1:51:36
corner of the planet that exists.
1:51:41
And you said that you feel that Romeo might be reaching out to you.
1:51:55
Maybe there's some work he would like you to do
1:52:04
What goes on in your gut and in your heart when you look into
1:52:11
where all this is going for you?
1:52:14
Sanaa Pharayra: Well, I, I feel like I have always felt a very, very strongâ¦
1:52:22
I've always had an extremely strong sort of compass for what I
1:52:26
wanted to do from a very young age.
1:52:28
My mom really wanted me to go the academic route, but I wanted to be a horse trainer,
1:52:33
and at that time when I was going, you know, in high school thinking about
1:52:37
going to college, at that time there weren't a lot of academic programs for
1:52:41
horse equi- equine studies or whatever.
1:52:44
It just wasn't very available.
1:52:47
So I did what everybody else did, you know, apprenticeship, working
1:52:51
student, learning hands-on learning.
1:52:53
I went that route.
1:52:54
Getting a little off, off topic here.
1:52:56
Circling back to what was Iâ¦
1:52:59
Remind me again, where were we going with this?
1:53:00
I don't wanna go off on a tangent too much.
1:53:02
What's
1:53:02
Rupert Isaacson: Romeo-
1:53:04
Sanaa Pharayra: Okay
1:53:04
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: got in store for you?
1:53:06
Sanaa Pharayra: Got it.
1:53:07
So I have always felt like I, horses have meant so much to me in my life.
1:53:13
They were everything to me from a very young age.
1:53:15
I've learned so many things from horses, not just about riding,
1:53:19
but, you know, feel like horses taught me h- to be an entrepreneur.
1:53:24
You know, like they, all kinds of things.
1:53:26
Like, to be industrious, you know, to be creative, like so many life lessons.
1:53:31
And I'm very grateful that I was able to be involved with horses, as particularly
1:53:37
because I was a child of a single mother.
1:53:41
We didn't have a lot of economic resources, and looking back on it,
1:53:45
it was pretty miraculous that I was able to do as much as I was.
1:53:49
And that's probably been one of the hardest things for me working in the
1:53:54
pro- professional equestrian world, is feeling like I, I want this to be
1:53:59
more accessible to people, and that it, it's very challenging, that it is,
1:54:04
it isn't that accessible for various reasons, most of which boil down
1:54:09
to the cost, you know, cost of it.
1:54:12
And,
1:54:13
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, unless you're living in Wyoming where
1:54:15
God gives you- Right â¦ the pasture and cleans up your horse.
1:54:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:54:18
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
1:54:18
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:54:19
Sanaa Pharayra: In which case you already have horses anyway.
1:54:21
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
1:54:21
Sanaa Pharayra: So-
1:54:22
Rupert Isaacson: And you're part
1:54:22
Sanaa Pharayra: of a
1:54:23
Rupert Isaacson: horse family.
1:54:23
Yeah
1:54:23
â¦ Sanaa Pharayra: so, so the first thing for, with the Romeo venture is that it
1:54:28
sort of naturally, you know, aligned with my desire to make horses accessible to
1:54:34
people that wouldn't have access to them.
1:54:37
So, so, and kind of, like I said, I, I can't take credit
1:54:41
for, for coming up with the plan.
1:54:44
Like, I really, I mean, honestly, Romeo kind of, Romeo led us through that.
1:54:51
But it, it really actually look, it's so brilliant, like, in so many ways.
1:54:55
Like, it was so brilliant, and that's what's so funny about the whole
1:54:58
story that it wasn't premeditated.
1:55:00
But the van, like Daryl literally said to me, "Do you remember
1:55:05
the van from National Velvet?
1:55:07
I wanna build a van like that for Romeo."
1:55:09
Like, that, like, literally was, was the, how this all started.
1:55:13
But now that we have the van, I'm like, it's so brilliant to be able
1:55:18
to take them into the city, into a parking garage, parallel park.
1:55:23
I mean, we, we're making them accessible.
1:55:26
So it's, but there's so many layers to the project.
1:55:31
Like, it, it has recently taken a bunch of twists and turns
1:55:35
that I didn't even see coming.
1:55:38
S- we have been working on coming up with more of a concrete framework.
1:55:42
You know, we just filed all of our papers to start a 501[c][3]
1:55:47
so that we can start, you know, p- properly funding and, and grow this.
1:55:51
But ultimately, you know, I want to be able to continue to do the research and
1:55:58
development necessary to really develop this field, and eventually with the idea
1:56:03
of being able to make it more accessible.
1:56:06
You know, some form of scaling it or helping other people learn how to do
1:56:10
it, like what you're doing so that it can be available to more people.
