Latest / The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast / #260: Steve Rainbolt-Wichita State University

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#260: Steve Rainbolt-Wichita State University · The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast

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Track and Field World Juvenile tuned in to our humble servant
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Mike Cunningham for another extraordinary message on Guild
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Athletics connections. All.
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Right, here we go. Welcome back to the Guild
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Athletics Connections podcast. So humble that you would once
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again press play. You know, as we are approaching
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past the 250 mark, I think this is episode 260 here.
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You know all of us here at Gil, we're just super humbled that
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you would be here to listen to these amazing guests.
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And for the amazing guests that keep coming back week after
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week, you know, it's a, it's a hard podcast to to make.
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I asked for two hours of of people's time and that's that's
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hard no matter what it is. And during track season it's
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even harder. So super grateful for all of our
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guests and for all of our listeners.
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Really do appreciate you all being here.
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So let's hop into it today. This is what I've been looking
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forward to for a while. You know, some people are just
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naturally born storytellers and today's guest is exactly that.
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So I'm excited to get into learn his history and and hear some
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stories because I think there's going to be some good ones.
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Help me welcome the head coach from the Wichita State Shockers
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in the great state of Kansas, Mr. Steve Raybould.
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Steve, how are you Sir? Very well.
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Thank you very much. It's great to be with you.
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I'm literally looking forward to this.
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You know, the first question we have to ask that you need to
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explain, I guess is the best way.
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Because I I think I kind of know the answer is your mascot is one
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of the most peculiar question everybody asked.
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What is a shocker? And then you see the mascot,
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which is a little bit of a scary mascot when you actually look at
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what the shocker is made out of. Help us understand what is a
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shocker. Let's let's just take that off
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the table right here. So you might think of a Bale of
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hay. If it's a Bale of hay, then it's
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referred to as a Bale. Wheat is referred to as a shock.
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It's truly a shock of wheat. And that's just a bundle, so to
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speak, of wheat. And back when Wichita State was
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naming their mascot or you know, establishing their athletic
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department, there were lots of farm boys from the state of
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Kansas that that shocked wheat in the summer for, you know,
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summer, a summer job or heck, maybe they were from the farm
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and that was the family farm. And so they named it the Wheat
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Shockers. And back then, I think the Wheat
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Shockers was more common as a name.
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Obviously it evolved and it's just the Shockers and that is a
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little bundle of wheat that you see.
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And people always ask is it a bumblebee or you know what it,
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what is it? And it's wheat and the little.
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It's a little man made out of wheat.
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So anyway we love it. It's it's been like you say
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interesting and it's always a a topic of conversation and and it
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makes me feel at home in the state of Kansas.
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I love Kansas. I'm born and raised Kansan, so
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yeah, that's what it is. Well, I love unique mascots.
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I actually one of my like little geekdoms in my head is I love
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college mascots and knowing what every school and their mascots
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are and things like that. And so the shockers one is
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always cool because it's just it's unique.
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I don't know of another not only not another shocker but any kind
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of like you know, weed based, farm based.
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I mean there's a couple like asparagus type things out there.
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There's a cool one in Arizona that's a oh gosh, what's that
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little fruit or a little vegetable anyway, But there's a
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couple of them out there. But Shockers is definitely it's
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it's a it's a unique one and I love that and I I really do.
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What is the one that is the slugs?
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Yeah, somewhere in California, maybe Riverside or Irvine.
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The Banana Slugs. Yeah.
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Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
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That's an unique one. My favorite one.
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We've done this a couple Times Now.
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We're going to play this game, Bolt.
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I told you, we we don't really have a set agenda.
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We just kind of, you know, we'll we'll go all over the place.
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My favorite trivia question is name the college mascots that
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don't end an S so Shockers ends an S Most of them do, right?
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The Kansas State Wildcats? The the Kansas Jayhawks.
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You know they're in in your neck of the woods, but there's
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several that don't end an S Can you think of any off top of your
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head? No Cornhusker.
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You know sooner. Yeah, all an S It's that's
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interesting. Yeah, my favorite.
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My favorite answer is I'm right here in Champaign, IL.
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The Fighting the Lion Eye. Oh, OK Yeah.
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Probably the most famous one is Notre Dame.
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The Fighting Irish. Right.
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And then you have Syracuse Orangemen.
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I think Harvard is the Crimson. I think things like actually
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near you. Tulsa.
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The Golden Hurricane. OK Yeah.
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Which, you know, that's a weird one as well.
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By the way. First of all, Golden Hurricane.
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It's, you know, no S on it. But why Hurricane in the middle
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of Oklahoma, for crying out loud?
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Yeah, it's it's always unique A lot.
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And that's not hurricanes. It's the Golden Hurricane.
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I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, you know, I could go on.
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Toltz, Tulane, the Green Wave, Alabama roll tie.
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You know, it's all these different ones.
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Anyway, OK. But we're here to talk about
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you, not about trivia questions that are gonna help you in your
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next trivia pursuit game. So Steve, let's talk about your
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journey in this great sport. Somewhere track and field had to
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start for you. You mentioned growing up in
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Kansas. Where does track, and maybe
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other sports play into it when you're younger as well, but
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where does track start for you? So I'm 10 years old and I'm
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living in Prairie Village, KS and feeding into the school
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system that's going to end up at Shawnee Mission East High
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School. And the Shawnee Mission E record
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holder was a guy named Randy Morgan in the high jump event
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and his brother, Mitch Morgan was a classmate of mine.
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I'm I'm in the 5th grade and I go over to Mitch's house and
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they're in the driveway is a high jump pit.
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It's summertime and the high school coach had allowed Randy
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to bring the high jump pit home for the summer to practice.
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And you know in the driveway you don't remember back then.
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It's the old straddle roll, so you could set the, you could set
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the high jump pit off to the side of the driveway and you're
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coming at it differently than we do now with the Fosbury flop.
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So with the curved approach and all that.
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So we begin playing immediately. I mean there's all sorts of
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things that you can do as a 10 year old that playing on the
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high jump pit but I took pretty quickly to wanting to learn to
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high jump jumping over the crossbar and I went home and
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told my dad about it. So this is a little bit story.
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I'll try to make it quick but in my science class we were
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studying aerobics, the old Kenneth Cooper book aerobics and
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he started the Kenneth Cooper Center in Dallas, TX and he was
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about health and Wellness and we were studying that.
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So part of that was a 12 minute run.
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So I would my dad and I would go walk up to the high school track
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at Shawnee Mission East and jog or run for 12 minutes and test
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how far we could go. And laying there next to the
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sand pit, which was the long jump pit, was an old cross bar.
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And my dad had done some straddle rolling as a child in
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New Mexico or as a high school kid in New Mexico.
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And he showed me how to do the old straddle roll.
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So remember age 10? This is 1967 because I'm born in
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57 and I took to it so quickly, meaning with with regard to
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enjoying it and wanting to do it right quick.
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I would ride my bicycle up to the high school by myself and
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I'd grab 2 hurdles and set them at either end of the sand pit
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and set that cross bar up there and jump and roll into the sand
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pit. Do a do a straddle roll in and
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roll out of it in the sand pit and by myself and I could do
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that for hours. One day my dad shows up at home
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with the car full of of you, you know, foam rubber cubes, cubes
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of foam rubber and some folded up burlap.
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He created a pillow, a big pillowcase of and then stuffed
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the foam rubber in there and we had a little high jump pit and
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of course for a 10 year old, that was enough.
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It wasn't too long before I started bottoming that thing out
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and we had to create a bigger high jump pit, but I had the
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ability to high jump in my backyard.
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My dad and I built in my middle class in 7th grade.
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I built high jump standards. So I mean, I when I say I took
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to it, I was a skinny, kind of weak, not very fast guy, but
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high jumping was something that I could do.
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And I just fell in love with it very quickly and got involved in
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the summer track program there in Johnson County, Kansas.
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You know, the Johnson County Parks and Recreation summer age
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group program. And I tried all the events, I
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tried shot putting and I tried, you know, long jumping and
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hurdling and and 400 meter running and you name it.
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But high jump was always the focus of my, you know, long term
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love affair with track and field.
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Give us a little bit of a history lesson here, Steve, on
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the high jump because you know, it's interesting when you talked
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about your friend having the high jump pit in the driveway.
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You know, I'm a I've been sitting here in 2024, so I'm
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only thinking of the fobberry flat that, you know, the the way
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we high jumped out And then you mentioned the roll and straddle
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and others and I was like, oh, yeah, that's right.
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We, you know, the high jump's actually kind of a new event the
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way we do it today. Walk us through, can you give us
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a little bit of history? So you were what was everybody
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rolling at that point in in 67 to call it 77, you know, through
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your high, say, say in high school for me, but through high
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school, was everybody doing that or was there Fosbury 'cause you
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you mentioned an actual mat, which that actually kind of came
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in through the Fosbury, I believe.
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So Fosbury himself. In the state of Oregon Fosbury
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flopped into sawdust if you can imagine which blows your mind to
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think about. But he started out being a
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scissor jumper and in an attempt to jump higher just started kind
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of laying out back, laying back a little bit and so that he
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could elevate his hips a little bit and scissor.
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But then he just naturally turned his back to the bar and
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and and I think he jumped. I don't know, 6-2 or three in
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high school. Anyway he, he was burst onto
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prominence in 1968 with the with the Mexico City Olympic Games
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jumped 7 foot four and won the gold medal.
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And so this is right after I get going and at that point you
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start seeing some Fosbury flopping but there was still
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mostly straddle rolling, a lot of straddle rolling.
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So then you know you mentioned 67 to 77.
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Yes, I graduate high school in 1975.
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I end up going to KUI Go on a on a recruiting visit to.
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Stay, stay in high school for me, because what I'm wondering
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with you is so in high school did you do a mix of the two
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styles or did you go straight to Fosbury that that's why I wonder
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where your history on this. No, I I straddle rolled as a 10
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year old, as an 11 year old, as a 12 year old and then as a 13
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year old. I began thinking I I feel like
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I'm not keeping up. I I did real well as a 12 year
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old. Actually I did well as a 13 year
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old and then I I guess it was when I was 14 that I was
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persuaded to try the flop and I tried it and it and it went OK
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that summer. You know, it's an interesting
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thing that this is making me think of.
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I can tell you when I jumped as a 10 year old and when I 11 year
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old and as a 12 year old and so forth right on up.
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And I will ask some athletes right now.
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So remind me what your mark was, you know, three weeks ago at the
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and they can't tell me and I'm going tell me what your mark was
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3 weeks ago at the track meet at Nebraska or at the track meet.
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Hey, obviously, would you like to tell you what I did?
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As a 10 year old. Track and field championships.
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As a 10 year old, I can tell you when I jumped, I jumped 4 foot
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two in any Dragon Field championships.
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I won the 910 Division. I I can't believe you're not
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able to tell me what you did three weeks.
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So anyway that's a funny part of it but at age 14 is when I
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transitioned to the flop and from that point forward I was
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flopping and it didn't go great. That summer I jumped 5-6 as a 13
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year old and then I only jumped 5/8 and 1/2 with the flop as a
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14 year old and I was concerned that maybe I was, I don't know,
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stalling out or something. I was not going to get any
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better, but as a 15 year old I jumped 6 foot three and in my
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10th grade year in high school track and and that was good.
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I mean, that wasn't great, but it was good and I I was pleased
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and I was off and running, you know what I mean?
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Because I'm trying to think of like because I'm I'm trying to
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put myself in your coach's shoes I I can't think I can think of
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maybe one example you can probably think of more I I can
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think of the glide to rotational in the shot put.
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But I'm trying to think where in the world for track do we have
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to take one style and teach it the same event teach it in a
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radically different style. So rolling to Fosbury radically
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different. You know in that shot example I
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gave you know glide to rotational might be over saying
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when I say radically different but it it's different I can't
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think of another like maybe a hitch to a you know in the long
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jump maybe. The pole vault from steel pole
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vaulting to fiberglass pole. Oh yes, for sure, right.
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Would be that was just a different world.
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I mean it was a different, it changed the the IT changed the
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event radically. Now I do think there might have
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been some athletes that made that transition comfortably, but
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it was tough. I mean, it was that was a
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radical change. Yeah, that that's a good one
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too. Yeah, the the the pole vault.
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So how did you and Coach were there ever struggles like hey
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coach I feel like I'm stalling out.
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I want to go back to the role and Coach is like, Nope, this is
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the future. We're going to stick with the
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Fosbury. How how was that relationship
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with high school coach? Oh, it was so by the time I got
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to high school in 10th grade. So remember, I'm old enough that
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it was junior high 7th, 8th and 9th grade, and then high school
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10th, 11th and 12th. So I wasn't in high school till
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10th grade and when I by the time I got there, I was
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flopping. I was a osprey flopper.
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But I had a coach in age group track, but you know, age group
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track, there's a hundred kids out there and it's basically
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going from station to station. And I didn't feel like that I
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was being dictated to by a coach.
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I was kind of in charge of my own destiny, so to speak.
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And so I I never it, it never was much of that kind of a
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thing. Heck, my dad was helping me at
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home as much as anything and he was not knowledgeable, so he was
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real comfortable to work. He was just helping me, you know
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what I mean? Just basically playing around
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and having fun. So anyway, that was a
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comfortable transition for me and once I found out that I
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could do it, you know, I jumped 63 as a 15 year old, as a 10th
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grader. Then off I went and I did and I
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was doing good. I jumped 6/6 as an 11th grader
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and then 610 as a as a senior in high school as a 17 year old.
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You know to jump 610, jump 6/6 and above is you know you got to
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be athletic. Were you doing other events as
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well, or any other sports or just strictly high jumping
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track? I was hurdling.
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So I I've been a good little basketball player as a child,
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but I say child like 5th grader, 6th grader, 7th grade and
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skinniness. And I guess you would say
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weakness became more than I. You know, you get banged around
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the in there playing basketball and if you're not a fairly stout
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young guy, you can get pushed around pretty easy.
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And I just wasn't as athletic, you know, I consider myself an
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athletic guy. I competed the 1980 United
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States Olympic Trials in the decathlon event.
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So I myself an athletic guy but at that age I was underdeveloped
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and I was weak and skinny and I and so I ended up really just
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taking to high jumping and I ran cross country in the fall.
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But that was just for fun. I mean I did it for fun.
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I say for fun. Obviously I figured I was
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getting in shape for track. Now I know better about and then
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that's the way to get in shape for high jumping.
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But I love being out there with guys and and I ran cross
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country, you know, so. Yeah.
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How How does that three mile trick race help with 10 steps to
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the bar, right. Yeah, it's like a little, little
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off there. All right.
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So senior year, you're jumping 610.
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You're thinking about college. Talk to us about where did you
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go And tell us where, if at all, is coaching in your mind at all,
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or are you thinking about becoming a doctor or an
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accountant? Tell us about that transition
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from high school. So.
