Latest / WoT Spoilers / Distinctions - Towers of Midnight prologue pt1 - EP544

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Distinctions - Towers of Midnight prologue pt1 - EP544 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Weed of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Before we get started, I do want to just throw
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: a little plug in at the top of this episode
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: for my other podcasts, used to Sew and Autistic Stuff
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: for Autistic People. I talked about them a lot in
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: the Tangents episode, but I know from the download numbers
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: that a lot of you people don't like to listen
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: to the Tangents episode. And that's fine, that's super valid.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: But I just want to let you all know that
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I have a new podcast called Autistic Stuff for Autistic
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: People and it's really cool and you can listen to
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: me and other autistic coaches talk about life, the universe
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: and everything autistically. Also, I still have used to sew
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: going with my mom about sewing stuff, and yeah, you
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: can check this out. Other than that, I think our
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: first order of business today as we start a new
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: book is Patreons.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: Patreons over the last let's see March ish was the
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: last time we thank Patreons. I want to say March sixth,
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: So we are a couple of months in. I can
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: do the math seven minus three four more months, which
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: seems to be and that does seem to be our
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: normal pace. We seem to jump on patreons every season
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: or so quarterly our quarterly thank you. There's five people
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: we have to thank today. Really appreciate those five people
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: for stepping up and becoming new patrons in the last
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: quarter yeah.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Last season of time. We will start with Travis Mills,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: thank you very much.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: And then we have Adam Thank you.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Next we have zoom In make sure I'm getting these
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: vowels correct, Trent romreel, rom reel, Trent, thank you.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: I mean maybe if you wanted to go rom reel,
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: I think you could get away with that, sure. And
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: then we have Kevin Wallbank, Thank you, Kevin, thank you.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: And last but not least, Michael Molina, thank you very much.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: So thanks to those five people who've joined us over
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: the last couple of months. Really appreciate the folks again,
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: the new folks, but always the people who continue to
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: give month after month, who started many many, many many
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: years ago on our Patreon and keep contributing. You know,
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: you guys really do keep us coming back every week.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: So thank you so much.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: And also thank you to everyone who has enough boundaries
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: with themselves to realize when they need to pull back
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: a little bit and not support us anymore for a while, Like,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: we love the fact that you were here for a while.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: It's super great. We're not mad at you for having
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: to leave. I see the exit surveys in Patreon being like,
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, and like it's okay, we totally get it, Like,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: you gotta do what you gotta do. We appreciate your support,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: however long or short it is. But you know, of course,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: we're always extra excited about the new people and extra
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: grateful to the people who are still here.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, once you're Patreon, you're always a Patreon. I don't
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: care if you've stopped donating right, like, you've achieved that status.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Well, unless you've left because you're mad about me joining,
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: in which case you may in fact leave your Patreon
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: status at the door. That's fine.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: I assume none of those people are currently listening. It's
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: been a minute, I.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Would assume, so. Also, I don't know. Every now and
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: then I'll go onto our social media and see comments
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: from people within the last few months being like boo,
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, why are you still here? If that's
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: how you feel, I don't get it.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: I feel like they have to discover the podcast recently
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: and then binged up to that point and then made
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: that discovery. Right, But it's like, did you not listen
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: to a newer episode?
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: I don't understand people's podcast listening habits sometimes.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Me either, me either. But I enjoy making this podcast.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, and I enjoy that some people do listen
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: to it and some people continue to listen to it.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: And you know, I mean, even at wat Con, the
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: number of people that came up to me and said,
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: you know, I really like what you're doing. I like
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: that you're creating this sort of archive of content recapp
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: us at I was like, it's great because if I
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: if I need to, you know, do some research into
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: an episode, it's really nice that I can just pull
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: or into a chapter. Specifically, I can pull up your
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: episode and kind of listen to it while I'm just
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: doing other things, and that gets me in the headspace.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: But with all of the context in Oh.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm paraphrasing a little bit.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I love the idea that we're part of
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: the research materials that other content creators can draw on
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: to like get into their space.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: That's amazing because I feel like there's like the levels
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: of it. There's like you go to the wiki, right,
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: and the wiki has some some opinions. You go to
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: the encyclopedia wat Encyclopedia WATT is just the facts, ma'am.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: You know, I think that's great. But then there's just
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: like opinions and ideas, and we I think we synergize,
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: to use a corporate word, a bunch of different content
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: and material that we've over the years and the cons
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: we've gone to and the people we've talked to, and
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: it comes together sometimes in really wacky theories. And I've
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: also read comments that they're like, you guys, have your
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: theories are too fucking wacky. I'm sick of it. Stick
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: to the books, which is totally fair. I've definitely come
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: up with some crazy nonsensical theories. But I think that's
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: the fun of it, is, like you're not just if
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: we were just reciting the facts, you know, I just
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: go to WAT wiki and start reading off the entries.
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: That's not what we're doing. We're definitely doing color commentary
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: and trying to figure out what happens. And I feel
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: like we've made some good discoveries along the way. So absolutely, well,
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: I've got to read in this intro, the prologue to
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: the prologue, the sorry, the epitaph to the prologue, I
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: think is what it is.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was reading that being like, there's literally
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: nothing to do here except read the whole thing, right,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: simply the only choice that one has.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: So the only thing I want to say about this
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: this introduction is to remember again that translation in this
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: case is not translating one language to another. It's the
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: geometry definition of translation. Right. If you look at a
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: solid object, it can be rotated, it can be flipped,
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: or it can be translated, and that's the moving it
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: from one place to the other. So the book of
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: translation is always I always after I didn't realize this
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: the first like one hundred times I read The Wheel
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: of Time, even though I'm like into math and shit,
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: and so the first time I realized, oh, translation like
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: moving things.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I always knew that it was some sort of
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: interdimensional transportation reference, Like I got that from the first,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: But I didn't learn about translation as like a mathy
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: concept until I took mineralogy, because in that you have
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: to understand how crystals can exist in three dimensions and
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: build in various dimensions, and how that makes different macroscale
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: crystal shapes and stuff. And then I had to learn
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: about translation and do a bunch of basically puzzle games
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: to try to learn how the different rotation or mirroring
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: or translating works. And I was not very good at it.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Translation in particular really bound my brain up hard, and
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: I didn't do super well in that unit, but most
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: people did not do well in that unit. And then
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: we all just moved on to hand sample identification and
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: that was the bulk of the class. But the first
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: month was just us all really breaking our brains on
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: trying to intuitively understand that so that way we could
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: understand crystal growth and other things to do with how
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: rocks form.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: No, and I mean, linear algebra and all that kind
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: of stuff has a lot of translation in it when
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: you're getting into like you're translating vectors and doing stuff
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: like that. So anyone who's into physics and math, which
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: Robert Jordan clearly was, would understand the word translation to
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: mean a movement from one place to another, not necessarily
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: a translation of languages. I mean, I'm sure he understood
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: both concepts. The man's not stupid.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: No, he didn't understand how words. That's why he wrote
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: a million word book series.
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm just gonna do this in my best
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: loyal voice. It soon became obvious, even within the Steedding,
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: that the pattern was growing frail. The sky darkened, Our
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: dead appeared standing in the rings, outside the borders of
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: the steedding, looking in most troublingly. Trees fell ill, and
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: no song would heal them. It was in this time
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: of sorrows that I stepped up to the great stump.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: At first I was.
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: Forbidden, but my mother Corvrille demanded that I have my chance.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: I do not know what smrked her change of heart,
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: as she herself had argued quite decisively for the opposing side.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: My hands shook. I would be the last speaker, and
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: most seemed to have already made up the minds to
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: open than the book of translation. They considered me an afterthought,
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: and I knew that unless I spoke, true humanity would
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: be left alone to face the shadow. In that moment,
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: my nervousness fled. I felt only a stillness, a calm
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: sense of purpose. I opened my mouth and I began
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: to speak from the dragon reborn by Loyal, son of Arn't,
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: son of holland a stetting shang Tai.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Did you like it? Just listen to the audiobook of
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: this recently, because I swear that was like a pitch
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: perfect Michael Kramer impression.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: I just went to Watkhon and listened to Michael Kramer
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: in person do a bunch of readings.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it shows because I swear that was the
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: same padence and emphasis as he does in the audiobook.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Like I could predict where you were going to do different,
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Like like I knew how that was going to come
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: out because I've heard that.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's my best Michael Grahamer doing Loyal impression
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: that I've got, right.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: I think that might be the best one you've ever done. Frankly,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: and a good clean read too, thank you.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, one little stumble there in the beginning. I
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: find doing voices so much easier than reading in my
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: normal voice, like doing a fane, doing a mad voice,
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: doing a Loyal Like there's something about it that slows
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: me down and makes me actually pronounce the words. When
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to read my own voice, it's very very
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: difficult for me.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: You just want to rush through it and get it
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: over with.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. One hundred percent fascin it. You have to
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: put on a narrator voice right to do the narration,
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: and that's a whole different thing. I don't have a
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: good narrator.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Voice yet, but you could workshop your way into that
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: and have it not feel like your own voice in
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: the same way. You could put the work in to
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: build that mental architecture. Not that you have to, but
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: you could.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: No, maybe someday, you know, when I eventually start doing
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: audiobooks for money, because II is not going to take
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: that away from us any time soon.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Well, it's not going to take good stuff away from us.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: It's just going to really clutter the field with shit.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: Eventually people will realize that artisanal is the only way
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: to do it, but that is going to take a while.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: And let's be honest, if we really want to get
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: good at narrating audiobooks, we've got to start with the smut.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is how the pyramid is shaped.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: It's ok reading did Yeah?
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: No, I've heard that from multiple sources that there's a
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: lot of it and very few people willing to do it.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: So if you want to get a nice, fat resume,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: you have no lack of choices of stuff to do
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: that no one.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: Else is doing, and paid practice really and paid.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like the romance authors are. Yeah they want audio books. Yeah,
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: they they want audio books, but no one wants to
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: do smut.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: And and they write it so fast it's hard to
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: keep up with the production, I think as well.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Truly, truly, I knew nothing really about publishing it all
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: until I met Brie. And Brie is a self published
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: romance author with like twenty years of experience, And I
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: learned so much about the romance writing world. And yet
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: the pace that they put out at apparently they're running
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: circles around every.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: Other genre, genre.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: Genre genre either way. I have heard it so.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: Many Okay, I did not know that was an alternative
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: way to say it.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: That's how my dad says it's music of ficionado's so.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, no, that's that's new to me. But I
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: can totally understand that that's another way to pronounce it.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: I've literally seen it spelled both ways.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: Really very yeah.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, I mean I'm also a terrible speller, so
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: I might have just been misreading it.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: I probably assumed they were all misspellings.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean that what I'm what I'm saying
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: is that there could be an iterative process where the
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: error is creeping in and propagating, and and I'm not
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: a good filter for these things. I just pass things long.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: I don't critically think about the words I'm saying. The
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: fuck were we talking about.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: The introduction and the things of interest inside of it?
