Latest / Behind The Village Podcast / Why We Don't Talk About Death | Lauren Andrew, Terri Gortnar & Carol Richardson

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Why We Don't Talk About Death | Lauren Andrew, Terri Gortnar & Carol Richardson · Behind The Village Podcast

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You're listening to the Behind the Village podcast,
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where we invite you to join us on a journey to
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understand how to live a life worth living. This
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week, we're joined by three incredible guests
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who've built their lives and careers around one
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thing most of us try to avoid talking about,
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death. Together, we talk about why our culture
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is so quick to celebrate birth and go quiet with
0:23
death, what it actually looks like to make space
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for grief in your everyday life, and the importance
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of having these conversations. Before we get
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into it, I'd like to give you a trigger warning.
0:34
This episode mentions child illness and death
0:36
as Terry discusses the passing of her daughter
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Claire and the future passing of her son Joseph.
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We do not go into detail of Claire's passing,
0:44
but do talk about Terry's experience as a parent
0:47
and caregiver. If this is not something you're
0:50
able to sit with today, please take care of yourself
0:52
and come back to this one another time. With
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that, let's get into the conversation. My name
1:00
is Lauren Andrew and I am the co -founder of
1:02
Awake. So we are a company that deals with different
1:07
areas of death. So half of our business is working
1:11
with families on ceremony, which is a very beautiful
1:13
piece of what we do. And that's where we started.
1:17
And the other half of our business works directly
1:19
with funeral homes and cemeteries for sustainable
1:22
solutions for cremated ashes. Hi, I'm Terry.
1:26
I am... co -founder of the CLN2 Foundation, and
1:32
we advocate for a rare disease that affects 13
1:37
children in Canada, but about 300 in the world.
1:41
And I'm also a co -founder of a floral event
1:44
company that focuses on making meaningful events.
1:52
around flowers. And I'm Carol. I am the co -founder
1:55
of Compass Rose Floral Design and we differentiate
1:59
through creating meaningful experiences where
2:05
flowers actually can help communicate and give
2:09
us a place where sometimes words fail but they
2:12
also help represent life and they're special
2:16
because they also come to an end. How did you
2:21
guys end up in this industry, I guess? So interestingly
2:27
enough, I think like most people who find themselves
2:30
in the afterlife profession, anything to do with
2:34
death and grieving or hospice, there's many people
2:38
that do start because it was something that they
2:41
grew up with. So it's a family business. There's
2:42
many independent funeral homes, for example,
2:44
that have been in families for generations. I'm
2:47
the other half of that coin where I never in
2:51
a million years thought that this is what I was
2:52
going to be working in. It became a calling that
2:55
came out of completely nowhere, left field. So
2:57
I've been in event planning for over 12 to 15
3:02
years now. And in planning weddings and events,
3:06
I had many people push me to get. ordained or
3:11
become an officiant so that I could also marry
3:13
my couples. So in starting in weddings and becoming
3:17
a part of such an interesting and exciting piece
3:21
of someone's life, you get to know their family,
3:24
their friends, their stories. And I'd say about
3:27
12 months after some of these wonderful wedding
3:30
ceremonies happened, I would actually get a call
3:33
from them again because they had experienced
3:35
a loss in their family. Because there was that
3:39
comfortability with working with me on drafting
3:42
ceremony and script for something as exciting
3:45
as their wedding or a baby blessing, when they
3:48
went through a loss, I had the honor of being
3:50
that first phone call to help them write a script
3:52
or a celebration in order to honor their loved
3:54
one. So I completely fell into afterlife death
3:59
services in a really beautiful and meaningful
4:02
way, getting to work with families on how to
4:04
best honor and... commemorate their loved ones.
4:08
But I never would have thought that moving into
4:11
weddings, I would be working in celebrations
4:14
of life. There's a lot of different things that
4:18
people go through in life, but birth and death,
4:20
we're all going to be a part of that journey.
4:22
So that's really the start of how I came into
4:26
this profession and then how Awake came after
4:29
that, but that's how I got here. So I have an
4:33
event background as well. And, but I thought
4:38
that I was going to, I got into software, like
4:41
enterprise software, and I thought I was going
4:43
to like soar up and be a CEO and like live my
4:46
best life and have no worries. And then I had
4:52
children and they got diagnosed with a terminal
4:55
disease when my daughter was four and my son
4:58
was two. And that completely changed my outlook.
5:03
It made me realize how short life is, how from
5:08
one day to the next, your life can change in
5:11
moments. And so my whole trajectory and how I
5:17
thought changed, my friends changed, my family
5:21
changed, everything changed. And so I started
5:24
to realize what was important, and it was making
5:27
these meaningful moments for my children and
5:31
for me. And I realized how our health care system
5:36
was not giving what these families needed. And
5:44
I knew I could be that voice. I had the education.
5:47
I had the privilege of being at home. And so
5:51
I didn't take that lightly. And so I jumped into
5:54
being an advocate. work with other families and,
6:05
you know, make a difference in how even the Canadian
6:09
healthcare system works. But more importantly,
6:13
I wanted to really, really capture these lives
6:18
of anyone that's gone through a disease or not.
6:23
Like I just, when my daughter passed and going
6:27
into that funeral home, I'd never experienced
6:30
death. on that level. And so I just knew I couldn't
6:37
let another family go through this. It was the
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exact same idea I had when my kids got diagnosed.
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There was no treatment in Canada. And I brought
6:45
that treatment to Canada because I said, I will
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never let another family go through this. And
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with my husband's help, we were able to do that.
