Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 173. Fundamental Footprints - The Joseph Oakes Interview - Testimony from BJU

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173. Fundamental Footprints - The Joseph Oakes Interview - Testimony from BJU · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:10
I found my freedom in you. I found a toy I can't lose, and
0:20
thank God it's true. You wrapped your arms around me
0:24
and heaven broke through. From the moment she found me.
0:29
I found. Welcome to the Four Freedom
0:34
Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the
0:37
freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians.
0:40
With everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James
0:44
Seyfried and Brett Morris. Welcome back to the Four Freedom
0:49
Podcast. So glad you're with us today.
0:51
We're so thankful to be with you.
0:54
It is our goal to just come to you and had conversations and
0:59
open dialogue about the freedom that we have in Christ, and we
1:02
are so thankful to be here. You know, it's being on this
1:06
podcast. It means a lot to me.
1:08
And we've had some of you reach out to us over the past couple
1:13
weeks concerning the subject that we're talking about, the
1:17
Footprints Fundamentalism series.
1:19
And we're so thankful that you're enjoying it, that you're
1:21
getting some from it. Our goal isn't isn't just to to
1:25
bash. We want to get somebody's
1:27
experience, good and bad. But we are thankful that you're
1:31
here with us. James, tell us how things are
1:34
going in your neck of the woods. Let's go man.
1:37
Things are great. We are finishing up school.
1:39
My kids finished on Tuesday and we're going, we went yesterday
1:44
to get my son's passport. He's going to be going down to
1:47
Nicaragua with us when we go down in September, October,
1:51
whenever that is. And looking forward to that,
1:53
looking forward to the excitement of what that comes
1:55
with it. And man, we're gearing up for
1:58
summertime. We've got, I'm on the board of
2:01
directors for the North Carolina State Convention.
2:04
And so we just had our board of directors meeting at the at Oak
2:08
Island in eastern North Carolina on the coast and had a great
2:12
time there with about 80 men and women that were just join each
2:16
other's fellowship. Great time of talking.
2:18
I did create a little bit of a firestorm.
2:20
I made a motion as a board of directors to change something
2:24
out of the ordinary. You've been there conventions
2:26
with me. I don't talk in rooms like that.
2:28
I just let people deal with it. But that was one thing that I
2:31
just didn't like in the policy. And I mean, it was like a 45
2:35
minute conversation, Brett, it, it was crazy.
2:37
And so I just was like, I'm so sorry.
2:39
I didn't mean for this to happen like, no, no, it's good for the
2:43
input and talk. And so we have a good time with
2:47
that and a great, I, I'm a little fatigued.
2:50
You know, I, I was in meetings all day and then I drove out
2:54
something Monday morning meeting Monday night that was up till
2:57
about 11:30, hanging out with some guys and then got up early
3:02
meetings, got let, hit the road right after lunch and got home,
3:07
went to baseball games. And so I really haven't
3:10
recovered from just the driving and the, the mental capacity of
3:13
all that. So I'm a little sluggish today.
3:15
I'm thankful that we started our summer break for our small
3:20
group. So we don't have service tonight
3:22
when we're recording this on Wednesday.
3:25
And so, yeah, things are, things are going good.
3:27
Just hitting the road ready to ready for big Dallas, man, It's
3:30
coming up. We'll be there in just a couple
3:32
of weeks. I'll be there on the second at
3:35
my sister's house. And so man, we're we're excited
3:38
about getting 14 days away from ministry and just a time of
3:42
rest, relaxation, convention work and it's going to be great.
3:48
We've been had a pretty busy season of life too.
3:51
We've got a crusade coming up in our county.
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Alex McFarland from American Family Radio is going to preach
3:58
a four day long crusade in our county and it's kind of laid on
4:04
me to organize it. I'm the evangelism director for
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our local association. And so we've been gathering
4:11
pastors and getting churches together, getting that plan.
4:14
Every month it gets closer. We're going to have it in
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September. So we've been planning on that.
4:20
And then we have a community day coming up where we're going to
4:23
the local Dollar General store. We're going to give out free
4:25
hamburgers and just kind of serve our community.
4:29
And people are in my church are really excited about that.
4:32
We're looking forward to it. But I just like you.
4:35
We've got some some downtime coming up this Memorial Day
4:39
weekend. I've got a camp on the Bogachita
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River and say that five times fast.
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And so we are going to the Bogachita and we can do some
4:49
swimming, some fishing. We're going to come back to the
4:52
church for a few days and they're going to turn right
4:54
around and go on to Dallas, you know, And so we're we are
4:59
looking forward to getting way and enjoying that.
5:01
And let's see we've got Dallas coming up.
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We don't have G3 anymore. That's Brett.
5:08
I'm. Afraid if I said that word boga
5:11
chita, if I said that more than one time in a row, I would begin
5:15
cussing. And so I don't know how you said
5:18
that a multiple times because that was incredible.
5:21
Yeah. Boga Chita, No Boga Chita.
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But yeah, we raised around that river, but my dad's got a camp
5:29
down there. It's now mine.
5:31
And so we are looking forward to getting away and enjoying some
5:34
of that time. Let's see, we've got Dallas and
5:37
we've got Israel. Don't forget about Israel.
5:40
It's still still there. We still want to bring you to
5:42
Israel. Check out the website and go
5:46
with us the last January 1st February at 2025.
5:51
It'll be a great experience. Yeah, we've got Dallas.
