Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / NEWBORN DEAD After Mom 'Mistakenly' Bakes Baby in Oven

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NEWBORN DEAD After Mom 'Mistakenly' Bakes Baby in Oven · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grease. Have you ever accidentally burned yourself?
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Speaker 1: Because the other night they are I burned myself twice
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Speaker 1: in one night cooking dinner, and it really hurt. You know,
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Speaker 1: it takes a really long time for burn marks scars
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Speaker 1: to go away. They are some of the most painful
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Speaker 1: injuries that I have ever observed with crime victims. I'm
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Speaker 1: also thinking about my children, John, David and Lucy here
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Speaker 1: are now sixteen, believe it or not, at age one month,
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Speaker 1: how helpless they were. A beautiful little girl, Zariyah is dead,
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Speaker 1: her body one month old, covered in burns. I often
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Speaker 1: see where moms or dads put their child in scalding
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Speaker 1: hot water, believe it or not, unintentionally, not realizing how
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Speaker 1: hot the water is. In fact, there are mandates and
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Speaker 1: health directives about how hot or cool you should have
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Speaker 1: the water in your home for that very reason, because
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Speaker 1: children can't turn the water faucet for themselves. So why
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Speaker 1: is one month old baby girl Zariyah dead and covered
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Speaker 1: in burns? Not because of accidental scalding because her mother
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Speaker 1: put her in the oven to bake let it sink in.
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Speaker 1: A one month old baby girl covered in horrific burns
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Speaker 1: put alive in the oven to bake. I, Nancy Grace,
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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
2:31
Speaker 1: here at Crime Stories and on series XEM one eleven.
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Speaker 1: I have an all star panel to make sense of
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Speaker 1: what we are learning. But first listen to this.
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Speaker 2: Mariah Thomas mother calls Mariah's father daily about one pm,
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Speaker 2: and Friday is no different. However, when she calls on
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Speaker 2: this day, she tells him something is wrong with the
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Speaker 2: baby and he needs to hurry home. Mariah's father, Zariah's grandfather,
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Speaker 2: arrives at the house before first responders, smell smoke and
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Speaker 2: runs to the baby's crib. He sees that baby Zariah
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Speaker 2: looks burned. He picks her up, realizes his granddaughter is
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Speaker 2: dead and asks Mariah what happened. Mariah Thomas says she
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Speaker 2: was putting Zariah down for a nap and thought she
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Speaker 2: put her in the crib, but accidentally put her in
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Speaker 2: the oven.
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Speaker 1: BS technical legal term. B S. You put a baby
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Speaker 1: in the oven and turn it on and you thought
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Speaker 1: it was the crib. Oh h double l n oh,
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Speaker 1: that's not flying for me again with me an all
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Speaker 1: star panel to make sense of what we know, and
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Speaker 1: I want to go first straight to Amanda Jen breaking
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Speaker 1: news investigative reporter at The Daily Beast. Amanda, thank you
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Speaker 1: for being with us. Is it true the little girl's
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Speaker 1: clothes melted to her diaper?
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Speaker 3: Yes, that is true. When the police arrived, they found
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Speaker 3: that her one sie that she was wearing had melted
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Speaker 3: and fused to the diaper because of the burn.
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Speaker 1: Aman, again, what do you know about what happened? Bring
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Speaker 1: me up to the point where the defendant, Mariah Thomas,
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Speaker 1: aged twenty six, old enough to know better. This is
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Speaker 1: not a juvenile mom, a mom that got pregnant when
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Speaker 1: she was eleven or twelve. This is a twenty six
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Speaker 1: year old, grown woman that I would like to report
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Speaker 1: posted many many times before the baby was born. Uh,
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Speaker 1: I'm tired of being pregnant. Blah blah blah. Take me
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Speaker 1: up to the moment her father shows up and smells
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Speaker 1: something burning. That something burning would be the baby.
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Speaker 3: What we know is that that morning that this horrible
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Speaker 3: incident occurred, be parents had left Mariah and baby Zarah
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Speaker 3: in the house alone. They all lived together. Mariah and
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Speaker 3: her daughter were living with the baby's grandparents, and they
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Speaker 3: often left Mariah and the baby at home while the
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Speaker 3: mother went to work, while the father went out to
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Speaker 3: look for work. So this should have been a day
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Speaker 3: like any other. I spoke to one of Mariah's close
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Speaker 3: friends who had been friends with her for years, who
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Speaker 3: told me that she had spoken to Mariah the night
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Speaker 3: before and that Mariah had reported not sleeping well, she
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Speaker 3: was really tired. She woke up and she just wasn't
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Speaker 3: feeling her best. So when she was home alone, we
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Speaker 3: know that the parents were out of the house, that is,
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Speaker 3: the baby's grandparents were out of the house, so Mariah
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Speaker 3: and the baby were left alone.
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Speaker 1: Let me follow up on a few things that you
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Speaker 1: have just said. Joining me special guest Amanda Yan, investigative
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Speaker 1: journalists with breaking news at the Daily Base. Amanda In
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Speaker 1: a friend of defendant twenty six year old Mariah, spoke
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Speaker 1: with Mariah Thomas the night before the baby was killed
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Speaker 1: and said that Mariah Thomas, the mother, did not quote
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Speaker 1: feel her best. Is that correct?
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Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct.
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Speaker 1: Did the friend mention any homicidal ideation, any out of
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Speaker 1: control behavior, anything like that at all? Was at a
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Speaker 1: normal conversation except the mom was tired.
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Speaker 3: Nothing in their conversation that was reported to me, showed
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Speaker 3: any sign of intent of harming the baby. When I
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Speaker 3: spoke to the close friend, the friend did say that.
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Speaker 1: She was shocked straight out to special guests joining us
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Speaker 1: renowned psychiatrist doctor Angela Arnold. You can find her at
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Speaker 1: Angela Arnold MD dot com out of the Atlanta jurisdiction.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Angie, We're always shocked. I'm always shocked with every
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Speaker 1: child abuse or child homicide. I'm shocked. I've been doing
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Speaker 1: this since i became a crime victim myself many years ago.