6:55
And so creating this floral company with Carol
6:59
has... has helped bring something to my heart
7:05
that I can share with people that are experiencing
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those things. I just completed a corporate career
7:15
of over 30 years in software where I held global
7:19
roles. That's where Terry and I actually met,
7:22
where I always said, this brilliant person beside
7:25
me, someday I'm going to work for you. You heard
7:29
her story, and now we've come together as business
7:32
partners. And the reason behind all this is it's
7:36
deeply personal. I've always loved florals. I've
7:38
always loved floral design. I've always loved
7:41
the story they tell and they capture. My husband
7:44
and I have an art book from the Art Gallery of
7:48
Canada of Inuit art, but it's called We All Have
7:54
Stories. And this notion of individual stories
7:58
and every story is different for all of us has
8:02
always captured me. I'm very intrigued by everybody's
8:06
stories. So Compass Rose, even the name, the
8:10
Compass Rose is the navigation compass on a sailboat.
8:13
But for Terry and I, it also means navigating
8:16
life's journey together and all these moments.
8:21
And it's through these personal experiences.
8:24
Terry's story with her children, which we're
8:26
intimately involved with. We live down the street.
8:30
We're neighbors, too. And when I lost my father,
8:34
and he was a great mentor, but I wanted to do
8:38
the florals. And my mother said, no, there's
8:41
too much going on. We're too emotional. And we're
8:44
in deep grief. And we got to the funeral home,
8:47
and she looked at the florals, and she said,
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are you sure you want to do these? I said, I
8:53
absolutely want to do these. And even more recently,
8:58
you know, I had somebody say to me, oh, you know,
9:02
some of those traditional floral sprays, they
9:05
make me feel more sad. And, you know, through
9:09
Terry's experience, my personal experiences,
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we realized that one way we can help reframe
9:14
this and maybe bring a little bit of joy. to
9:19
someone through a terrible hard time is through
9:22
the expression of flowers. And that's a big part
9:26
while we're doing this. And we want to be part
9:29
of that experience to support people through
9:33
our engagement. So we're not just, you know,
9:37
delivering a flower. want to bring more to this.
9:40
And that's why we're doing it. And it's our driving
9:43
light. And we say no to other things because
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this is what we want to be. Yeah. You all had
9:52
points that were worth exploring. And I think
9:55
for me, one thing that overarched all of it is,
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you know, why do we feel like it's important
10:01
to talk about the concept of death or things
10:03
that are within that space? Why are we doing
10:06
that? Yeah. Number one, this is an inevitability
10:10
that everyone's going to have to deal with at
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some point in their life multiple times. It's
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just a matter of how much involvement people
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feel like they want to give, as well as things
10:21
that are going to come completely unplanned throughout
10:24
your life. I think the biggest issue that we
10:28
have in our North American Canadian culture as
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a whole is that most people... are afraid of
10:37
the unknown. And that concept of being afraid
10:40
of the unknown happens in all aspects of your
10:44
life. So people's fear of what happens if I get
10:47
fired one day because they don't know what the
10:50
next step would be. The fear of the unknown happens
10:52
on a daily basis. What happens if I'm late for
10:54
my appointment? It's the what happens question
10:58
that people get all the time. So I think that
10:59
that's highlighted when you talk about death.
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I know I'm jumping ahead of myself here, but
11:08
reading ahead on some of the things that we thought
11:10
we would discuss today, it's why do people celebrate
11:14
birth and then decide to sit in silence about
11:17
death? We at least all have some even minute
11:22
understanding of how the birth process happens
11:25
and how we get from not having a person to a
11:31
baby arriving, right? Like we have an idea that,
11:34
you know, it takes. you know, two people doing
11:37
whatever they need to do or potentially through
11:39
IVF or other ways. And then nine months happens
11:42
and then there's a baby. When it comes to death,
11:44
it's all about what you choose to believe. And
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the scientific components of death are around
11:52
what happens to our bodies, right? So when it
11:55
actually comes to the conversation about death,
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there's so much unknown that I feel like that.
12:02
That triggers a lot of people and there's a lot
12:05
of emotion around how that could be scary to
12:10
some. And that's where I think having these conversations
12:13
and being able to kind of remove the veil from
12:16
certain aspects of the death and dying process
12:19
or what happens afterwards can help people deal
12:24
with death as it comes. My husband made a comment.
12:28
He said, even at the hockey game, if a hockey
12:30
player passes away, there's a moment of silence.
12:34
So if you think about how it's normalized around
12:38
us to be quiet and silent about this topic, it's
12:42
there. And if we open our eyes and ears to it,
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then we start to realize there's cultural aspects,
12:48
there's fear. We don't want, like as Lauren was
12:51
saying, we just don't want to acknowledge something
12:53
because of the... the sheer unknown on the other
12:56
side of what that is. So we just don't want to
13:01
talk about it. Or if we do, we don't know how
13:04
to open the conversation. We don't know where
13:06
to go to get the help. We don't know. I find
13:10
that people are really afraid of the process
13:13
and then they don't look for the resources. Like
13:18
they're so afraid of the death. How will I feel?
13:23
Am I going to be in pain? Especially if you have
13:27
a disease that is terminal or as you get older.
13:31
And there's so many resources where you can be
13:35
comfortable, where you can be surrounded by your
13:38
loved ones. But they can't even have that conversation
13:42
because they just don't want to talk about it.
13:46
But if you had talked about it. It could have
13:49
been a very different experience. And I see this
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a lot, especially in pediatrics, where parents
13:56
just don't want to come to terms with that one
14:00
day happening. So they don't make a plan and
14:03
then they live with that regret. And I just...
14:08
Like that's when this conversation came up. I
14:11
just wanted to share that so much. Like there
14:14
is so many options. It's not always have to be
14:19
this scary thing where you're hooked up to machines
14:21
and you don't get to touch the people you love.
14:25
There is options. Well, it's because we're trained,
14:30
programmed to deal with this out of necessity.
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So each step of the way, we're confronting it.
14:38
at the point of you cannot avoid it now, right?
14:41
So we bring ourselves to these moments where
14:44
now we're very much in an emotional state. And
14:50
we're going to have to take major decisions,
14:53
big decisions, complicated decisions in a reactive
14:57
mode because this need to deal only at the moment
15:02
of necessity. And I think that's where if we
15:06
can shift this a little bit and start to at least
15:09
get, you know, start by getting ahead by a foot.