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: That's not what we were talking about. But let's return
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: to that, because we're.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: Supposed to be supposed to be talking about.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, a couple of things to un look into here,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: the dead standing, the ogear, dead standing in rings. I
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: remember us being ninety nine percent sure that that's something
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: that happened. Here we go, here we go, this is
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: this is where that happened. It's not in the books proper.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: It's in this opening opening section of a book, but
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: you know there it is. I think that what sparked
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Coviral's change of heart was the part where right as
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: she was thinking that Loyle had made a good point,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: there was a massive trollic attack on the manor house
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: that they were staying. And I think that's what changed
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Corel's mind.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: I also don't forget Corverl thinks they should stay. She's
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: arguing the opposite well, because you know, she doesn't, she's
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: not arguing what she believes, and she's like, actually, I
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: was going to.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Ask you if that was what was actually happening, because
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: I recalled that from from somewhere that like, yeah, she
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: thought that. Maybe she even says that to him later,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: but apparently it doesn't make it into his memoir if
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: she did.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: I think what sparked her change of heart was what
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: we saw earlier, which was him giving that passion speech
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: and her being like not bad, not bad, you.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Know, like right, and then there's a trilloc attack to
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: put a bow on that cake, Like yeah, I'm pretty
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: sure that, like your delivery on the precipice of a
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: trillic attack was what convinced her. And also, yeah, the
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: idea that she was arguing against it to prove the
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: point that it needed to be done, which is very
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: O gear logic in my mind, that's even worse than
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: ideal humor. That's O gear logic.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: And also how badass right, like they were going to leave,
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: and Loyal himself probably alone, brought the O gear back
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: into the battle the last battle.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, in many ways, right, what Coviral did was
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: what rand had aguayin do right, Coviriel united everyone who
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: was in in opposition and then serve them up in
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: one neat package to a good argument to change their minds.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: I could see that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Again, oh gear logic.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know the loyal will never take credit.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Absolutely not. And that's part of what you know his
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: proud mother will be doing behind the scenes, is making
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: sure that he gets the credit whether or not he
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: wants it, and hopefully his wife will do the same.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: And that brings us into the actual prologue of the book.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Proper, which does not start with the paragraph because we
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: are not at chapter one. We are at the prologue.
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: The only book that actually starts with the paragraph as
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: Fires of Heaven, because there's no prologue, even though chapter
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: one is a prologue.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Of the prologue.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it should have been named prologue.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: But the paragraph at the front, and they thought that
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: that would trick us.
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: But now we know a prologue when we see it.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: Fires of Heaven. Yeah, not following the pattern. We know
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: what you're doing, or think you know what you're doing.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: Just read us in really quick.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's a good reading. This is this is
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: brooding and cinematic and.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: Lovely prologue distinctions. And we have the snake in the
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: wheel because there's just a lot of wheel of timey
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: things going on in this prologue. I guess it's not
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: picking out any particular character or item.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, we've got good guys, bad guys, people who've
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: been around since book one, people who will only exist
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: for one POV. Like, it's a really wide spread of
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: characters here.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: Do you know where the distinctions comes in.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's when he's thinking about how he's not going
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: to take anyone who can't ride with him. Ah, and
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: he's like, I'm doing an eye to die. But he's like,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: it's a petty distinction. But if I said I can
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: do it, then I can do it too. And then
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: you know that doesn't.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: Work keeping to the letter of his word, right, But
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: then of course he keeps to the spirit of it
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: because he's Land not nice.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: And I exactly, exactly he's better than I is to die.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: Mannarb's hooves beat a familiar rhythm on broken ground as
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: Land Mandragrin rode towards his death. The dry air made
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: his throat rough, and the earth was sprinkled with white
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: crystals of salt that precipitated from below. Distant red rock
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: formations loomed to the north, where sickness stained them light marks,
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: a creeping dark lichen. It's really yeah, that's how you
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: spelled lichen. It's not lichen.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: You know the stuff that grows on trees and rocks.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's not lichen.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: No, it's lichen. See, we can both be bad.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: I've only ever read that word.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Ah, there you go.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Then mosses and lichens aren't lichens. Werewolves?
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: No, those are like like a knit. What's the you're
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: it's close. It's something similar for.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: Freaking wear wolf like l ycn was supposed to likeen thrope.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there we go, Thank you, mom. Jeans.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: So, I think that's whenever someone says liking I think
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: werewolf and so lichen is that makes a.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Lot of sense based on the spelling. Yeah yeah, well
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: today you and definitely someone in the audience lanned.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: I hope. So he continued riding east parallel to the blight.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: This was still Saldea, where his wife had deposited him,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: only narrowly keeping her promise to take him to the borderlands.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: It had stretched before him for a long time. This road.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: He turned away from it twenty years ago, agreeing to
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: follow Morain, But he'd always known he would return. This
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: was what it meant to bear the name of his father's,
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: the sword on his hip and the Hedori on his head.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: This rocky section of northern Saldea was known as the
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Prosca Flats. It was a grim place to ride. Not
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: a plant grew on it. The wind blew from the north,
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: carrying with it a foul stench like that of a deep,
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: sweltering mire, bloated with corpses. The sky of her head
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: stormed dark, brooding. That woman, Land thought, shaking his head,
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: how quickly Ninive had learned to talk and think like
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: an isid eye. Riding to his death didn't pain him,
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: but knowing she feared for him, that did hurt very badly.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: So brooding, so cinematic. It's a great opening shot.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: But this is we haven't seen Land since Ninive put
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: him through the doorway, right like, this is him brooding
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: and riding and riding and brooding. You know, he's crossed
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: most of Saldeya.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: But that's a big country.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: It's a huge country, and so he's spending this whole
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: time being like I can't believe she got me on
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: a technicality that she says, you take me to the borderlands,
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: and I wanted I was saying the Pass, Jingai Pass,
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: and she kept saying border lands, and we thought we
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: were talking about the same place because Jeni Path is
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: in the borderlands. But she used a distinction between the
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: two of them to quote the title of the chapter
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: to say to send me somewhere else.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like a fifteen hundred mile distinction.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: It's like I want to go to Nova Scotia. I'll
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: take you to the Canadian border. Okay, great, to Nova
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: Scotia Canadian border. Yeah, sure, ends up in Vancouver.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: What the fuck right, it's the border. But yeah, he
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: is writing this whole long the whole long time we
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: haven't seen him. Part of the reason we haven't seen
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: him is because he hasn't been seeing anyone else, and
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: so there's been nothing interesting for the camera to focus
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: on because he's literally just brooding by himself for like weeks.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: I think he's been traveling.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: Oh god, I'd have to look at the timeline because like,
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: don't forget the entire last book basically didn't happen in this.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Timeline, right, we're jumping back.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Towers of Midnight starts at the same time a
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: gathering storm does for all intents and purposes, or at
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: least happening in parallel.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, give or take. But yeah, But for however
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: long he's been doing this, he has not seen anyone.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: He has avoided seeing anyone. He has stayed away from people.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: He's been very rural, very cross country.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: Assuming he's had to fight a few things that have
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: come out of the blight, right, one.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Assumes he's had one or two interesting witcher like encounters,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: So as he's riding along, you know, he hears gravel falling,
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: which is the you know, universal indication, cinematic indication, because
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Sanderson watches movies.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: He just writes for the camera.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I was watching A River Wild last night, which
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: is in nineteen ninety four Kevin Bacon movie where Kevin
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: Bacon is the bad guy hunting people on a river
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: and this one guy climbing, you know, doing that thing
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: where he's climbing the rocks on the side of the
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: river trying to hide, and there's the gravel falling down
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: that gets his attention. So I'm like, I definitely saw
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: this in a movie last night.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: I know exactly what fully snip they used to make the.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: Exactly And of course that ends up being Bulein.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, who is with Land right up until most of
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: the way through the last battle. He doesn't die until
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: pretty close to the end.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: And he's a character introduced in New Spring.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, he is there. Yeah, and there's even a reference
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: to that here.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: So he's a serving boy and he's like, oh, I
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: wish i'd served you better, and I can't. I don't
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: remember the exact circumstances, but I think Land like sends
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: him to fetch something. Here we go. Yeah, when Lane
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: arrives in a a steishar, thank you I supposed to,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: shouldn't it be ice?
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, you're right.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: Bulen's his errand boy. Bulen's there when Moraine calls on him,
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: and it looks like when he gets betrayed, Bulen stays
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: loyal to him. So he's in three chapters in New Spring.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: He's not in a lot of it.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: He doesn't have any agency, but he blames himself for
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: not saving the world because that's.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Exactly exactly like, Yeah, he's like I should have done
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: something to fix the dark friend stuff that you were
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: dealing with back then, Land, and Land's like, you're a
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: servant boy.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: A literal child, a child.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: And I was a man. Although I do really like
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: the uncertainty that Land has in New Spring, he's not
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: as certain of a man as he is in these books.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: He's a much more freshly minted man. In New Spring.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: There's twenty years of experience between that man and this guy.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: And that's what Bli Bilan's like. I was, you know,
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: thirteen or so when I saw you last. Now I'm
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: you know, thirty three, ready to go to war. But
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: also like kind of need my dad to tell me
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: I can wear the headori right or my king either way,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: because kings are, you know, essentially father of the nation.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Is kind of how that shakes out.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: So got what is it? God? King, country, their God
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: king family? I think is the order you're supposed to
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: care about the authority?
