Latest / Walk Talk: Faith in Motion / 014: Kingdom of Heaven
Transcript
- Randy: All right, man, here we go again. Pj: ⁓ man, it's good to be back, brother's been a minute, feels like. Randy: been a minute, but we're back at it again. Let's talk about this thing. Pj: Let's talk about it. Randy: Alright, so today on the agenda for today, we're going to talk all about heaven. Pj: Alright, let's get into it. We've already ⁓ went to hell as you've so eloquently put it before. So I figure what in the heaven is this all about? Randy: Yep. What in the heaven is it all about? What in the heaven is going on out here today? All right, so let's do what we normally do. Let's kind of kick it off with some definitions of heaven, because like most things that we talk about here on the walk talk, faith in motion, two regular guys just sharing our faith, ⁓ there's more, not pastors, not priests, there's more than one definition of heaven. Surprise, right? So let's talk about them. Pj: That's right. Yep. Not pastors, not priests. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm very interested to get into it, man, because, you know, it's, one of those things we've, we've mentioned in previous episodes, you know, like the, the hell went in particular, like, you know, as a, as a believer, you don't spend a whole lot, a lot of time thinking about hell, but we do kind of, you know, think about having a lot, because I mean, that's the, that's the goal. That's the destination. That's the, end of the race, but at the same time, man, People have various beliefs about what it's going to look like when we get there. Randy: Well, and that is that is a good point. And so I'll just say this, anyone who thinks that this might be a boring episode, ⁓ brace yourself. I'm just glad that, you know, we're no longer under an inquisition because I would probably be burned alive for some of the things that I think about heaven. So this is not going to be a boring episode where we're just talking about, you know, ⁓ babies with diapers on shooting arrows on clouds and things like that or streets of gold. Right. We're going to be getting into Pj: Right, right. Randy: some deep, some nitty gritty, yeah. And we're kind of getting in, you know, from my perspective, a little bit over our heads. Cause like we said, we're not, we don't have any kind of theological degrees here. We're just kind of going off of, you know, what we read and what we've heard and how we interpret that against, you know, what, you know, God has spoken to us. And so. Pj: The nitty gritty. And I'm very interested. mean, I know we've gotten a little bit of engagement from anybody out there who's listening and checking this out and finding some value in it. ⁓ I'm interested in hearing everyone's perspective on heaven because I can almost guarantee you, even if you don't share it here with us, I think that if you were to just have a conversation with anybody who is in the same circle as you about what their idea of heaven is, that you'll kind of see, it's like, wait a minute, where does that kind of come from? So I think that's interesting. Randy: Yep. So in the Bible, there's a few different ways that heaven is you. So the first one, probably the first one most people are going to read and be familiar with is in a physical sense, right? So in Genesis one, it talks about, you know, God created the heavens with an S and the earth. And so it's obvious there that there's a physical place that it's referring to. That's kind of an earthly, worldly heaven, right? Pj: Right. Right. Yep. Randy: outer space, the atmosphere, the air, right? Talks about the birds flying in the heavens and things like that, right? Pj: I would yeah, I'd basically say where God lives God's out. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry Randy: So I would say that's the second one. I would say that's the second definition. I would say that's more of that spiritual realm. That's the place where God lives, where God's throne is. Yeah, so I would say that's probably more in the second definition. And I think you see things like in, know, when Jesus is praying, our Father in heaven, and in Isaiah and Revelations, we see like the pictures of the throne room and the place where God dwells. And that's a different use of the word heaven. Pj: Get ahead of us. Okay. Randy: And then the third one is the one that ⁓ is more of heaven as a rule, like God ruling a function. And this is where we hear a lot of talk in the New Testament about the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven. And that one is a little different because that one implies something happening here on earth. So not necessarily a physical place or even a spiritual place, but it's more where the spiritual meets the physical, if you will. Does that one make sense? Pj: Yeah. Okay. Randy: So those are the three different heavens that I come up with. what I kind of was thinking about as I was thinking about, you know, what we were going to discuss today, you know, I think most people, when you talk about heaven, they associate heaven as the place that you go when you die, if you're saved, right? Is that what you would think of? Pj: Right. Yeah, absolutely. mean, that's I feel like that's the promise. You know what mean? And that, like I said, that's that's the not not the ultimate goal. Obviously, it's I think the ultimate goal is being in the presence of God. But but I do believe that it's like, you know, it's one of the perks that you definitely want to end up in in hell and not in heaven, excuse me, instead of hell. Randy: Yeah, yeah, definitely don't want to end up in hell. Pj: No, no, no, sorry. I basically got exactly I meant to say you want to end up in heaven and not hell. Sorry for that was tricky. Randy: Yeah. So I, so I think that's what most people are thinking of, right? They're thinking of heaven as the place where God is the place where you go when you die, if you're saved or if you're not saved, you probably, you know, some people think if you're a good person, right, which we know there's no one good, you're either saved by grace or you're not. But, but I think that's what most people are thinking of. And so I started doing a little bit of, you know, AI research here. And what I, what I found was that the notion of heaven as this distinct place of reward, sort of evolved over several hundred years, starting around 500 BCE with the Jews at that time in the second temple, where through some apocalyptic literature like first Enoch and second Baruch, they started talking more about this post-mortem judgment and reward. So after you die, there's gonna be a judgment and there's gonna be a reward. And so by the time the New Testament was written, by the time the New Testament happened, and Jesus was walking the earth, there was already kind of this idea that had been developed of like this judgment and this afterlife, but it's not really explicit in the Old Testament, right? We hear lots of different things in the Old Testament, Abraham's bosom, for example. ⁓ You know, what was that about? I think, you know, some people get the idea of purgatory from a place like Abraham's bosom, but But it seems like an idea that in the grand scheme of things, you know, has it been around? Well, it from, like I said, from what I read as a physical place of reward or a spiritual place of reward, it's only about 500 years prior to Jesus that this idea really existed. What do you think about that? Pj: Right. Yeah. mean, that's that I'd never heard of that. ⁓ That that's wild, I guess. I mean, in my mind, right, I'm thinking I'm going back to Genesis in the beginning. God created the heavens and the earth. So I'm like, well, heaven has been around since the beginning, the literal beginning. And I did I did want to note ⁓ this before we get to. Randy: Sure, sure. Pj: too deep. know, like you said, we usually kind of do definitions and you've touched on that. But in Hebrew, right, the word for heaven is probably going to butcher this. But I want to say it's