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Speaker 1: I'm never not shocked. And if you ask the neighbor,
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Speaker 1: or the best friend, or the person that says beside
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Speaker 1: them at church or synagogue, they're all shocked, all right,
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Speaker 1: everybody to drop off of the pickup. I can't believe it.
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Speaker 1: I'm shocked, yes, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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Speaker 1: Believe me, I'm using air quotas. I know you can't
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Speaker 1: see me, doctor Angie. But a lot of nice people
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Speaker 1: torture children and abuse them and hurt them and in
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Speaker 1: this case kill them. I think it's a big red Jackie.
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Speaker 1: I need a red flag, a big red flag being
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Speaker 1: waved when somebody says I'm so sick of being pregnant? Flag,
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Speaker 1: I can the baby come? I mean, yeah, I was
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Speaker 1: tired carrying twins, but I didn't blame the babies.
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Speaker 4: And Nancy, this baby was only one month old. There
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Speaker 4: are several red flags here. First of all, I wonder
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Speaker 4: why this girl was ever left alone with the baby.
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Speaker 1: Number one, She's not a girl, I believe I pointed
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Speaker 1: out to you, yes at the gego doctor Angie, this
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Speaker 1: is a woman going on thirty. She is a grown woman.
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Speaker 1: She's twenty six about day at twenty seven. She's not
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Speaker 1: a girl. Okay, well, you.
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Speaker 4: Know, Nancy, she's twenty six and she lives with her parents.
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Speaker 4: So to me, that's a red flag. Also, why is
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Speaker 4: a twenty six year old who just had a baby
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Speaker 4: living with her parent?
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Speaker 1: Maybe because the parents were helping her? Okay, may my
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Speaker 1: mom and dad came up and stayed with me for
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Speaker 1: months after I gave birth to the twins. And I'm
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Speaker 1: not going to tell you how old I was when
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Speaker 1: I gave birth.
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Speaker 4: But she was living with them, and if they were
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Speaker 4: there to quote unquote help her, then perhaps she should
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Speaker 4: have never been left alone with the baby.
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Speaker 1: You know, doctor Anne, I really respect you and I'm
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Speaker 1: very proud for you about your recent honor where everybody
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Speaker 1: in your jurisdiction voted for you as one of the
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Speaker 1: prominent psychiatrists in your area. But pointing the finger at
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Speaker 1: the grandparents is not working. It's not working for me.
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Speaker 1: They didn't put the baby in the oven. Mommy, mommy
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Speaker 1: put the baby in the oven. And not only that,
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Speaker 1: I mean help me out here. Wayne S. Promisel, former
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Speaker 1: detective sergeant, Special Victims unit owner Compass Investigative Services in Leland,
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Speaker 1: North Carolina. Not just put the baby in the oven.
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Speaker 1: You think the baby turned the oven on herself one
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Speaker 1: month old Ziiah, No, mommy had to turn that oven on.
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Speaker 1: How the hey do you think it's a crib when
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Speaker 1: you have to turn it to three point fifty?
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Speaker 5: That is BS, I would agree with you. And a
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Speaker 5: primary focus other than what we've read in the news
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Speaker 5: links about the crime scene processing pretty much speaks for
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Speaker 5: how Zavaiah past. The focus is on that oven that
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Speaker 5: is the crime scene, and certainly a police focus in
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Speaker 5: mindset is right away understanding that a defense that's going
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Speaker 5: to come forward very quickly is what you've been What
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Speaker 5: people are circling around mental health this defect disability versus
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Speaker 5: the intention which you're stressing, the conscious actions of turning
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Speaker 5: on the oven, placing the child in the oven, and
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Speaker 5: then living through the pain that you earlier described you
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Speaker 5: went through just burning yourself cooking my promisel.
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Speaker 1: Can I just stop you one moment, sir? Certainly, and
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Speaker 1: you have a stellar reputation, Thank you, mister Promisel. You
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Speaker 1: know what I would force Jurys to do the same
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Speaker 1: thing I would force myself to do. Because it's easy
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Speaker 1: for us to read the headline. Let's see what's the
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Speaker 1: headline right here that I was looking up? Earlier headline
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Speaker 1: in Deli mail. Missouri mom twenty six charged with baking
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Speaker 1: her kneborn baby daughter to death in an oven all
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Speaker 1: caps after mistaking kitchen appliants for infant's crib, leaving torture
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Speaker 1: girls clothes melted to her diaper. Okay, I read the
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Speaker 1: headline and I stopped right there. You know why, promise el,
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Speaker 1: because I don't want to think about a baby. I
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Speaker 1: almost said my baby, but I'm not. I can I'm
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Speaker 1: not going to go there at one month, opening the oven,
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Speaker 1: putting your baby on the rack, closing the oven, and
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Speaker 1: cranking it up to four hundred. I don't want to
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Speaker 1: think about that baby in the oven as it gets
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Speaker 1: hotter and hotter, and the baby is screaming, screaming as
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Speaker 1: her clothes melt until she is burned dead. How long
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Speaker 1: did it take? Five minutes, ten minutes, twenty minutes, an
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Speaker 1: hour in an oven? I can't even stand a small space,
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Speaker 1: the baby in the oven, screaming, crying, thrashing, melting. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: it's easy, isn't it, Wayne Promisel, to think about Oh
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Speaker 1: did you hear doctor Angie say, oh, well, they should
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Speaker 1: never left the mom there with the baby. That's bs
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Speaker 1: think about the baby, promise, Sell.
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Speaker 5: I hear you loud and clear, Nancy, and I can't
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Speaker 5: disagree with anything you just listed. However, I will say this,
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Speaker 5: I'm not here to provide nor did I ever try
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Speaker 5: to provide defenses. But my investigative focus, my detectives investigative focus,
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Speaker 5: is gathering that corroboration that leads to the ultimate question,
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Speaker 5: and is this a premeditated and or other type of impairment?