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First of all, that's that. We were talking about the
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Straddle Roll. My host athlete at KU was a guy
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named Randy Smith, who was the final NCAA champion with the
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Straddle Roll event. Or I mean the Straddle Roll
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technique. In 1974.
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He jumped 7 foot two at Brigham Young in 1974, beat white stones
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in that competition and won the NCAA Championship with the
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Straddle Roll. So Andy was something of an idol
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of mine, truly a a guy that I looked up to immensely.
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Coach Pepin coached him. So then Coach Pepin was the
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assistant coach at Kansas back then and he recruited me.
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You know, I've thought about this podcast.
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I've got unending stories. I could never give you a chance
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to even ask another question. I think I could literally take
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over right now and the the the end of the podcast.
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The floor is yours, my friend. But the bottom line is that I
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end up at KU and I've got two Usus Track and Field Coaches
19:04
Association, Hall of Farmers. As on the coaching staff, Bob
19:08
Timmons is the head coach and Gary Pepin is the assistant
19:12
coach in charge of the jumps. And it it it was epic.
19:17
It was truly unbelievable. And I want to tell you
19:20
something. I don't know why, how it is that
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God built me, but I knew it. I knew it then.
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I knew, man, this is awesome. This is spectacular.
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These are great coaches. You know, Timmy had coached Jim
19:36
Ryan, and so I just knew. I mean, we held him in high
19:42
regard. We had the utmost respect for
19:46
Coach Timmons and then Pap had had NCA champions.
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You know, the same year that that Randy Smith won the NCAA
19:54
championship in the high jump event.
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Danny C and Theo Hamilton went first and second in the long
20:00
jump event at the NCAA meet. And I could go on and on and on
20:05
about the accomplishments that young Gary Pepin had there as an
20:11
assistant coach at Kansas and. So, you know, I could, I could,
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we could spend the rest of the time just talking about my
20:17
experience at Kansas. It was remarkable.
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And I absolutely loved it. Every moment of it I I had.
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I have. I'm a I'm the baby of my family.
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My sisters are 10 and 11 years older than me.
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And consistently, especially my oldest sister, Carolyn would
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tell me, you know, hey, listen, buddy, you're in the 1st grade.
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This is unbelievably wonderful time of life.
20:42
You need to enjoy elementary school because you're having a
20:45
great time. She's in college at that point.
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Then I go to junior high and she's like, you know that stuff
20:52
about elementary school? Forget about that, man.
20:55
Junior high is the greatest. But you're in 9th grade.
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You rule the school, buddy. You're you're the the top of the
21:01
class there in the junior high. Then my senior year in high
21:04
school, a man, forget about all that stuff I told you before,
21:08
senior year in high school, this is where it's at.
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And then of course, college. She was like, listen, I've been
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lying to you all these years. You you're getting ready to go
21:18
to college, man. It's the greatest time of your
21:21
life. And of course, by this time
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she's, you know, 20 something, late 20s, and she's out there
21:27
banging around being a school teacher and working hard and all
21:30
that. And she's going enjoy every
21:33
minute of college. I want to tell you something, I
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woke up every single morning and enjoyed every single minute of
21:39
college. And a big part of that was that
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I was on the track team at the University of Kansas and and I
21:45
was giving thanks for that on the daily because it meant the
21:48
world to me. It just absolutely meant the
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world to me. And Timmy and Coach Pepin were a
21:53
huge part of that, Just a huge part of that.
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I I love reinforcement. So earlier this year or last
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year, we had Clifford Velto on the show and he talked very much
22:05
about Coach Timmons, Pep, that whole just how how Coach Timmons
22:09
ran his staff and his graduate assistants and what it meant for
22:13
him and you know, basically made Cliff what he is today and
22:15
things like that. So it's really cool to see this
22:17
really special time at Kansas with Coach Timmons and you know,
22:22
amazing athletes and coaches that they came through that
22:24
program. So it's cool to kind of hear
22:25
that reinforcement from the athlete side for you as well.
22:29
Absolutely. Well.
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And and you asked earlier, did I think about coaching?
22:33
Yeah. And answer is yes.
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And I have no idea how or why, but literally, as a junior high
22:40
kid, I began thinking about coaching would be a pretty cool
22:45
deal. And I I literally ran into one
22:48
of my old high school teammates at the KU Relays.
22:52
Oh, I don't know, 15 years ago. And he saw me and we we shook
22:57
hands and chatted and he said both.
23:00
I can't imagine you've been talking about wanting to be a
23:03
coach since we were you know, high school kids and it's
23:09
unbelievable you've gotten to do what you wanted to do.
23:11
This is awesome. And.
23:13
And my dad, my dad was a hard working guy.
23:16
He didn't have a college degree. He went off to World War 2
23:18
before he had a chance to get a college degree.
23:22
He flew 175 combat missions in the South Pacific and as an Air
23:27
Force captain and comes back and he starts working man and starts
23:33
a family and raises us and he had a good life.
23:37
But when I got into coaching he was like, Steve, you are gonna
23:42
you love what you do. That's revolutionary.
23:45
That's revolutionary that you love what you do.
23:48
Because he didn't hate what he did.
23:51
But it was work, man. He was work.
23:53
He was a hard working guy and to see me able to coach track.
23:59
Are you kidding me? He he was like, you're robbing a
24:02
bank, man. You're How can you possibly
24:06
manage this to make a living doing something that you love so
24:10
much? So, so I knew every step of the
24:12
way that that that I wanted to be a coach and then once I got
24:16
into coaching, it's really, really been a a wonderful career
24:18
path. You know, I truly believe that
24:22
everybody on earth has put on here to do one thing really
24:26
excellently. Unfortunately, the vast majority
24:29
of US, 95, maybe 99%, never actually find that we we become
24:33
Air Force captains. And you know, maybe Dad was
24:36
going to be the world's greatest artist painter in the in the
24:38
world and just never had the opportunity to explore that.
24:40
Right. So I love hearing, you know,
24:42
this young Steve Rainbow going, yeah, coaching, I I think that's
24:45
it. And then seeing it come out to
24:47
fruition, you know, there's a lot of ways in the life that you
24:50
could have gone on to have to do other things for, for a job, for
24:52
work. So it's awesome to see, you
24:54
know, this, this mix of passion, skill and desire and luck to to
24:59
find coaching in this profession.
25:01
That's really cool. So very.
25:04
If you had that as as a young person, so really young
25:07
elementary school, did you, were you different as a high school
25:13
athlete? And what I mean by that is did
25:15
you, you know, you think about your teammates you had, did you
25:18
pay attention to coach in a little different way like well
25:20
why is he doing this type of workout?
25:22
Why is he asking me to do this versus, you know, most of us, as
25:25
you know, 1418 year old kids. Yes, Sir.
25:26
Yes, ma'am. And we just go do the workout
25:28
and we're thinking about our history class and you know,
25:31
girls or boys, you know, were you different or were you just.
25:35
OK, I'll just listen to Coach and I'll figure out coaching one
25:37
day. No, I was definitely, I'm
25:42
confident that I was definitely different.
25:44
I I was into it at a deep level and you know it was a different
25:52
time in terms of there's no Internet, OK, there's I I have
25:56
no Internet. I have no real way to to do what
26:02
one could do now with with the but there was track and field
26:07
news. There were journals.
26:10
There were libraries with books. Aren't I calling out the name
26:15
correctly? Peyton.
26:16
Peyton Jordan. I I one of the first books I got
26:19
as a young kid at the library was a track and field book by
26:24
Peyton Jordan. Wasn't he the great coach at
26:27
like Stanford or? Stanford.
26:29
But he was at Stanford and I I devoured that thing.
26:33
I'm eleven years old and I suppose.
26:37
You know Fantastic Four or Spider Man or something, And
26:40
you're reading Peyton Jordan's. Book.
26:44
I mean, I can remember things from there that now I disagree
26:47
with, you know what I mean? But but that I read in that book
26:51
and were early influences on me about how to do some of these
26:57
events. Shawnee Mission East had a good
27:02
high, a bunch of high jumpers and I was one of the first.
27:05
You know, Randy Morgan was a good high jumper of multiple
27:07
time state champion, the guy that I mentioned earlier that
27:10
had the high jump hit. But after him I broke his school
27:13
record and and then after me there were other high jumpers.
27:18
Well, that was the result of Chuck Sulzan, our coach, and he
27:25
didn't. He was not a high jump coach.
27:26
He and I learned together and he's done that for years that he
27:30
and I he he had this young guy, Steve Rainbolt, who was really
27:34
into it and he just felt like he better, you know, he he better
27:39
bone up on on the high jump and figure it out and help me.
27:44
And he did. He helped me immensely and he
27:47
would meet me on a Saturday for a session.
27:50
It was awesome. He he was a great coach and he
27:54
helped me immensely. And then he had a bunch of other
27:56
coaches, I mean athletes, that ended up achieving at a high
28:00
level in the high jump event. I could see him thinking like,
28:02
oh man, I better learn something 'cause this guy, this kid is not
28:05
going to let it go. So I better learn something.
28:08
I wearing him out, that's for sure.
28:11
But, but I yeah, I so I was into it that way very, very much for
28:16
sure. So you pick Kansas, you're a
28:18
Jayhawk. You go there to high jump.
28:20
What did you? And you knew you wanted to be a
28:21
coach, So what did you major in? And you mentioned something I
28:25
knew and I love to explore, 'cause it involves a common
28:28
friend of ours, my former boss, my former mentor here at GAIL,
28:31
Fred Dixon. You mentioned you move on to a
28:33
decathlon. So what did you major in at KU?
28:35
And how did other events start popping in to to the to the
28:40
Rainbow High jump world? So I go there as a high jumper.
28:45
Oh my gosh. It's a interesting story.
28:48
I go, I I I was successful. I jumped 7 feet as a freshman
28:53
and then I jumped 7/2 as a sophomore and at my sophomore
28:58
year. I'm 19 years old, so I was high
28:59
jumping well, it was. It was going well.
29:02
I won the Big 8 championship my sophomore year and and was was
29:08
going well. But I go to the First of all,
29:12
Jenner wins the Olympic gold medal in 1976 and sets the world
29:16
record. That was a big deal obviously,
29:19
and and I was very much aware of it and keenly interested in it.
29:24
But I was not thinking about the decathlon at that point.
29:28
So this is a quick story. Hopefully I can make it quick
29:31
again. I go to the NCAA Championships
29:33
at the University of Illinois my sophomore year, Champaign, IL
29:39
for the NCAA in the old stadium, not outside the stadium, in the
29:43
old stadium. And you know, you go to the NCA
29:49
championships, you show up there as a team for a week.
29:52
I mean, you're there for the whole week.
29:53
And I think the decathlon was maybe on Tuesday, Wednesday or
29:59
Wednesday, Thursday, something like that.
30:01
But the day after we get there, I go out to the track for a
30:04
workout and the decathlon is going on well.
30:07
Two things. You go through track and field
30:10
and and Bill Toomey runs 45.4 in the 400 meters and long jumps
30:16
out over 26 feet and you think and then Rafer Johnson, you know
30:22
throws the shot put 60 feet or some such thing and all those
30:26
guys were world class at something.
30:29
All those guys had world class events.
30:32
I think that Toomey's 400 would have gotten 4th place in the
30:35
Olympic Games in the Open 400. Guess what was different?
30:40
Jenner. Jenner was different.
30:43
He didn't have a single event that was great.
30:48
He had 10. Really good.
30:50
Good events, yeah. And we all found out that he was
30:57
unbelievably better than we thought because of probably the
31:01
shot foot, discus and javelin and 1500.
31:05
But 68 and the high jump looked pretty manageable. 23 six or
31:12
eight or whatever it was in the long jump looked pretty
31:15
manageable. 47 nine looked pretty good in the 400, but
31:20
normally the guy was a 49 second runner.
31:24
I could go on that. The 14 mid looked pretty
31:28
manageable in the high hurdles and you started going huh A a
31:34
legion of American guys got into the decathlon because Jenner's
31:40
Marx looked mad and and so this is 1977 that I'm at Illinois.
31:49
I go out and I'm watching the decathlon and I'm seeing guys
31:53
jump at 12 feet in the pole vault.
31:56
Well I pole vaulted in in middle school in an age group track
32:01
like I told you earlier and I thought, well I can do that and
32:05
I'm watching guys throw 38 feet in the shot put and I'm going I
32:10
shot putted when I was an age group tracker.
32:11
I could do that and I literally am starting to it's the wheels
32:16
are turning in my head and then I I it's time for me to go for a
32:22
high jump practice and I'm walking down the way toward the
32:26
high jump for my practice session, you know two days
32:30
before the competition. And I'm pretty sure that I'm
32:33
talking about Ron Livers. Old timers will remember a guy
32:36
named Ron Livers who was by the way, I think about 5 foot 10 or
32:41
5 foot 11, I don't know, but not tall.
32:45
And I'm, I'm, I'm 50 meters away and I'm watching him and he's
32:50
walking toward the crossbar and then he gets within about 3
32:55
steps of it and he goes boom, boom, boom and bounces over the
33:00
crossbar. And it was fairly unremarkable
33:02
looking. But I thought I wonder how high
33:05
that bar is and I keep walking and I get down there and when I
33:10
get down there I check and it was 6 foot nine and I thought,
33:15
you know, I'm not sure I can do that.
33:17
I don't, I don't know that I can do that.
33:19
That's a high bar to make a little basically a little
33:23
three-step pop up and bounce over it like a boss.
33:27
You know, it was remarkable. And in that same meet was the
33:32
coming out party for Franklin Jacobs who truly was something
33:37
like 5 foot seven or five foot eight and jumped 7 foot seven.
33:43
And and I'm watching this guy and I'm going, you know, I don't
33:47
think I can do that. I I these guys are talented at a
33:52
level that is, that I'm not familiar with and somehow the
33:58
wheels had gotten turning about the decathlon.
34:01
One thing leads to another, another part of the story that I
34:05
find very interesting, so I'll share it with you. 2 weeks later
34:11
I go to the US Championships and the high jump event at UCLA and
34:16
the wheels had begun turning about the decathlon.
34:18
I had begun thinking about this and I get there and Jenner is a
34:23
commentator. He's, he's a commentator for the
34:26
event. And I think I'd like to talk to
34:30
him. And so I go and get in the
34:32
autograph line and and I get up there and I go, you know, I'm
34:37
not here for an autograph. I'm here to talk to you about
34:41
the decathlon. I know we only have a minute,
34:42
'cause there's a line here, but congratulations on winning the
34:47
gold medal and setting the world record, you know.
34:50
But I'd like to ask you how you got into it.
34:52
And I was wondering if you have your training, if you have your
34:56
training catalog. And he said absolutely.
35:00
And he was very nice, great guy. And I chat with him and I go,
35:06
well, could I get your workouts from you?
35:08
I'd love to see how you trained. And he said no problem, I'll be
35:11
glad to send them to you. I go, well, son of a gun, let me
35:15
get your address and he goes, don't worry about it.
