Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / "Touring and Mental Health: The Music Industry Manual"/Tamsin Embleton [Episode 145]

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"Touring and Mental Health: The Music Industry Manual"/Tamsin Embleton [Episode 145] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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Oh, We're totally booked and I think I'll leave you do you're reading little
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hands, It's time to run and roll roll. We are totally booked.
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Welcome back to Booked on Rock, the podcast for those about to read and
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rock online. At booked on rock dot com, exclusive videos, blogs,
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links to all of the social media sites including Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,
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and TikTok. You can find every back episode of Booked on Rock there,
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along with links to your favorite listening platforms. Tampson Embleton is this episode's guest.
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She is the author and editor of a book called Touring and Mental Health,
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the Music Industry Manual. This book is a must have for anyone who
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works in or around the live music business. It's also a fascinating read for
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those of us who want to know what life is really like on the road.
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It's not all glamorous. The grueling life on the road can take its
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toll. Oftentimes, musicians find themselves without the knowledge to handle the physical and
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psychological stresses that can mount over time. This book offers an in depth insight
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into how to manage all of it. Written by experience, healthcare and performance
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experts, it gives real life advice the latest research and helpful tactics for addressing
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mental health, performance, anxiety, addiction, relationships, physical well being,
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diversity, and more. Adding their personal experiences to the book are musicians including
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Now Rogers and Justin Hawkins, along with prominent touring personnel. Touring in Mental
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Health is designed to be read on the road. Pick it up, pick
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a section, then put it down after, or read it at length.
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When you're done, you want to pass it around the tour bus. Really
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looking forward to talking with TAM's In about this book, how it all came
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about, and how it was all put together. So let's get started.
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TAM's in Embleton. First off, congratulations to you and everybody who made this
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book happ and I think this is one that we'll be talked about in the
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music community for many, many years to come, So congrats, thank you.
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In fact, i'm just reading on the back here. Philip Sellway of
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Radiohead quote, I wish this book had been around when I first started touring.
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It should be the first thing we all pack when we head out on
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the road. Before we get to the book, can you tell us a
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little bit about your background in music and mental health? Yeah, sure,
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so I was primarily a venue and festival booker in the music business, So
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yeah, festivals and venues, and I booked against at a large recording studio.
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Also did a bit of artist management and a bit of tool management as
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well, And it was kind of on the road that I started to really
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piece together what i'd seen backstage and try to By that point, I was
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in therapy, so I had a bit of a language for what I was
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seeing withdrawal and obviously the extreme fatigue and stress responses and pressure to relationships and
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you know, all sorts of different things. So yes, So when I
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left the industry, I realized it was and it kind of had been a
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good fit for a long time, but I realized it was kind of I
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needed something different, and I spoke to my therapist about it, and we
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thought that, you know, training to be a therapist would be a good
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fit for me. I'd always had that kind of confidant role anyway, when
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I was on the road, and certainly when I was working with artists,
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and that was much more interesting to me. I wanted that kind of deep
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connection with people that would create in therapy. So as part of my m
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a dissertation around twenty sixteen, I started researching the psychological impact of touring and
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that came out well. Actually I never released that research in twenty eighteen because
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I got this book idea. I was like, right, well, there's
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nothing out there. There's absolutely nothing by way of guidance. And by that
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point we was starting to see more charities having a greater profile working with musicians
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health, performing arts health. But there was nothing at that point, no
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research about it. What was happening on the road. You people would talk
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about it, sure certainly understood by people in the touring community that what the
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risks are and the lifestyle factors, and you know, everybody knows someone who's
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died by suicide, for example, but there was certainly no support. Means,
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some tools fare better than others, often when they've got more money and
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they've learned the hard way. But do you think that is, though,
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teams? And why why after all these years finally now this book thanks to
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you, I mean why, because it seems like it would be something that
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would be addressed. I think it comes down to money. I think the
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music industry changes when you hit it in the pocket. You know that sounds
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really brutal, but that I think that's kind of true. And you know,
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there's a greater literacy now our mental health, more artists are talking about
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it more openly. So those old euphanisms we had, like a friend of
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mine, Jody Milstein and Ryan Dusik, who's drummer and Marine fives now a
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therapist and they're all part of this group that I've set up called Music Industry
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Therapist Collective, And they both talk a lot about the euphemism exhaustion. You
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know, used to see people in the press, oh so and so it's
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got exhaustion to or exhaustion and they've gone to rehabor, they've gone to hospital
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or something. And you know that is a euphemism for many, many things,
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many many breakdowns and burnouts and relapses that happened on the road. So
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I wanted to put something robust together, and yeah, started this kind of
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four year journey whatever it's been, to write the book and bring everyone on
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board. Can you talk about how it's laid out, because, as you're
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right, it's it's a bit much to read in one setting, So it's
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designed to dip in and out of Yeah, exactly. So we've got six
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sections and so there's a section that really explains what mental health is, what
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mental illnesses, neurodiversity, the link between mind, brain and body, how
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mental health develops. There's a whole section on that, and there's a great
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chapter, one of my favorite chapters in the book, actually mental health and
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the Music Business. I came across this Geordie Shenton. He's fantastic, and
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I set him an impossible task. I said, I want you to gather
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all the research we have and analyze it and tell the story of what is
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happening in the music business. And he didn't. He managed to do that
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in like three thousand words, which I think is remarkable, and analyzed like
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one hundred research studies or something like that. Next section is all about relationships,
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so group dynamics, you know, what are common issues that occur for
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bands when they're having problems. So one of those chapters is written by Stan
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Takin over in la who's a couple specialist. So he's talking about romantic relationships.
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He used to be a drummer for the Wrecking Crew, which I think
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is amazing. Yeah, it's prodigy when he was like eleven. And then
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there's a chapter by Dr lu Cox in New York who's worked with Aerosmith and
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bon Jovie, and he's talking about, Okay, what you know, how
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bands are originally set up and then how those that you know sometimes those things
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don't last. You know, it's a little bit, I guess I'm thinking
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about the way kind of defenses that we develop in childhood. We outgrowers are
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anyway. So that's a sexual kind of anger management and conflict resolutions in there
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as well. Then there's a sectional anxiet I've seen depression and crisis. What
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do you do if someone overdoses on your taur bus or someone has a half
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attack. We kind of want you to know what do you do if somebody's
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very depressed and why might they be depressed. Then there's a section on stress,
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trauma, addiction and eating disorders, So it's bringing the link between traumatic
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stress and how that can be found at the core of people who are struggling
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with eating disorders, sometimes in addiction and things like that. When it talks
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all sorts of things in there. Two more sections, one on bodily health.