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Speaker 5: I mean, we look at the charge, and that's Kansas
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Speaker 5: City's basic charge for the cruelty, but such other things.
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Speaker 5: Was she actually alone that day? We would need to look,
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Speaker 5: We need to do a thorough investigation, make sure she
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Speaker 5: was in fact alone that day. That no mention of
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Speaker 5: the father of this child. Not that it comes in
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Speaker 5: because she made the statement she was there and responsible
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Speaker 5: at the time. But police focus emotions somewhat detached or
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Speaker 5: focused on grabbing and corroborating the evidence that supports what
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Speaker 5: ultimately happened to Zariah.
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Speaker 1: Well, you're right, You're right, Wayne Promisel, and that's why
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Speaker 1: you have your own detective agency. You're right. All of
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Speaker 1: those facts have to be analyzed because if I believe
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Speaker 1: that this mother is insane, I would never agree to
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Speaker 1: her having a guilty verdict or a guilty plea. If
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Speaker 1: she is insane, she needs to go to treatment and
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Speaker 1: stay there for the rest of her life. I don't
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Speaker 1: mean treatment for six months and then get out. I
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Speaker 1: mean treatment for six months and if you're well, then
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Speaker 1: you go to jail.
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Speaker 5: Well, one thing, if I could, Nancy, I would just
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Speaker 5: circle back to what doctor Angie said in respect to
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Speaker 5: not blaming the parents. But interviews are a very important
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Speaker 5: part profile of Mariah's history, very important. So I would
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Speaker 5: just say with respect to the emotionality is if the
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Speaker 5: parents knew of known diagnoses of Mariah. Then doctor Angie's
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Speaker 5: comment not blaming the parents but being cognizant.
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Speaker 1: I'd like to point something out following up on what
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Speaker 1: you're saying. Mariah Thomas, aged twenty six, the mom that
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Speaker 1: put the baby in the oven to die. She's in
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Speaker 1: GP right now, general population. What does that mean to me?
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Speaker 1: That means she has not been diagnosed with any mental
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Speaker 1: disorder that would preclude her from being in general population. Sidney,
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Speaker 1: could you check that place. I want to make absolutely
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Speaker 1: sure we know nothing about her being on the med board.
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Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Also joining me is bernarda
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Speaker 1: the Alone, high profile criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor.
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Speaker 1: You can find her at the Alone of law dot com. Bernardo,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I know you're defending now,
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Speaker 1: but is there ever point during all of your prosecutions,
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Speaker 1: your investigations, and you're defending that you don't know whether
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Speaker 1: it be spitting fire mad or just sit down and
16:23
Speaker 1: start crying.
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Speaker 6: So, Nancy, even when I went on the criminal defense side,
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Speaker 6: I still said there were certain cases that I would
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Speaker 6: not take and this is one of those cases, having
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Speaker 6: to deal with the death of a child.
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Speaker 4: Here.
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Speaker 6: We have one of the most outrageous type of cases.
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Speaker 6: We're talking about a one month old baby that was killed.
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Speaker 6: I have so many questions and I want to know
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Speaker 6: what is in on her phone, what's the search history
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Speaker 6: on her phone? What text messages does she set because
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Speaker 6: we know that she did not give a statement to
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Speaker 6: law enforcement.
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Speaker 1: Hey, you just brought us something really good, BERNARDA not
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Speaker 1: that everything you said wasn't good, and you're right, but
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Speaker 1: I want to follow up on that before I go
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Speaker 1: to Paula Road, Former Defects Department, Family Children's Services CPS,
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Speaker 1: Child Protective Services. I want you to hear this what
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Speaker 1: first responders find when they get to the homelessen.
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Speaker 7: First responders arrived to what they think is a call
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Speaker 7: for an infant who is in breathing, but instead find
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Speaker 7: Mariah Thomas, father holding Zariyah. He hands Zariah to a
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Speaker 7: Kansas City Fire Department first responder, who determines the baby
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Speaker 7: is dead. Zariah has what appears to be thermal injuries
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Speaker 7: on various parts of her body. She's wearing a bodysuit
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Speaker 7: over a diaper, but the clothing appears to have melted
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Speaker 7: into the diaper and it appears very dirty, possibly burned
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Speaker 7: on the backside. A baby blanket with significant burn marks
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Speaker 7: is found in the living room.
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Speaker 1: We keep hearing she the mother Mariah. Twenty six year
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Speaker 1: old Mariah Thomas did not give a statement. Oh no,
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Speaker 1: it's not because she is comatose with grief. It's because
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Speaker 1: she sized her Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. You
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Speaker 1: want to tell me this lady's insane? Uh uh No,
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Speaker 1: She hears from Miranda Rights and goes, yeah, you know what,
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Speaker 1: I'm not talking. Listen.
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Speaker 2: The three adult family members are separated and interviewed separately.
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Speaker 2: Mariah Thomas's parents say everything was normal when they left
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Speaker 2: that morning. Mother and daughter both seem to be in
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Speaker 2: good spirits. According to police records, the mother and father
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Speaker 2: essentially tell the police the same story, but when it
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Speaker 2: comes time for Mariah Thomas to be interviewed, she is
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Speaker 2: advised of her Miranda rights and invokes her right not
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Speaker 2: to speak. The interview ends, but she agrees to sign
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Speaker 2: consent searches for detectives to obtain a blood draw and
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Speaker 2: access her phone data.
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Speaker 1: Wow. I wonder if she had figured out that cops
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Speaker 1: can get that information with a search warrant. It's just
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Speaker 1: like you can get a search warrant on the phone
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Speaker 1: or the sitting magistrate, So that could be obtained very easily.
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Speaker 1: A blood draw is obtainable with a search warrant. Getting
19:02
Speaker 1: someone's phone is obtainable with a search warrant. You know,
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Speaker 1: it's not obtainable a statement from the defendant, suspect, target,
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Speaker 1: person of interest. Can't get a warrant for that because
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Speaker 1: you have a right, an absolute right under the US
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Speaker 1: Constitution Fifth Amendment, to remain silent and not incriminate yourself.
