Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 165: Gerrit-Jan van Velze - Life Beyond the Final Whistle: Sheep, Shoes and Secondwind

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165: Gerrit-Jan van Velze - Life Beyond the Final Whistle: Sheep, Shoes and Secondwind · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What is it that changed during your rugby career that started to open you up to explore your interests outside of the game?
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: I think if you wind the clock back and I can tell you the date and the time is like in 2015,.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: I was at Worcester Warriors club captain, being paid well, loving my life.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: My wife is a doctor.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: She moved over.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: We then got married.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Doctor.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: She moved over, we then got married.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: She always had this idea on specializing or becoming a consultant, whether it was in radiology or radiotherapy or anesthesia or a surgeon.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: I experienced the passion she had for what she did and I was like, wow, that's not even sport, but look at the passion she has for what she does and that she wants to invest even more time.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: This is nine years into studying.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Now she wants to do a further seven or eight years.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: So I think that had an impact on me.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Elite athletes are still people after all.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: GJ, thanks for joining me on the show today.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Great to have you on Career Clarity with Athletes.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: No, thank you very much for having me.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: It's nice to speak to somebody who's in the southern hemisphere, who's not experiencing the same nice weather we're experiencing at the moment.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: No, I feel like I'm in the wrong place.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Probably for the first time, someone in England trumps me for weather because it is quite miserable here at the moment.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Well, technically we've both swapped hemispheres to have this chat today, but it's good to speak to you to get a bit of an understanding of your career and what I guess that transition is like for you coming out of you know full-time professional as an athlete and some of the things and twists and turns that you've had to navigate along your way.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: And so, look, I think what would be fantastic is just to get a quick intro as to who you are and you know for many people listening and watching what you're up to nowadays.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: So, like I said, I'm very lucky.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: I've played professional sport all my life.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: My goal was always to be a professional rugby player.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: There was no opportunity to have a second choice.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: It was all in all my eggs in one basket.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: I was lucky enough to join my boyhood club straight out of school into a professional environment, a team that was super successful.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: When I joined them when I was at school, they were probably the worst team in the Super Rugby League.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: And then 2012,.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: I was at the end of about three back-to-back injuries which kept me again for a long time.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I got into some bad habits, as any young kid would probably do if you've got more time on your hands, no real clarity and probably a little bit of money to spend.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: I got to the crossroads where I had to decide whether I either continue the way I am, which probably means my career will end within two seasons at 26, which is very young or the decision to move abroad, initially only for two years, to go and learn to speak proper English and get exposed to a different environment, and then come back to South Africa.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Reluctantly, as a mama's boy youngest of three, I moved abroad to England.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: I couldn't cook for myself at the time.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I didn't speak great English.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: I could help myself, but not great.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: I joined Northampton Saints and my very first day at the club I introduced myself to a guy called Phil Dowson, who's now actually the director of rugby.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: I said to him morning, mate, my name's Gharadian, and he just looked at me and he said that's a shit name.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Get a new name.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: So the first and only thing I could come up with was GJ.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: So I've been GJ ever since.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: I had a great time, an amazing time, at Saints.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: We were very successful as a club.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: We won trophies for the first time in I don't know how many years.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: I then joined Worcester Warriors, who was an underperforming club.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: I got attracted to that challenge because it's a club that's never had success and I've always wanted to be part of something that's a first.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: So I thought that was quite special.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Naively, I stayed at the club for seven years, which was too long.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: I thought that as a leader you can affect everything around you.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: You could probably manage slightly up the chain, but I didn't.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: I was naive to think how much of an impact I can have Then at 2021, I always knew a second career has to start, so I was of the opinion just rip the bandage off, jump into your next career, whatever that may be.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: So I did that for 12 months and then, by chance, my phone rang and I had opportunity to join Bath, initially as a consultant, non-playing.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: The chairman at the time had quite a unique way on how to get me involved.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: He knew I get drawn to a challenge, so he challenged me whether I wanted to play.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: I initially said no, went back into playing one season, which turned up to be a second season, and then, ultimately, that's why I finished my career.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: So yeah, in a very long-winded answer, that's where I am where I am today.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: If it wasn't for rugby, I would not be sitting here and talking to you.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks for that overview, and I would say, you know, I think that end point is a fantastic one.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: If it wasn't for rugby, wasn't for the sport, you wouldn't be, and it is.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: I always say sport is like a, it is a passport to the world.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: It helps open you up to new people, new cultures and, as you say, new names as well, which is, I guess, as we're starting to navigate different languages and pronunciations.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Navigate different languages and pronunciations.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much to unpack and that's really what I want to do is just listening to that story.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: You talk about one starting in the game and not having any choice.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Really, if rugby was the thing for you, what do you mean by that?
