Latest / Bookies' Favourite / Small Boat by Vincent Delecroix, translated by Helen Stevenson | Review | International Booker Prize 2025

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Small Boat by Vincent Delecroix, translated by Helen Stevenson | Review | International Booker Prize 2025 · Bookies' Favourite

0:10
Hi everyone and welcome back to bookies favorite.
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This week we have been reading Small Boat by Vincent Dellacoit
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translated by Helen Stevenson. Vincent is a French writer from
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Paris which I am currently in. This is his first book to be
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translated into English and he has written quite a substantial
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number of books. We're joined by the other book,
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his favourites. I'm going to go around if you
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guys want to say what you liked or like how you felt about the
0:37
book can also introduce yourselves.
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So I'll start with you, Lucy. Hi, I'm Lucy and I really
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enjoyed this book. I'm totally prepared now for
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everyone to hate it, but I thought it was I thought it was
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really excellent and very I do. It's a tough one to kind of have
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words for because it's such a extremely horrible situation.
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And like a like there's something very emotional about
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what what happens to these people and it's told in quite a
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dispassionate way. But I like the the real study
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into the character of the operator and why she's done what
1:14
she's done. And yeah, I thought it was an
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excellent book. And Hannah, what were your
1:19
thoughts? Well, Lucy, I'm surprised to
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tell you that I absolutely love this book from the cover to the
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right. And it like completely hit so
1:29
hard. Like the second chapter I know
1:31
that we're going to talk about, but like that surprised me and
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it made me like really think because having studies like
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politics and law and coming from like the legal side where you
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kind of are dehumanized in that way of like just following the
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legal steps And that to like someone who's been like always
1:51
studied by like refugees and migrants and asylum seekers and
1:56
you know, all the passion from that side of things.
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So I feel like this book got exactly those two things that
2:02
you battle with all the time. What did you think, Aaron?
2:05
Yeah, I do have to say that I did enjoy this book.
2:10
I do have to admit this is me coming from the perspective of
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not being a massive book reader and trying to still get into the
2:21
rhythm of reading. I started this book yesterday
2:26
and I did not get as far in as I wanted to.
2:32
So just before we started recording this morning I woke up
2:36
early and I speed read through as much of it as I could.
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Which I do think that this book lends itself to speed reading,
2:44
and I'm not saying it's the best way to read this book, but
2:50
there's other books that we have read that I don't think you
2:53
could speed read. So yes, I did finish this book
2:56
just in the nick of time. And yeah, I actually I did
3:02
really enjoy this one. Yeah, you finally finished one
3:05
this week. Yay.
3:07
Excuse me, I have finished three out of the five books so far.
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Sorry, I'll. Get that back.
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Just over half. We love it.
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The other two will be completed in time for our final episodes
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before the the winners announced next week, and so don't worry
3:26
that they will all be red. It's a small boat tells a, tells
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a story, quite a heartbreaking story of there's a dingy were in
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November 2021, umm, in favourable dengue carrying
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migrants from France to United Kingdom capsized in the ER
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channel and 27 people died. And this book is sort of, uh,
3:50
was inspired by this event and follows, uh, uh, Navy Coast
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Guard, uh, emergency operator who received this phone call
3:57
from these migrants who are in this boat, uh, and communicates
4:02
with them, telling them that help is on the web, but they are
4:05
being pushed into the, into English waters and that it's the
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English's problem to, to try and, uh, save them.
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Uh, however, uh, the book follows, uh, an interview
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between a police investigator and this operator, uh, to see if
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there's been any negligence, uh, on the part of the operator in
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terms of all these migrants dying.
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Uh, and the book has split into three parts.
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The first follows this sort of, uh, back and forth between the
4:34
investigator and the operator and we get to see like these
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moral conundrums raised and these questions about, uh, who's
4:42
to blame and, uh, like if this is, uh, down to a moral issue or
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if it's down to like an operational issue.
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Uh, and yeah, we'll get into that in a bit.
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The second part is, uh, shockingly, I didn't expect this
4:56
from the point of view of the migrants, or at least an
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imagined point of view of the migrants.
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I don't know if it's like genuinely from them or if it's
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her imagining what they were experiencing, umm, aboard the
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ship. And it's pretty like tough
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reading because you kind of see their, their desperation and the
5:16
length of time and they had to endure in the water while other
5:19
people were pulled away or drowned.
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And then the final, uh, part kind of explores, goes, goes
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back to the operator, umm, post interview and dives more into
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her background And uh, she kind of like somewhere not
5:38
summarizes, but she like wraps up her thoughts and the
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situation, umm, and the morality.
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Of it. So this week we have, uh, some
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thoughts from What's Stacey. Read Next on Instagram.
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Hello, it's Stacey from What's Stacey read next.
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I've been working my way through some of the novels on the
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International Booker Prize shortlist and recently I read
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Small Boat, this week's book club read.
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You going into this one that I would find it really
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uncomfortable. We hear about small boats in the
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migrant crisis, in our political discourse and in the media all
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the time, but I knew this was going to be a very personal and
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confronting account of an event that really happened.
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It was such a bold decision to tell the majority of this story
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from the perspective of the French Coast Guard officer who
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took the calls from the sinking boat.
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The fact that she's a woman and a mother, I think will really
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challenge the perceptions of readers when they're looking at
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her thoughts, which can be quite challenging at times.
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The middle section of the novel tells the story of the small
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boat sinking. It is so distressing because as
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a reader, you know what the inevitable outcome is going to
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be, and it's just absolutely devastating.
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So it's very hard to say that I enjoyed reading Small Boat, but
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I feel that it was such an important read that I'm really
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glad I did pick it up and I hope you have a good discussion about
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it on your podcast today. Nice, nice and succinct.
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We like it. Yeah.
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I love the accent as well. Yeah, the accent's great.
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I think Stacey kind of kneels a lot, probably a lot of our
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opinions. Yeah, on it.
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I do agree with her in that the, it's quite a harrowing topic,
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but like, I'm very feel very satisfied having read it and
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kind of explored, umm, those ideas.
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I mean, I think part of The thing is you, you would hear so
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of so many boats going down, uh, in, in waters with migrants and
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so many dying, but because, uh, in a way we're kind of
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disconnected from that because you hear so many stories about
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it. Umm, it's like any war story
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too. Like you, you you stop thinking
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about the numbers and the people involved.
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And it's always good to kind of get shaken awake by these sorts
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of books to make you be like, no, the people involved.
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And I think that's why the second part hits so hard.
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And I think it was like my favorite part.
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And I know we're supposed to be talking about Part 1, but I
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think that's kind of that part was what made me enjoy this book
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the most. Like this is what made it stand
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out I think than than what I was expecting.
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Yeah, I really love that. Almost like dehumanization or
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like, I don't know, that dissociation she has of like,
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this is my role, this is my job. Like I can't let my feelings get
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in it. And like, I know so many
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different roles. I mean like even from like
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doctors and paramedics and all like those kind of roles.
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Like you can't get your feelings into the job because then you
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you can't really see what you need to do.
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You're like the emotions are too much in it.