1:56:14
And I had ideas of how I would do that eventually, you know,
1:56:18
based off of other models of how I've seen other people do it.
1:56:22
But even recently something just came up that I didn't see coming,
1:56:26
which is that multiple universities have expressed interest in working
1:56:32
with us with their students, and having their students learn this.
1:56:37
And I did not see that coming, and that's really interesting because for me it
1:56:40
goes back to this, th- this thing of my mom wanting me to go the academic route.
1:56:45
And- Right â¦ I think she was very disappointed that I didn't
1:56:49
go that route for a long time.
1:56:52
Mm.
1:56:52
And now here I am giving presentations at major universities.
1:56:59
Yeah.
1:57:00
You know, in front of professors and doctors and, you know, researchers
1:57:05
about horses, and they are genuinely interested and fascinated.
1:57:11
And so that's, like, a whole nother level.
1:57:15
So yeah, I guess if, you know, this is Ro- somehow Romeo's, Romeo's showing
1:57:20
me this path it, it's continuing to unfold and it, who knows, like, where
1:57:25
it's gonna go next at this point.
1:57:27
I mean, it con- it continues to amaze me.
1:57:31
Rupert Isaacson: Have you reached out to or are you in contact with Dr.
1:57:36
Nina Ekholm Fry?
1:57:37
No.
1:57:38
She's University of Denver Director of Equine Programs at the Institute
1:57:42
for Human Animal Connection.
1:57:44
Sanaa Pharayra: I haven't, but I've heard about the programs at that school.
1:57:48
Rupert Isaacson: I have a feeling thatâ¦
1:57:49
Well, I, I think I'll connect you.
1:57:51
But,
1:57:51
Sanaa Pharayra: Okay
1:57:52
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: I, I think you guys are a natural fit.
1:57:54
They were, they were sort of the first, that I know of in the USA,
1:58:00
academic full-on department in just human animal connection.
1:58:05
Yeah â¦ and as you say, this is now a field.
1:58:10
Yeah â¦ there's also a wonderful, woman who's just about to become doctor, Dr.
1:58:15
Kez Sullivan who- Mm-hmm â¦ she did that study through University of Bournemouth
1:58:20
with her supervisor Anne Hemingway, Dr.
1:58:23
Anne Hemingway.
1:58:24
Mm-hmm.
1:58:24
That was the one on domestic violence that I referred to a little bit earlier.
1:58:28
Right.
1:58:28
And I think that there's some people that you could and
1:58:31
probably should join forces with.
1:58:33
I know you've got other people as well, but w- where there's specific
1:58:37
interest in this equine human field.
1:58:40
Yeah â¦ and then of course there's the Horses and Humans Research Foundation,
1:58:44
and that's Pebbles- Yes â¦ who runs that who's been on this show.
1:58:48
But it's so interesting to me that you know, when I was first starting
1:58:51
in this, you know, academics were not interested, you know?
1:58:54
Right â¦ but luckily, there were lots and lots of grad students out
1:58:58
there who, who rode horses, who all- Yeah â¦ kind of went, "Well, why
1:59:02
isn't there a field of study here?"
1:59:04
Yeah.
1:59:04
And then they all went and got their PhDs and became academics,
1:59:07
and now- Right â¦ here we are.
1:59:09
And then, yes, as you say now, your, your mum can can
1:59:11
She'll still probably still kvetch at you that you don't have a
1:59:14
tenured position at some university.
1:59:16
But maybe that's coming, you never know.
1:59:18
Maybe you'll get your honorary PhD.
1:59:19
Sanaa Pharayra: You never know.
1:59:20
It's just it's just ironic, you know?
1:59:23
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:59:24
It is.
1:59:25
Sanaa Pharayra: I mean, I, I, I do think the universe has a sense of humor.
1:59:29
Rupert Isaacson: It really, I hadn't noticed.
1:59:33
, Yeah.
1:59:33
What, what's next?
1:59:35
If you, if you proj- w- not even what's next forâ¦
1:59:38
What, what's your dream?
1:59:40
What would you really, really, really like this to turn into?
1:59:46
Sanaa Pharayra: I really want to preserve a place in our
1:59:48
society for horses, you know?
1:59:52
That humans can stay connected to horses even as we continue to
1:59:57
evolve in this modernized way.
1:59:59
That I think that they have a very important role to play now more than ever.
2:00:04
I mean, hor- it, horsepower has a whole new meaning to me now.
2:00:09
And I think if I can do a good job at being a steward of this
2:00:16
I'll be able to demonstrate that.