shamayim, shamayim, shamayim. Right, right. Which, which is, it has plural meanings, it says, which is heights or elevations, right? So just whenever I kind of, and that's like this Randy: Yeah, Shamayim, something like that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Pj: this new thing, man, I like kind of getting to the root word because I think a lot of times what happens is we get a translation of a translation, which changes the translation, changes the meaning. And so just kind of thinking about it, it made sense for, I feel like what we'll talk about later, thinking about it in the sense of, know, heaven as being a descriptive word, right? Like elevation or a height instead of necessarily a physical place in some aspects. Randy: Sure, sure. Yeah, so on that note, I'll just give a quick plug. I hadn't heard about this app until just this last week, but there's actually an app you could download. It's called BLB Blue Letter Bible. Have you ever heard of that? And I guess, yeah, I've never really used it before. Still haven't really, but I was with someone who used it and they were literally just able with a click to find like the original language and words like in a verse, like without doing a lot of... Pj: Yes, yes, that's a good tool. Yes. Randy: work and I thought, ⁓ that's pretty cool. need to get that app and learn how to use it. Yeah. Pj: Yes. Game changer. Not to rehash old episodes, but ⁓ whenever we talked about speaking in tongues and I was like, well, what is this? And then whenever I saw a gloss, I'm like, hmm, well, like what, where, can I figure out how to find these kinds of things? letter Bible, baby. Randy: Mmm Yeah There you go. There you go. All right. So, hey, so here's the thing. So, ⁓ yeah. So as I mentioned a second ago, it's roughly 500 years before the time of Christ where, you know, heaven started to be seen as a ultimate place of reward. Now I will say this, I would like to, for the purpose of this conversation, say that in my mind, there is a little bit of a separation in terms of salvation and heaven. I think most people think of those two things as length. I said, going back 500 to 500 BCE, it's like a given that, I'm saved. So therefore I'm going to heaven. But what I'd like to distinguish in my mind is there's a difference between your ultimate place called heaven, where you may, you know, spend eternity or the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God. and that I see as something that has already started. It's already begun. It's already here. ⁓ it is not completely. you know fulfill to its fullest form but I would like to to distinguish the the idea that a person could potentially be saved and Have faith in christ but also not necessarily participating in the kingdom of heaven ⁓ at least the way I see it existing right now here and now on this earth So in other words what i'm saying is a person could be saved but essentially not engaged in the kingdom of heaven yet Pj: Hmm. Randy: And I think, and I'll kind of give you little bit of background as to kind of the way I see the kingdom of heaven and then you could tell me if that makes sense to you or not. Pj: Yeah, yeah, make it make sense right now, because I'm like, hmm, where is this headed? Randy: Okay, so I'm going to go on a little bit of a rant here. So I'm going to just ask everybody to kind of just bear with me. I'll throw out some verses if you want to like write these down or not. I got them here at my notes. But as I start to think about heaven and I really want to focus on that third definition where it's heaven more as, you know, the spiritual meeting the physical. I want to focus more on the kingdom of heaven. And I didn't know this until just recently, but you know, it's really Matthew that says kingdom of heaven. The rest of the gospel say kingdom of God. Maybe it was because of his reverence for you the name of God But he uses heaven whereas the same verses that are repeated in the other Gospels use the kingdom of God So I think it's fair to say that kingdom of God kingdom of heaven we could use those pretty much interchangeably Okay, but where I'm gonna start is not in a place where most people would start when they're talking about heaven or the kingdom of heaven Where I want to start is actually actually towards the end of Matthew when Jesus says all authority Pj: Okay. Randy: in heaven and on earth has been given to me. And the reason why I want to start there is because think about that. I assume, as I'm sure most Christians assume, that Jesus is God. So from that perspective, why would any authority need to be given to him? Wouldn't he already have that authority? That's kind of what I was thinking as I was reading that. Go ahead, if you have a thought, jump in. I'm going to go on a ramp, but feel free to jump in. Pj: Well, no, so I was just thinking, I see that as, you know, the authority given to him in the not ascended version of Jesus. know what mean? The more human God in the flesh, that authority has been given to that flesh, I think. I would say. Randy: Okay, okay. Well, I think that's one way to look at it. For me, what I started to think about was I started looking backwards. I started looking at the Old Testament because I think there's a lot of assumptions and a lot of things that we just kind of take for granted. And one of the things, and it's going to sound like I'm going off on a tangent, but I'm not, is I think we make an assumption that when it comes to the spiritual realm, you really only have angels and demons. You have these angels. And then the rebellious fallen angels become demons. And I don't know if that's quite the case either, because when I read through the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, I read of all sorts of different titles, different things that I don't know if they're all the same. like, for example, I start to see some structure in the Old Testament, like in Daniel 10, it says that there are spiritual princes over regions. in Deuteronomy 32, It says that the nations were divided and I want to read this one because in Deuteronomy 32 it says, the days of long ago, think about generations past, ask your father and he will inform you, inquire of the elders and they will tell you when the most high assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number in his heavenly court. And so what I think is going on here, I think that when God created the world, He created this kingdom. It's not that kingdom's, it's not that Jesus was using the kingdom of God as an analogy for kingdoms on earth to make us understand. I think it's the opposite. I think that God set up the first kingdom as this spiritual kingdom on this planet with a verse like this, and it doesn't give us a lot of detail. We kind of have to like piece some things together here. But what I see is it's saying that God divided up the human race according to his heavenly court. So in other words, I think what he's saying is that he basically set rulers, princes, if you will, in place as authorities over the people of the world. I think that that was the original kingdom of God. And then in Psalms 82, and Jesus references this Psalm, if you remember when he says, am the father of one, and I forget what verse that is. and they picked up stones to throw at him, right? And he says, you know, I've done all these miracles and works of God, for which one are you stoning me? And they said, not for any of your works, but for blasphemy. And then Jesus says, well, you you're saying that I'm blaspheming, but isn't it written that you are God's? In other words, he's saying like, in the scripture, it says you are God's. Now, Some people take that to mean, Jesus is kind of minimizing his claim to be God, but he's not. He's quoting Psalms 82, where it's talking about God judging what he calls God's spiritual beings, which the word in the Hebrew was Elohim, right? So it's talking about God judging the Elohim. And it's funny, because when you read through that passage, when you read through Psalms 82, it basically says they were given authority