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: But yeah, there's it's called the Great Chain of Being,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: and yeah, I believe it goes God and then king
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: and then country. I don't care. All I know is
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: that a lot of men got angry when people started
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: questioning the Great chain of being and now the world
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: has a lot more people in it being themselves.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: Look, because the Marion isn't always the head of the family. Geez,
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: interesting that Bulan calls Ninive l Ninive.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: It's some kind of honorific. I'm assuming it means like royal, right,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: like because all was king right some contexts, so l
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: could be a variation.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: On that, but I would think we would be on our
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: last name, not her first name.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Well again maybe, and that's why maybe it's more of
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: an honorific than a legal signifier. It's just like most
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: exalted Queen Ninive or something.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Sort of like miss Ninive.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Right, but like with extra sprinkles totally, it's the awesome
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: with awesome sauce.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Just something I've never noticed before on the first name.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: So it's just like, oh, that's that's interesting.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: And I don't think they ever do it anywhere else ever,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: But it has the feeling of an honorific, like she rules, dude,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: you have to have your kingdom back just you can
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: have a queen like that.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: This is the only place in this book that it's used.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I wonder if it was supposed to be all ni
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: nive and someone.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: Just up because you got all land men dragon. Well
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: l could be for the female version of it, right.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's probably what it is. If it's all land
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: for men, then it would be l ni neive for women.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Because nothing cannot be gendered. If you can gender it,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: gender it like, that's the world we live in. Find
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: more things to randomly gender for no fucking reason.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: The English language actually does a much better job of
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: that than most other languages, like French. Everything like why
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: is a donut female or male? You know, well, that's
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: a bad example, but.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: It's a good example. We don't. It's food, right, it's food.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: I don't care what your fucking perviass imagination. We don't
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: all need You don't need to make that all of
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: our problem.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: You know. My favorite thing is when I learn afrodijiacs
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: are in entirely I thought of that way because of
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: their shape. Like, if you look at every afrodisiac, it
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: either is shaped like a penis or shaped like a vagina,
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: and it has nothing to deal with the effect whatsoever.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: It's entirely like, oh what gets in the mood dick
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: shaped food? Oh so yeah, Land thinks, Hey, I promise
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: to take anyone who's riding and he's on foot, so
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: I don't have to take him if I don't want to.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: A petty distinction.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: Basically throws a little mental Yeah, a petty distinction, but
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: he throws a little fit in his head, and then
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: he tells him to go away, and as he's walking away,
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: Bulan's like, can I wear Thedori please? I need someone
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: to tell me it's okay, And that Land takes pity
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: on hims, like fine, ride with me if you're if
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: you're that loyal.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, especially because it's like the whole my parents died,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: you know, and the malchurri thing, and like Land shares
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: that pain. It is just it's a whole. It's a whole.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Bulan's just like, what if I just take all your
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: heart strings and twists them like I made the light.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I was nice, I made the latch argument, but you're
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: forcing me to go for the big guns.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: Also, practically there's no supplies. He's like, we talk about
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: how in the beginning it's just bare rock everywhere, and
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: then the blight and he's like, yeah, I guess I
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: do need those supplies, Like I cannot forage when there's
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: nothing to forage.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Right, like Land has been managing on his own, but
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: like his luck is gonna run out eventually, He's gonna
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: have to deal with people at some point. And Belan's like,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: I'm not really people, I'm a follower. It's different. So
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Lan is unable to ignore his honor and his duty
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: and he lets Buln have the Hardori and join him.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: Then where that Hedori with pride, Land said, too few
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: keep to the old ways, and yes you may join me.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: Land nudged Mandarb in the motion, Bulan following on foot,
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: and the one became two. I like that the two
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: becomes four.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love following that progression throughout the book. And
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: then like it's like the five had become a dozen,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: the dozen had become handfuls, handfuls become thousands. Like it
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: just escalates in this beautiful, crescendoing kind of way.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: It's great and just the I think there's something about
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: a crowd coming together to support somebody's personal mission that's
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: really sweet. Rewatching Buffy and one of my favorite episodes
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: is the one where the high school kids come together
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: to give her like a little award to thank you know,
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: like to be the school protector. At the end, of
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: high school to be like you saved all of our
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: lives and that this is a very emotional moment. And
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: this feels similar to me, like this group of the
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: Malkie are coming together to support the king who's sacrificed
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: his life and then you know, giving up what they
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: had to really support his cause and be like, no,
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: this is the remnant of the nation that we belong to,
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: and this is where we belong as much as you do.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Right, And then all the other Borderlanders coming together to
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: be like, yeah, you fucking belong there, and it's just
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: this whole auditorium full of people cheering, and it's great.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: I also find it interesting most of the Malkire are
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: half Malkiyary.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, because the loss of the nation was pretty total.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Very few people got out, so.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: It's most of the people who are Malcire are like, oh, yeah,
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: my dad left Malkire and married my mom and then
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: died and then they had me, and like, my father
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: was Malcire, but I wasn't really raised. A lot of
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: them were raised in the tradition, which is why I
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: think here he's like too few keep to the old
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: ways because you have a lot of half bloods if
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: you want to use that term.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it was because a lot of the
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: people that got out were children, right, There was a
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: few adults taking out, just boatloads of children. I mean
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: not literal boatloads because they're a landlocked nation, but you
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: know what I mean. And so a lot of Malchierre
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: grew up with the memory of what they had lost,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: and but were you know, orphaned essentially and had to
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: grow up in other nations and thus marry other people
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: and like lose a lot of that because you know,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: it's locked behind trauma. And also you never went through
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: a manhood ceremony because you were six when they bundled you,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: because you'd gone through a manhood ceremony would have been
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: part of the last defense. So it's a whole like
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: broken cycle of stuff. So yeah, most of the mercury
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: that you see now are people who their grandparents were
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: the people who actually knew everything, and their parents have
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: just these tattered remnants and then they went and inevitably
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: managed to orphan their own children because cycles of trauma
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: have to be repeated. So yeah, it's it's really fluttering.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: It's a guttering candle, right, there is so little left
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: and that is why you need the absolute bonfire that
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: is Ninaive to come in and help them come back together.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: And bring together as scattered people too. Is like, yes, individually,
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: there's not a lot of them, but like if you
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: bring them all together, it's it's a decent amount.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Uh Yeah, especially yeah, when you bring in the extended
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: family that they have married into. And yeah, there's a
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: lot of people who believe in the nation as proper
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: malchiury should It's just you need to get them aware
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: of each other and all gathered into the same place.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: And I think with that we can switch over to Paren.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Paren having a very dreamy sequence.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: There's some interesting stuff going on here.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: So I do.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: You think Landfear is interfering at all in this sequence?
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I was wondering so many times throughout that throughout this
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: whole section, if any Forsaken are screwing around on the edges,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: particularly Landfair, because this feels so unique, This whole sequence
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: feels so unique.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I was trying to come up with a
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: theorist why because he's having a normal dream in tele
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: irun Riod and there's a few things about it that
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: make it feel not very tele Iran Riod to.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Me, Well, he says he's dreaming, but not in the
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Wolf dream, so it's like a real dream.
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: But it's not his dream. I guess maybe that's what's
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: going on, is that he's just lucid dreaming, and so
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: like there's some incongruities here because he does have just
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: like a total dream going on. But then you've got
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: the whole thing with like paren being a prophecy dreamer, right,
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: some of the times his dreams come true because he's
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: in the wolf dream.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Right, and the Copper's there, And I don't think Hopper's
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: prone to digging his way into people's personal dreams, right,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: So yeah, maybe like Satana's is saying, it's like a
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: dream shard, like maybe he's making like a proto dream
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: shard bubble or something just because of his natural talents.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: And like if he was more skilled, he could actually
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: like break that off and make it into like a
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: full blown shard that he could bring people in and
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: out of consciously. But I don't know, it's it's weird.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: Weird, it's a weird Maybe Hoppers making it somehow.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: Now I think not, because at the end it looks
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: like it's turning into a nightmare, and Hopper boots him
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: before that nightmare can get too severe. So there's definitely
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: a real nightmare that's generated. And I don't think Hopper
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: would have little enough control to keep that from happening
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: if he was in charge.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: Hmm. I wouldn't necessarily agree that that's what's happening at
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: the end, is that it's becoming I mean, I think
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: that's certainly an option. But there's laughter in the distance.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Like there's hand like it gets all creepy, and then
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: there's laughter, and then Hopper boots him. So I'm just like,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Hopper didn't make that. Hopper is aware of the larger context.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: Right, But who's laughing? That's my question. I feel like
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: somebody's controlling the dream and that's and the person we
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: know who's fucking with Paren in the dream is Sindane
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: slash land fear Right.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: We don't know when she starts. When she starts doing
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: it on the page, she makes a few comments that
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: make it seem like she's been doing this for a
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: bit already.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: And it's very difficult because Paren is a very unreliable
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: narrator in that section, and so his motivations make sense.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: I mean it took me. Honestly, I did not catch
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: the first time that she was compelling him until the
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: very end. I was like, Oh, that explains all the
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: crazy things he's been doing. But I was like, why
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: is he working with land Fear? Right? That seems like
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: a terrible in the same way that like, why is
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: Morain working a little Lanfear in the show?
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: It just never made a lot of sense to me.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: But I was like, fine, if this is the direction
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: they're going, I'll accept it. But I never really thought
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: of Moraine being compelled right right. I just thought she
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: was doing it for her own reasons, and so I
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: was kind of thinking the same thing with parent. I
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: was like, well, he's just doing this for his own
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: reasons at first, but then later you're like, oh, no,
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: he's being compelled.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: But no, we do know that Landfeir is super super
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: skilled in the dream and that the dream is like
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: the space that she considers her domain, et cetera, et cetera.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: So I could totally see the reason why he's like
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: it's the Wolf dream but not the Wolf dream and
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: being in a space that Hopper can reach it. Yeah,
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: maybe she found him in the actual wolf dream and
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: sort of just like scooched him off to the side
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: and pulled him into a corner that she could manipulate,
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: because the laughter at the end doesn't feel like it's
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: coming from inside his head. That feels like an emergent
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: property of the world around him, with the creepy curly
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: hands and Hopper hitting him so that he leaves, you know.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: And for me, the fact that so many events don't
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: line up with reality, right, like, why is this dream
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: if he was reliving the events, If he was dreaming
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: about it, I think you would relive the events as
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: they happened. And his inability to like the weird like
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: having the acts instead of the hammer. Why because land
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Feir wants them to be more violent, right right?
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: I like the idea that Landfeir is just trying to
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: manipulate at the edges, so that way, when she decides
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: to make her move more seriously later, she's already got
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: groundwork laid or sindane if you insist.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: If you want to insist, she calls herself land Fear.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: She doesn't really think of herself as sindane. She doesn't
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: accept the stipulations the dark Ones put on her because
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: she's working for her own team. She's not part of
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: the Dark Ones.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: She's still Team land Fear. Even if she's been named Sindane,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: She's still Team.
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: Land Fair exactly, still Team Landfeer, because she makes herself
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: look like land Fear in the dream, Like she clearly
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: still thinks of her as that person, not as this
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: new whereas like Baltamel, rangar Alima, whatever you want to
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: call her, is embrace the transmission and doesn't even think
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: of themselves as Mouthamel at all. Right, They're like, oh,
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm R and R one.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, fully committed to the bit, to the point where
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: their own memories feel incongruous because of the present picture
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: of self.
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: He's like, it's weird. I can barely even imagine having
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: a dick, Like I picture myself having sex without a dick,
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: but I clearly had to dick in those memories, so
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: like it's very difficult. He says that he's like, very
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: difficult to imagine my body because I have body dysmorphia, right,
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: because I think of myself as having a female body. Now.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is the quote unquote punishment from the
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Dark One, because that's the most inventive the dark one
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: could be.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: Okay anyway, So parents having this dream where he's forging,
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: I would say an army, yes, his followers, however you
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: want to say it. And like he starts with two
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: misshapen lumps. One of those ends up being aerom for sure.
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: What was the other one?
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: One of those two rivers? Guys, I'm forgetting the name
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: I was.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: I was trying to do some connections because he he
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: pounds two nuggets and then a hinge, and I kind
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: of wanted the nuggets to be you know, by yeal
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: and bare lane and him to be the hinge.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, he pulls out just a series of two
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: rivers fighters. That's what it is. In the way of dreams.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: The volume of metal put in does not correspond to
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: the volume of metal taken out. No, totally, totally, but yeah,
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: I agree seeing the Barreley and Fayel thing allegoric they
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: represented would have been cool, especially if he'd been trying
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: to make a hinge at the same time. That would
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: have been neat. Maybe two on the nose, but would
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: have been neat.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: Because here here we've got the first just going through
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: the pieces paren pound it into a misshaped nugget, perhaps
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: the size of two fists. He sets that aside. He
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: grabbed the lump of iron thrusting at the handble so,
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: and then he makes something else that's another shoddy piece.