35:18
Send it to Bruce Jenner, Malibu, CA.
35:20
It'll get to me. That's a whole different level
35:25
right there. So I get a self addressed stamp
35:30
10 below but I send it to Bruce Jenner, Malibu, CA and.
35:35
No way. Of weeks.
35:37
Here comes a packet back with his training, his, his, his
35:41
handwritten training in it. It's remarkable and I used a lot
35:46
of stuff in there. I also met Russ Hodge at that at
35:51
that meet. Got to be pretty old probably to
35:57
to remember Russ Hodge, but this was a a stunning world class
36:02
specimen of a human. This was a remarkable athlete of
36:06
the highest order and I chatted with him and he he invited me
36:11
over to his APT. I went over there and we talked
36:13
and he, I mean we talked about the decathlon and I started
36:17
getting into the decathlon. So the next part of the story
36:20
you mentioned Fred is truly interesting to me that I because
36:26
of today's world with these handheld devices that I'm
36:28
holding in my hand right this second and you know how we're
36:32
all so connected. I read a track and field news
36:35
article about Fred Dixon because in 1977, Fred Dixon's ranked
36:39
number one in the world in the decathlon and he beat the
36:41
Russians and he had the second highest score in history behind
36:44
Bruce Jenner of Americans, second highest American score in
36:49
history. And I.
36:51
And there's a picture of him there in the track and field
36:54
news interview. And he's a tall and slender guy
36:57
like I am and and he's a Christian guy like I am.
37:02
And it's he speaks of his faith in this article.
37:07
And I'm looking at him and I'm thinking, you know, tall slender
37:11
guy just kind of caught my attention.
37:15
And I thought, I'm back at KU by this time for my junior year and
37:19
I think I want to talk to this guy.
37:22
And so I call information in Los Angeles, CA.
37:27
And you know, there's a lot of Fred Dixons, sure.
37:32
And back then they would only give you 4 at a time.
37:35
So I'm writing down numbers and then I don't reach him.
37:40
I I call four people. I don't reach him.
37:42
I call back and I figure out how to get him to give me the next
37:46
four. And son of a gun.
37:48
At some point, fairly quickly, I reach Fred Dixon on the
37:52
telephone. The the world class decathlon
37:55
athletes and we forge a lifelong friendship and that was by me
38:00
calling information in Los Angeles, CA and finding his
38:04
phone number and calling him up. But that first of all, you know
38:11
I've known you and Fred and your history, I did not know that.
38:14
That's amazing. You know you you think about to
38:17
your point about how connected we are today.
38:19
And so you think the opposite. The antithesis of that is like,
38:21
we were not connect, you know, we didn't have Internet, cell
38:23
phones, etcetera. Yet you were able to track down
38:27
Fred Dixon in LA, By the way, not, you know, not Wichita.
38:30
KS maybe there's only one there. What I'm struck by really the
38:34
most about that, though, Bolt, is the persistence.
38:37
So when you called in and they were like, yeah, dude, we've got
38:40
100 Fred Dixons in LA. Most people are gonna be like,
38:44
all right, this is needle in the haystack.
38:46
I'll stop. I'll figure out something else.
38:48
You persisted 4 at a time calling.
38:51
Oh, oh, you're not the the cat. OK.
38:52
Thank you. Well, sorry to bother you.
38:53
Click. Dial, dial, dial.
38:55
By the way, you're paying for long distance calls here.
38:57
We, you know, we we forget about this in today's 2024 world where
39:00
we you know, nothing. There is no charge for long
39:02
distance. No roaming.
39:03
No, no, we he was paying like, you know, probably back then.
39:06
A buck a minute or something for every dial.
39:08
But what? What I'm struck by there is
39:10
that. Persistence.
39:11
Where does that come from? That that's a that's not always
39:14
an innate trait. Sometimes it is innate, but we
39:16
have to have it modeled for us to actually to do it ourselves.
39:20
Where does mom, dad, church, school, friends?
39:24
Where does persist that? That is really the definition of
39:27
persistence right there, you know.
39:30
I appreciate you saying that when when I say I appreciate you
39:34
saying that it's a it's flattering to me because I have
39:37
thought that many times and and of course I don't know you
39:43
understand what I'm saying you don't sit around telling people
39:45
how persistent you are But but I have thought about that many
39:48
times when I've been coaching track and I've maybe had
39:52
athletes that that did not have much stick to itiveness or did
39:56
not have much persistence that that would indicate that they
40:01
are going to find a way and but I that's how I felt about it.
40:06
But I I truly go along. And I think, but I didn't decide
40:09
to be that way. I just was.
40:11
I just was that way. It just has how God built me.
40:15
And I can't answer exactly how it is.
40:18
But I wanted to reach Fred Dixon.
40:21
I could tell from reading the article that he would be a good
40:25
guy. I, you know, I just could tell I
40:27
want to meet this guy. And so I was determined to
40:30
figure out a way to connect with him.
40:32
That's awesome. And.
40:34
You know, I've I've thought about this.
40:36
Because I know our friendship with Fred and and the connection
40:40
that you and I have with Fred and all of that.
40:45
I have a couple stories about Fred that just blow my mind and
40:47
we're and we're, I don't know, influential in my life.
40:51
You know, the the story about Fred at the 1984 Olympic Trials
40:55
is truly remarkable. Are you aware of the story I'm
41:00
talking about? You know he didn't.
41:02
Talk much about 84. You know I knew of 76 and the
41:06
76th Olympics and we always all obviously all know.
41:09
I should say obviously most of us probably know about 1980 and
41:12
the boycott and those kind of things. 84 was kind of a
41:14
comeback year. He actually went out.
41:16
My my memory is went out of the the the sport but came back in
41:20
for 84 and I don't think it went well.
41:22
Tell tell me your side there. OK, so.
41:25
So try to make it quick. He's on the Olympic team with
41:28
Jenner in 1976. He hits a hurdle and stumbles
41:31
badly in the in the high hurdle event and doesn't do as well as
41:36
had anticipated. I mean, he was a gold medal
41:39
contender. He was.
41:40
That was one of the contenders, I'll tell you, just to add to
41:43
that story. So when I first got to Gil and
41:45
met Fred and you immediately heard, you know, he was on the
41:47
76th and 80 teams and was like, oh, OK, obviously he was a stud,
41:50
things like that. And then one day, and I'm so
41:52
surprised, you'll be surprised that he's the one who actually
41:54
sent this to me. He's I get, you know, because he
41:57
lived out in Oregon at the time when I was here in Champaign.
42:00
And through, you know, we used to use AOL messenger back then.
42:04
Now we have teams and all that kind of stuff.
42:06
But he, he messages me. He just sends me a YouTube link
42:09
and he's like, hey, I thought you might find this interest.
42:11
I'm a couple years in the Gill now so we're you know he knows
42:15
my love and passion for what we're doing here and sport and
42:17
everything. And it's the second day of I
42:20
think the Pan Am Games and so it goes through you know the second
42:25
you know the hurdles and all that kind of stuff.
42:26
It's him and and Jenner. You know they're they go one and
42:28
two. I think Jenner wins it or
42:29
whatnot. But what struck me was at the
42:31
end the the the the interviewer he's got Jenner and and Fred
42:37
next to him and he says so I think it was 75 so he goes so
42:42
boys you two are going to be you're the hands down favorite
42:46
for the gold medal you know how's this going to play out and
42:48
and I never I knew Fred was good but I never knew he was in the
42:52
conversation of Jenner and gold medal and you know so it really
42:56
was like Oh my God wait a minute.
42:57
This guy Fred was athletically And then you know I start as we
43:01
travel together and tell stories I learn about the the faith and
43:04
and not even being a not even being an athlete really in the
43:07
traditional sense and everything.
43:09
So it just struck me, you know, where Fred not not not only, I
43:13
don't want to say where Fred was in the pantheon of decathlon,
43:15
because the history is history where he is in the pantheon of
43:18
decathlon. So he's, he's a huge part of it.
43:21
Huge. Huge.
43:21
Yeah. So sorry.
43:22
Go go. Ahead, so well, so he's on the
43:24
team. With Jenner in 76, then in 80,
43:27
he makes the Olympic team. And you know, by that time he
43:29
had gotten into a program that is that.
43:32
That was back then an Olympic assistance, you know, employment
43:36
assistance deal. I think it was with Bristol Myer
43:40
or something like that. That's right.
43:41
Yep. And they would let him leave at
43:43
noon. He could have basically what,
43:45
full time pay for part time work.
43:47
He'd come in and he'd and then he'd go and train in the
43:50
afternoon and and I was there at the 80 Olympic trials with, you
43:53
know, I got to compete in the 80 Olympic trials with Fred.
43:56
And anyway he makes the team at the United States boycotts and
44:01
he retires and he's done. He's got a family.
44:03
He's 30 years old at that point. Back then, that was real old for
44:07
decathlon guy, for heck, for a track athlete.
44:09
And so he. Goes.
44:13
I mean, he goes to. Work.
44:14
I think he continued working for Bristol Meyer and he just went
44:17
became a normal full time employee and and raising a
44:21
family and but the interesting thing about Fred was that he
44:25
would unlike most people that go jogging or go and lift weights
44:30
at the gym he would run two hundreds for his for his you
44:34
know fitness activity his health and Wellness plan was to run
44:38
track and field workouts and and truly he was not thinking I
44:42
don't believe at all but not thinking about getting back into
44:45
competing. I think you're right.
44:46
Here comes. 1984. And he's looking at the United
44:50
States list of decathlon men and he simply thinks, I think I can
44:54
make the team again. I'm not sure.
44:56
But what? I couldn't do it again because
44:59
the the things were not unbelievably high level.
45:04
There were no unbelievably high level guys.
45:06
There were a bunch of good guys, but not believably high level.
45:09
And so he goes to Bristol Meyer, could I go back to training
45:13
again for a year? And he does.
45:16
And he goes to the Olympic Trials in 1980.
45:22
And he no heights in the pole. Vault.
45:25
First of all, he know marks in the discus.
45:27
He, he, and that was an unbelievable story.
45:30
I mean to bring tears to my eyes to tell the story.
45:32
He's leading the decathlon after day one, has a fabulous hurdle
45:36
race and on the 2nd event of the second day, the discus event, he
45:42
fouls his first two throws and man he goes for it on his third
45:45
attempt and throws the discus further than he'd ever thrown in
45:47
his life and can't stay in and and so he's got 3 fouls and
45:54
basically decathlon over but he goes ahead and pull vaults and I
45:59
think he might have no height of the vault if I'm not mistaken,
46:02
but it doesn't matter. The decathlon was over and then
46:06
he goes and throws the javelin and at that point that year
46:10
there were so many decathlon guys it looks like it's like
46:13
8:00 in the evening or seven. Is this when he?
46:16
Is this when he? Leaves, He leaves.
46:18
He leaves the state. Who?
46:20
Who's my guy at Liberty? Just retired a few years ago.
46:25
Yes, I'm trying. I'm trying to told me the story
46:29
because he. Coached the kid.
46:31
Yeah. OK.
46:31
Keep going. All right.
46:32
I do. I do know this.
46:33
This is unbelievable. This is character unbelievable.
46:36
Story And so Fred it it's going to be 4 hours till he's going to
46:40
run the 1500. Plus he doesn't like the 1500.
46:43
That's his least favorite event that there is.
46:46
And he thinks, you know, I'm done here.
46:49
It's over. I am not going to make the
46:50
Olympic team. I'm not.
46:52
My decathlon is over and he lived, you know, an hour away in
46:56
there in the Los Angeles area. So he and his wife get in the
46:59
car and head home. His children are at home and
47:01
he's feeling broken, beat up, frustrated that he that he, you
47:06
know, no marks the discus. And he drives home and literally
47:11
an hour later pulls onto his St. and is driving down the street
47:15
almost home and looks at his wife and says I don't think I
47:19
can tell my kids that I didn't finish my last decathlon and
47:24
turns around and drives the hour back to the stadium and runs the
47:28
1500 and it it that I love that stuff man, are you kidding me?
47:35
That's what it's all about. That's what it's all about.
47:38
It's easy to say. Don't live a life with regrets.
47:42
Don't do things that you'll regret later.
47:44
And then there is action. And that's what Fred took there.
47:47
It was like, oh, man, if I do this 1020, thirty years, I'm
47:51
going to have to tell my kids. Yeah, I quit.
47:53
Yeah, yeah, I quit. But but, you know, and then give
47:55
every excuse in the world. Oh, but it didn't matter.
47:57
It's already out. Yeah.
47:58
Yeah. No, no, no, no.
47:59
Here's the story he gets to tell now.
48:00
Hey, you know what? I'm going to finish no matter
48:03
what. I'm turning back around and I
48:06
and I did it. Wow.
48:07
I that. Meant the world to me and I want
48:10
to say that I just it was stunning to me and it so that
48:13
guy has been a a a man that I've looked up to since I got into
48:18
the decathlon and I was a college track athlete when I met
48:22
him. I've had, I've gone to his house
48:23
for Thanksgiving before. He and I have been very good
48:26
friends and I've really loved my lifelong friendship with Fred
48:29
Dixon. Love it.
48:30
So anyway, that's a story that I yeah, I was glad you mentioned
48:33
Fred because I I wanted to tell that story even before this
48:38
podcast. I thought of that story because
48:40
of our friendship with Fred that we share.
48:43
And so anyhow, that that I'm glad I got to share that I love
48:47
it so you. So the the decathlon becomes
48:51
like a a, a, a, a thing in the back of your head from the 76
48:54
Olympics and then the 77 NCAA S, which I love, that was right
48:57
here at University of Illinois. Was that the same?
49:00
Because I think U of I held nationals a couple years.
49:02
Was that the same year Don Page did the 8:15?
49:06
Yeah, yeah. I tell you know, this is going
49:08
to be a podcast of stories now, but one of my top three
49:11
experiences in track and field, I wasn't there for that.
49:14
I was like 1 years old, so I wasn't there for that.
49:16
But Don Page came to Champaign. I think he was working on the
49:21
University of Illinois outdoor facilities a few years ago right
49:23
before COVID and and I've gotten, you know, so blessed to
49:27
be able to know Don and and have a friendship with him.
49:29
We go to a a restaurant to have dinner that night.
49:33
So we're in Champaign and I've always heard the story of the
49:36
815 double, but I've never heard it from him.
49:39
So I get the guy who did it to start telling me the story and
49:42
it's it was kind of striking. It was a beautiful night.
49:44
You know, we're sitting outside having dinner and having a drink
49:46
and I got the guy who did it telling me the story and then he
49:49
drops the bomb because I did not know this.
49:51
He goes, yeah, so it was right here in Champaign.
49:53
It was, it was at the Memorial Stadium when the track was
49:55
around the football stadium. I had no clue that it actually
49:58
happened in right here in Champaign.
50:00
So then it really hit me like, holy cow, I'm at the place where
50:03
it happened with the guy who did it telling me this.