2:00:19
And, you know, I think as peopleâ¦
2:00:22
I think as it gets more visibility, you know, and people realize how important
2:00:26
it is, it, it can grow and expand.
2:00:28
And, and hopefully too, as that happens, it, just like what you're doing and the
2:00:34
conversations we're having today, we can also educate people on how to be good
2:00:41
stewards of caring for the animals, and how they're partners in this with us.
2:00:45
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
2:00:46
But I'm sorry, that's all BS.
2:00:48
What do you want to do with this?
2:00:59
Sanaa Pharayra: I mean, I, I, I feel like that's, like, it, I want, like
2:01:02
I said, I wanna, I wanna preserve it in order- There's a vision in
2:01:05
Rupert Isaacson: there.
2:01:05
There's a vision in there that you're not communicating.
2:01:07
I can feel it.
2:01:08
Sanaa Pharayra: In order to preserve it, we have to teach
2:01:11
the next generation how to do it.
2:01:13
So teaching.
2:01:15
Right.
2:01:15
I wanna elevate, I wanna elevate the, the therapy work, too.
2:01:20
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
2:01:21
Sanaa Pharayra: To properly to where I feel like it should be.
2:01:24
Rupert Isaacson: Which is
2:01:24
Sanaa Pharayra: what?
2:01:24
A lot higher level of horsemanship.
2:01:27
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
2:01:29
Sanaa Pharayra: And understanding for the animal.
2:01:32
And I think it c- I, I keep going back to accessibility, not just accessibility
2:01:37
in transporting the horses to places that horses wouldn't normally go,
2:01:40
but maybe accessibility in being able to teach people how to do this
2:01:45
that wouldn't n- normally get the opportunity to learn about horses or
2:01:51
to be involved in something like this
2:01:56
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
2:01:57
Sanaa Pharayra: and I think the oppor- opportunity, just recently I realized that
2:02:01
there may be an opportunity to bridge a gap between young people and old people.
2:02:06
Like, one of the, one of the,
2:02:08
Rupert Isaacson: There we go
2:02:09
â¦ Sanaa Pharayra: professors that we met with the other day had, had said
2:02:14
that she felt like if we could create a program that students could be
2:02:18
involved in with the therapy work, that this may be a way to get young people
2:02:23
interested in the field of gerontology.
2:02:28
Rupert Isaacson: That is what I was digging for.
2:02:32
Putting old people in old people parking- â¦ is a really stupid idea, right?
2:02:37
Because- Yeah â¦ no other culture does that.
2:02:41
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
2:02:41
Rupert Isaacson: Because these are the people with the knowledge and the wisdom.
2:02:47
Right.
2:02:47
And then right when they're in a position to impart it to you, you
2:02:51
put them in the freezer, you know?
2:02:52
Yeah.
2:02:53
And then are flabbergasted when we can't find answers to questions
2:02:57
that maybe they figured out in 1973.
2:03:00
Right.
2:03:01
And because they're not around to ask, we make more mistakes
2:03:05
perhaps than we needed to.
2:03:07
The, the idea of a sense of purpose, like, you know, all animals, humans
2:03:10
and others, need a sense of purpose.
2:03:12
I remember when we took our two little kids when they were really small to see
2:03:19
my wife's grandmother, who was in- Mm â¦ old people parking and had dementia.
2:03:24
And she didn't know who we were, and it didn't matter because as soon
2:03:29
as she saw the two little kids, she just started giving them, ordering
2:03:34
chocolate cake and then teaching them how to play Chinese checkers.
2:03:38
Yeah.
2:03:38
She went from kind of like-
2:03:42
Huh?
2:03:44
To, "Well, this is how you do the da, da, da, da, da, ba, ba, da, ba, dum."
2:03:48
And then when we stood up to go she went
2:03:53
And w- what one realized was, oh, in the old days, maybe if there was Granny
2:04:01
or Grandpa sitting by the fire in the corner, and they were drifting away
2:04:05
from time to time and drifting back, but the intergenerational way of life, the
2:04:08
proper ma- mammalian tribal way of life, meant that they were constantly engaged.
2:04:12
Right.
2:04:13
And so they were fulfilling economic and social functions regardless,
2:04:20
regardless of where their cognition was.
2:04:23
But because their cognition was probably better because they were engaged-
2:04:27
Yeah â¦ they were also less gaga.
2:04:30
Because when you, when you go into these hunter-gatherer areas, I
2:04:33
can tell you, you don't see it.
2:04:35
You don't see it.
2:04:35
You don't see-
2:04:36
Sanaa Pharayra: Right
2:04:36
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: old people like that.
2:04:37
They're, they're, they're so engaged, and they're moving
2:04:40
physically, and their bodies are-
2:04:41
Sanaa Pharayra: Yes
2:04:42
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: often, yeah.