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: He set it aside. That's a misshapen flatten lane about
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: as long as his forearm. Oh. I feel like he's
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: making his axe and doesn't know it, mollinare, and he's
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: not ready yet, oh.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Because I mean he keeps thinking about understanding the pieces.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: And I do think making a magic weapon, you do
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: really need to understand the pieces before you make a
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: magic weapon.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: So a bar and then the first pieces could be
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: the head of the axe, and the bar could be
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: the handle.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: I hadn't thought of that, but I really like that
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: that he's building the pieces of his army, which are
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: also the pieces of the hammer that he's going to forge.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: And then here the parents set the final bar aside
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: without working on it. It cool, taking on the shape
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: of a thin rectangle, not unlike the beginnings of a hinge.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: So those are the three pieces, right, the lump, the handle,
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: and some hinge connecting them right, And I can't really
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure what that's supposed to be other than
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: when he makes the hammer. He makes the head, the handle,
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: and then something to merge them together, right, he makes
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: the piece in between that joins them. So I feel
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: like that's as close as I can come to having
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: a parallel here.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, I like it. I like it because it's also
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: clearly him hammering together the many, many, many many disparate
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: pieces of followers that turn into his army. So the
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: number both matters and doesn't matter, right. The point just
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: is that he's working on it, and he's not ready
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: for the final form yet.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: And then just a couple of things about the dream
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: that looks like it's being influenced from the outside. He
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: sort of goes into this mode where he is old parent,
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: young parent. Right, Master Lulan would be ashamed to see
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: such shoddy work. Parent. He discover what he was making
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: soon before his master returned. No, that was wrong. The
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: dream shook and the walls grew misty.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Uhhh, that feels like manipulation. It has to be him
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: pushing back against manipulation.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: Exactly, So he's being trapped in this vision. And then
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: he comes back to himself and goes, that's not right,
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: and then everything kind of shakes a little bit because
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: he's fighting against the dream. And then here's another quote,
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: Parent's asking, can I run so far? The wolves can't
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: hear me? And parent and Hopper's confused. Being cut off
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: was not a thing Hopper could conceive. Parent's mind grew fuzzy.
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: Why'd he stopped foraging? He had to finish Master Luhan
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: would be disappointed, right that track, Yeah, like get back
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: to doing what you were doing, and that just it
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: feels like parents shouldn't be able to be manipulated like
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: that in the dream world without someone actively influencing him externally.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Right, his subconscious would not be doing that. That has
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: to be someone with power and skill pushing on his mind.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: Which to me says land fear, which to me says
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: all this vision is her trying to influence him and
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: make him feel worse about what happened and somehow make
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: his his nightmares come true.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: But she's doing it through the medium of telerenriod, which
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: means that Hopper can get in there and act like
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: a firewall or an anti virus and just kind of
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: be hanging out like you got to deal with me too.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: You can't push me out because I'm a wolf and
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: that's different, and you don't mess with wolves.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: Because I remember, going back to the first book, Lorraine says,
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: you know you need protection from your dreams and parents,
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: like I've already found mine, And it's because Hopper is
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: sitting in his dreams protecting him from at that point
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: in shaw Mael, but this feels similar.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and land Fear apparently has never decided to deal
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: with wolves. She despite being a dream master, she's clearly
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: very anthropocentric and just doesn't care about the presence of
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: wolves in the dream and does not have any particular
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: need or desire to keep them out. So Hopper's able
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: to be there providing a little bit of a reality
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: check to parent, though of course, his reality check is
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: quit messing around with forging entirely and just vibe bro
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: and Paren goes through this whole long thought about the
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: wolves and losing himself to the wolf inside him and
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: blah blah blah, blah blah, and then he says the
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: exact key, he didn't want to be a wolf. He
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: wanted to be a man. That's all that the revelation
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: is is understanding that your desire will find the balance
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: that it needs to find. Like you need to stop
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: micromanaging this your natural You know what you want. You
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: are not confused about wanting to be a wolf. You
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: know you don't want to be a wolf, which means
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: you won't become one. It's literally you carried the shoes
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: across oz with you the whole time, sort of like,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: it's right here, it's right here. I don't want to
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: hear any more whining about this parent. I don't want
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: another book and a half of you whining about how
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: you're gonna lose yourself.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: To the wolf.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: You won't because you don't want to. You know that
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: already right here.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: And that violence that you're afraid of isn't the wolf.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: That's the human inside of you.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: It's not the boy exactly exactly. You're blaming everything on
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: the wolves, and it's so obvious here in the prologue.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: You have all the thoughts laid out on the table,
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: and you're just unwilling to see the pattern they make.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: There's a little bit here about Aaron. So then so
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: after he sort of forages his three ugly things, all
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: of a sudden the barrel starts bubbling and he starts
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: pulling out multipleurines, right, And that's the first one's Arm.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: So obviously there's some like you have forged the people
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: under you, you have created them. And one of the
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: creations was Aarm, which did not go well.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, his first really intense follower. He's had lots of
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: followers since. But Aaron kind of marks I mean Fayel
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: were Gaul, right, but Aarm is the first of the
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: army and it's really like Westlands later book sense and yeah,
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: it did not go well. Paren mishandled Aram very definitely.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: So then we get sort of a retelling of Malden
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: from a different POV. Again, I think this might be
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: Landfeer's POV.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: It's altered, it's tweaked. It points at a different version
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: of Paren than the one we know went through it.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: This is a much more violent, much more murder happy parent,
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: even though the results are the same. The parent who
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: goes in there with the axe is one. So, oh, okay,
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: mirror world. We know Landfear has access to mirror worlds,
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: and is there a mirror world where instead of Paren
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: putting his axe into the tree after chopping off the
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: Iel's hands, he uses it to fight And this is
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: a version of that, right, This is a version where
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: the version where Paren, instead of putting his axe in
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: the tree, has the axe and fights. You know, aarm
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: doesn't get killed. Paren kills him because we have because
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: he's a cold blooded murderer. He's no longer given up
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: the violence of the axe. He's actually decided that he's
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: the kind of person who would just kill aarm instead
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: of letting him get shot by arrows.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: I like that again. I like that because it is
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: so close, right, Like it was such a pivotal decision
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: and this is so close to what happened that it's like, yeah,
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: this is a mirror world where Parent's just a little
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: bit more over the edge than he is now because
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: he was still a murder happy, violence ridden madman when
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: he went through Malden. It's not like he was a
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: zen monk going through that. But the subtle difference of
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: the ax versus the hammer is a big part of
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: his wolf human balance, right like the axe versus hammer is.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: So it's one of those small decisions that has all
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: all the propagations. But I love the idea that this
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: is inspired by a mirror world.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: But then you got Hopper saying a horn of a hoof,
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: a horn or a hoof young bowl doesn't matter which
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: one you use to hunt. So it's like the wolf
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: doesn't see the difference between the axe and the hammer,
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: but paren does.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Because it's a human problem. It's the human violence. Like
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: it's the axe versus the hammer is a thing he's
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: able to use to help understand the human versus wolf thing.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: It's an analogy, but it's actually about the human side.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: It's always been about the human side because wolves do
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: not go to war, right, they hunt.
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: They don't understand.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you're hunting for food, it doesn't matter
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: what weapon you use. The point is that you get food, right,
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: It only matters how you kill people. If you are
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: a professional killer. If you are doing war things, then
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: it matters how you do it.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: It's not the last battle, it's the last hunt.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right, exactly exactly. So if a human is
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: doing violence, it's just on a whole other intellectual plane
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: than where wolves are even processing information. If a wolf
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: wanted to like hurt other wolves directly, it would probably
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: be considered aberrant, you know.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: And then so Parent turns to this is another thing
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: that makes me think that somebody's controlling this. Parents turns
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: to Hopper and says, why are you making me dream?
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: This making you this is not my dream, young bull, right,
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: this is your dream. But parent feels like somebody's making
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: him dream it.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Retin Hopper's like, bro, literally, it's not me. If I
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: was making you dream, it wouldn't be this shit, right, right,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: And they have a great exchange at the end where
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: parents thinking like, well, Figurine is like, this wouldn't be forged,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: they would be cast So like, what does that mean?
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: And Hopper, in the most delightful wolf fashion, is like,
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: it means there are many little men on the floor,
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: none of which you can eat, Like, this is the reality,
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: decreed it.
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: And so then in that moment, this is where you
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: think the dream kind of turns to a nightmare.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: He's gotted all the little pieces around him, and then
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: around them lay the broken shards of aerum. Those pieces
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: seem to be growing larger. The shattered hands began working,
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: clawing on the ground. The shards all became little hands,
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: climbing towards Parent, reaching for him. Parent gasped, leaping to
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: his feet. Here laughter in the distance, ringing closer, shaking
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: the building, Hopper jumps, slimming into him, and then parent
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: started awake.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that land Fear is frustrated with how
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: he's not taking the conditioning she's handing him, so she
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: just decides to reach for the nightmare thread to punish
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: him for not being a cooperative patient.
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: I think that's somebody else changed again, changing the dream
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: around him. Yes, exactly.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: The laughter, Yeah, I mean that feels like someone just
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: deciding to like and then I put spiders.
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: In the kit right, which is very land Fair, very I.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Mean more Moogeti in but you know, yeah, yeah, and
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: then he wakes up and immediately thinks about a bubble
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: of evil that it attacks the camp like immediately, like
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: it feels so externally imposed that whole dream sequence except
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: for the Hopper part. Hopper was obviously Hopper.
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: So we wake up and we get a little backstory,
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: which I think this backstory is really important because it's
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: so easy to miss, but it explains a lot of
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: what's been going on with Paren since Malden and why
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: he hasn't just gone back into the fray because it's
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: been like where is Paren? And part of it is
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: not a lot of times past because we're jumping back
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: in time. But the other part is they hit that
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: bubble of evil with the angry red oily serpents that
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: bit them all, and it seems like you've got that
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: moment where bubbles of evil aren't as easy to heal
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: away as other afflictions because they are breaking the pattern,
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: so they're not really able to fully heal the sickness
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: these red snakes. In part, however, I do think this
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: is one of the weakest delaying tactics that Sanderson employs.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: And he uses it heated, like yeah.
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this idea that he's that, oh, we can't travel
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: by gateway because Isaidae and Ashaman have been bitten and
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: weakened and spend all their energy healing, and it's like
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: it feels like it should be severan except it's working against.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: Him right right.
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: It feels a little like, of course, you could argue
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: that he needs to have resolution with the White Cloaks
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: and so all everything that needs to happen had to
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: happen so that he could resolve his issues with the
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: White Cloaks and the shan Chan, except that it doesn't
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: really apply to the last battle, which is frustrating to me. Right,
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: like if his army was more important and his like
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: paren bringing this unified army, which unified the Sean Chan
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: and the White Cloaks and all of these other groups
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: that came together to save the day at the last minute.
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: I would see that as being more productive and more
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: tevere and driven.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do feel like this was specifically a delaying
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: tactic to allow the timelines to work so that he
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: could would have that White Cloak resolution so that they
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: could be a significant part of the last battle. And
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: they just didn't stick the landing on that, and I
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: it would have been easier to swallow this if that
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: alliance had actually meant something really monumental for the last battle,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: it would have been easier to say, yeah, they had
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: to put in a delaying tactic because the timelines were
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: so desynchronized, Like, eh, okay, but it needs to have
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: payoff in order for me to forgive how low fidelity
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: this fix.
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: Is because there aren't any consequences other than delaying them. Right,
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: nobody dies, nobody's really hurt. It's just this like it's
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: just oh yeah, bubble of Evil delays less. It's just delay, and.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: That doesn't happen to like basically any other plot that
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: they just continually get roadblocked by bubbles of evil. That's
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: not really a mechanism except for Parent, And then it
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: happens like four times to him, So it's a little annoying.
