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Jenny Woo-The Woman The Scene Doesn't See · Hold Your Ground

• joe: What's going on everybody? Welcome back to the next episode of Hold Your Ground, the podcast, where you get working class culture without all the bullshit. Last week we started with a part one into the Delve of Punk Rock and Skinhead subculture, the history of it, where it's at now, where where we're seeing it going, things like that. yeah, anyways, today we are continuing on with that. How's it going, boys? Luis: Going well. How about you? Copy: Been a good week joe: fuck. Copy: so far. joe: Right on. Good deal. Luis: No complaints? joe: So we have a pretty special guest today that we'll have Luis do an introduction here. Luis: We say Oi is about community struggle and staying true to our roots. Our guest today has lived that ethos on every continent. From small sweaty basement shows to massive festival stages, she has carved out her own path as a fierce independent voice in a male dominated scene. She's a prolific songwriter, a relentless tour warrior, and the force behind the Jenny Woo Oi Project. Please welcome to the microphone, the legendary Jenny Woo. Woo! Jenny: my gosh. I don't know if you guys can see it, but I'm blushing. thank you so much for the genuinely kind introduction. I'm really honored to be here on the show. Luis: Thanks for being here. joe: Yeah, we're we're elated to have you. Copy: Yeah, it this is gonna be a really nice thing to actually have a perspective instead of having three dudes try to speak on shit. joe: Word. Jenny: was actually really touched when you reached out to me about the show and the specific quest to seek different voices. And I thought that was really refreshing because as you might know, in our subculture there's really like very little effort to seek representation. And I just wanted to say that I really value that and I'm really grateful that you guys are doing this show and that you have honest and true intentions about being inclusive across the scene. So thank you so much for having me. Luis: Thank you. joe: Yeah. No, thank you for being here. And you know, so like Copy: Yeah, absolutely. joe: yeah, so with what you just said right there, that's kinda where we ended our show last time with our subculture not necessarily being inclusive. And you know, last last episode I had talked a bit about how I believe that, you know, punk rock and and skinhead subcultures are definitely the best of the alternative subcultures. as far as policing ourselves go. That by no means means that we've got it fucking perfect though, and I think that there's always room for improvement. And I think that when it comes to not only listening but uplifting women's voices in our scene, it needs to be done. And kind of where we left off last week, I wrote it down so I didn't forget. We ended our last episode with the in Skinhead is silent, but it stands for misogyny. And I just I'm curious about your your take on that. Jenny: So obviously the Skinhead subculture has been forever wrapped up with fascination with racism and also like a holy war against it. And I think that has to do with basically the history of the movement, which involves unfortunately a chapter that has sided with white supremacy. And of course that comes out of the you know relationship that Skinhead had with the National Front and BNP and still has that connotation for some with neo-Naziism today. So of course, a lot of people who are not of the white power persuasion would say, I want to be skinhead and I don't want to be identified as a Nazi. And so therefore we have to choose the logical extremity, which is anti-racism, and to be as anti-racist as possible. However, I mean I grew up in Canada and in the North American skinhead scene and also like a lot of the European skinhead scene that I've experienced. It does kind of tend to be like white dominated as well. So you have a lot of performative anti-racism that isn't really inclusive. It's just let's bash Nazis. And I'm wondering like how substantial that is in terms of actually fighting real, everyday, banal racism on a systemic level, right? So you have that like minor hypocrisy. And then we also have the fact that we want to do the right thing, which is to have a scene that fights for some kind of justice that has some kind of meaning that is also. it like long lasting and meaningful. And yet we kind of tend to cut out a lot of the people who would really benefit from the community and the values of the skinhead movement, right? So for example, we talk a lot about working class, which is great. But like there is a global working class which is the global south. And a lot of those folks are suffering from basic like lack of living conditions. And yet, you know, we talk very little about what are we doing about anti-poverty, right? And the same thing is when we talk about the skinhead movement in terms of skinheads and then skinhead girls, like, there's sports and then there's women's sports. So why do we have this internal I guess polarization? And why is it that like skinhead women since the beginning of the movement have kind of tended to be more about accessory as opposed to actual participation in a meaningful way? And I think that that's like indisputable. I mean, when you look at the majority of skinhead lineups and festivals, the majority of OIVENs, the majority of even participants in like straight up skinhead oi gigs, how many women do you see and why? Right. So I think that numbers kind of speak for itself. It's again not a very inclusive scene. And of course we all love it and we all want to be here and we all make it the best possible, but there's a huge gap between what it could be and what it is. And I think that we can all recognize that. joe: Absolutely. Absolutely. That was extremely well said. So then that raises a a question like how were you introduced to the scene? And what made you be like, yeah, this is home? Like this is this is this is fucking me? Jenny: So yeah, I grew up obviously like many neurodivergent people in like the in the world, just kind of feeling like I don't fit in and feeling like I have like a sort of low-key resentment and hate towards the system in general. And so, you know, you kind of dig into the punk scene and that's a little bit more accessible for, you know, millennials such as myself who grew up without the internet and who grew up without, you know, living in a big city. And so you got in through those gateway bands like Rancid and then you go deeper and you find like Billy Brig and then you follow all of the references and you get into like the exploited and you're like, fuck the system, live for today, fuck yeah. Copy: Yeah. Jenny: And then you're like, my God, wait a second. I don't wanna like just live for today. I wanna build a better tomorrow. I wanna have like, you know, values that speak to the person that will make me better. Right. So the skinhead scene, like I mean, when I first saw skinheads, it was like an all ages gig that I thought they were like people like cosplaying like senior citizens. You know, joe: Ha ha ha. Copy: Ha ha ha ha. Jenny: with the surprises and like all that. but then I was like, my God, but they also look so Copy: Let's create senior sister. Jenny: freaking cool, right? So I was like, let me let me talk to these guys. And I mean, getting into it, which was at that time like written like hard copy fanzines and like of course like the lore that was passed like ear to mouth, mouth to earn It was like these ideas of like internal strength, being a proud of who you are because of what you have accomplished, not what the world has like predicted that you would have. And also this idea of community, resilience and loyalty. I mean, those are fascinating values that we all want to live with. And I think that code spoke to me more than anything. And like, let's be honest, I mean, real skinheads, like you cannot look cooler than that. Like the fashion has something to do with it. I mean, it's just like you fall in love with that aesthetic and there's no going back. And on top of it, I mean, like the music, more than anything, like, you know, I think the first time I heard like Skinhead Anthems, King of the Jungle and all those songs, it's just like that raw energy, like that granular feeling of sand and iron in your mouth and like that total understanding of like the intersection between like violence, hate, and hope. Right. So I think that's basically it. And and once I discovered it, I mean like I just just can't quit it, you know. Could be toxic as hell that I'm still in this relationship. joe: Hell yeah. Luis: Sums Copy: I I gotta say that that cosplaying senior Luis: it up. Copy: citizens, that is gonna be something that I use. Thank you for that. I am definitely gonna use that in some fashion or way. joe: Y yeah, no, that's amazing. Luis: That made my part that made Jenny: No offense there, Lewis. Luis: my partner snort. She's she's over there listening, just snorted her coffee right up. joe: Ha ha ha. Copy: Cosplay. I lob I lost my shit. That was great. joe: Yeah. Well you guys have something you wanna ask? You want me to just keep going? Luis: Well, I'm th I I'm thinking here. Copy: Well go ahead, Louise. Luis: You said something earlier about skin birds being accessories and