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So I get that part. But then there's really one
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particular part, like, so I was reading the first bit and I was
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like, yeah, like I see parts of it where she's coming from of
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like, this is my job, this is my role, blah, blah, blah.
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But then when it comes to lines, like, what was it like, oh, you
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said they're dead because they put themselves in mortal danger.
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And they put themselves in mortal danger because instead of
9:16
sitting in their rooms, they left.
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And it wasn't me that asked them to leave.
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And that really hit because I really just want to say to
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people who really hate, like, migrants and refugees and asylum
9:27
seekers, like, do you think if people had any other choice,
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they wouldn't leave? Like, and it's not that they
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just want to get up and leave and, like, steal from your
9:35
country. You know, that it's everything
9:38
in the world and politics. And that is, like, so
9:41
influential in it. And I just hate this idea of
9:44
telling people, well, it's their fault.
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They deserve to die because they laugh.
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Like. I was so angry.
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But like, I've talked to so many people who think that viewpoint
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and I'm like reads books. Just reads books.
9:56
I think that's so true of, like, it's one of those books that
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you're just like, I, I want everyone to read this.
10:02
Like, yeah, I don't like you could recommend it to everyone.
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I made the mistake when I was reading it the first time of
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looking up the most recent person who died crossing the
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channel. And.
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I, I was doing something at the time, so it wasn't reading
10:18
anything. So I was like, I'll put like a
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YouTube video on of like the BBC News report from the last one.
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And I made the mistake that I will probably never make again
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where I read the comments of he must have been when he was
10:32
writing that book. He must have been looking at
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those comments because they are, they are just like, why have
10:37
they done this? They why are they, it's not our
10:39
fault. Like they should have left.
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It was, it was a horrible, horrible thing to read.
10:44
So I think he's definitely hitting on something that's very
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like. Yeah.
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People feel this way. I feel like this book is very
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relatable and shows the humanity or the inhumanity in a lot of
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people and our conflicting thoughts, especially in Part 1
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and and what you just said, Lucy reflects a certain aspect.
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I can't remember the specific part and it might have been in
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Part 3, but the narrator mentions that we just have the
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news on in the background while we're making dinner and all of
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these kind of harrowing stories become background noise and
11:35
background entertainment for us. And just what you were saying
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that that you were doing something.
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So you put on a YouTube video from BBC, it just it, it
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reflected exactly what happens in that and it is true.
11:51
Shame, Lucy, Shame. Yeah, yeah.
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To be fair, I know because when I was like studying politics and
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stuff like that, we were talking about high, you know, the ads
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from like Oxfam and Troker and stuff.
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Like, you've seen them on the TV so many times that you just
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become, I'm so used to them that you don't even think anymore
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about these people in their situations.
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You're just like, oh, there's the odd again.
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So I, I thought about that when reading, you know, from the her
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perspective of like, this is my job.
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I see it every day, you know? Yeah.
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Yeah, I do think that the the dehuman, like I know when you
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said the dehumanization like I think that hits hard.
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And I think the book, what the book does really well is showing
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from the point of view of this, it's like operator, like she is
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pretty much a stand in for everyone to in the situation.
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It's so hard to care about all of these people.
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Like not even I'm not just talking about the migrant
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crisis. I'm talking about the war in
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Ukraine. I'm talking about Israel and
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Palestine, all of these things. You get bombarded with this
12:52
information, all these like news stories at the beginning.
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Everyone is full of this fervor and like energy to like say like
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this is not good enough. But everyone's still living
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their their lives. And there is like this guilt in
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a way connected to this where you feel like I want to, I want
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to care as much I want to like, you know, throw everything into
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it. But but you get burned out and
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that's also nowhere to live. Like we still have our lives
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happening. It's really tricky.
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And I think I like the moral complexity of like the.
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Character and. All the things she raises.
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How do we deal with these extreme global events?
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That horror is like terrifying. And I kind of thought that what
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he was trying to do with three of the characters, specifically
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the operator and Julian and Eric, who is her former partly
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operators from former partner. And Julian is a man who works
13:44
with the operator. And I felt like each of them
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kind of represent how people deal with the trauma of like
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global horrific event. So Eric, who is the the
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operator's former partner, he's like really anti immigration.
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He's very much nobody told them to cross the channel.
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No one did all you know, he has all these horrific views.
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And she feels like when everything does go wrong and,
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and she's implicated in the migrant's death, he's he's
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almost happy because he doesn't, he doesn't like these migrants
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and he has these extremely horrible views.
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And that's, it's kind of a way of, you know, without trying to
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because he's a horrible character and you don't really
14:29
particularly like him and you don't really like his views.
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But it's like, is that a way of dealing with the global guilt is
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like this, this is their problem.
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This is absolutely their fault. And then I felt like the main
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characters kind of like, I don't have an opinion.
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I do, I'm out of this. And it's so clear throughout the
14:47
text that she does have an opinion.
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That's her way of dealing with this.
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And then Julian, who's kind of like quite intellectual and he
14:53
loves his Pascal and he loves all his books and his quotes and
14:57
stuff. I think she uses the term noble
15:01
despair where he's like kind of that intellectual thing where
15:04
it's like you recognize all these things are happening, but
15:06
you're like, no, you kind of are able to intellectualize it and
15:10
then also in a way deal with that guilt that everybody has.
15:14
It's like knowledge versus emotion, really.
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And I think, you know, like, like, honey, you're saying like
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in the legal terms, you know, she kind of puts up these walls
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to like protect herself and be like, well, I'm just doing my
15:25
job and these like, I had to make a decision.
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But like, I think I think you've had it home too, Lucy.
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And that like that is her way of, of taking that guilt off.
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Like, and and we all do it in different ways.
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Like it's so hard to care all the time.
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And, and, and like, I leave it like maybe that's all these
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people you saw in these YouTube comments are not all of them
15:45
probably hold that view. A lot of them are probably just
15:48
feel this guilt or this like moral pressure.
15:51
So they they choose to like, you know, unleash it in these like
15:55
negative ways. Yeah, because I was kind of
15:57
thinking I'm no like I'm no better than them because like,
16:00
what am I doing? What I'm doing nothing to help.
16:02
Neither are they. They're just writing a comment
16:04
somewhere and it's like a little.
16:05
Arana and Tom, and they thought that they were doing something
16:08
to help. Yeah.
16:10
Like. Back to perfection about like
16:12
Anna and Tom and they're getting involved and they're organizing
16:15
everything and they're helping and all of a sudden it's like
16:18
that burnout. We're like they're not needed
16:20
anymore. And they feel deflated and
16:21
they're like, yeah, are we actually making an impact here?
16:24
Yeah, like when column was sent at the start, like everyone has
16:27
this like uptake compassion, you know, with everything even think
16:31
about back to like the crisis in Ukraine, like everything that
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happened, you know, like even if something that's like
16:37
Eurovision, like the UK being like, well, host Eurovision, you
16:40
know, like everyone got in this a big like camaraderie of like,
16:44
yes, we'll all help I. And then all of a sudden it just
16:48
like, oh, nothing's being like solved.
16:50
Like we're just going to slowly kind of like like go away from
16:54
that, like not really help as much anymore.
16:56
Like I feel like it's all all related back to perfection.