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: I think, like as a South African growing up, you've got to think like my age I was born in 88, 95 is when South Africa won the World Cup for the first time.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: I can still remember sitting in front of the TV with my Springbok shirt, watching Joel Stransky kick a drop goal to win it an extra time, watching Nelson Mandela hand over the trophy to Fran Tropicano.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: So, like those are memories that are engraved in my mind and I'll never get rid of them.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: So, with that in mind and me always loving sports, it was Hansi Gronier from a cricket point of view, it was Franschopinard from rugby, and it was just like it has to be sport, that's all I want to do.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: And then being lucky enough to have parents that can support me and challenge me and drive me to coaching and drive me to tournaments, so that was just always the dream we always ask kids when we're young what do you want to be when you grow up?
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: My answer was always professional sport.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: And then again, a lot of hard work and a lot of luck got me to a place where I could play representative rugby and then got me into the bulls.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: But my parents you've got to think like my mom is a qualified teacher economics degree, my dad's a doctor, my elder sister is an accountant, my middle sister is an occupational therapist.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: And then it's me.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: I've got no degree.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: My parents always said to me you have to study, you have to have a backup plan, you have to.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: But I was naive or young or whatever the word ignorant.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: I just thought, no, like rugby for me is the end goal, that's what I wanted to do.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: So in hindsight, yes, it would have been easy if I had a degree or something to fall back on.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: But I realized at a young age, like I'm not the quickest, I'm not the strongest, I'm not the first name on the sheet.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: I feel like I had to work so much harder to get there that I wanted to have no regrets when it got to that phase because I'm not the most talented person.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Like, if I'm being brutally honest, I was a bang average rugby player.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: So what is it then?
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I saw my first question comes into.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Do you think you could have achieved what you did in rugby and longevity that you had in rugby, if you'd put 10%, 15%, 20% of your time towards getting a degree?
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess 100%.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: I could have done that because when you're young and probably now for me, still at that time you thought everything's training, it's 100%, you never switched off, it's full time all the time.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: But in actual fact, research shows you that athletes perform better, they're more durable if they have something outside of the game.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Strangely enough, I understood that without knowing that later in my career, from 25 onwards, I didn't study, but I had a huge interest in other things which I invested time and energy into.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: So for me it wasn't a degree In 2013, I did a level one plumbing diploma because I was curious, not because I wanted to become a plumber, it was just it could be quite interesting to understand how it works.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: I've always had an entrepreneurial side to me, so I would go and spend a day with a CEO in London or the bank and ask questions.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: That led me to my first company I ever founded was an entrepreneurial side, but it was never backed with a education degree formal training.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: That is probably one of the things I've heard on the podcast, which is what you've described.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: There is an intent not to do a degree, but to follow the things that were interesting, and to learn is probably the right phrase.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: It's not like you're averse to learning, it was more.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know if a degree is going to help, but you then found throughout your career, it seems, or latterly in the career, opportunities to learn and experience, and I guess just take your interest down the path and see where it took you.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's an accurate way of describing it.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: It's not that I was anti-learning, it just wasn't interesting for me at the time.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: It was more interesting to understand how do you start a company, how do you do tax returns, how do you convince somebody to buy something of you if it's a luxury item, like the psychology behind purchasing, like those things I find very, very interesting and I guess you can learn a lot about that in a formal education side.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: I just haven't done it yet.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: No, well, interesting, you added the word yet.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: So we'll have to see.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Let's see where we get to with this, but it is fascinating how you followed it and it was perhaps on that practical side.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: You're interested in plumbing, you know practical aspect, and so do you think.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know how much you look at learning styles and approaches, you know, and it's always important to have this mix of things, but it seems like you follow those interests in natural ways of things, but it seems like you follow those interests in natural ways.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: What is it that changed during your rugby career that started to open you up, to explore your interests outside of the game?
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: I think if you wind the clock back and I can tell you the date and the time is like in 2015, I was at Worcester Warriors club captain being paid well my life.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: My wife is a doctor.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: She moved over.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: We then got married.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: She always had this idea on specializing or becoming a consultant, whether it was in radiology or radiotherapy or anesthesia or a surgeon.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: I experienced the passion she had for what she did and I was like, wow, that's not even sport.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: But look at the passion she had for what she did.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: And I was like, wow, that's not even sport.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: But look at the passion she has for what she does and that she wants to invest even more time.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: This is nine years into studying Now she wants to do a further seven or eight years.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: So I think that had an impact on me.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Then you have conversations with players you look up to and then you go like, what are you guys doing now?
