Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Inside the Lindsay Clancy Case: A Forensic Psychologist Weighs In | Dr. Leslie Dobson | E7

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Inside the Lindsay Clancy Case: A Forensic Psychologist Weighs In | Dr. Leslie Dobson | E7 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

0:00
Speaker 1: People aren't random, They're incredibly predictable. This is a show
0:05
Speaker 1: about the science of human behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and
0:09
Speaker 1: the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us
0:12
Speaker 1: don't even realize exist. Because once you see the pattern,
0:16
Speaker 1: you can finally change it.
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Speaker 2: I'm doctor Sarah Hinsley and I'm Rana Butcher. You think
0:22
Speaker 2: your life is random, it's not. Welcome to the Doctor
0:26
Speaker 2: Sarah Hnsley Show.
0:29
Speaker 1: What if everything we think we know about women's postpartum
0:32
Speaker 1: health can be questioned by the Lindsay Clancy trial. Her
0:37
Speaker 1: lack of care, her medication history, her begging for help
0:43
Speaker 1: and not getting the answers that she needed. Is this
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Speaker 1: a common experience? That might be why women all over
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Speaker 1: the world are supporting Lindsay and demanding change in our
0:58
Speaker 1: healthcare system for when, especially in postpartum. Today, we have
1:03
Speaker 1: an expert in forensic psychology that's here to talk about
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Speaker 1: women's postpartum health, the Lindsay Clancy trial and what we
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Speaker 1: really need to be learning from this horrible, tragic incident
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Speaker 1: that involved the death of three beautiful children. So I
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Speaker 1: would like to introduce our guests today, doctor Leslie Dobson, Hi,
1:24
Speaker 1: Doctor Dobson. We are so glad to have you. First
1:27
Speaker 1: tell our audience a little bit about who you are
1:29
Speaker 1: and what forensic psychology is.
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Speaker 2: Hi.
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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm a psychologist like all the other psychologists, but
1:38
Speaker 3: my emphasis was in serious mental health and its interaction
1:42
Speaker 3: with the law and the legal system. So I'm called
1:45
Speaker 3: in as an expert to do objective evaluations of individuals
1:49
Speaker 3: in criminal cases and civil cases all over the place.
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Speaker 3: So it can be trauma, it can be anything, and
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Speaker 3: I do these very extensive psychological assessments. Batteries they tids.
2:01
Speaker 3: I write reports that are fifty too one hundred pages.
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Speaker 3: I'm deposed it seems like weekly now, and then I
2:10
Speaker 3: tested by my opinions. I opined the court and the
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Speaker 3: jury my findings, and it's basically it's a walking light
2:19
Speaker 3: detector job because a lot of people lie and a
2:22
Speaker 3: lot of people are also truthful, but it's difficult to understand.
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Speaker 3: So I need to also explain combut's trauma to a jury.
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Speaker 3: So that's basically what I do.
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Speaker 1: It's fun, that would be fun, And so just tell
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Speaker 1: our audience the difference between a clinical psychologist or a
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Speaker 1: forensic psychologist that can do clinical work and a psychiatrist
2:47
Speaker 1: because a lot of people don't understand that difference. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: So my degree is in clinical and forensic psychology, So
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Speaker 1: I'm heavily trained in therapy and therapy modalities because there's
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Speaker 1: a lot So I have about eleven years of university
3:03
Speaker 1: experience and then a lot of training after that that's
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Speaker 1: supervised internships, fellowships, specifically in high risk sexual violence. The
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Speaker 1: difference with psychiatry is.
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Speaker 3: They don't get a lot of training in therapy. It's
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Speaker 3: a few months, it's a short stint. They're very well
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Speaker 3: versed in medication management, but they miss that other piece.
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Speaker 3: And so when they say they're giving therapy, one, they
3:29
Speaker 3: don't have the ability to do therapy the way that
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Speaker 3: we do. Two, they don't have the ability to do
3:35
Speaker 3: the testing we do they haven't had the training. And
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Speaker 3: then three they're just not able to see the full
3:41
Speaker 3: picture without having all of that training. And so I
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Speaker 3: think it's essential that psychiatry and psychology work together when
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Speaker 3: they have complex cases.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And you've brought up a good point, which is
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Speaker 1: psychological assessment. And as my degree is in experimental psychology, researcher,
4:01
Speaker 1: social and health psychology were my two subconcentrations of my
4:04
Speaker 1: doctoral degree, and so I am a scientist that turned coach,
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Speaker 1: and I work primarily from science, and I'm more of
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Speaker 1: a person that creates psychological assessments and uses statistical modeling
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Speaker 1: to create these types of assessments that then a lot
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Speaker 1: of clinical psychologists go out and use. And so what
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Speaker 1: I think people don't understand are things like assessment validity
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Speaker 1: and how assessments can be constructed and constructed to assess
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Speaker 1: for what we call them a lingering or trying to
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Speaker 1: fake responses. So tell our audience a little bit about
4:42
Speaker 1: assessments and what they are, how they are used in
4:47
Speaker 1: your field, and why other mental health professionals outside of
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Speaker 1: clinical psychologists are not as trained as clinical psychologists are
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Speaker 1: in giving these assessments.
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Speaker 3: So we often look at personality assessments and then we
5:05
Speaker 3: look at ones that you can kind of project onto,
5:08
Speaker 3: like the warshop the ink blot tests. Right, So we
5:11
Speaker 3: have these projective tests, and then we have semi structured tests,
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Speaker 3: and that would be the psychopathy inventory that we're hearing about.
5:18
Speaker 3: No Lindsay Plancy case, and so that is a semi
5:22
Speaker 3: structured interview where you're thinking about how to school or
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Speaker 3: twenty items, but you're not actually really exploring them while
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Speaker 3: you're talking to the person. You're waiting for the traits
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Speaker 3: of a psychopath to come out and join you in
5:35
Speaker 3: the room. Potentially you want the client to manipulate you,
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Speaker 3: because that would be the clearest evidence.
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Speaker 2: And then when we go back to the.
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Speaker 3: Personality assessments, a lot of them, like the NMPI we've
5:46
Speaker 3: heard as the PAI, they carry internal.
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Speaker 2: Loocility scales and reliability.
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Speaker 3: And so what we do is we can't see if
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Speaker 3: somebody is feigning on lingering, trying to look better, trying
5:59
Speaker 3: to look work. But the key to that is does
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Speaker 3: it line up with other tests that have similar skills
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Speaker 3: and then all of our other information and then other
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Speaker 3: tests that are very very different to see the same
6:14
Speaker 3: picture in all these different places. And that's what we
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Speaker 3: call innovator reliabilities.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and this is what in my field frustrates me,
6:24
Speaker 1: which could you know, we do have different fields. But
6:27
Speaker 1: you know, attachment is just a behavioral categorization, so it's
6:30
Speaker 1: kind of like a category of how someone will respond.
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Speaker 1: It's not a mental health disorder, it's not a you know, diagnosis.
6:38
Speaker 1: So a lot of people in my field give these
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Speaker 1: kind of bogus quizzes right online that have never been
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Speaker 1: tested for validity or reliability. These are not assessments that
6:51
Speaker 1: like questions that just somebody made up, right, yeah, and
6:54
Speaker 1: you're like, well this sounds right, or that these experts
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Speaker 1: are going to people and just asking random questions. They
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Speaker 1: have been tested scientifically and we can have confidence in
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Speaker 1: their outcomes, especially when paired with multiple types of assessments
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Speaker 1: and looking at how much they correlate with each other.
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Speaker 1: So thank you so much for that explanation in the
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Speaker 1: clinical sense. I've tried to do it in the research sense,
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Speaker 1: but it makes so much of an impact here when
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Speaker 1: we're thinking about Lindsay Clancy. So talk to us about
7:26
Speaker 1: your overall impression of the trial so far, of the
7:30
Speaker 1: evidence for psychosis, in what feelings you have regarding Lindsay's
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Speaker 1: experience with her healthcare in her postpartum.
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Speaker 3: To me, it seems very clear that she was struggling
7:43
Speaker 3: with mental illness. I do not think they will be
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Speaker 3: able to through criminal responsibility because they have to cruise
7:49
Speaker 3: beyond a reasonable doubt that she was seeing and all
7:53
Speaker 3: of these scheme is that she was in mentally ill
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Speaker 3: in a variety of different ways. I just don't think
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Speaker 3: that there is any way that they can leave us
8:03
Speaker 3: at this point. But I see a poor, poor mom
8:08
Speaker 3: who over four months, was trying to get help in
8:12
Speaker 3: such a broken system. And the providers that have been
8:17
Speaker 3: testifying are so I don't know if it's in narcissism, but.
8:21
Speaker 2: They're so in it.
8:24
Speaker 3: They didn't want to talk to each other, they didn't
8:27
Speaker 3: want to build a village around this woman. They wanted
8:30
Speaker 3: to do everything themselves. Even when they would giving the
8:32
Speaker 3: opportunity to review records, they did not. And so the
8:36
Speaker 3: failures of these particular providers really stands out to me.
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Speaker 3: And it's shocking in a way because I had nestled,
8:45
Speaker 3: didn't like that I was not trained like that. And
8:49
Speaker 3: I'm hoping that this isn't something that is so common
8:52
Speaker 3: around America, but I'm very fearful that it actually is.