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So I've got a medical physician who's a tall specialist, doctor Ryan Castro.
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Sexual health chapter Bicycle Panassar, which talks about things like consent in there
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as well, what to do if you've been assaulted on the road, as
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well as sexual health, vocal health, hearing health, sleep nutrition, and
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then the final section is about self care, preparation, recovery, so breath
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work in the meditation written by Rob de Vancous, festivals over here, a
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camp festival, and to have festival as well. He's got record label,
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peak performance, dealing with the media, and postal recovery because it doesn't stop
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when you leave the tour. That's the other thing that's interesting. Yeah,
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I want to kind of touch on all of those, but the one depression
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seems to be the one that's most misunderstood from those on the outside because it's
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always that what can they be depressed about? How part you know, it's
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got to be a dream gig. You know, when I was a teen,
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I started listening to rock and rollist like so many ethought, man,
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that's like the perfect gig. While it has its definite upsides, of course,
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but there are many things that you have to be caught yourself. What
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is life like for a musician on the road in general, like the ups
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and downs and the usual stressors. Well, look, the ups and downs
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is a good way to put it. But the ups and downs are very
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extreme. But before we get to ups and downs, i'd say, you
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know, let's think about the experience of just leaving everything that keeps you stable
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at home. Usually now, everybody has experience, and that's important to say.
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For some people, being on the road is the stable experience, and
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it you know, the sort of schedule and the predictability of things can keep
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things feeling contained. But for those who do have a stable home life,
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you know, leaving the people and the places and you know, your usual
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yoga class or knowing the local language and where to get food that you know
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comforts your that is familiar to you. All those things are some of the
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smaller building blocks that keep us feeling stable. So you take them away from
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all of that, then you put them in this high pressure, high stress
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situation. And some of it's good stressed, right, We call that use
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stress, meaning that it might not feel stressful, it might feel really really
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good, it might feel exciting or exhilarating, but it's you're still going to
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have a bit of a crash after that. And then you've got some real
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loads, like the loneliness, you know, homesickness, and people have sort
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of conflict on the road with people that they're under this sort of pressure with
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and you can't really have a down day. You can't have a bad day
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on the road. People do have down days, but if you've got loads
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of press to do, or you've got to get out there and give everybody,
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you know, essentially the best night of their life, you know,
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because it's really memorable for the audience, and you're feeling like, actually,
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I don't really want to be stared at by thirty thousand people today. You
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know, you've kind of you can't really, especially not in today's age with
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social media. You can't be gruff and grumpy and withdrawn and things like that.
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So it's you know, it's a great deal of pressure. But the
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stress that people are under impacts the circadian rhythm, their ability to get good
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qualities sleep, as well as things like sleeping on at all bus which is
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can be quite difficult. Some people find it that the motion is quite soothing.
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Others find that the compactness and the motion and the heat when it parks
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up with the air cons off. You know. Kip Winger just talked about
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that on an interview He's like, I'm sixty one years old man. He
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goes, I just can't off of a tour. He said, I spent
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three fourths of my time in a bus. And you know, however,
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many hours on stage was minimal compared to all that. And he goes,
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I can't do it anymore because I don't know how much I can do.
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He prefers the airplane gigs, he said, where you can just go from
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one place to the other. Right, that's grueling. Especially it's a young
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man's game too. In a young woman's game, you get older, it's
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not as enjoyable, not as fun, and you can't really endure it as
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long as maybe when you're in your twenties exactly, you don't have the same
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physical resilience. Maybe the shine comes off a little bit as well. You
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know, the first global tool you do, the first big tool you do,
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you know, it can feel quite exciting. You have new cultures,
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cuisines or that kind of thing. It's a great opportunity. But you know,
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as it continues, you will start to notice, you know, maybe
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it comes out in rushes, or it comes out physically in different ways after
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a couple of weeks. But I certainly couldn't do it. I mean,
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I don't like particularly going to hotel rooms. I've realized in my like older
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age, if they're unfamiliar, or you're near the ice machine or the lift,
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or you know, it's not blackout blinds, or that's the wrong temperature,
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it's a different bed, all those things, you know, they so
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true, so true. When I was in college, I had it just
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I remember the bed in my dorm room. The wall was on the opposite
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side of the bed in my normal home, and in the middle of the
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night, I would bang my head up against the wall because I thought I
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was turning out instead of turning it. Yeah, how much the introvert seemed
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to be common in this business, which would surprise you. But there are
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introverts who really don't prefer being out in public. Yet they have a passion
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for music. They love it. It's what they do, and really they'd
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rather do that than anything else. So they're kind of forced into this situation,
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and that could lead to alcohol drugs just to get up on stage.
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Right. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean I think that performance anxiety can lead
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to people over drinking or using something to kind of quell the nerves. But
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yeah, as you said, there can be You know, some performers get
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a lot from the writing process. You know, that's really where you get
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relief than Catharsis is sort of naming something that is very true and real for
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you, getting it out and creating. We know that the process of creativity
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is therapeutic, right, but it's everything that comes around that. Not everybody's
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a natural performers. Some people wrestle with it for years. Some people are
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they kind of the elevator stress state that it is in their body. They
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can harness that, they can use that as a kind of you to sort
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of charge them up. For other people, it doesn't feel so good.
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It feels like anxiety. And without the right sort of tools, which we're
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hoping to give them in the book, they might turn to something or they
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might find sort of quick fixes that then have other risks attached. And it's
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probably not a simple answer as to what leads a musician down that path.
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I've said it many times. I'm wearing the van Hillen sure here. But
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Eddie Vane Hillen when he was a kid ten eleven years old and he would
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perform with his dad on stage, and one day he said I'm nervous,
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Dad, I'm nervous. I can't do it. And his father gave him
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a beer and that was from that point on was the struggle that he would
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have all the way till the end. But there's the answer is not simple
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right as to what can lead somebody down that path? No, it isn't.
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I mean there are some things that are risk factors that So the person
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who wrote that chapter doctor Susan Rabun. She's over in La. Her parents
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were big band musicians and sadly died prematurely from alcohol abuse, which led her
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into you know, studying this in the eighties. There are particular risk factors
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that you can be aware of, an early warning signs that were trying to
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teach people. But that anecdote you just said about Eddie van Halen, I
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think there's some real significance there of both having that bonding experience with his dad
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on stage that was something that you know, they did together. He appeals
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to his dad for comfort, for reassurance, and his dad endorses drinking.