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I think that this book kind of gets the point across that the
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status quo or the status quo, we are fine with it as it is.
17:14
And whenever something massive happens or a big change happens,
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that's when we care. But whenever it becomes the norm
17:24
and we are used to that, it becomes background noise.
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And it's not until something massive happens or changes again
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that we start to to care because we just become so accustomed to
17:38
it and used to it. And that I think that's just the
17:42
history of mankind and why people have been fine with
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racism and sexism and every other ISM out there.
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People just become used to it and it's hard to feel motivated.
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And there are people out there who are motivated, but it is
18:01
definitely tough to motivate yourself for every single yeah,
18:06
that thing that you see. Yeah, that crisis of like, I
18:12
can't like that. Oh, I can't solve everything.
18:14
So why are you even bother? Like, because when when reading
18:17
the book, thinking about negligence, there's always this
18:20
element of Judy of care. And that's what they had done.
18:23
Those of you had a Judy to care of, like, you know, to help
18:26
these people. And it's the part where she's
18:29
using this excuse, but she can't see it.
18:31
Like, oh, they were going to be in English waters or they're in
18:34
English waters. It's England's problem.
18:36
Like, it's not mine anymore. And it's like in my head, she is
18:40
negligence. You know, I'm not saying like
18:43
this is be my legal perspective, but in my head she's negligent.
18:47
Like she's not helping these people.
18:50
When there was the other, there was the boat that was nearby.
18:53
And I know that she's saying, oh, I should have assessed it,
18:56
the situation. And there's forty other boats
18:59
that are in the water that night and like you have to figure out
19:01
which one to help most. But I just.
19:05
But also it is pointed out that were any other boats needing
19:10
help, they they had a a rescue boat that as far as they can
19:16
tell from the records wasn't helping anyone.
19:19
And it was free to to be sent to these people.
19:22
She just didn't send them. Yeah.
19:24
And then I also thought about the, like, political aspect,
19:27
like, I don't know how much everyone thought those, but the
19:30
whole thing between France and England.
19:31
And it's like this idea of like, oh, once it's in someone's
19:35
territory, you know, they have to deal with it.
19:37
So is it the idea that like she's been told, oh, like try
19:41
not deal with things as much until they're in other people's
19:44
waters or like even if they're going to be in the water,
19:47
English water, like a little bit like, oh, that's their problem.
19:49
I look, we like we have to conserve our resources.
19:52
You know, I just kept thinking about from like policy point of
19:55
view as well, you know, like maybe that's why I'm trying to
19:59
justify sometimes of like her actions.
20:02
Well each throughout the entire Part 1 she keeps trying to shift
20:09
the blame off onto someone or something else she blames them
20:14
for for getting into the dinghy in the 1st place.
20:18
She blames England for the migrants basically being in
20:24
English waters or on their way to English waters.
20:27
She blames the other migrants who are on dinghies and saying I
20:35
can't, I can't prioritize someone over someone else, so
20:40
why? Why would I prioritize them?
20:43
She blames the migrant crisis to begin with, and she blames the
20:50
news and how the news has presented the entire story.
20:54
There's constant like blame and trying to find someone else to
20:58
blame. I think, and I think everybody
21:00
when they start reading this wants to be charitable to her
21:02
because you do think, Oh my goodness, imagine if you messed
21:06
up slightly and work and 27 people died.
21:08
Like that would be like words can't describe how horrific that
21:13
is. I think as you read it, you you
21:16
kind of realize, I think, well, I found that it was it was
21:19
totally her fault. She had no excuse and she knows
21:23
she's got no excuse. And that's why she's kind of
21:25
grasping for straws and and like why she's so she is just, she's
21:31
blaming God. She's blaming everyone during
21:34
the chain of command from God to her for what's happened.
21:38
And it's that kind of thing of like, OK, this is a collective
21:41
and this is like a societal problem.
21:45
But actually at the crux of it, it was her action.
21:49
And it's not even an it's her action because she's like, it
21:54
becomes clear she was, there was a boat that sees the migrants
21:58
and they ask her if they can rescue the migrants and she says
22:02
no because they're going to be rescued by someone else.
22:04
And they're not rescued. They're left for hours after
22:06
that. So it's kind of like she, it's
22:09
not really like she's messed up slightly.
22:12
It's like she's intentionally done that.
22:13
There's a part of the book where she talks about she's so
22:16
desensitized to these people that she believes it's the same
22:19
person calling her night after night.
22:22
So she doesn't actually start seeing them as these are
22:23
completely separate people from the people last night.
22:26
And she's like, this person is so stupid.
22:29
They've gone into the water again, and it's like she's
22:32
unable to think of them as individual beings.
22:35
So she's just annoyed at them. She's annoyed like a child has
22:38
gotten something stupid again. She's going to teach them a
22:40
lesson. I almost got that feeling.
22:42
Yeah. How she feels in her inside.
22:45
And then I imagine having had that state of mind for, say,
22:49
however many hours that she was involved in this, and then later
22:53
on being like, what have I done? I think there is a part of it
22:57
where she's just like, oh God, what have I done?
23:00
And that like that shining through of like she has no
23:03
excuse and she knows she's no excuse.
23:05
I think it's important to spell out for those who haven't read
23:08
the book that it's not just the fact that she feels to do
23:14
something at work. It's the fact that, yes, these
23:17
27 was 27 migrants died. But there was recordings of all
23:26
of the calls, including when she would place herself on mute to
23:31
speak to the others in the control room or to speak to
23:35
herself. And she was recorded saying, I
23:39
didn't make you do this, basically scolding these
23:43
migrants for going out and and trying to travel.
23:47
So that's where the level of complexity comes in, where it's
23:51
not just that she made a mistake and she messed up.
23:54
It's the fact that there seems to have been some intent behind
23:58
it, or at least that she is not thinking charitably about these
24:07
migraines and she is sick of of having to to do this over and
24:12
over again. Yeah, But I think it's
24:13
interesting because in the I mean, she brings up like she
24:17
rash, tries to rationalize it in a way of like a scoreboard.
24:20
She's like, how many people have I see it, do you know, like she
24:22
brings us up. And I think like, that's a very
24:24
valid point because, yeah, it's like she has probably saved
24:27
conscious lives. But the ones that matter, like
24:30
the ones that are hitting her the most are the ones that have
24:32
been lost because of course that's going to hit you harder.
24:34
But but she like, she's like angry in a way that they're
24:38
ignoring all these other times she is successfully like save
24:41
people's lives. And it's this one time where
24:43
this happened. And I think to me that that
24:45
sounds like her breaking point. It's like she just couldn't care
24:48
anymore. Like she has cared so much and
24:51
that it's just reached a point of like, I, I can't.
24:54
It's quite interesting, like now that we're talking about it, it
24:57
really makes me think my like legal head on.
25:00
And so sometimes they're like, it's called like regulatory work
25:04
and unemployment. And it's more like professions
25:07
say, like nurses. And it's not that you've
25:10
committed the ACT itself of like near like harm and someone.
25:14
It's the dishonesty element. That's the thing that gets
25:17
people like say, like struck off or whatever.
25:19
So you're being dishonest about what you did.