and and going along with that. Why do you think that that is? Jenny: So I think that you know, like why is there misogyny in general, right? And that's because there has always been this kind of organization in society where labor is organized such that the public sphere belongs to men and the private sphere belongs to women. So women are more in the domestic zone and are often like valued for how we look, how we cook, how we care, whereas men are often valued for power ideas. and creativity, right? So when you look at skinhead scene, which is based around violence, history, community, songwriting, and like the art of creating festivals and going to them, I mean, that falls more into like historically what you know men do, right? So I think that men started the skinhead scene, obviously if we look back into like the 70s and 80s, like the majority of those artists and the majority of those like catalytic players were men. And then you know itself reproduces, right? Like I mean, bros playing bands want to book their friends who are bros. And then women don't see women on stage. So they just kinda hang back and they play girlfriends, right? And a lot of women who try to go beyond that to contribute in some way that would be recognized as creative or going into the sphere of influence or power are often held to double standards and are often you know, criticized for things that men wouldn't get criticized on, for example, their weight, their appearance, their sexual lives, etc. So there's a double standard, there's like a high barrier of sexism. And then of course we see the imagery, right? Like whether you're looking at like altos, like skinhead covers or like Helen Avoy or like whatever. I mean, or the Herbert's covers. I mean, it's like there's a skinhead girl on the cover with erect nipples and giant breasts. And she's just always has the exact same body, but like they might have different faces. And there's no woman in the band. There's no like this is about women or this is including women. The woman in that space is an object of desire for the male gaze. So it's not really a an inclusive scene in that sense. joe: Which is wild because I mean, really, misogyny is an agent of white supremacy. not to get all TikTok lingo-y and shit like that, but it's it's legitimately Copy: Yeah. joe: true. If we look throughout other cultures in history, I mean, women played very important roles. It was pretty much the white Anglo fucking culture that had women as subservient. It's wild to see that take hold, especially in a subculture in a scene where, you know, anti racism and anti fascism and challenging the norm is the is the the core of it. And that's where, like I said in the beginning, I feel like, you know, we're good at policing ourselves, but that doesn't stop because we think we've got it right. There's always room for improvement and when we fucking know better, we do better, you know. Jenny: Yeah, I think Joe, you know, like a lot of my experiences in that domain have been the fact that like the skinhead scene like a very global scene, but it was also existing in like tight knit pockets in the world. And we all know the, you know, in our home communities, the crew and like that guy who is like the head of the crew, who makes all the decisions, who books the gigs, you know, those that whispered network of who are the cool bands, who are not the cool bands, what t shirts you should wear, you know, what what's lame, what's like quote unquote. cringe or whatever. And it kind of tends to be like the white men who decide. I mean, like if you look at like the majority of like oy bands that you could say quote unquote made it headliners, they're white men, right? And they want to choose people that are like them because that's what they think is good because they see themselves as good. And it's maybe a hidden prejudice or bias that we also like recreate the narrative again and again. Like I mean I'm guilty of being racist and sexist as well. I'm not perfect. I've also, you know, repeated the tropes that I have been fed my entire life. And it takes a long time to unlearn those things and like a long time to say, like, you know what? Actually, like I'm actually stand up for that person that everybody else is shitting on because I don't know them. And like I'm actually interested in what they have to say. And I think that the the biggest disservice that all of this does is that we filter out voices that could genuinely contribute. To this subculture in a way that we have never even imagined. joe: What? Luis: What keeps you going? What keeps you going? Jenny: So yeah, I've asked that myself because, you know, I mean, we all have those passions and those loves in our lives and like as we go through this life, we fall in love with the skinhead scene, for example, and and you carry on and you know, twenty some years into it you see people who've come and they've gone and they come back where they go and you also, you know, live through, for example, like physical violence, sexual violence, like harassment, like racism. You know, like I've had moments where I was just told, like, yeah, we're not gonna put you on this compilation, we're not gonna put you on this festival because like this guy doesn't like you. And it's like why? And he's Copy: Jesus. Jenny: like, yeah, 'cause thinks you're cringe. I'm like, Well, why? Like, you know what I mean? Like why? Just like, no, because you know, like you are like you're untalented and you only like suck dicks to be here and like, you know, the Down syndrome stuff and ho ho and you're like a joke. And it's like, Yeah, I mean, that stuff just kind of like is a low lone braid irritant that just defeats you through the years and kind of erodes your confidence. And yeah, sometimes I wonder like, why is it that I still write songs and I still play shows and still go out to shows as much as I possibly can. And I think that the only explanation for that is that I genuinely truly love it. And I genuinely, truly, truly believe that the young girl that I once was got so much out of this subculture. Friendships, travel an opportunity to like find people who empathize with me and who liked me not for what I could be but for who I actually was. And I think that I there must be some other girls like me in this world right now that could benefit the exact same way. And that's basically my mission to just maybe not for the entire world to become skin girls, but for the entire world to Copy: Mm. Jenny: just understand that like just because people say that you can't do something, you can. You know, it's just it's just a matter of resilience and it's a matter of putting things into perspective. And even though skinhead values are definitely a very esoteric thing, I definitely believe that perseverance will, determination and critics if like can benefit this world as a whole. So I carry on. Luis: mean I'm gonna steal from Joe right now. I know he's got it written down earlier, but we were talking about it yesterday and and to us and throughout this conversation, I gotta tell you, to me you're the embodiment of Skinhead. Right? That that you've got the self respect, the pride that you keep going regardless. thank you. Right? like like, you know, thank you 'cause you d Copy: And then not give a fuck. And and not giving a Jenny: that's really quite fun. Copy: fuck. Luis: You do inspire a generation of like like I have a queer youth who listens to you and you do inspire that whole younger generation. So and and and what it means to be skinhead in two thousand and twenty six is much different than what it meant in nineteen ninety. So thanks for keep pushing the boundaries. Sorry, Joe. Jenny: I I I really appreciate that. Thank you. And I will say like this is a really unique experience for me as well, because a lot of times when I get invited to do interviews and podcasts, interestingly enough, my the hosts are female. And I find that a lot of people who listen to my music or who promote music or like who feel like they are willing to talk to me kind of tend to be women. And as a result, you sort of get siloed into well. That's a chick band or like that's just a chick. And so it's really meaningful to have, you know, a show which is like, you know, three male hosts that are sincerely interested in what I have to say. So thank you. joe: Absolutely. Luis: Yeah, absolutely. It's it it's yeah, I mean, it's all about Joe says a lot. Like we all know each other in real life and kinda hang out. And Joe often reminds us all that if we all do a little, a lot gets done. That's kind of like our like Jenny: Yeah, yeah, that's a great work together, right? Copy: So I I got a quick question. I joe: Absolutely. Copy: mean, we've touched a lot and you d specifically have touched a lot on this. So I I I wanna give you a platform to what would you say to all the misogynistic fucking asshole dudes that are out there in the scene creating the the hostile and degrading manners of which women are treated in our scene. Jenny: I would just ask one question. What are you afraid of? You know, what are you afraid of? Because truly like the like patterns of bringing women down are so commonplace that many people don't even realize that it is what it is. It's misogyny, right? Like criticizing a woman's appearance, like bringing up her sexual history, or