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The Great Obsession · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  Hey, welcome back. This is Ammon. I'm joined with John. We're going to begin chapter three of The Big Book, more about alcoholism today.
• 0:08
  You can find more info and subscribe to the daily reflection at progressandperfection.com. Chapter three, we're about to get into the steps. More about alcoholism. At the top of my book, I have step one. Yeah.
• 0:23
  That says- We're, we're about to actually get into- Step one... now I, I kind of break them up. You know, Bill's story is kind of like a step one-er- Mm...
• 0:31
  'cause it's, you know, here's, here's what happened, what it's like, what it was like, what happened for him. Yeah. That's true. And then you really have like,
• 0:39
  if you, if you theme the steps and you don't start counting number three until it hits number three, that's in like chapter five. Yeah. So you got chapters two, three and four that's like one and two- Mm-hmm...
• 0:51
  steps one and two- Mm-hmm... between those three chapters. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I got. Top of chapter four, second step. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Top of chapter three, step one. But yeah, I can see what you're saying.
• 1:03
  You extend it back to the story, to Bill's story, as kind of the prelude, the beginnings of step one. 'Cause I mean, I guess that's, you know...
• 1:15
  I guess that was kind of reflecting back, that was kind of my experience of step one, was sort of giving your story. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, and demonstrating the powerlessness and unmanageability along the way.
• 1:31
  So- Yep... yep, that makes sense. All right, so- All right... read away. I will read away. Chapter three. Most of us, [clears throat] most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics.
• 1:46
  No person likes to think he's bodily and mentally different from his fellows.
• 1:50
  Therefore, it's not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people.
• 1:59
  The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.
• 2:14
  We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we're like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.
• 2:27
  Can't tell you how many times I reflect on that- [clears throat]... that, that passage in that first paragraph,
• 2:34
  sitting with guys, just the idea that somehow, someday, he will be able to control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. It's what sends everybody back out. Yeah.
• 2:49
  That this time- It'll be different... it's gonna be different. Yeah. This time it'll be different.
• 2:53
  You know, I'm using whatever Houdini tricks or I'm putting the guardrails on them with this, that, the other, and this time it's gonna be different. Um, just that, that obsession to the, obsession to the lie- And-...
• 3:09
  I guess... and sometimes it is different. Mm. A different kind of bad. Right. You know? [chuckles] Yeah. Different worse, right? Yeah, I've got that second paragraph- Mm... circled as, as the solution. Mm-hmm.
• 3:21
  Like, we gotta start here. Right. We've gotta concede. Right. Um, and, and it calls out what it is. It's the, it's a delusion. Mm-hmm. You know? Calls it an illusion first and then a delusion. Mm-hmm. And, and, uh,
• 3:35
  so long as I hold onto that, I, I don't, I can't fully recover. Mm-hmm. Why do you think it's so hard for people to accept that they're alcoholics?
• 3:50
  Stigma used to be a worse deterrent than it is today, but stigma is still a part of it. Mm-hmm. Is, is, you know, just the stigma of having an issue with a substance. Mm-hmm.
• 4:02
  Being an alcoholic, being a druggie, drug addict, whatever you wanna call it. Mm-hmm. So we buck up, I think, against a label. Um, but then furthermore, like I... It's comparison for me. Mm-hmm.
• 4:19
  Like, I look around and I see you doing this thing, and I wanna be able to do that thing. Mm. I don't wanna have a limitation put on myself. Mm-hmm.
• 4:28
  Um, I, I think still today that's one of my character defects is I, I compare more than I should.
• 4:34
  I judge more than I should, and I, I think that, uh, think that I should be able to do, to be all things for all people or to do all things or, or however you wanna put a label on that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 4:47
  It, it just comes right down to sort of an immature, selfish desire- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... uh, in a lot of circumstances for me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think like
• 4:59
  when I think about that question, it's almost, I think for some people, well, maybe for most people, it's an, it's an admission of defeat. Yeah. If that makes sense.