25:21
And I think that really hits home and what she's doing.
25:24
She's been dishonest about the reasons that she like sent the
25:27
other boat away or, you know, didn't, you know, get the other,
25:31
the French boat to come instead of waiting just for the English
25:34
boat. And then at the end, like at the
25:36
end of the chapter, she says and like, what should I have done?
25:41
Should I have like dived into the water myself and or like
25:44
tried to reinflate their dinghy for them?
25:46
You know, she's trying to pass that blame again of like, oh,
25:50
what? Well, should I have personally
25:52
done all these things? And like, how many people have
25:54
you spoken to like, like who have this user like, oh, what do
25:57
you want me to do? Like, like help them get across
26:00
the water? Like it's just, oh, it hits so
26:03
many different levels. And especially when you think
26:06
about when she's being like interviewed in the first part,
26:09
like we talked about at the beginning, kind of, oh, this
26:13
woman looks like me or, you know, those like has the same
26:16
like Lucy, etcetera. Like the beauty Mark.
26:18
It's not like moral grind you see coming out of like how she
26:22
should be acting, you know? Yeah, but.
26:25
I think it's how she views herself.
26:27
Like she's like, I am a good person, like I've saved these
26:29
people's. Like she's like rationalizing
26:31
this with herself. Like I, I like it's her inner
26:34
monologue, if we want to read it that way of like a conscience.
26:37
It's like you've done these things and she's like, no, but
26:39
I've done these like, like we all have that do, you know, And
26:42
not even in small things in life, it's not even on these big
26:45
grand scales. It's like small things where you
26:47
debate with yourself about like, did I do wrong or did I do
26:51
right? And you're trying to convince
26:52
yourself of of your your goodness.
26:55
I think the book is also planning on gender as well, you
26:57
know, this idea of being a woman and you're supposed to be like
27:00
more compassionate, more feelings, you know, more empathy
27:04
in that kind of way. And there was like traditional
27:06
sense and the way that she isn't coming across and that like
27:09
initial interview, you know, completely separate to that.
27:13
I feel like it's playing on that all the time until like you get
27:16
back to the third chapter and she is like expressing that kind
27:21
of empathy, but obviously maybe not in the right way and telling
27:23
her six year old about it. But I really love, I think was
27:29
it what Stacey reads had mentioned it at the start.
27:32
Like, I do love that play on that gender kind of role of what
27:35
a woman should be. Well, it, it definitely is
27:39
addressed directly by the narrator and what she mentions
27:45
that why am I as a woman expected to have greater
27:53
maternal thoughts and, and humanity for these people?
27:57
And she basically rejects that and she pushes it off herself
28:02
where she's like, don't look to me to do this.
28:05
Like why? Why am I being held to this
28:07
standard and the others around me aren't being held to this
28:10
standard. And I think that there is maybe
28:12
some good discussion there. And I think this book does make
28:17
you think like, oh, are we blaming?
28:21
Like, yes, it is easy to blame her because the buck stopped
28:24
with her. She was the last person who
28:26
could have helped them. But she does point out these
28:29
people smugglers, they these human traffickers who initiated
28:34
the entire thing. Well, at least at that point
28:37
where everyone got on the boat, like surely they have to be held
28:41
responsible and then surely the English and the French
28:44
governments have to be held responsible and then surely the
28:48
countries where these people came from, they have to be held
28:50
responsible. So I think there is a bit of
28:54
blame shifting, but it also is a reality of there are so many
29:00
people responsible here. And yes, she was maybe the last
29:03
point of contact in the last port of call, but should
29:09
everything rest on her shoulders?
29:10
Or at least, maybe she felt like everything was resting on her
29:13
shoulders. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a big
29:15
theme and it is individualism versus like collectivism and the
29:19
idea that like she is an individual in this great machine
29:22
of like protecting these migrants.
29:24
The migrants themselves are collective.
29:26
And it's only when we get to the second part that we get these
29:28
individual stories and these lives.
29:30
And it's easy to look at a group of people, any refugee or any
29:34
migrant or whatever and, and see them as just like 1,
29:37
homogeneous, like mass, uh, they're all the same.
29:40
Umm. And I think like she is kind of
29:43
trying to head home that an individual like her can't do
29:46
anything, even though she's been held responsible for a
29:49
collective's like, as a for an individual's like faults.
29:52
You know, she is like, it's a collective that should be
29:54
changing things. I am just one person.
29:57
And and I think that's why the second part works so well
29:59
because we do see the individuals in this boat.
30:01
The whole thing in writing is if you're writing a big theme, like
30:06
a big story, so say, say the bigger story, the smaller you
30:09
write, you have to focus on smaller things to make it hit
30:12
home more. Rather than writing about like a
30:14
war, you write about a single person who's affected by this
30:17
war. And like, I think that's what
30:18
she's like, you know, the individual and collectivism
30:20
thing. It's kind of like the one the me
30:22
and if not the me and theme throughout this book.
30:25
So there's a quote that Julian who's, he's the other operator
30:29
and he's kind of this intellectual kind of character
30:31
and he's always reading and he's always quoting Pascal, obviously
30:34
because they're French, so they have to.
30:36
And they have this like most of life's problems would be solved
30:40
if people didn't have to like leave their houses and get out
30:42
of bed. And I was kind of like, and I
30:45
want to know where this quote comes from because that seems
30:47
like, I mean, it's a good quote, but I bet you like most
30:50
philosophers, this is just one tiny bit of a bigger, wider
30:53
quote. So I find the full quote that
30:56
that's actually from. And now it was translated from
30:59
French. I'm not 100% sure if like this
31:01
was accurate website I got it from.
31:04
Basically, it's kind of about how, like, wars are started
31:07
because there's like bored kings and that kind of thing, People
31:09
in court who are just like, you know, dissatisfied.
31:13
I've often said that the sole cause of man's unhappiness is
31:17
that he does not know how to stay quietly in his room.
31:20
A man wealthy enough for man's needs would never leave home or
31:24
go to sea or besiege some fortress if he knew how to stay
31:28
at home and enjoy it. So basically, like the whole
31:31
quote is saying, if you're wealthy, you should not be going
31:35
out and getting off. But they've taken that quote to
31:38
justify distancing themselves from these people people because
31:43
then they can push it on to them as they weren't happy in their
31:46
homes. They were having a great life,
31:48
but they weren't happy because they wanted, I think she she
31:50
goes into detail about like, oh, they want their free health
31:53
care. They want their all these other
31:54
things. And it's like, no, these people
31:56
aren't like you would not do that.
31:58
You would not get an addictive with 30 other people, like going
32:02
in the middle of the night somewhere if you were not
32:05
desperate. Like there's no way.
32:06
And they're spent like they're clawing together that money
32:09
like, and it kind of is like we, we do take like little bits of
32:13
things. And this is that justification
32:15
for like how, how guilty everybody feels about all these
32:19
global crises. It's kind of like crises, sorry.
32:23
But it is kind of like we have to have an excuse.
32:25
We have to have something to push the blame away from us.
32:29
At every level. Everybody is pushing the blame
32:32
away from everything. You know, it's quite, it's quite
32:35
sad, I find. Yeah.