to rule. but their rule was corrupt and their rule was unjust. And we know he's not talking about earthly kings because he says you were basically meant to be eternal, but instead you're going to die like human princes. You're going to die like mere men. So I'm like, what is he talking about here? So we have one verse talking about how God divided the human race and established boundaries and did this according to the number of his heavenly court. Then we have later on in Psalms where it's talking about him judging these spiritual beings for not for ruling unjustly. And what I really see is, you know, a lot of people think there's just the angels and demons, but I see cherubim, see seraphim, I hear sons of God, hear rulers and authorities, I hear all these different terms. And I don't know in my mind if I think those are all just different names for angels. I think there are it's like a hierarchy. I think there is this spiritual kingdom and I think of it like I think of it like a org chart for a big corporation where you might have like a CEO and then maybe that CEO has like an executive assistant. I don't know, maybe that's like Jesus, I don't know. And then you have like these regional heads, these VPs who run different parts of the business, right? Who all report to that CEO. And that CEO has delegated that authority. I'm wondering if this kingdom... And I'm thinking in my mind that it makes sense that this kingdom was originally set up, this kingdom of God, this kingdom of heaven was originally set up on this earth with these spiritual beings basically, know, delegated, ruling through delegated, you know, authority from the most high God. And then, and then, so bear with me. I'm like I said, I'm going on a little bit of a rant here, but then they rebelled. And I think In my opinion, I don't think there was just the one rebellion that we read about where it says, you know, Satan and a third of the angels who followed him rebelled. I think if you look at the Book of Enoch, which I know it's not in the Bible, it talks about watchers who disobeyed and they were punished for it. In Genesis six, it talks about, you know, how the sons of God created the Nephilim when they, you know, with the daughters of men. To me, that's another rebellion. In my opinion, these were all spiritual beings. And I think some of these spiritual beings were meant to rule in God's righteousness over us, but either due to their own pride or maybe out of some sort of discouragement at seeing how corruptible mankind had become, I think they chose to disobey. And they ended up being worshiped as other gods. So some of these other gods that we read about in the Old Testament, I mean, God, at times he talks about, you false gods or idols. He talks about idols of stone or of wood, things made by hand. And other times he talks about other gods as if they're real. And I think a lot of times we've assumed they are demons, but I don't know if they were necessarily demons or spiritual beings who disobeyed God. Pj: Yeah So a few things there I would I would say I would just say to that point, you know, ⁓ I have heard some debate about, know, obviously God Adonai our our God is the one true God. And but but there has been some some debates about whether or not he's the only Randy: And I got a lot more, but go ahead. Mm-hmm. Pj: only because I want to say certain, ⁓ certain scriptures like, you know, I believe God himself whenever he was given the commandments to Moses, basically said, you know, put no other gods above me. Right. So that's, that's always been kind of an interesting like thing. And, and, and I guess in my, right. Well, and, so, right. So, but Randy: Mm-hmm. As if there were other gods out there, is what you're saying. And let's say gods like this with some quotes, small g, yeah. Pj: Lowercase g. Yeah. So I guess in my mind, I just, I didn't think of them as necessarily other physical like beings, more or less as like, you know, these statues that that of these gods that that people us we made our gods like, you know, in the same sense that you know, anything that you ⁓ put above the true God is God. Right. So Randy: Right. And they might not be physical, a real being. Spiritual, physical, whatever. They're real entity. Pj: So, and then the only other thing that I would comment as far as what you've said so far is where I feel like there's credibility loss. I don't know why I can't say credibility. Where I feel like there's credibility loss is whenever you're referencing the book of Enoch, just because it's from my understanding of the book of Enoch, it was not even written by Enoch. It was written by like six different people. ⁓ basically trying to tell stories or maybe even fables or fairy tales in regards to that. and that's not to say that there's no validity in there, but it's just I'm like whenever where our foundation is the word. So I don't know. It's that's the only thing I would say. Randy: Sure, sure. Sure, yeah. Well, it yeah, and I would say that's a valid criticism. The only reason I even bring up the book of Enoch is because for one, I agree it was not included in the canon for a reason and I don't know all those reasons. I'm sure there were good reasons, but we know that it was quoted in the New Testament. I believe Jesus himself quotes it and it was also found with the Dead Sea Scrolls. So obviously the early church and even like the the forget the sect of Jews, they believe that it was a it was sacred scripture. So I think it's worth mentioning that whether or not we believe it's actually inspired word of God, it does talk about things that's probably worth us at least considering. And one of those things it talks about is ⁓ different spiritual beings that might exist. Pj: Yeah, I can kind of see that. But I think that like, if you go to, you know, if Ramesses, you know, had written a book that he would touch on actual accounts of biblical things, but it wouldn't be the inspired word of God. anyway, so I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. Randy: Sure, yeah. So where I'm going with this is I do think that, you know, it's not a full picture. You can't just point to one book in the Bible or a few chapters and say, here's where it describes how the old world was established and set up. But what I do think you see over and over again is you see that you have all these other nations, you have all these other nations who are following these false gods. Where did these false gods come from? Then you have, you know, you have Israel. who God says he set apart and he kept Israel to himself. In other words, he's saying like, hey, you know, I've delegated my authority to rule mankind to these other beings, but I'm gonna actually keep you for a special purpose really close to me, because I got this thing in mind for you all, right? And so I see that Israel is set apart in that way where God still like rules and interacts with them directly. Now, what I see is I see that basically these beings, They're part of this kingdom of God the way he originally established it they turn they rebelled Whatever however you want to look at it So then we got this fractured world with multiple kingdoms competing authorities corrupted rule and that's where Jesus steps in and There's this theologian George Eldon lad who explains that the kingdom of God is not just a place. It's God's rule Breaking into reality and I love the way he says that God's rule breaking into reality. So when Jesus shows up and he starts healing, starts casting out demons, starts exercising authority, it's like an invasion. It's like Jesus is saying, okay, we kind of have this kingdom that's broken into several kingdoms now, now we're gonna start to pull it all back together. So before I go on, I know you wanna jump in, so. Pj: Hmm. ⁓ No, I was just I was just curious ⁓ so another thought that came to mind is That doesn't it and I don't remember ⁓ where exactly it says that that basically Satan is the prince of this world basically like so he has the authority right which is why like