• 5:14
  You know, and so like nobody wants to admit that they're defeated. Nobody wants to admit that they're ruled over by someone else, much less like a substance. And it does, it's almost like this last
• 5:27
  hurdle of acceptance that we have to move into and sort of the waving of the white flag. Mm-hmm. But I think as we'll find as we continue through this,
• 5:40
  what we feel like may be defeat or sort of this final act of surrender or sort of this label, it actually comes with a, a lot of promise, you know, and a lot of, um,
• 5:56
  a lot of like foresight, like dreaming. Possibilities become a lot more crystallized when you admit this label. Mm-hmm. It's not a death sentence like a lot of people feel.
• 6:09
  It's like the opportunity to, to, to almost like be reborn. You, you think you're closing a door when you're actually opening another one Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 6:20
  Mm-hmm But still, it's a hurdle Mm-hmm I think it's a good way to put it Mm-hmm Because we wanna win. Like, at the core- Mm-hmm... I don't wanna be defeated by something- Mm-hmm...
• 6:30
  by a, a sporting event, by a substance, by anything. Mm-hmm. I, I just, I wanna be victorious Right. All right. We alcoholics are men and women who've lost the ability to control our drinking.
• 6:44
  We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control.
• 6:49
  All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals, usually brief, were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization.
• 7:02
  We're convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period, we get worse, never better. So ask you about this control thing.
• 7:15
  Hmm Was that a, was that at the top of your list? Man, if I could just control this. Hmm.
• 7:20
  Or was it, you know, y- I hear of people say, "Well, when I control it, I don't enjoy it, and when I enjoy it, I'm not controlling it." Mm-hmm.
• 7:28
  And I don't know if when I was drinking I was ever shooting for control- Mm-hmm... except in those foxhole prayer moments of, oh, I need to do... I ne- it needs to be different next time Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 7:39
  Yeah, so when I think about that- Yeah... I think about, like, parameters, like boundaries that I can put around my alcohol use- Hmm... to give myself the illusion of control. You know, so maybe, like,
• 7:57
  the control might look like, "Oh, well, I'm not gonna drive," or the control might look like, "We got a designated driver for tonight." Um,
• 8:08
  you know, the, the control might look like, and I think we've, we've seen this prior, but, like, "I'm not gonna drink any whiskey." Yeah. "I'm just gonna drink beer when we go out tonight," or whatever.
• 8:23
  Um, "I'm only going to drink wine." You know, "I'm only going to drink... I will never drink before work." Hmm. You know [chuckles], "I will only drink after work. I will only drink on the weekends."
• 8:35
  You know, so sort of establishing these boundaries that give maybe myself the appearance of control
• 8:43
  when all the while, if I'm brave enough to look at myself in the mirror, I know I have zero control over this thing, that left to my own devices, like, it's going to absolutely consume me.
• 8:54
  So I think that's kind of what, what I think about there. Looking for, looking for reasons of permissibility for yourself. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We are like men who've lost their legs. They never grow new ones.
• 9:08
  Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of our kind like other men. We've tried every imaginable remedy.
• 9:17
  In some instances, there has been brief recovery, followed always by a still worse relapse. Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there's no such thing as making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic.
• 9:31
  Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't done so yet. Hmm. Any thoughts on that? Well, and like, yeah, like, do you want it to? Yeah. I mean, that's what I think about.
• 9:44
  Like, even if science could develop that ability, is that really what the problem is? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Or is, or is the problem a layer deeper then? That's right.
• 9:55
  'Cause science, I think, maybe, probably, I don't know, can speak towards the physical component at least. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm But if, if the root of it really is spiritual in nature- Right...
• 10:06
  as this book posits that it is- Right... you know, that's only one thread in- Right... in, in the whole deal.
• 10:12
  Yeah, and then once you've had that spiritual transformation or spiritual awakening, do you even desire to engage in that? Yeah. What are you looking for? Is that even necessary anymore- Mm-hmm...