50:06
It was really, it's phenomenal. You know, he talks about how you
50:10
know the story of Gags and how Gags coached him and mentally as
50:12
well as physically, it was just phenomenal.
50:14
So I love the history right here in Champaign and forget that we
50:17
we held nationals for for a couple of years there.
50:19
OK. So this decathlons in the back,
50:21
this little bug is growing you. You get it?
50:25
Did you, did you start doing it at KU or is this a post KU
50:28
thing? And how did Coach Timmons and
50:31
and the rest of the staff, Coach Pepin, how did they take that
50:33
was it? I mean I had to assume that it
50:35
was. Well, I don't know you're giving
50:36
a face now. I was going to say I have to
50:37
assume that it was supportive because it ended up being very
50:39
successful. What what was that like?
50:41
Hey Coach, I know I'm doing well in the high jump, but I want to
50:43
just throw it all to the wind and let's do nine more events,
50:47
so. It was not well received those
50:50
guys, their credit. I am so thankful they they hung
50:55
in there with me and worked with me.
50:57
I mean now I'm a you know 30 year head coach at the NCAA
51:01
Division one level and guy comes and tells you he wants to quit
51:05
doing the event that he's been. I I say quit.
51:07
I mean, I was still planning on jumping well, but on the big
51:11
eight and jumped 7 foot two in 1977 as a as a sophomore at 172
51:17
lbs. Now I'm going to get a little
51:20
bit stronger and bigger and more powerful and try to do the
51:23
decathlon and I ended up at 192 lbs and I never jumped quite the
51:27
same. I still jumped good, but I never
51:31
jumped quite the same. So I got second in the Big Eight
51:34
my freshman year, indoors and outdoors.
51:38
Then I got first indoors as a sophomore and 3rd in the high
51:41
jump you're talking about. Event.
51:44
And third, outdoors. Now you got to remember there
51:46
was no decathlon in conference championship competition back
51:48
then. So not only so.
51:51
So I'm not, I'm giving up jumping as well as I for an
51:57
event that is only at the NCAA meet.
52:00
It's not a conference meet and those guys care desperately
52:02
about the conference meet, so I can't believe that they were as
52:07
gracious and wonderful as they were and they pushed back.
52:10
Don't misunderstand. But I really wanted to do it.
52:14
I really wanted to do it and it affected my scholarship.
52:17
I I was on a smaller scholarship after that because I basically
52:21
was abandoning after that. I got 4 three times in a row in
52:24
the high jump event and that was the only event that I was good
52:27
enough to compete in in the Big Eight Conference, so.
52:31
Anyway, that's. An an answer to that question
52:33
that's interesting. Yeah.
52:35
But. Then I went out.
52:37
And I think theology hold on there, I I.
52:40
Wanna that made me. Think of something 'cause.
52:43
You know, I'm I'm always I'm, I'm very I'm not just very coach
52:46
focused. I'm 100% coach focused.
52:48
Even to the Dutchman, I don't think of athletes all that much.
52:51
I think of the coaches so that the coaches can affect the
52:53
athletes and you. Know one of the things that.
52:56
I've learned in this podcast has been the catalyst to help me
52:59
learn this. You know, I was lucky to have
53:02
Brooks Johnson and George Williams separately on the
53:04
podcast. And you know Brooks when I had
53:07
Brooks on early in the the the podcast, you know four years ago
53:10
now he brought up George Williams's saying if you if
53:14
you're not in the huddle you don't know the play.
53:16
It really affected me because I really work and strive very hard
53:19
not to judge others for, for for everything.
53:21
A guy cuts me off. I I try not to.
53:23
What did you cut me off for? It's like oh man that guy may
53:26
have just gotten the worst news. I I don't know.
53:27
I I don't know. So it really helped me.
53:29
You know had like words for it. And then I had George Williams
53:31
on the show two years ago I think from Saint Augustine's and
53:35
got to talk about you know where he came up with that phrase and
53:38
why and things like that. So what you just talked about
53:41
there, both that made me think of that because first of all, I.
53:45
Was thinking in the. The shoes of the coach.
53:47
OK, I have this guaranteed first, second place because it's
53:50
not you're not doing this in your freshman year.
53:52
You're doing this after your junior year.
53:54
So I I got this guaranteed with with rainbolt high jump.
53:57
I'm going to get 1086. I'm going to get in that range
54:00
of points. That's awesome and conference is
54:02
huge and he's going to nationals now.
54:05
You know he's doing those things now in his last year to two
54:08
years here. He wants to switch to the
54:09
Kathlon. You know, so.
54:12
I'm giving up. I'm definitely taking something
54:15
that I'm call guaranteed. We know in any event, especially
54:17
the high jump, there's no guarantees but I'm giving up
54:19
this really high probability of getting a lot of points in this
54:22
one event and and I was thinking to maybe get some points points
54:26
in decathlon, but to your point there wasn't even a decathlon.
54:29
So now the coach is like even more like why there's no
54:31
motivation here for me. I have investment money and time
54:35
spent into this kid for high jump and I I have no reason to
54:38
move here. Unbelievably to me, the coaches
54:41
do this, but then what? What?
54:43
What? Really.
54:44
So here I'm getting at with the If you're not in the huddle, you
54:45
don't know the play. I wonder how many athletes,
54:49
coaches, maybe friends, family, etcetera, start seeing your
54:53
senior year. You're getting 4th and it's
54:55
like, oh, it looks like he probably had some senioritis.
54:58
Oh, he's not taking it as serious.
55:01
And in reality, it's like, oh, you're actually setting up
55:04
something pretty special. I don't know that you would have
55:06
or could have. I, I don't know, went to the
55:08
Olympic trials in the high jump. But you eventually you you made
55:10
2 Olympic trials in the decathlon.
55:12
That's. I don't care if you made it or
55:13
not. That is unbelievable talent.
55:16
Every kid who makes it to Olympic trials, boy, you are a
55:19
freak of nature. You are unbelievable.
55:21
So it just made me think of that if you're not in the huddle.
55:23
So a lot of people from the outside had no idea you were
55:26
training for the decathlon and start seeing, you know, air
55:29
quotes here, subpar, high jumping, subpar for you and
55:33
judged. And it really that just makes me
55:36
think for guys and gals that are listening, coaches, athletes
55:38
that are listening. When you see an athlete doing
55:41
not as good as you you think they should be doing By the way
55:44
you don't know what's going on here.
55:47
It's a positive like sometimes it's you know family members
55:49
pass away or you know health issues etcetera.
55:52
This is a positive. He was training for you know
55:54
nine other events here the decathlon.
55:56
I just really, I just wanted to point that out.
55:57
That just really stuck with me when you you talked about where
56:00
you started going in the high jump but what was ultimately
56:02
being built and people from the outside had no clue what was
56:06
going on. I.
56:08
It it's exactly the way that it went what you just said you know
56:11
I I weighed more I weighed 192 you know I I I jumped 6/8 and
56:18
3/4 in one of those conference championships.
56:20
Now it was good enough for 4th that day but that was below my
56:24
standard man even even though I was focused on the decathlon
56:28
that was demoralizing to to not have a good conference
56:32
championship. I care deeply about doing well
56:35
in the big eight conference championship.
56:38
I wanted to do well, So what you're saying is exactly right.
56:42
But those guys hung with me and at some point they were able to
56:45
see that good things were happening.
56:47
I scored, you know, on the old table 77119 at the Kansas Relays
56:53
my senior year and then which turned into you know 7600 even
56:59
on the new tables and got to go to the Olympic trials and and
57:03
the decathlon. Obviously I knew I wanted to
57:07
coach, but that was not anything in my thinking when I took it
57:11
up. But Oh my gosh, what a
57:13
wonderful, you know, lesson. It was just a wealth of lessons.
57:19
It was unending lessons that I learned for my coaching when
57:24
I've got an assistant coach and it's the throws coach now I know
57:27
what he's going through. I know about the throws and I
57:30
know about the hurdles and I know about the sprints and I
57:34
know about the jumps. You know what I mean?
57:36
I've experienced all that stuff, and if I had only had the
57:39
background of the high jump, it would have been fine.
57:43
I I think I'd OK, coach, but you understand what I'm saying?
57:46
Oh yeah, it I I agree. That cause what I what I was
57:49
hoping you weren't gonna say is because you had the actual
57:51
experience of doing them. That's why I know the events,
57:54
'cause I don't believe that's true, 'cause it and it's been
57:55
proven. There's plenty of coaches out
57:57
there that never did their events that are unbelievable.
57:59
But you're right, it made it easier because you had the
58:02
personal experience. But I think a guy like you would
58:04
have take away that account. You, you know, this story ends,
58:07
starts and ends with the high jump.
58:09
I think today you're still talking about, oh, I love the
58:10
throws and really work hard to make sure I know what's going on
58:13
over there because of your passion for the sport as well.
58:16
Yeah. So you're right.
58:16
I think it it makes it easier having the experience, but it's
58:20
definitely not the roadblock to coaching.
58:22
Oh no, it was but but. I I value all of my experiences
58:28
as a head coach. I value that I had those
58:30
experiences and I have a sense for what those young people are
58:33
going through. You know, I I have been so
58:39
fortunate. I mentioned Timmy and and PAP
58:45
and then after college I want to go and do I want to try to go
58:51
and and compete at a high level and I go out to Santa Barbara
58:55
and got to train with Sam Adams and that was that.
58:58
That was to this day. And no uncertain.
59:01
Terms all three of those guys, Coach Timmons, Coach Pap, Coach
59:05
Pepin. And then of course now I'm
59:07
talking about Sam Adams. The time I spent with him
59:12
influences what I do on a daily basis out here at track
59:16
practice. I that influences what I do
59:19
every day. I think of the things he said.
59:23
I think of the of the ways that he demonstrated.
59:26
I think of the the, you know, the the like.
59:32
One of the things I took from Sam is I was injured and he
59:35
goes, well, it might be a blessing in disguise.
59:37
Maybe that'll be a blessing in disguise.
59:39
In other words, I was a hard working athlete.
59:43
An injury was going to force me to back off.
59:47
It was going to force me to freshen up and to let my body
59:51
heal up after a hard bout of training while my injury was
59:55
healing up. And so he made the cut and it
59:58
was the first time I'd ever thought of that.
1:00:00
Oh gosh, maybe. Maybe this time off, or this
1:00:05
time where I'm limited, will be a blessing in disguise.
1:00:09
And I talked to athletes about that all the time, all the time
1:00:13
that the influence that Sam had on me was immense.
1:00:16
And the guys that I trained with out there, there were five of us
1:00:21
that had been in the Olympic Trials in 1980, and then a whole
1:00:26
bunch of college guys that Sam had on his UCSB team.
1:00:30
And so it was a cool deal. It gave me a sense of a
1:00:34
decathlon camp. And then Jane Frederick was
1:00:36
there and I got to be real good friends with Jane Frederick.
1:00:40
And again, a lot of younger folks might not know who Jane
1:00:44
is, but she was the Jackie Joyner Kersey before.
1:00:50
Jackie Joyner Kersey. I mean, she was EU s s best ever
1:00:56
multi event woman until Jackie. You know, that's a tough one to
1:01:02
be. Right before.
1:01:03
Because you know, most people say it starts and ends with with
1:01:06
JJK for sure. Yeah, that's a good point.
1:01:07
He was. He was really good.
1:01:09
So where is because you're. You're out of college now, so
1:01:12
where is coaching? Are you full time athlete, part
1:01:15
time working? Are you coaching at all?
1:01:17
Where? Where's coaching at?
1:01:18
I got an injury out. There in Santa Barbara, I got a
1:01:21
sciatic nerve aggravation that that effectively ended my
1:01:24
career. Or I would have been glad to be
1:01:26
a track bum for a long time. I would have been glad to to
1:01:30
ride that wave as long as I could ride it.
1:01:33
But but the injury stopped me and I'm really struggling with
1:01:38
it. And Coach Pepin got.
1:01:42
He he was the head women's coach.
1:01:43
He was with us at Kansas my whole five years, and then right
1:01:49
at the end of my five years, he goes and becomes the head
1:01:51
women's coach at Nebraska. And then in 1983, they combined
1:01:58
the programs. Frank Savine retired from
1:02:02
Nebraska and they combined the programs and make Coach Pepin
1:02:05
the director of both men and women.
1:02:08
And he calls me up and hires me to be his assistant.
1:02:11
And what a wonderful time I had there at Nebraska.
1:02:14
What, what? What's that like?
1:02:16
You you know, I, I've said I and I still believe this, that for
1:02:20
graduate assistants, I think there should be a rule that you
1:02:23
cannot be a graduate assistant at your where you did your
1:02:26
undergrad. In I I.
1:02:27
Just think, you know, I, I hate to say it's impossible, but it's
1:02:31
impossible to go from hanging out with your your buddies on
1:02:33
Friday and then your coach so and so on Monday.
1:02:36
This seems similar, esque. And what I mean by that is how
1:02:40
do you how did you go from, you know, because I know Gary Pepin.
1:02:44
What? What an amazing guy.
1:02:45
What an amazing coach. I don't want to say strong
1:02:49
personality necessarily, but you know he has his style.
1:02:52
You were coached by him. How do you transition?
1:02:55
And there's there's separation there.
1:02:57
There's years separation, which obviously helps.
1:02:59
I I think obviously helps. How do you go from being his
1:03:01
athlete to now being his assistant coach?
1:03:05
Like how do you, how do you not defer of like oh, anything he
1:03:07
says is, you know, he's still that coach.
1:03:08
So there's a little bit of it but you know you go from
1:03:10
listening, you know him barking orders of the workout to hey,
1:03:13
you have a group to go coach. I've hired you to coach.
1:03:16
Go coach. I tell you what you're. 100%
1:03:21
correct that that was there were It was difficult, but I didn't
1:03:26
think of it as difficult at the time, but as difficult looking
1:03:29
back because he's a he's a BearCat man.
1:03:34
That guy's a tough Rascal. I can tell you he he was
1:03:39
something else to work with, but I had the benefit of being very
1:03:43
close to him so he could get frustrated with me.
1:03:47
I could get frustrated with him, I could be ruminating and it
1:03:53
eaten me alive. And I knew all I needed to do
1:03:57
was go over to his house and spend an evening with him
1:04:00
because that's what I used to do as an athlete and clear the air
1:04:05
and sometimes it didn't even have anything to do with
1:04:08
actively clearing the air about whatever we've been upset about
1:04:11
it was just spending the evening together and when we did we
1:04:15
always cleared the air and felt good.
1:04:18
It was. He and I are like really close
1:04:21
friends and and we were when I was an athlete on the team at
1:04:25
Kansas. I mean he helped me so much.
1:04:28
He was really wonderful. But it was difficult the way
1:04:33
you're talking it was difficult to go and and coach for him but
1:04:37
you know a big part of that was because of him.
1:04:40
He's tough guy man. He is a a taskmaster and and and
1:04:45
expects excellence in the pursuit of track and field
1:04:49
achievement and so now was that a great training ground?