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Speaker 1: So she is if she's crazy, she's crazy like a
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Speaker 1: fox because she knew to stay quite once she heard
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Speaker 1: those Miranda rights. Anybody want to jump on that because
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Speaker 1: I find that highly highly suspicious. Of course, at trial,
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Speaker 1: the prosecutor, let's just pretend it's me cannot argue that
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Speaker 1: in front of the jury, because that's a comment on
19:51
Speaker 1: the defendant's right to remain silent. If you mentioned that
19:55
Speaker 1: in closing arguments or at any time during the case,
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Speaker 1: that's a mistrial, and it may be with prejudice. In
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Speaker 1: other words, you don't get a second swing at the ball.
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Speaker 1: Don't screw that up. So not only can she remain
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Speaker 1: silent as she chose to do, but that cannot be
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Speaker 1: commented upon at trial by the state or its reversible error.
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Speaker 1: I want to go to Paula ROADI joining me child
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Speaker 1: abuse welfare consultant and expert, former child Protected Services abuse investigator.
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Speaker 1: You can find her at Paula Roady Consulting, LLC. And
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Speaker 1: I want to point something else out about Paula Roady.
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Speaker 1: She wasn't just with child protective services. She was CPS
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Speaker 1: in Orange County, California. To put it euphemistically, never a
20:51
Speaker 1: lack of business. There are about three million people there
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Speaker 1: and she did child protective services there. I'm telling you
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Speaker 1: you had your work cut out for you. Paula Road,
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Speaker 1: I want to hear your thoughts on this because if
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Speaker 1: she's fine the morning when the parents leave, they're in
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Speaker 1: good spirits, everything's okay. She dressed the baby in diepies
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Speaker 1: and a onesie.
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Speaker 4: What I would say that in terms of looking at
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Speaker 4: this through the child Protective services lens, you know, we
21:20
Speaker 4: look at safety and we look at risk factors, and
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Speaker 4: one of the safety red flags safety threats that I
21:28
Speaker 4: heard is potentially her statement about I'm so sick of
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Speaker 4: being pregnant, so any type of comments posting, you know,
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Speaker 4: anything she's expressing to others that describe that baby, that
21:44
Speaker 4: precious little baby in negative terms, in a negative way,
21:48
Speaker 4: is a safety threat in terms of risk factors? What
21:53
Speaker 4: would be an objective appraisal of the likelihood that this
21:58
Speaker 4: parent will mal treat the child?
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Speaker 1: Can you say that again? Place? I got to let
22:03
Speaker 1: it so ken that about the appraisal?
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Speaker 4: What so when we do a risk assessment?
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Speaker 1: When do you do a risk assessment? Does somebody do
22:11
Speaker 1: a risk assessment on me? When I gave birth? Because
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Speaker 1: I was not asking anything that I recall? When are
22:17
Speaker 1: you called in to do a risk assessment?
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Speaker 4: Well, that's that's what CPS does when they when they
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Speaker 4: are involved. But so I'm what I want to speak
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Speaker 4: to is what is the history that because the risk
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Speaker 4: assessment is all based on historical information about Mariah and
22:34
Speaker 4: and the father or the even the if she's living
22:39
Speaker 4: with her parents, it would look at that whole healsehold.
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Speaker 4: So you know, for example, have there been prior investigations,
22:47
Speaker 4: what are the number of children in the home, What
22:50
Speaker 4: are the characteristics of Mariah? Does she have mental health history?
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Speaker 4: As we're questioning, are there developmental challenges, what is her
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Speaker 4: assessment of what occurred, and what is her prior history
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Speaker 4: of any type of CPS involvement, either as a child
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Speaker 4: or as a parent.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh, but
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Speaker 1: Paula Rodi, a baby just got burned alive in the oven.
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Speaker 1: So unless the mother is legally insane, why do I care?
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Speaker 1: I mean, am I the crazy one here? And that's rhetorical,
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Speaker 1: you don't need to answer. But the baby was placed
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Speaker 1: alive in the oven to burn alive. And another fact,
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Speaker 1: Amanda Yen joining me from the Daily Beast, who's been
23:50
Speaker 1: on the story from the beginning. Isn't it true that
23:53
Speaker 1: when the grandfather, Mariah Thomas's father got home, he could
24:00
Speaker 1: smell something burning and he saw where the baby had
24:05
Speaker 1: been placed in the crib. Like, let's just act like
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Speaker 1: nothing happened and maybe they won't notice the baby's dead.
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Speaker 1: The baby had been taken out of the oven and
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Speaker 1: put in the crib, right.
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Speaker 6: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: In his police statement, the grandfather of the baby said
24:25
Speaker 3: that he arrived home, ran inside the house, smelled the
24:28
Speaker 3: smoke inside the house, and then found the baby in
24:31
Speaker 3: the crib with burnstead.
24:34
Speaker 1: But when the first responders got there, where was the baby?
24:37
Speaker 3: The baby was on a like a car seat near
24:39
Speaker 3: the front door.
24:40
Speaker 1: Okay, so he must have I'm just deducing that he
24:43
Speaker 1: was going to take the baby to the hospital and
24:45
Speaker 1: put the baby in the car seat, and that's where
24:47
Speaker 1: the baby was. But when the granddad got home, there's
24:53
Speaker 1: only one adult there. The baby had been placed by
24:56
Speaker 1: the mother. We can deduce in the crib us know,
25:00
Speaker 1: Amanda in yes, Joining me right now is forensic pathologist
25:06
Speaker 1: former chief Medical Examiner Alleghany County in Pittsburgh, doctor Carl E. Williams,
25:14
Speaker 1: who has literally performed thousands of autopsies. Doctor Williams, thank
25:19
Speaker 1: you for being with us, My pleasure, Nancy. Doctor Williams.
25:23
Speaker 1: How much of your body has to be burned before
25:26
Speaker 1: you literally die from being burned? I mean, how do
25:30
Speaker 1: you die from burns? It's not like your heart shuts
25:34
Speaker 1: down or you can't breathe anymore.