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: How's life after rugby?
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: Because from the day I started until probably last season, the topic has always been doom and gloom, like it's so bad, like enjoy the moment now, you're never going to get it back, you're going to be retired for a long time, and I found that quite negative.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Now, whether that was the intention of the way we communicated or not, I don't know, I just found it extremely negative.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: So I was curious on why people think the best part of your life is 20 to 35 or whatever your career is Like.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Surely there are things post 35, post professional sport.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: That is also amazing.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: It might not be the same, but it is also amazing.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: So there's an element of speaking to former players and understanding to them and then obviously, like lucky or unlucky, things happen that we don't like.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: We don't sign a contract we want, we don't move to a club we want or we get injured.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Then we have time to reflect, readjust, like I would imagine, most people have a five-year plan, a two-year plan, and then we have to make changes and concede certain grounds along the way and, like in my experience, the biggest catalyst for life after rugby was an injury.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: It was a nine and a half month injury.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: It was good people around me that asked the right question at the right time, going all just gj, what if it finishes tomorrow?
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: What then?
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: And I think that is the lucky side.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I was lucky in that, yes and you're looking on the bright side of that injury.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: In many respects having a good crew around you helped you to see what else actually you'd be good at and what would interest you.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: One of the bits I'm always interested in is the sort of athletic transition that we have.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: I know we talk a lot about the career transition, but often there's some seeds of interest in that athletic transition.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: And for you going from South Africa, I mean that's a huge move from you to go to South Africa, to the UK, not being able to cook, barely having a grasp of the language.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: What were you thinking you'd be able to achieve?
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I don't even know if I asked myself that question.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: There's always.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I'm attracted to things that shouldn't be successful.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I love proving people wrong, and that seed was planted in me when I was 19 years old by the head coach of my boyhood club who told me GJ, you're a lovely person, you're a great bloke, but you're simply not quick enough, you're not tough enough, you'll never make it a professional sport.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: So everything I've done from that meeting I had in 2008 has always been I'll prove you wrong.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: So when I had to make the tough decision whether I go to England or stay in my comfort zone, it was like what would prove that guy wrong?
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: And that was an easy decision.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: To prove him wrong, you have to go and prove yourself in a different environment, like at that time we looked at the northern hemisphere.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Or the premiership is like a very tough competition because it's slower.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Older people can play, so they're tough competition because it's slower, older people can play, so they're probably slightly tougher.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: It's not as fast.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: So there was a variety of things where I wanted to just prove to people that I can do it.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, rightly or wrongly, I was probably too naive to have this structured approach to decision-making at that age.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know what?
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: And sometimes that's the best thing, isn't it?
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: The naivety.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Like you said, you don't know what you don't know, and often you leap in and you get to experience it, and I suppose it was an environment and a style of game that you thrived in.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: What would you have said?
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: So, as you look, then, at the sort of the culture, the club culture, as you came through those ranks, and by ranks, I suppose I'm now looking at the role transition that you had off the field, from a new boy with a name no one could pronounce, moving through, as far as the game's concerned, as one of the club leaders.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: What was you know?
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: As you look back at that sort of process, are there any sort of key moments or inflection points where you started to realise wow, this is different for me.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Now I've moved into a new role.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: No, not so much.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: Within that first two years at Northampton I probably lucky.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: I have always been a captain of a team, whether that's at school or at provincial level, or I've always been within a leadership role, whether I chose it or whether it came naturally I don't know from a young age, but I've always enjoyed it.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: When I was at the Bulls as a junior, coming through all the way to the senior side, I captained every team at every age group up until the senior side.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: When I joined Northampton, there was a running joke I was on mute during the week because I didn't speak and then over weekends I'd find my voice and then go back to mute.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: So year one, I could guarantee you there was not even an idea that I'd be near a leadership position whatsoever.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Year two, and I don't know how or when or what happened, but I captained a few of the Northampton Saints side.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: And then, when I joined Worcester, within my first day joining up to the club, the director of rugby said to me you're going to be club captain of the year.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: So it's.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: I can't tell you how I reacted then and then, but I will be able to identify For me becoming club captain at a new club who wanted to go in a completely new direction.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: That's when I realized, okay, there's an opportunity to influence here.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: I need to become better.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: I need to understand what style or what's the best way for me to communicate, how can I relate to people, how can I connect deeper?
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: That's where my curiosity with people started.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Like, I've always been curious why do certain players thrive in one environment and why do they struggle in a similar environment?
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Or why does one player struggle with us and join another club and then they become absolute superstars?