1:04:54
Yep it was a unbelievable training ground.
1:04:56
He's a he was a recruiting wizard.
1:04:59
He he just worked his tail off at recruiting and it certainly,
1:05:05
you know influenced me in my coaching career to to really
1:05:09
value hard work in the recruiting in order to build a
1:05:13
program. And I mean I I learned so much
1:05:16
from coach Pepin. So and here's the other part of
1:05:19
that Lincoln NE is a great place, man.
1:05:22
It's a wonderful place to live. The Big Red Machine, especially
1:05:26
back then, was a really special situation.
1:05:30
That athletic department is a special athletic department and
1:05:34
so there were so many major positives, you know that, that
1:05:41
it was only a. Positive in my.
1:05:44
Memory. It was wonderful.
1:05:46
So this is your first full time coaching?
1:05:49
Job What? What?
1:05:51
You know. It's one thing to want to be a
1:05:53
coach. It's one if since 5th grade.
1:05:55
It's one thing to you. Prepare yourself through
1:05:57
education, through talking with your coaches, through paying
1:06:00
attention to your own training, things like that.
1:06:02
Now you've actually got to direct other young people.
1:06:06
How did that transition go for you?
1:06:09
It went well. I.
1:06:12
Mean when I say it went. Well, I loved it every step of
1:06:15
the way. However, I will say that that
1:06:17
first year I got to work with Angie Thacker, who ended up
1:06:23
fourth in the Olympic Games in the long jump event.
1:06:25
And she was NCAA indoor champion and a girl named Heather Smith,
1:06:30
who was third in the NCAA as a true freshman in the high jump
1:06:35
and a guy named Darren Burton who was a 76 high jumper.
1:06:38
I mean that first year I got to work with some.
1:06:40
Great. As I say, Wait a minute.
1:06:42
How? Do you handle that?
1:06:43
You're still a young person and this is your first coaching job.
1:06:47
Some of us coach forever and don't have that caliber.
1:06:50
How did you handle? That's some stress and pressure,
1:06:52
right? Like, don't screw these kids up.
1:06:54
Well, our. First, I say our first year, My
1:06:57
first year we won the NCAA indoor at Syracuse in in women's
1:07:03
track. The girls, Merlin Naughty and
1:07:05
Janet Burke and and Angela Thacker went one 2-3 in the
1:07:10
well. I guess back then it was the 55
1:07:11
meter dash, yes. I didn't know that was this,
1:07:13
yeah. And and so.
1:07:15
That was my first year on the staff and and so it was a very
1:07:18
heady time. I mean it was some significant
1:07:22
track and field obviously and a really, really special time.
1:07:27
But you know, I don't know, Mike, I was at Kansas and we had
1:07:32
great athletes. That part of it didn't
1:07:36
overwhelmed me. Yeah, that's what you're saying.
1:07:38
Yeah, it. Didn't overwhelm me too.
1:07:40
Much. Yeah.
1:07:40
I tell you that. I can remember sitting there and
1:07:44
shaking hands with Angie after she wins that NCAA long jump and
1:07:49
giving her a fist pump and really excited.
1:07:51
And then sitting back in my chair and thinking, well, I'd
1:07:54
rather be competing. I But remember I had been
1:07:58
competing one year previous. Right.
1:07:59
Right, right previous. I was still dreaming.
1:08:02
Of being an Olympic decathlon athlete and and that that was
1:08:08
hard. So that part of the transition
1:08:09
was hard. That, that that's a good point.
1:08:12
About your background at KU and then going on to Olympic trial,
1:08:16
so you're around other, you know high level athletes and not
1:08:20
being intimidated. Some of that intimidation I
1:08:23
think comes from what what's the term I want to say here?
1:08:28
Like lack lack of self-confidence because you know
1:08:31
you you've coached long enough now and you've coached great
1:08:33
jump. You've coached great athletes in
1:08:34
a lot of different events, but you know the difference.
1:08:37
Using women's long jump as an example, the difference between
1:08:40
coaching a 2122 foot women long jumper is not all that different
1:08:45
that there's going to be a lot of don't, don't, don't hate,
1:08:48
e-mail me. You're everybody who's
1:08:49
listening. You can tweet me but don't hate
1:08:51
e-mail me here. There's not a lot of difference
1:08:52
between a 22 footer and an 18 footer, even a 17 footer.
1:08:55
There are differences, but it's not like you do some kind of
1:08:58
special workouts for a 2122 footer that you you just do
1:09:03
different maybe intensities or volumes for the 17 or you may be
1:09:05
focused on more technique and you're still focused on
1:09:08
technique on a 22 footer. So but, but I think sometimes I
1:09:12
won't say young coaches but coaches who get in that first,
1:09:15
you get that first, you know, amazing athlete or get into a
1:09:18
program where there's several of them.
1:09:20
There's a little bit like, Oh well, I better do more or I
1:09:23
better do extra or I better do whatever.
1:09:25
That extra 1% workout that I haven't learned because I
1:09:28
haven't gotten to the club yet. But now I coach a 22 footer so
1:09:30
I'm in the club and that's actually that's not true.
1:09:34
Hey, listen, What You're. Saying is exactly right.
1:09:37
There's no question about it. I've always.
1:09:40
Felt exactly the. Way you're talking, you know, so
1:09:43
many times I've I've really enjoyed coaching women's track
1:09:46
and field. I and I've had success coaching
1:09:49
women's track and field and I've had lots of people say obviously
1:09:53
you know coaches and others, obviously it's way different
1:09:56
coaching women than men. And I've always thought, yeah, I
1:10:00
don't, I don't feel like I do almost anything differently for
1:10:06
anybody like you're saying for a lower level jumper or bolt or a
1:10:13
higher level multi eventer. I am a fairly simple minded guy,
1:10:18
I guess that way. And in the case of Angie, at the
1:10:23
outset I made the comment I worked with Angie, I I was the
1:10:28
jumps coach and I worked with her in the long jump.
1:10:32
But I don't even use the word coach because she was a sprinter
1:10:36
who came over to the long jump once or twice a week and she had
1:10:42
a significant knee problem and she literally didn't jump in
1:10:46
practice. We literally didn't do almost
1:10:49
even pop ups. Now she.
1:10:52
Would we would? Occasionally do pop ups at the
1:10:55
end of an approach, but do you know what?
1:10:58
We worked on her approach? That's when she she could Sprint
1:11:02
without too much knee pain, and then she'd jump at the meet.
1:11:06
So I coached her at the track meets, and I coached her in
1:11:08
practice. And I was real eager and young,
1:11:12
and so I was doing everything I could to figure out how to help
1:11:15
her Master her approach. But you came around.
1:11:19
You came. You came around to something.
1:11:21
I was gonna. I was gonna.
1:11:22
Boy, it's hard for me to say this to you, but to correct you
1:11:24
on and and because you originally you started out.
1:11:27
You said hey I I said I worked with her and then you explain
1:11:30
you know, 'cause you you didn't get to do what you would have
1:11:32
traditionally do with a call called a full time long jumper.
1:11:35
However, in my mind, you know now having, you know I'm an old
1:11:39
man now here both I've, you know 30 years in this sport and
1:11:42
coaching and and on this side seeing way more about coaches
1:11:46
and what they do that is coaching.
1:11:48
Coaching isn't just I have a full time long jumper.
1:11:50
So we do approach work and pop ups and, you know, speed work,
1:11:53
etcetera. Sometimes coaching is knowing
1:11:57
when, hey, you know what, I can't do those things.
1:11:59
Thank goodness she can do the Sprint workouts and she works
1:12:02
with Coach Pepin on that or whatever bad coaching would be.
1:12:07
Well, we're long jumping. So we're I I'm sorry your knee
1:12:09
hurts, but we've got to pop up to do this.
1:12:11
That's the only way to be successful as a long jumper.
1:12:13
That's bad coaching, Good coaching, not just working with
1:12:15
someone is, hey, we're we're going to take it easy here.
1:12:18
We're going to get everything we can out of you.
1:12:20
But that means we're not going to be able to do pop ups or you
1:12:23
know, this other type of jump work workouts, etcetera.
1:12:25
So you came around the end because you said, yeah, I
1:12:27
coached her, but I coached her in a limited that's coaching,
1:12:29
man. That's that's the cerebral, the
1:12:30
whole side of coaching, not just.
1:12:32
I took her from Zero to 100. So Bravo that you understood
1:12:36
that. Bravo that you had people that
1:12:38
helped you understand that as well.
1:12:39
Like, hey man, we're not going to be able to do these things
1:12:41
with her. We still can win if you don't do
1:12:44
those things with her. That's the crazy part.
1:12:45
We can still win if you don't do those things with her.
1:12:48
You had to keep your eye on the ultimate.
1:12:50
Prize. You're right.
1:12:51
And and that is get her to the track.
1:12:53
Meet. Have her at the track.
1:12:55
And I have. I have many times, and this is
1:13:01
not to be insulting to any coaches at all, but I have many
1:13:04
times said that it seems like in the way you're talking, that
1:13:08
some coaches are writing workouts.
1:13:13
In in such a way as. To justify their existence.
1:13:16
I mean on on many days, rest on this day is what needs to
1:13:21
happen. Rest needs to happen today and
1:13:24
and maybe rest needs to happen for the whole Thanksgiving
1:13:27
break. And so that that four days in
1:13:30
fact let's build it in from from September 1, September 1, we're
1:13:34
planning that rest is going to happen over Thanksgiving.
1:13:37
Because we're going to have a good hard training you know
1:13:41
cycle and and lead up to that point and then let's back off
1:13:45
and give you a chance to rest and recuperate.
1:13:50
You don't have to write a workout for that day just to
1:13:52
justify the fact that you're a coach.
1:13:54
You know you can. You know what I think?
1:13:56
I think that comes. I'd love to hear your opinion on
1:13:59
this. Where I think that sometimes
1:14:00
come from. I think you're right.
1:14:02
Sometimes it does come from you're describing it coming from
1:14:05
the ego side. I have to justify that I'm a
1:14:07
coach so we're going to work out hell or high water your body
1:14:10
feels I don't care we're going to do this right.
1:14:11
But if we if we rest all week. Well what am I here for type of
1:14:14
thing that's an ego side. I I actually think the majority
1:14:18
of that because I see that a lot.
1:14:19
I'm with you on this I think coming from this side of the the
1:14:23
table here. So you know I have a different
1:14:24
view of it. It might not be the right view
1:14:26
but. So I'd love to get your your
1:14:27
take on this. I think it comes from fear of
1:14:29
judgement. You know I think about I I love
1:14:32
convention. I love the the Thursday night at
1:14:36
the in the lobby of the hotel when coaches gather.
1:14:39
I love when we are all talking and we're trading stories and
1:14:42
we're trading workouts and we're trading experiences.
1:14:44
I love, like, that's the kind of thing I wish I could capture on
1:14:46
the podcast, actually, 'cause that's the real culture of
1:14:49
coaching. But I think sometimes we get
1:14:51
caught up in, oh man, that coach coached.
1:14:55
You know, we used to keep using the women's long jump here.
1:14:57
That coach coached a 22 footer last year.
1:15:00
Boy, how silly am I going to look when I say, hey, you know,
1:15:02
for my 20 footer, We actually didn't work out over
1:15:06
Thanksgiving because of what? Like, I can't say that.
1:15:08
So I better make sure we do work.
1:15:10
I I think there's a fear of judgment in coaching.
1:15:12
And that is where I do think the connectivity of today, the
1:15:15
social media, cell phone, etcetera, gets caught up because
1:15:19
we, we post a lot of workouts and a lot of, you know, my kid
1:15:22
just won this. My kid just set this PR and then
1:15:24
you're sitting there looking at it going, Oh my gosh, what's
1:15:26
wrong with me? Why are my kids PR in every day
1:15:28
or why isn't she PR Ed? Or why haven't we done this?
1:15:30
And it's like, well, I guess I better do more workouts.
1:15:32
And the access to workouts is incredible today compared to
1:15:36
even 10 years ago. I think the fear of judgment
1:15:40
drive some of that sometimes instead of being confident in
1:15:43
your skin, confident in your curiosity to what other coaches
1:15:47
are doing. But knowing that your athlete
1:15:50
and your situation, your school, your program, etcetera is vastly
1:15:53
different from every other program out there, so you're
1:15:55
going to have to do things differently.
1:15:58
I. I agree with you 100.
1:15:59
Percent you've got to try to tailor it to to your situation
1:16:04
and to your to the academics, the academic calendar and the
1:16:07
academic schedule and and your meet schedule and learn what
1:16:13
works, you know in in your system and and go with it and
1:16:19
vacation your facilities. Your age.
1:16:22
And stage of coaching. I mean, Bull, where you are
1:16:25
today. We're talking about Nebraska
1:16:27
right now where you had, you know, a lot of success and coach
1:16:30
some really amazing athletes and performances.
1:16:32
Would you say you're a different coach today?
1:16:34
And what I mean when I say different evolve like you're
1:16:36
even better today than you were back then.
1:16:41
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, you've heard the old
1:16:45
phrase. You know that old coach has
1:16:48
forgotten more than those coaches will ever know.
1:16:52
And and I used to think that was a cute, you know, old saying or
1:16:57
something. And now I go, no, that's not a
1:17:01
cute old saying. That's that's a legitimate
1:17:04
remark. I have forgotten more than some
1:17:07
young coaches might know. And how do I know that?
1:17:10
Because every now and then I hear about something that some
1:17:13
young coach is doing and I go, son of a gun.
1:17:16
I used to do that. I've forgotten about that.
1:17:19
That's pretty good. I need.
1:17:21
I need to do that again. That was really good.
1:17:23
I used to do that. Yeah, we, we.
1:17:25
But I do think that the reason that I have set aside some of
1:17:29
those old things is because I've learned and I've learned what
1:17:32
works and I've zeroed in on. I've crystallized my thinking
1:17:36
down to the things that work. And then and then eliminated the
1:17:40
things that don't work. And.
1:17:41
And so, yes, I'd like to think that I'm a better coach now than
1:17:46
I was before. Absolutely.
1:17:49
It's a hard thing to do. To to when you're talking about
1:17:53
workouts and even what you can get get out of the kids or not.
1:17:57
I I remember you know when I coached I don't know if we still
1:17:59
use I haven't heard this terminology too much in the last
1:18:02
decade or so but back then we used to talk about with
1:18:04
sprinters float Sprint float. I I think it's more of AI have
1:18:11
so you said that both I have literally forgotten everything.
1:18:14
I've forgotten more than you'll ever know because I've forgotten
1:18:16
all of it. Man.
1:18:17
I, you know I'm at a practice dog so there's no, I just forget
1:18:21
everything. Let's see what I'm trying not
1:18:25
Max velocity. What's after speed endurance.
1:18:27
So I think that was kind of a speed endurance workout.