32:37
And it's usually the most wealthiest, like in quotations,
32:40
wealthiest, the people you're able to get all that money
32:42
together to make that such sacrifice to get on a boat and
32:47
risk their life in this idea of trying to make something better,
32:51
you know? Yeah.
32:52
And I just don't get how people don't see that like.
32:55
I don't know. I mean, I think this book is
32:58
really good at making you question your own like, approach
33:01
to these sorts of issues. And it made me realize, like, my
33:04
way of dealing with this stuff, I think is just to not, is not
33:09
to even read the stories, not to like, do you know, do any of
33:12
that? Like, I need to be separated
33:14
from it. Like, I have to live my life.
33:16
And that's so selfish. But at the same time, that's how
33:18
I, yeah, it's how I survive. It's how I keep going.
33:22
And like, while it's all there is this niggling, I guess guilt
33:24
in the back of my head that these things are happening and
33:26
I'm living this life that I love and have all these people and I
33:29
feel safe and secure. But to me, I need to separate
33:32
myself and still be informed enough to an extent without
33:36
having to read about it constantly and like be involved.
33:40
I feel like I'm a bit, I felt like Julian was a bit of a hip.
33:43
Like not like, not that I, I don't think I over
33:46
intellectualize these issues, but I kind of do have that
33:49
distance. Like you're saying, Colin, it's
33:51
like I'm, I'm so cynical about things.
33:55
Like, see, when I see people put like loads of Instagram posts up
33:57
about like issues and stuff, I'm just like, oh really?
34:00
Do you actually care? Like I am so cynical and it's
34:02
really awful. And I, and I kind of was like
34:04
when we were, when I was reading this book, I was like, and we're
34:06
going to be talking about it. I was like, I really am not
34:09
qualified to talk about this because you know, I, I know
34:15
better like, like I've, it's, it's a really horrible.
34:19
I think there is that like Global collective.
34:22
Like. Guilt, complete powerlessness as
34:26
well. It's like that's another thing
34:27
that and it's, it's another one of our excuses as a as humans,
34:31
but. It is.
34:32
You feel so individual and you feel so like, I can't, I can't
34:37
do anything. And then you're like, and these
34:38
people who are doing something like someone's putting up an
34:40
Instagram post. What's that done?
34:42
You know, and it's all like. But it makes people feel like
34:46
they're doing something, I guess.
34:47
Like, it makes me even think like, I write like, I quite, I
34:50
like, I write in my own writing. I write like, to try and
34:53
understand the world. And I will write about equality
34:56
a lot and like those sorts of topics.
34:58
But even though I'm writing about that, that's me being
35:00
like, yeah, this is what I believe in.
35:02
And I don't stand for the inequality of people or racism
35:06
or anything like that. But that's as far as that's
35:08
going. Do you know that that's not like
35:11
affecting things. I mean, my, in my head, I'm
35:13
like, oh, someone could read this later down the line if
35:15
they, my stories get published and then that changes how
35:18
someone thinks. But that's still like, it's,
35:21
it's not enough, you know, like what isn't it?
35:23
I'm like, I don't know. I think grappling with that
35:25
question of like how do you actually help is it's really
35:28
tough. Like, as an individual, what do
35:31
we do that will make this bigger impact, which will make change?
35:35
It's so hard because like, Anna and Tom, like, could we be
35:39
donating or on our time and energy?
35:42
But then in the end, it's like when government steps in and
35:45
pushes you aside, you know, what can we do?
35:47
And unless like, fight back, but I don't really know how much
35:51
these days at times, does that really help, you know?
35:54
The issue is the people who who read it.
35:59
People probably who will read it will already have views that are
36:02
very sympathetic to migrants, I imagine.
36:04
I don't think anybody who's like you commenting on YouTube saying
36:10
it was the migrants own fault is ever going to be picking up this
36:13
book or a book. But like, so it's kind of like,
36:18
but even but I was also thinking, I was like, I've
36:20
picked up this book. I've read it and I've been
36:23
deeply affected by it. What have I done?
36:27
You know, I've read it twice and I've done nothing like it is
36:33
just like, and then I'm like, OK, if I give money or you know,
36:38
which is I should really do and you can probably cut this all
36:41
around. But The thing is, you, you, you
36:44
tell give money Lucy, but there's still not fear.
36:47
I, I don't know if maybe this is my way of also diverting that
36:50
like guilt where what if that's mishandled or what if it doesn't
36:54
actually get to the people like. Yeah, it's mostly like with
36:57
charities. It's mostly given to like the
36:59
administration. Yes, but but is that also
37:03
something that people just say? So is that where they can excuse
37:06
not doing it? Yeah, but also, but also that's
37:09
a lot of money to did you know you would have to pay a huge
37:12
amount of money. We as a collector, as an
37:14
individual. I know the whole point is like
37:15
you build, you add to this part that then goes As for Lucy, I
37:19
can understand the graph. Like you're like, what have I
37:21
done? It's like what, what what like
37:23
this is what it comes back to. Like what is empathy good for?
37:25
Because while we empathize with these things, we can't actually
37:28
change it. Like we feel so powerless to to
37:31
the fact change. It all is so nebulous and yes,
37:34
like if you think I'll don't need money, then you can think,
37:38
Oh, I've done a good deed, but like that's just almost I'm I'm
37:43
not saying that people shouldn't don't need money, but I think
37:47
that that's and a simple way of people saying, Oh, I've done my
37:51
bit and like. Yeah, but I can.
37:54
Live in. But I, I know, but this is the
37:57
thing, when I worked, I worked for the charity for a bit.
38:00
I mean, I won't mention the name because I don't want to be like,
38:02
I don't know, taking the court. But I like there's a huge
38:06
scandal about their mis misappropriation of funds.
38:11
And I was working, I was getting paid, you know, working for this
38:14
charity and this big notable charity.
38:16
And it's the idea that that work that I was doing probably wasn't
38:20
actually affecting anyone. I was just like, it was a job
38:24
really, you know? Yeah.
38:25
Do you think that's why the second-half of the book hit so
38:28
hard? Yeah, I think so.
38:31
I. Get that perspective.
38:33
Yeah, I think it's, yeah, exactly.
38:35
It raises the empathy kind of bar of it.
38:38
Like she, it, it's her. I think at least from my point
38:41
of view, it's her trying to make sense and like empathize
38:44
completely with them, like be them, be present with them.
38:47
But again, oh, but like they come back to the same question.
38:51
What does that help? Like what does that fix?
38:53
It doesn't fix anything. It just gives us a a deeper
38:55
understanding of of the plight. Well, I we have a mutual friend
39:00
who's going to remain nameless and I don't want to misrepresent
39:06
their thoughts without them being here.
39:09
But from my understanding, they are very much involved in
39:14
activism and these kinds of movements, but even they can
39:22
become exasperated and worn out by in quotations like
39:29
meaningless acts of activism. And sometimes people perform,
39:38
it's more performative or it's more to feel like you feel like
39:42
you're doing something rather than it actually making a
39:45
difference. And which I thought that was an
39:48
interesting perspective and from somebody who is very actively
39:52
and engaged in these kinds of movements.