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So you know, that's that's very loaded, isn't it. Especially at that
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age, You're not going to kind of go no, You're gonna go well
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if dad says it's okay. And we have tour managers in a similar not
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same role, but a parental role sometimes enabling behavior because the show must go
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on, must get because their job is to get people out there, and
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feel okay about it for sure. But that though, you know, there
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is more discussion around enabling behavior now than there has been previously. But that's
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one thing that came up in some of the interviews that I did for the
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book. You know, people reflecting and looking back and thinking, God,
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you know, I've facilitated some stuff over the years because I was so focused
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on doing my job and I didn't want to be fired. You know.
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Nick Koer, so he works for Share at the moment, he's amazing,
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and he talked about artists. You know, he's very clear, and he
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sets out a new relationship with an artist and says what he will and won't
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do. And he says, look, if you're looking for someone to get
16:07
you drugs or something, I really won't do that. And he talks about
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flushing coked on the loo and those other things. But it's it's complex because
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you know that some people set strokes and rock and roll is all part of
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the you know, the reward for what you do, right, Yes,
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it did? You think it's cool? Now? I could tell you from
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my own personal perspective. My older brother. I didn't drink in high school,
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but my older brother had all his friends over and they would drink,
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and I just thought it was the coolest thing, and he loved rock and
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roll, So I just connected at all. And then when I got to
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college, I like, in order to fit in, I had to drink
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in the dorm, and I did, and then I met my first girlfriend
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while I'm drinking, you know, all those things that psychle It took a
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long time for me to realize that I just became like that weekend binge drinker.
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And I took a long time for me to realize, like, no,
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this isn't this isn't right, this isn't the way it's done. And
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then it stops being fun, and then and then it goes it stops being
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fun too. Then there's some dangerous roads you're going down. You're hanging around
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with some people that you shouldn't be hanging around with, and all that stuff.
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And thankfully I realized I didn't have the chemical makeup that I was addicted
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to. It because I did just stop. But I also benefited from friends
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getting married moving on with their lives. So the temptations wasn't like, hey,
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let's go out, man, let's go out every weekend. But yeah,
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that's the sex, drugs and rock and roll. It's supposed to be
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cool, right, Yeah. And you're also talking about it facilitating connection,
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right, That's which you know, many drugs, you know, a social
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right. So I guess if that becomes the way that you feel most confident
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or comfortable connecting with people, then you're gonna not learn the skills of house
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to do that or write music. Right. A lot of them will tell
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you I write my best music when I'm doing drugs or drinking. They at
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least they think is that a fallacy to a point? You know, I
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think there is a point of intoxication where you're not doing anything. I'm not
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making much at all, And certainly, of course, if you're in the
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depths of depression or addiction, then you'd become less and less able to create
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a suppose. I mean, maybe there's some truth to it up to a
18:15
point. But then you also have artists like Paul Weller saying, you know,
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I've since you stopped drinking, and he's been able to move through the
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discomfort that came with having to learn how to create, perform without it.
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He feels like he's got a much broader range of emotional expression. He feels
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things more deeply because he's not you know, subduing things or heightening things.
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In a different way, life's more real for him. I mean, I'm
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paraphrasing some of that are too quickly. But you know, I remember reading
18:47
something. I thought, yeah, he's hit the nail on the head there.
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That The one of the myths that we hear is, oh if I
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if I give this up, will I lose my creator spark now? Because
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your creator spark isn't found in the bottle or you know, the pill or
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whatever. It may enhance certain things, and you know, it helps you
19:03
get to a certain mental state, but there is a there are other ways
19:06
to reach that. It's already in ya, It's already in you. Yeah,
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it's there. Yeah, they're they're artists, Like he's fraili of Kiss.
19:14
It's like more prolific now than when he was in Kiss, when he
19:17
was battling drugs and alcohol, and now he's cranking out album after album he's
19:22
sober. That that's the an Aerosmith you mentioned. Aerosmith was another where when
19:26
when Joe Perry and Steven Tyler were just in the depths of their addiction to
19:30
drugs and alcohol, the music suffered, the shows suffered. Once they get
19:34
clean and sober, you have the late eighties resurgence and everything is crystal clear
19:41
to them. Creatively, you become more reliable as well, right, because
19:45
you can, you can do more stuff, You can kind of be present
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more, you could, your relationships improve, both with yourself and other people.
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And yeah, what about you write about what it takes to maintain both
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your physical and mental health on tour. A roadmap of healthy touring directed an
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artists, touring personnel in the teams working around them, improving individual resilience.
20:06
You say it only takes you so far. It takes a group effort.
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What are some of the things that should be done collectively to benefit everyone while
20:11
on the road. That's a chapter where I was hoping So that is the
20:15
Healthier Touring chapter. I think part of the introduction to that what I'm hoping
20:19
to do there is too because at the moment, the current focus in mental
20:23
health in the music industry is let's make this individual more resilience, which is
20:27
like objectively helpful. We definitely want to do that. But if that individual
20:33
then continues to work in a dysfunctional setting, you know, which touring can
20:37
be, not always, but it can be, then that resilience will only
20:41
take them so far. So this is about saying, let's let's wind it
20:45
right back and we'll look at how the tours set up. So it's things
20:48
like there's some advice on what questions agents, promoters, managers can ask of
20:56
the artist to try and get a sense of if they've toured before, what's
21:00
for them, what do they find difficult? You know, it's basically identifying
21:03
strengths and identifying problem areas, areas where they might either need a bit of
21:07
support or you can anticipate and say, you know what, this particular experience
21:12
is quite difficult for them, or at this point we need to build in
21:15
something so might c Music Instry Therapist collective. We're working with a band at
21:21
the moment, so their manager has been come to therapy and he would like
21:25
to support that his artists who are going on a US store soon, and
21:29
so we're working each individual artist is working with a therapist for a few sessions
21:33
before they go out on the road, then around the halfway mark of that
21:37
particular leg of the tool, and some work at the end as well,
21:41
to think about, Okay, what's coming up for these individuals, how can
21:44
we help them navigate that as a group, you know, improving communication,
21:48
how can we you know, maybe somebody needs to build in a bit of
21:51
physiotherapy at some point, so we're trying to think of different areas or somebody
21:55
needs to so One tip from the Justin Bieber Tools that I always like to
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mention was Haley bib against it family hour at four o'clock every day for everyone
22:03
on the on site. Basically everyone has to down tools and speak to their
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therapist, their loved one and just you know, it's about fostering better connections,
22:12
better working practices, and a more reasonable schedule and rooting as well,
22:17
thinking about the physical impact and stress impacts off the way tools are laid out.