bringing up a question of whether she's even talented enough to be there. Or like those like first rate questions like why are you here? Who's your boyfriend? Or like, you know, what did she do? To get into that band or to get onto that stage. And all of that is deeply rooted in this idea that women are less, right? But we are valued because of what we mean to a man. And usually that means something like a domestic connection or a sexual connection. But a lot of the times that I've heard people talk about women in the skinhead scene or women on stage, the question is, who did she please to be there now? Right. And that's really sad because the fundamental premise is that a woman could never just be talented or motivated or intelligent enough on her own to value that space and that t time as any male would, right? And gender is always a part of it. and then you have to ask yourself why is it that there is this deeply rooted belief that women are less? And it has to relate with what Joe was saying. It's about hierarchy and power, right? So we kind of uphold this idea that women should be kind of shuffled more into like classic gender rules because we are afraid of sharing power. We're afraid of sharing a mic, we're afraid of sharing ideas because some of those ideas might topple the powers that be. And then, you know, who would I be or what would I have? But all of this is like deeply mistaken because this is based on like a finite scarcity mentality. Like there's only so many songs that can exist in the world. There are only so many bands that can exist. There's only so many Spotify playlists that can exist. When it actually creativity, community, aesthetic, style is charisma is infinite, right? So Copy: Right. Jenny: it's it's based on fear. It's based on nothing but fear. And so I would ask for anybody who is actually a misogynist to just think about what I am saying and ask themselves, why do I feel uncomfortable? And what am I afraid of? And confronting that would actually be a huge and tremendous act of courage. Copy: Fuck yeah. joe: So you know, Copy: Yeah. joe: I had a I had a question written out, the one that Luis was just talking about. I'm taking your line, even though that was you know, something we talked Copy: Son of a bitch. joe: about yesterday. But I would like to change that from being a question. No, I'm say it's not you didn't take my line, Luis, is what I was saying. Like it's something that we were just talking about, you know, I mean, but I I I will change that from a question to a fucking statement here. 'cause you kinda just answered the question that I actually had written of it, but what I had written down, Jenny, was this. It says, you have incredibly thick skin and are, in my opinion, the epitome of what it means to be a skinhead. You do your own thing regardless of what people think. you know, we we have mutual friends, you and I do. in the real life world. My brother Mike grew up right around where you did. You guys have friends that mutual friends that the both of you grew up with, although he doesn't necessarily know you in person, right? One thing that I will say out of everybody that I've talked to about you leading up to this episode that knows you has said that you're an amazing person. and that's fucking awesome, right? That that's that's awesome to to get that review from people who I hold dear. And I see the amount of criticism That you get on a regular basis online from a bunch of fucking super cool guy dorks. You know what I mean? And I I wanna point out that it's fucking wild to me that a woman who is doing her own thing and has made a name for herself in this subculture is criticized in the way that you are, right? Like you can Copy: Yeah. joe: not like your music, that's fine. That doesn't really equate to all the shit talking that I've seen. It's fucking wild to me, I guess, where I'm going with this. I see more criticism for Jenny Woo than I see for fucking Ian Stewart, who is the frontman Luis: Word. joe: of the fucking most infamous Nazi fu Nazi fucking Jenny: a hundred percent. Thank you, bro. Copy: Yeah. joe: band of our of our Copy: Yeah. joe: lifetimes. Right? Like it's fucking crazy to me. Luis: It's it it's weird and j Copy: What? Luis: and like Joe was we were talking about it the other day and Joe brought it up because the other day was the anniversary of Screwdriver's biggest hit, right? and that's that's and that's Copy: Yeah. Luis: why it came up, right? but just like he said, the thickness of your skin and the fact that you continue on despite it all, right? It is a is amazing to me again. Jenny: Yeah, I actually have a theory about that too, Joe, because I I was thinking about that the other day myself. And to my knowledge, you know, I have never sighed, I have never raped somebody, Copy: Mm-hmm. Jenny: I have never stolen somebody's gear, I have never, you know, curb stomped a kid or whatever. I mean, like, I'm probably not the best human being ever, but I'm certainly not in the category of evil. And I know for a fact that there are like headlining bands where, you know, these dudes are actual like People who have assaulted women or who have like Copy: Yeah. Jenny: actually been racist and continue to be so. and they're just kind of accepted. And it's like, well, fuck Jenny Wu, she's like the fucking worst. And it's like, okay, you might not like my music, but like, I mean, in terms of like a character reference, come on. I mean, like, we are like applauding people who are literal like rapists. And Copy: Yeah. joe: Word. Jenny: yet, and and so you have that. And then you also have people who are like, white supremacists like Ian Stewart. And my theory about this is that Ian Stewart, for example, is a kind of figure in the skinhead scene where he represents something which is white supremacy, but he also represents danger. And he also represents that secret feeling of just liking the first album, but also really liking when the when the snow fell or whatever. And then you know, it's kind of becomes like that whole thing, like we hate him, but we love him, but we hate him, but we love him, because like the skinhead scene is based on that like feeling of drama. But people respect, Copy: Fucking right. Jenny: people respect Ian. They people respect him because he first of all was non-threatening, right? He's a white male who is just like a white supremacist, but that doesn't threaten the people who are white in the scene, right? They're just like, man, we disagree with him, but he's not gonna do anything to me, right? That music doesn't hurt me spiritually. It doesn't affect my family. It doesn't affect the way that I feel about my family. Like, you know, that that feeling if you are a person of color that you know to be that deep-seated pain of racism, right? Like it's not affecting the people who are like, they're like the first album, you know? So they feel comfortable joe: Yeah. Jenny: with An Story and the scene, right? It's like it's kind of a joke, but kind of a secret pleasure. But you know, the skinhead scene wouldn't be what it is without screwdriver. And all of those fucking Copy: Fuck that. Jenny: bands like brutal attack and whatever. So they they don't criticize it, right? And you also have all of these rap bands that are still playing today that are, you know, like that are mildly accepted, Copy: Pantera. Jenny: right? Like and it's like, what the fuck? Luis: Agnostic front. Copy: Yeah. Luis: Like like Jenny: Yeah. Luis: no, there there there's a lot. Like it it's fucking thank you for pointing that out because there is. There's like sharps, there are sharps in the Midwest that use the N word. What the fuck? Right? Like like Jenny: Yeah, exactly. Like it's it's Copy: Yeah. Jenny: okay because they just decide that it's okay. However, you have like an Asian woman who dares to, you know, for example, like go out and get a record level and play a few gigs and like maybe write some songs for like bands like Evil Conduct or whatever. And it's like who the fuck does she think she is? And it's really upsetting for people because that challenges the norm. Like that actually affects the white man who's, you know. secretly collecting RAC records and who has those invisible suitcases as he walks down the street with his pit bulls and who is like, I feel threatened by this, right? Because if this can be for everybody, then it's not just for me. And that is why people hate it. And it's not even personal because like the majority of these people, they don't know me, right? I've even met people who shadowed me my whole life. And then they met me and they were like, you're pretty cool. Or like, I'm sorry, I was such a dick to you in two thousand seven. And Luis: Yeah. Jenny: it's like yeah, okay. Copy: I'm still gonna punch you in the fucking face, asshole. joe: Yeah. Jenny: Yeah, Luis: I I I Jenny: yeah. Luis: get that a lot myself too. yeah. So understandable. joe: Yeah, words. So like one of the things that I will say that I think touches on this perfectly, I say this all the time, like if there's fucking you know, if if there's three Nazis at a table and you go sit down and break bread, there's four Nazis at that fucking table. Like Copy: Fucking amen. Jenny: Yeah. joe: if you're gonna fucking claim to be anti-racist or a sharp or anything of that fucking