2:04:42
You, you just do not see this catatonic sitting around with
2:04:47
the brain not there thing.
2:04:48
And as you say, the brain is there.
2:04:50
Because you, you, you put my kids or you put Romeo into the picture, and boom.
2:04:56
And that was what I was digging for of where's it going.
2:05:00
I think that, that this particular aspect of our culture, we're
2:05:04
talking about conflict resolution here, resolving a dilemma.
2:05:07
We have a massive dilemma of- Yeah â¦ the abandonment of our seniors.
2:05:14
Yes.
2:05:15
Not, and that's a problem not because it's bad for them.
2:05:20
It's a problem 'cause it's bad for us, that we are, we
2:05:25
don't have our consultants.
2:05:26
We don't have our, we don't have our tribal elders.
2:05:29
We don't have our council of elders.
2:05:31
We're supposed to work everything out as, like, idiot 40-year-olds?
2:05:34
Or, you know, no.
2:05:36
No.
2:05:37
Right â¦ we can't.
2:05:39
So is what you're doing a way towards healing a kind of social disease that's
2:05:53
really crept in with the negation of the value of what's soon to be
2:06:02
the largest sector of human society?
2:06:09
I suspect you're at the cutting edge of this.
2:06:11
Sanaa Pharayra: Well, there's another interesting twist that we didn't
2:06:14
even touch on at all in this talk, but the, the fact that, like, from
2:06:20
the very beginning Daryl always, you know, likes to film, film stuff with
2:06:24
the horses, and just, just for fun.
2:06:26
Always taking pictures, always filming, you know, and we were making just
2:06:30
cute videos to show people, like, "Look what, we taught Romeo to do
2:06:33
this trick," or whatever, and, and it's, and again, with no agenda.
2:06:38
And, and going back and watching them, 'cause we use them all the time for
2:06:42
different things that we're working on, and in all the videos we're just, like,
2:06:46
giggling and laughing, and like, "Oh, look how cute he is," or, "Oh, good boy,"
2:06:50
you know, like, 'cause it was just fun.
2:06:52
But we have amassed a massive amount of footage well, like, professionally
2:07:00
shot, 'cause she is an expert, you know, at that, and really knows
2:07:04
how to get the right camera angles.
2:07:06
And she's been teaching me, and I've actually been able
2:07:08
to help with it as well.
2:07:10
And I had no idea how powerful telling that story was gonna be to people.
2:07:17
Yeah.
2:07:17
And we recently gave two presentations at, at those two universities and, and
2:07:22
the one university told us it was the best presentation that their summer
2:07:25
research fellowship program has had.
2:07:28
I can believe it.
2:07:29
And then the other university, like, who I didn't really know if they were
2:07:33
gonna give us the time of day, they were visibly moved by the footage.
2:07:37
And that was what sparked the comment about this could be a way to get young
2:07:41
people interested in, in this field.
2:07:44
And I do wonder if the s- it does seem like the story of Ro- Romeo somehow
2:07:51
is a a story of unity, like, in that it's something everyone can agree on.
2:07:56
Rupert Isaacson: I've got the title of the mo- of the documentary.
2:07:58
What?
2:07:58
'Cause you're, 'cause you're recovering people's memories
2:08:00
and their cognition, right?
2:08:03
Sanaa Pharayra: Uh-huh.
2:08:04
Rupert Isaacson: Where for art thou?
2:08:08
Sanaa Pharayra: Love that.
2:08:11
It's so funny 'cause in one of our little reels that we made about
2:08:14
our program, one of the seniors is saying, "Where for out there, Romeo?"
2:08:23
I'll send it to you.
2:08:25
So funny.
2:08:27
Yeah, that's great.
2:08:28
But, but I do feel like we have this very, very strong storytelling capability
2:08:33
that we have not tapped into yet,
2:08:37
and it would be super interesting to see, like, you know, we I do
2:08:41
feel like there's gonna be docu- at, at least one documentary, if not
2:08:45
multiple things coming from this.
2:08:47
'Cause just because it's, people love it, it's so interesting,
2:08:50
and we have so much footage and-
2:08:52
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
2:08:52
But what you, what you can also show is, is, is the value of-
2:08:58
keeping seniors involved in society.
2:09:01
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah
2:09:02
Rupert Isaacson: And you can do it through a story that people think
2:09:04
they're engaging in with this cute pony.
2:09:07
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
2:09:07
Rupert Isaacson: Which is a great hook because, you know, no one's gonna
2:09:09
go see a documentary about the old.