8:56
Speaker 3: And so I'm very happy this trial is actually public.
9:00
Speaker 3: Even though it's a loss, it's horrible all the way around.
9:03
Speaker 3: It's a witch trial. It's going to reach homeatize so
9:07
Speaker 3: many people and moms. There's finally shining a light on
9:12
Speaker 3: the lack of research and care in the funeral mental health.
9:16
Speaker 2: Yes, because even with Andrea Yates, you know, in that
9:19
Speaker 2: case back in the was that the early two thousands,
9:22
Speaker 2: late nineties, I can't remember, you know, where we didn't
9:24
Speaker 2: have the capabilities to make it as public.
9:27
Speaker 3: You know.
9:27
Speaker 2: I assume that's sort of the silver lining here is
9:30
Speaker 2: that it's bringing more consciousness around the subject of women's
9:33
Speaker 2: health and how we can be more proactive, you know,
9:37
Speaker 2: as providers, because hopefully the providers are kind of sitting back,
9:40
Speaker 2: Hopefully they're not so narcissist that they're not thinking like, well,
9:43
Speaker 2: I did everything I could, you know, hopefully they're thinking,
9:46
Speaker 2: you know, we did fail her, We did fail her
9:48
Speaker 2: in so so many ways, and how can we move
9:51
Speaker 2: forward and being more proactive and more cohesive plan for
9:55
Speaker 2: other people that could be experiencing this, because.
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Speaker 3: I mean, I assume you're a mom. We're moms.
10:01
Speaker 2: You know, we've experienced our unfair share of what it's
10:05
Speaker 2: like after we have a baby, and I think too
10:08
Speaker 2: often we focus on you know, pregnancy, labor, and delivery
10:12
Speaker 2: and then it's like, okay, be on your way, good
10:15
Speaker 2: luck and vote for the best.
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Speaker 3: I think a key to understanding this and so that
10:22
Speaker 3: people aren't scared to is you know, what we want
10:26
Speaker 3: is proactive healthcare and what ends and medical doctors are
10:31
Speaker 3: trying to be are reactive. So if they're not seeing it,
10:36
Speaker 3: it's not there to death. And so what we need
10:40
Speaker 3: to do, and we have to advocate for ourselves and
10:42
Speaker 3: our families and our loved ones, is we need to
10:45
Speaker 3: look beyond what is rated out of our face, and
10:49
Speaker 3: we need to ask questions differently with the debts. So
10:54
Speaker 3: it's wishing up a whole mental health awareness as well.
10:58
Speaker 3: How do you talk to your provider.
11:01
Speaker 2: And how to provider providers work closer together, whether that's
11:05
Speaker 2: just one system outside of the multiple systems that kind
11:09
Speaker 2: of collectively. You know, I used to do case management
11:13
Speaker 2: years ago, where it was like collectively I would try
11:16
Speaker 2: to manage you know, a person's health care plan or
11:19
Speaker 2: mental health. But then the issue of you know, overworked
11:23
Speaker 2: and underpaid, which I think obviously is an issue all
11:26
Speaker 2: around here where you know, providers are it's just an
11:30
Speaker 2: other's gain in and out, in and out, in and out.
11:32
Speaker 2: And then of course you know, we could bring in
11:35
Speaker 2: big Pharman and how that plays a role, and you know,
11:38
Speaker 2: and it becomes just this massive undertaking that it's like,
11:41
Speaker 2: where do we go from here? Where do we go?
11:44
Speaker 2: And I want to get your opinion on that, because
11:49
Speaker 2: in terms of being proactive, where are your thoughts? Yeah,
11:52
Speaker 2: that's a great question. Where do we go from here? Yeah?
11:55
Speaker 1: What is the kind of first public health level intervention
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Speaker 1: that we need to see so that we can reduce
12:03
Speaker 1: this outcome at any and all costs.
12:07
Speaker 3: I mean it goes back to money, right, It's always money.
12:10
Speaker 3: So budgets what are we budgeting for? Hospitals are constantly underfunded?
12:15
Speaker 3: Where is the money? You go, especially VA hospitals and
12:18
Speaker 3: the government funded programs. So we need McLean hospital in
12:25
Speaker 3: this trial with understands, and they didn't have a psychologist,
12:28
Speaker 3: and a lot of inpatient units that hold people for
12:32
Speaker 3: short periods of time during crisis don't have psychologists. They
12:36
Speaker 3: also don't have a lot of therapeutic interventions, and so
12:40
Speaker 3: we need to put people in place that are actually
12:44
Speaker 3: in the bring as we went together, it acts like
12:46
Speaker 3: the mother hen almost and that takes money, and so
12:51
Speaker 3: we need to change policy. Big hospitals need to change policy,
12:55
Speaker 3: and I know a few are because it's actively being
12:58
Speaker 3: ensued in civilar. Now I'm a part of different hospital
13:02
Speaker 3: lawsuits right now. So they're going to lose a bunch
13:05
Speaker 3: of money in these civil lawsuits and they're going to
13:08
Speaker 3: be forced to change their policies. Yeah, I think educational
13:11
Speaker 3: policy needs to change too, because if we really want
13:14
Speaker 3: to start up the foundation, it's how you know, you know,
13:17
Speaker 3: medical doctors go through medical school where these things are
13:21
Speaker 3: just sort of being skimmed over and not.
13:23
Speaker 2: Really implemented, and then you know, I feel like anymore
13:27
Speaker 2: they're given out degrees like TIC TACs where and it's not.
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Speaker 3: Mandatory to train in.
13:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.
13:35
Speaker 1: Yes, And I know that's some other things I've talked
13:38
Speaker 1: about on this podcast before is I was the director
13:41
Speaker 1: of two clinical psychology programs, Society and PhD that ran
13:45
Speaker 1: parallel to each other, and just the amount of mental
13:51
Speaker 1: health problems that we have in America and how that
13:54
Speaker 1: has resulted in our training programs being shortened, training programs
13:59
Speaker 1: that are drastically shorter than we've ever seen. You know,
14:02
Speaker 1: we're talking nine month master's degrees to your PhD degrees,
14:09
Speaker 1: and to me, that is sort of an insane number
14:13
Speaker 1: to try to train somebody at the graduate level. I mean,
14:16
Speaker 1: both you and I went through doctoral level work and
14:20
Speaker 1: it is incredibly long and intense for a reason because
14:25
Speaker 1: only a certain amount of people should be able to
14:29
Speaker 1: reach that level when they have proven that they have
14:32
Speaker 1: the capability of doing that type of work and working
14:35
Speaker 1: at that level. And now, in academia in general, it's
14:39
Speaker 1: more of a paid at play system. You pay enough money,
14:43
Speaker 1: you can go to a non accredited degree program. You
14:48
Speaker 1: could get agree degrees that are not accredited by the APA.
14:53
Speaker 2: There are a.
14:54
Speaker 1: Lot of flaws that start in the educational system now.
14:58
Speaker 1: And I get that we need providers, but we also
15:01
Speaker 1: be competent providers, and I think that that is a
15:05
Speaker 1: big issue.
15:06
Speaker 3: I often tell people when they're looking for a psychologists,
15:09
Speaker 3: I say, look for somebody who works at the VA
15:11
Speaker 3: hospital and has applied to practice, because you can't work
15:14
Speaker 3: at the VA unless you've gone to an a competitive
15:17
Speaker 3: program get a standard is so incredibly high to work
15:20
Speaker 3: at a VA hospital. So when you're looking for providers,
15:24
Speaker 3: you really should take your time and dig and make
15:26
Speaker 3: sure they're the right fit for you all excellently, you know.
15:30
Speaker 3: I go back to internship. When I applied for internships
15:34
Speaker 3: so many years ago, I did the match program with
15:37
Speaker 3: my husband. We wanted to be together. We interviewed in
15:41
Speaker 3: eleven states and be rank ordered like seventy different condemnations.
15:47
Speaker 3: It was so difficult back then to set an internship
15:51
Speaker 3: and now you.
15:53
Speaker 1: Just pick one and you go, yess, it is drastically different.
16:00
Speaker 1: In fact, you know, a lot of programs are shutting
16:04
Speaker 1: down because they can't get APA accreditation, and it ends
16:10
Speaker 1: up being where people don't necessarily want to seek them
16:14
Speaker 1: out because they do have aspirations to work in the
16:17
Speaker 1: prison system or at the VA. You know, with those
16:19
Speaker 1: jobs pay very well, they have good benefits, they have
16:21
Speaker 1: good retirement and you can't get those jobs without an
16:24
Speaker 1: APA accredited degree. And you know, it makes me really
16:29
Speaker 1: sad because a lot of the women that are going
16:31
Speaker 1: to be seeking care are not going to be seeking
16:34
Speaker 1: combatant care.
16:35
Speaker 2: They might be seeing.
16:38
Speaker 1: Someone who had that nine month master's degree and is
16:43
Speaker 1: trying to get therapy for significant or severe mental health
16:48
Speaker 1: disorders through a provider that doesn't have a lot of
16:52
Speaker 1: training on those disorders. They have training in maybe family
16:56
Speaker 1: stress and you know, personal interpersonal stress, you know, and
17:00
Speaker 1: they can do sort of basic therapeutic level interventions, but
17:04
Speaker 1: they are not trained to treat, to see to diagnose
17:07
Speaker 1: or to assess severe.