25:36
Speaker 8: How do you die from burns? You have to remember
25:40
Speaker 8: that the skin, the largest organ in the body, protects
25:43
Speaker 8: everything from fluid balance and things. So you die in
25:47
Speaker 8: a number of ways to die on, but you can
25:50
Speaker 8: die just from the burns themselves. Of scoring the skin but.
25:53
Speaker 1: Wait, I don't understand that. How do you die from
25:55
Speaker 1: a burn? How does that make your heart stop beating?
25:59
Speaker 6: Oh?
25:59
Speaker 8: Sec, it causes dehydration, The infections through the skin, fluid
26:04
Speaker 8: balances all take place through the skin. And again there
26:08
Speaker 8: are many different types of burns. People that die and
26:12
Speaker 8: fires die of carbon monoxide poisoning, typically burns. For burns,
26:18
Speaker 8: you lose the other layer of your skin. That's the
26:20
Speaker 8: largest organ in the body, that's for protecting you against fluids,
26:23
Speaker 8: against infection.
26:24
Speaker 1: But this baby couldn't have died by infection in the oven.
26:28
Speaker 8: No, this day, this baby dies from hyperthermia. And the
26:32
Speaker 8: exact sequence of events and how you will never know,
26:36
Speaker 8: I mean you can't. You can't do an experiment that
26:39
Speaker 8: obviously shows the exact mechanism and things.
26:42
Speaker 4: The clearest thing in.
26:43
Speaker 8: This case to me, and it's been since the first
26:47
Speaker 8: I heard about it. His mother is clearly crazy. Okay,
26:50
Speaker 8: Now I'm not a Hey, hey.
26:53
Speaker 1: Hold on, boss, you're the medical doctor. Are you a lawyer?
26:58
Speaker 1: And nobody told me.
26:59
Speaker 8: And I'm not lawyer either of so.
27:01
Speaker 1: Crazy means you don't know right from wrong at the
27:04
Speaker 1: time of the incident. I believe, and I would argue, no,
27:08
Speaker 1: that by taking the baby out of the oven and
27:10
Speaker 1: trying to put her in the crib like nothing happened
27:13
Speaker 1: that indicase you know something was wrong at that moment.
27:17
Speaker 8: This woman had no idea what she was doing because
27:20
Speaker 8: of the combination of whatever her psychiatric problem is, okay,
27:25
Speaker 8: and the moment. I'm sorry, I don't think there's any
27:28
Speaker 8: intent here. She's just deeply, deeply into some form of
27:32
Speaker 8: abnormality that we really don't know. Have you.
27:36
Speaker 1: Interviewed her and made a medical diagnosis as a skiatrist?
27:40
Speaker 1: I mean, why are you saying that she was mentally disturbed?
27:45
Speaker 1: And it's got to be insane to be a legal
27:47
Speaker 1: defense in this case. So what leads you to say
27:50
Speaker 1: to say that? I'm very curious just because it's a horrible,
27:53
Speaker 1: heinous thing what she did, it is it is.
27:56
Speaker 8: I don't doubt that at all. I don't think she
27:58
Speaker 8: had any idea what she was doing.
28:00
Speaker 1: Why at the time, Why do you say that?
28:02
Speaker 8: Well?
28:03
Speaker 5: Kill you.
28:03
Speaker 8: First of all, let me just say that I talked
28:05
Speaker 8: to a lot of prescient women that are very tired
28:08
Speaker 8: of being pregnant. Okay, I don't think that has any
28:10
Speaker 8: effect on it whatsoever. I'll tell you because it is
28:13
Speaker 8: extraordinarily easy, okay to kill a baby. Okay, Smothering is
28:18
Speaker 8: the obvious way, all right, if the woman had any intelligence,
28:21
Speaker 8: any perception. You know, in cases where you kill a
28:26
Speaker 8: baby by giving a mace atonia, you kill a baby
28:28
Speaker 8: by smothering, you go to the phone and you see
28:30
Speaker 8: queries on all of this. I bet you're not going
28:32
Speaker 8: to find anything.
28:33
Speaker 1: You bet I'm not going to find any what?
28:35
Speaker 8: Oh? Any? Well, I don't think you're going to find
28:38
Speaker 8: a Google search for Kevin babies and ovens. I don't
28:40
Speaker 8: think you're going to find a Google search for hypothermia.
28:42
Speaker 1: Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait? Are you saying
28:45
Speaker 1: that you believe doctor Carl Williams that if I ran
28:49
Speaker 1: a Google search I would not find sane people that
28:52
Speaker 1: did this.
28:52
Speaker 8: I don't think of this case.
28:54
Speaker 1: Hold on just one moment, then let's take a listen
28:56
Speaker 1: to our cut twelve, our friends at crime Online. What
29:00
Speaker 1: does the name China Arnold ring a bell? Because I
29:02
Speaker 1: will never forget that name. Listen.
29:04
Speaker 7: China Arnold had a baby with longtime boyfriend Terrell Tally,
29:07
Speaker 7: and they named the little girl Paris Tally. The relationship
29:10
Speaker 7: between Arnold Andterrell was volatile at best, and during a
29:14
Speaker 7: drunken argument, Kelly claimed that he didn't believe he was
29:17
Speaker 7: the biological father of Paris. In a fit of anger China,
29:21
Speaker 7: Arnold takes the twenty eight day old infant, puts her
29:24
Speaker 7: in a microwave, and turns it on high. After at
29:26
Speaker 7: least two minutes, Arnold takes the baby out of the
29:29
Speaker 7: microwave and puts her on the table. The next day,
29:31
Speaker 7: Paris Tally is cold and stiff when her parents take
29:34
Speaker 7: her to the hospital, where she is pronounced dead and.
29:37
Speaker 1: More from Sydney Sumner on China Arnold may she rot
29:42
Speaker 1: in hell. China.