2:09:13
But they will go to see- Well, just like how
2:09:13
Sanaa Pharayra: many young, how many young people wanna go to school to,
2:09:17
you know, take care of old people?
2:09:19
I mean, it's not, like, you know what I mean?
2:09:22
Like-
2:09:22
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
2:09:22
I mean, some people might do it for the money, but yes, yes, it's not a,
2:09:25
like a respected field with status.
2:09:28
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
2:09:28
Rupert Isaacson: But it ought to be.
2:09:30
The care for- Right â¦ care for the elders ought to be, like,
2:09:33
a revered and honored thing.
2:09:35
Sanaa Pharayra: Yes.
2:09:35
Rupert Isaacson: Shouldn't it?
2:09:36
Sanaa Pharayra: Yes.
2:09:39
Rupert Isaacson: Rather like the, the nurses- And,
2:09:39
Sanaa Pharayra: and
2:09:40
Rupert Isaacson: it's
2:09:40
Sanaa Pharayra: so necessary right now, too â¦ ability to pay.
2:09:43
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:09:43
Yes, and it's going to get more and more necessary.
2:09:46
I can feel in my gut that this might go somewhere even m- to
2:09:55
another place after this, too.
2:09:57
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
2:09:58
Rupert Isaacson: Ancestors.
2:09:59
You're dealing with people that are about to become ancestors.
2:10:04
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
2:10:04
Rupert Isaacson: And but who have the ability to impart their wisdom, and even
2:10:11
if they've got cognitive decline, Romeo can be like a sort of dream catcher and
2:10:17
catch those memories and catch that.
2:10:22
Sanaa Pharayra: We were visiting a older gentleman in his room the
2:10:25
other day, and we had both Romeo and Ziggy at his hospital bed.
2:10:28
And I didn't think that he could talk at all, and he was, he- you could tell
2:10:32
he was enjoying the horses visiting and, and he kind of started to, like, i-
2:10:38
sort of, like, struggle to s- it seemed like he was struggling to speak, and
2:10:42
he tried and tried and, and all of the sudden, he, towards the end of the visit,
2:10:47
he mustered up, "I grew up on a farm."
2:10:50
Wow.
2:10:53
And it's like he needed to tell us that, and that just that, those
2:10:57
words, to me, he wanted us to know how special that was to him.
2:11:02
And he c- was struggling to say anything else, but he was able
2:11:06
to say, "I grew up on a farm."
2:11:08
And I felt like I understood him- Huge â¦ in that moment.
2:11:12
Rupert Isaacson: It's huge.
2:11:13
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
2:11:15
Rupert Isaacson: If you went â¦ I wonder if you went back again
2:11:17
and again, would more come?
2:11:21
Sanaa Pharayra: May, it may be.
2:11:22
I mean, I feel like I've seen, definitely seen progress with the people
2:11:26
that I see regularly on other levels
2:11:33
Rupert Isaacson: Now, you have some ancestors of your
2:11:35
own that are at work here,
2:11:40
reaching out from the Bedouin ancestry of the Arabic horse
2:11:49
tradition-
2:11:50
Sanaa Pharayra: Mm-hmm
2:11:50
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: which goes back about at least 4, possibly 6,000 years.
2:11:56
Sanaa Pharayra: Mm-hmm.
2:12:00
Rupert Isaacson: And you're in the process of discovering something about
2:12:04
the resolving of a conflict in our society with the jettisoning of the old.
2:12:16
And you are exploring that, and you will explore that.
2:12:20
And you come from, and your ancestors come from, a part of the world that is
2:12:25
embroiled in a, an endless conflict.
2:12:28
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
2:12:30
Rupert Isaacson: And while no one person can go and resolve that conflict-
2:12:37
I can't help but wonder if programs like yours
2:12:45
Over there
2:12:48
might be a way to bridge understanding between groups of people-
2:12:55
Sanaa Pharayra: That's fascinating â¦ who are
2:12:57
Rupert Isaacson: at animosity with each other.
2:13:02
And it's in your blood, and the ancestors have a funny way of getting things done.
2:13:12
Let's export this girl to America.
2:13:16
Let's put her in celeb land.
2:13:22
Let's make something magical with horses, animals, nature, or
2:13:29
happen with that in a way that is clearly needed in that culture.
2:13:38
And then maybe let's bring her home for a bit to see what she can do over there.
2:13:46
And what would be really interesting would be if you went
2:13:48
out to Israel, Lebanon, Syria
2:13:55
Or even, even maybe just the obvious things, just, just to where your
2:13:58
people were the last in Galilee
2:14:06
And you began, you didn't go in saying, "I want to resolve
2:14:10
conflict between Jews and Muslims."