17:10
Speaker 2: Mental health disorders.
17:12
Speaker 1: And I think Lindsey was shuffled among providers that weren't
17:17
Speaker 1: necessarily trained to see what she was really experiencing. So
17:21
Speaker 1: because of that, there have been a lot of people
17:24
Speaker 1: online saying, there's no way she could have been in psychosis.
17:27
Speaker 1: Look at how normal she acted here, look at how
17:30
Speaker 1: normal she acted there. So talk to us about psychosis,
17:33
Speaker 1: particularly postpartum psychosis. I am not a clinical psychologist, so
17:38
Speaker 1: I know just enough to tell people that, you know,
17:41
Speaker 1: people can be normal when they're experiencing psychosis. Everybody in
17:46
Speaker 1: our field who has any training in abnormal psychology, if
17:49
Speaker 1: you took one course in abnormal psychology, I think you
17:51
Speaker 1: would find that out. But to our audience who has
17:54
Speaker 1: not had any of that training, talk to us specifically
17:57
Speaker 1: about psychosis and why people can look normal but be
18:01
Speaker 1: suffering delusions and hallucinations and severe suicidal or home style
18:06
Speaker 1: thoughts at the same time.
18:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we have psychosis, and we have schizophrenia,
18:13
Speaker 3: we have psychotic disorders, mood disorders.
18:15
Speaker 2: Right.
18:16
Speaker 3: Post partum is different because it's a medical onset of ovens,
18:21
Speaker 3: so the trajectory of it is much faster so normally,
18:26
Speaker 3: if you begin and you're in that perdermal phase or psychosis,
18:30
Speaker 3: that's the beginning where you're like kind of thinking somethings off,
18:34
Speaker 3: and that's what providers can actually catch you and prevent
18:36
Speaker 3: you from being fully psychotic. That doesn't happen necessarily when
18:41
Speaker 3: it terms to postpartum because of the rapid onsets. So
18:45
Speaker 3: in postpartum psychosis and what we saw in Lindsay was
18:48
Speaker 3: very rapid, we had the intrusive thoughts. We had what
18:52
Speaker 3: looks like obsessive, compulsive behaviors but related to these intrusive thoughts.
18:57
Speaker 3: So these thoughts of worry and anxiety about the baby,
19:02
Speaker 3: but they became so extreme that they between clinical. They're
19:06
Speaker 3: no longer just the one that the experience that are
19:09
Speaker 3: more you know, you can take care of yourselves. They
19:11
Speaker 3: became clinical and they started to become an emergency. And
19:16
Speaker 3: the thoughts then moves into more concretized hallucinations. So you're
19:22
Speaker 3: beginning with I'm hearing myself say these things or seeing
19:26
Speaker 3: these images, but then it starts to be wait, they're
19:29
Speaker 3: not my own thoughts, they're not my own images. I'm
19:32
Speaker 3: hearing them from another entity. Somebody's putting the thoughts into
19:36
Speaker 3: my head, I get paranoid. People actually know that these
19:40
Speaker 3: thoughts are in my head. Now I think people know
19:43
Speaker 3: that they are in my head, and then they comportize
19:46
Speaker 3: further into coming on the auditory couciations, which those aren't
19:51
Speaker 3: just cosations. It's not just a voice telling you what
19:54
Speaker 3: to do. It is your body overtaken by a delusion aschosis.
20:00
Speaker 3: You're not moving your body, you're outside of your body,
20:03
Speaker 3: and you're watching it news and you're not This isn't
20:07
Speaker 3: a choice anymore. It wasn't a choice for Lindsay. You
20:12
Speaker 3: have physically seeing catatonia as patients when psychosis has completely
20:18
Speaker 3: overwhelmed their bodies. And what I think people also don't
20:22
Speaker 3: understand is that you can be catatonic and you can
20:26
Speaker 3: have the negative symptoms of psychosis. So you're really slow
20:31
Speaker 3: at talking, you're really depressed, you're detached or isolated, you're dissociating.
20:36
Speaker 3: But you can also have bursted energy. And that is
20:40
Speaker 3: in particular important in ultruistic philicide when people analyze their children,
20:46
Speaker 3: because that energy meets the command and the delusion. It
20:52
Speaker 3: has meaning to you. I have to save my children
20:55
Speaker 3: now or else I'll never be able to. And that's
20:59
Speaker 3: why you see the end and you go forward and
21:01
Speaker 3: the crying of her. And this can be a variety
21:04
Speaker 3: of different crimes, but that's kind of the pathway, and
21:07
Speaker 3: it's rapid fire. That's why you say, if you are
21:10
Speaker 3: at all at risk, if you have a history of
21:12
Speaker 3: bipolar disorder or media or if anyone is saying any sentenced,
21:16
Speaker 3: did you go to a hospital and you stay there
21:18
Speaker 3: always and with children and so you get better?
21:21
Speaker 2: Yeah? How do hormones come into play here? Because obviously
21:24
Speaker 2: during postpart and this might not be your specialty, of course,
21:27
Speaker 2: but you know, just your opinion, I guess is you
21:30
Speaker 2: know after postpartum and rmons are crazy and you know
21:34
Speaker 2: obviously is that that's playing all too Oh definitely the.
21:40
Speaker 3: Baby, the coenti because what else is pumping out? All right? Right?
21:45
Speaker 2: I mean even in like even in this stage of
21:47
Speaker 2: my life, you know, in our forties and feeling you know,
21:52
Speaker 2: the warmono shifts in my own body and in my
21:54
Speaker 2: mind and what's happening there and trying to navigate that.
21:58
Speaker 1: And just struggle. Yeah, pose it is such a struggle.
22:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely mentally, emotionally, physically and at least at this
22:06
Speaker 2: point in my life, I have a little bit better
22:08
Speaker 2: understanding of my body and how it works. But you know,
22:11
Speaker 2: when I was a twenty three year old mother, I
22:14
Speaker 2: didn't you know, I didn't have that knowledge or even
22:17
Speaker 2: the awareness really of what was going on with my body.
22:20
Speaker 2: Now I have the ability to kind of step back
22:22
Speaker 2: and be like, Okay, you know, I just screamed at
22:25
Speaker 2: my husband for no reason, like that may have just
22:27
Speaker 2: been a hormonal shift.
22:28
Speaker 3: You know.
22:29
Speaker 2: So you know, but these things I just don't.
22:33
Speaker 3: Now.
22:33
Speaker 2: I want to gi your take, specifically on the defensive
22:35
Speaker 2: stance and what you think about the direction that they're going,
22:40
Speaker 2: you know, and if because I've been very interested in
22:44
Speaker 2: like some of the way that they're presenting things, and
22:48
Speaker 2: if you again you're in your opinion, if you think
22:50
Speaker 2: it's the right way.
22:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I I think that the psychologist could
22:55
Speaker 3: have been way more thorough. And it's star saying that
22:59
Speaker 3: aph was. Doctor Zeizel is a little more old school,
23:04
Speaker 3: like my old school psychology do is you know, work
23:06
Speaker 3: in my name and gets some meditatient And that's why
23:08
Speaker 3: we're going to feel the customabalidity. So I think we're
23:13
Speaker 3: going almost in difficulty with that. But the overall defense
23:16
Speaker 3: I think is clearly showing that Lindsay had this exploration
23:22
Speaker 3: of symptoms and the meditations needed well exacerbated her symptoms significantly.
23:29
Speaker 3: Brain fog, not feeling like she was in her body,
23:32
Speaker 3: feeling like her brain wasn't going to come back. So
23:35
Speaker 3: many the symptoms have been shown to the journey and
23:37
Speaker 3: explained to all of us that she was unwell and
23:41
Speaker 3: she was trying to get well. And we even have
23:44
Speaker 3: a TikTok all those testifying.
23:47
Speaker 2: Extra bo right.
23:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, and her notes, her notes got in which are incredible,
23:52
Speaker 3: and I personally like to say I know her and
23:55
Speaker 3: people need to lay off her. She was extremely nervous,
23:59
Speaker 3: but she didn't incredible thing she broke. Notes that got
24:03
Speaker 3: in and now the jury is going to see how
24:05
Speaker 3: inect in the plane was that Emily doesn't have to
24:08
Speaker 3: be fast and examined. So it was actually the perfect
24:12
Speaker 3: way to teach the jury that that hospital saled Lindsay, right, absolutely.
24:17
Speaker 1: So you know, as a scientist, you know I have
24:21
Speaker 1: a little bit of a different brain. My brain went
24:25
Speaker 1: show me the research I want to look at. I
24:27
Speaker 1: I spent you know, an hour the other day, just
24:30
Speaker 1: doing literature search, trying to pull up as many articles
24:33
Speaker 1: as I could on postpartum psychosis, first episode psychosis, and
24:39
Speaker 1: I was able to find, you know, twelve or so
24:43
Speaker 1: studies talking about, you know, false autobiographical memories and sources
24:48
Speaker 1: attribution in psychosis. I will say the majority of the
24:53
Speaker 1: research is in schizophrenia, but they did have some research
24:56
Speaker 1: in first episode psychosis and postpartum psychosis. There was a
25:00
Speaker 1: little bit of mixed research as to whether, you know,
25:06
Speaker 1: schizophrenia patients had higher incidences of false autobiographical memories, but
25:11
Speaker 1: I think the majority of the research shows that they did.