22:22
There's a great story in the book from Taylor Hanson of Hanson He's among
22:26
the musicians who contribute to this book. This is a great story. As
22:30
children, they rocketed to fame in the nineties and the song map I remember
22:36
it, and they wrote that roller culture that comes after that kind of fame,
22:41
and they're still together. And I saw them at a Beach Boys tribute
22:45
recently, and you could just tell they just have that vibe that they're on
22:48
solid ground and they get it. They get what fame is all about,
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and they know how to handle it. There's a quote in the book that
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I wanted to get your thoughts on. Taylor said quote, being able to
22:59
control your own death destiny is a lifesaver for your mental health. I see
23:02
artists all the time who are living with the opposite approach. The problem with
23:07
not going in with both eyes open is that ultimately you're running from responsibility like
23:11
a childhood. In exchange, you're giving up the confidence that comes with taking
23:17
responsibility. In my experience, the more you take that responsibility, the more
23:22
your art is free to exist. So here he's talking about how taking responsibility
23:26
not only leads to a healthier life on the road, but he says it
23:30
benefits his art. Can you talk about how important responsibility is and also how
23:36
easy it can be to avoid responsibility as a musician because you can have people
23:40
that just say yes to everything. Yeah. Absolutely, I love that quote
23:44
too, I think I mean a really interesting person to interview. I guess
23:48
one way I would think of that is about autonomy. You know, we
23:52
know that from decades of research that when your personal autonomy, as in your
23:59
ability to self govern and direct the course of your own life, is low,
24:03
your mental health suffers. That's one of the challenges of being on the
24:07
road. So you've usually got tool managers, sometimes a day manager and other
24:11
staff around who are trying to take as much off your plate as possible so
24:15
that you can feel fresh for your show, your interviews or whatever. They're
24:21
sort of tasks are associated with your job, but usual day to day chores
24:25
are handled by someone else. Usually unless you're you know, DIY just starting
24:27
out, you're you know, tour managing yourself, etc. But what that
24:32
does is it returns you to a kind of adolescent state where you've got this
24:36
sort of conflict between having a great deal of pressure in some areas or responsibility
24:41
in some areas, but a real reduction of responsibility in another reduction of the
24:47
ability to choose. You know, I spoke to one artist who said,
24:49
I don't need people to choose where I drink my coffee. Every day,
24:55
like, you know, she would have her go on her app or you
24:57
know, her day sheets. It would say, you know, great coffee
25:00
in Berlin, you should go here is right next to your hotel. She's
25:03
like, I can fucking google you can find her. And I think we
25:10
kind of in an effort to be indispensable. Tool managers sometimes contribute to this
25:18
reduced autonomy, which you then see coming out in what we might sort of
25:22
you might think of as aggressive behaviors because just like a teenager, sometimes push
25:27
us back because they push it back against the boundaries and the limitations on them
25:32
because they want to have more responsibility. But they're both frustrated sometimes, you
25:36
know, you sometimes see that on the road. You see you know,
25:38
people protesting or or they'll you know, try if if they're sort of trapped
25:45
with a feeling that they can't really do anything about, they won't. They
25:48
might not feel in control of things, so they might start feeling more anxious
25:52
and they might take more substances as well to sort of numb out right.
25:56
Well. One of the most publicized stories of somebody who just nobody said no
26:00
to him was Elvis. Could there have been something done to save him or
26:04
someone in his situation. What I mean by that is because it does come
26:10
down to that person too, they have to make that decision. I don't
26:12
know a huge amount about Elvis. I've watched that film, which I thought
26:17
was great. I wonder sometimes whether and this is you know, maybe veering
26:22
into slightly conspiracy theory sort of areas. But I think it's fair to say
26:26
that sometimes it's been in the industry or the person who's managing the artist,
26:33
it's been in their interests to keep them compliant and to sometimes do feed or
26:38
ignore or enable addictions and dependencies. But because spoke with agent and the banks,
26:45
and she works with some huge people I think red to Chili Peppers and
26:49
Lawrence the Machine, people like that. And she said she was describing the
26:53
change she saw in an artist that she'd worked with, just from the beginning.
26:57
And she said, you know, on tour, they started to be
27:00
separated from the rest of the group. They were encouraged to get first class
27:07
tickets and seats when other people were in business or you know, coach or
27:11
something, and there was some encouragement of a particular behavior, of a sense
27:15
of you're special, you're different, you deserve only the best you could get
27:22
used to that after a while. Some people don't. Some people have a
27:25
remarkable ability to be grounded and they are protected from that. Like the Handsome
27:30
Brothers, I think is a good example. Their parents were quite you know,
27:33
they continued their schooling during all of that. They said, look,
27:37
ride this way for as long as it lasts. It's probably not going to
27:40
last forever. There's another quote in the book where he's talking, Oh maybe
27:42
it's the same one about that sense of specialness and what can happen if you
27:45
let yourself believe that you're exceptional, you know, and how that can get
27:49
in the way. So I think they're probably gone off piece to here a
27:52
little bit. But yes, responsibility for sure. But yeah, Dave Matthews
27:59
said a story about I read it in Rolling Stone once. He said,
28:02
I have people around me that I make sure I tell them if my eagle
28:06
gets out of control, let me know. And then I think he was
28:10
talking about he had the same car that he was driving before he got money,
28:14
and he just kept it because it kept him grounded. And I thought
28:18
that was very interesting. And you see him and he seems like that type
28:22
of guy. Fame didn't get to his head. Yeah. I mean that's
28:26
a great you know, it's a really great example. You know, you
28:29
want people to tell you the truth. Part of what can be so disorientating
28:33
and can make you feel isolated is that, as you said earlier, these
28:36
kind of yes men, these people that just want to keep you happy and
28:40
that will downplay your flaws and we all have them, right, So it's
28:42
kind of realizing that you know there will be times that you mess up or
28:47
that you're difficult to be around, and owning that and also saying I want
28:51
you to tell me the truth. You need people that will tell you the
28:55
truth. That's why people come to therapy. The book Down Right Podcast will
28:59
be back after this. Are you an author or publisher with a rock based
29:04
book to promote. If so, the Book Down Rock Podcast is looking for
29:07
guests. Promote them all, I say send an email to the Booked on
29:11
Rock podcast at gmail dot com. That's the book down Rock Podcast at gmail
29:15
dot com, or you can contact the podcast through the book down Rock website
29:19
booked on rock dot com. I think it's your new book, and be
29:23
sure to keep us in the loop for any upcoming book releases related to rock
29:26
and roll. It took guts. I'm promoting you TAM's and Hamilton is our
29:33
guest. The book is called Touring in Mental Health The Music Industry Manual.