• 10:22
  for you to enjoy experiences or relationships or life or sporting events or whatever- Yeah... y- you know, your drinking was surrounded by? Um, does e- that even become a necessary component? Um,
• 10:38
  a- a- how much, how familiar are you with the whole, like, moderation movement now? Like, the solution isn't abstinence. It's, like, learning how to drink in moderation. Well- Even with drugs and stuff. It's got a name.
• 10:53
  It's not the tolerance movement. What's the name of that? Oh, and, and- Harm reduction Yeah. We- That's what it is... and we put it in a previous- Yes... one of the early episodes. We talked a minute about it. Yeah.
• 11:00
  Yeah. And I mean, I, uh, I see it, um... I, I'm not super familiar with, like- Mm-hmm... that formal movement. Mm-hmm.
• 11:08
  But I see popularized more and more, like, this, you know, people, ordinary non-alcoholics or at least self-labeled getting sober or moderating their drinking or having a period of sobriety to get health and other wellbeing stuff in right alignment.
• 11:27
  Right. That seems to me, at, at least this year I've seen that. Maybe it's 'cause we're doing more of this stuff ourselves, I'm paying attention more, the new car syndrome. Mm-hmm.
• 11:37
  But, but I've seen that more and more just on the internet and in, in- Yeah... modern stuff- Yeah... of, oh, it's, it's actually more cool to get sober now- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... or, or some flavor of sobriety. Right. Right.
• 11:50
  And we're not gonna label it alcoholic- Right... or alcoholism, but- Right. Dry January. Yeah. Yeah. That was huge. Yep. And still- Dry January... that's a big thing. Mm-hmm. Sober October. Mm-hmm.
• 12:00
  Yeah, taking these sort of month vacations to reset. Mm-hmm. Uh, which I mean, I think is wonderful. It's great. It's admirable. Yeah. Yeah. But what do you go back to? Well, for the normal person, it's all good, right?
• 12:14
  Mm-hmm. I mean, I think, and that's what I see, uh, at least my perception- Mm-hmm... that's, that's what I kinda label that broad modern movement as is normal people being a little more healthy- Yeah...
• 12:27
  and practicing some good stuff- Right... in moderation, actually being able to do it. Mm-hmm. Going back with a, all the stuff that I thought, I, you know, I could kind of control and enjoy- Mm-hmm...
• 12:38
  when I was looking at- Yeah... why can't I moderate? Right. Right. And for them- Mm-hmm... you know, dear listener, that's you, I mean, that's, that's a good litmus test, right? Right.
• 12:48
  Get off of it, go back on, and if it goes right back to a progression that's worse- Right... yeah, maybe something worth investigating here. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Um, me, I never, I never succeeded in- Right...
• 13:02
  any sort of moderation. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fasten a few days at a time. Yeah. But I'll, yeah, and I, I, I like that, and I, I'll use that strategy with people who, you know, would not say that they're alcoholics.
• 13:15
  Mm-hmm. I'll be like, "Bro, if you're not, like, just take 40 days off, 45 days off." Sure. Yeah. Let's let your neurotransmitters restabilize, 'cause, like, if it's not a big deal, it's not a big deal. Yeah. You know?
• 13:25
  So just really sort of gently, like, proposing that opportunity, and, and several people do. Mm-hmm. But what happens on day 46 is the shit show- [laughs]...
• 13:36
  comes back alive, you know, the progression, and it doesn't stop. Yeah. You know, it's the, it's the, it's the lion in the cage analogy.
• 13:43
  "Despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not gonna believe they're in that class," to your point. Mm-hmm.
• 13:54
  "By every form of self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore non-alcoholic.
• 14:02
  If anyone who's showing inability to control his drinking can do the right about face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows we tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people.
• 14:16
  Here are some of the methods we tried: drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never com- never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever, with and without a solemn oath, taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums.
• 14:54
  We could increase the list ad infinitum." Mm-hmm. "We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest bar room and try some controlled drinking.
• 15:09
  Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide if you're honest with yourself about it.