15:14
a little bit more proactively to help ourselves,
15:17
I think we'd all be in a better place going through
15:21
something that we know is hard. Yeah. And I think,
15:24
you know, all of that, everything that you guys
15:27
have talked about just kind of cements a thing
15:30
in my head that is not just about like, yes,
15:33
there is absolute fear, right? And there's that
15:36
reactivity, as you mentioned, like why did this
15:38
become such a common thing? It's like, it's kind
15:41
of weird, right? If in such a normal... human
15:44
thing to have babies or to grow and to you know
15:48
get old to you know to pass as well like it's
15:52
such a normal thing it's a human thing it is
15:55
the most human thing and i and and just to be
16:00
clear there's there's many indigenous cultures
16:03
um south american cultures asian cultures as
16:07
many cultures across the globe who do a very
16:10
good job of intertwining the relationship with
16:16
their dead into their everyday life. Like these
16:19
cultures and these people exist and they're all
16:22
over the place. I think that we could do a better
16:24
service to ourselves and to our families by learning
16:28
more about different cultures who. do a much
16:32
better job at ensuring that, you know, when their
16:34
children grow up, that they're talking about
16:37
their loved ones that are no longer there. They
16:38
have their own spiritual rituals and ceremony
16:42
that happen throughout every single year that
16:45
acknowledges their dead. It's not just at time
16:48
of death, like we've talked about, and I'm sure
16:50
we'll get into a little bit regarding how I think
16:52
one of the ways that we can lift the veil is
16:54
also to plan, is to think ahead. That once you
16:57
do some of that work, The fear of the unknown
17:00
starts to shift to the back because there are
17:02
some knowns now. You've made some choices. So
17:04
things become a little less scary when you've
17:08
done some of the work yourself. When you've lost
17:10
somebody, we have this predetermined notion of
17:13
what it means to walk into a funeral home. I
17:16
don't want to be there for a million reasons
17:18
I don't want to be there. But there's a, there's...
17:22
preconceived notions of what's available to me,
17:24
what it's going to look like, what it's going
17:26
to cost, how I have to process through this.
17:29
And what we don't know is you could actually
17:34
change that experience that you've got preconceived
17:38
in your mind. And it's okay to ask for things
17:41
and change things and reframe what that's going
17:44
to look like. It is possible, but most people
17:49
don't realize that it's possible. Even the shift
17:52
to celebration of life, and I know there's different
17:55
definitions of these things, but if we think
17:57
about what a more traditional funeral is about
18:00
and the religious aspects and the more ceremonial
18:03
and structured aspects versus the notion of a
18:07
celebration of life where there's a little bit
18:09
more time to prepare and it's more personalized
18:11
and unique to the individual being celebrated,
18:15
there's a big shift that's going on that... People
18:20
are starting to realize, but it's still not talked
18:25
about. Yep. That's what I wanted to touch on
18:28
because, Terry, you brought up, you know, the
18:29
fear of the unknown. And I was just curious about
18:33
the known versus unknown. As we've spoken about,
18:36
it's a human moment that it's going to touch
18:39
us all in various ways. And in the end, we all
18:41
meet it, right? So when it's known, when you
18:43
have known timeline or you know someone. who
18:48
is going through that, does that affect whether
18:51
or not you want to talk about it? You know, in
18:53
your experiences, I was curious if people are
18:55
more open when they have to face it more readily
18:59
versus pretending like it's not going to happen
19:02
because they don't have to deal with it. I find
19:05
that people are either on one side or the total
19:09
other, like in complete denial that, you know,
19:14
there might be a cure. My child might be different.
19:20
Like, there's hope, like, you know. And so they
19:25
don't even think about it. And I have to say,
19:28
like, I knew that there was a timeline for my
19:30
daughter, but I never went to the funeral home
19:32
until the last few days. And I was prepared in
19:37
all the other ways. I knew I wanted her to be
19:39
home. She had hospice care the last few years.
19:43
She didn't go to the doctor. She was surrounded
19:45
by people she loved. I knew that part. I did
19:48
not venture into the next part. And I did it
19:53
in grief. And it was so hard that if I didn't
19:58
have good people around me to do the things to
20:03
make it special, it would have been that cookie
20:06
cutter thing that I picked out in a catalog because
20:10
The brain fog was just so heavy. And having Carol
20:15
do the flowers, my best friend stayed for a week.
20:18
And going through that process, I realized, wow,
20:21
I thought I was prepared, but I wasn't. And then
20:25
that made me really want to even talk about it
20:27
more. Because I really focused on the health
20:33
part and having... Those parts taken care of,
20:37
like not experiencing pain, like that just meant
20:40
so, I wanted it to be peaceful. That meant the
20:42
most to me. But I didn't think about the after.
20:46
Yet you were so proactive in the care aspect.
20:49
Yes, so proactive. Terry was like, are you okay
20:53
if I? Yes, yes. She was so proactive in preparing
20:59
for the next phase of how this disease impacted.
21:04
her children. So she was ahead of what did they
21:09
need to have next? What was the next equipment?
21:11
What was the next caregiver? What were the skills
21:13
that were required? What were the Medicaid? Everything
21:16
around this, she stood ahead of it and was ready
21:19
for it in the moment. But when we got to this
21:22
other aspect, that's where it was just too hard
21:25
to go there. And, you know, and that's just...
21:30
you know, very personal story. But I think as
21:32
we experience these things, even what bothers
21:37
me so much is television. I mean, even this weekend
21:42
we watched a program and one of the characters
21:45
was diagnosed as terminally ill and he wanted
21:50
to talk to his best friend about it. And she
21:52
went into that, no, we have hope. There's cures
21:55
for everything. He's like, look, there's... I
21:59
want to talk to you about what I need you to
22:01
help me with. And she wouldn't have the conversation.