1:18:29
But I could never by the way I was taught it, I could never get
1:18:34
the kid. I actually couldn't understand
1:18:35
it, how a kid's supposed to go from 100% and then freewheel,
1:18:38
you know the float part, you know, 95% and then back up to
1:18:41
100. I was like, I I just can't
1:18:42
concept that so I can't teach the kids.
1:18:44
So I just took it out. Everybody, every all the big
1:18:47
dogs were talking about it and I was like, must be dumb.
1:18:50
I just can't do it. So luckily I was smart enough
1:18:51
that I just didn't do it. I was like, we're just not going
1:18:53
to do it. I can't figure it out.
1:18:54
So but that's hard because the the ego, I mean, I had a lot of
1:18:56
big coaches that were like, yeah, we float somewhere and
1:18:58
float. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, why
1:18:59
don't I can't, I don't know. I don't know how to do this
1:19:01
thing. So that's hard that that's where
1:19:03
confidence has to come in. But also with the dose of
1:19:06
humility, to continue learning as well.
1:19:09
So OK, you're at Nebraska. How long at Nebraska and where
1:19:14
to next? So seven years at?
1:19:17
Nebraska And then, you know, I, Bill Byrne, was the athletic
1:19:21
director of Nebraska and he left there, if I'm not mistaken, went
1:19:24
to Texas A&M. But I went and talked to him
1:19:26
about, you know, if I, if I want to be a head coach, tell me what
1:19:29
I need to do. Tell me what steps I need to
1:19:32
take in order to be a head coach.
1:19:34
And he said, well, you need the head coaching experience.
1:19:36
You need to go get some head coaching experience.
1:19:38
And it has appeared to me that that has changed over the years
1:19:43
a little bit because I know but back then I will tell you that
1:19:46
he was right. There were very few assistant
1:19:48
coaches that rose to to head positions back then.
1:19:52
It it seemed like at least not directly it was kind of maybe
1:19:57
they did within a program but but to move to a upper level
1:20:01
significant head job was very difficult and in today's world
1:20:05
more of that has happened. More coaches have moved from
1:20:11
good programs as assistant coaches to head jobs.
1:20:14
But anyway I. Heard about the Kent State
1:20:18
University head job. I knew nothing about Kent State.
1:20:22
I didn't know about the Mid American Conference.
1:20:25
I didn't know about the. The field house there at.
1:20:30
Kent State, you know, nice 300m, oversized indoor track.
1:20:33
But I heard about that when I heard about the job and it
1:20:36
caught my attention. I I've been in the big eight and
1:20:40
and kind of the what referred to in today's world as the power
1:20:44
five level that's the level that I had been at in college and at
1:20:48
Nebraska and I just wasn't familiar with the mid American.
1:20:52
Well, I found out, man, that was a heck of a conference.
1:20:56
You know that Eastern Michigan group with with Bob Parks and
1:21:01
and then the Western, there was some good track and field in
1:21:05
that league. Man, that was a heck of a
1:21:07
conference. And anything below, I say below
1:21:13
at at any level. That is not.
1:21:16
What we're now referring to as the Power 5, which back then we
1:21:20
referred to as one a stuff like that Eastern.
1:21:25
Michigan has to be in the. Conversation for, you know,
1:21:28
greatest. Non power 5.
1:21:33
Track and field operation in history.
1:21:36
So does. So does Lou Hartzog's old
1:21:39
Southern Illinois teams. Those were unbelievable.
1:21:43
And and it's something that I have aspired to here at Wichita
1:21:47
State to have a program that is thought of as one of the, you
1:21:50
know, top as one of the top programs at this level, so to
1:21:56
speak. Yeah, it is.
1:22:00
If you don't know the history, I I love that you brought up
1:22:02
Carbondale's program because I remember one time I was teaching
1:22:05
at level one and someone else teaching was from Carbondale
1:22:08
back in those days. And he was a 7274 high jumper.
1:22:11
And I was like, oh wow, Carbondale.
1:22:12
He's like, Oh yeah, I think I was second on my team in high
1:22:14
jump. He's like I got a better guy.
1:22:16
He goes. And then we also had, you know,
1:22:17
this you know, 300 foot javelin thrower and the four by four
1:22:21
team ran. Then I was like, wait a minute,
1:22:23
Carbondale, because, you know I get caught in the trap of it.
1:22:25
You know it's only LSU, Florida State, USC.
1:22:28
You know it's I get caught in that same trap that that we
1:22:31
always get into. That's why I do love like right
1:22:33
now. Northern Arizona specifically.
1:22:35
Like man, I love, I love that. I I I just absolutely love that.
1:22:40
So you you mentioned you're in the Mack.
1:22:42
I totally, totally forgot about that.
1:22:44
What What was your last year in the Mack what what season was So
1:22:48
it was? The year 2000 it was.
1:22:51
It was the spring of 2000. OK, I came.
1:22:54
Here in the summer of 2. Thousand got it.
1:22:56
So you left. Kent, I came to Ball State for
1:23:00
the 2002 and 2003 season. So you we we just miss each
1:23:04
other. But I remember that.
1:23:05
I totally forgot about that. Now I remember that and I agree
1:23:08
with you and I spent two years in that conference and I was
1:23:11
just talking to someone. I've been Wendell actually.
1:23:13
You know who. Speaking of Kent State what a
1:23:17
bunch of great coaches we had and and we still do in the
1:23:21
conference. I'm talking about when when we
1:23:22
were there, just killers as coaches.
1:23:25
I mean it was a tough conference meet.
1:23:28
I always distinctly remember the throws specifically but the
1:23:31
sprints distance. You're right with Bob's team.
1:23:33
Sue Parks put together an unbelievable squad there at at
1:23:36
Ball State. It was an amazing time.
1:23:39
Miami, Ohio. I mean, it really was
1:23:41
unbelievable during that time. How did you like you know I I
1:23:46
didn't think about you know I I was going to ask you about the
1:23:48
you know coaching in the Big A you know big school things like
1:23:50
that. I totally forget you also went
1:23:51
to school at big A so you just knew kind of big A that was your
1:23:55
you know your whole livelihood there.
1:23:56
How did you I'm going to say handle how did you adjust that's
1:24:00
a better term. How did you adjust to the mid
1:24:03
major You know there is differences budget travel
1:24:05
expectations caliber of athlete that you can attract initially
1:24:10
out of high school etcetera. How did you adjust to to that
1:24:13
level so? I don't know that I've got a
1:24:16
great answer to that question but I will tell you this is that
1:24:19
I that as a matter of regular routine it didn't occur to me
1:24:25
very much and what I what I mean is.
1:24:30
Track practice out here is. Just like track practice was at
1:24:33
Nebraska. And it's just like track.
1:24:34
Practice was at KU, Like track. Practice was at Kent.
1:24:38
State. And now when did I notice?
1:24:42
I I noticed, and I mean this is a transparent conversation.
1:24:48
I noticed that the NCAA meet at NCAA meet.
1:24:53
I would be less than honest if I didn't admit that I noticed the
1:24:56
guys you know my old staff mates walking around with a Nebraska
1:24:59
jacket on or the other guys and gals walking around with the the
1:25:06
SEC jackets on and the big 10 jackets on and and the big eight
1:25:10
and big and then obviously real quick after that it was the Big
1:25:13
12 jackets on and the I get it I that was that I would notice and
1:25:20
then literally on my way back to Kent I'm back engaged with Kent
1:25:27
State track and field I'm back engaged with trying to win the
1:25:29
mid American I'm it it it didn't really bother me a bit now
1:25:35
budget was something but I was not the head coach at Nebraska
1:25:39
so budget concerns was not my tell you that at Nebraska we
1:25:43
were that was the early 90s and we were more careful about
1:25:48
budget than I think the really really well to do big 10 and SEC
1:25:53
programs are now we were not spending money like water.
1:25:58
Back then, we. We were spending money.
1:26:01
I mean, we had a premier program and if we were spending money,
1:26:05
but not like they do now. Big Team Network changed the
1:26:08
game, I think, yeah. Close.
1:26:10
And when I say that, I got to Kent.
1:26:12
And I for me it was I was now I'm the head coach and I'm
1:26:15
watching over the budget. But it didn't occur to me.
1:26:19
We made a spring trip to California.
1:26:21
We ate some peanut butter sandwiches.
1:26:23
You know we had had four in a room so that we could make a
1:26:27
trip so that we could be out there for a week and and we
1:26:31
watched our pennies. But it was good.
1:26:34
It was great. I didn't have it too much.
1:26:37
OK, my favorite question. I asked this of everybody on
1:26:40
the. Podcast when they get their
1:26:41
first head coaching job, 'cause you don't know, to your point,
1:26:44
you you made a great point there.
1:26:45
You're like, how's the assistant in Nebraska?
1:26:47
Pep ran everything. So I've, I was told what I could
1:26:49
spend or not spend, etcetera. But now when you get the head
1:26:53
job, you never know what I think a lot of assistants think.
1:26:57
They know the head coaching job, but you never know until you are
1:27:00
sitting at that desk and have those responsibilities.
1:27:02
So I'm always curious. Here's my here's I got two
1:27:04
questions for you. The first one is when you got
1:27:08
the head job at Kent State, what did you think?
1:27:13
Yeah. What did you think was going to
1:27:15
be hard that ended up being easy for you?
1:27:19
So think about fundraising, budgeting, making a schedule,
1:27:23
doling out where scholarship money, you know, there's the
1:27:25
whole purview of head coaching. You know, there's a lot that you
1:27:28
have to do. You may have to go speak at the
1:27:29
Kiwanis Club now because you're the head coach, things like
1:27:31
that. What did you come in thinking?
1:27:33
Oh, this? I might struggle here, but as
1:27:35
you got into it was like, oh, OK, Actually, I picked that up
1:27:37
pretty easy. That wasn't as hard as I thought
1:27:39
it might be so. I suppose I was probably nervous
1:27:49
or whatever I I. Really don't remember.
1:27:52
Being particularly nervous, I felt reasonably confident that I
1:27:56
knew what I was doing, but I was now going to be recruiting.
1:28:01
Or at least. Monitoring and watching over the
1:28:05
recruiting of an entire track and field operation instead of
1:28:10
just an event area, you know. And so that was something that I
1:28:15
was wanting to figure out. I I don't know that I was wildly
1:28:19
nervous about it, but I was wanting to make sure I got to
1:28:22
figure out how to do this, you know, and you know, philosophy
1:28:27
about scholarship expenditures. But I enjoyed that.
1:28:32
I enjoyed figuring out how to. Distribute scholarship money.
1:28:38
And I feel like that we have figured it out.
1:28:40
I was figuring it out at Kent State as a head coach and I have
1:28:43
refined it here at Wichita State.
1:28:46
And I feel like we have a good system for distributing
1:28:49
scholarship money. And that was something that, you
1:28:54
know, was significant right away.
1:28:55
And then scheduling is always an annual challenge to to figure
1:29:03
out all of the nuances of putting together a nice meet
1:29:07
schedule. You know what I mean?
1:29:10
So I suppose that that one was challenging a little bit because
1:29:14
I'm going in there and I'm thinking well I got to figure
1:29:16
out how much this budget will allow me to do.
1:29:21
And so you kind of got to sit down and immediately come up
1:29:24
with some sort of a. But the good news was that out
1:29:27
there in Ohio, man, there's lots of good track and field nearby.
1:29:32
You don't have to drive far. That whole mid American
1:29:35
conference was within a three hour drive or something like you
1:29:38
know what I mean Now they once they added Buffalo it that was a
1:29:43
little more of a drive but not much it wasn't that much more of
1:29:47
a drive and so it I love that I love that regional feel you you
1:29:53
were in the I remember my history.
1:29:56
You were in the thick of it in the Mack, especially near the
1:29:59
end of the 2000 time where we were dropping a lot of men's
1:30:03
programs and that continued. Unfortunately, when I was at
1:30:05
Ball State we dropped the men's program.
1:30:08
Now they're, you know, the the Mack is, you know it's it's a
1:30:12
it's a pittance of itself. Yeah. 4.
1:30:14
Four. Yeah.
1:30:14
There's, there's. It's great women.
1:30:16
'S conference, It's unbelievable.
1:30:17
It's actually quite impressive what the men do considering
1:30:20
there's only four teams out there.
1:30:22
How did you navigate those waters?
1:30:24
What, What? As you just think about us
1:30:26
dropping men's programs and and the Mack was just devastated as
1:30:29
we were trying to become with the next BCS Football Conference
1:30:33
there in the Mack which is just ludicrous.
1:30:36
How did you handle and navigate any concerns that were maybe
1:30:40
coming up? You might be right.
1:30:42
We might have dropped some. But really, even all the way up
1:30:46
until I left, it was still 8-9 teams on the men.
1:30:52
And because I feel like it happened in one big fell swoop,
1:30:58
all of a sudden they dropped four or five programs and it was
1:31:02
down to four or five teams, I think.
1:31:05
And that was right after I got to Wichita State somewhere early
1:31:09
on in the 2000. Right, right, right, right,
1:31:11
right. Yeah.
1:31:11
And. And so I.
1:31:15
I didn't feel it. I don't.
1:31:17
I don't remember feeling that, but Oh my gosh, I I love being
1:31:24
at. Kent State That's a that's.
1:31:25
A great place, you know, I'm a Kansan and so.
1:31:31
This was a. Lateral move professionally to
1:31:35
go from Kent State to Wichita State.
1:31:37
The Missouri Valley that we were in when when I got here was
1:31:40
similar to the mid American. The the budget here was similar
1:31:45
to the budget at Kent. I could go on it.
1:31:48
It was over and over and over. The athletic department was a
1:31:51
similar kind of an athletic department.
1:31:53
Other than that we don't have football here but but the bottom
1:31:58
line is that this was something of a lateral move professionally
1:32:03
but but I love. The reason I did that was
1:32:09
because it was get back. Home.
1:32:11
Get back closer to home and we host the state high school
1:32:15
championship. I competed right out here behind
1:32:17
me in the state high school championship as a high school
1:32:21
athlete. And it's me.
1:32:23
To me it means a lot. And so I wanted I I thought this
1:32:27
was great that I would come. Did you think, and I appreciate
1:32:30
you moving it forward because for the sake of time I have a
1:32:32
billion other. Questions, I want to make sure
1:32:33
we get in. So I appreciate you moving it
1:32:34
forward here to Wichita. Did you move to Wichita?
1:32:38
I I get the family and the connections and totally didn't
1:32:40
even think about you competed on that facility.
1:32:43
That's quite, I love that kind of closed loop there.
1:32:46
I really do love that. Did you go there thinking, I'm
1:32:49
assuming at this agent stage bolt, that you're going to
1:32:52
retire from Wichita State? I I could be wrong.
1:32:54
That's an assumption here. But did you go there thinking
1:32:57
this is going to be the last job to retirement or it was like, Oh
1:32:59
no, I'm going to go back home and we'll we'll see.
1:33:03
I probably did. Not think that this would be.