5:56
Speaking of Dallas, we're going to be meeting up while we're
5:58
there. If you're in the area, let us
6:00
know. We're going to have some people
6:02
over at our house. We're also going to maybe hang
6:03
out at a lounge and enjoy some company.
6:07
And so it we're going to have a supply of our cigars with us.
6:12
I think we're going to have close to 40 or 50 cigars with
6:16
us. And so if you're interested in
6:18
picking up some while we're there, come see me or Brett,
6:20
we'll have them. And so we're really excited
6:23
about that and excited about some things with that adventure
6:27
that's going to be coming at the end of the summer.
6:29
We are going to we're, we're really close to rolling out some
6:33
great things and so excited about that opportunity.
6:37
And then Brett, this is this is new.
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I just found out this yesterday. We haven't even had time to talk
6:42
about it. But there's going to be a
6:44
conference in Tullahoma, TN in September since G3 got cancelled
6:50
that we're going to go to and I'll be there at least it's just
6:54
about 20 minutes, thirty minutes from John's house.
6:56
So I'm going to be lodging with John and we're going to set up
7:00
our our cigars there in Tullahoma.
7:03
And we're going to be at the conference, but also be
7:06
promoting that adventure and be able to sell to those who are
7:10
interested there locally. So we're tired about that and
7:14
what we've got going on. Amen.
7:17
I'm ready to go and I'll look into it.
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That's pretty cool. And I look I, I before we get
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into our interview in just a second, I do want to say, listen
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guys, I know where summer break is right around the corner, but
7:29
we're not stopping with these fundamental footprints.
7:33
We've got big plans, we've got big things coming.
7:35
We've got interviews that are going to shock you.
7:38
We've got we've got a hold of some people that are like what?
7:43
I can't believe they got this guy to interview.
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And so we've got some things coming down the Pike.
7:48
Even after the summer break, we're going to come back, we're
7:51
going to hit the ground running with this thing and we're
7:55
looking forward to what we've got coming down the Pike.
7:58
Yeah, we were planning to, you know, just hit this real briefly
8:01
and be done by the summer. And the way that things have
8:05
rolled out with interviews and other things, we're going to
8:08
just sort of keep going with some interviews right now.
8:11
And then when we come back from our break, our summer break,
8:14
we're going to roll out some. We may Brett, we may call it the
8:18
the bald man interviews that maybe maybe it's a little hint
8:22
there to some guys we've got coming on be thinking of some
8:25
bald preachers, some bald guys that are leading in the
8:29
independent world but also in the recovering world and looking
8:34
forward to some great things, some big time interviews we've
8:37
got coming up so. Yeah, be careful criticizing
8:40
them. They'll get the She Bears after
8:42
you love. It well we are excited about
8:45
what we've got going today Brett why don't we jump right into our
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interview today let's. Go.
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Well, we are excited about having Joseph Oakes here today
8:54
for our interview today. He is a graduate and an
8:59
expertise, you could say, at Bob Jones University, and we're
9:02
excited to have him on. Joseph, welcome to the show.
9:04
Why don't you tell us just a little bit about yourself, your
9:07
background, where you're from, and what you're doing now?
9:10
Yeah. So and thanks again for having
9:14
me on today. My name is Joseph Oakes.
9:16
I am originally from Eastern North Carolina.
9:23
I attended Bob Jones from 2006 to 2010.
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I graduated there in 2010. Then after that I went to NC
9:35
State for my Master's and PhD. Since then I've been working
9:40
here at Virginia India Tech. Right now I'm the the director.
9:46
Of. Of of an off campus agricultural
9:50
station. Virginia Tech has I'm eleven AG
9:54
research stations. I'm around the state and I'm up
9:58
here in Abahannock, Virginia, about an hour east of Richmond.
10:03
So yeah, so that's something about me.
10:09
I can get more into things later as we go on SO.
10:14
What year did you graduate from NC State?
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I got my Master's in 2012 and my PhD in 2015.
10:22
Gotcha, Gotcha. Have a couple guys from from the
10:24
church that that we ate. So Steven Campbell, I don't know
10:28
if you'd know that name or not, but yeah, in agriculture as
10:31
well. So yes, cool.
10:34
Yeah. Well, Joseph?
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We want to talk a little bit about your time and the
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independent Fundamental Baptist movement.
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We want to know how you first got involved with it, What
10:45
initially attracted you to it? Yes, so I'll back up some.
10:51
My parents started attending an independent Baptist Church when
10:55
I was 5 or 6 in Greenville, NC. I started going to the Christian
11:02
School there when I was in in in the garden, and at that time my
11:08
both of my parents had been raised Methodist and they had
11:12
been attending a Methodist Church or they had gone there
11:15
other whole lives. But before I was born, there was
11:19
some things they had they just didn't see how to I with
11:23
anymore. My dad had gotten saved a couple
11:27
weeks before I was born and that started to have some questions
11:32
in his mind about things that the Methodist Church is
11:34
teaching, things of that nature. But anyway, Long story short.
11:39
The Methodist Church they went to quit having Sunday school in
11:42
the summer and that was like their ticket or their thing
11:48
saying, OK, well we have a new child, we want them to be in
11:51
church and some Sunday school, things of that nature.
11:53
So that's when they started attending the, the church where
11:56
I, I was going to school at. No, it, it was an independent
12:01
Baptist Church and they made no apologies for that.
12:05
But I'll say it's not like a lot of IFP churches that you would
12:10
hear about on either your podcast or the RFP or something
12:12
like that. They preached the word.