39:56
There's still like a commendation to be made for
39:57
those people, though, who are trying to.
39:59
But again, I think that's the whole thing we were talking
40:01
about, about grappling with this in a way of trying, trying to to
40:04
make it like, so we do something even if that, you know, does
40:08
fall in deaf ears. Something that I really liked
40:12
about the book and I thought was a really poignant moment is when
40:14
she talks about her father and he every time she goes for
40:21
dinner on a Sunday, he always tries to like, hold her hand and
40:24
he always kind of says to the the ether, he's like, my little
40:29
girl saves lives. And then?
40:31
That's obviously something that you know, because she's so
40:34
dispassionate and she's so dissociated in the start.
40:36
You're kind of like this must be something that is killing her
40:39
and you don't I don't. He alludes to it.
40:41
So like he don't he doesn't hit you over the head with it.
40:46
The writing doesn't make you think, Oh, this is like, she's
40:50
definitely feels guilty about it because she and her stream of
40:52
consciousness almost doesn't feel bad about it.
40:55
And she's almost happy at the end.
40:56
She's like, well, your little girl didn't save lives.
40:59
And I just thought that whole part was so heartbreaking, but
41:02
so brilliantly written. You.
41:04
It's not, it's not head over the head.
41:06
You're not, it's not over explaining it.
41:08
It's like, but this must be something that the person would
41:12
eat you alive. The idea that you're.
41:14
But like, she's clearly feeling that pressure from all angles,
41:17
like from the social side of it too with her family and even for
41:20
her daughter, she's probably like wants to make her daughter
41:22
proud that she is saving these people's lives.
41:25
I mean, this would weigh so heavily on anybody's conscience
41:28
because you're she's trying like she's doing more than we're
41:31
doing. You know, she is sending votes
41:33
even if she's failing to do that every time.
41:35
And like there isn't like an element of negligence or her
41:38
like dropping the ball in regards to like this instance or
41:41
whatever. Like it's pressure from
41:44
everything, from society, from governments, from, you know,
41:48
employers, whatever. All these things add up.
41:51
I really feel like though, just on what you said, they're
41:54
calling about her dropping the ball.
41:55
I I really don't think she did drop the ball.
41:58
I think that it was conscious. Now, it wasn't negligence.
42:02
I think it was active actively. I don't know the word is it was
42:09
it was just actively not negligent.
42:11
Like she, she definitely could have done something and it
42:13
wasn't even like it was like she had to go out of her way to do
42:15
something. Especially when that boat phones
42:18
her. She just has to say yes, pick
42:19
them up and those people will be alive.
42:22
You know, she has no reason for what she's done.
42:26
She's obviously acted in a in some state of being slightly
42:30
angry about the migrant situation in general.
42:34
And I think that if if she was, if she was negligent or
42:38
something happened to happen, like she had a bad headache or
42:41
something, I don't think that she would have.
42:43
This book wouldn't have been written because she's she she
42:47
might have felt guilty, but it wouldn't be the game.
42:50
Kind of, yeah. I guess the guilt is what sets
42:52
it apart. Yeah.
42:52
The guilt. It's like, you know, it's it is
42:55
genuine guilt. It's like not innocence.
42:57
She's because there's a whole talk.
42:59
But like, should we like, do you know you're only judged innocent
43:03
for the innocence of people? I can't remember the code, but
43:06
it's really good. It's like you can only be judged
43:07
innocent for the innocence of you're you're being like.
43:12
Proven guilty come out there, but.
43:14
She says like something an alternative that to that where
43:16
she's like, well, you all if the if people if you're walking into
43:20
a room and people already have this assumption.
43:23
Oh, I love that bitch. Yeah.
43:23
She's like, she's like, you're only so like innocent, like
43:27
there's a bar that she can never go below because people have
43:30
already made-up their their minds.
43:32
Yeah, yeah. That part of like 1 can only
43:34
prove one's innocence to the degree to which one has assumed
43:37
1 is innocent to start with. That part innocent.
43:40
But that but that implies that she herself isn't viewing
43:42
herself as innocent and like she is.
43:45
That guilt just coming out like. Yeah, yeah.
43:47
I was like, there's no way, because I was kind of reading
43:49
through it, trying to like logically parse what she says.
43:52
They're saying that that bit's quite dense in how it's written
43:55
and it's not for a lot of the book, it's quite
43:58
straightforward. And that bit I definitely, if it
43:59
was like, OK, I have to actually think about this, really like
44:03
have to spend time on this. And yeah, I think there's no way
44:06
of reading that without being like, your argument only makes
44:10
sense if you are innocent. But she's not innocent.
44:14
She's definitely, you know. This book hits so hard.
44:17
It's so many points like, and that's when we're getting into
44:20
like the middle bit, like the second chapter.
44:24
I had this like initial like when I was reading the first
44:26
chapter, I'm like, oh, I think my initial score will be like
44:29
this out of five. And I read the middle part and I
44:31
just changed it for me. Like, I don't know, it hit so
44:35
hard, like. I think, I think the middle part
44:37
is so affecting, you know, I think my favorite part of the
44:41
book. Yeah, the writing is incredible
44:43
there. His writing is incredible, yeah,
44:44
because it gets across like, without being like cold.
44:48
It gets across the emotion of it.
44:49
But also it's so it's like, it's like a horror movie almost like
44:52
you're, you're physically feeling this, like in this
44:55
length of time that's passing. It's so I don't know, it give me
44:58
chills, kind of like when I was reading it because it just feels
45:01
so like awful. The part where it's like, oh, I
45:05
think they promised help on like all we have to do is just sit
45:08
and wait. Like that got me so much because
45:10
it was like, because we know the help isn't coming, you know,
45:14
like for a long time, you know, for those like 2 remaining
45:17
survivors. And it's just that like whole
45:19
point where he's like, oh, I think they promised help.
45:22
And then it's like, oh, when I call again, it's like this voice
45:25
that like almost just doesn't care.
45:27
Like, oh, this book. I love this.
45:29
Book I know I really love the bit in the second part where
45:32
it's like he's already gone into the water, the phone is dropped.
45:36
That kind of it's it's at that point and he's like discussing
45:41
the way he's thinking. He's imagining what it would be
45:43
like if someone saved him. And I that part really it was
45:47
like, because you know, you would, you know, when you're in
45:49
a bit of a bad situation, obviously not the same situation
45:51
he's in, but you're just imagining everything better.
45:54
And it's like for ours, he's imagining someone rescuing him.
45:58
And I like it's, it's emotional. It's well, we're like in the
46:03
like in the 1st chapter where they're talking about you and
46:05
this like police interview. And it's like, Can you imagine,
46:08
like these people seen a boat come in and then you told them
46:10
to turn away and then we get the part where they, like, see the
46:13
boat. And they know that the boat sees
46:14
them because the spotlight. Yeah.
46:17
But one of the things that interests me too is like they
46:20
talk about these like commercial, like these, you
46:22
know, these tankers that are are carrying all this like, you
46:25
know, I guess a commercial product across the water.
46:29
And to me that hit home the idea, the theming that the world
46:33
like this capitalist, like machine of all this commerce is
46:37
still continuing. And these people, the people who
46:40
are like being effective on the fringes of all of this.