29:36
Chapter seven is titled why successful Bands Fail Again? Going back to my favorite
29:41
band Van Halen, A word often used to describe them is dysfunctional. To
29:47
this day, Wolfgang van Hallen has always asked, are you guys going to
29:51
release anything that your dad may back in the day and the vaults and he's
29:55
and he said, even in the day, ask him, are they going
29:57
to do a tribute to Eddie? What's gonna go? And he said,
30:02
this band has always been so dysfunctional. They still are. But of course
30:04
they weren't the only band to implode over time. So this happens so often.
30:08
Can you talk about the factors that lead to a band who is as
30:12
tight as can be when they first get together, it's all for one,
30:15
one for all, and then eventually everything falls apart. So that's the chapter
30:21
I talks about earlier that Leucox writes, and he talks about it being ego
30:25
essentially, he talks about different sort of ego types, different descriptions for how
30:30
an ego might sort of characteristics of a particular ego type, and he talks
30:36
about how, you know, there are competing interests and conflicts of interest you
30:41
amongst the band members. They have to have a sort of shared goal,
30:45
they have to have a shared vision, shared ethical framework. They have to
30:48
have really good communication skills, and he gives guidance on you know, how
30:52
to do that. But like one common thing that we often hear might be
30:56
often where bands first start out, there is the sense of kind of equality,
31:00
you know, an enthusiasm often when the band is first set up,
31:04
so they might agree particular splits of royalties, et cetera. Bass a big
31:11
one yeah, and then then later down the line, someone's not pulling their
31:17
weight, or someone actually does the line's share of the work over here,
31:21
or they write more or whatever it is, and the dynamic shifts in changes
31:25
and tensions appear and it feels unfair or so I think. I really like
31:32
Lou's chapter, And actually he's got a great book all about this, his
31:34
kind of theories and insights around ego from the bands that he's worked with.
31:40
I think it's just called ego. But yeah, I think it's really helpful
31:42
to recognize what we're bringing into a space in a group. How groups can
31:48
recreate family dynamics, which they often do. You know, there's can be
31:52
sibling rivalries and tensions and people taking particular roles, you know, people being
31:56
like the golden child or the gatego. So we talk about that in a
32:00
later chapter. See it in all groups, well, you see it all
32:04
dysfunctional groups. You know, that's a theory that comes from studying families of
32:07
alcoholics, I think, or maybe addicts more broadly, but that there's often
32:13
these kind of ways that the group's position people, and then if you try
32:17
and move position, the group will unconsciously sort of try and put you back.
32:22
Pressure. You did bring that up, I believe earlier Michael Jackson had
32:27
a ton of pressure to repeat the massive success of that album Thriller. It's
32:30
pressure he put on himself. From what I heard him say in interviews,
32:35
he always wanted to reach that height of success from that point on, never
32:38
was able to because it's impossible. But what's the greatest danger that comes with
32:43
success? And how do you overcome that type of pressure that you can put
32:46
on yourself to repeat something that's really You can't repeat the success of an album
32:51
like Thriller no, I mean, I don't know if anybody has since you
32:54
know, it's extraordinary, right, But I guess there's something about what is
32:59
the feeling you're trying to recreate, you know, what is the or the
33:02
state. So when you have a high like that, it's very difficult to
33:07
replicate, and some people can chase it for years, and they may chase
33:10
it through sex, drugs, and rock and roll. They may chase it
33:14
in different ways. So it's kind of what I would encourage someone to do,
33:17
say, in a therapy session, would be to really open up what
33:22
was that experience like for you? What did it mean, what did it
33:24
feel like? How did it change your perception of yourself at the world.
33:28
Why was it so intoxicate, Why is it so important to go back there?
33:31
What is it like now that it's over or you're plateauing, which is,
33:36
you know, what most people's careers do. If if you're lucky,
33:38
let's say, you know, you might have a high, you might,
33:42
you know, and then but very few people get to maintain at a particular
33:45
level. But you know, we also think about other types of reward,
33:51
other types of perhaps more lasting, more sustainable ways to feel good about yourself.
33:55
Connected to other people or to express you know. So for examples,
34:00
people may feel, I've just got to get that grammy, just got to
34:04
get it. If I get that grammy, I'm going to feel fucking amazing.
34:07
I'm gonna you know, that's going to that's going to restore my sense
34:09
of self. It's going to show people, you know, how important what
34:14
I'm doing is. You know, it will establish me or leave my mark
34:16
on the models something. Quite often, once you get those rewards, if
34:22
they come, you've actually feel a bit deflaces. You know, you might
34:25
even feel that a bit beforehand. It might not lead to all these things
34:30
that you thought to do. Perhaps it does, you know, propel your
34:32
career forward, but it might not shift dramatically how you feel about yourself,
34:37
you know. So that's something that we also try and help people think about.
34:43
You know what, what is deeply rewarding and what is it telling you
34:46
about what may need to be healed or accessed in yourself and your life.
34:52
It doesn't all sound a bit, no, it makes sense. It causes
34:54
the depression because because when you're thinking, well, I thought this is everything
34:58
that I wanted. Am I still unhappy? And then you start to turn
35:01
on yourself, like what's wrong with me? You know, you know,
35:05
you start to get mad at yourself, like, come on, man,
35:07
you got everything you want here? Why? Yeah, yeah, I totally
35:09
see that. What kind of information have you gotten regarding because a lot of
35:14
these classic rock artists who are are still going, you know, they're in
35:16
their seventies now, and we've got Paul McCartney, I think seventy nine or
35:20
eighty. He's the exception where he's still iconic and everybody goes to see him.
35:25
But older artists have to deal with that difficulty of younger generation takes over
35:30
and they're no longer. It's like the Billy Joel line. Every generation puts
35:35
somebody at the top of the charts, but then you're in the in the
35:37
bargain bin, and then you know, where do we go with this now?