12:15
They were not focused on externals, things of that
12:18
nature. You know, women in the church in
12:22
the school wear pants, things of that nature.
12:24
So it's, it's not like that. They were really hardcore about,
12:28
you know, those external things. So I know I didn't ever really
12:32
have a, a bad experience there as some folks I would have at
12:37
other places. And I'm very thankful for that.
12:42
My pastor, he preached the word, you know, he preached the
12:46
expository preaching. And then he retired when I was,
12:53
I think it's 2010, 2011, he retired that, that, that, that,
12:58
that was after I graduated from Bob Jones and then a new pastor.
13:03
Amen. And he's kind of made some more
13:07
changes. I I would say at that church a
13:10
lot of the music has changed, which is upset some folks.
13:14
Things of that nature. My mom told me about a family
13:17
that said the day they brought all in drums, the day they
13:20
walked. Out things of.
13:21
That nature so you know, they're still independent, they still
13:26
preach the word, but they've made a lot of changes and have
13:29
praise music, drums and things like that.
13:31
So that's Long story short, kind of my experience and how I was
13:38
introduced to to do the Independent Baptist Church.
13:41
So. Yeah, a lot of people we talked
13:43
to that is it's very similar. You know, they're sort of born
13:46
into it or their family was was sort of born into it.
13:50
So when we asked that question, sometimes it's I was later on in
13:53
life, you know, Brett's story as a teenager, they were they were
13:58
going to a liberal. And so he has.
14:01
He was the only one in his family that sort of went to the
14:04
independent church down the road because they were preaching
14:06
truth and they were right. And blessed with them.
14:10
I was. I was.
14:10
A bus kid. And so I was, like I said, I'm
14:13
the only one in my family that went there.
14:15
Yeah. So I think it's interesting to
14:18
ask that because it gives us a perspective of your, you know,
14:21
is this part of your whole life? Did you choose this?
14:24
Where's it at? But then you said you went to
14:26
Bob Jones and it sort of fits in with where we're at.
14:28
We're talking about our fundamental footprints right
14:30
now. And so we want us to just to
14:33
sort of explore. Before you went to NC State and
14:36
you got your masters and doctorate there, what was your
14:39
experience? It's like at Bob Jones
14:41
University and give us the years you were there.
14:44
Who was in charge while you were there?
14:47
Yeah. So I was there from 2006 to
14:51
2010. Stephen Jones was president when
14:58
I was there. I think he had been there a
15:01
couple years. They they just made the
15:03
transition from. Bob Jones the 3rd to Stephen
15:08
Jones. Bob Jones the third.
15:10
I I was still there as Chef Angeler.
15:13
He was very much involved. I would say at least once or
15:16
twice a week he would preach Chapel, things of that nature.
15:21
So he he was still there. You would see him a lot.
15:25
But Steve, even Jones was the prep president at that time.
15:31
So, yeah. And so basically talking about
15:35
my experiences there. I, I, I, I would say overall it
15:42
was very, very good. I got a great education there
15:47
which very well prepared me to go to NC State to get my masters
15:52
in AHDI. Tell people that the classes,
15:57
the undergrad classes there were tougher than the graduate level
16:01
courses I took at NC State. And Bob Jones had just recently
16:08
become a credit credit I think the year or two before I got
16:12
there. So I didn't have any trouble.
16:15
I'm I'm I'm I'm or anything like that, you know, going to
16:19
Graduate School. One thing I think is important
16:24
to point out is that no matter what your major was, and my
16:28
major was by, by, by, by, by, by by all the G and my minor was in
16:36
big business. You were required to.
16:39
Take a Bible course every semester.
16:42
So I remember, excuse me, I remember.
16:51
I think I was either a sophomore.
16:52
I don't remember. What year?
16:54
But I took a hermeneutics class and that was really the first
16:58
time I I heard a lot about that. And I remember the professor
17:03
talked about exegesis and isogesis and once I heard that
17:08
this I guess the scales. Kind of fell off my eyes, you
17:11
know, from there on out, I always looked at sermons
17:14
differently, you know, whether a pastor was preaching
17:17
expositionally through the word or he was trying to read in his
17:22
own opinion to it. So that's something that I
17:25
learned in a hermeneutic duties class that Bob Jones there.
17:28
That stuck up with me through this day.
17:30
You know, I think the biblical world view, it's very important
17:36
that they have their, you know, especially taking science
17:39
classes. That's very key.
17:43
Most folks at that age, they're very they, they can be easily
17:48
swayed things of that nature in their faith and their I belief
17:52
system. So, you know, if they were to go
17:54
to a secular school then. With someone teaching evolution
17:58
then their faith might might might be swayed so I think.
18:00
That was very important. The science classes there were
18:04
all top notch. Most of the teachers that taught
18:09
the science courses there had worked in their field before
18:13
they came to Bob Jones, so that they had had a, a career in what
18:18
they had were teaching. Most of them, I know they took a
18:23
pay cut to come teach about Bob, Bob, Bob Jones.
18:25
And so I think that's very commendable.
18:29
Most of all the teachers I had were good Christian folks.
18:33
They were dedicated Christians. They served in, in their church,
18:37
things of that nature. So I can say from the faculty
18:43
perspective, like the teaching faculty, this I, I guess faculty
18:48
folks like that. I've never had a problem.
18:51
I, I never had a bad experience or anything.
18:55
One thing another thing I wrote down just about the classes
19:01
there I think is key is that everyone is required to take at
19:05
least. Two or two or three speech.
19:07
Classes while they're there and I think that's very important.