46:42
They're like watching this. And they could be saved by any
46:45
of these, you know, these tankers like why?
46:47
Why is it down to these governments in a way to be the
46:50
ones to send boats out to save these people, whereas like these
46:54
huge companies have what, built boats already in the water, you
46:56
know? That's so that's I never thought
46:59
of that, but that's such a good point.
47:01
I did read an article back in the day, like so I don't know
47:06
how much I remember, but I know that there was like small boats
47:10
and like fishermen that were safe from migrants and they got
47:12
in legal trouble for that. And it's not this idea that we
47:16
have to turn a blind eye that like we aren't actually, if we
47:19
see it, we're not allowed to help because then we put
47:21
ourselves in jeopardy. And like that goes against us
47:24
just being humans that like human nature element of wanting
47:27
to reach out and help. You know, that like what we've
47:30
all brought up to do, like, you know, if you see someone in
47:33
need, you know, you reach out. It's that idea.
47:35
Like you said, call and like the word goes on, you know, everyone
47:38
is just going to bite and these people are in the water.
47:40
So yeah, forgettable. Like, oh, we need to get that
47:42
Amazon package across the water, but those who are trying to like
47:45
who's dinghies literally sinking now, it doesn't matter.
47:48
I just wanted to say something unresponsible Colin had said
47:52
about how Part 2 was basically like a Horror Story.
48:00
Part 1 especially, she's very much haunted by the entire thing
48:05
and I think it's the way it's written is beautiful.
48:10
When she talks about how the migrants bodies are floating on
48:17
the desk of the inspector and they're floating amongst the
48:21
folders and the like ballpoint pens.
48:25
And then she's looking out the window at the building that's
48:30
being constructed and by African builders or construction
48:37
workers, and she starts to imagine them drowning and the
48:42
waters rising. And she's just as very clearly
48:47
haunted that no matter where she looks or where she thinks, she
48:51
sees these bodies. And she sees the same thing
48:55
happening over and over again. And it really does feel like a
48:59
ghost story. Yeah, definitely.
49:00
I think as well, like she mentions that she sees like the
49:03
migrants and her children, her child, sorry Serial and stuff
49:07
like that and. Yes, that part really got me.
49:10
Yeah, it's kind of like. Like drowning in the middle.
49:14
What do you think happened at the very end?
49:16
Are we assuming that she might have killed herself?
49:21
That's what I read it as and then I had to go back and read.
49:25
So I went and read so many different reviews to see if
49:29
someone else thought the same as me and no one did.
49:32
I came to the conclusion that she kept, but then I suppose
49:35
like, how do we know if someone might have saved her, if
49:38
anything? But it seems to me like she's
49:40
just walking into the water, but like, she's a good swimmer.
49:43
I don't think it's very easy for a good swimmer to kill
49:47
themselves on the shore of the sea, depending on what body of
49:51
water that is. Yeah, I thought she was
49:54
drowning, like, or trying to end her life because she was like,
49:58
oh, I'm gonna like, do those exercises to run, to start
50:01
moving again. But she's on in the same spot.
50:04
She doesn't move. Yeah.
50:05
And she's stuck there. I just.
50:07
I know the writing for this book.
50:08
I just absolutely adore it. There, there was one specific
50:13
part that that really just was peak writing for me, which it
50:18
was close to the start or the beginning of the book.
50:21
And when she talked about, I think it was close to the
50:26
beginning where she talks about the migrants having the water
50:32
grabbing at their ankles and like pulling them under.
50:36
And just the the descriptions, I think were really well done
50:40
because it really got the point across of oh, it's not just
50:45
they're in a digny and there's water filling up.
50:49
It's like, Oh no, the the sea or the the water are trying to pull
50:54
them under. We all just want this fantasy of
50:57
like things all working out. It's kind of like the migrant
51:00
when he's on the boat and he's imagining getting rescued and
51:03
everyone's put the tinfoil around him and he's and he's
51:06
warm again and it's like everyone has that.
51:10
Like everyone wants what they things to work out in some shape
51:15
or form. So I thought that was a really
51:16
sad part. At the end where it ended on the
51:18
line, you're not hearing me. You will not be saved like, and
51:22
I was like, oh, that hits in two parts of like the migrant.
51:26
He wasn't going to be saved, you know, but she's not going to be
51:29
saved now in a way, like I feel a way.
51:32
And her soul is like somewhat destroyed because she will never
51:36
almost in a way recover from this because it's her
51:39
responsibility in a way that so many people died that one night,
51:43
you know, and I, I literally closed the book and got chills.
51:47
Like I just was like, oh, it hits so hard.
51:51
The title that in French is no frag, which translates to
51:56
shipwreck. Like what do we think about like
51:59
that as a title? Because I think there is no
52:02
shipwreck in this. There's not like a shipwreck
52:03
implies like do you know it's gone down or it's crashed or
52:06
something's happened? I mean, yeah, something similar,
52:08
but it's not a ship. It's it's like not in that way.
52:12
I mean, maybe the shipwreck is her life or.
52:14
Something. Maybe there's more nuance to
52:16
that term though in French. Maybe that's.
52:18
True. Yeah, because I think small boat
52:20
is a better title than the shipwreck.
52:22
But then there might be some other meaning to that specific
52:25
word. Can I throw out a potential
52:28
title? Help is coming because it would
52:32
speak so much to if you read that title, you'd be like, OK,
52:36
like there's there's hope. And then?
52:39
Oh yeah, that's so sad. Yes, they were told help was
52:43
coming, but it never actually arrives.
52:45
So we have other people's thoughts, listeners who have
52:49
shared what they have been thinking.
52:52
I'm going to play you these thoughts.
52:55
The shortest distance between the UK and France is 6
52:58
kilometers or 4 miles. And the most popular swimming
53:02
route between them are 33 kilometers and 20 miles.
53:05
And you can see the other country from the closest points
53:09
across the river, the river, the ocean.
53:12
And the narrator actually jogs longer that, longer than that
53:16
distance in the book. And I feel that was meant to
53:20
highlight it as well. Like she could jog back in that
53:22
time. But they were stuck overnight
53:25
into the morning and there was so much time to save them.
53:30
And all our main perspective Margaret wanted was to work in a
53:36
grocery store. I think that is a really good
53:38
point that the narrator runs on the beach a longer distance than
53:46
the distance, the shortest distance between France and
53:49
England. Yeah, it's actually an
53:51
interesting point. That's a good point.
53:53
We also have Nick who has wrote to us and and shared his
53:56
thoughts. Hannah, if you want to give us a
53:59
sample of of what Nick has said. Yeah, So thanks, Nick, for
54:05
finding us. He thought that Small Boat was a
54:09
book that he found the most provocative of the whole
54:11
shortlist. And he loved the stories and
54:14
structured kind of as the interview and then the
54:16
discussion and then piercing them together.
54:18
He thought that the reading experience made him feel like he
54:21
was a jury with the policewoman as the prosecutor and the
54:25
narrator as the defendant, which is really interesting, actually.
54:29
Never even thought about it that way.