22:06
Right. So TV is reinforcing this rather than
22:10
thinking about, well, how do we confront that
22:12
conversation? Because we don't want to hear that
22:14
our loved one is not going to be with us soon.
22:17
But we need to prepare for that. But we don't
22:19
know how to have the conversation, how to talk
22:22
about it. Yeah. And it almost feels like, you
22:25
know. that there are two main aspects that people
22:29
aren't talking about. And like you said, you
22:32
know, there's like a preparation of the loved
22:35
one is currently going through it. And, you know,
22:37
how do we plan ahead and prepare so that, you
22:41
know, the, I guess, pre -passing, if you will,
22:45
this concept. And then there's when it happens,
22:48
the more technical side of like, okay, so what
22:52
happens now? you know, that someone has passed,
22:55
there is all these protocols. Are there rules?
22:58
Is there regulation? Is there like, you know,
23:01
like you said, I need to go to a funeral home
23:03
now. Which one do I go? What do I do? How do
23:06
I like? There's all this other whole host of
23:09
things. And these two feel like, you know, from
23:11
the sounds of it, two very different feelings,
23:15
two very different ways of tackling, but both
23:18
are equally as important to be able to talk about
23:22
them. Absolutely. What we're seeing and learning
23:28
is that, you know, there's a raft of decisions
23:35
that need to be made when you enter a funeral
23:38
home. And those questions have to be answered
23:43
and they have to be answered and documented in
23:46
a very short period of time, which is overwhelming
23:50
to be thinking about. Am I making the right decision?
23:54
Do I know what the person, how they want it to
23:57
be honored? Do I actually know these things?
23:59
And if not, you're basically almost coming up
24:05
with answers yourself or having a chance for
24:11
the family to come together and make some decisions.
24:15
But it's a... big list. And some of those questions,
24:20
if you know what they are, if we knew what they
24:22
were, we could at least try and get some of them
24:25
answered in advance, right? Jumping onto that,
24:28
I think in handling how can we continue to open
24:33
this conversation and topic to other people is
24:36
this is going to be the most standard response
24:39
to everything is, you know, start yourself. But
24:42
it's true. If you go and you take the time, to
24:46
pre -plan for yourself it makes that conversation
24:49
with your loved ones that much easier so when
24:52
people ask me what would you recommend I do highly
24:55
recommend that you pre -plan and that doesn't
25:00
have to be going down the full road of finding
25:03
a funeral home that you like And actually going
25:08
through picking out, you know, exactly what the
25:10
casket looks like or the urn and deciding if
25:12
you would like to be in a cemetery or if you
25:15
would like your loved ones to take you back home
25:17
or if you want to be scattered in your cottage.
25:21
You can be that specific, but you could also
25:23
just sit down and say, I know for sure that I
25:28
don't want to be in a cemetery. Or I know for
25:30
sure that I do want to be in a cemetery. would
25:37
love to have a funeral right after my death or
25:39
that I would like my family to wait and do something
25:42
12 months later because I know it'll be hard
25:45
on my sister and my children and all of these
25:47
other things. So if you just yourself thought
25:51
about what you would like to happen to you when
25:54
your time comes and you share that on a piece
25:57
of paper and staple it to your will, if you want
26:00
to be that chill about it, great. But at least
26:02
now everyone knows. Lauren definitely doesn't
26:06
feel like she wants to be in a cemetery. So if
26:08
I have to make this decision for her on the day
26:10
and we've talked about nothing else, I at least
26:12
know that she'd prefer cremation and that we
26:14
could deal with it in a year's time. That's truly
26:16
the nuts and bolts of it. Like if everyone could
26:18
go and make an appointment with a funeral home
26:20
and have all these things done, that would be
26:23
my preferred conversation with everybody. But
26:26
I realize that's asking a lot. With my family,
26:29
we did have... like a visitation. It was important
26:33
for my in -laws to have a priest. I didn't want
26:38
to have a service. I didn't want to have it in
26:40
a church, but it was coming together to bring
26:43
both sides. Like I didn't want to just totally
26:47
ignore everything that they've grown up with.
26:51
So I think it's important to, yes, pick everything
26:56
that you want, but you want to make sure that
27:00
You're including your family in what they need
27:04
for closure. I think there's a balance around
27:08
that that's important. Yeah, I think that's the
27:12
difficult piece. So whenever I get on a first
27:15
call with any family who is looking to – they
27:19
either know that there's a timeline and they're
27:21
trying their best to pre -prepare for that or
27:23
they've just had a recent loss. The first thing
27:26
they do is look at me with doe eyes and say,
27:29
what do we do? And it's almost overwhelming to
27:35
know that the world is your oyster and you have
27:39
a bajillion options, right? And you bring up
27:42
some really important points, Terry. There's
27:44
a very delicate balancing act between what you
27:47
think your loved one would have wanted, what
27:51
you need to get out of this from a grief perspective,
27:54
and then what others need to get out of this.
27:58
And again, there's a spectrum because truly at
28:02
the end of the day, there are certain people
28:04
that have to make the decisions and those decisions
28:05
are going to be the decisions that get made,
28:07
unfortunately, because every family has different
28:10
relationships, people getting along, people who
28:12
haven't spoke to each other for 20 years and
28:14
now they're all coming back together again because
28:16
of this loss. But I think the main thing that
28:19
people should at least have top of mind is if
28:23
the initial decisions or celebrations aren't
28:27
exactly what they wanted. It doesn't stop you
28:30
or impede you from doing something on your own.