35:40
And a lot of these artists too, they put out new music and
35:44
it's off and ignored, and they go out on tour. Everybody just wants
35:46
to hear the hits. What kind of emotional effect can that have on an
35:51
artist as they get older. Well, one thing that stunts out and more
35:54
in what you said was you know, fear of losing relevance, and I
35:59
think that's there for most artists. There can be if at different stages in
36:05
your career, they can come with different anxieties. Not everyone's anxious that.
36:08
I would say a significant proportion of artists can be in you know, whether
36:13
it's social or about different things. But you know, they can be the
36:15
anxiety of gaining success, then their anxiety of maintaining it, and then the
36:19
fear of losing relevance. And what happens when you've been you know, everyone's
36:23
been desperate to hear from you and hangs on your every word, and then
36:28
suddenly you're much less interesting. A phone stop ringing anymore. Actually you've got
36:31
to pursue instead of being pursued, you know, all you're right, people
36:37
are you know, I watched a lot of bands from the eighties. It's
36:40
just my era. I don't know why, but you know, and they're
36:44
playing music that they've been playing for what thirty years now a bit longer than
36:49
that, and they have to find ways to keep it fresh and relevant and
36:52
reconnect with you know, what's interesting about that, so they don't just feel
36:57
like they're kind of you know, live juke box players. But it can
37:00
be difficult to feel like everybody is attached to a piece of work that you've
37:05
moved on from and actually what you're doing now is most relevant to you or
37:08
most important to you. That's something that can be hard to reconcile as well.
37:13
If everyone's just asking you to play Africa you're Toto for example. Yes,
37:19
yeah, right, it's so true, But you brought up anxiety.
37:22
Most artists are anxious people. That's what Neil Barnes of the British group left
37:27
Field stays, why is that so? In how do you overcome it?
37:30
Well, I mean I think why it's so? It can be quite complex
37:34
thing to answer. So they can be lots of reasons why people can feel
37:37
anxious from sort of biological predispositions. Maybe their nervous system is more sensitive to
37:45
change and stress in the environment, or they have genetic inheritance that makes them
37:50
more predisposed. Or attachment relationship, so relationships with primary care give us in
37:55
your early childhood. If there's been insecure attachments there, that can lead to
38:00
a sense of insecurity and anxiety in later life. Job insecurity and financial insecurity
38:05
really common in the industry and that much in their business right right and if
38:08
you're constantly hustling or you're constantly going, you know, what I'm doing is
38:13
important, please listen to me. That's you know that something you know there's
38:17
going to be a psychological impact to that. What you can do well,
38:22
It really depends on you and where your anxiety is located, I think.
38:25
But there we've got a few chapters on anxiety. So there's one that talks
38:30
about general anxiety disorders. That's doctor Martin Sithe I think, who's over in
38:35
Connecticut, and he's also done a Fear of Flying chapter which can be downloaded
38:38
on TOURINGMNIL dot com free. And then there's music performance anxiety, which is
38:45
very specific. It's more common in people that have general anxiety disorders, but
38:49
it's you know, specifically about music performance. And strategy is like acceptance and
38:52
commitment therapies very helpful for that. Learning healthy ways to decompress, reframing anxious
38:59
thoughts and feel you know, learning to sort of build a greater tolerance to
39:02
anxious feelings in the body, to reground, to notice when your thinking's gone
39:07
catastrophic, or you know, to be able to sort of recognize when the
39:13
core of anxiety is you overestimate threats, and you underestimate your ability to cope.
39:17
So we can improve how someone copes and improve how their ability to properly
39:23
assess how threatening a situation is. Self sabotage, that's another one. I
39:28
just interviewed Nina Antonio or a great book on Johnny Thunder from the New York
39:31
Gals, and he died at thirty eight, and he was just drugs and
39:37
alcohol where his problem from the time he really gun on stage, and self
39:44
sabotaging was something he would do the bigger the gig, when it would be
39:47
a gig where there'd be record label guys there there was a line on the
39:51
line. His bandmates said, he always had this cycle. He going he'd
39:55
do more drugs. He would almost like psychologically he just he's setting himself up
40:01
for failure. Like is it that he doesn't feel he's worthy of that type
40:06
of success? Is it a self esteem thing? Is that what self sabotaging
40:09
is? Perhaps? I think again it may vary for people. I think
40:15
sometimes you may unconsciously be trying to control the outcome. If you change the
40:21
outcome intentionally, then you're controlling the outcome. Well, I didn't really try
40:24
because I wasn't very present, or you know, I didn't go to rehearsals
40:30
or sound check or something. Then you're kind of trying to control how risk
40:35
it feels to you that it can be. Let's not underestimate what it's like
40:38
to step out on stage, to be watched and potentially scrutinized, and to
40:45
captivate people. I mean, what a challenge now more than ever with YouTube,
40:51
Are you kidding me? Everybody picks apart every little performance. Oh he
40:54
sounded terrible there. Listen to him. Back in the day, you'd have
40:59
a bad show and nobody would know about it unless the people that were there.
41:01
And even the people that were there were having such a good time they
41:05
didn't even notice. They couldn't tell the guy, you know, he had
41:07
a note that was our or whatever. Oh yeah, that is That is
41:12
social media. It's like every move you make, that's gotta be that's gotta
41:15
be tough. But then you have those who are grounded, and you mentioned
41:20
bon Jovi. John bon Jovi is a great example. He married his high
41:22
school girlfriend and they are still together. Being away all the time while touring
41:27
and also our recording albums can be challenging. On a relationship. How can
41:30
a musician maintain a long, healthy relationship while on tour, improving communication and
41:37
anticipating what the challenges might be like. So I came across a great article
41:43
by a license to his uncle, Chris LuSE, and he describes exit friction
41:49
just before someone goes on a tour that can surface in a romantic relationship and
41:52
entry friction. So people think, oh, you're going to come home and
41:57
this is what you've been longing to do, and you know, if it's
41:59
could be, I to see you and you'll reconnect and it will feel great.
42:01
Quite often that's not as easy as that. You know, you've got
42:06
people in different headspaces who have been you know, different things have been neglected
42:09
for each of them. Maybe maybe they both need a bit of care,
42:14
and sometimes people can miss each other. So it's anticipating the challenges of connecting
42:19
on the road when you're in different headspaces and time zones, and you know
42:22
you're trying to get a bit of privacy, which can be hard to get.