whenever he was tempted Jesus whenever he was fastened for 40 days and 40 nights and he was like I can give you you know the minion over all these things that that you see like he had that ability to do so not not that he superseded God but God basically says yes like you you basically you know Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: are the prince of the earth basically. Randy: I think that's exactly what happened. think that Satan is like the most powerful of all the fallen angels or whatever fallen entities, spirits, ⁓ and that by default, if you will, once these other rulers, these princes, like the Prince of Persia that's mentioned, I think it's in the book of Daniel, ⁓ when they decided to disobey God, they pretty much fall under the authority of Satan. So they become part of his kingdom. And really you have the entire world who falls into that category where yeah, Satan is referred to as the prince of the power of the air or something like that, the rule of this world. Yeah, yeah. So I think that that's essentially what happened. And so you have this kingdom that got originally established and it dissolved, it basically broke up because the people, the spirits he put in place over it, they all turned bad for various different reasons. Pj: in Ephesians. Randy: Jesus comes in and he's like, I'm coming in to save mankind, but also to restore this kingdom. So when Jesus comes and he starts doing stuff, he starts healing people, starts doing all these miracles. He's basically saying like, you know, hey, we are going to reestablish the kingdom of God. And he starts talking about it right away, right? He says that, ⁓ you know, the kingdom of God, says, is at hand and now is and you know, he starts giving, you know, he goes on and on talking about the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven. Like I said, Matthew is the one who actually says kingdom of heaven all the time. but Jesus said usually, you know, it's the same verses usually show up in the different gospels, just slightly different wording, right? But Jesus says the kingdom of God can't be detected by visible signs. He says you won't be able to say here it is or it's over there. The kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven is already among you. He says that in Matthew 12. He says later on in I think it's a no, was I think I maybe it was Matthew. I forget exactly where he says that. But then he later on he says if I'm casting out demons by the spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has arrived and among you. like Jesus makes it pretty clear that the kingdom of heaven Pj: Hmm. Randy: It started with him. So whatever was going on before, my opinion, my theory is we started with the kingdom of God, it got corrupted, it dissolved, and essentially Jesus came and he says from the second he shows up on the scene that he's bringing it back. So kingdom of God, kingdom of heaven started with Jesus. Pj: Wow, that's a lot, man. feel like that's a... No, No, I mean, don't want to deviate ⁓ too far off of this train of thought just yet. But yeah, continue. Randy: And I'm not done. go. So tell me what you think so far because I got more. All right, so then we get back to the verse I started with where, you know, after the resurrection and Matthew 28, he says, all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Right. So that's what we get back to that. So in my, in my opinion, after the cross, after the resurrection, he makes that declaration now that all authority has been given to me. That's how that makes sense to me because it had been given to these other angels. If you want to call them princes, if you want to call them authorities, whatever it was given to them. They basically lost their right to rule through sin by disobeying God. Now Jesus came and he's reclaiming it he's saying, look, it's all been given to me. In other words, what was divided has now been reclaimed. What was corrupted is now being restored. And then he immediately says, go, go where? Into all the world and proclaim this. Let everybody know, no matter where they are, whether they're in Asia, whether in Europe, whether in Africa, whether they're worshiping Baal. or they're worshiping Shiva, or they're worshiping Zeus, whatever demon or spirit they're worshiping, go let them know it's all been restored now. It's all been given to me. I have dominion. And that to me is part of the good news that was being proclaimed is like, yes, the major heart of the gospel is, we have now been saved and what was once lost in Adam has now been restored. But I think the other part of it is the kingdom of God is now being restored as well. Not fully restored. Heaven is not here on earth in the sense that everything is perfect and God is dwelling here in the same way we might think of heaven ⁓ in his throne room, but it is being restored. His spirit is living inside of us, right, as the temples of our body. And we are seeing things that I think we will see more of as time progresses. And it's not so much that when you die, if you're good, or if you're a Christian, you get to go to heaven. To me, it's more of heaven is already here, and there's going to be a time when there's going to be a judgment, and there will be a resurrection for everyone. And those who died in Christ will not so much go to a place called heaven, but this earth will be that heaven. And it will be the fulfillment of what has already started and has started at the time of Jesus. Pj: Hmm. And so, you know, I guess what that makes me think is, you know, again, kind of questions that I've had, because if I remember correctly, in Revelation, right. So I know that there's there's going to still be heaven, but basically it talks about the new earth, right. And so there there will be a new earth. Randy: Mm-hmm. A new heaven and a new earth. Yep. Pj: Right. And so there's where there's going to be, you know, just peace and joy and happiness and no sorrow, pain, death, any of that stuff. And so it's always so that again, that this is where my mind will go back and forth because I'd be like, OK, if we're going if we die and we go to heaven and then they're like, what's the point of this new earth? And if this is after everything is said and done, then what's the point of having a perfect earth? And I guess unless the two or one or they're just completely separate places where like it's having going to be like church that we go to from, you know, new earth and I don't know. And then also what I kind of thought in relation to that was, you know, if you look in back in Genesis in the beginning, you know, God created heavens and earth. Well, you know, Adam was formed from the dust of the earth and was walking around on earth with Eve, you know, in the garden. And there was again, there was this, there was heaven and there was earth. And so this idea, so this is where my confusion came in. It's like, okay, well, you know, you need to be saved so that whenever you die, you can go to heaven and not hell. Got it right at that time. But then it's like, okay, well, where, where's that at though? Because, you know, I do know that there's going to be a new earth and a new heaven. it's just, you know, it just kind of, kind of confused me. You know what I mean? I'll be honest, it kind of still does. Randy: Yeah, I mean, it confuses me too, man. And I think, you when I hear, when I read some verses, like Paul says, like to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. But then you read about others, you know, verses where Jesus is talking about the, you know, we're just sleeping and you know, we're all going to be resurrected for this judgment. It's like, I could see how both could be true. I could see how from the perspective of the person, they close their eyes right now and then they open them in its judgment. Pj: players and what Christ, right. Randy: But for the perspective of the people who are still alive and around, it's like that person is still, they're still dead. They have to be somewhere. It's like there's something