2:14:13
Sanaa Pharayra: Mm-hmm.
2:14:13
Rupert Isaacson: But when you go into an old people's home over there,
2:14:16
you're gonna find Jews and Muslims.
2:14:19
And- You think
2:14:19
Sanaa Pharayra: they're in the same homes together?
2:14:21
Rupert Isaacson: In so- in some places they will be.
2:14:22
Uh-huh.
2:14:23
Some places, in some places they won't be.
2:14:25
And whether or not they're in the same homes together, there's nothing
2:14:29
to stop you from going into both.
2:14:31
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
2:14:33
Rupert Isaacson: It doesn't even necessarily have to be you personally.
2:14:36
I mean, it might be at the beginning, but you might show some
2:14:39
people there how to do the work.
2:14:42
And if you create the documentary and you share your own h- you know,
2:14:49
ancestral story in there, I feel it's pretty likely that someone
2:14:54
out there's gonna reach out to you.
2:14:57
Or that you might say, "You know what?
2:14:59
Sod it.
2:14:59
Let's just go."
2:15:01
And as you say, one of the nice things about minis is you can stick them in
2:15:04
the back of a van and go anywhere.
2:15:06
Right.
2:15:06
You know?
2:15:07
It, you don't need toâ¦
2:15:08
And it, and it's sort of inclusive and democratized.
2:15:10
You can go into urban environments.
2:15:13
You can put them in an elevator and go up to the fifth floor.
2:15:16
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
2:15:21
Rupert Isaacson: I have my ancestors reach out through me which is
2:15:24
what happened with the Bushmen.
2:15:26
And we ended up helping several groups who'd been illegally evicted to make way
2:15:32
for diamond mines get their land back.
2:15:35
And I had a bit of an ancestral debt to them because of things that my family
2:15:38
had done to them in the past- Hmm
2:15:40
but also I was related because not all my family is white.
2:15:45
And that healing journey prepared me for the advocacy I had to do with autism.
2:15:54
And the horsemanship that I acquired along the way prepared me to do
2:15:59
that work and, and, and, and, and.
2:16:01
And it's still not over.
2:16:02
Yes.
2:16:02
I have to go back out to Botswana now it's, to do the next stage
2:16:10
Sanaa Pharayra: Did you know at the time that your ancestors were guiding you?
2:16:14
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:16:16
Because when I heard of the, this particular group of Bushmen in South
2:16:23
Africa where there were not supposed to be Bushmen left anymore, they
2:16:26
were all supposed to have been wiped out, that they'd been living by the
2:16:29
side of the road for a couple of generations 'cause they'd been kicked
2:16:32
out of what's now a national park.
2:16:35
They've got a third of it back now.
2:16:37
The w- whe- when I heard where they were, I knew that that's
2:16:42
where my non-white family were.
2:16:44
And I knew that in that area, it's so sparsely populated that all the
2:16:48
groups, to some degree, interbreed-
2:16:52
Sanaa Pharayra: Mm-hmm
2:16:52
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: whether voluntarily or not.
2:16:56
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
2:16:56
Rupert Isaacson: And I thought, I n- g- absolute gut feeling, "You have,
2:17:02
Rupert, you have to go have a look."
2:17:05
And I did, and I found out I was indeed a cousin by marriage to this group.
2:17:12
And, well, then you take the adventure that's in front of you.
2:17:19
I feel that you're being prepared for something.
2:17:23
And, But the thing about resolving a loss within society that's global, which is
2:17:30
this schism between the old and the young, which is a schism with our mother, it's a
2:17:37
schism with our planet, it's a schism with nature, it's a schism with who we are.
2:17:43
It causes us such enormous psychological pain to live this way.
2:17:48
You found a mechanism for bridging that gap.
2:17:50
You've been shown it by this pony, but there's ancestors guiding the pony.
2:17:56
And moving through the pony.
2:17:57
I talked about shape-shifting, I talk about, talked about before.
2:18:01
And I would just encourage you to ask these questions, and then
2:18:04
the obvious thing is, yeah- Okay
2:18:06
if you have to create some big piece of media, you know, a little
2:18:09
bit like I did with The Horse Boy, well then people notice.
2:18:13
Conversations begin.
2:18:15
Relationships begin.
2:18:17
And logical things follow.
2:18:23
Sanaa Pharayra: Did you b- did you publish your book first or
2:18:26
did you do the documentary first?