28:33
This is where I think, you know, the idea of
28:35
pre -planning is actually fairly important. Like
28:37
you mentioned, Lauren, just simply because everybody
28:40
knows you, your friends, your family, they know
28:43
you through different lenses, different, you
28:45
know, we are multifaceted people just naturally,
28:49
right? You are going to want to highlight certain
28:52
things as friends or as family or as distant
28:55
relatives or whatever differently because I know
28:58
this person differently. I've had different experiences
29:01
with these people. So, you know, having to put
29:05
that together and pre -planning just for yourself
29:07
is like, what do I want out of this? Because
29:11
this is how I want to be remembered. This is
29:13
how I want, you know. for my family or for the
29:17
benefit of my family for things to happen in
29:20
a certain way absolutely i just find that it's
29:23
just so hard to get people to even think about
29:27
it i married into like an eastern european family
29:30
like forget about it like we just don't talk
29:34
about it you have no idea what's in their will
29:36
like you you can't have a conversation they went
29:40
through losing their granddaughter they still
29:43
will not talk about losing their grandson. It's
29:47
too hard. So then they can't even talk about
29:50
themselves. And they've seen that funerals can
29:53
rip a family apart. Like when you have that matriarch
29:57
gone, then all of a sudden the family doesn't
30:00
get together anymore. People are unhappy with.
30:04
having a will, not having a will. And then so
30:07
they can see the damage that it does, but then
30:10
they still can't be proactive about it. And it's,
30:13
it brings a frustration and it's just like, what
30:17
tools can we bring to people who are so stuck?
30:21
And I love how Lauren, how high level you just
30:25
started the conversation. Like if we can just
30:28
even have it that high level, you want to be
30:30
buried in the cemetery, you want the church.
30:33
Like if we just knew some little things like
30:35
that, then it would make this a lot easier. A
30:40
hundred percent. And there's been, I am allowed
30:44
to laugh because the family would laugh about
30:46
these things too. But I've had many clients where
30:48
they'd be like. all my dad said was, you know,
30:53
stick me in the ground upside down, no ceremony,
30:56
no this, like I want any money. And that's all
30:59
the information that they got because you would
31:01
ask a pointed question and he knew he had final
31:04
days. And even he didn't want to talk about it,
31:06
right? But he's just like, stick me upside down,
31:09
put me in the ground. And that's what they would
31:11
joke around about. So at least from that perspective,
31:14
they knew that they had the okay to be casual
31:18
about it. Right. Like it doesn't need to be specific.
31:22
I remember even asking my parents, like when
31:24
when you close your eyes and think about when
31:28
you're gone and we're here, like what do you
31:31
want or what do you really not want? They said,
31:33
we want to be where you are. I said, OK, then
31:35
I guess I'm cremating you and I'm going to keep
31:37
you until I decide what I'm doing with myself
31:39
and then we'll all be together. Right. And I
31:41
didn't need to push. And sometimes you can't
31:43
push. Right. And that's enough of a response.
31:47
for us to move on with. And then I have other
31:49
people in my life who are so type A pre -planned.
31:52
I know exactly like the urn that they want, the
31:55
songs that they want played and all of those
31:58
other things, which is great, but you're going
31:59
to have a spectrum of those things in between.
32:01
And you're right. It is really, really difficult
32:04
with the family members who are completely, completely
32:09
shut off from these experiences. Knowing those
32:12
things really helps get you off on the right
32:15
pathway. to navigate yourself through where you're
32:18
going to go next. And there's nothing wrong with
32:24
these conversations. They don't have to dominate
32:25
every day of your life, right? But they do help
32:28
you live your life, right? And they do help you
32:31
celebrate a life well lived. And one of the things
32:34
that's always bothered me is people... use eulogies
32:39
to tell the person that's deceased what they
32:41
really think about them, to honor them in a way.
32:45
And I'm like, but they can't hear you. Why aren't
32:49
we telling them that before they're gone? And
32:53
sometimes looking somebody in the eye and telling
32:56
them that is a really hard thing to do. But I
32:58
write letters. As a result, I write letters and
33:03
let people know because I can get it out that
33:05
way. But tell people, even this notion of a living
33:09
celebration of life, it's a new concept. A lot
33:12
of people haven't even heard about it yet. A
33:15
friend of mine in Toronto had a friend of hers
33:18
who was going into hospice and they asked her,
33:20
would you host the celebration of life? And she
33:22
said, we would absolutely adore doing that for
33:25
you. One condition, you have to be there. And
33:31
they held it with him there and rejoiced together.
33:37
You know, just the way that my brain works, but
33:41
I find it really interesting, kind of. Trying
33:45
to find all the pieces and all the dots that
33:47
connect with everything that you guys have talked
33:50
about. And, you know, I love the way that you
33:52
put it, Carol, the fact that there is an emotional
33:54
preparation that needs to happen. Right. And
33:57
then there's a tactical preparation, which is
33:59
like, you know, what goes where, where am I being,
34:02
what is happening with my body, all these kinds
34:04
of things. But it sounds like it's a way of expressing
34:07
who I am as an individual. I want my last raw,
34:12
I want my last thing that happens here to be
34:17
the most me. Or what my family members want is
34:22
for it to feel the most like me. It's about that
34:25
individuality and you have a chance to actually
34:28
put your voice in it and not just let someone
34:31
else make that decision for you. And just that
34:34
clued into my head and I was like, ah, that's
34:36
the purpose. I have a real idea of what I would
34:40
want my funeral to be. I want it to be trap rap
34:45
music. I want people to be dressed really brightly
34:49
and crying really loudly. And I want my best
34:53
friend to tell all my secrets I said I would
34:56
take to the grave. And I want her to call out
34:59
everyone who shouldn't be there who's faking
35:02
it. It's amazing. So we have Google's spreadsheets
35:06
with passwords. And when I pass, she'll get hers.
35:09
I'll get mine. And, like, that's how it's going
35:11
to be. Don't forget your ship in the Vikings.
35:13
That's right. And then I'm like, put me in a
35:15
boat and set me on fire. Like, I will not. Statement.