nature, you have to actually live that shit, right? And that doesn't mean just saying I'm an anti-racist, like especially as a fucking white dude. Like that shit or a white person, you know what I mean? Like that takes fucking I said white dude 'cause I'm thinking about myself and the fucking shit that I do that I go you know, it takes work every single fucking day of Copy: Damn right. joe: confronting your own fucking biases on Why something makes you feel weird, even if it's subconsciously, you know what I mean? Like it's like you had said earlier, ask yourself why does this make you feel fucking less than or fucking weird at all? Jenny: Yes. Copy: Yeah. Jenny: I I I think that, you know, there were moments when I got the flack or the hate or you know, like I played shows and people like threw bottles at me or like, you know, you come out after the show and people are trying to jump Copy: Jesus Christ. Jenny: you or something, or like then all the internet stuff where it's like, We're gonna make memes about this person and like COVID patient zero, Jenny Woo flu or whatever, and it's like the problem is I'm a one person show, so all of that is like just directed at me. And like Jengu Copy: Right. Jenny: is my real name. So it's not like a persona or anything. And it it kind of got heavy for me like in a mental health way for a while when I was younger, because it's like, my God, maybe I am just like completely untalented and worthless and ugly and stupid and like I don't deserve to breathe the air that's in this world. However, I thought to myself, okay, I'm just gonna depersonalize this and take from the perspective of the fact that They don't know. Yeah, maybe my music's not good, but like come, half of the skinhead scene's music is terrible. And they don't say this shit about them, right? Copy: Ha ha joe: Right? Jenny: And then I was thinking, and also is bad music like the worst possible thing that a human can do to this planet? No. I mean like Copy: Can I interrupt real quick? I I think Jenny, you need to start looking at possible skinhead career of comedy for stand up comedy. Holy shit. Jenny: Yeah. Well, you know, that's a that's a great survival instinct, just putting it i into a smile. But yeah, I just depersonalized it a bit and then I thought to myself, okay, like if I were my friend and not myself, what would I say to myself? And I said, you know what, like I've written like twelve full length albums. I've written like songs for other bands that have gone on to stream millions, millions of streams. I've toured the world, I've made tons of friends. And I have my own family. I'm a mom and stuff. And like I just don't need to prove anything to anybody. I mean, like, I do what I want to do. And if people like it, they like it. If they don't like it, they don't like it. But I know who I am. And I know that sounds like a banal and like, you know, kind of often said thing that probably people say and say and say again until they actually believe it. But yeah, I mean, we have one life to live, so just why waste it on perhaps what small minded people might think? Because at the end of the day, How much of it truly how much of it is about the fact that I am untalented and ugly, and how much of it truly is the fact that I am an Asian woman who dares to take up space? joe: That's it right there. Luis: You know, how has being a mom changed your outlook on things? You mentioned being a mom there. and so I did kind of want to talk about that. How how how has being a mom changed your outlook on the world or has it? how has it changed your music or has it? yeah, how's that been for you? Jenny: So actually I I had a really interesting conversation with some people like a couple of weeks ago that I was talking with at a festival that I was playing. And they were saying, like, you know, like we don't like how you've become like political and you're making like videos about how women should be in the skinhead scene and like you're making like posts about bands with people of color just because they're black or just because they're Asian and like, why can't it just be about the music and I thought about it and I was like, you know what, like, listen, for me, being who I am, I have no choice but to be political because that is my existence, right? And now I'm at a point in my life story where I'm halfway through. I'm a middle aged woman, right? I don't want to spend the years that I have left being inauthentic and not using my voice for something that is my truth. And now I'm a mother. I have two children, and like anybody who's a parent out there would understand. That you would lay down every single thing that you have ever had in this life for a better life for your child. And when I watch my daughter go through this life, I feel the pain that she will feel as a as a young girl, as a woman going through this world, being consistently held to different standards, being consistently told in implicit or explicit ways that she cannot do things, being told that she's less, possibly being a victim of sexual violence. And I just think to myself, If any of these people, any of these critics, were to put themselves in my shoes or were a person like me, what else would they do but to fight? Right? And being a parent is a lot of different things, but for me, it is like a fire and it is an illuminator because I realize that this world isn't about me. I'm not the protagonist in the world story. And probably my children aren't gonna be either. But we are all humans and we are all living this life of love and of sacrifice. And if there is one thing that we can live and die for, it's just for the hope of a better world for what comes next. joe: You know, that's something Copy: Very well said. joe: that we've we've talked about as well as all of us are parents as well, you know what I mean? And that's kind of what has kept me going. There's been so many times where I just want to throw in the towel and be like you know, not on life, but just on fucking everything, be like, you know what, dude, fuck y'all. Do whatever you are gonna do. Like everybody's fucked. Right? But the fact Copy: Yeah. joe: that I have a 12-year-old daughter keeps me fighting for a better future for our children, not even just my children, but for our children. You know what I mean? And Jenny: Exactly. joe: we're s yeah, we're seeing this push and so many people like to isolate it to being In the United States with this weird right-wing fucking super misogynistic fucking and racist and fascist fucking mindset, but it's it's not a uniquely United States thing. Like, I mean, I travel all over the fucking world as well, you know what I mean? And it's it's something that we're seeing become more and more normalized again, all Copy: Yeah. joe: across the fucking world. And so it does. It takes a fucking a worldwide fight against this shit if we want any chance. And quite frankly, like being apolitical is a political stance. That's fucking that's some fence walkery bullshit and I've Copy: Yeah. You're a fence walker. Yeah. Jenny: Yeah. joe: never been about being a fence walker. So like I would like to say thank you as well for for staying in it because I know that it's you know it's been tough for you. I've seen I follow I followed you on the fucking social medias for quite some time, you know what I mean? And Luis: It yeah. joe: I did see a few months ago I guess when you were in the midst of moving that you were kind of talking about Leave if I if I remember it correctly, you were kind of talking about not necessarily leaving music altogether, but kind of stepping back a a bit out of the public eye. I remember seeing in one of your posts, something of that nature. and I appreciate that you are still doing your thing and still playing festivals and still in the fight and fucking making your voice be heard. Luis: mean yeah on honestly for me it's it's Yo, I really respect you. There's not a lot of people that we have on the podcast that gets more hate than I do. Right. because like my Copy: Ha ha ha. Luis: our city came out not only once but twice against me, like right. All the right wingers. Copy: Yeah. Luis: so to see people, you're an inspiration to me. If you can keep going, I can keep going. Right? Jenny: Yeah. Luis: Because that message is really, really important. And I mean, yeah, and also I I saw that you're I wanna kinda switch gears a little bit here for a second. Sorry guys. but I saw this morning or was it yesterday morning? I don't remember. but that you're doing a new album in Algiers. Jenny: Yeah, yeah. Well, so like just kind of to go back with what Joe was saying about stepping out of the public eye, you know, yes and no, because you get to that point in your life where you realize, okay, again, I I am what I am. Like I am halfway through, like I have fought for this for twenty some years. And whether it's true or not, like I definitely feel like my face has smashed up against that glass ceiling, right? Like I will never be a headlining act. I will never sell more than, you know, ten thousand records of a single album, right? And I'll never be put on like, you know, a major tour with a major band. And that could probably be for a lot of different reasons, but probably a lot of it does have to do with the fact that I'm a woman or that I'm I am who I am as a