25:14
Speaker 1: But the interesting thing across all the sources that I
25:17
Speaker 1: found was that people have extremely high confidence in these
25:22
Speaker 1: false memories when they do appear in psychotic episodes. So
25:27
Speaker 1: I just wanted to get your take on that, because
25:29
Speaker 1: I think that is I'm you know, after the research
25:32
Speaker 1: that I read. I'm unwilling to say it's a complete
25:35
Speaker 1: non possibility, and I don't want to feel any conspiracy theories.
25:41
Speaker 1: I'm just a scientist that wants to know what research
25:44
Speaker 1: do we have on this, and how clear is that
25:47
Speaker 1: research and how overwhelmingly convincing, you know, is it and
25:51
Speaker 1: it was pretty convincing the studies I read and the
25:54
Speaker 1: different ways that they studied it, both sort of in
25:56
Speaker 1: the laboratory as well as out in the real world.
26:00
Speaker 1: I found it to sort of all kind of triangulate
26:02
Speaker 1: to this idea that it's absolutely possible that people can
26:06
Speaker 1: experience that, and I think a lot of people have
26:08
Speaker 1: kind of maybe ran with it a little bit too much.
26:11
Speaker 1: But I wanted to get your opinion on that, since
26:13
Speaker 1: there's such a huge part of the population that is
26:18
Speaker 1: willing and I don't agree with this to say she
26:21
Speaker 1: didn't do it all together. I don't think we have
26:23
Speaker 1: any degree of certainty in that realm at all, and
26:26
Speaker 1: that we should be making those types of, you know,
26:29
Speaker 1: statements with certainty. So give me your opinion and expertise
26:34
Speaker 1: in that particular area.
26:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'd love if you send me the articles. Yeah,
26:39
Speaker 3: it was so hard to find any research on the
26:42
Speaker 3: Spartan home in general. I mean, our.
26:44
Speaker 4: Doctoral student seeds you yes, please, yes, now as the time,
26:50
Speaker 4: Now as the time right.
26:51
Speaker 1: I think I think journal editors are going to be
26:54
Speaker 1: primed to want to be publishing that, So any doc
26:56
Speaker 1: students you know out there, please yeah, you know, do
27:00
Speaker 1: do some research in this area. Like I said, the
27:03
Speaker 1: majority of their research is in schizophrenia, which fundamentally is
27:06
Speaker 1: a different architecture, right than postpartum psychosis. But there are
27:13
Speaker 1: you know, similar features of what psychosis can feel like
27:17
Speaker 1: among those populations, which include feeling like you're outside of
27:21
Speaker 1: your body, feeling like you're maybe in a dream like stay,
27:24
Speaker 1: not being sure how certain things.
27:27
Speaker 2: Happened, and if I'm.
27:30
Speaker 1: Particularly interested in this source and this attribution, which is
27:33
Speaker 1: what they seem to be particularly at risk for, which
27:36
Speaker 1: is seeing someone else do something and then attributing to
27:40
Speaker 1: yourself or someone telling you something and then you're thinking
27:44
Speaker 1: you did it. So what is really going on in
27:47
Speaker 1: the mind of people that are in a psychotic episode?
27:51
Speaker 1: What does it feel like for them? What are they thinking?
27:54
Speaker 1: You described command hallucinations, But talk to us a little
27:57
Speaker 1: bit more about the different features of being in a
28:00
Speaker 1: psychotic episode as one would.
28:01
Speaker 2: Experience and their memory of it. I'm very curious memory.
28:06
Speaker 3: There's a lot of differences, right, No psychotic person is
28:10
Speaker 3: like another, so it's difficult to polding half slated. But
28:15
Speaker 3: you know, one of the jobs I had was out
28:17
Speaker 3: of state hospital and for about seven years My office
28:21
Speaker 3: was a converted cell bedroom, and I was amongst people
28:25
Speaker 3: with sticks of Brennian and different psychotic disorders day in
28:28
Speaker 3: and day out thy years, and so I could see
28:32
Speaker 3: the real rage of the disorders. What I found was,
28:36
Speaker 3: I do think some of the patients had memories of
28:40
Speaker 3: standings that they did not do. Some were psycho psychotically
28:46
Speaker 3: placed memories. So they thought something was true that had
28:50
Speaker 3: been an hallucination or had been a delusion, and they
28:54
Speaker 3: still thought it was true and they couldn't shake it.
28:58
Speaker 3: But then a lot because I was there for so long,
29:02
Speaker 3: this is a state hospital, people don't leave. I got
29:05
Speaker 3: to know them, and as I could build pockets doubts,
29:11
Speaker 3: they were able to have more insight into what was
29:14
Speaker 3: true and what was not. And so one of my
29:18
Speaker 3: first supervisors told me, you measure treatment in a state hospital,
29:22
Speaker 3: not in the rule, but what the yards did, because
29:25
Speaker 3: time is what you need to figure out what you're
29:28
Speaker 3: burning and zoom right here with having medication and up say,
29:32
Speaker 3: they'll all ute on crimes that I worked with, but
29:36
Speaker 3: over time, and that's why I think that the Lindsay
29:39
Speaker 3: Clainsy trial doctors Isazelle being with her now sixty different
29:45
Speaker 3: meetings over this three year period and writington really exciting
29:49
Speaker 3: for her and the family being there. That's why I
29:52
Speaker 3: feel like there's truth to her doing the act because
29:57
Speaker 3: she's had processed time and she's had psygiatric down psychological
30:02
Speaker 3: treatments in the state hospital to clarify group views on this.
30:08
Speaker 3: So when it comes to the miss memories and the articles,
30:12
Speaker 3: I'd be really curious about the time spans of the
30:15
Speaker 3: mongative samples. For me, that was the biggest part when
30:19
Speaker 3: I was working with these INTI duels.
30:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, that you bring up a really good point there,
30:23
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, a handful of the studies,
30:26
Speaker 1: at least over half of them were you know, LA
30:28
Speaker 1: laboratory controlled experiments, So we have a clinically normal population,
30:32
Speaker 1: psychologically normal population and comparing them. Of course, we can't
30:37
Speaker 1: use random assignments, so we can't establish any kind of
30:39
Speaker 1: cause or effect to people who were had psychotic disorders
30:45
Speaker 1: and were still experiencing symptoms of these disorders and if
30:49
Speaker 1: they were able to, you know, experimentally sort of manipulate
30:53
Speaker 1: their memory, and what the majority of these cities found is, yes,
30:57
Speaker 1: their memories are quite a bit more malleable than ordinary
31:01
Speaker 1: psychological controls. So I think what we're trying to ultimately
31:06
Speaker 1: prove here is just reasonable doubt, really reasonable doubts that
31:11
Speaker 1: she was psychotic. I think there's not just reasonable doubt.
31:16
Speaker 1: I almost feel completely certain that she was. But I
31:20
Speaker 1: even have reasonable doubt that she did it all together.
31:24
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm in any way willing to stand
31:27
Speaker 1: out and put my hand on the Bible and say
31:29
Speaker 1: I'm going to die.
31:30
Speaker 2: On this hill.
31:31
Speaker 1: But I think there has been so much evidence introduced
31:36
Speaker 1: that because they're not trying to argue this sort of
31:39
Speaker 1: third party potential killer, it's not really making sense because
31:44
Speaker 1: it's not getting clarified, nobody's focusing on it. They're just
31:47
Speaker 1: little details that are kind of sporadically given here and
31:51
Speaker 1: there without any clarity to them. So when you have
31:54
Speaker 1: a lot of details that are being given and there's
31:58
Speaker 1: not clarity around them, that allows people to construct their
32:02
Speaker 1: own stories about and filling in the gaps of how
32:06
Speaker 1: these pieces of evidence could be related. So I want
32:10
Speaker 1: to hear you talk a little bit about why you
32:13
Speaker 1: think there are so many people and maybe it's just
32:18
Speaker 1: my algorithm. No, yeah, right, But overwhelmingly people are saying
32:29
Speaker 1: we're not We're not buying it. We're not buying it.
32:33
Speaker 1: So what do you think is going on there?
32:36
Speaker 3: Well, like you said, we all have enough evidence that's
32:41
Speaker 3: been giving quests in a really good way. And I
32:44
Speaker 3: think the prosecutors are not good at what they're doing.
32:48
Speaker 3: I don't think they're really good at it. And I
32:50
Speaker 3: also don't think the evidence is there which is questionable. Right,
32:54
Speaker 3: So we have all these moments of doubts and we
32:58
Speaker 3: fill them with our own production, on our own experience.