35:20
I'm leaving this earth in a bang and I want everyone
35:25
to know. And we all do now. And so I want everyone
35:30
to feel like me, like let's, let's do something
35:33
like, right. Like let's, let's do whatever you
35:37
want to do. Like no one wants to hear trap music,
35:40
but you will that day. So that's how I feel like
35:45
people should. approach these type of things
35:49
like do you it's your day 100 100 and that's
35:54
the hard part because just like jean you mentioned
35:57
there's your logical brain of like hey give me
35:59
the checklist and what needs to be done right
36:02
but then there's the whole other part and more
36:05
often than not you're not going to have both
36:06
of those sides of your brain working on the same
36:08
day it's just like it's right okay what what
36:10
do we all need to get out of this and what's
36:12
that last imprint that that person is leaving
36:15
what is the last you know memory that i want
36:19
people to have of me or of them on that final
36:23
day what are we taking with us as we walk through
36:25
the rest of our journey here on earth right and
36:28
that that is the difficult part if this was a
36:30
conversation about what are the steps that i
36:33
need to do when i experience a death we would
36:35
have got off this call 20 to 30 minutes ago.
36:38
Cause it's just like, I can easily put together
36:40
a checklist for anybody. But I think what people
36:42
need to realize is that checklist will be so
36:45
much easier if you deal with all the emotional
36:49
and thoughtful components of what this means
36:52
for you moving forward. Because what people,
36:53
I don't think put enough time and thought into
36:56
is once you've made these decisions is how are
36:59
you living with that death for the rest of your
37:01
life? And that can be as simple as you've chosen
37:04
a resting space that's like six hours away from
37:07
most of their loved ones lived, right? Like something
37:10
as simple as that. And if you think that moving
37:12
through the rest of your life, you want to physically
37:15
visit that internment space, then that's where
37:18
you have to sit and be like, okay, that checklist
37:20
got a little bit more difficult because now we
37:21
have to find a cemetery or a resting space that
37:24
is within a half an hour radius of these groups
37:28
of people. Or maybe that changes it from a full
37:30
body burial to... cremation and then we can all
37:32
take a piece of our mom and bring her with us
37:35
wherever we are so you just have to think about
37:38
and that's the main thing when a death happens
37:40
it's not just gone you are living with that death
37:44
for the rest of your life and how you choose
37:46
to live with that death is very different than
37:49
every single other person that's dealt with that
37:51
exact same death for terry to talk about all
37:56
of these things like you know what i would do
37:58
as an event planner i'd be like here's a qr code
38:01
with the playlist so every time you think of
38:03
her you can be in your car you open up spotify
38:05
and you're listening to that playlist right like
38:08
that's so fun and that would be the way that
38:11
i would connect with a bunch of my friends is
38:13
the music that we share because you go right
38:14
back to remember the concert we went to or that
38:16
club we went to in our early 20s or you know
38:19
just let you know all the food that we we did
38:22
here today was food that Terry hates. Why? Just
38:24
because we thought it was funny. So it's like,
38:26
oh my God, every time I eat, you know, a pickle,
38:28
it's like, gosh, you hated pickles. But like,
38:30
you know what I mean? It's so true. I hate pickles.
38:35
That's actually so funny. But like these little
38:37
things, I think are the ones that stick with
38:39
you forever. So thank you for sharing what you
38:42
would like to do at your celebration of life.
38:46
Because those are the things that I think, and
38:48
it brings the energy and the fun and the reminiscing
38:50
component back to those conversations. Same with
38:54
the living funeral, which they're happening a
38:56
lot more often now than ever before. And people
39:00
said, why would you do that? It's just like a
39:01
birthday party or an anniversary or a wedding.
39:03
Like, why do we only tell people on those special
39:05
milestone moments why they're incredible and
39:08
why they mean so much to us? So yeah, pick a
39:10
date. Don't need to call it a living funeral
39:12
or a living cemetery. Just call it, you know.
39:14
the Terry show and it's going to be on July,
39:16
you know, 18th and everyone's coming and we're
39:18
talking about how great I am. Like that could
39:20
be it. Who doesn't want that? Exactly. I was,
39:27
if you're open to it, if Carol and Lauren, you'd
39:29
also like to share your thoughts on maybe what
39:31
you would want for your passing. Yeah. Oh, I
39:35
know. Maybe it's not a flaming Viking boat, but
39:37
you know. Don't forget sharing the secrets. I
39:43
love that. I do love that, by the way. So it's
39:47
funny because my ideas of what I want have changed
39:49
a million times. The celebration itself ebbs
39:53
and flows based off of how I feel in the day.
39:55
But what I do know for sure about when I pass,
39:59
which is why awake has become such a big part
40:01
of my life, is that I want to be in nature in
40:06
a place where loved ones can visit me at their
40:09
will so currently what that would mean is I would
40:15
need my husband to keep me on a shelf until a
40:17
memorial forest is built that they could put
40:19
me in because I currently I know for for a fact
40:23
I want to be in a place that is designated a
40:26
cemetery so there's a million reasons why because
40:28
at least in Ontario you're protected but that
40:32
space is a protected cemetery for for at least
40:36
as long as every one of our loved ones will be
40:38
around. I can't say what's going to happen in
40:40
100 years, but it'll be protected for in perpetuity
40:43
based off of legislation. But my vision is to
40:48
be in a memorial forest. I don't want to be in
40:51
a more traditional cemetery space, which lots
40:55
of people love. I want my loved ones to be able
40:58
to go on a hike. to go for a run, to open up
41:01
a picnic blanket, eat all my favorite food, which
41:04
is a very Chinese cultural Qingming related thing
41:06
where we would go and set up my parents' gravestone
41:09
and eat all their favorite dim sum and drink
41:12
their double double, even though I can't stand
41:14
a double double. He liked it. So we'll make sure
41:16
we share one over there. And I want it to be
41:19
a place where they can live. I want, I want.