person, right? And that's just a fact. I played this huge festival this summer in Germany. And like as a person who's played for like twenty, three years, released like thirteen albums, you know, played the my ten thousand gigs plus or whatever, I'm gonna open up I'm opening up for bands that are now active for three years, right? And that could be for a lot of reasons and and and it's hard and it is what it is. And you know, like bands that I write music for are headlining, right? So the music itself isn't the question necessarily, it's who's behind the microphone. And You th you think about that a lot and you think like, okay, so perhaps, you know, it's time to recalibrate my dreams and be more realistic. But I still love the scene and I still truly, truly believe in the future of it, and I still love the music. So I thought, like, what can I do as a a woman in her 40s who's has a whole wealth of experience, but who has hit the barrier, right? And that answer that I came up with is continue to do what I love. So select the gigs and select the shows that I want to play with the bands I want to play with. Not for the glory, not for the visibility, not for the money, but just 'cause that's what I want to do. And the other part of it is strongly supporting the bands that I love to see. And whether that's by like helping them financially or promoting their music on socials or you know, writing songs for them or helping them with production techniques or whatever else or just sincerely rooting for their success in every single way, I'll do it. Because like, you know, it might not be me, but I would love more than anything to see a female band headline a skin head show once in my life. I would love that. And that win would be a win for me. And so I have kind of redirected myself and pivoted into, you know, producing for a lot of people, writing for a lot of people. creating you know demos and like pre-production stuff for bands. And yeah, it feels good. And I I also, you know, I think that advocating and talking about it like we're doing right now is still participating in the scene and still willing it to be something bigger, perhaps more expansive and perhaps perhaps more just. So the question is what was I doing here in Algeria? Because I'll tell you guys, I've been living here for about a month now. And there is a metalgeria scene, like a lot of metalheads and stuff, but there is like no skinhead scene that I've found so far. However, I I really wanted to keep kind of into that creative space. So I've been creating pre-production demos and like tracking some songs for other bands. So I've been working on that a lot while I'm here. Al although I will say like my Arab is really bad. My Arabic, so I think that like a lot of the things came out sorta weird so far, but it's a work in progress. joe: It's a really tough language. I speak a little bit of Copy: It is joe: Arabic as well. And it is a very tough language to learn, especially when you grow up English speaking, I feel like. yeah, it's hard with the especially with the enunciations. Copy: Well plus Yeah. You can get the yeah, I was just gonna say y it's like American English, we have so many different, you know, connotations behind like you could say fucking a sentence and it could be so many different things and people when they say it, you know, I don't know. I'm kinda sti don't know. Jenny: Yeah. No, no, it's it's yeah. Copy: Shut up. I lost my train of thought. I'm autistic, goddammit. Jenny: It's it's definitely a challenge, but I think the the bottom of the story is such that wherever I am, however old I get, and whatever chapter I live in my life, I I still want to contribute something creatively and you know, I guess something ethically and politically in whatever way I can to the thing that I love the most, which is the skinhead scene. And When we're talking about like what could we do better for our kids? And of course, a lot of that is deconstructing a lot of the things that we've been taught and trying to be a better person and like trying to put down our phones and trying to learn about how to cook a million different kinds of vegetables in ways that look like they're cheese or whatever. It's like, what do I know? I know the skinhead scene. Okay, if I want to target one thing that I can actually possibly make a difference in. It's gonna be in something that I know, something that's concrete and something that can be changed. So I'm gonna show my daughter that this is what I'm doing and hopefully she'll, you know, either join me or appreciate what I'm doing and and do like her own thing in her own way and shine. Copy: Well, I gotta say that I greatly appreciate you touching on that because bringing out the skinhead to the next generation is a very, I guess a topic that's kind of near and dear to me because I grew up, like you said, we grew up without the internet. So it was kind of like fucking winging it to try to figure out the scene, the ins and outs, what's appropriate, what's not. Well, here we are as, you know, old heads now. I hate saying it, but we fucking are. it's it's it for me it's kind of like our duty that we need to teach the younger generation the right way to act, the right way to treat people. And I pr I really appreciate that you're doing that with your daughter. And also that because of you know, yourself, I have a a a person that I can, you know, show my my partner's daughters who th they didn't even know about skinhead or skin bird or anything like that. And it's nice to be able to like Here you go. Check out Jenny Woo. She's a bad bad Bamba Jamma, you know? So it's really nice to see that even though you're getting shit on all the time like that, you're just saying, fuck it. And I applaud you for that because that does take a lot of fucking courage. And I just want you to know that I I very much appreciate your what you're doing for the scene and how you're trying to progress the scene and keep it going. joe: Well, aside from that too, like I I agree one hundred percent with what copy said, but I I wanna add to it with the fact that not only are you continuing on with it, but you have a wildly good attitude, you know what I mean? which is something where like I could see I could I I was really curious to see first off if you were even gonna write me back when I sent Copy: Mm-hmm. joe: out that first invitation and the message about the podcast thing, you know what I mean? And then looking into it as well, seeing that it's three fucking dipshits that are that are dudes. Like I I could have 100% seen you be like, I'm I'm good on this. Thanks though. You know what I mean? And the fact that you're you're still out there and still being kind and extending kindness into the world. Like I was talking with one of my mates in Australia about having you on, and they're like, that's fucking awesome. She's so rad. Like she sent congratulations when we had our baby and and just super fucking good, like wholesome, nice person. And that means the world to me. It's so easy to get jaded with everything that's going on in the world and to kinda not put up that wall and still have that that kind-hearted you know thing towards people is fucking amazing. Copy: Yeah. Luis: Yeah. It it really is. Jenny: Yeah, I I I mean, like you guys are so incredibly kind and I I appreciate that. But I will say that there are moments in, you know, my bathroom or whatever that I, you know, unveil the bitterness and resentment that I have towards the world, or that, you know, there are moments where, you know, I've complained to my booker or like complained to my friends where it's like, Man, why am I always the opening act? Or like, you know, like why do I get like twenty minutes and the next guy gets to play for forty five? Or like, you know, why am I getting paid like you know, a hundred and twenty bucks and the band right after me gets paid five thousand bucks. And it's like, you know, why? Just why? Right? And yeah, there's two ways you can go with that, which is just the road of bitterness, which will ultimately lead to defeat, right? Or to just say, you know what, it is what it is for right now. But if I don't do it, nothing will ever change. And I Copy: Right. Jenny: would much rather have many, many people write basic insults on my posts or like, you know, throw bottles at me when I walk through a festival ground or shout profanities when I get on stage. I would much rather they do it to me than to our kids or to whoever else might want to do this after. Cause I mean, if there's one thing I can do, it's take shit. Eat it. Copy: Yeah, it's just unfortunate that you're even having to fucking deal with it. Like I will say this to any of the dudes in the audience. I see that behavior in person, I'm personally gonna make you go to the fucking dentist. Jenny: I I joe: Work. Jenny: thank you for that because actually, like one of the biggest I guess feelings of sadness and I think traitorous feelings I've had is not necessarily the people who write this shit, right? Because I don't know them and like I will probably never meet them in my lifetime. But I have experienced so many people that I know who know me and that I wouldn't think are racist or sexist or anything like that, and they see this happen and do nothing. And like, I mean, for example, like and I'm gonna name names 