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: That's till this day.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: I'm curious about what it is and how it works.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: And because we are even though we think we're not, we are so complex human beings we underestimate how complex we are yeah, the culture and the role of culture.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: And I guess, as you you know, you talk about moving into a leadership role for a club that wanted to move to a direction.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: When you find so, as you have found yourself in those leadership positions across different clubs, different countries and levels I'm not sure what my question is here, but it's something around what are the sort of values then perhaps that you would see that for you, have helped you form a culture, or the type of culture where you thrive as a leader?
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: yeah, I like.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: I probably base those things on my previous examples and experiences.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: So I went to a school called Afrikaans Wersian School, which is an all-boys school.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Just over a thousand boys went to boarding school there.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: I think it was the best time of my life.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Like you played sport.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: You were with your mates seven days a week and I think I got exposed, or I experienced a culture of nobody is bigger than anybody else, nobody is bigger than the team, nobody is bigger than the sport.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: You make absolute lifelong friends.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: So those lifelong friends don't have agendas.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: They tell you straight to your face whether they think you acted in the right way or the wrong way.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: There was no substitute for hard work, because in such a competitive environment every kid works so hard.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I'll never forget when I played under 14 trials your first year at school, my parents sat me down and said like I know you were in the first team and you were captain of your primary school, but like don't be surprised if you're in the.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: And I was like who on earth do they think they are to tell me that I'll be in the B team?
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: But it's like all those things, like you.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Again, I want to prove people wrong.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Again, I'm in a good environment.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: I then joined the Bulls Professional environment most successful period of that club ever Over there, everything was based on connection, getting to know people in a much deeper way than just a superficial hello how are you?
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Again, I can't understand how we managed to train and work as hard as we did when we were that age.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: If I look back on it now, it's stupid what we did, but that team went on to be the most successful team ever.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: So when I got to Worcester, it was what did I like in my previous experience?
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: What worked really well, and then getting to understand what will work within an English environment, because it is different, it can't be a copy and paste model and I made some blunders.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: I tried to introduce certain things, I had certain expectations of certain people and I got it wrong.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: I got it completely wrong and I'll be the first person to admit that.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: I think that's part of the growth period.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: What did you get wrong at that time?
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: I'm interested what sort of blunder that is as a leader so to give you context around it.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: So I leave Northampton Saints, who've just won the premiership.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: I join Worcester Warriors, who've just been relegated.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: So I go from the very top of the league to the team that's just been relegated.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: The director of rugby who came into Worcester they got relegated made wholesale changes across the board.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: So when I turned up it was all about this is a five-year plan, carte blanche, we start fresh.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: And I wrongly assumed that the people still at the club when I joined, who was part of the relegation thing, just either didn't care or didn't see the importance in this club getting back.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: So I probably had expectations which were too high I'm talking about support staff, I'm talking about commercial too high, I'm talking about support staff, I'm talking about commercial staff.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: And I'm talking about some players and I was probably too harsh on them because if I look back on it, in their world they were probably already at a certain level, performing at a high level.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: But me, coming from a club that just won the premiership, to that club, I was like it's way below par and instead of spending time and educating them on what actually is required, I probably, in a very South African way, very blunt, would have said like this shit's not good enough.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, and I don't think that is the right way to either treat people and I don't think it's the right way to start off at a new club, either treat people and I don't think it's the right way to start off at a new club.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: So there'd be countless examples of similar things where I got it wrong, or whether it was coaches or whether it was support staff who I just didn't feel were good enough in their job.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: There were moments where we would do rehab sessions and I'd turn up to a rehab session and we do an egg and spoon race like old gj would absolutely lose his shit like why on earth is a professional premiership rugby club doing an egg and spoon race in rehab?
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: But if I look back on it, I could have treated that subject or that matter so much better than just losing my shit.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, fascinating that because it comes in, like you say, a new leader coming in, and everything you have said so it's a beautiful reflection suggests it takes time for leadership to to come through.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: It takes time for that culture to be built, and I hear it in you now that patience is there, from perhaps errors you made, but also from looking back and reflecting.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: It just takes time to find that leadership and bring people along, which I guess, as the story goes, you did that successfully.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like varied levels of success, but I have definitely made a conscious decision from 2016 onwards to understand, be comfortable with what it is that I'm very good at, what are the things within my blind spot or what are the things that I can do a lot better at.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: My curiosity about getting better and my way to get better is something I underestimated at the time and then realized from 2016 onwards.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: If I really want to be the leader this club needs, or if I really want to be the person I think I am, I have to be truthful with myself and understand I don't know nearly as much as I think I am, and if I'm going to influence people and inspire people, I need to become better at this.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: It's like any other skill, whether it's learning to catch and pass or kicking off both feet.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: You have to create time to go and get better at that skill and also be realistic.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: It's not going to be natural.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: It's not going to be good the first time.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: It's going to take time.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, and so that time for you.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: At what point did you really start to think, hey, my career is going to finish, I'm going to stop playing full-time at some point and I'm going to have to move into something else?