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: Does it happen more than once or does he just
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: keep referring to this one bubble of evil over and
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: over again.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: I think it happens twice. I believe that the one
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: where all of the weapons come alive and Fayel and
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Barrelane have to fight off their daggers together and kind
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: of become almost friends through the trauma bonding. I making
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: sure that that one also delays the trial. So I
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: think actually it happens twice. I think four is maybe
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: a bit of exaggeration.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: They do three days delay on that one, Yeah, which
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: is very similar to a previous weapons come alive that
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: we've seen, right, Well, that was more blankets before we've
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: seen blankets and sheets and stuff come alive and all
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: inanimate objects that was in the tower.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the all the textiles, that was the
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: textiles bubbles of evil.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so the weapons is and didn't we and we've
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: seen weapons come to life. Remember when the axe attacked
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: Parent and he put it in the door, but that
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: was more that was his specific bubble of evil. Right,
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: that was when the three boys each got their own.
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: So that was just the axe.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because that was early days, a bubble couldn't affect
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: every axe in the entire Stone of Tear, like the
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: dark one didn't have that kind of oomph.
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: It also could only really affect.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Tavierin right, right, exactly exactly. But now it's big enough
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: to in a camp, so that's going to happen. But yeah,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: this one with the red oily snakes that bite everyone
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: and then go away, it was just like, what a
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: weird thing to have an off screen at that.
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: Let's tack into POV number three. I think we've are
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: rolling an hour in we can talk about Grendall.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do the Grandall POV.
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: So this is the bail firing of Natrum's barrow from
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: a different POV.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: Really emphasizing that this book is jumping backwards in time,
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: just in case you weren't quite picking up on that.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: Now we're doing a thing where we know exactly what's
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: going to happen. We are watching it happen because we've
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: already seen it kind of jumping backwards, and.
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: This is a great POV from Grendall.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's so good. There's so many little nuggets about
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: the age of Legends and about the other forsaken. It's Yeah,
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: there was a lot highlight in this, even though you
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: know what's coming, seeing it from her perspective really makes
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: a difference in a lot of vice, plus the reveal
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: that she lived.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: I do really wish the scene was in the previous
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: book though.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I needed that to be like the actual epilogue
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: with her shaking her fist at the sky and then
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: that's the end of book twelve of the Wheel of Time.
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: Because I don't like us having a book break where
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: we think a character is dead. That to me feels cheap,
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: and then bringing them back like it does feel a
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: little bit like a retcon because it's in a different book.
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: I think it was in the same book. I would
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: accept it a little bit better, but as it is,
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: part of me wanted to go really like because there's
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: a point where she gets the isid eye and Orangar
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: to do the compulsion, and to me, that's very out
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: of character, and it feels like the only reason she
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: does that is because she doesn't know the bailfire is coming.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: If she knew the bailfire was coming, that would be
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: one thing, But it feels like she just gets lucky
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: in a way that is reserved for Tiver and yeah, yeah,
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: and feels very just like, ah, twist, you didn't expect that,
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: you know, I didn't expect that because she would never
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: act like that.
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It is really weird how the queen of compulsion
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: is like, hey, dumb ass, why not you do the compulsion?
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: What in what world does she hand that responsibility off?
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: Never? Never?
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: She can't even see r and Gar's weaves to make
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: sure that they are what they say they are.
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: And what's hilarious too, is no one even sees ron
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: Gar's weaves. Nonnieveh only finds the female version of the compulsion.
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: She never finds the male version of the compulsion. I
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: don't think she says anything about, oh, there's something else there,
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: unless I'm misremembering that scene.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: She says there's really heavy compulsion, heavier and more complicated
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: than I've ever seen, right, but that implies that she's
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: seeing it.
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: So also the fact that it's just another I said, eye,
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: who's not like I feel like Nnive would notice that
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: these weed that this compulsion is not as intricate or
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: good as whatever Grendel is doing.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: But it's really really heavy and complicated, so she doesn't
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: quite count her own ability to read the complexity of it.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: I think I think that's why Grandall says, to make
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: it so complicated, so that way when Ninie looks at it, Oh,
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: only Grandall could have which again feels like weird reck
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Connie hole plucking.
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: Exactly exactly right, Like it's kind of like looking at painting.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: Or here's another one programming code. Right, you can tell
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: when different people have written a program because they have
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: different styles, they have different you know, they call different functions,
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: they use slightly different syntax. Right, you can compare two
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: code bases and be like, oh, these were probably written
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: by the same person, or at least someone who used
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: the same style. You know. And so I and I
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: know this, which I saidized this again, I blank on
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: the name Delana. Delana. That's right. Delanna never was supposed
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: to be particularly powerful. She was never supposed to be
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: particularly good at compulsion. This idea that all of a
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: sudden she's this compulsion master because Grendall has taught her
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: a few things. I don't like it. I don't like
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: it at all.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it feels really don't look too close, just
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: breeze on.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: By m And I think it could have all been solved.
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: All of this could have been solved with Grendall being
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: being cleverer, right, I don't like. I also don't like
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: that he's nerving Grendall a little bit, like she survived
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: from dumb luck, not from being clever.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very disappointing. Grandal should always be clever.
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: Always be clever. I think she should have been, like,
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: this is clearly a trap. He's clearly sending this person
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: in to be compelled. I'm going to have somebody else
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: do the compulsion.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: I don't want to see Grendal having dumb luck. I
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: want her to be clever always. That's what makes her scary.
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: Exactly right, because she's the one who's smarter than the
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: rest of the four seconds. She's the effective one. She's
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: the one who can manipulate the other ones. And I
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: would like to see her manipulating r Andar here into
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: doing and the Lana into doing it, you know. And
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: and the fact that, yeahugh, the fact that we only
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: see the female weave with the compulsion, but then she
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: makes a big deal about having ro and Guard do
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: it as well. Yeah, I feel like in the original
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: draft he just had R and Guard do it, and
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: someone pointed out that like arn Gar was using sidine
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: and I need would only detect the sidear one. So
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: he's like, fuck, I'll have Delne to do it as well,
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: and but then it's less convincing because she's not a
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: forsaken right right, And I like, I really do feel
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: like that was an editing thing that they caught that
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: this was always R and Guard doing the compulsion until
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: someone said ninive wouldn't see that because she's using the
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: male half of the source and he had to like
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: bring Dalaana in as well.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Completely agree.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: I just feel like it's it's a weak scene. I
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: like the outcome. I like that, you know, Grendel, it's
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: a weak scene just because of the dumb luck aspect
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: of it, as suppose to Grendall being clever.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: But it's got so much good Grendell energy exactly. Yes,
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: she's got this goblet with the drops of blood like
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: suspended in the glass, like that is some evil and
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: ostentatious levels of wealth, Like you didn't need drops of blood,
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: you could have just had rubies like a normal super villain, Like,
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: what the hell?
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: In a lot of ways, blood's cheaper.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, yes, but that's just weird.
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: You know how much of a cost to get a
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: pint of rubies? Right, Like, this is.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: True, this is true.
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: This is true.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: And she also has this whole section where she's talking
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: about the climate she's cultivating in the room. She rarely
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: left a window or door open to the outside, but
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: today she likes the contrast warmth from one side, a
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: cool breeze from the other. Life was about feeling touches
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: on your skin, both passionate and icy, anything other than
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: the normal, the average, the lukewarm.
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: It just that's great, that's randall.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that really that's not telling too hard. That is
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: the kind of thought she would have. It's just like
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: mm all, I like, is extremes. Never give me the
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: middle of the road, only the extremes. That's so her.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: But the extremes that balance out to be the middle
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: of the road. Right, So there's a certain amount of
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: like she's also a very balanced character, right, She isn't cheat. Yes,
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: she loves the extremes, but she brains them in. She's
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: not consumed by the extreme in the same way that
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: ar and Gar is consumed by his desires and his passion.
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: She can indulge in them without being consumed by them,
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: and that's really the difference. And she makes a point
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: of being like, and I make sure people think I'm
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: more consumed than I am.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right. She hides behind that.
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: She's the kind of person who enjoys a drink or
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: two at the bar and acts like she's wasted because
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: they're playing poker and right right.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and wins right, whereas I'm just like, yeah, I
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: totally I too, like to sit half in a hot
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: tub and half in a snowy environment that the hot
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: tub is embeddeded like, that's that's my idea of balance.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: But yes, you're right that that also is her.