54:30
So good point, Nick. He kept going back and forth and
54:33
he was kind of rooting for only to find himself at the end as
54:37
the defendant with the plenty of evidence piled up against him on
54:41
the ignorance of the daily reality of the migrant crisis.
54:45
He thought it was a really clear, clever narrative and he
54:48
was looking forward for us to discussing it.
54:50
So thank you very much, Nick, for writing in.
54:53
Nick also through a lot of connections between some of the
54:58
other books in the shortlist and especially the books that we've
55:01
already read and a small boat and he's pointed out the likes
55:07
of a leopard skin hat and small boat.
55:11
Both deal with trying to see of someone while under the eye of
55:15
the big bird and Small Boat deal with watchers and and watching
55:21
something happening from a distance.
55:24
And We have perfection and small boat both deal with the migrant
55:27
crisis and travel of migrants travelling across bodies of
55:31
water and drowning. And lastly, he draws a
55:36
connection between on the calculation of Volume 1 and
55:40
small boat, how the relationships are lacking and
55:45
there's a repetition there and similar to the time loop.
55:51
And he also says hi, he agrees with me and thinks that leopard
55:57
skin hat is the best one of the whole grip.
56:00
And you're correct, Nick, so well done for having the right
56:03
opinion. But I think this is a great
56:07
e-mail, like not just because you agree with me, but like the
56:10
thought that he's put into everything.
56:12
He hasn't read and heartlamp yet.
56:14
So it'd be really interesting to know his thoughts on that.
56:16
He's kind of hit the nail on the head with the fact that this
56:18
actually connects to all of them.
56:20
It's almost like the glue that keeps them together.
56:22
In some ways it manages to to be similar to most of the books
56:25
that we've looked at so far. And also that's why I think
56:30
could I put that up as a winner? Maybe.
56:33
I think on calculation and volume I think and maybe this
56:37
one could could be the winner. OK.
56:40
So, So what would you give this out of five then?
56:43
I think I'm going to go. So I'm, I'm a really, I direct
56:48
myself with how I've ranked things so far because I think
56:50
it's better than on calculation, but I don't think the writing is
56:54
quite as good as leopard skin. So I'm like kind of sandwich.
56:58
Maybe I should have put? Are you going to go for like a
57:02
one point or sorry a 4.1 something?
57:06
4.25 for small note and then 4.54 point 5 for leopard skin
57:12
hat. I think leopard skin hat is like
57:15
the writing is incredible for that, like it's beautiful.
57:19
So and I do think small boat is really, really good as well.
57:21
Like I think it's it's got such an important message and it's it
57:26
really makes you think in a nuanced way.
57:27
It's not. I think the way that he's
57:29
written this, the piercing, everything about it is pretty,
57:32
pretty perfect. So yeah, I'm I'm going 4.25.
57:37
Paul and what do you think? So I, I really like this.
57:40
I think I would give this a four out of five.
57:42
It's been my favorite written of of the book so far.
57:46
And I think like the the theming and the things that is explored
57:49
are really, really important. And again, in terms of
57:51
enjoyment, I actually think I preferred big bird over this,
57:54
but that's more down to like the enjoyment of reading as opposed
57:57
to the themes and stuff. But I do think that this book
58:00
was very, very, very good. And if this wins, I mean, I'm, I
58:04
think I'm leaning this one to be my personal winner at the
58:07
moment. And if this wins, I would be
58:08
very, very happy. I agree with Colin I I would
58:12
give this four out of five and I could see this as a potential
58:17
winner and I would be happy for this to win.
58:21
I do agree with Colin that Under the Eye of the Big Bird was a
58:26
bit more my type of book and just a bit more enjoyable for
58:31
me. But I think that this book
58:34
really took a tough topic and made it enjoyable, as as strange
58:41
as that sounds. And I think it did it a lot more
58:45
skillfully than a leopard skin hat.
58:48
I know that leopard skin hat was really good writing, which was
58:52
maybe a little more raw. I will give it that.
58:56
And Hannah, what do you think? I absolutely adored this book
59:00
from like the political legal headed minded person.
59:05
Like I related so many ways in the character like getting on
59:09
that detached like this is my job I must do this to Like Then
59:13
the humanitarian side of things coming in the 2nd chapter
59:17
absolutely just hit me like I don't know where.
59:20
And the fact that when I finished the book I had to sit
59:22
for a few minutes and take it in and I literally had chills was
59:27
in sitting. And I'm going to give it 45 and
59:30
as again I will say everything from the cover to the title to
59:33
the writing, it was everything that I've been looking for.
59:37
I have not read it about 485 in a long time, so my ratings are
59:41
45. Absolutely adored it.
59:43
I appreciate Leopard Skin hat Lucy for what it tried to do,
59:47
but a small boat just hit harder.
59:49
A Small Boat is my winner. I know we haven't finished it
59:53
yet, but it's my winner. A book that reminds me kind of
59:56
this topic in a way is also called The Wall.
59:58
I'll send it across. It was a Kotlin recommendation,
1:00:02
not The Wall that Lucy was talking about last week, but.
1:00:04
It's a different wall. We also have the thoughts of
1:00:07
Stacey from What Stacey. Read Next on Instagram.
1:00:11
I've read three books from the International Booker Prize
1:00:15
shortlist this year. Perfection.
1:00:18
Absolutely loved the millennial vibes of that one and I will
1:00:21
also read almost anything that Fitzgeraldo put out on the
1:00:25
calculation of volume. I thought the writing was
1:00:28
gorgeous. I'm not totally sure that one
1:00:32
works as a stand alone because I was definitely reading it
1:00:35
knowing there are more books to come.
1:00:38
My winner would absolutely be Small Boat.
1:00:40
I think it poses some really important questions and it does
1:00:44
it in such an impactful way that for me, that's the kind of thing
1:00:48
that should be winning a literary prize.
1:00:52
It seems like we might be onto a winner with small boats and I'm
1:00:56
curious to see if next weeks book Heartlamp will also be a
1:01:01
potential winner. So you can join us for that.
1:01:05
That will be our final book and that episode will be coming out
1:01:09
the day before the winner is announced.
1:01:12
So we'll we'll be summarizing all of our our thoughts in that
1:01:16
episode as well. It might be a little bit of an
1:01:18
extended episode so we can each say what book we think will win
1:01:25
and maybe rank, rank everything. If you want to get in touch with
1:01:28
us, then check us out on Facebook, Twitter, and
1:01:32
Instagram. Just search Bookie's favorite
1:01:36
book club podcast and we should show up.
1:01:40
And Lucy, you want to tell them about Goodreads?
1:01:43
We have a Goodreads under the name of the bookie's favorite
1:01:47
book club, and we post weekly reviews of the books that we
1:01:51
read. Yeah, it's been so fun to hear
1:01:53
everyone's opinions and thoughts in the book, so please get
1:01:57
involved and share with us. Yes and please please, please
1:02:01
send us emails. We love the emails that we we've
1:02:03
received so far. The e-mail address is
1:02:06
bookiesfavoritebookclub@gmail.com. All you have to do is go to the
1:02:10
description, it's already there, tap on it and that will populate
1:02:14
an e-mail for you to send to us. Well, we have one last thing to
1:02:18
say then. Bye.