29:44
Speaker 9: Arnold was arrested and charged with killing Paris Tally. Medical
29:47
Speaker 9: experts testified that the baby probably was in the microwave
29:51
Speaker 9: for more than two minutes, and doctor Marcella Fierro, the
29:54
Speaker 9: retired chief medical Examiner for the State of Virginia, said
29:57
Speaker 9: of Paris Tally, she died because she was overhere. She
30:00
Speaker 9: was overcooked.
30:02
Speaker 1: It's not just hot ovens. Take us now our Seventeen.
30:06
Speaker 7: Hours after Troy Kohler is reported missing in Texas, investigators
30:10
Speaker 7: are trying to figure out if he is a runaway
30:12
Speaker 7: or if he was grabbed by a stranger. When his
30:15
Speaker 7: body is found, he never left home. During a search
30:18
Speaker 7: of the property, authorities find the seven year old inside
30:20
Speaker 7: a top load washing machine in the garage. An autopsy
30:23
Speaker 7: reveals the boy suffered from asphyxiation, blunt force trauma, and
30:27
Speaker 7: possible drowning. His death is ruled a homicide. Troy Kohler
30:31
Speaker 7: has new and old injuries on his body, and investigators
30:34
Speaker 7: uncovered text messages sent to the boy from his adoptive parents,
30:38
Speaker 7: where the mother threatens to put him in the oven
30:41
Speaker 7: and the father threatens to hang him from a tree.
30:43
Speaker 7: His adoptive parents, forty two year old Jermaine Thomas, is
30:46
Speaker 7: charged with capital murder. His thirty five year old wife,
30:49
Speaker 7: Tiffany Thomas, is charged with injury to a child biomission.
30:52
Speaker 1: There you go, washer, Well that's not all. Lakeisha Adams.
30:59
Speaker 1: Listen to this.
31:00
Speaker 7: Lakeisha Adams calls Bogolusa, Louisiana Police just before seven pm
31:04
Speaker 7: with an unbelievable story. Sergeant Darryl Darden says, the eighteen
31:08
Speaker 7: year old mother of two claims somebody came into her
31:10
Speaker 7: house placed her three month old baby in the dryer.
31:13
Speaker 7: And when she came home to the house, she found
31:15
Speaker 7: her baby and got him out of the dryer. Police
31:17
Speaker 7: find the baby lying on Adam's couch, is badly burned
31:20
Speaker 7: and has been dead for several hours. Police push for
31:23
Speaker 7: more details, and Lakeisha Adams cracks and admits she's the
31:27
Speaker 7: one who put her three month old baby in a
31:29
Speaker 7: clothes dryer and started the machine tumbling and burning the
31:32
Speaker 7: baby boy until he was dead. She doesn't say why,
31:35
Speaker 7: she doesn't have to, but she's now being charged with
31:38
Speaker 7: first degree murder.
31:39
Speaker 1: I've got so many I can't even get to all
31:41
Speaker 1: of them, doctor Williams, perfectly sane people that murder their
31:48
Speaker 1: children with ovens, microwaves, washing machines, dryers, dishwashers.
31:54
Speaker 8: Yes, there's one thing that's radically differs again all of
31:58
Speaker 8: the stories you said, And I got to say that
32:00
Speaker 8: every case you do as a forensic pathology is absolutely unique.
32:05
Speaker 8: It's different from all of the other cases, okay, And
32:07
Speaker 8: that's what makes this case different. You don't have all
32:10
Speaker 8: the ancillary stories of fights and other people seeing that
32:13
Speaker 8: they're going to do it, or confessions and things. You've
32:15
Speaker 8: got nothing in this case, okay, except at least at
32:19
Speaker 8: this point, except the fact that she does something that
32:22
Speaker 8: is so completely outside of the ordinary that you can't
32:26
Speaker 8: imagine that she has real intent to do it. She
32:29
Speaker 8: is deeply embedded in some sort of a psychiatric pubm,
32:33
Speaker 8: which obviously I'm not qualified to talk about. But no,
32:36
Speaker 8: this case for what it is, and you know, I've
32:41
Speaker 8: felt that from the first time you told me about
32:43
Speaker 8: this case. Without all of the other details, I knew
32:46
Speaker 8: that she had to have some sort of a psychiatric condition,
32:48
Speaker 8: and I knew she had to be on probably legal drugs.
32:51
Speaker 8: We don't even hear anything about illegal drugs, which are
32:54
Speaker 8: always a part of this Okay, And that's the single
32:57
Speaker 8: most important part to me in this case in terms
33:00
Speaker 8: of the ultimate question of intent. She had tended to
33:04
Speaker 8: kill her baby because she was tired of being bragged.
33:07
Speaker 8: There are a lot more ways to do it that
33:10
Speaker 8: would not be detective.
33:11
Speaker 1: Okay. I think I understand where you're going crime stories
33:26
Speaker 1: with me. It's a grace BERNARDA Violona. I want your
33:30
Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer. I want to address with doctor Carl Williams,
33:33
Speaker 1: who is a pathologist, is saying, whenever I have had
33:38
Speaker 1: a child homicide, I wonder why of course, the state
33:43
Speaker 1: doesn't have to prove why, because if you kill your baby,
33:48
Speaker 1: whether you put them in the oven, or you throw
33:51
Speaker 1: them out the window, or you smother them, or you
33:55
Speaker 1: put them in the microwave or the dishwasher or some
33:57
Speaker 1: other appliance, the reality is your baby. And I don't
34:03
Speaker 1: think one child murder is any more or less heinous
34:09
Speaker 1: than another. I've got these stacks of perfectly sane people
34:18
Speaker 1: that murder their child by appliance, and they are no
34:24
Speaker 1: more or less guilty than any of the other adults
34:28
Speaker 1: that murder a child by starving it, by beating it,
34:33
Speaker 1: by smothering it. This is more rare, but there is
34:38
Speaker 1: no indication at all that this mother was on drugs
34:43
Speaker 1: had a drug problem. She was fine the night before,
34:47
Speaker 1: she was pleasant that morning.
34:50
Speaker 6: We'll probably never find out why she did what she did.