1:33:06
The final one, but I was open to it all along.
1:33:09
I've been open to staying here forever, but you know, in in the
1:33:16
interest of. Transparency.
1:33:18
My alma mater would have always been a dream job.
1:33:21
That that would have been a dream job.
1:33:23
And I enjoyed my time in Lincoln, NE so much that that
1:33:27
would have been something of a dream job.
1:33:30
But at some point, you know, I'm 66 years old.
1:33:33
At some point, probably somewhere around 60, I started
1:33:37
thinking, well, this is a great place.
1:33:39
This has been a wonderful place. I've thought that every step of
1:33:41
the way. So don't misunderstand, there
1:33:43
been a couple of dream jobs. But other than that, I've been a
1:33:47
happy camper here for 24 years. I've been here 24 years and it's
1:33:52
been, it's been a great place, a great community, a great
1:33:57
athletic department. You know, men's basketball was
1:34:00
in the Final Four in 2013. And so we rode a pretty terrific
1:34:05
wave for a long time of upper level basketball success.
1:34:10
Obviously I mentioned that because that translated into
1:34:13
athletic department success. You know it it it, it was a
1:34:18
wonderful time to be a shocker and it still is a wonderful time
1:34:22
to be a shocker. We've got a fabulous athletic
1:34:24
director that I'm really enjoying working with and and
1:34:28
senior women's administrator and all of that.
1:34:30
And so this place has been a wonderful career path spot for
1:34:36
me. So let's talk more about
1:34:37
Washington, Washington State. Sorry.
1:34:39
WSU is on my head. Wichita State, you mentioned you
1:34:44
don't have football. You've been at places that have
1:34:46
all had football, some at very high levels, Nebraska, some at.
1:34:50
We want to be at high level. So we're going to take the
1:34:53
athletic departments. I'm not specifically mentioned
1:34:54
Kent State, they're kind of the Mac in general there and now
1:34:57
you're at a place that doesn't have football.
1:34:58
Do you think? You know you've been at
1:35:00
different places, you obviously you don't have friends at all,
1:35:03
different gamuts that have football and don't have
1:35:05
football. Is is this a benefit for you as
1:35:08
the track coach or is this a detriment as the track coach?
1:35:12
For my perspective, it's a major benefit.
1:35:16
That we don't have football And and I will tell you that when I
1:35:19
was in the Missouri Valley, I haven't heard this comment in
1:35:21
quite a while but when I was in the Missouri Valley I would hear
1:35:24
some of those, some of our opponents at other Valley
1:35:28
schools, you know, cry the Blues a little bit.
1:35:32
That geez, not having football is a huge advantage for you guys
1:35:36
because you know a a football Saturday is a wonderful, is a
1:35:41
wonderful day for people, for athletes, for the community, for
1:35:46
whatever. But other than those six
1:35:48
Saturdays, it's an army of football players running around,
1:35:51
an athletic department using up tons of the resources, Tons of
1:35:56
the resources. And thankfully at Nebraska, the
1:36:02
Big Red Machine was such that that.
1:36:04
Wasn't too. Bad for us it footballs.
1:36:08
I we certainly understood the hierarchies of college
1:36:11
athletics. Football was the mother lode,
1:36:15
but we still had a wonderful situation.
1:36:18
We had good facilities and we were well financed with budget
1:36:21
and all that, so it didn't harm us.
1:36:24
But I will tell you that both at KU, as an athlete, you know, I
1:36:28
have recollections of my 2 Hall of Fame coaches having a
1:36:33
football manager come down to the stadium in the middle of
1:36:36
foot, in the middle of track practice and go coach.
1:36:38
Football teams coming down today, they didn't think they
1:36:41
were going to, but they're on the way.
1:36:43
You're going to have to leave and and we have to leave and it
1:36:47
didn't happen very often. You know, I love KU and all
1:36:50
that, but it happened multiple times and it made you feel like
1:36:55
a second class citizen and. I didn't like that.
1:36:57
And at Kent State, that beautiful field house, I can
1:37:02
remember at the other end of the field house was, you know,
1:37:05
garage door. And a rainy day outside that
1:37:08
garage door would open up and here would come the helmets and
1:37:10
shoulder pads. And we knew the track practice
1:37:13
was getting ready to be over. But like I would tell the
1:37:16
athletes, hey guys, this is frustrating.
1:37:18
I get it. We get kicked out when they come
1:37:21
in, but you know what? It's three or four or five times
1:37:24
a year. We we'll survive it.
1:37:26
Come on, this is not that big of a deal.
1:37:29
Now I was trying to put a positive spin on something that
1:37:32
was pretty, you know, pretty frustrating, but but it was
1:37:35
true. It wasn't that big of a deal.
1:37:37
We we that athletic department was wonderful and all that.
1:37:42
But my point is that. Football.
1:37:45
I never found it to be spectacular to have a football
1:37:48
program now. The occasional sprinter, you
1:37:51
know what I mean? For the occasional rower.
1:37:53
OK, that was great, but I've not missed it here.
1:37:57
Just having it not compared to the benefits of not having a
1:38:02
football program. Yeah, I love that.
1:38:05
All right. Earlier you mentioned.
1:38:07
When you got to Kent State and you had to Start learning and
1:38:10
put into play, you know your recruiting dollar distribution
1:38:13
and you know one of the things that has been really awesome to
1:38:17
watch. I knew about them when I got to
1:38:19
Ball State. I knew about them from your Kent
1:38:20
State days and now you know watching for the past 20 plus
1:38:23
years here at Wichita State, a Steve Rainbolt LED team is
1:38:27
always going to be a team. You don't load up the sprints
1:38:32
and hurdles and have a bad cross country team.
1:38:34
You guys are almost like you're decathlon.
1:38:37
You guys are solid across the board here and then you'll have
1:38:41
those superior athletes that that you guys coach up to.
1:38:44
How have you at Wichita State because you've been through
1:38:48
different conferences and that changes things and you've had
1:38:51
people come into conferences and lead kind of that changes how
1:38:53
you were. I remember when I was at
1:38:55
Mississippi State we were a 12 team, 12 team conference and I
1:39:01
remember I left right before Missouri and Texas A&M came in.
1:39:04
But I was like oh man, that would change your recruiting,
1:39:06
you know less walk ONS and things like that 'cause you got
1:39:08
two more good teams And now with Oklahoma and Texas coming in, Oh
1:39:11
my God, that's that's going to change up how they do things
1:39:13
tremendously. Now with 16 teams your
1:39:15
conference meet looks different at 16 teams as it does 12
1:39:18
etcetera. How have you navigated different
1:39:21
conferences that that kind of you know that's a mix that you
1:39:24
can't you have no control over that How how have you continued
1:39:28
to evolve and amplify that that recruiting dollar distribution
1:39:33
that you do balance and depth you said it balance.
1:39:37
And depth is. Is the hallmark of our focus.
1:39:40
It's it's what we're going to try to accomplish.
1:39:43
We've always tried hard for balance and depth and and and we
1:39:49
try to distribute our scholarship money accordingly.
1:39:52
The first time that we ever sort of questioned that philosophy in
1:40:00
in our scholarship distribution system was when we went in the
1:40:04
American and Houston's Sprint group was otherworldly.
1:40:11
Otherworldly. I mean, one of those years in
1:40:14
there I felt like, well, this, this, this group has to be in
1:40:18
the conversation for greatest. Sprint group.
1:40:21
In the history of collegiate track, they were putting like 7
1:40:23
in the finals of the 100 and stuff.
1:40:25
Like that. You're right, they they weren't
1:40:26
just a good, they were good nationally and really good
1:40:29
conference wise as well. I remember this.
1:40:31
Yeah, it was, it was ridiculous. It was.
1:40:33
It was unbelievably tough and that year that I'm talking
1:40:35
about. They set the collegiate record,
1:40:39
the four by one. If I'm not mistaken, they set
1:40:42
some sort of a world record in the indoor 4x4 and and they had
1:40:47
a national champion in a Sprint race.
1:40:51
Anyway, I'm thinking just by those two relay accomplishments
1:40:56
they have to be in the conversation for best Sprint
1:40:59
group in the history of collegiate track.
1:41:01
They got to be in the conversation when you have the
1:41:03
collegiate record in the four by one and some sort of.
1:41:06
I say some sort of because I always get confused about about
1:41:10
world records like indoors, if it's international athletes and
1:41:15
I. Same same.
1:41:17
They set some sort of a world. Record indoors in the four by. 4
1:41:21
And so anyway, it made us question and only only question
1:41:26
that made us think was, well, OK, we'll keep recruiting
1:41:29
sprinters, but they got to be good enough or else why invest
1:41:33
scholarship money? Because you're because you're
1:41:35
staring at that seven of eight in the finals.
1:41:37
And and not only, but but it's also not a blip because you're
1:41:40
like, oh, well, their focus isn't going to change off of
1:41:42
that. So it's not like, oh, we just
1:41:43
have to bear through this for a year or two, let these kids
1:41:45
graduate, then things get back to air.
1:41:47
Quotes. Normal.
1:41:47
It's like, oh man, as long as that staff is there, by the way,
1:41:49
they've held that staff all the way through.
1:41:52
What am I doing? Why that This comes with a
1:41:55
question mark that diminishes the value of the money that
1:41:59
you're spending on a kid. Not the kid, but the money
1:42:00
you're spending on that time, 'cause it's like, man, 1060,
1:42:03
that's awesome. Would love to have you won't
1:42:06
even make the finals. No.
1:42:08
Yeah, right. Way to go before you make the
1:42:10
final now, I will say. That you mentioned seven of
1:42:14
eight in the final. That's true.
1:42:16
And the 8th one was a Wichita State kid.
1:42:18
Yeah, there you go. And I was proud of that.
1:42:22
And so we we have scored in a bunch of the Sprint events but
1:42:25
it you know we're scoring a guy or and and or maybe in the 400
1:42:30
hurdles two or three guys or the high hurdles two or three guys
1:42:34
and we've had some scoring in the 400 but it's it's hard man
1:42:38
it's harder to get out it is not easy and so so I have like so
1:42:45
you said I'm sorry I interrupt you I wanted I want you to
1:42:47
continue actually what you're saying there.
1:42:49
You said you started to question it, so So what, what was the
1:42:53
answer then as you guys started kind of question it what was the
1:42:55
answer? Persevere change.
1:42:56
What did you, what did you do? Well, also stick with our.
1:43:01
Our foundational principles, which is distribute scholarship
1:43:05
money based on contribution to the team effort at American
1:43:09
Athletic Conference Championship meet competition.
1:43:12
That's how we're going to distribute scholarship money.
1:43:14
Well, that creates some guardrails for you because you
1:43:20
know that who's you know that you have to be good enough in
1:43:26
order to get up in that final in order to deserve very much
1:43:31
scholarship money. Now we might still give a small
1:43:34
scholarship to an athlete that's not good enough and then hope
1:43:37
that they develop and and certainly we're hoping and
1:43:40
thinking that they'll be on our four by one and things like
1:43:44
that. But the other option would be
1:43:47
build a four by one off of long jumpers and 400 meter runners
1:43:52
and high hurdlers and touch like that and and score points in
1:43:57
those events and and by the way we've won the last two
1:44:00
conference outdoor Conference championships and I'm really
1:44:04
proud of that. I It's a difficult part of the
1:44:07
conversation because. So.
1:44:09
Proud of it that Houston operation is is premier and one
1:44:15
of the terrific track and field operations in America And I am
1:44:19
so impressed with them and it meant the world to me as a coach
1:44:23
and to our program to our athletes to win those two
1:44:26
conference titles. It it absolutely meant the world
1:44:30
to us and I love those guys on the staff down there at Houston.
1:44:34
And so bottom line, that's been when I say that it's a difficult
1:44:38
part of the conversation. What I mean is that I'm at risk
1:44:41
of acting like that. Those two championships have
1:44:44
meant more to me than the other 33 that we've won during my time
1:44:47
here. And we've won 35 team titles
1:44:49
here and they've, every single one of them been super
1:44:52
meaningful and a major celebration and all of that.
1:44:56
These two have been special. There's no way.
1:44:59
It's just a fact, you know, winning is hard and I think we
1:45:03
get spoiled in track. Because we have, you know, 2122
1:45:06
whatever the number of events are.
1:45:07
So every meet we go to, there's a winner, where in football, you
1:45:11
know, there's one winner, baseball 1 winner, etcetera.
1:45:13
So I think we get spoiled sometimes winning is hard.
1:45:16
So whether you're winning the individual event or winning
1:45:18
A-Team title, that's hard. Whether you're in the Missouri
1:45:21
Valley, the D3 California Institute, it don't matter.
1:45:25
You're up against other people who are also wanting to bury
1:45:28
you. It's hard.
1:45:30
So every one of those championships, no doubt I, I get
1:45:32
exactly where you're coming from.
1:45:35
And in the face of a daunting, you know, what Houston has put
1:45:37
together, I could see where it's like, oh, man, everything had to
1:45:39
go perfect. You know, we we had to go
1:45:41
perfect and we needed a mistake to happen maybe.
1:45:43
And guess what? We we persevered through that.
1:45:45
I love that. All right.
1:45:46
Two more questions here to wrap us up here, Bolt.
1:45:49
One is, I'd like for you to tell us because you do something
1:45:51
really unique. I only know about it a little
1:45:53
bit from the outside, from social media and stuff.
1:45:56
You know, there's no way we could do this podcast without
1:45:59
mentioning the word golf with you.
1:46:02
Tell us about this. I I don't know if it's a
1:46:04
fundraiser for for the track program or if you do it for
1:46:07
charity. Tell us about this annual just
1:46:09
crazy thing you do on the golf course.
1:46:13
Well, so. I mean it's a there's a little
1:46:19
bit of a. Back story.
1:46:20
I'll try to make it. Quick you know, I'm a fitness
1:46:23
oriented guy. I'm a health and Wellness guy.
1:46:25
I was a physical education major and I've always cared about
1:46:28
health and Wellness and I enjoy fitness.
1:46:30
I enjoyed running after I was done with being a competitive
1:46:34
athlete. I enjoyed getting out for a run
1:46:36
and as I was approaching 30, I believe approaching. 30 I
1:46:43
thought, you know, I'm. Going to do a marathon when I
1:46:45
turn 30, that'll be a birthday challenge.
1:46:48
It'll be a a challenge for me to do.
1:46:50
And I somewhere and I started training for it.
1:46:53
I ran 1/2 marathon. Somewhere along the line I got
1:46:56
sick like a bad cold or something and it sidelined me
1:46:59
and I got sidetracked and I didn't do it.
1:47:02
Age 40, I'm approaching 40 and I start thinking the same way.
1:47:06
I'm going to do a marathon and I get sidetracked and I don't do
1:47:09
it. So I'm approaching 50 and I'm
1:47:14
thinking, you know, I haven't ever accomplished what I wanted
1:47:18
to accomplish. I'm going to do it this time.