2:18:27
Rupert Isaacson: No, they d- they k- I did them simultaneously because- Okay
2:18:30
When I did the book I, as an autism dad and as a journalist, I was uncomfortable
2:18:37
with the idea that if I wrote a book, let's say, l- you know â¦ What I said
2:18:43
to my p- publishers, 'cause I was already a writer, and I wrote a- Right â¦ I
2:18:46
wrote a, a proposal but, you know, just 'cause you write a proposal doesn't
2:18:50
mean the publishers will go for it.
2:18:51
Right.
2:18:52
As any writer knows.
2:18:53
And just 'cause you write a book doesn't mean anyone will notice, you know?
2:18:56
Mm-hmm.
2:18:56
That's another thing every writer knows.
2:18:58
Just 'cause you make a film doesn't mean anything, any, everyone will notice.
2:19:00
A lot of things have- Right â¦ to come together to make that happen.
2:19:03
All right.
2:19:03
So, I was uncomfortable with the idea that if I went out there and there was great
2:19:07
change, that I would be writing this book saying, "I went to this place that you'll
2:19:12
never go to, and I met these people that you'll never meet, and you kinda have to
2:19:15
take my word for it that this happened."
2:19:17
Right.
2:19:18
And I remember thinking, "Okay, well if I was a, if I was an autism parent sitting
2:19:22
in Queens, New York or London, England or somewhere might that-" feel oddly
2:19:30
like a slap in the face in a weird way.
2:19:32
So I thought, "No, i- it has to be recorded.
2:19:35
If anything happens, we have to record it, including if nothing happens."
2:19:41
Yeah.
2:19:42
Because what then?
2:19:43
And I thought, "Well, all right.
2:19:44
Well, at least, at least we're treating the autism as an adventure,
2:19:49
not as a sort of end of everything."
2:19:52
And that has some merit, no?
2:19:55
Because we're being told by back then anyway, by all the
2:19:58
pediatricians, "Well, your lives are over, and his life is over."
2:20:02
And it's not.
2:20:03
Right.
2:20:03
Like, he's, he's downstairs right now.
2:20:05
He's 25.
2:20:06
He just took the train back from Frankfurt, having flown over- Right
2:20:08
â¦ from America by himself, and he's off to youth hosteling to Leipzig, you know, next
2:20:13
week, and he's got three jobs, and he's drives his own car, and just all of that.
2:20:18
That's awesome.
2:20:18
And, you know, but he was non-verbal, shitting his pants, and, you
2:20:22
know, self-harming tantrums.
2:20:24
So they ca- no, we, we did them simultaneously and because I, I felt
2:20:29
it just needed a record an actual physical record where you could see
2:20:33
if it happened or if it didn't happen.
2:20:35
Mm-hmm.
2:20:39
I didn't know that the work would go global because I did, there
2:20:44
was no work at the time that I produced the movie and the film.
2:20:47
There was no Horse Boy Method.
2:20:48
There was just- Mm-hmm â¦ what I had f- discovered and
2:20:51
stumbled into with my own son.
2:20:52
But at that stage I wasn't really working with others yet.
2:20:55
Sanaa Pharayra: Right.
2:20:55
Rupert Isaacson: That came afterwards, and then it, and then it grew.
2:20:59
I just have this weird feeling that you're uniquely placed and these
2:21:03
things don't happen out of the blue
2:21:07
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah, I, I have definitely gotten a very strong
2:21:10
sense throughout, throughout this whole journey with Romeo ofâ¦
2:21:17
I, I would have used the word momentum, but w- it's had a
2:21:24
strange amount of momentum.
2:21:26
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:21:26
Sanaa Pharayra: I've never experienced anything like this before.
2:21:29
Like, to where- Yeah â¦ n- it's like I just feel like constantly doors are
2:21:35
opening, constantly people are offering to help or wanting to support it,
2:21:40
and, and honestly listening to me talk about it, like being interested in it.
2:21:46
I've never felt likeâ¦
2:21:48
O- obviously I've been around horses my whole life and had lots
2:21:50
of horse stories to tell, but never felt that people were as genuinely
2:21:54
interested in, in my horse stories until, like, Romeo came into my life.
2:21:59
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:22:00
Sanaa Pharayra: And now everyone that knows me knows about Romeo, so when I
2:22:03
see people I haven't seen in a long time, it's a n- natural conversation topic.
2:22:07
"What's going on with Romeo?
2:22:09
What is he up to now?"
2:22:10
You know?
2:22:10
Like, so yeah, there, it, it does feel like something is helping this.
2:22:18
I obviously have put a lot of work.
2:22:20
A lot of work has been put into this, not just by me, but by other people,
2:22:24
you know, as part of the, the team.
2:22:26
A lot of people care about this.
2:22:28
But even beyond the work that we've put in, there's something
2:22:32
else that's been pushing it along.