33:02
Speaker 3: When it comes to domestic violins, relationships and people looking
33:05
Speaker 3: at Patrick, a lot of people are projecting on in
33:08
Speaker 3: him and they'll watch his testimony and say, dude is
33:12
Speaker 3: old and callous and felt nothing. But you know, I
33:15
Speaker 3: had friends in the room when they played the nine
33:17
Speaker 3: on one call and he said that if you look
33:18
Speaker 3: like he's going to throw up, that you could feel
33:21
Speaker 3: his pain and his aims. So, but those aren't people
33:26
Speaker 3: that are in a trial, right, We're not fearing them
33:29
Speaker 3: talk about it. So I think there's a lot of
33:32
Speaker 3: projection going on because we've all struggled. We've all struggled
33:37
Speaker 3: with our babies, we've all had issues with our husbands
33:40
Speaker 3: at finds were partners, and we don't want to believe
33:44
Speaker 3: that this loving labor and delivery nurse who is sitting
33:48
Speaker 3: there in a wheelchair did such a violent act and
33:53
Speaker 3: ended the lives of orgeous children who don't want to
33:58
Speaker 3: believe it. And I think our brain will off can
34:00
Speaker 3: try and find any which way to not gold on
34:03
Speaker 3: to this duality, and it's very difficult right people are
34:08
Speaker 3: disciminement's especially with how stass social media does. I mean
34:12
Speaker 3: San Patrick as innocent on Monday to quite what people
34:15
Speaker 3: are calling him.
34:16
Speaker 1: A pet out now, I mean that's gross, gross defamation.
34:20
Speaker 1: I think, I think what's going on? You know, as
34:22
Speaker 1: an abuse survivor, domestic violence survivor, survivor of being married
34:26
Speaker 1: to someone with narcissistic personality disorder with potential anti social trades,
34:34
Speaker 1: there is a flare of my gut.
34:39
Speaker 2: That goes something.
34:40
Speaker 1: And as a relationship expert, relationship scientist now coach who
34:45
Speaker 1: held from all that trauma and is now able to
34:47
Speaker 1: help other people in terms of their attachment, there's a
34:52
Speaker 1: flare of my gut that he wasn't a good husband.
34:59
Speaker 2: That's my got intuition.
35:02
Speaker 1: When he said things like well, I don't really know,
35:04
Speaker 1: I wasn't really down involved when she was talking to
35:06
Speaker 1: doctor tests.
35:06
Speaker 2: I don't know what she was.
35:07
Speaker 1: Saying, right, That was my experience going through a major
35:12
Speaker 1: mental health crisis postpartum, with being given the cipro and
35:17
Speaker 1: having a drug interaction and having significant postpartum anxiety. My
35:25
Speaker 1: vulnerabilities were disgusting to her husband. And I think women
35:32
Speaker 1: are all over the world or feeling they're that that flair, right,
35:37
Speaker 1: But being a bad husband and not being that involved
35:41
Speaker 1: in her care doesn't mean that he murdered his children
35:44
Speaker 1: at the same time. Maybe he was having an affair,
35:46
Speaker 1: maybe he wasn't don't none of that has been really verified.
35:50
Speaker 1: That also doesn't mean that he necessarily killed his children.
35:54
Speaker 1: So I think there is something there. There's something right
36:00
Speaker 1: that women's intuition is picking up on. Where she's at
36:04
Speaker 1: the museum, He's just the kids are running around, and
36:07
Speaker 1: she's got the baby, and she's pushing the stroller, and
36:09
Speaker 1: Dawson's running everywhere in coorse in another direction, and he's
36:13
Speaker 1: just standing back there like I don't really care, right,
36:15
Speaker 1: And he did seem incredibly flat on the stand in
36:21
Speaker 1: terms of talking about his children, talking about his wife,
36:25
Speaker 1: moving on with a new person so quickly. So I
36:29
Speaker 1: think we need to separate that because I think there
36:33
Speaker 1: might be something there that he was, in his own
36:37
Speaker 1: way struggling with Lindsay's vulnerabilities. Maybe he wasn't that involved
36:45
Speaker 1: in her care in the beginning, and that would have
36:47
Speaker 1: made a difference if he was, or maybe if he
36:51
Speaker 1: had taken her more seriously when she said, I'm having
36:54
Speaker 1: these thoughts. If he would have been more involved, there
36:58
Speaker 1: could have been a different outcome.
36:59
Speaker 2: But we just can't.
37:00
Speaker 3: I know that.
37:00
Speaker 1: I think it's just more of a gut intuition level
37:03
Speaker 1: feeling that we're having that he's he wasn't a good husband.
37:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think people sometimes forget the timeline too,
37:10
Speaker 2: because he has happened in twenty twenty three. Yeah, so
37:13
Speaker 2: you know, he's three plus years removed from it. Not
37:16
Speaker 2: that that I'm saying, well, that's plenty of time to
37:19
Speaker 2: heal from it all. I don't think you ever heal
37:20
Speaker 2: from something like that, as tragic as it is, but
37:24
Speaker 2: you know, you can be pretty far removed at that
37:27
Speaker 2: point if you've already emotionally and relationally moved on, you know.
37:32
Speaker 2: And I think people are taking maybe a splot effect
37:35
Speaker 2: again I'm not assuming anything, but just his splot effect
37:38
Speaker 2: as you know, he's guilty, when in fact he he
37:41
Speaker 2: might just be emotionally checked out or emotionally moved on
37:44
Speaker 2: from it in the in whatever capacity you can do that,
37:48
Speaker 2: you know, because I can't imagine that you ever really could.
37:52
Speaker 2: I want to pivot here just because I'm very curious.
37:56
Speaker 2: This is still on the subject, but someone off the subject.
38:00
Speaker 2: Your experience on the Nancy Grace Show. And you know,
38:03
Speaker 2: I saw, yes, I s awesome clips there, and you know,
38:06
Speaker 2: I was just like, whoa uh, you know, and so
38:10
Speaker 2: I just want to get your your experience there and.
38:14
Speaker 3: What that was light.
38:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me just say I didn't like her, Auntie
38:17
Speaker 1: you it was really nasty. Yeah, I's because I've only
38:22
Speaker 1: been able to see clips. I'd been able to watch
38:25
Speaker 1: the whole thing. So tell us a little bit about
38:27
Speaker 1: your experience on Nancy Grace. What you found interesting, frustrating?
38:32
Speaker 1: You handle it like it, handled it beautifully, like a champ.
38:37
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think you know, Nancy has been
38:39
Speaker 3: in the field for a long time. I think one
38:41
Speaker 3: of the contents I was, you know, Nancy was old
38:44
Speaker 3: when I was young, and now.
38:48
Speaker 1: And she's still here, right, kind of look in the same.
38:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a.
38:51
Speaker 3: Changed a bit, but I think you know, she likes
38:55
Speaker 3: she she's thirsty, right, she wants to click, bea she
38:59
Speaker 3: wants to read. But also she's a prosecutor, and so
39:03
Speaker 3: it's this lens. We don't want to go leieve that
39:07
Speaker 3: there's anything other than cold blooded murder. And she doesn't
39:12
Speaker 3: want to ever have an attorney criticized as well, especially
39:15
Speaker 3: across Tuitor. And here we are criticizing these bobages. I
39:20
Speaker 3: mean the meetings I'm seeing on the internet just after
39:24
Speaker 3: I think there was fantastic. Yeah, but I think you know,
39:29
Speaker 3: I'm on cross examination, Austin, and so I'm very used
39:34
Speaker 3: to exactly what Kevin Reddington did to Jennifer Chats, Like
39:38
Speaker 3: if he came up, he found an opportunity to come
39:40
Speaker 3: up to that doctor on the stand, put his hand
39:43
Speaker 3: on her shoulder, golmber down, bring her emotions down, and
39:46
Speaker 3: then he attacked her with the note about fashion speech.
39:50
Speaker 3: And so I think we need to become very used
39:52
Speaker 3: to it in his field, that someone's always tripping you
39:56
Speaker 3: and that there's always going to be rage. And so
39:59
Speaker 3: I built the habit around maintaining my composure.
40:02
Speaker 1: And in interviews at that level, you wait a long
40:07
Speaker 1: time for your turn and then all of a sudden,
40:09
Speaker 1: it's like boom. You don't get really a lot of
40:11
Speaker 1: information about what you're going to experience or what they're
40:13
Speaker 1: going to ask you. It's all on the spot. It's
40:15
Speaker 1: all right there so quick, and you do have to
40:19
Speaker 1: be able to think on your feed very well, and
40:21
Speaker 1: you do have to be able to respond to hard questions.
40:25
Speaker 1: And it brings up an interesting point that we've been
40:27
Speaker 1: hearing about. And this is taking a little bit of
40:30
Speaker 1: a trail aside, but I think ultimately I'm going to
40:34
Speaker 1: bring this back to our point, which is when it's
40:37
Speaker 1: mental health care that we're in a field right now
40:41
Speaker 1: where faked expertise is very common. Anybody can look up
40:46
Speaker 1: something on AI and make a short video and sound
40:50
Speaker 1: incredibly credible, but your expertise is tested when you are
40:56
Speaker 1: on the spot, and experts that have to be treating
41:02
Speaker 1: patients that might be a hair away from a psychotic
41:06
Speaker 1: episode have to remain on their feet and on their
41:09
Speaker 1: toes and can't be glossing over or making mistakes in
41:13
Speaker 1: their notes. This is not something we can accept. As
41:17
Speaker 1: you know, being a director of clinical programs and just
41:21
Speaker 1: you know, it was an administrative role. I'm not a
41:23
Speaker 1: clinical psychologist. I did not do any of their clinical
41:28
Speaker 1: supervision or anything like that, but I know the emphasis
41:32
Speaker 1: that is put on your note taking, and to know
41:37
Speaker 1: that there could be have been errors that could literally
41:42
Speaker 1: have been the difference between her having a bipolar presentation
41:46
Speaker 1: and not, it's scary because that changes the picture. Let's
41:52
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that, because it is kind
41:56
Speaker 1: of a what we understand to be a well known
41:59
Speaker 1: fact that if you are bipolar, putting a bipolar person
42:03
Speaker 1: on a regular SSRI can make them worse. Do you
42:08
Speaker 1: think that they've established any evidence that she may have
42:11
Speaker 1: had some bipolar presentation?