19:11
You know, when I went to Bob Jones, I mean, I had a huge fear
19:15
of public speaking, stuttered quite a bit.
19:19
I still do from time to time, but I don't care about it now.
19:23
But you know, I learned, I remember I had a class there my
19:28
junior year. I had to give a 30 minute talk
19:31
and it like the start of the year that scared me to death.
19:34
But by the time I got to it, it was no big deal And and now I
19:38
give talks like that in my job all the time so.
19:43
You know, you know, to wrap this first part up, I think from an
19:47
educational side, I think Bob Jones is top notch, or it was
19:51
then. I know I don't really know
19:53
exactly what's going on there now.
19:56
I'll talk about that later. But from an educational side,
20:02
when I was there, it was top, top notch.
20:06
Love it. One of the things you know, my
20:08
wife's school, they have recently moved over to the Bob
20:11
Jones Education School and my kids, my wife, they love it.
20:17
They think it's great, very deep, very educational, very
20:22
astute in the way they do it. And it just, it shows the the
20:27
quality of the education for you as getting your undergrad there.
20:32
But then going to NC State and them accepting all those
20:35
credits, get your master's, getting your PhD level.
20:40
So that that's that's huge. As far as the education side of
20:42
it, while you were there, could you describe the church culture
20:46
and leadership style and sort of what that was while you were
20:50
there? Yeah, yeah.
20:52
So. It it it was stated and and
20:57
emphasized several times that they were non denominational.
21:01
They made that clear. Although most folks that taught
21:06
there in most of the admin and I would say were were in the in
21:10
the bad Baptist. There were a lot of Bible
21:15
churches in that area that folks went to, several independent
21:20
Baptist churches. So that's kind of what mostly
21:26
was taught and what most folks were.
21:29
I, I, I, I would say it was kind of a different situation than
21:37
most Christian colleges. As you know, they don't have a
21:43
church there, but when I was there they would have a Sunday
21:47
morning. Service.
21:48
I don't think they do that now, but when I was there they did.
21:53
It was very formal, think very high Church, Oregon hymns by Bra
22:04
Bra Bra and music, things like that.
22:06
It was. Very high church, very formal.
22:09
So that wasn't wasn't was required for all undergraduate
22:13
students unless you work any in a church somewhere like as a
22:18
Sunday school teacher or help with children's church or bus or
22:22
something like like that. So to be frank.
22:26
I didn't care for their Sunday morning service.
22:29
There was just too for formal for my my my style the most
22:35
time. The preaching was great, but I
22:38
just didn't care for the formality of the service.
22:41
So. I don't remember what year I
22:44
started, but I know. I know my last two years I did
22:48
and I think part of my third year over my first year, but I
22:52
worked at a a low local church. I served there.
22:55
I helped with their children's church and things like that.
22:58
So that kind of got me out of not having to go to the Sunday
23:03
morning service there, which I think improved my experience
23:07
somewhat. So I was able to go to a local
23:12
church and be involved there and go Sunday mornings, Sunday
23:17
nights, Wednesday nights, things of that nature.
23:20
So I would say most students. There, I would say about half of
23:25
them probably went to that Sunday morning service and then
23:28
the other half had a church that they served at and and went to
23:32
it other times throughout, you know, Sunday nights, things like
23:35
that. It was not required for students
23:39
to go to Sunday night or Wednesday night service off
23:41
campus, but they did ask you each month if you did or not.
23:47
I don't know why, since it wasn't since it wasn't I'm
23:51
required, but anyway, so so that that's kind of the the the
23:58
church culture there. I'm I'm with that answers.
24:03
By your question, I can go into more detail and things, but I,
24:09
I, I say the leadership style and I can go into now some of
24:13
the legal the leadership style and rules things of that nature
24:17
if you want. The leadership style was very
24:23
focused on external standards, external conformity, how we
24:28
portray ourselves to the public, things of that nature which
24:33
which to a certain. Extent is fine, in my opinion.
24:37
At some point, you know what you're going to get when you go
24:40
over there. But where I saw it, where I saw
24:45
an issue with is when they tried to tie it to holy little living
24:49
godliness, things like that, you know?
24:51
Yeah, it's great that that we will want to have these.
24:55
This great a portrayal to to our community, but just because
25:00
you're following rules don't mean you're right with God.
25:02
Things of that nature. So so when it comes to the
25:08
rules, they were very strict on the freshmen and sophomores.
25:15
Everyone there could have cars, but if you're a freshman or
25:20
sophomore, you you could not take your car off campus unless
25:24
you you were going to work at a church, as I said, as I said
25:29
earlier, so that that, that that's the only way if you were
25:32
a freshman or sophomore that that you could use your car.
25:35
If not all you had to ride with someone who was in upper
25:39
classroom. So they kept your cars locked
25:41
away? Almost.
25:42
If you were a freshman or sophomore.
25:45
Once you became a junior senior, that opened up that those
25:49
freedoms opened up quite a bit. You, you were able to go off
25:53
campus. Now, if it was before 7:00, then
25:58
you didn't have to make a pass. I'm reading things like that.
26:02
But after 7:00 you would have to.
26:06
Create a pass and all that was done online and they had guys
26:11
that worked at. The the dads who worked for the
26:16
Dean of students and they were basically approved of it or not,
26:19
but you know, are y'all has I mean, you had to tell them.
26:23
Where you were, you were going, things like that, you know,
26:26
shopping out to eat, you know, going to a ball game or
26:30
something or yeah, whatever. The thing I always did was be as
26:36
vague as pop possible so there's ever a question.