• 15:18
  It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you have, if you get a full knowledge of your condition.
• 15:25
  Though there's no way of proving it, we, we believe that early in our drinking careers, most of us could have stopped drinking. But the difficulty is that few alcoholics have enough desire to stop while there's yet time.
• 15:38
  We've heard of a few instances where people who showed definite signs of alcoholism were able to stop for a long period because of an overpowering desire to do so." Mm-hmm. "Here is one." Mm-hmm.
• 15:51
  And we're about to go into the story of this guy. Yeah, just quickly, um, that first paragraph you read was- Mm... kind of like those boundaries that I was talking about. Yep. You know?
• 16:00
  That, that sort of allow you to deposit this idea that I'm in more control over this, um, than maybe, maybe I am. Um, which I think is great.
• 16:12
  I think, I think, like, whatever it takes you to get to that point where you recognize that this is problematic. For sure. And that's why I like the challenge there. You know, like, look, bro, I'm not gonna tell you,
• 16:24
  but do something. Let's, let's have an experiment- Yeah... and go find out. Yeah. You know? And give yourself the opportunity. Don't just do it once, do it twice. Mm-hmm.
• 16:33
  Uh, and if you got a problem, you're gonna show it, and if not, like, right on. You know? Um. I think it's interesting they make note, uh, if you're honest with yourself about it too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 16:45
  So even in an experiment like this, how quickly the self-deception can sneak back in. Mm. Mm-hmm. And it's just, just a little subtle nudge there, like- Right... you know. Right. Yeah. You, you, you gotta...
• 16:57
  You're only fooling yourself- Right... if you're gonna actually try an experiment like this. Right. Right. Yeah, and, and, and, like, I think that's where, [clears throat] [sighs]
• 17:07
  maybe it's kind of dangerous to say, but I think that's where, like, observation reports are also handy. Mm. You know?
• 17:16
  Because sometimes that w- we've done such a good job of hoodwinking ourselves and fooling ourselves that it's not a problem, that the input of a loved one or a spouse or a kid or a parent can be pretty crucial.
• 17:29
  And sometimes even a friend- Mm... when they're like, "Dude, you don't drink like the rest of us do." Mm-hmm. You know? Like- Gut check. Yeah, even sometimes that can be eye-opening.
• 17:42
  I've had a couple of people end up in my office because of that. Mm-hmm. Because friends have been brave enough to confront them and say like, "Dude, we all go to bed. You stay up till 6:00 in the morning."
• 17:54
  [laughs] You know? Yeah. They're like, "Whoa." Slight difference. "Maybe you're right." You know? And it takes some balls to bring that up to somebody. Yeah. But how important that can be. For sure. For sure.
• 18:07
  So yeah, yeah, I think, like, sometimes to your point, that honesty with yourself can be difficult to get. Mm. But if we're brave enough to have the input of other people, I think that can be poignant. Mm.
• 18:21
  So we can't do this alone either? Right. [laughs] Right. Back to that always. Right. Right. All right, here we got a story. "A man of 30 was doing a great deal of spree drinking.
• 18:36
  He was a very, he was very nervous in the morning after these bouts, and quieted himself with more liquor. He was ambitious to succeed in business, but saw that he would get nowhere if he drank at all.
• 18:48
  Once he started, he had no control whatever. He made up his mind that until he had been successful in business and had retired, he wouldn't touch another drop.
• 18:59
  An exceptional man, he remained bone dry for 25 years, and retired at the age of 55 after a successful and happy business career.
• 19:08
  Then he fell delusion to a belief which practically every alcoholic has, that his long period of sobriety and self-discipline had qualified him to drink as other men."
• 19:20
  And I've got [laughs] I got that underlined and starred. Me too. And I've got a note, uh, mentioning someone that I knew with nine years that fell victim to that same belief. Mm-hmm. Not the only person, either. Mm-hmm.
• 19:33
  Um, "Out came his carpet slippers and a bottle. In two months he was in a hospital, puzzled and humiliated. He tried to regulate his drinking for a while, making several trips to the hospital meantime.