42:24
I know a lot of touring couples that have therapy that helps them helps
42:30
them putt it somewhere and be held by someone else. To helps normalize the
42:35
stresses and strains. And I think the person at home really has to have
42:38
something for themselves in their life. You know, we have the touring person
42:42
has to maybe adjust to what's happening at home rather than expect the world to
42:45
revolve around them. When they get back, you know what other person and
42:49
their family have been if those the family have been continuing life, and you
42:53
have to sort of be slot into that and you know, slowly reconnect us
43:00
physical standpoint, I see guys like Bruce Springsteen or staying or always in great
43:04
shape, and I wonder how hard that must be. Well on the road.
43:07
I do remember this is in the nineties. John Mellencamp was playing a
43:10
show nearby and somebody I knew said they saw him in our local gym,
43:15
and I thought, well, that's pretty cool. So because I always saw
43:17
maybe they had their own physicians, or they got a nice set up on
43:22
the bus or whatever where they can work out, but obviously not always the
43:25
case. I guess, you know, they have people that would find the
43:28
nearest gym or whatever so they can stay in shape. But that seems to
43:32
be a big challenge because also you could just grab junk food very easily.
43:37
On the road, you could do all those things, so I'm sure the
43:40
bigger artists might be a little easier. Yeah, some artists traveled with the
43:45
personal trainer as well as the personal chef, but arri so that you know,
43:49
when you've got a bit of cash, you've got more flexibility there.
43:51
But I think trying to have a routine is very helpful. Likewise, some
43:54
venues or now you think spat space backstage creatively having like ship out rooms or
44:00
having a room or people can stretch and do weights or something like that.
44:04
I know some artists that take fold up bikes on at all bus now Roger's
44:07
Crew to do that sometimes. Actually there's an organization called Fit on Tour who
44:12
specialize in giving advice on exercising in small spaces like hotel rooms. But I
44:19
think one of the things is that you may, you know, you might
44:22
want to think about the culture of your particular touring group. If the touring
44:27
party, each tour has its own has a bit of its own feel to
44:32
it. You know, there's a particular group of people all a particular point
44:37
of time, and you have to be quite disciplined to go against that touring
44:43
culture. You know, there can be peer pressure essentially to drink heavily after
44:46
the show or you're trying to come down. So it's tempting to you from
44:51
the high from the show, so it's tempting to drink very heavily or eat
44:53
a pizza or something that's then going to disrupt your sleep later. So you
44:58
have to be quite disciplined. Actually, I'm going to rest. I've always
45:01
I'm going to get an early night, you know, I'm going to run
45:05
tomorrow or something and figure out. I mean, there's other people on the
45:08
road that if they have a particular class, then they'll look into where the
45:13
class is if they're in like Baltimore or wherever. David Peyton he toured with
45:16
Elton John and he was at Live Aid with him all that stuff, and
45:20
he said when he returned he toured with Elton in the mid eighties when Elton
45:24
was still having substance abuse problems, and then he rejoined them later when Elton
45:30
was clean and sober, and he said after the shows he used to you
45:34
know, he said, he was waiting for the party and Alton just is
45:37
like heading back to his room, see you later. I'm done going back
45:40
to my room. You know, I was like a whole different thing,
45:43
a whole different thing. Alice Cooper had a story where he was a heavy
45:46
drinker and he got himself cleaned up late eighties, and he had this routine,
45:52
a ritual. He loved chocolate, so he'd have a few chocolate bars
45:55
and watched his favorite TV shows, you know, like very unr can roll.
46:00
But you know, you see a guy like Alice Cooper now and Elton
46:02
too, you know they the reason that they're still going is because they made
46:07
that conscious effort. You know, it's up to them to say no more.
46:10
You know, you guys, if you want to go out to the
46:12
bar, you go ahead. But I'm going back to my room. And
46:15
they've found their rituals or their ways of regrounding themselves and comforting themselves in a
46:21
way that's not ultimately harmful to them. Winding down here, and you didn't
46:24
mention this earlier, the difficulty for musicians once they get off stage. They've
46:29
experienced this tremendous high from the crowd. To come down from that must be
46:34
extremely difficult. What does the musician experience mentally and emotionally those minutes after walking
46:40
off stage and how do you come down from that on a nightly basis?
46:45
Like is there a routine, is it meditation, is it just going to
46:49
a quiet room. What is it that you can do well? We know
46:52
that performance involves lots of different hormones, one of which is caught us all
46:57
the stress houlmone. So regardless of how well practiced you are, how big
47:01
the audience is, playing music without an audience reduces quarters are playing music in
47:07
front of an audience increases it. And sometimes it can go as high as
47:12
the courts produce when you skydive. So that's a lot buzzing around in your
47:16
body. Some people get off stage and try and extend that high, try
47:21
and prevent what's called the post show blues, So that is the crash that
47:25
follows. That's a really vulnerable time. It's when you might hear of more
47:30
artists overdosing, for example, drinking really heavily or taking substances really intensely,
47:35
trying to prevent feelings of loneliness. Maybe, so you've gone from intense connection
47:38
to being at some stage alone in your hotel room. Perhaps. So it's
47:43
where you know you're a bit more at risk if you have vulnerabilities in particular
47:47
areas. So having a post show routine, just giving yourself a minute for
47:52
a start, like you know, some basic boundaries around holding back the label,
47:58
people or whoever's there to to say hi and congratulate you for the show.
48:01
Give yourself fifteen minutes if you can, in your dressing room, just
48:06
to regroup and sort of resettle. That's not a good time to talk about
48:10
how well you thought the show went and whether Dave mister beat on the second
48:14
track or whatever, talk about we can talk about that another day. It's
48:16
a vulnerable time, so you want to resettle. You can help support your
48:22
nervous system through as you said, breathwork, meditation, things like that,
48:24
active relaxation, but sort of cooling your body temperatures very effective. So having
48:31
a shower that goes from warm to cool, having an ice pack that you
48:36
use on your forehead or your wrists, things like that can help calm down
48:39
what we would call arousal in the body, that tightened state, and resetting.