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: When did that start to occur for you?
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, very easy.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: 2017,.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: We played opening round against Saracens at Twickenham.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: I was club captain that year.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Again, we had like a dismal preseason with like dual management documents being stolen.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Like I could entertain you for hours on what an absolute clown fest we were involved in, but I got a little bit of a whiplash, nothing major.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: I failed my HIA.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Go get back onto the pitch.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: That the normal at that stage.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: The protocol might have been seven days off feet or whatever, but I just I never felt normal.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: I felt like I was slightly hung over every day in a fog, in a daze, but I wasn't really concerned because I've always known there's injuries involved in sport.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: This is just another small hiccup.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: I then get told take an extra 14 days.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Why don't you take some time away?
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: My wife at the time she couldn't take any time away, so I jumped on a flight with two friends, we went away and then Graeme, who's one of my business partners now, said to me like so what are you going to do if rugby finishes tomorrow?
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Like most rugby players, I said to him I wasn't exactly sure it could be this, it could be that, and he's a very successful businessman and he, probably in a very elegant way, asked the same question a few times during that trip, which made me think.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: I then got told by a neurosurgeon in London that if you were my child I would never let you play rugby again, and that's when it shook me.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh wow, this isn't just maybe something I can get over.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: The uncertainty around that injury was the thing that broke me.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: There wasn't real evidence or just stay off feet for 14 days or do an integrated thing back into the uncertainty was tough, but that maybe just highlighted that it might come earlier.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: I've also been very lucky, like at this stage.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: I was paid handsomely for a rugby player.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: I was paid well, I was very happy.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: So if it comes, it comes.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: And then enough top management changes.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: I got involved in board meetings discussing some of my peers' futures contracts, which I think is a very unfair place to put a current player in, where decisions weren't really made on humans.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: It was very business, contract transactional, and I think that maybe shook me a little bit and said all right, it's lovely kicking a ball around with your mates in the sunshine, but there's a focus from a profit point of view that needs to be met and that was like the catalyst that made me think okay, dedicate time, sit down, assess what it is that you love, map out the next 10 years, map out the next five years, map out the next 12 months, six months, three months, and then, just like we are creatures of habit, so my whole life I've been given a schedule, a training program, the clothes I need to wear.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Just build my own schedule schedule, even though I wasn't physically training and being a professional rugby player.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Just figure out what it is and then just commit to it.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: We're pretty good, if you're a professional athlete, to commit to stuff.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: We just need to know yeah, I could do that.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, I fancy that.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Then we commit.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: So, like I, just I banked behind that I interested.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: It's going to sound really basic, but how did you then develop a schedule that wasn't integrated into sport but was focused on you looking outside of the game?
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: So I think my scenario was unique because of the whole ambiguity around concussion.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: At the time I had no schedule, so whether I turned into the club or whether I'd not turn up, nobody even questioned it.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: So I had so much free time so I mapped out all right, this is my normal schedule.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: I'm in Mondays, tuesdays, wednesdays off, thursday, friday, saturday, weekend.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: So I mapped out all right, I at least need to have four days doing actively something.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: I'll take one day off Now, bearing in mind I wasn't allowed to watch any TV or spend any time on my phone or a laptop, so that became very difficult.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: So the first thing I did was I bought eight ewes with a farmer From where I'm from in South Africa.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: You'll never be able to farm a sheep.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Learn a new skill, learn to farm a sheep.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: That got me outside.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: The second thing I did was Graham said to me like you know people, you're brilliant with people, why don't you become an agent?
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: And I was like all right, love people, agree, never want to be an agent.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Tick that off.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: How else can I be with people?
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: I then looked at business opportunity whether those are services or products or stuff like that and then, naively, I chose the most difficult one, the one I know the least of which is retail and leather products, because I thought, why not?
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: No one else would choose that.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: They'll go for something they already know, choose something I know the least of and just jump into that.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: So that's where I founded a company called Funfels Smith and we sell luxury leather boots.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: It's very classic stuff, and I just went all right, how do you do it?