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: I like being both stoned and drunk. That's the that's
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: my idea of balance. A. Yes, the spins loves the
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: wheel of time turns, especially when I'm crossed it turns
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: around me.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, very much so. But yeah, yeah, but yeah, r
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: and Gar is essentially whining in this scene. But like,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: I want to be doing something. I am bored. I
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: want to stir some ship up and then and then
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: this great line. This age is exciting. Primitive people can
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: be so interesting. So Balthamol, so very Balthamol.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: There's some implication that ron Gar's in trouble for losing
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: control of a guain when she got kidnapped a little
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: bit in.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: The doghouse as far as the dark one goes.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: And then we get Grendall using the true power.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, because she wants to seduce r and Gar the
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: most useful forsaken, very much worth your time and energy.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: Well, it's also about showing that she has the power,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: I think, because she comes up behind her and touches
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: her on.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: The cheek with the power.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: And if it was one power, arn Gar would know.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: So it's basically saying to arn Gar, I have the
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: true power, right, I think there's a little bit of stuff.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: I got the uncut powder power.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: You are out of favor. I am in favor, So
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: you should listen to me, is basically what she's saying
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: with that.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or just be consumed by your really short attention
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: span and insatiable desires. But yeah, same, same, And.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: So a couple of I think really interesting parts about
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: that one. She thinks of it a gift for Mordon. No, wait,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: the Great Lord. Don't confuse the two, right, this idea
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: that like.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: Uh huh nahbless and the Great Lord and not have
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: to say that.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: That's the same, not the same, but Morden because I
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: think a lot of ways, because Mordan's not selfish like
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: the rest of them. He actually is nihilistic in a
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: way that he only he really understands what the Dark
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: One wants, which is nihilism, and everyone else is like, oh,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: I want a new world to rule over, and it's like,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: that's not what the Dark One wants. And so that's
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: why Morgan's nabless, not because he's better or anything else
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: like that. It's because he understands the Dark One in
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: the way nobody else does. Because he's insane.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: He's insane, and the Dark One is not what you
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: would call human. Saying the Dark One is beyond human capacities,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: So insane is a way of describing the Dark One.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: And then the description of the True Power, right, A
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: weave of the True Power would often function in a
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: slightly different way or have an unanticipated side effect, and
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: there were some waves that could only be crafted by
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: the True Power. The Great Lord's essence forced the pattern,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: straining it and leaving it scarred. Even something the Creator
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: had designed to be eternal could be unraveled using the
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: Great Lord's energies. It bespoke an eternal truth, something is
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: close to being sacred, as Grendal was willing to accept
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: whatever the Creator could build the Great Lord could destroy.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that is such an important insight into
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: not just all, but all of the Dark Aligned factions.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: And I think the reason why a lot of them
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: align themselves with the Dark One is they're like, oh, yeah,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: the world exists, but like, I want to align myself
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: with the person who can destroy it, because if you
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: can destroy it, you have power over it. Yeah. That
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: takes me back to the Never Ending Story when Morlocke
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: when he's like, why are you doing this? And he's like,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: because I want to have control over the nothing, because
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: whoever is control over the nothing has the power, and
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: then nothing in that case very much is an analog
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: for the Dark One.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmmmm. And I'm just over here, like I don't
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: get this obsession with power that y'all have. I just like,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: I just want some snacks and a good book. I
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: don't this power thing. I really don't get why y'all
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: are destroying the world for power.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: I don't get it.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: For me.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: It's because in order to enjoy my snacks in my book,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: I need the power to make people leave me alone. Yeah,
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: And I feel like that's a certain amount of just like,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: no matter how powerful you are, you always have to
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: answer to somebody. And I feel like there's a certain
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: amount of people who were like I don't want answer
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: to anybody. In order to get to that level, I
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: need all the power because answering to anybody is unacceptable, to.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: Which I say, tough titties, welcome to being human. Get
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: over yourselves.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: No rules, rules for thee and not for me. I
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: want no consequences for any of my actions, and the
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: more power I have, the less likely I am the
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: face consequences. So the more power I can gather, the
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: better off I am. Yeah, fuck you money.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: I dislike a world in which this is a driving factor.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: Oh No, I think that a fuck you money is
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: almost a bad thing because people shouldn't be able to
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: tell other people to just fuck off and then throw
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: money at them, and that would be acceptable.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: You don't think pay to play justice and regulations and
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: rules and speed limits is a good thing.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not a good capitalist. I've said it before,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: I'll say it again. I'm a pretty shitty capitalist.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you and me both were very bad shipping capitalism.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: What do you mean We've built our giant media empire.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: Giant raging media empire. So many yachts, so many yachts.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: Oh my god. Oh when you start measuring your wealth
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: and yachts, it's just it's a different scale.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a whole of a tax bracket. You're doing
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: taxes in like lifeboats, you know, just put the difference
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: like it's a whole thing.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: I swear I have almost a point zero zero zero
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: zero zero one percent of a yacht. Like It's.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: God, I don't even want a boat. People aren't meant
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: to be on bodies of water. Stay on land where
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: you're supposed to be.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: Water scares me, Like open ocean water with no land
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: in sight is a terrifying thought for me.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: I think I told somebody I'm too good of a swimmer,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: and they're like, wait, but doesn't that mean you're not
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: scared of drowning. I'm like, yeah, I'm scared of not
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: drowning for days and day and days and being there
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: just just a good enough swimmer to stay afloat and
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: not drowned for a very long time, but with no
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: hope of rescue. That's my nightmare.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: Oh that's awful. Yeah, that's bad nightmare.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: It's just like, at what point do you give up
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: when you're too angry to continue, when you're too tired,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: when you're literally falling asleep, when you're thirsty because you're
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: in saltwater and you've got no source of fresh water.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, pickling as well as exerting yourself.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, but there's a lot of strategies to float, especially
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: in seawater where you can use up almost no energy
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: to stay afloat and survive for a very long time.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: This is a bad mental picture. Let's go back to
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: the evil person.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: It's a bad mental picture. It's why I'm terrified of
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: open water. People like, oh, I'm scared because I'm you know,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: i'd go right under. I'm like, that's not what i'm
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: scared of.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: I'd never thought of that as a reason to be
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: afraid of being out in the open water. Thank you
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: for adding to my fears. The fort thing I'm a
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: bad swimmer, so that's not going to be my issue.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: I'm an acceptable swimmer, but I don't think I have
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: the capacity to outswim my tolerance for being in the water.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we've got are and Gar getting very easily seduced.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: And then she sends in some of her pets. So
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: she's already was messing around with Dolana, and then Grandall
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: starts flirting with her, and then she's like, okay, you
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: go play with Dolana. Also, here have some more of
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: my pets. I'm just like, so there's just like a
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: casual orgy happening like offscreen. Oh, it's just a developing
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: orgy just happening over there while the real plot happens
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: over here.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: Cool cool, cool in the background.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: Really, that's just like, and I mean, is it an
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: orgy when everyone when only one person is actually like
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: having any free will? I don't know, because you know,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: the mind slaves with the compulsion, Like are they even
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: really human at that point?
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's a certain amount like all these people
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: totally mind fried, pretty right.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So but anyhow, there's just a developing orgy while
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: she's in the other room, trying to take a call on.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: A dove interesting line. Grendall forbids the creation of gateways inside.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: Is she doing that with a dream spike? Probably not,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: because the bailfire would have destroyed it.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: I think it's just rules of the house.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: But wait, doesn't the dream Terran Greoll survive bailfire.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: I believe it does because it exists in the dream
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: world as well, So it can't be fully destroyed by
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: bailfire just because it got zapped in the real.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 3: World, because, like I remember, Parent tries to destroy it.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: I don't think I think he thinks that bailfire wouldn't work.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: Well, we know that bailfire doesn't work on Quendyar, so
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: it's a reasonable conclusion.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: But again, not all Terran Greoll or Quendyar.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: Right, right, But it is one that exists in two worlds,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: so sure.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I was I had a thought that, like,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: how does she forbid gateways in her inner sanctum? Is
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: it just a rule or does he actually like have
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: a tear on Greoll that's enforcing that? And that's kind
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: of like, shall we say, foreshadowing the dream spike because
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: she but she is given the dream spike later right
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: to specifically fuck with paren So I'm assuming she doesn't
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: have it at this point.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she can't have it at this point, though, You
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: are making me think. I wonder if if you went
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: into the pit in the ground that is what's left
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: behind after Natron Vera was zapped, if you'd find a
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: collection of various Quandar objects that had, you know, been
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: stored in various chests and drawers and stuff, and they
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: just all fell.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: Tingled to the bottom.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like that, Now we have a stash of coolter
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: on Greall and Quindy are goblets and stuff for someone
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: to find someday.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: Reading Dungeon Crawler Carl by the way, so spoilers for
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: one of the books, but in one of the books,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 3: one of the ways he beats the bad guys is
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: he essentially gives all the good guys feather falling and
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: teleports the castle somewhere else, and so they're all up,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: like multiple stories, just up in the air, and the
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 3: castle has like a really deep basement, so they all
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: just fall and splat. That's how he kills all the
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: bad guys by teleporting away the castle, but nobody inside
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: of it. And so this is sort of a similar like,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: that's kind of what I imagine the quin Yard would do, right, yeah,
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: exactly exactly prised the castle and then everyone else everything
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: in it would go, would fall to the bottom. So
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: remarkable that happened in another series that I'm reading right now. Nice, Yeah,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: Dungeon Crawler, Carl. I'm enjoying it. I will say there
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: is some some I do tend to lose concentration during
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: some of the battle scenes. Some of about because it's
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: it's based on a video game, so a lot of
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: times the battle scenes just happen spontaneous. They're random encounters
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: and then they fight and then it's over. And I
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: don't always follow what's happening in the battles because they
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: have gotten a little repetitive to me. However, I am
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: enjoying the rest of the book quite a bit so,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: and it's a fun, you know, fun, lighthearted series. And
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: as we get into book seven, there's more overarching plot.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: You're not just dealing with the individual levels. You're dealing
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: with more like what is the whole plot behind the universe.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: So it sounds fun, Yeah, I would. I would say,
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: you know a lot of people I know have tried
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 3: Dungeon Crawler Carl are enjoying it. It's a fun read.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: I won't say it's the deepest thing ever, but it
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: is certainly fun and isn't as shallow as you might
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: think from the first few books that a few books
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: are very you know, it feels like you're starting a
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: new video game to me, you know, and then there's
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: a little more plot, a little less video gamish as
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: we go on.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: But well, not everything has to be the deepest ever.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: Sometimes you just want to read a book that is
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: a video game.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I've been reading a lot of I've looked
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: at it and I'm like, man, all the stuff I've
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: been reading lately is from first person kind of sarcastic
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: male perspective. Right, Dresden Files is from the perspective of
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: Harry Dresden. Right, it's all I statements, first person writing, Bob,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: the Bob a Verse all first person writing, and now
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: Dungeon Crawler Carl, it's all first person writing. So it's
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: like this, this this archetype I've noticed I'm reading a
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: lot in books is a person who's in a situation
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: telling it from their POV without really taking things too seriously.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: A very Deadpool ask type style. Yeah, it's very popular
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: these days. It's so and it's working for me, that's
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: what I'm reading.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: Congratulations, You're with a trend for once, right Yeah.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the dungeon Crawler Carl is definitely trending right now
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: for sure. So you know, I gotta stick with the
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: trends as well as you know, like I read Sarah J. Mass,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: you know, didn't like it at all, thought it was terrible,
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: but I still read it all just because it's the
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: trendy thing to do, right, so, and I feel like
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: to have those conversations and have opinions. I need to
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: do those readings.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah, sometimes it's just homework. It's not for pleasure,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: it's homework. I've not read that because I feel like
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: being a trend bucker and not doing the thing because
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: everyone else is doing it. That's explicitly why I'm not
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: doing it, just because I need to be obstinate and special.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: Every now and then I get on a trend, but
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: usually I'm just like, ew, it's trending. I'm going to
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: do anything except the thing or come to it, you know,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: eighteen months later, once everyone else was gone.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a couple of I think I did that
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: a little bit with Dungeon Crawler Carl, because I've seen
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: it pop up as a recommendation in audible for me
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: for a long time, and I've been being like, oh,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: that looks stupid. It's just video game stuff, Like I
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: don't I don't want to read video game books. So
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: I was very against reading it at first, but I'm
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: glad I picked it up. And it's the kind of
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: thing where you start to care about the characters enough
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: that I'm going to go back and like read, listen
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 3: to the first book. By the time I finish up
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: the series. It's not done yet, but by the time
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: I finish up what's published it just so I can
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: be like, oh, yeah, let me let me see where
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 3: these characters came from. I think that'll be worth it,
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: all right, decent tangent on Dungeon Crawler Carl.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: We can go back to the books.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: I'm at grand All having the Alarm come into her