• 19:47
  Then, gathering all his forces, he attempted to stop altogether, and found that he could not. Every means of solving his problem which money could buy was at his disposal. Every attempt failed.
• 20:00
  Though a robust, a robust man at retirement, he went to pieces quickly and was dead within four years." Hmm. "This case contains a powerful lesson.
• 20:11
  Most of us have believed that if we remain sober for a long stretch, we could thereafter drink normally. But here's a man who's at, who at 55 years found he was just where he had left off at 30.
• 20:25
  We've seen the truth demonstrated again and again. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Commencing to drink after a period of sobriety, we are in a short time as bad as ever.
• 20:38
  If we're planning to stop drinking, there must be no reservation of any kind, nor any lurking notion that someday we will be immune to alcohol." It's amazing, like two months he was in the hospital. Yeah.
• 20:53
  Like, he hit it hard, bro. Out of the gate. He came out hard, you know what I'm saying? 20-year pause. You g- you better come out running after 20 years. He came out hard, and then was dead in four years. Yeah.
• 21:07
  Like, before he was 60 he was dead, so he works all this year for retirement, and the gift he gets is an alcoholic death. Kills him, yep. Like, that's incredible. That's, that, it's, that always,
• 21:20
  that's always an incredible story to me. Uh, okay. So, uh, let's see. "There must be no reservation of any kind, nor any lurking notion that someday we will be immune to alcohol." What do you think about that statement?
• 21:34
  Well, that'll throw you off if you're trying to think about getting sober. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I'll tell you, I had lurking notions. Mm-hmm. And I had reservations. Mm-hmm.
• 21:43
  Um, but I, I think it's, I think it's important that this truth remains written down. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I mean, when I, when I went to treatment, I w- well, let me back up. When I asked for help- Mm-hmm...
• 22:01
  and I got to that point of, "Okay, I'm screwed, and I, I gotta do something different. I don't know if I'm gonna get sober forever. I don't know what the solution is, but I gotta, can't keep doing this." Mm-hmm.
• 22:12
  I was at this point of there's no lurking notion. I've gotta give it, I gotta give something 100%. Mm-hmm. Well, that lasted for 24 hours. Mm. [laughs] Right. And after asking for help, I went out and kept drinking.
• 22:26
  Mm-hmm. Until I got on the plane to go down to Mississippi. Um, so I, I think there's a, it's a both/and.
• 22:37
  It's, it's sort of a paradox thing, because yeah, we, we cannot kid ourselves that we're going to be immune at some point, like this guy, after some amount of sobriety that I'm gonna- Right... but I, I also,
• 22:54
  I also think most of us go through the motions of early sobriety, of, "Oh man, I've got these super high highs of I'm on top of the world." Right. "I feel great. Finally I feel great." Right.
• 23:06
  Followed two hours later by just despair again. Mm-hmm. And depression, and anxiety, and, "A drink would fix this." Mm-hmm. And it's a ping pong. Mm-hmm.
• 23:18
  Often days are ping pongs just between those extremes in, in early sobriety. Yeah. So a long way to talk around the question. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know how I feel about this- Mm...
• 23:30
  other than I believe it to be true, but I also want to encourage anyone who doesn't think that they're at a point of completely no holds barred, "Oh, I, I can't do it again. I know that.
• 23:42
  I have no reservations, so I can get sober." Right. Like, it's not exactly a formula. Yeah. Yeah. What, what do you think? Yeah. No, I, I, I appreciate that.
• 23:51
  Like, one thought that comes to my mind is that, like, you don't, you don't know what's in the future, and so it's difficult to make that type of declarative statement based upon, like, reservations or notions- Mm-hmm...
• 24:09
  when you don't know what those things might have to be. Like, I, I can, I can, I can be pretty darn sure that today I am not going to drink.
• 24:26
  But if I get a phone call that my wife and kids are dead-... in a car crash, I don't know what I'm gonna do. Mm.