there with time and space that, you know, from the perspective of the living, looks one way. And from the perspective of the person who's actually deceased, it looks another way. Cause I do think the second we close our eyes in this, this world. we're gonna open them and we're gonna be there with Jesus, but we're gonna be there with everyone else. That's my personal opinion. We're be there with everyone else at the resurrection and it's gonna be instantaneous. So in other words, I believe that yes, we miss our loved ones, but I don't believe our loved ones missed us because I think that the second they opened their eyes in heaven, we're there with them. That's really what I think. I think that that judgment is the first place we go to. Pj: Wait, wait. Wait, so I don't know if I misheard this. like you're saying, so if our loved ones, if somebody we love dies, they don't miss us because whenever they get to heaven, we're there in spirit, is that what you're saying? Randy: I'm saying that I believe that like if I were to die right now and you don't die for another 40 years, it'll be 40 years for you before you see me again, but it'll be a second for me between when I see you again. Pj: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I got you. Okay, that makes sense outside of space and time. I got it. I got it. Randy: Yeah, because I believe I go I believe that the very next conscious thought I'm going to have is going to be at the resurrection. And and from and from your perspective here on Earth, you're like, hey, he's in heaven. And you're right. Because from my perspective, I am right. Because the second I close my eyes here, I open them there. Right. But from the earthly time and space thing, no, I'm like, I'm just waiting for the I'm asleep, waiting for the resurrection. Pj: Whoa. I got you. I got you. I see what you're saying. ⁓ Randy: But I say that again, not because I think like of heaven as, you know, ultimately like this place of reward, but as a place that already exists, the kingdom of heaven is already here. It's just not fully realized, which means right now we're living in the middle of the story. We're living between the corrupted rule and the complete restoration. The complete restoration is what's going to come when the old heaven and the old earth are gone and there's a new heaven and a new earth. But it's like, God's not gonna just throw us out the car and say, run. He's gonna say, hey, let's get up to speed first. And once you kind of get your feet under you, now we're gonna kick it off and now you could run at your own pace. And I feel like this is kind of like us with the training wheels on, right? Right now we're like learning how to live in heaven because you could participate in the kingdom of heaven right now, or you could not participate in the kingdom of heaven right now. You could be a believer who's miserable, who doesn't want anything to do with the kingdom of heaven right now on this earth. because you don't want to fellowship with other believers. You don't want to use the gifts God's gave you for good works because you don't have to. You could choose. Go ahead. Pj: Right. And, and, and you, you, you, for, the, the believer who are basically putting all the eggs in the basket of, I like it here. Now this, this place fulfills me. Well, this place is going to pass away. So you, you know, everything, you know, you're, you're putting all your eggs in that basket of being like, well, I don't need God because I like it here. Well, this place is not, you know, going to be no more. So it's crazy. And I have, I guess another thing that you know, that kind of it's always been this back and forth, right? So I know that that basically the Bible says that, you know, that there's not going to be any marriage in heaven, right? And I guess on the one hand, can see, I can see how there would not be a need, I guess, maybe for marriage, because, you know, marriage is, you know, the joining of the husband and the wife and I don't believe that there's going to be procreation in heaven. There'll be no need for that. So I don't know if in that sense of saying, Hey, there will be no need for these kinds of titles. But at the same time, thinking about, well, there's going to be no marriage in heaven. It's going to be like, okay, well, whenever me and my wife die, like when I get there, she's just going to be like, Hey, what's up guy? Like, or she's going to be like, Oh, that was my husband. And so that further led me to think about like going back to our loved ones. Like, so whenever we get there, like, or our loved ones gonna know, like, hey, that's my brother, that's my sister, that's my son, that whatever, you know, like, are they gonna know us in that sense? Or are they just gonna be like, ⁓ hey, welcome to the the goodness? I don't you know what mean? Like, because that's for for for a very base level, just anybody, I don't really care if you're religious or not, you know, you have these these just you grow up with these certain Randy: Yeah. Pj: Visions or you know ideals or whatever of like hey if you're good you go to heaven if you're bad you go to hell and what does heaven look like it's full of you know joy and happiness and all of your loved ones and all the people that you love are there waiting for you now we know that that's not the case but and that's the idea you know what mean and so it's like I don't know Randy: Yeah. Right, right. Pj: I don't man Randy: Well, I mean, from my perspective, I do think that yes, we will know each other. We will have memories. think that honestly, I think that is the only thing we take, you know, out of this life is our relationships, our relationship with God and our relationship with the people around us. I think that's the only thing that we take. So I do think that that will still exist. I tend to agree with you on like the procreation thing. I don't think there's going to be a need for that. And that's part of the reason why it says that, you know, it'll be different. There won't be. you know, people marrying or giving in marriage, I think we're going to be more like Adam and Eve work, you know, when they were first created, you know, innocent in a way that we're not innocent, you know, right now. Because look, I think and look, you know, it'd be, know, remiss if we talked all about heaven without mentioning St. Augustine, who wrote, you know, the City of God, because in the book, the City of God, and it's been a long time since I really studied it, he differentiates the City of God for us to versus the city of man, I think is what he calls it. And it's very similar to what we're talking about here because what he basically says is that, know, and it's, to me at the core of it, at least my interpretation of it is, it's that internal battle between the flesh and the spirit. It's like, are you gonna walk more in faith and in love? That's living and participating in that city of God. Or are you gonna be more focused on the world and the system of this world and the fleshly things and the worldly things and that's the... That's the city of man. And I know that the book is much deeper than that. And he's, he's kind of writing it in an answer to people who said that the fall of Rome was due to, you know, you know, ⁓ turning, turning their backs on the pagan gods and all this kind of stuff. So he's like, he's just, he's talking about so much stuff in, in, that book. However, I do think there is a core message there that relates to the whole idea of the kingdom of heaven. In other words, the Kingdom of Heaven is something that exists now and is only going to mature and only going to come to a full fulfillment after everything has been restored. So I think there's some overlap there. And I think that even for a Christian, we kind of have our own determination and we kind of make up our own mind about how much we will or won't participate. And I think that's why Jesus says like to be the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven, what do you got to do? You got to be the least