26:39
You wouldn't really get in trouble there.
26:44
You know, you're going shopping and then doing several other
26:46
things. Then you just say I'm going
26:48
shopping and out to eating. You know, you might be gone four
26:50
or five hours or. Something like that.
26:52
So I would say, you know, when I was there there.
26:58
Were a lot of folks who were all about other rules.
27:03
They were called a boge. That's the.
27:05
Way it was called on, you know, folks that you knew might snitch
27:09
on your things like that. I wasn't like that you know, I
27:14
try to keep keep my head low. I mean I didn't always obey all
27:17
the rules, but I I didn't ever really get in trouble there.
27:20
I guess I knew how I just knew how to keep my head low things
27:24
like that. But overall, I mean, if somebody
27:32
is not used to that those sets of rules, I think it was a shock
27:36
to them. But for most folks that grew up
27:38
in a appreciation home with rules and standard standards.
27:43
I I didn't think it was that, that that bad.
27:48
Looking back on it now is like, yeah, they probably treated, you
27:52
know, folks 18 to 22 like. Children.
27:55
But you know, I think some of that has changed now, but I'm
28:03
just trying to look through some notes I had written down.
28:06
Yeah, while you say that, I yeah, I was listening to
28:09
podcasters the other day and they made the statement that a
28:14
lot of the higher education learning, this was nothing to do
28:16
with public school or any or right has really.
28:20
It has coddled the maturity of men and women because it's just
28:26
keeps us in the adolescent state even longer.
28:30
Poor people and and people need to go for certain reasons, but
28:35
it has turned into this. We're going to take all the
28:38
responsibility away from you and we're going to keep you in that
28:42
dependent adolescent state and not be a contributing member to
28:46
society longer of life. Exactly, And that that I just
28:51
want a couple other things I wanted to mention.
28:55
They they did have an approved list of churches in the area
29:00
that you could go go to. And and more and more I think
29:05
about that. I'm like, well, once you get out
29:07
of college, you're not going to have anybody telling Ellen you
29:10
where you can go to church. It's up for you and your wife or
29:14
your family to make that choice where you're going to go to
29:17
church. So why not go ahead and get into
29:19
that habit while you're in college?
29:22
I mean, I know why they would do it to protect, you know, folks
29:25
from learning false teaching, I guess, false doctrine at other
29:28
churches. But you know, once you're out,
29:33
you're not going to have nobody tell you go to this church or
29:35
you can't go to that that church.
29:36
So I think that part is kind of unnecessary.
29:42
Another another thing they did that I think it had good
29:46
intentions, but they would require everyone to go to class,
29:51
which I think is great, but that doesn't help someone out for
29:55
when they get out of school. I mean, when you're out of
29:58
school, there's nobody going to be telling you, hey, you go, go
30:02
to work today. I mean, if you don't go to your
30:04
job, you'll you'll get it fired, you know.
30:06
And so that's another way where you're 18 to 22 years old,
30:12
you're out of the home. You should be taking some
30:16
responsibility at that point. You know, if you go to go to
30:19
class, then you do good. If you don't, then you don't
30:22
learn and you fail. You know that that's just kind
30:24
of how I view view things. So, you know, and I had a
30:30
professor say one time he said you, you, you will be thankful
30:33
that we made you go to class because most schools don't.
30:37
And I'm like, yeah, I know that. But if you don't go, you'll fail
30:41
and you're ultimately paying ought to go.
30:44
So if you fail enough classes, you will they eventually learn
30:48
that that you need to be to be there.
30:50
So yeah. Right.
30:52
And at some point you got to learn self responsibility.
30:55
Exactly. I relate to you a little bit on
30:58
the church Sunday morning deal because at First Baptist Ham and
31:01
I wasn't too keen on that Sunday morning service.
31:05
So I got into children's church to get out of it.
31:08
So I definitely can relate a little bit.
31:10
But I'm sitting here listening to you talk and this question
31:15
kind of comes up in my mind. When you were in that
31:18
environment, did you, were you convinced by it or did you see
31:24
it? And like, something's not right
31:26
here? How much of that actually shaped
31:30
your view of ministry in the gospel and, and how much of it
31:33
were your eyes open to? It was like that.
31:36
That doesn't seem right to me. Yeah.
31:41
I don't think I was necessarily shaped by it.
31:44
I think you could pretty much tell who was real and who
31:50
wasn't, you know, who was actually there to, you know,
31:54
from the faculty standpoint, who was there to serve the Lord
31:59
through their teaching at Bob Jones.
32:02
And then there were some folks that that you knew were not a
32:05
word, were fake. You know what I'm saying?
32:09
I think that that was very obvious.
32:17
So I, I don't think it shaped my view of the God gospel one way
32:22
or the other. You know, like I said, I, you
32:26
know, when you go, you more or less know what the rules are.
32:32
You sign the handbook that you're going to obey the rules.
32:37
So I mean, at that point it's on you.
32:40
I mean, you know, you can kind of go along with them while
32:43
you're there, even though you don't agree with some things.
32:47
But as far as how it shaped? My view of the the.
32:50
Gospel reading, I don't think it did one one way or the other.
32:55
I would say most Bible faculty there from everything about
33:00
either took from the Bible classes I took or for when they
33:04
preached in Chapel. They they, they were all great.
33:09
You know, and I can touch more on this later.