'cause like, you know what, I'm I'm not a you know. Luis: Absolutely. No, Copy: Do it. Absolutely. Luis: no, no, no. We are a podcast that names names. We don't give a fuck here. So absolutely. Copy: Yeah, we we yeah, Jenny: Yeah. joe: Yeah. Copy: we pull zero punches 'cause we stand on our word and you Jenny: So yeah. Copy: are a stand on your word woman, so Luis: We don't give a fuck about likes here. Copy: Yeah. joe: All right, well let her let her talk her peas. Jenny: Yeah, well, you know what? Like I'm past the point of worried about career opportunities being lost. I haven't thought about this for a long time, but when COVID came around, the guy from Fuerza Brut, he I think his name is Beto, the singer, he put this post on my friend's wall, which is like, you guys better wash yourselves down because you might be contaminated from the virus from Jenny Wu fans. And it was like supposed to be funny and like it was supposed to be like, ha ha, whatever, like she's not gonna read this, or even if she does, she doesn't matter, you know. and it was like the beginning of the pandemic, and it's like everybody's afraid and everybody's, you know, unsure about what's happening. It's the time that we need kindness more than anything. And I was like, this is some dude who's not my friend, but he's adjacent to many of my friends. And out of nowhere, he puts on my friend, you know. Victor, the singer of Lion's Law, wall, this shitty statement that's basically racist. and then Copy: Absolutely is. Jenny: you know, you see all the people just like, like, like, like, like, and it's like, well, it's not like this is some anonymous thing. I mean, the skinhead scene, like as you mentioned, Joe, is pretty interconnected. Like we all basically know somebody who knows somebody. And it's like that long, long pause of silence. Where it's like, well, what do we do now? Cause he's a really cool guy and he sings in a really cool band. And he put this comment on this Copy: Fuck him. Jenny: other really cool guy's wall. And like, I mean it's a very basic and s like sort of small example, but I I will say that I wasn't so much hurt by what he said, but what by what many, many people didn't say, which is just that's racist and unnecessary. joe: Yeah. Copy: Well whatever that asshole's name is, fuck you. I I can't remember. I have a really bad I've been hit in the head a lot, so I don't remember really well. But fuck you. Copy says joe: Yeah. Copy: fuck you. joe: Word, but it it goes beyond like what Jenny was just saying. It goes beyond what that dude wrote. Like, yeah, that's fucked, right? But like that fucking Copy: Yeah. Absolutely. joe: silence afterwards, and that's what we see so often is the people's Luis: Silence is our friends. joe: fucking silence that because they don't want to they don't want they don't want to be that person. You know what I mean? That's I'm gonna call this out and then get oath. And I I I feel like So many people that they want to protect women, right? And I think that that gets confused with actually respecting women. Jenny: Amen. Yes, absolutely. joe: And yeah, you know, where it it's okay, well I'm just gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna step aside because I don't really see the harm and it's not an in-person thing. And even that's the thing people do that, like even when it's an in-person altercation or interaction, they generally tend to back off like I've seen it happen Copy: Yeah. joe: fucking firsthand, you know. I don't know, man. It's fucking it's just it's it's it's a weird behavior to me. I guess I've never had a problem with people fucking not liking me. I came into this subculture at a young age because I was an outcast from fucking society and I didn't fit in with people anyways, you know what I mean? And that's kinda how I found a home here. And I I've kinda alwa I've been that way in this subculture as well, you know what I mean? Like I just don't really fit in that great. I I tend to speak my fucking mind. And it always kind of amazes me when other people don't and they wanna be liked. And I I think that's why they don't, you know what I mean? I I I don't know. I think it I I I don't really know what to say there. I guess it's a weird it's a weird thing to me because as a skinhead I've been hated by fucking regular society for most of my life and by our own Copy: Ha ha ha. joe: fucking subculture for most of my life because fuck y'all anyways. You know what I mean? Like yeah, I don't know. Luis: I mean it's weird, but but but that's but those are our friends. That Copy: Right. Luis: silence, those are like like like like we all just said, we're all like five degrees of separation away from anybody here, right? Worldwide. And so that silence comes from people that we know. That silence comes from me, Jenny. Like I like I've seen that and I've scrolled past it and I'm really sorry for it. Like Jenny: Thank you. Luis: it y you know, that's that's fucked up of me and like it won't happen again. Copy: Yeah. Jenny: that's that's Luis: But Jenny: incredibly generous of you, thank you. And Copy: Well, it's the right thing joe: Well this kind of goes back to what I was Copy: to fucking do. joe: saying in the beginning there, you know, like when we know better, we do better, you know what I mean? And the only way to know better is to actually have these conversations with people who it affects, you know what I mean? And see, you know, in this case, your perspective on things and how they play out, Jenny. You know, that's yeah. That was the entire my goal for this podcast, you know, for this episode. Jenny: Well let me actually flip it if that's okay, because I want to ask you guys a question now. joe: Yeah. Jenny: so for example, like you guys have all been in the skinhead scene for a long time and like you've lived through the same era as me, like and of the nineties and the knots, and like that period of time where, you know, saying that you were being triggered or saying that that hurt your feelings was like, Well, I mean you're not tough enough to be here anyways, or like, you know, that kind of mentality that was going around back then and all the froshing and the, you know, cropping in of the fresh cuts and the extreme gatekeeping and all of that. And I mean, I find personally that a lot of people who have lived through that era of the skinhead scene either come out of it being the same person or being a different person, right? And I find that you guys are very much the different people, the people who are open to new voices, who are not closing a gate, but rather kicking the whole wall down. Right. You invited me on the show, and you are also very conscientious of like what this scene is and how it can be better, right? So I just want to ask each of you in your own term and your own words what your parkour was in that. And like what do you see the skinhead scene as now versus what it could be and why? You made that choice, right? So I guess we can go in alphabetical order. Sorry. Maybe you can start copy. joe: Yeah, whoever wants to go first. Copy: son of a bitch On the spot Luis: Good call. Copy: Well honestly the What drew me into the scene is I was much like everybody else was I was an outcast. And I grew up in Eugene, Oregon. So I got to deal with fucking, I don't know if if anybody if you've heard of him, Jenny, Jacob Lasky. He's a real fucking servile piece of shit, scumbag, bonehead out here. And I just knew that that was wrong. My stepfather was Native American and I got to see a different side of things as a white kid. And He instilled those, you know, moral compasses of fucking you can't be racist. Nobody's better than anybody. And that's something that I learned from him is we all have the same fucking body parts. I mean, shit. If I was dying and you had a kidney and we matched, your kidney could save my life. So it doesn't matter. That kind of shit. And then I started seeing the growth of the neo-Nazis and them completely just overriding and taking over. the scene here in America and I don't know how it was up in Canada during those times, but I'm pretty sure you probably had to deal with a lot of the same shit. And now what especially and I'll just say it, I came out of Portland. I was in a s in the scene there. And it is very gatekeepy. Very gatekeepy. certain in you know certain aspects of it, certain different people. Joe experienced it. people were trying to Bitch about lace code. And it's like, are joe: Ha ha ha. Copy: are you fucking kidding me? Like, one, when's Jenny: ne Copy: the last time you ever saw a properly dressed fucking bonehead? I'm gonna just say never. You've never seen it. Why? Because they look like shit and they don't know anything about being a skinhead. And what I love and what I am seeing, and I it absolutely needs to continue, is the dropping of the misogynistic bullshit that's going on because I've seen some badass fucking women that have jumped into some scraps and they are even tougher than most of the dudes I know. So that whole dichotomy that women can't fight, that's just outside the fucking the realm of things. but what I did like and what I the the changes that I am seeing is the inclusivity of the trans community and the trans birds that were there in Portland. before I left. I I I've been gone for about a year and a half now, so I don't