1:47:20
I'm going to get up there and and I'm going to do something at
1:47:25
my 50th birthday. Well, I think of a 50 Miller.
1:47:30
I think I'm. Going to go 50 miles.
1:47:32
That's what I'm going to do, actually, in the world, are you
1:47:37
thinking? You kind of know it's 26.2, so
1:47:39
you say, well, I'll just double it.
1:47:42
So I talked with one of my athletes.
1:47:44
One of my former athletes from Nebraska, she was an All
1:47:47
American 400 on the 4 by 4 relay and she had done some ultra
1:47:52
marathons And I go, hey Jenny, I'm thinking about running a 50
1:47:57
Miller when I turn 50 and she goes, coach don't do that.
1:48:00
Oh thank you Jenny. Thank you.
1:48:03
She goes yeah. You should, yeah.
1:48:04
You shouldn't do that. I don't.
1:48:06
I don't want you to do that, shouldn't do that.
1:48:08
And I'm like really, I was thinking I'd like to train for
1:48:11
it, you know, get ready and do it.
1:48:13
And she's like, yeah, sorry, don't do that.
1:48:16
And I go, OK, what about 50 kilometers?
1:48:19
And she goes, that would be more manageable.
1:48:21
You you can do that. That's, you know, 31 miles.
1:48:24
That's 31 miles. So.
1:48:27
And it So I come to the office and in order to like commit
1:48:31
myself, I tell the staff we're going to do a fundraiser.
1:48:36
I'm going to be a one man jog A thon and I'm going to cover 50
1:48:40
kilometers and do it on my 50th birthday.
1:48:44
Bottom line, I did it. We sent out Flyers.
1:48:48
It it was a fun event. Did it on the indoor track if
1:48:52
you can imagine. No way you ran 31 miles on the
1:48:56
indoor. Track.
1:48:57
Yes, which is really weird, but anyway.
1:49:01
How how bad did you feel after I was hurt?
1:49:05
Yeah. My my legs were demon.
1:49:07
Possessed, 'cause, you know, I'm a big guy and and I I was not
1:49:14
ready for ultra marathoning. I was.
1:49:16
I covered the distance. Now I did some walking.
1:49:19
I did quite a bit of walking. Sure.
1:49:20
Well, anyway, at that point I wasn't going to do it again.
1:49:24
But age 55 starts coming and I think, you know what?
1:49:27
I think I'll do it again. So I did it again.
1:49:30
I went 55 kilometers. That was 34.1 miles.
1:49:34
Did it right out here on this track Was and that was really
1:49:38
stupid, that was. Really not smart.
1:49:40
Because I almost I I was hurting so bad.
1:49:44
Well the athletes are playing ultimate frisbee on the infield.
1:49:46
The music is going. We turn it into an event and at
1:49:50
14 miles I I've got 20 miles to go.
1:49:54
At 14 miles, I think. I don't think I can keep going.
1:49:57
I'm hurting here. I'm struggling and I and I think
1:50:00
how far do I have to go? Wait a minute.
1:50:03
I've got 20 miles to go. I it was, it was daunting and
1:50:09
but I kept I I walked most of that like from that point
1:50:12
forward I was walking but I made it.
1:50:14
I made it in eight hours and 20 minutes and so then I was into
1:50:20
golf and you mentioned golf and I was playing golf with a doctor
1:50:24
in Kansas City that I randomly got you know connected up with.
1:50:28
They they they placed me with him and we're talking and we're
1:50:32
talking about steps on our, you know, Garmin watches and stuff
1:50:36
and and he tells me that every year he's a doctor.
1:50:40
Every year he goes out one day and plays the number of holes
1:50:44
that he is alive. So at this point he was probably
1:50:47
about 68 and he would go out and he would turn it into a little
1:50:51
fundraiser. He'd send out pledge forms to
1:50:53
his buddies and raise money for the Heart Association.
1:50:56
He was a doctor, you know, or something like that.
1:50:58
And I thought, son of a gun that that's something I you know, I'm
1:51:02
not going to run anymore because now I've got 2 total knee
1:51:06
replacements. Learn that lesson, these stupid
1:51:09
choices. But.
1:51:11
Anyway, I just thought, that's a pretty good, that's a pretty
1:51:15
good plan. I could walk and this was when I
1:51:17
was 57. So the first year I did it, I
1:51:19
was 57 years old and I walked 57 holes of golf and I probably
1:51:24
covered about 23 miles on foot, but I was walking and playing
1:51:28
golf and enjoying it. And we turned it into an event
1:51:30
for shocker track and field, and we turned it into a fundraiser
1:51:34
and raised a fair amount of money.
1:51:35
People would pledge by the whole, or they would pledge by
1:51:38
the stroke or you name it, you know what I'm saying?
1:51:42
So then I start doing it every year as an annual challenge.
1:51:46
And I did it for 9 consecutive years.
1:51:49
And this past year was the first year that I didn't do it.
1:51:53
I had a little heart incident in August.
1:51:55
By October. When I was usually doing it, I
1:51:58
just was not feeling ready. I didn't feel in shape for it
1:52:02
and I actually had a a wrist. Injury and one.
1:52:07
Thing or another, I didn't feel like I can do it, but I intend
1:52:09
to get back to it. I enjoy it and it's fun.
1:52:13
It's hard by the end of the day, but it's not near as hard as
1:52:16
those running activities. So, So, So what was the last
1:52:19
one, 6465? 85758596061. 6263646565 was the
1:52:27
last one, so that's what's what's the math so. 18 holes.
1:52:32
Right. So 3672.
1:52:34
So it's just under 4 full round. How long does that take you?
1:52:37
Is this like 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM? Yeah, Yeah.
1:52:41
Here's the deal. Is that I?
1:52:43
Can't do it in the summer when when it's a long day because
1:52:45
it's too hot and it won't last in the heat.
1:52:49
So I got to. I got to figure out how I can
1:52:52
get as close to cool conditions, but with cool conditions are
1:52:57
shorter days. And so I'm looking at late
1:53:01
October right around 1st of November.
1:53:04
And at that point I've got like 10 hours and 30 minutes of
1:53:08
daylight and I have to calculate 66 holes and how many minutes
1:53:14
per hole I have to make it. And it's only like 11 minutes
1:53:19
per. Hole and I got.
1:53:22
I got to keep moving, yeah. Do do you carry your own bags
1:53:25
or? Oh, I put the bags.
1:53:27
I put my bag on a cart on a. Drive cart and I just walk and
1:53:32
somebody, what you might say, caddy for me.
1:53:35
I end up with a little with a little contingent out.
1:53:37
There of two or three? Of assistant coaches or
1:53:41
athletes. I will tell you that here at
1:53:43
Wichita State right now we have got, I don't know, eight guys
1:53:47
and gals that are serious golfers, like pretty darn into
1:53:50
golf, really good golfers. And so they come out and they'll
1:53:55
kind of caddy for me and follow me around, and some of them will
1:53:58
play some holes with me. And it's fun having fun.
1:54:02
Fun. Yeah, I love that.
1:54:03
I love uniqueness. I love challenging.
1:54:05
Yourself. I, you know, I I'm so glad.
1:54:07
I think you said your name was Jenny, talked you off the 50,
1:54:09
Miller. I wish she would have talked you
1:54:11
off of the 30 miles. That's also crazy.
1:54:13
I love how you're a guy who's never done a marathon, but
1:54:15
you've done 30 and 35 miles. That's that doesn't exist in
1:54:19
this world. But of course it does with you.
1:54:21
All right. Well, wrap us up today.
1:54:24
You've been at Wichita State now for 24 years.
1:54:28
We're not rooting for. Actually I am rooting for
1:54:30
retirement. I think you deserve I I I I was
1:54:32
just talking to someone else about retirement, a coach.
1:54:34
And I was like you know, selfishly I say I want I never
1:54:37
want you to retire because I love having you in the in the
1:54:39
profession. But I also truly believe you
1:54:41
deserve to retire for your family for your own personal
1:54:44
sake, etcetera. However, that's not coming up
1:54:46
anytime in this season. So what's got you excited?
1:54:49
As you look forward to whether you you dictate what the future
1:54:53
looks like, whether it's this season, next season, three
1:54:56
seasons, what's got you excited about shocker track and field?
1:54:59
I'm still enjoying coaching these athletes.
1:55:02
I I. Love our athletes.
1:55:04
I love the team aspect of track and field.
1:55:07
I am not excited about a lot of different things that are
1:55:10
happening in college athletics right now.
1:55:13
That would be a whole another podcast.
1:55:15
But but I am excited about Wichita State our team in the
1:55:20
American Athletic Conference. It's a good conference.
1:55:23
I I love the coaches and the teams in our conference and I
1:55:26
enjoy getting around to the conference meets and and and so
1:55:31
and I will tell you that this you know the high jump has been
1:55:36
my lifelong love affair and and the multi events have been my
1:55:40
lifelong mistress and it's just been I truly have loved those
1:55:45
events and those are the events that I coach.
1:55:47
I help out with the hurdles on our on our staff but I am in
1:55:52
charge of the multi events and the high jump and I'm really
1:55:55
enjoying coaching those athletes and so I I it it gets me excited
1:56:01
to think about you know rolling on forward until I retire with
1:56:07
the athletes I'm coaching and others that we've already
1:56:09
recruited in those events and and all that.
1:56:12
So I'm, I'm, I'm really enjoying this.
1:56:15
And you know, here at Gill, you know, our CEO has a.
1:56:18
Famous saying, I talked about George Williams, famous saying.
1:56:21
So we have kind of adopted as my own mantra here.
1:56:23
Healthy things grow, things are growing.
1:56:25
At Wichita State, you mentioned the state meeting.
1:56:28
You know, when you're listening to this, you're probably
1:56:30
listening to this in May of 2024, April and May, we have a
1:56:35
bonus series that we're doing where we interview one coach
1:56:39
from every state to talk about their outdoor state meet.
1:56:41
And you might want to go back and listen to the Kansas State
1:56:43
meet 'cause it is a lot of tradition, a lot of history that
1:56:47
happens there, you guys. Cessna Stadium here is it's,
1:56:50
it's getting a redo, a much needed and deserved redo.
1:56:55
We're going to have a whole new complex there as well.
1:56:57
So healthy things gross that's that's got to have you kind of
1:57:00
excited I I hope that this project.
1:57:04
Is that they're going to? Do it in phases in order to make
1:57:07
sure that we're always ready every May for the state track
1:57:12
meet and and so I'm not sure how those phases are going to go.
1:57:16
I I hope that they go, you know, one year, you know, if it's a
1:57:21
three-year period of time that I'm looking forward to being a
1:57:23
coach in this facility, in our new facility for at least a
1:57:27
year. If it's a lot longer than that,
1:57:30
you know, if it takes a lot longer than that to raise all
1:57:33
the funds, so does you know what I mean?
1:57:35
Then I don't know if I'll ever get to coach in this new
1:57:37
facility. Maybe you just have to golf
1:57:39
more, keep it going. That's right.
1:57:43
Hundred hundred holes, baby. Let's go.
1:57:48
Well. Steve, thank you so much.
1:57:51
You know again you know this is not I've said this over and
1:57:54
over. It's not an easy podcast to be
1:57:55
on because this isn't a 20 minute podcast.
1:57:58
We get real deep here and I think you know you actually hit
1:58:00
the nail on the head here we could you know we're we're this
1:58:03
is about a two hour we could gone for six hours because you
1:58:05
are I I said it from the very beginning.
1:58:07
You're the king of stories, not because not only because you
1:58:10
live a lot of them, but you tell them so well.
1:58:13
So I'm just so grateful for you, had a blast.
1:58:16
You know, anytime I get to talk about my mentor Fred Dixon is
1:58:18
always, you know, just a that's a an amazing time.
1:58:21
We've got Harry Mirror on here as well.
1:58:22
And just, you know that that decathlon history is really,
1:58:25
it's really fascinating actually.
1:58:27
And you know, your history with Gary Pepin and Bob Timmons.
1:58:29
I mean, it's really just amazing.
1:58:32
I think there's a lot of lessons that are in there and so just
1:58:34
thankful for your time. It means a lot to me.
1:58:37
You're getting ready for conference and nationals and
1:58:39
regionals and and everything while trying to get a project
1:58:42
going and still running a program.
1:58:44
So, so grateful for your time. That means means the world to
1:58:46
me. Well, I want you to know that.
1:58:48
I really appreciate you doing this.
1:58:49
I think it's. Fabulous.
1:58:51
I think it's a wonderful service to the coaching community.
1:58:53
And and so I admire what you're doing a lot and I always love
1:58:58
seeing you when we get a chance at the national or at the
1:59:01
convention or wherever we track meets that we cross paths.
1:59:05
And so thank you for all that you do for the college track and
1:59:08
field. Absolutely you deserve it, man.
1:59:10
You deserve it. All right, everybody.
1:59:12
Thank you for. Being here really do appreciate
1:59:13
you again plugging in that these coaches deserve it.
1:59:16
I think this is another great example of a coach who what an
1:59:19
amazing history. I think this might be the first.
1:59:22
I think you can excuse my memory after 250 episodes, but this
1:59:26
might be the first coach on here that as a, you know, as young as
1:59:30
a fifth grader was like, Oh yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to
1:59:32
be a coach. And then lived it out.
1:59:34
I mean, we, you know, when I was in fifth grade, I said I want to
1:59:35
be an astronaut and I did not live that out.
1:59:38
Probably better that way for all of us here.
1:59:40
So just great to hear his story and think there was a lot of
1:59:42
less life lessons out there for you.
1:59:44
So join us next week. We'll do it all over again as
1:59:46
we're getting close to the NCAA championships in the
1:59:48
championship season. It's the best time of the year.
1:59:51
Thanks everybody. Have a great day if it goes to
1:59:55
appreciate. The coach.
1:59:56
The ones that point people most. Every season needs a voice of
1:59:59
reason speaking. The growth you got to prep for.
2:00:01
You carry the load, ice, coffee to the soul.
2:00:04
For those of us who stand to go proper handoff, to stay in the
2:00:07
zone with you packing for the road.
2:00:09
There's more than one way to go. Take notes.
2:00:11
That's paying. You're told it ain't practice.
2:00:13
If your purpose ain't clear, it can't happen to you.
2:00:15
Listen what both is. Can't mentor without a mentor.
2:00:19
Years of experience. You can reinvent those years.
2:00:21
Every plan's got a standard. You live up to and the price
2:00:24
sacrifice can you give up you. It's a choice and a fight not a
2:00:28
win or lose. It's not a ploy boy device.
2:00:30
Y'all can make more moves. It's not about how to It's all
2:00:33
about why you don't know till you know who you all decide
2:00:36
6,000,000 waste of time choose none.
2:00:38
So we all course finish line. The work ain't done So we learn
2:00:41
from the experts. We all got to put in the leg
2:00:44
work you athletics network. It's all about connections put
2:00:48
together for the profession. To every track coach could be
2:00:50
blessed.