48:44
Eating something but not something that's going to be really difficult to digest on
48:47
the tour bus or wherever you're going to be. So having something like a
48:52
I don't know, a chicken salad wrap or something. There's a nutrition chapter
48:55
who discusses what to eat pre and post show, and just having thing that
49:00
is just jules, you know, maybe checking in with someone, maybe you've
49:02
got a buddy on the road who's also sober, if that's you know,
49:06
what's going on for you, and sort of having ways to check in with
49:08
people. And I like the idea of watching something and you know, having
49:13
a bit of a treat, so you want to mark if you want to
49:15
celebrate, Okay, great, we'll have some good alternatives instead of whatever your
49:20
usual devices, so that you could have still got a way to celebrate and
49:24
mark the end of the show. Paul Stanley of Case wrote in his book
49:28
then after the show he had a lot of difficulty with having such adulation from
49:34
the females in the crowd to then being all alone in a diner. But
49:39
that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, quite the contrast. Yeah,
49:43
And when the tour ends, there's that adjustment going from the royal course to
49:45
ride on the road to regular day to day live And this is something we
49:49
often don't even think about. What are the difficulties musicians fees when they come
49:52
off the road, But they might feel displaced. You know, they've got
49:57
used to their bodies, their minds have got used to a particular way of
50:00
doing things, a particular routine, and you can come home feeling deskilled,
50:05
like you don't know how to look after yourself. Oh well, because we've
50:07
been out of practice. You know, fruit doesn't come all chopped up on
50:09
a platter. You've got to you know, there's certain things that you have
50:13
to readjust to so reacclimatize to even you know, it's like kind of coming
50:17
back down from this incredible adventure that having to re acclimatized to ordinary civilian life
50:25
and what that feels like. So you may miss the big highs of performance
50:30
and camaraderie with your mates on the road and things like that. That you
50:34
have different responsibilities at home, there's different things asked of you. You have
50:38
to You may be sick as well. You know, people get post show
50:42
post you mentioned in the book. Yeah, yeah, people get ill after
50:45
at all because because of all that cortisol has affected every system of their body,
50:49
including their immunity. So people may get respiratory issues or post tour flu.
50:55
You know, it's quite common. Some people get skin issues and stuff
50:59
as well, So you need a bit of time to let your body.
51:02
Some people extend the tour for a day or two in a hotel on their
51:07
own, you know, just using the facilities there and just having a bit
51:12
there time to themselves before they re enter, you know, society and home
51:15
life. Great Joe WALSHNG ordinary average guy talks about taking the trash out and
51:22
cleaning up the dog. Yes, just like you know headlining wembleu or yes,
51:29
exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Are there legal aspects now in the business
51:35
these days, because back in the day you'd hear stories about bands, you
51:38
know, if the if a band member it gets injured, breaks his arm
51:43
breakaus risk I just mentioned this. The last episode was Somebody but there was
51:46
an author of a book on the band You're right, a heap and one
51:50
of the band members like he broke his hand or his arm or something,
51:52
and their tour manager was like, we're not going in the emergency room.
51:54
You're just going to go out and play again tomorrow night. You know,
51:57
is that kind of thing? Are there insurance plans and plays nowadays with these
52:01
bands to just to protect the artist from being abused maybe by the business,
52:08
you know who we view them as a commodity, yes and no. So
52:13
you know there is definite certainly insurances on tools, and there are other I
52:17
think the rhadi Clinic actually have just launched this very cheap insurance people can get
52:24
by the day for tools and the States. Actually it's worth looking. I
52:28
think it's called tour Doc road doc anyway. But look, there are there
52:34
are always going to be difficulties with rock docs as we call them, people
52:38
who may have an interest or maybe what's the best most diplomatic way of saying
52:45
this, So Okay, Michael Jackson, as we were talking about earlier,
52:50
you know, his physician was convicted in the end because of what he was
52:53
supplying Michael with that wren against the core principles and ethic of framework is supposed
53:00
to work at. People can get quite starry eyed around people of status and
53:05
power and fame, and it can lead them to subscribing, oversubscribing drugs to
53:13
keep that person happy. You know, some artists are getting drugs from the
53:17
promoters doctor in Minneapolis and then going to la and seeing a hotel doctor there,
53:24
and so there's no one overseeing this poly pharmacy, this multiple medication use
53:30
which is of course high risk. So there's I mean, we talk a
53:35
little bit about some of the ethics and the duty of care there that needs
53:38
to be thought about. There are some cases that are happening and have happened,
53:44
like for example, little people who can't remember the year he died was
53:46
a twenty seventeen, perhaps not long ago, not long ago, and his
53:52
mother took the management. I think, I want to get this right.
53:54
Management and the tour manager I can't remember to court. I think they settled
53:59
out of course to the end. I imagine now that we it's very clear
54:04
what the risks are in touring and in musician careers, we may see more
54:09
cases and I think that's how things will change. Unfortunately, I think that
54:15
is how standards will be set. Currently we don't have, for example,
54:19
healthy standards about what is too and how many shows in a row as too
54:22
intense. You know, I'd suggest, you know, three and the other
54:27
day off and then two for example, but you know, we don't have
54:30
those guidelines yet. So some tours are just going, you know, healthful
54:35
leather, especially after the COVID, trying to recoup lost earnings and momentum without
54:40
with thinking that you know, this is short term. We've just got to
54:44
get through it. But sometimes that's really coming at a human cost. As
54:47
a fan, it's important too because we love our music. Music is so
54:52
important and we want to see our favorite artist healthy. This book, I
54:58
think we'll do a lot for musicians, and like I said, I think
55:01
this book is going to be around for a long time. It's going to
55:05
be like the go to manual from musicians, and not just musicians, but
55:07
it's also for the roadies and all that. There's a huge crew that goes
55:12
out on the road with these artists. So Touring in Mental Health and Music
55:15
Industry Manual. It is out now through Omnibus Press right. Yeah, you
55:20
can find it in Amazon in the States. I think it's a couple of
55:22
other shops and quite remember what they're called. But we're just working on the
55:25
audiobook now as well, which we'll have clips from all the interviews and things
55:30
like that, so that'll be available hopefully under this year early next year.
55:34
Excellent. Yes, Where could people find you online? TAMS and if anybody
55:37
wants to reach out to you, they can find me at TAMS in Embleton
55:42
or Embleton Psychotherapy dot com and Music industry therapist dot com or at we are
55:46
m I TC that the book is touringmanual dot com. Great. Yeah,
55:51
I'll put the links in the show notes page. Thank you so much,
55:53
Tams, and this was great. Thank you, it's been a pleasure.
55:57
Thanks a lot for having me on. That's it. It's in the books.