42:14
Speaker 2: And that's definitely they have.
42:19
Speaker 3: Established in moments of mania, over exercise beyond that of
42:26
Speaker 3: anything a very very fit person would do, and then
42:31
Speaker 3: overly cleaning. But we established raising thoughts the journal of
42:36
Speaker 3: just these constant thoughts, my chart reaching out for providers,
42:41
Speaker 3: dozens of chines during the nights, all throughout the night,
42:45
Speaker 3: so there's a significant amount of things happening. Really tansass
42:51
Speaker 3: in her brain and you're asking for help and they
42:54
Speaker 3: It is portrayed in a variety of ways. They're trying
42:57
Speaker 3: to say it looks like an over controlling muff.
42:59
Speaker 1: But yeah, I grew up with a Bible or father,
43:03
Speaker 1: so I'm I'm I was leaning towards that too.
43:06
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, I've.
43:07
Speaker 1: Seen mania, I've seen what can come out of those episodes,
43:14
Speaker 1: and they're scary, and people don't really understand how much
43:22
Speaker 1: someone in that situation is suffering if you've never had
43:26
Speaker 1: a mental health crisis.
43:28
Speaker 2: In my goodness, I can.
43:29
Speaker 1: Too in my life how deep and scary the suffering is.
43:37
Speaker 1: In my post part of experience, I was sleeping about ten.
43:39
Speaker 2: Hours per week total.
43:41
Speaker 1: I had severe and extreme insomnia and what the mental
43:46
Speaker 1: degradation that can do.
43:49
Speaker 2: And you couple that with wake.
43:51
Speaker 1: Ups from babies in the middle of the night, right,
43:53
Speaker 1: so you're trying to get sleep. You can't really follow
43:57
Speaker 1: the sleep hygiene and the sleep guidelines because you are
44:00
Speaker 1: getting up with the child, maybe multiple children at that point,
44:03
Speaker 1: because you know her other middle child was still pretty young,
44:07
Speaker 1: and what that does to the mind to be suffering
44:13
Speaker 1: from insomnia with mental illness and having.
44:17
Speaker 2: A close pardon child.
44:19
Speaker 1: Talk to our audience about what you think was the
44:23
Speaker 1: depths of suffering in Lindsay at that point, and why
44:28
Speaker 1: did they all miss it?
44:31
Speaker 3: There was a lot of self gen and guilt with Lindsay,
44:35
Speaker 3: and you see that throughout her journals and in her phone.
44:38
Speaker 3: She kept she was writing in her notes at but
44:41
Speaker 3: she at one point she didn't want to start the
44:44
Speaker 3: meditation because she didn't want to stop breastfeeding. So don't
44:47
Speaker 3: mean that component of you know, she stopped in best
44:51
Speaker 3: feeding and she's gonna start the meditation and she's writing
44:54
Speaker 3: about how she feels horrible that it's not good for
44:58
Speaker 3: the baby. She feels horrible all about sleep, channeling the
45:01
Speaker 3: deity and hearing the baby cry. Her colleague testified to
45:05
Speaker 3: Lindsay wasn't the type of mom who left the Dante's
45:08
Speaker 3: cry ever, Like she was very involved and wanted to
45:12
Speaker 3: nurture them, and so's it goes to show how much
45:16
Speaker 3: she didn't want this to happen and didn't want this
45:20
Speaker 3: to be the outcome.
45:22
Speaker 1: What do you think about the testimony of Lindsay's mother
45:27
Speaker 1: when she got out there and she said Lindsay did
45:30
Speaker 1: confess to having these intrusive thoughts about harming the children
45:35
Speaker 1: and her subsequent treatment mental health care after that, and
45:40
Speaker 1: also what if any was her husband's role in supporting.
45:47
Speaker 2: Her during that in leaving terms of leaving her along
45:52
Speaker 2: with the children.
45:53
Speaker 3: Right, it was got wrenching to watch her mom up there,
45:57
Speaker 3: absolutely got wrenching. I think that the providers started educated
46:05
Speaker 3: Patrick and Lindsay's mom on what could happen, and there's
46:10
Speaker 3: a sincere lack of education. He may trusted that when
46:14
Speaker 3: she said she had thought supporting her children. Patrick followed
46:18
Speaker 3: up with a question of do you feel like you're
46:19
Speaker 3: safe with them? And she said yes, and he believed her.
46:23
Speaker 3: That was not somebody who's not very in tune with
46:26
Speaker 3: his wife. Maybe it's also you know, his mom there
46:31
Speaker 3: she didn't do anything either. And I think a lot
46:33
Speaker 3: of that the lack of education around the potential marn
46:37
Speaker 3: what I would call a violence risk assessment of violence
46:42
Speaker 3: risks or citatis on rates and unless you're seeing it
46:46
Speaker 3: or you're aware of it, you know, we're not thinking
46:49
Speaker 3: she's going to turn into Andrea Yates right right, But
46:53
Speaker 3: again that goes to show providers need to be responsible
46:56
Speaker 3: for educating their clients with something large d than the
47:00
Speaker 3: presentation a co active education as you gituade them was
47:05
Speaker 3: to turn, not to stare them, but to empower them
47:08
Speaker 3: to have the tools should things.
47:10
Speaker 2: Have them right.
47:11
Speaker 1: I often tell this audience that the discipline of psychology
47:15
Speaker 1: revolves around two prevaces, what usually happens and then what
47:21
Speaker 1: is possible? What can happen, and that we often have
47:25
Speaker 1: to take both of those things into account, and not
47:30
Speaker 1: just from a clinical sense, but really in every aspect
47:32
Speaker 1: of our discipline. When we conduct research, sometimes the question
47:36
Speaker 1: is well, what can happen, not what usually happens? What
47:39
Speaker 1: is possible? And then sometimes the question is well what
47:41
Speaker 1: usually happens? And it sounds like in this case they
47:44
Speaker 1: were relying on well what usually happens? Right, people might
47:47
Speaker 1: have these types of thoughts and then they never really
47:49
Speaker 1: manifest to a full blow up psychotic episode. And she
47:51
Speaker 1: is receiving treatment, people are monitoring her. Surely if she's
47:55
Speaker 1: gone to kill the kids, we're going to know and
47:57
Speaker 1: be able to keep her safe or commit her before.
48:00
Speaker 1: But we have found out that that is not true. Yeah,
48:04
Speaker 1: and advocating too, for the for the for the patient.
48:07
Speaker 1: Sometimes you know we're under this idea, like, you know,
48:11
Speaker 1: we have to advocate for ourselves, and obviously it's very
48:15
Speaker 1: obvious in Lindsay's case, that she couldn't always do that.
48:19
Speaker 1: And so I think too as providers, and and not
48:22
Speaker 1: to put it all on providers, because they're human too,
48:25
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, you guys are human beings. Then
48:28
Speaker 1: your flawed. But it's being able to actively encourage and
48:34
Speaker 1: educate that the person supports this, you know, when they
48:38
Speaker 1: can't advocate for themselves. And I think there's probably a
48:42
Speaker 1: lack of that too.
48:44
Speaker 3: And yeah, of the commons I'm seeing internationally are oh
48:50
Speaker 3: my god, is this really all mental health care works
48:53
Speaker 3: in America? Yeah? I mean, but people go look at
48:57
Speaker 3: how and works in other countries. I see, you can
49:00
Speaker 3: really see our flaws.
49:01
Speaker 2: I mean, you compare America to other countries and speak
49:05
Speaker 2: on that a little bit because I'm curious, like, so,
49:08
Speaker 2: what what do you see in other countries that are
49:11
Speaker 2: better or worse? I mean, obviously there's going to be
49:13
Speaker 2: some that are better some that are worse that what
49:15
Speaker 2: are some things you see?
49:18
Speaker 3: Well? I think the individualistic culture of America and our
49:21
Speaker 3: lack of socialized healthcare is a is a big thing.
49:25
Speaker 3: So you go to other countries and the care is
49:28
Speaker 3: wrapped up all together automatically one because it's free, and
49:32
Speaker 3: two because they help similar databases where they're all kind
49:35
Speaker 3: of wanting as teams and they support each other more.
49:39
Speaker 3: But I think there's also there's in other countries they
49:42
Speaker 3: honor the mother more, they honor the postpartner experience you have.
49:48
Speaker 3: I think it's Norway. You are maybe such a lend
49:51
Speaker 3: where you don't get one year of me that your
49:53
Speaker 3: partner gets it too. So yeah, you think there's this.