know the ins and outs of what's happening there anymore. But seeing the growth going back from, you know, you look back at the nineties in New York and skinheads were queer bashing. And now you've got the progression where we're like, no, that shit's that shit's not right. And Joe's said it a whole bunch of times. When we know better, we do better. And I think it does take all of us To gut chuck ourselves, especially as white men. Like it is a very difficult thing to do to challenge what has basically been spoon fed to you your entire fucking life. You know, Americans and how we took over the Native Americans and how they educate us on that kind of shit. You have to like educate yourself and you have to face the fact that when POC and queer community say all white men, well, yeah. It is because unless you're fucking actually standing up to these assholes as a white man, because we're the ones that have the voice. And other white men need to realize that is we need to be that sounding board for the other communities that are marginalized. But in so doing so, that means shutting the fuck up and listening and asking what these communities need. Jenny: I love that. it takes an incredible character to question oneself and one's place, especially when, you know, we might have to question our own power in this world. Like I I really respect that copy. Like that's that is true, true intelligence and true power. Like thank you. Copy: I appreciate that. Jenny: And and what about you, Joe? joe: So J can can you I've been hit in the head a lot. Can you ask the question one more time so that I well, I'm serious, right? Just so I g I Jenny: Yeah. So yeah. Copy: No, I know. joe: know exactly what you what you're wanting from me. Jenny: Basically, we all grew up with skin head meaning this tough, shaved head, not being cringe, being a bro, and being tougher than everybody else, which usually means ripping other people down and being a gatekeeper. And yet I see that you've come from the same place as me and grown up in that same path, and you chose otherwise, which is I want to expand this, I want to grow this, and I want to include voices. And so I'm just kind of interested, like. How did you become so different within joe: Okay. Jenny: a very different scene, right? joe: Yeah, I gotcha. Okay. so I wasn't always this way, right? I was that typical fucking misogynistic piece of shit, and I continue to be a piece of shit. But I'm a piece of shit that tries to make the world and our subculture better every day in any way that I can. And I honestly believe that why I had this fucking flip flop was having a daughter. To be honest with you. And watching how people view and see my daughter on a regular basis. And it's fucked up of me that I didn't get there before that. You know what I mean? it really is. But it is what it is. so having my daughter, she's 12 years old now, and I remember from the very beginning, with the way that that people even talk about having a daughter. You know what I mean? It's you gotta be watching out for this. And I'm like, well I don't really have to be watching out for anything. Why don't you get your little fucking nappy fucking handed piece of shit son to not be a shithead? You know what I mean? Copy: Yep. joe: So I guess that that kinda goes into the misogyny side of things. But the tough guy shit and all that, like I've never like I don't know. I'm not I'm not so much about fucking breaking other people down and and those kind of things. Like if we got a fucking beef dope, dude, we can handle that shit in person, right? we can scrap it out, right? So I and I still fall into that category. I'm very toxic in the in that that sense where like I'm still very much like, all right, cool, let's fucking chuck putassos about it and get it over with and that's that. Luis: Not you. Shit. Copy: Yeah. joe: You know? And as far as going like breaking people down and this, that and the other, like it's just not my it's not my jam it never has been i i i tend to live with with the thing of you know as we often say here like i want you to eat it just might not be on my fucking table So that that's kinda how I feel about about that. Even prior to having a child, it was okay, cool, we got you know, we got beef, like I'm not gonna sit here and talk about it fucking for eighteen days and this, that and the other, be on the Copy: On the internet. Yeah. joe: internet now, you know. It just doesn't make fucking sense to me. yeah, I hope that made sense. Like I said, I've been hit in the head a lot. So sometimes I just talk and I get sidetracked in my own brain. but that that Copy: We're all touched by a little bit of the tism. joe: I guess I guess at the end of the day, like that is why I fucking made a change. You know what I mean? I I feel like We've said on here time and time again, it's a lot when we all do a little and I'm not gonna change the fucking world. I'm not gonna change skinhead by myself, but if we all fucking chip in a little bit, we can make the changes that need to happen. And so you I know one of the questions you had asked too, and my brain just went back to it, was the difference between the scene then and now. you know, we've watched this scene become much more progressive over the years. You know what I mean? It was fucking, you know, 30 years ago. You had people that were anti-racists and all about fucking somewhat of inclusion, I guess, that would go packy bashing and queer bashing. You know what I mean? And I'm doing air quotes when I say that, because that in itself is a fucking racist term, right? But Copy: Well yeah, they have the whole fucking song about it too. joe: there yeah, there it was just a fucking accepted thing, right? And it's it's not anymore because It's fucking wrong, right? So the way that we treat people currently in the subculture, it's still fucking wrong and we need to fucking be better about it. and yeah, I think, you know, like I said, just having having a child, especially a a female child, it really opened my eyes to a lot of things of of how women are treated in the world, much less the fucking subculture. I don't know. Jenny: that yeah I think that as as you become a parent like that feeling of empathy expands more than you could ever even imagine you know like I don't know about you guys but when I became a parent I just cried at everything. It was like, you know, my God, watching Ice Age I've cried. joe: W a hundred fucking percent I got all fucking teary eyed the other night. My wife was like, knock it off. What the fuck's wrong with you? You know what I mean? We're at my at my daughter's volleyball game, and they won and it was the first game of the season. And so she's in eighth grade, yeah? The last year of of middle school for her. And all of the team from the year before that's now in high school or secondary school came out to watch them play and they won and then they all lined the court to fucking cheer for and were given fives and this, that and the other and it was just such a heartwarming, cool fucking thing. These kids are in high school now. They don't need to be back at the and I'm sitting there all my wife's like, dude, what the fuck is wrong Copy: Yeah. joe: with you, man? Knocking off, I'm like, I don't know. It's fucking whatever. Jenny: Joe, that's like a superpower, right? Because our whole lives, we live it just as ourselves, right? But that capacity to actually feel another person's pain or to feel their joy or to see their challenges as your own, that is what allows us to step outside of ourselves and to truly experience humanity from a a more global perspective, right? So that that's an amazing story. And and and what about you, Louis? Copy: Yeah, you're on the spot now, jerky. joe: Mm-hmm. Luis: Fuck. Can you kinda repeat the question again? I I r I remember, but I too have been punched in the head a lot and I smoke a lot of weed, so Jenny: Totally okay. I guess it's like because for example, like right now, where you guys are at in the world, like you could claim being like Joe Hawkins. You could say, like, I am the king of the skins. I have been here for so long, I know what's what. I can school the kids on what they should do and what they should be. And if they don't meet my standard, I could say that they don't belong in this scene. And you could be the gatekeeper the way that we were probably gatekeeped, but you are not. You are a person who says yes. I want to learn more. I want to do more. And I just wonder like what made you that way? Because there are so so many times in our lives where it's just easier to like shit on someone or like say the same thing, even though we might not think it. And I just find you guys like incredibly refreshing. Luis: Thank you. I've always Copy: Appreciate it. Luis: been an outsider. I I grew up with the name Luis in a w in Portland, Oregon, right? In in the eighties. when people when the name Lewis was a big nerd on Revenge of the Nerds and people couldn't say my name without saying Louise, right? Like, so I've always been odd and I've always been weird. and the outsider. for me when I saw Skinhead, it was the fashion. there was nobody that looked cooler. Right? I mean, look how cool I look as an old man. This is awesome that I can look this rad. Copy: Hey yeah, you're not Jenny: You're not even cosplaying