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: No idea, find out, speak to manufacturers, go and see factories, find locations in the world.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: It was just because I had time, so I would then literally map out mornings will be allocated to sheep, afternoons will be allocated to product design, whatever I called it at the time.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you, so I just started tracking that.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: And then I go all right, where can I go for my own health and my own mental health from rugby point of view?
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Who are the people I respect?
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: And if I don't know, I'm going to find absolute experts in rehab.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: I've got a lady involved who I owe everything to of Julie Hayton, and I got Julie Hayton on board.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: I got her to start working with me.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: We then replicated a similar training schedule.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: We allocated time for a variety of things and I just took control of everything there because I didn't feel anybody was going to do anything for me.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: I had to do it myself you made me laugh, you surprised me and impressed me all in one little story.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I did not expect I was going to say exploration of what you can do outdoors, so I think that caught me left field and then you know.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Obviously I know the business you went into, but I was expecting a rationale for how shoes, leather goods, those products actually came in.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: But it sounds like it was just that looks fun.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Let me step into both of those things.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Go back to when you are young and you ask kids what do they want to be?
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: The naivety where they just go, oh, go back to when you are young and you ask kids what do they want to be?
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: The naivety where they just go oh, I want to go to space, I want to be an astronaut, I want to be a fireman.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I love the fact that you can drastically change your life within 18 months.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Now, I didn't know that at that time.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: I just love the dream.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: The kid in me that could dream about like the world is your absolute oyster.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Now my mom will to this day say that you could do anything you want to do as long as you put your mind and your soul to it.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: So I couldn't highlight it at the time as the reason for making the decision, but if I reflect back on it now, the fact that I could choose anything made me go for the ones that were probably most unrealistic.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know, it's funny, I'm reflecting nowhere near to the same extent.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I remember, as I was leaving football, I went to university and then I realized I felt how dull university would have been if I did just business.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: I was like I'll do marketing because it sounded cool at the time and I was like, oh, I can do French as well and get to study overseas.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: And then since then I've just traveled right with sport, with banking, whatever it is.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: It just got me overseas as as random not quite the same as sheep and shoes are a footwear business, but I get what you mean where you just start to look and say, wow, so if I'm not doing this spot, I could do anything, how can I go out and explore that?
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: And it sounds like you had help.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: It sounds like you had people giving you, or at least in your business partner, probing you through questioning, but then also helping you to recognize what you are naturally good at so you could learn.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: But you were good with people, so how do you get out and do things like that?
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Absolutely with sheep.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: There's that physical aspect to it as well, but you didn't stop the sport.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Your natural integration or structure helped you to get on top of your concussion, to get on top of your injury so that you would be able to in some way come back and play again, but maintain health yeah, I think the one thing I'm really luck of, I've got a very close-knit group of people, whether they're friends or mentors or whatever category they fall in.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: These are people that I have made notes within my diary across the whole year to check in with them.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: For some of them it's biweekly, for some it's monthly, for some it's only once or twice a year, and I've done that from a young age and I don't know where I learned it.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know who's the person that introduced me to it, but all of these people had some impact or some opinion on what I was sharing with them and that would have guided me across the line, like I never lost focus.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: That rugby was the number one goal, will always remain the number one goal when I was contracted as a rugby player and I absolutely loved rugby at that time.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: So it was still the kid running around barefoot in 1995 celebrating the box, winning the world cup like that kid was still alive in me and I get like that's the value of an unbelievable network or support structure around you is those people truly know you?