33:16
I don't know if you know this, but Bob Jones is not King James
33:19
only. And that's probably a sticking
33:23
point for most folks in the IFB. You know, I don't know what they
33:28
do now. When I was there, they would
33:31
preach in Chapel and church services from the King James.
33:34
But when you know, in but most students there did not use the
33:40
King James in class that they would have, you know, ESB, new
33:44
American standard, new new King James, things like that.
33:47
So that was pretty much expected.
33:51
Most of the churches that faculty and staff went went to
33:56
our not all King James only. So that was kind of eye opening
34:01
me. I mean, I knew it was like that,
34:03
but the church I grew up in was King James only.
34:07
And I remember someone said, well, you're they're they're not
34:11
King James. You're going through a liberal
34:12
school. I was like, well, they're not
34:15
very liberal. I mean, I guess in that sense
34:18
all that they are. But as far as the fundamentals
34:21
of the faith and things of that nature, that they were very
34:23
straight. So, and I don't, I mean for me
34:31
now that's not a big deal one way or the other.
34:34
I mean, what I view it as I received a great education there
34:38
and if they're King James or not, at that point it didn't
34:41
matter to, to, to, to, to, to, to me, so.
34:46
OK, well, you, you didn't leave Bob Jones, you graduated.
34:51
And So what I, what we want to talk about now is your shift
34:57
away from the IFB movement. Was there like a, a specific
35:02
turning point or gradual shift? What kind of made you step away
35:07
from the IFB? And also after that, tell us
35:10
what was the hardest part of leaving?
35:13
Yeah. Before I do do that, I can I
35:19
jump back into a couple things and Bob, Bob, Bob Jones.
35:23
All right, quick. If you I mean if you, I mean if
35:26
you can. Edit that part out.
35:28
There there were other things on the rules aspect I wanted to
35:35
touch on. So when I was first started,
35:39
there was you wear shirt and tie khaki pants to class and girls
35:44
wear skirts, things of that nature.
35:46
Even going off hand campus you you you would have to wear khaki
35:52
pants all all her shirt things that nature and girls of.
35:55
Course have to wear skirts and dresses so.
35:57
When I was there, that rule changed as far as going off
36:01
campus, guys could wear jeans off campus girls could wear
36:03
pants. So I think that's changed more
36:06
sentence then. But one funny thing I wanted
36:10
wanted to share. The first couple years there,
36:15
you couldn't even wear shorts outside of your your your dorm.
36:19
But most folks would to go either to take out the trash or
36:23
go outside to talk on the phone or something like that.
36:26
So one night I went outside to talk on the phone.
36:30
I had my gym shorts on. I was sitting on the bench
36:33
outside the front door and one guy came out.
36:35
He's like, hey man. He's like, hey, hey, hey, hey,
36:38
hey, hey, hey. You know you can't wear short
36:41
shorts outside, don't you? I was like, yeah, I know.
36:43
I'm just out here on the phone. He's like, oh, well, you can't
36:46
do that. You're breaking the rules.
36:48
I'm like, OK, whatever. And so like 5 minutes 5 and it's
36:53
later the dorm supervisor pokes his head out.
36:56
He's like, hey man, I don't care.
36:57
But somebody said that that you were wearing shorts out here.
37:00
So if you don't mind next time just just changed.
37:03
So even it's cool, cool about it.
37:05
But you know what, what was funny that next year they
37:09
actually changed that rule so guys couldn't wear shorts
37:12
outside. I'm around their dorms.
37:14
So I take credit As for getting that rule changed.
37:18
But anyway. I have one question.
37:21
I heard a rumor years ago, maybe Bob Jones, maybe the I can't
37:25
remember, but was Bob Jones the one that had men and women's
37:29
sidewalks? Were they?
37:31
No, no, I yeah, I, I I have heard that too.
37:39
I think that was I'm a joke at one time, but no, when I when I
37:47
was there, No, no, they didn't. So OK, but anyway have.
37:53
Anything else to add before we jump into?
37:55
The no, I don't think I mean one other thing.
37:58
Well, other things I'll add if you want to include this is
38:01
great. If not, that's fine.
38:04
When I first and this to kind of explains how you, you, you, you
38:08
could see who was fake and who was it.
38:11
When I was first there, there there was a rule.
38:15
No facial hair on students, faculty, staff, you know,
38:18
anything like that. Well, I.
38:21
Don't know if it was my sophomore.
38:22
Or junior year, but they had a play where Stephen Jones, the
38:26
president, I was in the play. You know, Bob Jones is real big
38:30
into Fine Arts plays, you know, our productions, things of that
38:34
nature. So they had a play where he
38:37
would he had to grow a beard for the for that part already in the
38:43
play. And it was a whole we're doing,
38:44
you know, you know, we're just doing this for the play.
38:47
But you know, as far as as folks being allowed to do that, I, I
38:53
always still don't condone that. Things like it's just for being
38:56
his play. So, but the students there and I
39:01
signed the petition. We traded A petition for Doctor
39:03
Steven Jones to keep his actual hair.
39:06
So he did after the play, he kept it.
39:08
And then the next year they made a rule that faculty, staff and
39:15
grad students could grow facial hair, but undergrads couldn't.
39:19
So I mean, at that point, every guy, you know, every grad
39:24
student, dorm super supervisor, things like that.
39:27
I mean, they, they, they all let their beard grow.
39:29
But what, what always struck me was the ones that would, that
39:33
grew their beards out, it seems like they were the ones who were
39:36
the most strict on undergrads as to shave them.