49:57
Speaker 3: You know, lind see a lot of anxiety going back
50:00
Speaker 3: to work. That pressure was further because she was writing
50:05
Speaker 3: notes to Jeffer Touss trying to get her her lead extinded.
50:10
Speaker 3: So she had this pressure of I need to go
50:12
Speaker 3: back to work, I need to have the money. But
50:16
Speaker 3: that doesn't happen in other countries. They did you postpart
50:19
Speaker 3: in the lead, they give you money.
50:21
Speaker 2: Yeah.
50:21
Speaker 1: I experienced the same thing, really having a difficulty going
50:27
Speaker 1: back to work, especially you know after a C section
50:31
Speaker 1: and subsequent surgeries that I had to have in complications
50:35
Speaker 1: from my birth. It was I mean I was still
50:40
Speaker 1: recovering for major abdominal surgery when I had to go
50:43
Speaker 1: back to work. And I think it's unacceptable in this
50:46
Speaker 1: country and simply You're right, this lack of provider communication
50:53
Speaker 1: and lack of teamwork where the right hand knows what
50:57
Speaker 1: the left hand is doing. I think anybody looking at
51:01
Speaker 1: Lindsay's medication list is literally going WTF. And then the
51:07
Speaker 1: other side are saying, well, she just wasn't medication compliant
51:10
Speaker 1: and that's her fault. But talk to us about when
51:13
Speaker 1: somebody maybe starts a medication and is experiencing negative side
51:18
Speaker 1: effects and how hard that might be to be compliant
51:23
Speaker 1: with medication that is potentially making you worse, because I
51:27
Speaker 1: think people are seeing this very black and white. She
51:30
Speaker 1: should have been very compliant with our meds and she
51:32
Speaker 1: didn't give them a chance, and YadA, YadA, YadA. So
51:35
Speaker 1: talk to us about what you notice when you work
51:39
Speaker 1: with and I know you don't prescribe medication, but you
51:42
Speaker 1: work with patients that are obviously on lots of medication.
51:44
Speaker 2: Talk to us about how difficult it is.
51:49
Speaker 1: To manage start understand what's happening to you when you
51:53
Speaker 1: can start psychiatric.
51:54
Speaker 2: She was on thirteen thirteen different medications. Is that fairly normal?
52:03
Speaker 3: I think that the proviters did not want to accept really,
52:07
Speaker 3: except that there was a genuine negative reaction some meditations.
52:11
Speaker 3: You know, when I take benadru I get wrap in
52:14
Speaker 3: heart rate and I get energy. They often get benadol
52:18
Speaker 3: to people to go to sleep and it works to them.
52:21
Speaker 3: But we have this world of psychiatry meditating Lindsay. But
52:27
Speaker 3: Lindsay is her own person and has her own world,
52:29
Speaker 3: and so it has to enough to apply it to
52:31
Speaker 3: the person, right, and symptoms are getting worse, they're changing.
52:37
Speaker 3: So we also have to remember that medications have a
52:41
Speaker 3: half life, and if somebody's having an adverse reaction to
52:44
Speaker 3: a medication, you don't know how long it's going to
52:47
Speaker 3: be in their body and the reaction is going to
52:51
Speaker 3: also be happening to them. There's no science around that.
52:55
Speaker 3: You know, you're not those gardens for two weeks or
52:57
Speaker 3: six months just because a book says so, we're all
53:00
Speaker 3: very different and so that's right. A lot of very
53:04
Speaker 3: intellent to people in the field of psychiatry and medicine
53:07
Speaker 3: have talked about the lab work that should have happened,
53:10
Speaker 3: the thyory lab work that should have happened. How is
53:13
Speaker 3: she metabolizing medications?
53:16
Speaker 2: You know, for the.
53:17
Speaker 3: Prosecution to say they don't want the jury to consider
53:22
Speaker 3: intoxication in what they're thinking about was ridiculous. And they
53:28
Speaker 3: said that today and it's because they said she hadn't
53:31
Speaker 3: taken that pill for three weeks. That doesn't matter. You
53:37
Speaker 3: don't know. You don't know how she folked, you don't
53:40
Speaker 3: know how it was engulged in her brain.
53:43
Speaker 4: Well, they're in their effects of coming off medications. Yeah,
53:46
Speaker 4: especially then zodiating withdrawal. That is one of the most
53:50
Speaker 4: severe forms of psychiatric medication withdrawal that we know of,
53:55
Speaker 4: zodiazepine withdrawal. And what it takes for a brain to
53:58
Speaker 4: become dependent of the zodia bees is about seven days,
54:03
Speaker 4: So dependence can happen in seven to fourteen days is
54:07
Speaker 4: generally what we see in terms of benzodiazepine dependence. And
54:11
Speaker 4: we're talking about someone who was prescribed multiple benzodiazepines at Avan, valuing,
54:20
Speaker 4: clonol zipam. Those are all essentially medications that try to
54:26
Speaker 4: increase GABBA in your brain. In GABA is, like I
54:29
Speaker 4: tell people, set the breaks of the nervous system right,
54:32
Speaker 4: So whenever you withdraw from a medication, your receptors have
54:36
Speaker 4: adapted to the presence of that medication and when you
54:38
Speaker 4: take that.
54:39
Speaker 2: Away, you.
54:41
Speaker 1: Then essentially it's like taking the breaks of your nervous
54:44
Speaker 1: system away, right, your nervous system is just allowed to
54:47
Speaker 1: run like a car with no brakes. And to think
54:51
Speaker 1: that she could have abruptly stopped so many medications and
54:57
Speaker 1: not having considered the site theatric fallout of that, to me,
55:02
Speaker 1: it's just mind bobbling.
55:04
Speaker 3: It's mind boggling, and it should be. And the fact
55:08
Speaker 3: that it's so clearly medical no practice is amazing that
55:15
Speaker 3: they continued for so long.
55:17
Speaker 2: And that was the civil lawsuits are very good to
55:21
Speaker 2: be Yeah, because that was gonna be the next question,
55:25
Speaker 2: at what point are these providers held accountable to some degree?
55:29
Speaker 2: What civil lawsuits makes sense, But what you couldn't.
55:34
Speaker 3: You couldn't see in that court room was every time
55:37
Speaker 3: a provider walked in and took the stands, the person
55:41
Speaker 3: between the provider and the jury was the provider's personal attorney.
55:46
Speaker 3: So they had every reason to say they didn't see psychosis.
55:52
Speaker 3: Because if she is found to be insane that the
55:57
Speaker 3: civil lawsuit, they're they're going to lose their licenses. Yeah, right,
56:01
Speaker 3: So we have to also remember, like everybody is very
56:05
Speaker 3: selfish protecting their own place yesn't at all.
56:10
Speaker 2: I agree.
56:12
Speaker 1: What assessment do you think doctor Tuff's missed or should
56:16
Speaker 1: have given Lindsay when she was meeting with her?
56:20
Speaker 3: Good question I had, and I'm curious to anybody who
56:22
Speaker 3: can speak to this in the comments. Did doctor Tuff
56:26
Speaker 3: see Lindsay at home? Did she had an office she
56:31
Speaker 3: was using until it opened? Because a lot of these
56:33
Speaker 3: psychiatry practices don't want to offer in person visits because
56:37
Speaker 3: they're in their home. They don't actually want a facility,
56:40
Speaker 3: and so that would be another incentive or another bias
56:44
Speaker 3: I guess to not boring on lineasy in person right
56:48
Speaker 3: because there's no where to bring her to. So I'd
56:50
Speaker 3: be very curious about like the availability in person and
56:53
Speaker 3: if that led to why be seventeen minute window visits
56:57
Speaker 3: on the phone?
56:58
Speaker 2: Were Joe? But I think there needs to be some
57:02
Speaker 2: stipulations around that in terms of providing, you know, if
57:05
Speaker 2: you're you know, if you're you know, providing care to
57:09
Speaker 2: someone who is potentially mental ill. I feel like that
57:14
Speaker 2: is neat like you need to see the person, Encrypson.
57:18
Speaker 2: It's too difficult to really gauge or measure that.
57:21
Speaker 1: Over what you know we're doing, right, right now, And
57:24
Speaker 1: there's plenty of psychological assessments that can't be done outside
57:27
Speaker 1: of being in person because there are things to manipulate
57:31
Speaker 1: and show down that I couldn't necessarily.
57:33
Speaker 2: Do long screen. Yeah, there's so many things falling wrong here.
57:37
Speaker 3: I think a great example is when they asked do
57:39
Speaker 3: you think you would have learned more if it had
57:42
Speaker 3: been in person? And she said no. That is the
57:45
Speaker 3: biggest bat side of that hard. I mean, you literally
57:49
Speaker 3: can hide symons from the least down. If you're fidgeting
57:53
Speaker 3: and your hands are down there, it's just fidgeting, but
57:57
Speaker 3: it's anxiety, it's wraps lessness. There's so much. Is the
58:01
Speaker 3: foot tapping? How's the burneating rate? Is it belly? Is
58:04
Speaker 3: it chess?
58:05
Speaker 2: You know?
58:06
Speaker 3: Was she clutching something in her hands?
58:08
Speaker 2: People?