41:23
my resting place to be a place that's a part
41:25
of their life. Whether they choose to go on a
41:28
run weekly or they only choose to come on special
41:31
occasions, they can come read a book, whatever
41:34
it is that they're up to. I want my place to
41:36
be a place of life. And that's very, very important
41:40
to me. And that's what Awake is hopefully moving
41:42
towards. But that... component i know for sure
41:46
in terms of the dj that will be hosting my celebration
41:49
and the types of food that will be served it's
41:52
still to be determined but uh that i know for
41:56
sure i want to be in nature and i want to be
41:58
in a place where people feel like they can live
41:59
their life there yeah very cool yeah it's well
42:04
thought out Thank you. You're with Terry. I actually
42:09
will disappear from the earth. I will use awake
42:12
and go to a lovely wooded spot in probably our
42:15
national cemetery beside here. Beachwood? Beachwood.
42:22
But I don't want that. Even when I got married,
42:27
I had planned to elope. And of course, as we
42:30
respect family, my brother was like, you can't
42:32
do that to us. We have to be there. So, you know,
42:35
we had a micro wedding 30 years ago with 30 people.
42:39
So I don't look to be celebrated in that way
42:44
throughout my life. So certainly not when I've
42:46
passed. I do plan to gift things that are special
42:54
to me. Two special people in my life. Beautiful.
42:59
When I'm alive and I'll write it in a card. It
43:05
will be written or not be spoken. Because I'm
43:08
already crying thinking about it. But yeah. And
43:13
again, we're all different that way, right? Yeah.
43:15
Absolutely. Yeah. You know, McKayla and I have
43:18
always joked about. being trees. Well, yeah,
43:23
for me, it comes from a place of wanting to be
43:25
useful. So if I can, I would like to donate as
43:29
much of my body as possible to people that would
43:31
need those parts because I don't need them. So
43:34
if someone else can use it and I can help somebody,
43:36
then great. If not, then that's, you know, it
43:39
is what it is. But then ultimately, yeah, I've
43:41
always talked about similar to Lauren, but being
43:43
a tree or being part of nature and that. giving
43:46
back to the earth in a different way kind of
43:48
thing so that's kind of yeah that's exactly that
43:51
that's you know and it's funny that we we we
43:53
joked around like way before we met lauren and
43:55
then when when i first met lauren i was like
43:58
okay this is it this is actually this is actually
44:01
a thing because i didn't know it was right uh
44:04
but yeah and that is uh that's always been the
44:08
case the same for me like i've always wanted
44:10
the idea of bringing back life like just one
44:15
ends and the other one kind of you know begin
44:17
sort of thing i've always liked that cyclical
44:19
idea so being you know part of what brings uh
44:25
you know this life this tree this like you know
44:27
life back you know i like i like that concept
44:31
But it's okay if you want to be set on fire,
44:34
everyone. I know. I was like, I'm kind of rethinking
44:36
with the whole secrets and the Viking boat. My
44:39
mom's always talked about sticking her just on
44:41
an ice float and just shoving her off the edge
44:44
of the continent. But this is a really good,
44:49
like this is what the conversation should be.
44:52
You at least know what you want to do. There
44:53
are options for these things now. Well, I think
44:56
there's the opportunity too when we go back to
44:58
the whole. fear word where you know there's fear
45:03
on so many levels but based on if you change
45:08
how you approach it and you have the conversations
45:10
and there's a better understanding of how you
45:14
want to celebrate someone special to you what
45:20
you don't realize yet is you're actually going
45:23
to create new wonderful memories through that
45:27
process, which is also going to help you grieve
45:30
because we're allowed to grieve and we have phases
45:35
of grief. But that process is a part of the grieving
45:40
healing process with your community around you
45:43
as well. So there's going to be something memorable
45:49
and beautiful that comes from it too. I wanted
45:51
to ask, what would change? if we were more open
45:55
to speaking about this culturally? I feel like
45:57
that's a great question, first of all. I think
46:01
everything would change. I think that people
46:04
would live their lives more to the fullest if
46:06
these conversations were already happening. If
46:09
you were less concerned about how to dodge or
46:14
pin the conversations about death, then you would
46:19
be able to just live your life more to the fullest.
46:22
I think that that whole piece of being able to
46:25
talk about death means that you're more open
46:26
to talk about anything. Because truly, if you're
46:28
willing to talk about this, you're open to talk
46:30
about every different type of topic with the
46:33
people that are in your lives. We're at an interesting
46:37
point in at least the history that we're all
46:40
aware of where people are going to therapy more.
46:44
People are being more open about their emotions
46:46
and they'll joke around about how millennials
46:49
and... Gen Z are too emotional, but it's a good
46:53
thing. It's really amazing to listen to people,
46:57
get more open about things that are important
47:01
to them. And I think that if we're all going
47:03
to be talking about death more, then we can talk
47:06
about other uncomfortable topics more too. It
47:10
would be amazing that if at some point in my
47:15
kid's future, They talk about this in school.
47:19
And I know we've had this conversation very openly
47:22
a year or two ago now where sometimes the first
47:28
time we experience death is usually either with
47:31
a pet or potentially some through somebody that
47:35
we know at school, whether that's, you know,
47:36
the custodian or if that's. a parent of another
47:41
person that we go to school with or any of those
47:43
things. And we just don't talk about it. We're
47:45
silent. You know, Judy's just not going to be
47:47
at school for a couple of weeks and she comes
47:49
back and then we don't deal with it. But if we
47:52
can have those conversations, have our children
47:55
be read those storybooks about death and spirituality
47:57
and all of those different things, it's just
47:59
going to get better for all of us. Like and say
48:02
from experience, like when my daughter passed.
48:07
They threw her a birthday party, the whole school.
48:10
They did a presentation of all the things that
48:12
they loved about her, all of her favorite things.