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: ears and going and dealing with Ramchalan. That's about where
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: we're at. And yeah, she just grabs Ramshalan and like
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: gets into talking a robot voice that Kate reading does
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: a great like robot monotone for the audiobook, just very
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: like stilted and flat, and I like it. And yeah,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: she gets all the information out of him as efficiently
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: as possible. Instead of dealing with a bunch of back
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: and forth mind games, she just gets the information in
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: a print out.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: There's this a captain of her palace guard, Garrimond. What
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: I feel like I've seen him before, but when I
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: looked him up there was he has this is his
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: only appearance.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: Some mandala affect. Shit. I had the same feeling like,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: surely this is someone. No, no, it's not.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: Isn't isn't Garamond? The font spelled similar. I think it's
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 3: one of those things where it's like it's not exact,
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 3: but it's similar enough that you could like it.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: Ah, okay, all right, Yeah. So all she really gets
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: from this interaction she understands what Rand is doing. She
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: understands what Rand is doing, which is he sent a distraction.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: He found her. That's the important part. She thought she
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: was safe and Rand has found her, and that freaks
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: her out because all of her plans are contingent on
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: him not knowing where she is. And then she almost
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: runs and then she's like, oh but I could stay
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: and figure out a way to hurt him, and then
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: she you know, almost dies because she tries to stay
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: behind and screw stuff up.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: I find it interesting that she does the initial compulsion
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 3: on Ramchalan just to get his information, and then actually
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: takes that compulsion off.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: H yes, I noticed that. I noticed that she takes
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: her own compulsion off, which I need can't.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 3: Tell again one of those things I just don't see
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 3: Grendal ever doing right, like not.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: Without commenting to herself, how clever she's being.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: If she had commented to herself, I had better remove
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: my fingerprints so that way when I send him back,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: someone else is holding the bag for the compulsion, then
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: it would be fine. But the fact that it is
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: a non commented random decision, like that's Matt shit, that's
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: Matt territory, that's not Grandel. And then she gets the
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: dove and we get some really cool insights into the
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: true power, as well as the spy network of animals
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: that the dark Side has been this whole time. She
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: thinks about how doves are a little bit harder to
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: work with. Vermin are the easiest ones to work with,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: but also they have to like go back, like when
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: they get used for regular surveillance, they have to go
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: back to report. Like there's all these little bits and
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: pieces and hints of how this stuff has been working
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: the whole series, since the breaking, since before the breaking, Right,
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: these little bits, these little bits. We love forsaken povs
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: for this reason. I also like that she thinks about
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: how different bird senses are. I've been re listening to
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: An Immense World by Ed Young with Brandon, really cool
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: book about animal senses. Everyone should read it, And I
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: just appreciated the part here where the perspective of a human,
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: the sensory experience of a human is fundamentally different from
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: a bird's, and that makes her surveillance awkward, Like lights
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: and sounds are wrong, and I'm like, yes, that is correct.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: She's seeing ultraviolet right, because the colors are more intense.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: She's seeing like different colors because they have different cones
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 3: than us. Birds sealed traviolet.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: Right, and they're focused differently because they work at different distances.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: And like the ear holes are very much not calibrated
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: to catch the nuances of human speech.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: You'd be surprised birds actually, birds actually do have a
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 3: fairly similar tonal range. To us, they have a wider one,
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: but they're very capable of understanding. At least parrots are,
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: for sure, Yeah, because they can you know, they can
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: imitate a lot of sounds.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah, But like the hearing architecture is clearly
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: different on a burd totally totally.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 3: I think it's almost like they're hearing more sounds that
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 3: don't make any sense because they've got a wider range
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 3: of hearing.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: It's different. And I mean every kind of bird also
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: has its own totally totally right, Like doves and parrots
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: are pretty far apart. But yeah, I just I like
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: the nod to it that it's not just like getting
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: into a drone and flying around, like no, no, no,
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: you have to work with the fact that this is
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: a av in brain, not just you in a drone.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 3: And the fact that like she she's like, oh, I'm
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 3: not gonna fly it because flying's too complicated. I'm just
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 3: gonna nudge it in the right direction itself.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I did like that too, like, oh yeah, no,
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: flying is actually really hard, which like I'm in video games,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: I'm horrible at the flying tasks or like the underwater tasks,
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: and any video game like if you add that third dimension.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: I am so bad at navicating well.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 3: And then just imagine on top of that, she has
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: to like move the wings that she doesn't have, and like,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 3: you know, it's like the throwing a ball for the
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: first time, you're gonna get it wrong, or you know,
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 3: some riding a bike. Yeah, yeah, very coordination based. Like
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 3: she's gonna have to learn how to do that, and
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: she hasn't put in the time.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: Or you could just co opt the birds practice.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 3: And just till it go here. Yeah, which in a
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: lot of ways, like if you're programming a robot, you
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: don't want to have to tell it and move this wheel,
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: move that wheel. You want to tell it go here
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: and have the robot figure out how to get.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: There, right right, have all of its little onboard computers
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: do the math to figure out that stuff. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: My other is really into flying drones, like really fast drones,
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: lots of different kinds of drones. He's into all kinds
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: of drones, but there's a lot of You give the
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: computer the specs, and the computer does the work to
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: actually balance the motors to do what they need to do.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: Because it's all happening far too fast. For you to
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: be customizing how much power each given blade is putting out.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: Which is what's so crazy. I think about the way
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: biological feedback works and the way predictive feedback works in
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: our brain and the fact that we're able to like
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: do what we do because we look at the response
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: times involved and just having a computer do it. It's
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 3: like your brain has to predict things because it literally
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: can't respond to stimulus fast enough. Right to catch a ball, right, yeah,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: you have to be able to like predict where the
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 3: ARC's going and like put your hand in the right
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 3: place because and do that in a way that's timed
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 3: really crazy, like the mechanics of catching a ball, because
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 3: literally your brain can't react fast enough to the ball,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 3: so you have to predict where it's going to be
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: and then put your hand in that spot and like yeah,
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 3: and the way that, like also optical illusions can happen
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 3: because you can your brain can predict something and if
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 3: the ball were to movement of light, like it would
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 3: just dodge your hand because you can't react to that movement.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 3: That's why the pictures put spin on their balls, right,
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 3: because yeah, yeah, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, brain
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 3: chemistry is fascinating and response times and shit like that,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: and like how much how much we live in an
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 3: illusion so that we can respond to things before they happen. Yeah,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 3: and how much optical illusions and things where your brain
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: isn't seeing things correctly that happens because your brain has
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: to create this predictive model of the world around you.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, how just the picture that your eyes see
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: is upside down from how you think you're seeing it.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, just right there, right there, you're already doing
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: a compensation in your brain to flip that image around.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: Like that's because you're not an octopus.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't all be perfect.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 3: They have all different kinds of eyes that don't see
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 3: upside down.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: I'm currently listening to the site chapter of an Immense World,
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: and yeah, it's what octopi, humans and some other creature
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: that is also really far apart. Like we've all got
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: very similar eyes in terms of like the architecture of
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: how they're put together, but like obviously really far apart
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: in our evolution. And yeah, the upside down thing, and
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: well it's.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: Because I think octopus eyes I forget exactly how they work,
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 3: but they don't have a hole in them. There's a
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: different architectures. They don't reflect through a hole. Yeah, something
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 3: they don't have that they don't have they basically because
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: we have a pinhole camera, right, and pinhole cameras always
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 3: flip the image upside down. Yeah, whereas I think they
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 3: just have a full array of neurons.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: What a trip.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was looking at that more. But but yeah,
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: all the same eyes have evolved independently multiple different times,
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 3: and so we have different kinds of eyes.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: Well, here's here's the fun thing. I'm going to just
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: tangent a little more into that book. So the oldest
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: sense in the entire animal kingdom is the chemical sense.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: That is the oldest, most universal sense that all life has.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 3: Call that smell.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: Basically, call it smell, call it smell. Site evolved from
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: that photoreceptors in eyes, that whole concept that is an
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: extension of the chemical sense in a sense, we're actually
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: smelling light.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: Interesting, that's actually the.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: Order of how we evolved the senses.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: So what part that's.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: The photoreceptor itself, the actual photo receptor, the part where
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: there's a chemical change in the eye in response to
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: a photon hitting it, And that chemical change is what
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: goes up the optic nerve into the brain to be processed.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: It's a chemical change. It's from the chemical sense.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 3: Sure, sure, and then then our owns Yeah.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: It's not kinetic, it's not you know what it's it's
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: literally we that site is the second sense that evolved,
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: and it came from chemistry or from chemical the chemical sense.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: It's a really cool book. You guys read it.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Hearing in vibration right, Like, that's another crazy one
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 3: where it's like, how much of that could you feel
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 3: before you have the sense an organ to hear and
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 3: interpret it?
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: Right, a mechanical vibration sense. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: so trippy, it's so trippy. We gotay focused on this book.
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 3: Well, and then the other thing we can talk about
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 3: really quick is the fact that five senses is such
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 3: a ridiculous categorization of our senses.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, in correct.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, We've got all sorts of interpretive senses about our
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 3: own bodies, about balance, about the world of gravity. You know,
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: there's just a bunch of other senses that exist.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of other senses that exist within
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: the human experience, and there's a lot of other senses
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: that exist outside of the human experience that we can't
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: comprehend except through tortured analogy and.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 3: A lot of the senses we do have in different
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 3: animals function, like the animals that have a totally different
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 3: range of seeing, you know, UV light or ultraviolet right
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 3: or because you know, stinks can see ultraviolet right or
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 3: I can see not ultraviolet the other end of the
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: spectrum in for red infrared. Thank you. Yeah, snake's having
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 3: fred senses and birds have they have ultra violet. And
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: you know, all animals have different ranges of hearing here,
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 3: different spectrum. You know, hear different frequencies higher or lower
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 3: than we can hear. Dogs have different scentse smells and
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: can sense a much wider range of smells than we
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 3: can smell.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: Read an immense world by Ed Yong.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 3: Do it Bat's at echolocation. I mean I can go
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: on and on on. Yeah, let's let's get back the books.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: We're doing secondhand compulsion on ram Shalon. While grand all
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: worries about how Rand found her and how dangerous is Ninive?
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: Does she have skills that are going to be a problem,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: Which is hilarious because naive is how he found her,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: But she does not realize the mechanic through which Ninie
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: found her. She's just like something to do with that, Almero,
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: woman is a hazard. It's like you are correct for
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: the wrong reasons, but you are correct.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 3: Because she say the only mining she let out of
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 3: her sight. We're under compulsion so heavy it would kill
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 3: them move it, and it did that.
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: That's the key, that's the key. It did kill him
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: to remove it.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 3: But he was able to get out just a bit
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 3: of information, which was the location.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: And I gotta imagine that that has something to do
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: with Ninieve's extremely skillful removing of that compulsion, you know,
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: like she removed it in such a way that he
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: was able to get those last two words out before
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: his brain completely gave up, Like a lesser healer would
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: not have been able to do that, and he would
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: have exactly exactly, only Ninive could have done that, like
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: Grandell did cover her tracks. She just, you know, as
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: all the Forsake can do. They underestimated Nineve.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: And she's also underestimating Rain here by saying, oh, he's
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 3: not going to kill women, not realizing that that has changed.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 3: He has revised because he killed Semarrock and that's so
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 3: then he's like, nope, I'm killing women now.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: I have been forced forced to revise that particular inclination.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. And then she's like you next to
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 3: agon or I want Rand to find a type of
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 3: a man on his mind that they.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: Don't red herring for us as the readers, And she thinks, oh, well,
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: loose Thearren could have found me Randolph Thora couldn't. But
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: like the bleed Through seems to be getting, you know,
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: more and more intense.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 3: Which, yes, her information is just outdated, right, she's about
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 3: two books out out of date on where Rand is.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so a lot more.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: About the Dove. I feel like we go into the
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 3: Dove quite a bit, and the flying with it and
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 3: the following the Owl would have been better. I do
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 3: like the idea that the reason the Dark One uses
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 3: rats and ravens is just like the one power works
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 3: better or the true power works better when compelling them.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're the fact that they're closer to death makes
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: them closer aligned with the intrinsic force of the Dark Ones,
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: so their brains take to the compulsion better. I like
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: that as a bit of world building.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: And then we have an interesting contradiction right, because we've
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: been told over and over again the rats and the
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 3: ravens have to report back to the Dark One, like
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 3: he doesn't see through their eyes, but the Forsaken can
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 3: using the power of the Dark One. And you know,
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 3: she basically goes truges her shoulders and is like, yeah,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 3: that's weird, right, I don't understand it, But part of
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 3: me is like, ah, man, this it does kind of
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: feel like this looking through the dove's eyes is not Cannon.