2:22:36
And it, and it seems to be growing and expanding at a fairly rapid pace.
2:22:42
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:22:43
Like there's a- another force behind it.
2:22:45
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
2:22:46
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:22:49
I would agree.
2:22:51
I'm fascinated to see where it will go.
2:22:54
Sanaa Pharayra: Me too
2:22:55
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: I think everyone listening and watching will be, too.
2:22:59
Okay, look, we've hit the two-hour mark.
2:23:01
I think people probably wanna know how they can get in touch
2:23:04
with you, how they can find out more, maybe how they can help.
2:23:08
Sanaa Pharayra: We have a website.
2:23:10
It's romeoroadshow.com.
2:23:13
So that has some information about our program, and we have a lot of our
2:23:19
regular updates on our therapy visits and other activities on our Instagram
2:23:24
account, which is just @romeoroadshow.
2:23:29
We will, within the next couple of weeks to 30 days, have a link on our
2:23:33
website if anyone wants to support the Romeo Roadshow project financially.
2:23:39
There will be a way to do that through the website as well.
2:23:46
Rupert Isaacson: You said that horses can be trained to become emotionally
2:23:49
present, emotionally engaged as well as physically safe around these populations.
2:23:53
Yes.
2:23:54
You do a lot of in-hand work for this, and classical in-hand work and so on.
2:23:57
Are you gonna start training people how to do this?
2:23:59
Is that gonna be a program that- I would- â¦ Romeo will do?
2:24:01
Sanaa Pharayra: I, I would love to.
2:24:03
You know, I think that's gonna be part of the growth of the program, is to be able
2:24:07
to teach, you know, others how to do this.
2:24:12
Obviously we need more horses to be able to do that, but I
2:24:15
definitely think that that's coming.
2:24:18
Rupert Isaacson: I would love to become, to be part of that.
2:24:20
So if-
2:24:21
Sanaa Pharayra: That would be great.
2:24:22
Would love that.
2:24:23
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
2:24:24
So, Kansas and I are talking about doing some gigs together
2:24:29
in California next year.
2:24:30
Oh,
2:24:31
Sanaa Pharayra: awesome.
2:24:32
Rupert Isaacson: So maybe that's something we should do.
2:24:33
Maybe we should get together and look at how the classical work goes into this.
2:24:38
Which y- you're already doing.
2:24:40
But maybe some ways to systematize it.
2:24:43
Sanaa Pharayra: I would love that, and also if, if you can keep me in the loop
2:24:46
on scheduling, and I know when you're gonna be in town, I'll try to plan
2:24:51
some therapy visits when you're h- when you are here, so that you can- Okay
2:24:55
Maybe come with us and see what we're doing, so you can see us-
2:24:58
I would love to â¦ in the field.
2:25:00
Rupert Isaacson: I would love to.
2:25:02
And with your permission I might film some of that and put that on YouTube.
2:25:04
Sanaa Pharayra: Yeah.
2:25:05
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:25:07
Sanaa Pharayra: That would be great.
2:25:07
Yeah, I did bring Kansas one time.
2:25:10
She came with me one time, and we talked about, you know, I wanted
2:25:14
to get some feedback from her on ways to make it, the horse
2:25:17
interactions better and, and whatnot.
2:25:19
So I think it would be amazing.
2:25:21
I'd love to have some collaborators and to be able to talk about it some more.
2:25:26
Rupert Isaacson: So watch this space, lads.
2:25:27
If you're listening or watching me, Kansas, and Sena will all get together
2:25:31
and we'll do a gig in-hand work with the amazing Romeo and some others.
2:25:35
And we'll let you know when this is gonna happen, and maybe you guys wanna
2:25:38
sign up and come, 'cause it will be fun.
2:25:40
That'd be
2:25:40
Sanaa Pharayra: great.
2:25:41
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
2:25:42
Brilliant.
2:25:43
Well, Sena, thank you so much for coming on.
2:25:46
I am-
2:25:47
Sanaa Pharayra: Oh, thank you.
2:25:47
That was a lot of fun, and I hope we can talk more.
2:25:50
There's so much more to talk about.
2:25:52
Rupert Isaacson: There, there absolutely is.
2:25:53
I think we should, we should do this again.
2:25:55
You know, and all the questions we didn't get to ask.
2:25:58
And- Listeners, watchers, if you've got questions, things like,
2:26:02
put them in the comments below.
2:26:03
We will respond.
2:26:04
We read them all.
2:26:05
And if you ask us to talk with Sanaa again about stuff that youâ¦
2:26:10
We will.
2:26:11
So just, just tell us, and we'll respond.
2:26:15
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2:26:19
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