48:16
And then we went outside, we sang happy birthday
48:18
and we blew bubbles. And they do a billboard
48:23
outside the library every few months. And be
48:28
kind like Claire is one thing. And they, you
48:32
know, the children showed up to her. um visitation
48:37
like it it was the way that the school handled
48:42
it was so beautiful they had you know her her
48:46
name everywhere it was it wasn't a sad a sad
48:50
thing it was like this is what happens in life
48:53
and you know she she had a great life you guys
48:57
helped her have the best days and um those kids
49:03
will have this new empathy That they've never
49:07
experienced before. And so I know that when this
49:09
happens for Joseph, that they will do the same.
49:13
These kids have been growing up together since
49:15
SK, right? And so, you know, they know that they're
49:19
going to lose them, but it's something that they're
49:21
learning at a young age. And I really loved how
49:27
the school embraced it instead of like, let's
49:29
not talk about that again. Like, that's too sad.
49:31
There was like, you know, the whole school was
49:34
brought together. to talk about it oh without
49:38
question there's there's children but even the
49:42
workplace doesn't know how to handle it when
49:44
a colleague gets five days to or you get five
49:49
days to go mourn your spouse or a loved one and
49:54
you go back to work and people around you don't
49:57
know how to deal with you right So again, like
50:02
if we understand as children, then that's normalized
50:05
as we grow up, right? But we have that gap in
50:10
the workplace right now too. People don't know
50:13
how to treat and talk to somebody that's lost
50:16
someone very close or you've lost a colleague.
50:19
And people don't know how to talk about that.
50:22
They don't know how to address that. Well, ironically,
50:25
talking about and dealing with it actually creates
50:27
new beginnings, doesn't it? Yes. It 100 % does.
50:32
If you are open to discussing death or the things
50:35
that you do to celebrate those who are no longer
50:38
there, like in all honesty behind me, it's why
50:40
I chose this location in my house. So I very
50:42
eloquently refer to this as the dead people hutch
50:45
because that's, again, this is something that
50:49
I have no problem talking about. So just the
50:52
dead people hutch, it's very specific. But all
50:54
of our family, pets included, that have passed.
50:59
This is where we commemorate them. And it's not
51:01
just a wall with photos. My kids are, they get
51:04
it now that they're three and six, that mommy
51:07
takes out the little Chinese cups in a candle
51:10
when there's something that we're celebrating
51:11
because they're celebrating it with us. So like
51:13
there's just different ways that we live with
51:16
death in our household. That's made it really
51:19
easy for our kids to deal with death. And when
51:23
people that are – and I've had plenty of friends
51:26
come to this house and be completely creeped
51:28
out by this entire thing the first few times
51:31
that they're here. And then afterwards, they're
51:32
like, you're not going to light a candle for
51:34
them? Isn't it not a celebration that we're here
51:36
for dinner? And then it just becomes like a joke.
51:38
Like, oh, what, our presence in your house isn't
51:41
good enough for you to light a candle for your
51:42
popo and your gong gong, right? And that's just
51:45
because I've been open about it. When my husband
51:49
came for the first time like 10 years ago to
51:51
visit my grandparents at the cemetery for Ching
51:56
Ming, which is Tomb Sweeping Day for Chinese
51:58
people. And we went there. It was fun. Like we
52:02
had picnic blankets and we ate a bunch of food.
52:04
And he's like, what the hell is this? He's like,
52:07
I thought like we'd all be sitting here crying
52:09
and it would be like the worst thing ever. He's
52:11
like, this is wicked. Because when I die, I want
52:14
you to come eat dominoes and drink beer at my
52:17
tombstone. His has evolved. He also wants to
52:20
be in nature now. He doesn't really have much
52:21
of a choice living with me. But he wouldn't have
52:24
known that unless he was with me. So I'm hoping,
52:29
and I know this for a fact, in every family group,
52:32
in every friend group, in every workplace. Everywhere
52:35
you go, there's someone who is like the five
52:38
of us who is totally open and willing to talk
52:41
about death in a way that doesn't scare them.
52:42
And all it takes is that one person to get another
52:46
one of those people in their vicinity to at least
52:49
think about it or become less freaked out by
52:53
the notion of it so that when they come to work
52:55
the next day, they can make a joke about your
52:57
dead people, Hutch. I think that's the point
52:59
of this project that we're embarking on, right,
53:02
is to normalize. talking about it, to normalize
53:05
this idea so that it spreads, so that people
53:09
are willing to talk about it in whatever small
53:12
way, jumping in slowly but surely and just becoming,
53:16
have it be more comfortable, right? Because it's
53:20
happening, whether you like it or not. 100%.
53:23
We think of death as a taboo, but is it really
53:28
a taboo? And that... Again, the one thing is
53:34
certain is that we're all going to experience
53:37
it. So we're not alone. We really aren't alone.
53:42
As lonely as that might feel, we're all in it
53:46
together. So there's a wealth of resources available
53:52
and options available that we don't know about.
53:56
You'll be surprised at what's available and how
53:58
people will come together. And we all have our
54:00
stories. Every single person has their story.
54:05
So ask and there's a wealth of resources out
54:10
there to help. Already I feel like I've learned
54:17
so much about approaching the topic of death
54:21
and grief. When before I felt like it was something
54:23
I couldn't talk about, it made me anxious. It
54:26
made me feel uncomfortable. But being able to
54:28
have conversations and go through these episodes
54:31
that you're about to listen to, it's made me
54:33
feel a lot more comfortable. I feel like I've
54:36
gained more knowledge and I've even learned how
54:38
to work within the space to be able to speak
54:40
to people who are experiencing deep grief. These
54:43
conversations are so important. Even just being
54:47
part of them has really helped me as a person.
54:49
I am eternally grateful to Terry and Lauren and
54:52
Carol for including us in this project, and we
54:55
can't wait to share the rest of it with you.
54:57
Thank you for listening to the entire episode.
54:59
All the links and info you heard in this conversation
55:02
will be featured in the show notes on our website.
55:04
If you'd like to know more about anything we
55:06
mentioned in this episode, make sure to check
55:08
villagermagazine .ca slash podcast. Thanks again,
55:25
and I'll see you next time.