39:41
I'm like, that's so fake. You know, rules for the evil but
39:44
not or rules for me, but not over the and that's always stuck
39:48
with me. I like I know to this day guys
39:50
that grew their beards out but they were the most strict on
39:53
making sure that other folks kept their their beard shaped
39:58
so. Yeah, I'll tell you, I, I wasn't
40:02
allowed to grow a beard until I was 31 years old and I have had
40:07
a beard every day since then. So.
40:10
So I definitely can. It's just this instant
40:13
environment that they create with that legalism and they,
40:17
they kind of, you know, constructed that.
40:20
Well, let's get back to. To learn about that.
40:24
No, that's OK. Yeah.
40:25
Just talk to us about, you know, you stepping away from the IFB
40:29
and what was kind of the turning point there.
40:33
Yeah, so I think you asked him, you know, was it abrupt or, or
40:39
was it gradual? I would say for me, it's being
40:43
grad, grad gradual. And I mean, I, I wouldn't say
40:46
I've totally stepped away from me.
40:48
Of course, the, the hardcore IFB, the externals, all of that,
40:53
you know, I've, I've stepped away from, but in my mind, and
40:58
it started when I was in college.
41:00
But you know, when you're growing up, you hear a lot of
41:04
stuff preached that you know, is not in the Bible, but you just
41:09
kind of don't think, you don't think about it as a child.
41:14
But you know, as you get older or you become more mature, you,
41:19
you learn things, you, you start to examine that more.
41:23
And I'd say that's what I've done a lot the last 15 years or
41:27
so. You you, you know, try to, I
41:32
mean, it sounds cliche, but try to make my faith and practice
41:36
what's in the Bible. I will not what some man is the
41:39
side sided of what he thinks it says in the Bible.
41:43
And that's kind of been my whole what's kind of caused me to
41:50
turn, turn, turn, earn away from some of that hardcore IFB.
41:57
As I said, I'm before the church I go to now is I'm independent
42:02
Baptist. But my pastors said, you know,
42:04
we're not, you know, independent fundamental Baptist or anything
42:08
like that. You know, I go to, to a great
42:10
church up here in Virginia. You know, we have folks that
42:15
wear suits, folks that wear shorts, you know, and it's, it's
42:18
all in between, You know, we have women who wear dresses,
42:24
folks who wear jeans and it's, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't
42:27
matter matter, you know, if if you serve or if you're not
42:30
serving, you know, it, it's not not a big deal at my church.
42:35
And I think that's key because you know, through this IFP
42:41
movement, there's been a lot of focus on externals, what you
42:45
wear well, what you do things that are just not in Richard
42:50
that you can't find anywhere. And you bring in a new
42:55
progression to to a church and they hear some guy ranting and
42:58
raving about something that's not in the Bible.
43:01
Then that's really going to make them be like, well, why should I
43:05
even come here at all? And so I don't say, you know,
43:10
just to wrap it up, I mean it, it was a gradual shift and it
43:13
was just that only, I guess not being hardcore about something
43:22
that that's not in the Bible. So mainly focusing on what's in
43:25
the Bible. You know, the same thing with
43:27
the, the King James thing, you know, yes, folks prefer one or
43:33
the other and we can discuss that all day long.
43:36
But if if you can't go to the Bible and specifically tell me
43:40
one way or the other, then. You know that's not so.
43:45
What was there like a a hard part of stepping away?
43:48
Did you get any blowback or pushback from anybody for it?
43:55
No, I don't think so. No, I mean, I there hasn't
44:00
really been a hard part. You know, I, I have seen all the
44:06
things that, well, the things that's hard for me to see is we
44:10
went to church, like my home church back in, in North
44:17
Carolina. They've changed their music
44:20
song, you know, they have drums, they sing praise songs.
44:22
They have a, a world worship team, things of that nature.
44:25
You know, to see folks leave over that when the preaching
44:30
hasn't changed. I think for me, that's the
44:33
hardest part and the saddest thing to leave over something
44:37
like that when the preaching has not changed.
44:40
The pastor's still the same. He's still preaching the word
44:43
and the only thing that's changing, I mean, I know folks
44:46
have their new music styles that they prefer things of that
44:50
nature and that's fine. But I think it's sad that that
44:56
there's so much work that the church needs to be doing
44:59
externally, you know, winning folks to Christ, things of that
45:02
nature that we're fighting over, whether there's a a drum set in
45:07
church or it's a praise song or something white like that.
45:12
Got you. Well, one last question before
45:15
we conclude with any final thoughts you may have.
45:19
I get this phone call once a week, if not more than that, but
45:24
but guys will call me. I had a guy from Virginia
45:26
actually called me just a couple weeks ago and he, he said I'm
45:29
looking for a healthy church. I'm looking for something that
45:35
that is not what I was raised in.
45:38
I'm starting to question some of those core beliefs that we have,
45:42
lead drums, things like that. What advice would you give to
45:46
someone that's looking for that and how would you sort of help
45:50
someone been going through that process?
45:53
Yes. So what I would say and what
45:57
I've tried to do is focus on what's being preached.
46:01
From the the full pulpit. You know, is the pastor
46:05
preaching verse by verse or is he just getting up and reading a
46:08
verse and, you know, going off on a rant, rant, rant, rant, a
46:14
rant and rave for an hour? You know, what's the pastor's
46:17
spirit like? How does he treat the folks
46:19
there in the church? You know, you know, the main
46:24
thing I think is what's been preaching and is it from the
46:27
Bible? You know, how do the the
46:32
programs at the church fit into your family needs?
46:35
I've got a wife and three, three kids 85 and three.