of all and the servant of all. Pj: be like. Randy: Right? Those who are great in the kingdom of heaven are going to be the servants. So like you'd make that choice every day. So, you know, and I got a few verses here on what Jesus says. So he says to the Pharisees, he says, I'm sorry, to his followers, he says, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Again, alluding to the fact that, you know, you can't do it on your own. You need to have grace. He says, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter. He says that he tells the the the the scribes and Pharisees you shut the kingdom of heaven to people's faces neither yourselves nor allow others to enter He talks about the rich man how it's harder for the rich man to enter than you know for a camel to go through the eye of the needle Let's see he says unless you turn and become like children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven Now interesting that same sentiment is basically where in John he says unless you are born again, you will never enter the kingdom of God. Right. So in Matthew, he always says kingdom of heaven. He doesn't say God, but they're talking about the same thing. Become like a child again, be born again to enter into the kingdom of heaven. ⁓ he says that, you know, the meek Pj: Thank Randy: are gonna inherit the earth, right? So in other words, like the humble, the heaven is for the humble. So what is he talking about? He's talking about this heaven here on earth. Like how do we participate in heaven on earth right now? It's by being meek, it's by being humble, it's by being born again, it's by being a servant of all, putting ourselves last and putting others and God first. Like that's how we like live in the kingdom right now today. Pj: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And so here's another thing also, man, that that it just makes me think this is I mean, there's so much that you could talk about here. But, you know, so I think about, you know, we we also hear about, you know, the pearly gates that's in the Bible that comes from the Bible with the streets of gold that comes from the Bible, the walls being, ⁓ you know, having being made of what a fine gemstones and and stuff like that, right? And so it's like that also kind of starts painting this picture, but also at the same time gives me this idea about like, again, this different, heaven and what we think heaven is going to be like being two totally different things, right? So like Jesus says in John, he says, in my father's house are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself ⁓ that where I am, there you may be also. Right. And then it talks about there's many different rooms and all this thing. it's like, man, again, I get this, this, this picture of like, the, I guess what I go to is like Lord of rings, right? Where there's a big castle above. Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: a lower place and that castle is on high. It's in the elevated place and it's got pearly gates in front of it. It's the kingdom of God, his basically his castle and below it is this new heaven, or excuse me, this new earth that where we dwell and maybe have access to. Randy: Right. I mean, I think that in terms of like, you know, what the physical representation might look like that I don't think that that I mean, that very well might be what it looks like. I don't think that could be that far off, to be honest with you from what I remember reading in Revelations about, you know, New Jerusalem coming down, you know, and it gives it the mentions of the city and all this kind of stuff. Like, to me, like, I don't think that that's necessarily that far off. And I think that it's verses like that. Pj: Right, right. Yes. Yes. Randy: ⁓ that you just read about Jesus saying in my father's house, there's many mansions and things like that, that gives people this mental image of heaven as just being a destination and not a journey, just being a reward, not something that we actually have right now. ⁓ And like I said earlier, one of the things I wanted to do today was kind of distinguish between like heaven as just that destination, you know, that equals salvation. Salvation and heaven, you know, equal the same thing. If I'm saved, I'm going to heaven. If I'm in heaven, it's because I'm saved. And I wanna separate that a little bit, just a little bit, because when I read what Paul has to say, we've been talking a lot about what Jesus has to say, which I think is a great starting point. But then when Jesus is already ascended, and you have people who actually are living and being the corner, Jesus was the cornerstone, but people who are being the foundation stones, the apostles and the disciples, early church, who are building this temple of God, this church, this heaven. You know Paul starts to give some some feedback and he says to the Corinthians Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters will inherit the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven of heaven right? He says in Ephesians be sure of this that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure has no inheritance of the kingdom of Christ and of God now we know that we have inheritance because we know that inheritance only comes when someone dies and we had that death and we know that we are heirs of God with Christ and that we've received our inheritance, which is that Holy Spirit living within us. So what is Paul talking about here? Is he saying that basically there's no way you could be a saved person and have sin in your life? Or is he saying something else? And what I would challenge, and again, I'm not a pastor, I'm not a priest. I don't know this to be the fact, but when I read this, what I think this means is, I think, you Paul is the guy who said like, should we continue to sin so that grace may abound? And the answer is obviously no, but the implication is that you could because grace is always going to abound. What I think Paul is saying here, he's like saying, look guys, you are not going to be participating in this kingdom of heaven if you are adulterers, idolaters or adulterers or sexually immoral. You are not going to be participating in this kingdom of heaven if you are putting sin first in your life and you are not. Pj: All Randy: walking in love and walking in the spirit. think he's saying here that like, look, sure, sure, you might be saved. You might have the spirit of God inside of you, but you're not reaching your full potential as a Christian and what you can do here on this earth while you are here. Yeah, you might be saved. And I forget the verse that talks about saved as in from the fire. Like it talks about that. In other words, like all you're saved from is you're saved from the fire. Sure. But you're not saved for anything because you're not doing anything. Pj: Right. Randy: And I think that when I read these verses, I think a lot of people get confused by some of these verses that Paul, and he says some more in Galatians about sexually immoral and impurity and people who practice such things won't inherit the kingdom of God. I think people get confused and say that he's condemning people and saying they're not going to heaven. What I think he's saying is, sure, yeah, if you don't accept Christ and you're doing all these things, you're not going to heaven anyway. But even if you have accepted Christ and you're still struggling with some of the things that you were hung up in before, Dude, you are not really experiencing heaven right now that you could be experiencing right here today on this earth. Pj: Right. Well, and that leads me to to this other thing that I've heard and I don't remember exactly where it is. And I should say, and I've read in the Bible also doesn't it talk about like, you know, the different crowns that you get like, right. So like martyrs and obviously, you know, whenever we get there, we'll lay those down at Jesus's feet, you know, and all these things. But it's like, you know, I guess I feel like there's there's going to