anymore, it's just real. Copy: I was just gonna say that Luis: Right? So but so and I've always been like I've always played sports and I'm really into sports as the boys know and stuff. and I thought I you know I have I I I was a monk for a while and lived in India and I thought I was super enlightened but I wasn't right like when when you're in the monasteries the way that renounced talk about women it's just as g it's it's any locker room, right? And then it it's by you're lucky enough to meet some of the older heads that aren't gatekeepy and teach you the right way to go about doing things. You y you know what I'm saying? Like I live in a community where my boys there there's a standard there. Like these two dudes, if if I don't do the right thing, they're they will come show up at my house and it'll be a conversation, right? And we and we all hold each other to standards like that way. And I guess it comes by wanting to do better and be better so you put yourself around people. that want to do better and be better and you try to go for that standard because my standard's pretty right. It's pretty low. Like I like I like yeah, I think that, you know, am I more enlightened than the average guy? Yeah, but I'm also still guilty of like locker room talk, right? And Jenny: Mm. Luis: and not e equating the two. So you you re when you realize that, like Joe said, when you realize how much you suck, you want to do better. And for me, my journey into monkhood was really a question of wanting to be better and to do better. Right. I've always that's that's my goal. However Jenny: Mm-hmm. Luis: whatever it is. So to do better today than I did yesterday. So yeah, I hope that answers your question. If not, well I'm sorry. Jenny: No, I love it. honestly, Copy: Fuck. Jenny: like I find that people who kind of age inside the skinhead scene sort of have a tendency to say, like, I know what it is, and I only like the bands that I like. And all of those people who are like so woke, I don't like them, and they are like don't even know what they're talking about or whatever. I I find the most refreshing people to be the ones who realize that life is just for learning, that we never know the whole story and that the best is yet to come. And I have so much left to learn. I mean, we've been through a lot of stuff, and sometimes I wonder, like, wow, I'm I'm a woman in my 40s, and like, what do I have left to contribute to a youth subculture? Right. And then I realize the best thing, which is that I have just to learn from it. I have a connection with so many other people on this planet, so many young people. And I have this window of opportunity from which I can be with them and learn from them. And I truly believe. That it will be better. Luis: Right, so my goal in my life is to be like my uncle Linval, right? Linval Golding is the most amazing person. I don't know if you've ever met him, but he is the most amazing person in the world. And that's and he he's embracing of everybody, right? You talk about like Gatekeepy, that dude is not like fucking old fuckface Keith from the circle jerks, right? Like this dude is like, Copy: Ha ha ha. joe: Ha ha. Luis: fuck that guy, dude. That guy's a piece of shit. And if he's looking anyway, sorry. I I got feelings about him, okay? joe: Alright, alright. Get back on topic here. Come on. I can tell. Copy: Yeah. Luis: I I I do, dude, because you know what? I've seen him fuck off his fans. Well, I'll t okay. All right, all right, all right. Anyway, joe: Alright, alright, alright, let's get back to fucking Linval being inclusive. Copy: All right. Luis: I wanna be like Linball, who's different, who's who is Inclusive of everybody, right? He he's lovely to everyone, he makes time for everyone. And and and all he wants to do, and he's 77 years old now, and this dude walks around Jamaica and going up to people and being like, How what do you need? How can I make your life better? Like two individuals, that's what I want to be like. joe: I will say too, being an older person like Linval is he is wildly sharp and it's super fun to listen to him tell stories. And I I really like that aspect of this too, of telling stories of our past, right? Like so we were having a conversation with Linval, and I was like, you know, the only time that I ever got to see the specials, I happened to be walking by and you guys I I saw you and fucking Terry and I was like, What the fuck is going on here? And the specialist Copy: Yeah. joe: put on a surprise show in the parking lot of a record store in California. And like Jenny: crazy. joe: I just happened to be walking by. I was like, Well, this is Kismet, Copy: Fuck. joe: you know what I mean? So and then that just set him off on a whole fucking series of stories. Like, I remember that and here's fucking an hour worth of talking about it, you know. I mean it's really cool to be that older person even though we're not to that stage yet. But it's cool to be that older person and be able to talk with the younger generation about how things were because there is a lot of misconception, especially with the internet being what it is today. It's real easy to get the get the wrong idea of what has happened in the fucking past. Right? So Copy: Right. joe: it's nice to be kind of a living history to tell them. And that's one of the things that we try to do with this podcast too as we're moving forward. is to have those older those older cats just talk about their experience in this subculture. So like tomorrow we've got Russell Payne from The Oppressed coming Jenny: Amazing. joe: on to talk. Yeah. Luis: Russell, he's a great guy, right? He's got great stories. joe: Yeah. Luis: And and you know, I think the thing about Lindbull that moves me personally is that I've got friends that have been stabbed. Joe, others. right? Like like but but but but but but joe: Thanks, bud. Copy: Thanks for putting this business out there. Luis: this man got stabbed in his hometown, right? In the neck and woke up And was like, we'll tell you that he the first thing he heard when he woke up is the nurses being like, I don't think he's gonna pull through. Right? And to to be the victim of that kind of crime because of the color of your skin. And all he like, like, like he's he's like Terry now. All he wants to do is he says, love, love, love, right? Like that's all this man wants to give to everyone, right? And to see Where his father came from on the Windrush and where he's come from and how his son is now a doctor and that we are potentially going backwards now is horrifying. And he's still but Jenny: Yeah. Luis: but he still love love love and that's what I want to be. And I just to answer the second part of your question really fast, I think in the year of our Lord 2026, it's much more awesome, like in encompassing what it means to be skinhead now than it was in nineteen ninety when Jenny: Yeah. Luis: I was eighteen years old. So and I think that's super Jenny: So I I'll Luis: cool. Jenny: we'll like you know in this narrative of skinhead stories and the collective memories and skinhead history, which I love and I'm a a geek on to, I maybe we'll like end our beautiful chat. And I would suggest if you guys have time just to like hang out for a few minutes after it would be really cool to just talk off the record. But I'll end it on like, you know, a story that I heard from the one and only great Mickey Fitz. So I I met him a few times and I had like the honor of playing with the business on a couple of occasions before he passed away. And I was just asking him, you know, like what is your feel on the skinhead scene today? As you know, one of the legends. And he told me, like, I think this was maybe 2012, 2013, he said, the skinhead scene is better now than it's ever been before. Because I get to travel because I get to see people that are not like me, because I get to find something in common with people who've been on the other side of the world and growing up and playing in the eighties or the nineties. You would have never imagined that. And there is opportunity. And he told me, like, girl, you better believe me that when people romanticize the past, it is because they are at a lack for what's now. He said, Never stop growing. And that has stuck with me since then. because again, he was a man that could have been at the top of his game and just shat on everybody else and like, you know, have claimed that that old nostalgia, I was there at the beginning and I'm better than you. But he had that expansive mindset to say, like, welcome to the real world. And it's actually gonna be really nice. So I I want to thank you guys so much for having me on the show and for sharing the PMA and also for being together in. Just understanding that we maybe live some stuff we don't know everything, but we're open for what's to come. Luis: Thank you so much joe: Thank you so. Luis: for being here and I hope you Copy: Yeah. Luis: come back soon. Jenny: Thanks. And again, if you guys have time up the recording just to like hang out for a couple of minutes, that would be awesome. Copy: yeah. Luis: Absolutely. To everybody joe: for sure. For sure. Luis: else, listen, don't listen, you know, do all the things, go to the website, and later. joe: Yeah. Copy: Yeah. Go fuck yourselves. joe: This has been Hold Your Ground with Jenny Woo. Deuces.