• 24:39
  I'd like to think that like, "Oh, I'll go to an AA meeting, and I'll call Amen, and I'll surround myself with good people." Mm.
• 24:49
  But honestly, you wanna call that a lurking notion or whatever it is, I, I, I don't know what I'm gonna do. All bets are off. The unknown future. That's kind of what I'm saying. Yeah.
• 25:00
  So it's, it's, it's kind of difficult to, to, to say like absolutely no reservations, no lurking notions- Mm... no ifs, ands, or buts. Because I don't know what life might throw at me. Yeah.
• 25:11
  And I don't know how I might respond to that. And, and like, like I said, like I'd, I'd love to think that I'm, I'm going to respond well to something like that. But at the same time, brother, I don't know. Mm.
• 25:25
  I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Mm. Like, I don't know. I don't know where tragedy might meet me and how I might react to it. You know, I know how I would react to it in the long run- Mm-hmm...
• 25:37
  but the initial shock and awe of something like that could be so cataclysmic for me that the only way that I could tolerate it is with booze, just to get the shock and awe out of the way. Mm. You know what I'm saying?
• 25:55
  Mm. Now, God willing, that's never gonna occur. Mm. You know? Like- Yeah... that I'm not gonna get a phone call like that. Um, therefore, I wouldn't be confronted with it. Mm, mm.
• 26:05
  But when I think about that statement, that's kind of where my head goes. It's like, man, I don't know how tragic tomorrow might be, and I don't know how I would react to that tragedy, you know? Mm-hmm.
• 26:18
  Best we can hope for is developing a long track record of doing the right thing- Mm-hmm... to prepare ourselves for whatever tomorrow brings, whenever that tomorrow gets- Right... to us. Right.
• 26:32
  And, you know, some of us walk through super difficulty like that- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... and some of us, you know, just kind of piddling around the middle of the road. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 26:42
  Um, I think as I'm thinking about it more, just where this falls in the, the writing of the book in this chapter feels like- Yeah... feels more like a sponsor talking to me like- Yeah... "Hey." Yeah.
• 26:56
  "Are you ready to do this thing?" Right. "Are you ready to go?" Right. "Let's go." Right. And let's not, you know, let's not mess around. Let's not call an apple an orange. Mm-hmm. You're alcoholic.
• 27:06
  Let's just get busy and, and get into the solution. Right, right, right. Um, you know, I, I me- my sponsor asked me, uh, something to the effect of, "Are you willing to go to any length to get sober?" Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 27:16
  Like in the very beginning. Right. And he would point back to that- Mm-hmm... in pr- in, uh, talks down the road as we got to know each other and go through the steps like- Mm-hmm... "You know, bro, remember- Mm-hmm...
• 27:28
  you decided. You, you made that decision, so let's just stay with it." Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:33
  Yeah, no, I think that's, I think that's a, a, a wonderful observation, like the placement of that statement, especially following the once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Mm-hmm.
• 27:43
  You know, and it is kind of a call to like, um, call to readiness to the task. Um, and in that, in that way, like, yeah, I could, I could see how the response is like, "Yeah, I'm ready to go." Mm-hmm. You know?
• 27:59
  "I'm ready to go." But it's funny you said like when you, when you, uh, got clean, you, you had lurking notions, uh, 'cause I've got written down here, "I still have a lurking notion- Yeah...
• 28:10
  with the date on it, [both laughing] like when I wrote it. You know, so I think that's funny. Yep. Yeah, like even at that time. But I think it can like stand as testimony that even with a lurking notion- For sure...
• 28:23
  you can still get clean. For sure. You know? It's not like this ultimate qualifier. Not only can you, but also can be used and to the benefit of others- That's right... after you- That's right...
• 28:35
  which is like the whole point of all this stuff. It's like pass it on. Yep, that's right. [upbeat music] Hey, thanks for listening.
• 28:42
  You can find more information and subscribe to the daily newsletter over at progressandperfection.com. We'll talk to you next week.