be a definitely like a a hierarchy, right? In, in heaven, like I wouldn't say that, you know, someone like myself even, ⁓ w would be basically in the same place as, as, you know, someone who's been martyred for Jesus or somebody like, you know, Moses or, or, you know, somebody else that, that God did such a great work through, right? So like, I, in my mind, I, I picture that there are still going to be like these different levels right and I think that there's like a there's like a base level where it's like listen yeah you're not going to hell but you're just here you won't be able to experience the full glory of God because you weren't fully committed or surrendered I think Randy: Yeah. Well, I see it a little bit different than that. I see that as something that's happening here and now in the kingdom. I don't see that as something that happens on the other side of eternity in the kingdom. I don't see that as something that happens in a new heaven and a new earth. I think on that day when we are all living in the presence of God, Jesus, whatever it looks like, I think that Paul is not going to see himself as any different than you or me. He's just going to see himself as, you know, Pj: Okay. Randy: former sinner who was saved by the grace of God, but here on this side of eternity, we do see it that way. We do see it as rewards and crowns because we do venerate people who have given of themselves and they are greater in the kingdom. The Pauls and the Mother Teresas who have made themselves the least, we see them now as greater. Pj: Whoa. ⁓ But I'm not talking about the way we see him. I'm talking about the way God sees him. You know what mean? Because like Jesus said for, didn't he say something about his disciples or they're all going to have seats in the throne room, right? So he like establishes like an authority even for them in heaven. That's different than like, I would say the rest of us. I might be getting that wrong, but I'm just saying that's... Randy: To me, I think that's all what's happening now. I think that's all part of the kingdom of heaven right now, the way it exists today. I do totally believe that it's gonna look a lot different. I don't think that there's gonna be crowns and authorities and bigger houses or mansions for people who are better servants. I think that that all is referring to things that are happening now in the kingdom as it exists today. And that when people are venerated as saints or people are seen as, you know, great spiritual leaders, it's because they were humble. They were meek. They were servants of all and considered themselves least of all. Like I said, the people like Mother Teresa, the people like, you know, St. Augustine, the people like St. Paul, all these people. And I don't know why I said St. Paul when we've been referring to him as Paul this whole time. but I honestly, I think we, if you think about the kingdom of heaven today, we, we, we venerate these people for good reason. And I think In my mind, at least, that's part of heaven as it exists now. I think that on the other side of eternity, it's going to be much more of a level playing field where we all realize that, you know, nothing we did mattered. was all just grace. Pj: Well, right. Well, but I mean, doesn't Jesus talk about, you know, storing up our treasures in heaven where they cannot be rusty, get rusted or eaten by moths and Randy: That's right here, man. That's giving it to you. That's giving it to the least of us. That's giving it to our brothers that are in prison. That's giving it to the homeless. That's giving it to the starving. To me, that's what he's talking about. He's saying like, hey, let's build up this kingdom of heaven together by giving what we have to bless other people. We're sowing seeds in other people right now. That's how I interpret that, at least. Pj: What? I don't know this. I've always thought about the way he's talking about your store. Don't like because he's he's specifically referencing right now. Like, don't worry about getting your your acknowledgement net right now. Don't worry about getting your reward right now. Store up those treasures in heaven. You know what mean? And so like. Randy: Right? Well, and how far did the early church take that? They took it so far that they sold all their possessions and divided it up amongst them. That's how far the early church took it. They were like, basically like living like as as like a communist, like little mini society there. Cause that's how far they took that. I don't, I don't think of that as like an investment that's going to compound over time and pay off when we die. I look at it more as like, no, when, Jesus is saying is like, why build that bigger house? Why have that bigger bank account? Why have those nicer things when you could be investing in the one thing you could take with you, which is those relationships. Lead more people to heaven and use what you got to do that. That's how I read it. Pj: Well, so like I'm looking at this. So second Timothy four eight, right, says, now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge will award to me on that day and not only me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. So that sounds like that crown that is going to be awarded at the end, not in the, in the, in presence and Randy: Yeah. Pj: in the present, excuse me. ⁓ And then like, you know. ⁓ Randy: But let me jump in real quick, because I would argue that that's not a physical crown. That's literally like the righteousness of Christ that's going to move us to, you know, salvation on the judgment day to the right side, not the left. Pj: Right, right. Right. Right, right. Right. And again, this is this is I'm just saying, it's it's it's of those things. And again, I'd have look up ⁓ the verses where it's referencing these crowns, whatever. But from what I remember, yeah, we might have to, ⁓ because I mean, there is just a lot to unpack when talking about heaven. just I know that ⁓ it's it's it's funny because, know, I guess Randy: We could always do a part two, Pj: It's one of those things that I felt like I had more figured out before I started walking with God so deeply, you know what mean? And then it's like... Randy: Well yeah, because the cartoons and the movies and everything made it very clear, right? Like you either die and you go to heaven or you die and you go to hell and while we're here we're on earth and you got an angel on one shoulder and a demon on the other and you know, that's all it is. Pj: Whoa. Yeah. And I think, I think a lot of it also is, is because, you know, in the earlier stages, everything is based off of assumptions of what the word of God says until you like get in it and read it for yourself. And you're like, wait a minute, I see what he's saying, but what is he talking about? You know, and, and, and, and I know obviously, you know, we're never going to have it all figured out. And, and, and I think that we're not supposed to, because then I think that would alleviate the need for faith, but it's like, man, it, you know, these, these these things, curiosities and, and, and just trying to just fully understand like, you know, like what, what is this, you know, there there's all these descriptions. It's like, there's, there's a ton of, I mean, heaven is, I think what mentioned almost like 600 times throughout the Bible. And there's these various descriptions and, you know, you would think that all so much being said about it, so much being mentioned about it. We'd have a lot clearer picture, but, ⁓ Randy: Yeah, yeah. Pj: But really it's kind of, man, it's still a mystery. Randy: Well, I mean, I know that Jesus said that that heaven was here when he was here. He said heaven is here. He said that heaven is within us. ⁓ You know, I mean, there's like all these things that tell me that like, hey, heaven is not a place we need to wait to get to. It's it's thing. It's something we can experience right now today. I would say, yeah, I say that that's fair if you want to say a version of it, but I would say we're