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 3: It feels like it's Sandersonian Sanderson thing, right.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: It feels like he found an eye of the world
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: loophole that he could wiggle through with just a little explaining.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, so it's that's not necessarily my favorite like
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 3: canon waye to And why choose a dove in this situation?
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 3: Why not just use a raven?
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: Because she had captive doves. She didn't have captive ravens.
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 3: She hadn't prepared, Oh, she didn't have captive owls. But
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 3: I think she's she's using the dove to be more unobtrusive, unnoticeable.
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: Well, right, because doves for a transfer communication is really normal, right,
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: everyone's got a dove coat, and in this you know,
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: kind of world.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 3: But I think rand also would fuck up a raven
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: if a raven appears.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: Right also probably then yeah.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: So I think that's why she's using a dove, not
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 3: that she doesn't have ravens, not that she wouldn't prefer
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 3: to use a raven, but because.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just assumed that she didn't have ravens on hand,
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: because she just has the doves, because that's a normal
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: palace operation stuff. It's just like having a switchboard rooms,
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, I would rather that it was that
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: the Dark One maybe you know what I feel like,
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: it's that the Dark One himself can't see through the
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: eyes of carrion feeders, but Dreadlords and the Forsaken can.
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: And so that's you know, where the legends are fading
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: to myth because there is nuance there that like didn't
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: make it through. But yeah, also saying well, life is
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: weird anyway, Aginer probably understood it is a nice way
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: to wedge in a little retcon that isn't too cannon break. Ye,
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: It's like, nah, Dark One works in mysterious ways anyway.
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 3: But there is a little bit of like the true
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 3: power can do whatever we want because there's no rules
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 3: because we haven't really defined the rules. Yeah, yeah, I
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 3: get that.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: It's a nice pressure release valve on the constraints of
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: the cannon that has been built over all the years.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 3: And I like that an owl would have been a
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 3: better bird because they're predators.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: And they have way better hearing like owls hunt by
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: sound like, that's why they have big feathered faces so
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: they can hear better.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 3: Also, she's followed them through the darkening woods. An owl
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 3: would have been better, so it's getting dark. Owl see
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: better in the dark.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: Doves are like, it's time to go to bed, right,
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: you know, like it's dark. I'm supposed to be roosting
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: at this point. So she gets up there. She identifies
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: everyone standing at the gateway. We recognize this scene. We've
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: seen it before. She can't make out much of what
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: he's saying, but he's talking about kad swaying and boxes,
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: so we can all remember what was happening at the
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: end of last book. And then he turns on the
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: bailfire power up sequence and she gets it. She understands
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: what is happening and makes her escape in short order.
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 3: There was an interesting reference here too, Did he recall
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 3: her murder of Yanet, and like, no context whatsoever, but
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 3: that seems to be a Age of Legends person that
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: she killed had to that was close to Lewis thearren.
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: Is there any information anywhere, ever.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 3: Not that I can find that other than that one line.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: I love that, do just that one? Like, Nope, that's
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: the thing that happened that was really important and could
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: have been a whole book unto itself, but we only
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: have the one line. That's it.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let's see woman from the Age of Legends who
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 3: Grendall murdered. It can be assumed that Lewis thereon had
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 3: some affection for her, although nothing else is known.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: I really wish that that had been somehow tied to
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: the Borderlander murdered woman Prophecy thing. That would have been
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: a fun little Easter egg to tuck in there, damn it, Yanet.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: And yeah, So she yoinks herself out of the dove
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: and tumbles back into her own body, looks over at
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: the two people who did the compulsion for plot based
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: reasons and undre present plot based ties them up in
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: air with shields, and leaps through a gateway. The gateway
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: is closing as the bail fire enters the room, which
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: feels like some real Indiana Jones hat under the door
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: times a bazillion.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 3: So you know what reminds me of It reminds me
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 3: of Independence Day. There's a scene when everybody's getting blown
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 3: up and Will Smith's wife is in a tunnel right
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 3: underground and the explosion starts coming down the tunnel. Cars
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 3: are flying everywhere, and she jumps into a utility closet
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 3: and the fire goes behind her, and it's like, there's
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 3: no reason why that fire wouldn't have totally filled the
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 3: room she was in. It doesn't. It's not a linear thing.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 3: There's pressure, the door was open, she would have burned
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 3: to a crisp inside that room. And so this is
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 3: a similar like, yeah, you don't see bail fire through
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 3: a gateway. The gateway would have been vaporized along with
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 3: everything else.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the weaves that make the gateway would have vanished
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: before they were made, right right, Like, yeah, it does.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: It feels like the timing is off, which almost feels
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: like Sanderson admitting that this shouldn't have happened.
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: She shouldn't have even be able to go through the
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 3: gateway because it's like, again, the gateway should have been
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 3: destroyed before it happened, so she never went through, so
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 3: she should have gotten bailed fired.
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: Right, She should have like hit the ground and then vanished,
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: right like long lived long enough to scrape her elbows
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: and then died.
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 3: Ye, one hundred percent.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's yeah, No, you're totally right about the fire.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: The physics of bail fire do not. I mean, yes,
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: it's a light beam, so it does operate on the
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 2: straight line lightbeam principle. But also it's touching the gateway.
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: The gateway is enveloped in bail fire.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 3: The only thing I'll say is the bailfire only undoes
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 3: the actions of people it kills, right, So it doesn't
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 3: undo so like she wasn't killed, So the gateway wasn't
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 3: undone before it was made, because it only does that
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 3: that the souls of people and the actions they take.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's fair, that's fair.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 3: So if someone else had woven the gateway, then she
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 3: would have been in trouble.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: But I still think that the gateway should have been obliterated, yes,
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: bailfire on.
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, I agree, there shouldn't it should have
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 3: been she jumped through and then the gateway winked out.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 3: There shouldn't be a blinding light at all. She should
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 3: never have seen anything about the bailfire. It should have
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 3: just been she jumps through and think gateway's gone. I
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 3: didn't close that. Oh the gateway got bailfired.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly. That would have. Yeah, a lot to
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 2: complain about in this scene, even though it's fun.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 3: There's a lot to it, right, which is why we're
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 3: finding things to complain about because there's so much. It's
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 3: such an information dump, where like some of this is
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 3: contradicting information we already know or is not necessarily the
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 3: best way I think it should be handled.
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but whatever. She has leapt out onto a hillside
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: not very far away. She's she's within shouting distance probably
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 2: of Rand.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 3: She's literally just outside the explosion radius. That pretty much it.
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she jumped to a hillside opposite of where Randon
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: and Co Are standing, and she's real pissed for a second,
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 2: She's real pissed. She lost a home, she lost a
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: fellow forsaken, she lost all of her pets, but silver Lining,
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: she's now the safest that she's been since she woke up.
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 2: Because Rand thinks that she's dead dead dead dead dead dead,
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: and she's not. She's very much not. She's in the doghouse,
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: but she's not dead.
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 3: We see the bail scream, and again, this is just
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 3: a wave of wrongness, the pattern itself rippling, and that
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 3: rippling doesn't necessarily mean it flattens the way it does,
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 3: and we only see one wave of it. I'm thinking
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 3: about when paren experiences the flatting, the quote unquote bail
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 3: scream that we decided was actually a bubble of evil.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: Right, right, But this, this description feels like it lines
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: up right. The pattern rippling would be a way of
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: describing what they felt. But this is only one. If
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: there had been three, it would be iron clad. But
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 2: there's only one, and that makes it messy.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 3: And the timing and the location don't line up, and
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 3: and and like, and the fact that only happens in
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 3: one spot, not in a lot of spots.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: Right, But yeah, she limps away with a twisted ankle,
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 2: knowing that the Great Lord will be mad, but also
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: already thinking about how she's going to turn it to
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: her advantage and in her you know, in her defense.
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: She does make it up until near the end of
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: the last battle she does come out of this only
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: completely changed in every possible way. You know, she survives.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 3: Technically, it was a strategy, right, and like again, if
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 3: she'd been planning for it, that would be different, but
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 3: she's not. This is definitely a retcon where she's like,
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 3: oh yeah, I totally meant to do that, and it's like, eh,
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 3: dark One sees through your.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: Bullshit, just like we see through Sanderson's bullshit as above,
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: so below, and so with that, we are going to
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 2: conclude the first half of our coverage of the prologue.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 2: We thought we were going to do this in thirds,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: but it turns out we're actually going to do it
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: in halves.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there was not quite as much in those first
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 3: two povs, but there's there's six povs. So it's half
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 3: in terms of the number of povs, because I think
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 3: there's more than half the chapter left at this point.
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: I think we're about halfway through, okay, because we're on
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: page twenty one in my book and the prologue goes
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: through page forty five, so we're real close to halfway.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 3: The only thing I'll say is when does the what
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 3: page does the prologue actually start on?
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: Prologue starts on page one. That's where the numbering starts. Okay,
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: so we're about halfway in terms of page count. I'd
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: say we're about a third of the way in terms
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: of the heftiness. Definitely, next episode is going to have
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: more oop in terms of what the plot is doing
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: in those povs, but we'll make it work.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 3: So and part of me thinks that the next scene
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 3: was actually kind of written by Robert Jordan, right, because
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 3: I have a quote that basically says, before Robert Jordan died,
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 3: he incorporated. Someone was asked, asked about mules. It's sort
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 3: of an offhand comment, but he said, oh, yeah, I
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 3: always like to write Southern literature. So if you know,
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 3: remember he wrote a Fallen Blood of the Fallen, which
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 3: was under a different pen name, which is Southern literature.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 3: And he says, it's not good Southern literature and unless
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 3: you have some dead mules in it, right, And someone's like,
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 3: dead mules, but you've never had dead mules. And Wheel
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 3: of Time he's like, I wrote some into the Wheel
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 3: of Time prologue. This was his last interview, right, And
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 3: so in the next scene, when the White Cloaks encounter
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 3: a bunch of dead mules in the river. That is
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 3: what he was probably referencing, which makes me think that
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 3: he had wrote written the scene with glad ahead of time.
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: Amazing. I love that coming up next week dead Mules
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: to make dead Mules true Southern literature.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 3: But I think that's what that is. That's a clue
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 3: that he wrote that scene. And that's where I'm going, Oh, yeah,
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 3: why is this so much more dense? Why is there
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 3: so much more to these last two scenes when these
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 3: first three felt felt very Sanderson right, And we know
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 3: there's some paran we know that it was like one
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 3: or two things per pov that you know there was
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 3: an apop A point, B point and C point in
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 3: each of these scenes. Well then we're going to go
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 3: to the next bit and there's so much more. And
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 3: it's because it was written by Robert Jordan.
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: I totally totally agree with that. All right, cool, I'm
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 2: looking forward to next week's recording even more. Yes, Robert Jordan.
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 3: Goodeath, even though it's a Gollid, at least it's not
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 3: a god one goll It's fine.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 2: This is where he's turning around into a much more
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 2: interesting character, and I actually enjoy reading him and he
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 2: has some depth and nuance like as Gowain gets worse,
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: a lot gets better, right.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 3: All right? Then see you next week with a little
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 3: bit of Gollid all right. And once again thanks to
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 3: all our patrons and uh poo support us and continue
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 3: to support us.
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 2: Consider listening to my other podcast, Kay Think Spye. Thank
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 2: you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:39:33
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• 1:39:36
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• 1:39:40
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• 1:39:44
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• 1:39:47
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