58:09
Speaker 3: If you could distressed but minimizing it once she was
58:11
Speaker 3: explaining it. So the fact that we don't have full
58:14
Speaker 3: body analysis of these psychiatrists throwing meditations at that was
58:20
Speaker 3: also Flagbard asking.
58:22
Speaker 2: To me, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, we got to do something.
58:26
Speaker 2: That's how I feel like having this conversations, Like, my
58:29
Speaker 2: mind just goes to what do we do? What do
58:33
Speaker 2: we do collectively? You know, what do we do for
58:37
Speaker 2: our fellow female.
58:39
Speaker 1: If it does start with policy, what might that policy
58:41
Speaker 1: really look like? I think this is a good way
58:43
Speaker 1: to maybe you wrap up the episode. Where do we
58:45
Speaker 1: need to go from here in terms of policy, because
58:48
Speaker 1: that is one thing that the average citizen can advocate
58:51
Speaker 1: for is for policy. We may not have any ability
58:57
Speaker 1: to change anything that happened in this particular case other
59:01
Speaker 1: than making sure that our representatives understand that this failure
59:09
Speaker 1: of the system has not been the first time, like
59:13
Speaker 1: they won't be the last time, especially if we don't
59:15
Speaker 1: do something. So what does that potential policy change look like?
59:20
Speaker 3: You know, I would say, based on how our current
59:22
Speaker 3: climent is in America, that you start small and you
59:26
Speaker 3: go to your local hospitals and want you know, you
59:29
Speaker 3: speak to people who are accessible. So if you go
59:32
Speaker 3: to your liberal hospital and you want to you can
59:35
Speaker 3: call for a meeting with the administrative staff then ask
59:39
Speaker 3: them about their policy and how they can improve it.
59:43
Speaker 3: And so what we can all do individually is, you know,
59:46
Speaker 3: put our hands right on our own hospitals that we
59:49
Speaker 3: are and only not and start there because it can't
59:52
Speaker 3: move them out.
59:53
Speaker 5: Of the indication and they can't move them out with
59:56
Speaker 5: how the VA policy works of giant, mountainous worlds, but
1:00:01
Speaker 5: we can move what we mean on intiddy It's usually
1:00:04
Speaker 5: are smaller hospitals and clinics and you can ask the
1:00:08
Speaker 5: right questions and hold people are terrible.
1:00:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, And lobbying I think, you know, reaching out to
1:00:14
Speaker 2: your local senators. I mean, obviously the government. It always
1:00:19
Speaker 2: kind of feels itchy to me personally, you know, to
1:00:22
Speaker 2: have to rely on the government anyway. But you know,
1:00:26
Speaker 2: I think that we have to start somewhere. And if
1:00:29
Speaker 2: funding is an issue, then how do we create more funding?
1:00:32
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you're right. One of the very
1:00:34
Speaker 2: first things you said in the episode is it really
1:00:36
Speaker 2: comes down to money. So how do we how do
1:00:39
Speaker 2: we get more money? How do we how do we
1:00:40
Speaker 2: fund this?
1:00:41
Speaker 3: Yeah?
1:00:42
Speaker 2: How do you even start there?
1:00:44
Speaker 1: Then the government has to decide to give the money
1:00:46
Speaker 1: there nice, right, And so I think we have to
1:00:48
Speaker 1: backtrack and say it's us communicating our walts and needs
1:00:53
Speaker 1: to the people that represent us.
1:00:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're not going to change health insurance, right,
1:00:58
Speaker 3: And we're about to enter the trial for aging and ngony,
1:01:01
Speaker 3: and that is going to keep this conversation going, which
1:01:04
Speaker 3: is incredible timing, but health insurance is a big part
1:01:10
Speaker 3: of how providers to showmen what they do health people
1:01:13
Speaker 3: when they do it, if they're getting paid. Yeah, I
1:01:16
Speaker 3: mean when I charge across we're at the ircupy it,
1:01:19
Speaker 3: I did one hundred.
1:01:20
Speaker 2: And thirteen dollars an hour. That's insane. That is insane.
1:01:24
Speaker 2: That's insane. So well, thank you, doctor Leslie. You have
1:01:28
Speaker 2: been a wealth of knowledge. Yes, I know that you're
1:01:31
Speaker 2: raising money for right well, yes, tell us about that.
1:01:36
Speaker 2: Tell us about the T shirts. Yeah, your T shirts
1:01:39
Speaker 2: you got there.
1:01:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm working by a local company where they do
1:01:42
Speaker 3: print on demand and so we pay your shirt.
1:01:45
Speaker 2: Don't be a bo bib. Yeah, I love it.
1:01:48
Speaker 3: It's so I sold a lot. And so I'm just
1:01:52
Speaker 3: giving the money to Lindsay's parents because they're staying in
1:01:55
Speaker 3: a hotel and they've been doing this for three years.
1:01:58
Speaker 3: And you know, she worked at weight Watchers and she's
1:02:01
Speaker 3: retired and then her husbands I don't remember, like a
1:02:05
Speaker 3: school photographer, I think, right, a photographer. So I mean,
1:02:09
Speaker 3: this isn't something that I don't think anyone sharing nana
1:02:12
Speaker 3: into well, and you know, go fund me also cannot
1:02:16
Speaker 3: be used towards legal fees and so I know they
1:02:19
Speaker 3: raised a million dollars on it to fund me, but
1:02:21
Speaker 3: they still to be the lawyers.
1:02:23
Speaker 2: Right, So where can people go to buying your T shirt?
1:02:27
Speaker 2: Because I'm going to go buy one.
1:02:30
Speaker 3: It's it's really linked in my stories, my Instagram and tikclock.
1:02:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got put it in our show notes. Yeah,
1:02:37
Speaker 2: for sure. Are definitely they're very cute. It's just don't
1:02:39
Speaker 2: be a bull bitch because.
1:02:40
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, right, I think the prosecutors had been
1:02:47
Speaker 1: utterly disgusting in this case and have done nothing but
1:02:52
Speaker 1: to just try to manipulate and play on the emotions
1:02:57
Speaker 1: of everybody they have because they have no evidence. That's
1:03:01
Speaker 1: just been my personal opinion, and I know you feel
1:03:03
Speaker 1: strongly about that. So we want to thank you doctor
1:03:06
Speaker 1: Dobson for being on here's giving us your clinical expertise
1:03:09
Speaker 1: and post part of psychosis and in forensic psychology. We
1:03:12
Speaker 1: aim for this episode to really educate listeners on the
1:03:17
Speaker 1: critical tragedies that can occur when we when we don't
1:03:20
Speaker 1: get the mental health care that we need. So we
1:03:23
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on here, and we
1:03:25
Speaker 1: will put your social media and your T shirts on
1:03:29
Speaker 1: our show notes so that people can discover you. I
1:03:32
Speaker 1: discover your analysis of this case as it's ongoing, as
1:03:36
Speaker 1: well as potentially be able to support Lindsay's family with
1:03:39
Speaker 1: the proceeds.
1:03:40
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so thank you. I appreciate it.
1:03:42
Speaker 3: If I can bug one thing, absolutely because my publisher
1:03:46
Speaker 3: will show me if I don't get it published. I
1:03:49
Speaker 3: published my book today.
1:03:55
Speaker 1: I have a really big book deal with Penguin. You're
1:03:57
Speaker 1: in the house and I'm going through the process. I'm
1:03:59
Speaker 1: just writing my he scripted, so I know what a
1:04:03
Speaker 1: huge deal this is.
1:04:04
Speaker 2: So congratulations. Just tell us about your book really greatly.
1:04:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's probably leaves the parts because a couple
1:04:11
Speaker 3: of years ago I had a viralty Pop Woord said
1:04:14
Speaker 3: I wouldn't read my shopping part. I wouldn't return my
1:04:16
Speaker 3: shopping part if my kids were in a car, the
1:04:19
Speaker 3: grocers were in a car, and I did feel safe.
1:04:22
Speaker 3: And so I've subsequently had so many death threats the
1:04:26
Speaker 3: FBI and it's get involved. I now have a dog
1:04:29
Speaker 3: from Subia, I can see and carry a weapon, and
1:04:34
Speaker 3: I'm became the target because of the shopping part. And
1:04:38
Speaker 3: so the book is about how to be aware of
1:04:42
Speaker 3: your intubution and your gut and when to turn against
1:04:45
Speaker 3: a social MILRM because you're trusting your instinct and your
1:04:48
Speaker 3: gut and you're keeping yourself safe.
1:04:50
Speaker 2: I'm going to definitely get a copy.
1:04:52
Speaker 1: We will put that information of where people can get
1:04:54
Speaker 1: a copy of that book and our showdowns as well.
1:04:57
Speaker 1: So congratulations on your book publication. Thank you so much
1:05:00
Speaker 1: for being an advocate for women and women's mental health care.
1:05:04
Speaker 1: And we have really enjoyed this episode, so we will
1:05:06
Speaker 1: be in touch. Thank you so much, doctor DLPS.
1:05:08
Speaker 2: Thank you, and thank you to each and every one
1:05:11
Speaker 2: of you that tuned in today. Please continue to listen,
1:05:13
Speaker 2: like subscribe leaves the comment we want to hear from you,
1:05:16
Speaker 2: and until like time, peace, love, good perspective.