experiencing we are not experiencing the complete restoration. Pj: A version of heaven I would say, right? A version of... Randy: we are experiencing the process of that restoration. I don't know when that restoration is gonna be complete, but I gotta imagine it's not gonna be complete until after Jesus returns. Pj: Right. But I was just referencing like how, you know, you differentiate it in the beginning, like the first heaven, the second heaven, the third heaven. Right. So like the first heaven atmosphere, second heaven outer space and then the third heaven being God's dwelling place. So I guess in that way, I mean, I look at it as far as experiencing heaven on earth right now in the same way, you know, like Paul being in prison was basically saying that his peace was not determined by his circumstances. Randy: Yeah. Pj: through the peace that he had in Jesus. So whenever you're able to get to that place to where you're in this world but not of this world, I think that you have a better experience with just having that peace and that comfort and that joy and that humility. But I think the full experience of heaven as it's going to be, or I don't know why. Randy: Yeah. Pj: Again, in my mind is just this place. It's almost like heaven is like this big, beautiful courtroom where we're all going to have to go visit, but it's not where we're going to be all the time. You know what mean? I think that there will be a, you know, I think about it again, going back to Genesis, you know, whenever Adam and Eve are over here messing up with this fruit, eating this fruit off the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It's like, you know, they do this and then they figure out they're naked and they go hide and like God, like it comes walking through the garden like, Hey, Adam, where are you? I like, well, where was he before that? Probably in heaven. You know what mean? And so I. Yeah, I don't know, man, I'm sorry, it's all over the place because there's so many different things. Randy: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. No, no, it's good. Let me go back though, because you just mentioned the three heavens that we started with, the three definitions. So I would say this, the first definition, the physical place, as it mentions the sky, outer space, blah, blah. I would say that that we just talked about. In Revelation, it says the old heaven and the old earth is going to pass away and there's going be a new. So I think that version of heaven, we got a clear direction from God on what's going to happen there. Pj: Yes. Randy: Heaven as God's domain, as God's throne, well we already know that He dwells within us now. He dwells within our hearts, that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. So I would say that from one perspective you could say that that has changed drastically and if it's not fully fulfilled, it's definitely, you know, the most important portion of it has been fulfilled. And in the third heaven, in terms of like God's like will, God's kingdom in terms of like, you know, his authority. We know that what Jesus said was that, you know, all authority in heaven and earth has been given to him. And so now, you know, everything is under his domain once again. And so that one I would say is, is that one's been restored from the perspective of the authorities given to him, but it's still in work and from the perspective of not everyone submits to his. authority who are here on this earth. So I see in all three of those things, the transformation happening and the fulfillment that's to come. Pj: Right, yeah, because Paul says in 2 Corinthians, he says something about getting caught up to the third heaven. Right? then so like, again, me thinking of heaven as like this place. then, you know, in Revelation, it talks about, you the Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: basically the doors of heaven opening and Jesus coming out and the army behind him on white horses and he's in the road. So it's like, again, I think, I think that, that heaven is a place and, and almost an experience or like a ⁓ description of an experience as well, I guess. Does that make sense? Randy: Yeah, I mean, I think it aligns with the different ⁓ definitions that we went over a couple times. ⁓ again, I think for me, I think that what we typically miss is the fact that I really do believe the Bible hints at it, even though it's not explicit. But I think that what we mostly miss is the fact that heaven is, ⁓ the kingdom of heaven is here and now, and it is a restoration of what once was. Pj: But right, but right. Randy: It is a restoration of once once what once was and that restoration has started and it's not complete and it's still taking place. And what people normally picture as a heaven in terms of an afterlife is the ultimate fulfillment of what has already started and has already taken place. you know, I think that depending on a way a person lives their lives now, they are experiencing more or less of heaven here on this earth right now. I think the people that we venerate, are really experiencing heaven right now. The people who give of themselves and put others first and we do see as great. Like I keep saying, like Mother Teresa is a good example. Those people I think are experiencing like the closest thing to heaven that you can experience. And it's crazy to think about because they might be surrounded by poverty. They might be like, you know, living the lowliest life imaginable. But, but again, I think that that's. Ultimately, you know those relationships that love that were meant to walk in ⁓ That an experience with each other and with God I think that's you know, that's what he's talking about when he's when he's saying the kingdom of God is here Pj: Okay. Man, yeah, there's, there's some good stuff in there that I would say I can, I can definitely see and agree with and just other things that I would just have so many questions on, you know what I mean? But I get it, man. That's and that Randy: Hey, well we could always do a part two. ⁓ But let me just let the record show that at the start of this, before we hit record, you were like, hey, I'm glad you got a lot to say, because I don't know how much I got to say about Heaven. And here we are talking about a part two. ⁓ Pj: Yeah, well, because, it's you bring up, you know, some some points and perspectives that I hadn't had or heard before. And it's interesting. And so I would definitely like to maybe go a little bit deeper into that. And then, man, like I, you know, again, do I think about throughout the course of my whole life, you know, prior to walking with the Lord and even now and just again, the different variations of heaven in the descriptions. And I've heard people preach on it and Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: And it's all interesting, And I know that I think it's funny because whenever, you know, I mean, I believe that you could probably take 10 people and put them in a room and ask them, what do you think heaven is going to be like? And they can be scholars and pastors and priests and all theologians, all of it. But I think you'd get 10 different answers because I think no matter what we even see in the scriptures, I think we all have like our own personal, you know, we kind of interject ourselves into like what heaven would be like to us in accordance with what we do understand about what the Bible says about it. So it's just one of those things, man. It's like I said, there's a lot, a lot there. There really is, you know. Randy: Yeah, 100%, 100%. All right, man, well, hey, I think that just about does it. What do you think? Pj: Yeah, I think we're at least at a good stopping point for the time being ⁓ to maybe potentially pick this up for maybe a part two. Randy: Sounds good. Well, hey, I think that does it for this episode of the walk talk. So thank you all so much for listening. And if you haven't already, please follow the show. And before you go, leave your thoughts in the comments below. God bless. Pj: God bless.