34:53
Speaker 6: But what I do want to point out to you, Nancy,
34:56
Speaker 6: is that her father. I believe that their father or
34:58
Speaker 6: mother are going to be key witnesses in this case,
35:01
Speaker 6: because the father or the mother, because it's not quite
35:04
Speaker 6: clear from the complaint, said that she said that they
35:07
Speaker 6: left her fine, that she was fine. The baby and
35:11
Speaker 6: the mother were fine right before they left the house. Also,
35:15
Speaker 6: what I wanted to point out is that when the
35:17
Speaker 6: father goes to the house, the baby is in the crib.
35:20
Speaker 6: So how is it that all of a sudden you
35:22
Speaker 6: figure out and know where the crib is because that's
35:25
Speaker 6: where they found a baby. But you're saying that accidentally
35:28
Speaker 6: earlier on that you put it in the oven, thinking
35:31
Speaker 6: that it was the crib. The parents are going to
35:33
Speaker 6: be key witnesses. I don't want to hear about the
35:36
Speaker 6: psychiatric defense because you don't have it.
35:39
Speaker 1: Here, not yet. You're absolutely right. But of course what
35:43
Speaker 1: doctor Carl Williams is saying maybe echoed in the minds
35:47
Speaker 1: of the gurrors. So the state's going to have to
35:50
Speaker 1: address that because in straight vernacular, anybody could say, well,
35:55
Speaker 1: she's crazy, she put her baby in the oven. But
35:59
Speaker 1: crazy on the street does not mean legal insanity under
36:03
Speaker 1: the oldman Naughton rule, which is brought over to our
36:06
Speaker 1: country from Great Britain. And it's a very easy litmus test,
36:10
Speaker 1: and that is did you know right from wrong at
36:14
Speaker 1: the time of the incident. It's really simple and you
36:18
Speaker 1: don't need a lawyer to explain it. But I want
36:21
Speaker 1: you to hear this leading up to the birth. Remember
36:24
Speaker 1: the baby's only one month old. Everything was fine. The
36:27
Speaker 1: mom was seemed excited about having the baby. Listen to
36:31
Speaker 1: Sidney Sumner Crime Online.
36:33
Speaker 9: Mariah Thomas's baby is due in December, and the mom
36:36
Speaker 9: to be is documenting her pregnancy on social media. On
36:39
Speaker 9: August twelfth, four months before the arrival of her baby girl,
36:43
Speaker 9: Thomas writes, uugh, I'm tired of being pregnant. I wish
36:46
Speaker 9: Zelani came early. This comment is met with several posts
36:49
Speaker 9: of encouragement from friends and followers. In another post, she writes,
36:53
Speaker 9: got an ultrasound appointment this Tuesday to see Zelani. I'm
36:57
Speaker 9: hella happy. I just love seeing my daughter on old time,
37:00
Speaker 9: so moving around in my belly seems perfectly normal, natural
37:03
Speaker 9: and happy to me.
37:04
Speaker 1: She can post online regarding her ultra sound Let's go
37:08
Speaker 1: to cut three from Nicole parton crime Online.
37:11
Speaker 2: After the birth of Zariah, Mariah Thomas continues to remain
37:14
Speaker 2: active on social media, posting pictures of herself with Zariah
37:18
Speaker 2: together and separate. At times, Thomas post are excited and
37:22
Speaker 2: other days not so much. January twenty one, she writes,
37:26
Speaker 2: my goal this year for twenty twenty four is to
37:29
Speaker 2: be the best mother I can be to my beautiful daughter,
37:31
Speaker 2: and to stay out of drama, and to get a
37:34
Speaker 2: place for me and my daughter and for only me
37:37
Speaker 2: and my daughter. Five days later, Thomas post, I don't
37:40
Speaker 2: have any friends at all. This s word sad man
37:44
Speaker 2: and the ones I do got only f with me
37:46
Speaker 2: on their own time.
37:47
Speaker 1: Now, Nicole Parton left out all the curse words. That
37:51
Speaker 1: was this sad man and the ones I do. The
37:56
Speaker 1: friends I do have only with me on their time. Okay,
38:01
Speaker 1: this is the mom that you guys are talking about
38:04
Speaker 1: with all her issues. Isn't it true to Amanda Yen,
38:10
Speaker 1: investigative reporter Daily Beast that just before the baby was killed,
38:16
Speaker 1: the mother, Mariah Thomas, aged twenty six, posts a cash
38:21
Speaker 1: at link for people to send her money. Is that true?
38:26
Speaker 3: Yes, that's true.
38:26
Speaker 1: Okay, Doctor Angel Arnold, I think I know what you're
38:30
Speaker 1: going to say. Since your specialty is post one of
38:34
Speaker 1: them is postpartum depression.
38:37
Speaker 4: Helped me out here, Nancy, As I've been listening to
38:39
Speaker 4: all of this, let's not forget we've done these kinds
38:43
Speaker 4: of stories before, and we have ascertained.
38:45
Speaker 1: When have you ever covered a baby in oven? With me?
38:48
Speaker 4: We have covered children babies being killed by their mothers
38:52
Speaker 4: then on federal occasion.
38:53
Speaker 1: That is true.
38:54
Speaker 4: And one of the things, and one of the things
38:56
Speaker 4: in a recent story that we did which was very important,
38:59
Speaker 4: was that psychosis can come and go. A woman can
39:04
Speaker 4: not be psychotic and then be psychotic. From what I
39:07
Speaker 4: see in what in the story that's being told here
39:10
Speaker 4: in the in the events that are being laid out here,
39:13
Speaker 4: the woman was happy to be having the baby, and
39:16
Speaker 4: there was nothing wrong when the parents left that morning.
39:20
Speaker 4: So why did she all of a sudden kill the baby?
39:24
Speaker 4: What happened from that morning when she was seemingly okay?