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: They're not there to be a cheerleader, they're not there to question everything you do.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: They're there because they want you to be happy and they want you to reach your potential or maybe exceed your potential.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: So I think that is probably one of the most valuable things any human being could be, whether we're discussing transition or any person.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Having good people in your life is the difference between loving life and just living.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Fully, fully agree with you there.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: I called it a crew pit mentality.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: But having people in your corner who want to be there because of you as a person, not because of what you do right, not because of what you play or companies or anything like that, but simply because you know they have a love for you as an individual, and you know we lose sight of that sometimes and I know I was speaking with again on the show a few months back.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: You know someone who he looked back on his career and he recognized some of his down times were when he pushed people away, thinking no, no, I've got to focus in and lock in and get sport right.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: I've got to focus in, lock in, get business right.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: And he pushed his close community away from him and that was probably some of his hardest moments.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: And so I guess for you rugby has this culture, this community that sits with it right, and as a player you kind of have that little circus or little bubble that sits around us.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: As you come further away from that, certainly you know you come away from a player then as a well, I guess initially as a consultant, although playing to an extent do you get a sense.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Was there any time for you a sense of dread or fear, the more you pull away from that bubble of sport or bubble of professional rugby.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: No, not one bit of fear.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: There's the element of uncertainty because we don't know what it's going to look like.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Like I said previously, I and every time the topic from transition was discussed from a former player or from the RPA, it was always doom and gloom.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: So there was that side of it.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Can't be, that shit Like, honestly, it can't be.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: It's probably the uncertainty that gets you, but it's like anything.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: It's the uncertainty on whether I'm making the right strategic decision with a company to go with this supplier or that supplier.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: I don't think there's a fear decision with a company to go with this supplier or that supplier.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: I don't think there's a fear Like.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Interesting enough, I had this conversation with a very, very good friend of mine who she captained England water polo side in the 2012 Olympics and I said to her like it was six months after my retirement.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: I said to her like I'm waiting for something bad to happen and it's not happening, because everybody I've always spoken to has said like it's terrible being retired and I guess in that instance, like it shows I'm very lucky.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: It's not the same for everybody else, but then again, it doesn't make it easy.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: There are still days when you wake up and you think I just love to have some contact or some ability to knock somebody over contact or some ability to knock somebody over, or I just love to compete.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: I went for a run on Sunday for the first time in 12 months, so I've got my son in a stroller and I'm running and there's a lady running past me and I'm like she's not running past me.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: So the competitive edge is still there but I guess, as long as you don't tackle her or run her down with a stroller.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: I think I'm so comfortable with me and what makes me tick that it will never go away.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: So, whether it is rugby or whether it is business like, there's certain elements of me that is me and I'm very comfortable with it, and I know the people in my life that are very close to me.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: There's no surprises on that front.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: They know that as well.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: And so what I think is interesting for you now in today's world, because you know, as we're going through it, I'm saying to myself what would you be like being an employee, like purely working for someone, because it sounds like you've got this natural desire to lead, probably to tell, to instruct, and it it must be.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: It would have been interesting to what extent you contemplate coming in, being an employee, learning from the ground up, taking instruction and not responding back.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: I have never done it.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: In all honesty, I have never been an employee that would just take instruction and not respond.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: So I don't know is the honest answer.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: I can tell you I would struggle with it at the start.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: If it is in a sector that I know nothing of, it'd be much easier for me to be in that position.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: If it was something that I felt I knew a little bit and I had some expertise, I would find it difficult to bite my tongue and keep quiet, but then again, I'm not naive enough to think that it will never happen.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: There may be an occasion where that could happen.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: The one thing I have really valued since retirement is freedom of choice who you work with and what do you do with your time and where do you spend your holidays and how much holiday you take.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: The thought of not having that choice anymore I had an offer on the table to do something similar, but the fear around that was for me.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: It was very difficult to comprehend and to go.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, am I on board with this really?
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Because, like I feel and it might be because my generation or something, but I feel like life is so short, you have to spend your time with things you absolutely love doing Now, whether that is spending time with your kids when they're young, or whether that's diving headfirst into fundraising for a business, or whether it's accountancy I don't know what it may be, but it has to be passion for you, because why on earth else are we doing this?
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Far easier ways to make money and there's far easier ways to go and do things that you truly love than just paying your mortgage.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: And you know you keep yourself busy.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: You've got what I would describe as a portfolio of opportunities and interests.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Got what I would describe as a portfolio of opportunities and interests.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: When you look at that, how intentional was it to have to spend your time across those different interests versus following your curiosity and that desire to learn?
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: I think I underestimated how important it was to me until my first 12 months out of the game when I left Worcester.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: I didn't like rugby.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: I didn't like anything surrounded with rugby, purely from the context we were in.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: So that 12 months was tough, in a sense because I underestimated the value in people around you on a day-to-day basis, because I jumped headfirst into a solo entrepreneur office on my own wake up, whether I worked or didn't work, nobody had a clue what happened.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: So I underestimated the community aspect to it.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: But now I realize it's so much better now that we've got a son and he's 22 months.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: So having the freedom to choose to spend a Thursday with him every week I find so valuable.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: But I would never have had the foresight to project or to forecast that when we had our first son.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: So to me it's like wow, why wouldn't you do it?
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: The one thing I struggled with just outside of rugby was the lack of pace at which things happen.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: You send an email off, you get a reply in four days time, you want to measure outcomes and it takes a quarter, and I was furious when people couldn't respond to emails and I can't get information I need, and I don't know if this has fixed the problem.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: So then that's when I realized all right, what's the fastest moving worlds out there?
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: It's professional sport or it's startup companies?