39:27
Speaker 1: What do you mean what happened? You think the baby
39:30
Speaker 1: slapped her in the face as she got back at
39:32
Speaker 1: the baby. What do you mean what happened before she
39:35
Speaker 1: murdered her baby? What could the baby do? Cry? Poop
39:38
Speaker 1: its fans? I mean, what's the felony, what's the what's
39:42
Speaker 1: the trigger for mom to murder her baby?
39:45
Speaker 4: Exactly? What was the provocation? Nancy?
39:48
Speaker 1: I would say, no contents.
39:49
Speaker 4: And purposes, The baby was, everybody was fine, and both
39:53
Speaker 4: of her parents left the house thinking that everything was okay.
39:57
Speaker 4: Before they left, and the next thing you know she's
40:00
Speaker 4: opening an oven and putting the baby.
40:01
Speaker 6: Inside of it.
40:02
Speaker 4: And your point is my point is the baby is
40:06
Speaker 4: one month old.
40:08
Speaker 1: Okay, could you please say something we haven't already said.
40:12
Speaker 4: I want to know what part mental illness has played
40:16
Speaker 4: in thus?
40:16
Speaker 1: Okay, can I ask you something? And this is a
40:18
Speaker 1: yes no, Doctor Angie Arnold, Okay, do you have one fact,
40:25
Speaker 1: one fact of prior mental treatment? Do you have one
40:30
Speaker 1: fact about her not being in GP general population in
40:34
Speaker 1: the Jackson County Detention Center because she's in GP. Do
40:38
Speaker 1: you have one fact that she was talking out of
40:41
Speaker 1: her mind when cops got there? Nothing? Nothing? Do you
40:45
Speaker 1: know something that I don't know that Amanda In hasn't
40:48
Speaker 1: told us she knows everything about the case.
40:51
Speaker 4: What if there are things that we don't know about.
40:53
Speaker 1: Dear Lord in Heaven? So bottom line, you don't. Amanda
40:56
Speaker 1: In did tell me something. She said that a friend. Oh,
41:01
Speaker 1: by the way, right before a few days before killing
41:04
Speaker 1: the baby, the mom goes online. She's very proficient at
41:10
Speaker 1: online posting, at social media, and she says, shortly before
41:15
Speaker 1: she killed the baby, motherfuckers claim they my friend, but
41:19
Speaker 1: don't ever check up on me? Or Ziiah h I
41:25
Speaker 1: wonder who that could be. Who's the MF she's talking
41:27
Speaker 1: about the baby's dad, her friends? Who? Why is she angry?
41:34
Speaker 1: Why is she posting this? Why is she posting online
41:38
Speaker 1: for money and claiming it's for her birthday? Can somebody
41:41
Speaker 1: tell me that? But Amanda In did tell me that
41:45
Speaker 1: a friend said that she the mom was mentally ill.
41:49
Speaker 1: Isn't that true, Amanda In? You did tell me.
41:51
Speaker 3: That, yes, and if I may add as well, this
41:55
Speaker 3: friend also said that Mariah had been on Medicaid for
42:00
Speaker 3: her mental illness, but that the doctors had told her
42:04
Speaker 3: to stop taking it while she was pregnant because of
42:07
Speaker 3: things that could happen with the baby.
42:08
Speaker 6: Now.
42:09
Speaker 3: The friend told me that when she asked Mariah, she
42:11
Speaker 3: had gone back on medication once the baby was born
42:15
Speaker 3: because she wasn't pregnant anymore and there was no more
42:17
Speaker 3: risk to the baby in utero. Mariah had told her, no,
42:21
Speaker 3: she wasn't going on medication. She wasn't going to go
42:24
Speaker 3: back on medication.
42:26
Speaker 4: And Nancy, that is a huge part to this story. Okay,
42:30
Speaker 4: she has been off of her medication for the entirety
42:33
Speaker 4: of her pregnancy. Then she delivers a baby and I'm
42:37
Speaker 4: just Nancy. I don't know if she was mentally ill
42:39
Speaker 4: at the time or not, but that piece of this
42:42
Speaker 4: story is a very important piece to the story. Off
42:45
Speaker 4: of your medicine. Nine months during your pregnancy, you deliver
42:49
Speaker 4: a baby, and if she's supposed to be on medication,
42:53
Speaker 4: then something could have gone wrong with her mentally. I'm
42:56
Speaker 4: just saying that.
42:57
Speaker 1: Let me tell you something, doctor Angieson. I have been
43:00
Speaker 1: in the very very difficult position very often between championing
43:06
Speaker 1: one side or the other, and now I have to pick.
43:11
Speaker 1: Am I going to champion the mother who baked her
43:16
Speaker 1: baby dead, who was perfectly fine the night before on
43:19
Speaker 1: the phone, who was perfectly fine that morning. I still
43:22
Speaker 1: don't know who turned on the oven, but I guarantee
43:25
Speaker 1: you the parents didn't leave that oven on when they
43:27
Speaker 1: left to go to work. So that only leaves her
43:30
Speaker 1: unless you think the baby turned the oven onmen that
43:33
Speaker 1: said her, or the one month old baby who is
43:39
Speaker 1: the innocent here. If this mother should have been on meds,
43:47
Speaker 1: it will have to rise under the law to legal insanity.
43:53
Speaker 1: It can't be street vernacular. In other words, civilian taught wow,
43:58
Speaker 1: she must have been crazy. No, they will have to
44:03
Speaker 1: prove insanity in court because I appreciate what you guys
44:10
Speaker 1: are all saying about the mom. O, poor mom. She
44:13
Speaker 1: had a mental illness. The baby died in excruciating, horrible death,
44:22
Speaker 1: and I want to find out what was on this
44:24
Speaker 1: mother's cell phone on our social media postings before I
44:29
Speaker 1: agree that there was any mental defing. Now, if there is,
44:35
Speaker 1: then she should be treated in a facility, and once
44:41
Speaker 1: she is cured, if that ever happens, may not ever happen,
44:46
Speaker 1: she may then do her jail time for murdering this child.
44:52
Speaker 1: And that's where I land. But we wait as justice.
44:56
Speaker 1: Some thoughts, goodbye you
45:02
Speaker 8: M