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Because you have to pivot, navigate challenges.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: It's every day, every week In startup life.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: You can send an email on a Saturday and get a reply on Sunday.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: You can pick up the phone on Sunday morning and somebody would answer.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: So I've made a conscious decision to be involved in startup companies from that point of view and scaling, because the obstacles and the challenges you have to overcome change weekly, which is similar to sport, and also just sticking to what I feel I'm very comfortable in and I've got a huge passion for that like which is people yeah, I love that and it's good as you look back and you can pick up those elements, like you say, choice, but you don't necessarily know the benefits of it.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: You know until you then look back and you think, wow, this is fantastic.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: So when you think of athletes coming through the professional rugby game who are thinking, how can I be best prepared for that life after sport?
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Can I be best prepared for that life?
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: after sport.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Given your experience, what guidance would you give to them?
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: I think the best advice I ever got from a transition point of view when I was younger is the financial discipline side to it, because everybody talks about saving money work with your money, live within your means.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: When you sign a contract that increases, you don't need to go and spend the more money you have, and I think that's valuable advice, but I didn't know how valuable it is.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: But the way I understand it now better is like if I am disciplined throughout my career, I give myself choice and runway space.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: When I retire Physically, just meaning the day my salary finishes as a professional sportsman I have 3, 6, 12, 18 months of runway to go and, explore, try, travel, whatever it may be.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: The second part of advice which I think is very valuable is to have a clear break from when it finishes and then move your start date to whatever next is, whether it's already your purpose, your passion.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Just have time away to reflect, because we sacrifice as sports people, whether your career is five years or 17 years, we sacrifice so much and sport is everything for us.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: You need time to reflect and discuss and share and identify regrets or identify opportunities or just celebrate milestones within a career, that when you start the next journey, that the previous has been dealt with in a good way and on your own time, because it takes time for people.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: And then the last thing I think is which I did without even knowing it is the value to go and explore industries and sectors while you're still playing just helps clarifying that next step.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: It's all it does Now.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: If you haven't had the luxury of exploring when you were young and while you're playing, you can do that if you've had the financial discipline.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: If you haven't had the financial discipline and you've got a mortgage that needs to be paid and nursery fees and and, and you just have to accept that you are going to go down some routes which you're going to hate and change again.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: I think neither of those routes are easy.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: They're all going to have their own challenges.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: They're all going to have things you love about it and things you don't.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: It's just our ability as sports people, which I don't think we underestimate how hugely valuable that is is that we are comfortable with being uncomfortable, Whether it's stress through training or stress on a field.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: We thrive in environments like that and that's what makes us more resilient than normal people.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: So if that is a skill you have, absolutely back at 100 percent, um, and just be comfortable with being uncomfortable in a new work, a new environment, new clothes, a suit, a tie, a laptop, whatever the environment may be dj.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: that's brilliant, I think, when I reflected on those three elements.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: One is definitely experiment, exclude and follow your interests whilst being a player, but then try and get that financial discipline to give you a runway it's, you know, one I call having your Armageddon plan, where you can stop and it's like, right now, let's see how long do you have until you absolutely need to go and do something again and use that runway.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: But then also try and give yourself that break, that mental break, to, I guess, reflect and think about what some of the choices are and, like you say, to keep exploring.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: If you've started earlier, then it's probably a good time to do it.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, look, gj, I've absolutely loved this conversation, really really enjoyed it.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: There's going to be people watching, listening, who are going to want to follow your story.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Get in touch.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Where's the best place to find you?
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: I'm probably most active on email, so anybody who wants to reach out please just send me an email.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: You could reach me at gjvanfelser at bathrugbycom.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: I love spending time with curious people who are interested in anything from business to sports to farming and then, obviously, linkedin, but I'm not as active on LinkedIn as I probably should be.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: We all say that about LinkedIn, but listen, GJ, thank you so much for bringing your perspective onto the show.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Really enjoyed our chat.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: No, thank you, Ryan.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: It's very nice and pleased, like the work you're doing for highlighting transition.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: I think it's invaluable because within my industry of men and professional rugby, we are not great at being vulnerable.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: We're not great at really sharing when it's not going well.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: So the more this topic gets highlighted, the more we get people comfortable talking about it, the better it will be for our sports, because, from being selfish talking about rugby, I think it's the ultimate our sports because, like from our being selfish talking about rugby, I think it's the the ultimate team sport because it's so diverse.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: Our game is in a decline, but in actual fact, there's somebody like me who's bang average, who played for 17 years professional rugby.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: I need to stand on the top of mountains and scream about how amazing rugby is, because it's giving everything I have in life.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: It's given me.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, thank you for your time and thank you for the work you're doing good man, thank you.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the second win podcast.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Brook Design, nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: That's all from me.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Take it easy Until next time.