46:39
You know, our church has a great kids pro pro program.
46:44
You, you youth group, children's church, things of that nature,
46:49
you know, are, are they are the needs of my children being met
46:54
through their children's church? You youth group, things of that
46:58
nature. You know, what's being taught
47:01
to, to, to, to, to them. You know, are there kids there?
47:06
You know, where I live in rural Virginia here, there's a lot of
47:12
churches that don't have a lot of young people.
47:14
I mean, it's just an older population here.
47:17
So a lot of the churches that you visit here, you know, every,
47:22
everyone there, some is over 60 and that's great.
47:26
But if you've got a young family, then that might not be
47:29
the best, the best place for you.
47:33
You know, right now we drive about 40 and it's 222 church
47:38
just because of where, where we we live.
47:43
So I think it's just key to focus on what the pastor's
47:46
preaching. You know, if you prefer a music
47:50
style King James or not, you know, that's fine, I guess.
47:54
But you know, I've kind of moved beyond that.
47:58
I mean, you know, I think it's what's being preached.
48:02
Is it from the Bible? Are your kids and are your
48:05
family's needs being met there? And then how can you serve?
48:10
How can you get it? Get, get involved and serve.
48:14
Thanks man. I appreciate it.
48:14
Well, any closing thoughts for you, anything that that you may
48:18
want to share with our listeners or things that you may have a
48:21
Brett, maybe you've got a question for him as well that he
48:24
said something. No, I'm but just want to know
48:28
just would you have any closing thoughts or anything you'd like
48:31
to you'd like to say before we sign off?
48:33
Yeah, I'll just say, I mean, as you can tell from my interview
48:39
here, I mean my experience there at Bob Jones, I was great.
48:44
I know that's not the case for everyone.
48:46
I'm sure you'll talk to folks who I did not have a good
48:49
experience there. You know, I've heard of some
48:52
very bad things that have gone on there over the years.
48:57
I personally did not witness that.
49:01
I've never seen anything like that in my 4 years there.
49:04
So I can't speak to do do that. I know there was an issue, I
49:11
guess in the the late 99 nineties or early 2000s about
49:17
I'm interracial dating at Bob Jones when I was there.
49:20
That was not a that was not an an issue.
49:24
There was plenty of interracial dating going going on and that
49:27
that that was no problem. I mean, I'm sure it was, I'm
49:33
sure it was before I was there, but my, my time there no so
49:40
well, like I said, I mean, I had a unbelievably, I had a great
49:44
experience there. I recognize that may not be the
49:46
case for everyone. And if there is someone there
49:50
that that has some bad problem or some bad issues there or some
49:54
that negative experiences, you know, I feel full, full, full,
49:58
full, full for them. And I hope that they can get
50:00
that. I hope that they, that they can
50:03
achieve all of the help that they need through, through,
50:07
through that. You know, and just one thing
50:12
I'll mention before we wrap up, there's been a lot of among some
50:18
of the BJU I'm alumni. I'm not, I'm, I'm on a couple
50:21
Facebook groups of alumni and there's been a lot of our
50:26
concern in recent years. I think in 2014, so four years
50:32
after I left Steve Pepf Pettit, he, he, he, he became the prep
50:37
president and he, he, he was there from 2014 to 2022.
50:43
And in my opinion, I mean, I didn't, I mean, I don't have any
50:49
direct connections to the college during that time, but in
50:52
my opinion, he did a great job. And I, he kind of, I removed
50:57
more of the external conformity rules.
51:00
He removed the church list, you know, the list of approved
51:05
churches, things like that. And he received a lot of
51:10
pushback from that from the board of trustees.
51:14
And he was, he was forced out in 2023.
51:19
And I think that's sad because he he was making some very,
51:23
very, very, very good change, changes and strides there at the
51:26
school. And since he's been forced out
51:29
in 23 that they've had three presidents since then.
51:34
And there's been actually just yesterday they named a new
51:43
president. So as far as that goes, I don't
51:48
know what direction he plans to take the school, but I know the
51:52
school is in some financial trouble from things I've heard
51:56
that the attendance is starting to, to go down some.
52:00
So, you know, I, I don't know what the future is, but I just
52:05
hope that they can stay in business to main to keep
52:11
providing folks a quality Christian educated nation.
52:16
Most Christian colonologist, as you're aware of, don't offer
52:21
things like business, accounting, science, things of
52:25
that that nature, you know, to go out and to do a secular type
52:28
jobs. So I think it's great to have a
52:30
place that can to provide that or of course, a study from a
52:35
Christian worldview. Love it.
52:38
Well, thank you, Joseph, for coming on today.
52:40
For sure. Share your testimony with us.
52:43
And. It's literally we enjoy.
52:46
It great. Thank you.
52:47
Yeah, a lot of times people question, we'll say, you know,
52:52
y'all are just doing this just to bash people or just a bash of
52:55
college. But you know, it is also good
52:57
just to be able to hear the good experiences.
52:59
You know, I have a great experience while I was at my
53:01
college. Yeah, looking back, there were
53:03
some things that I would do different, but it is great to
53:07
have that and hear that. And so thank you for coming on.
53:09
Yeah, for sure. As we close out, we we are
53:12
looking forward to the future of the podcast and the other
53:16
interviews we've got coming up. And so, until next time, to God
53:19
be the glory. Great things you have done.
53:24
Found my new name, Found that good grace, Found that healing.
53:30
And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that
53:34
has no ending. I found that second chance.
53:36
Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness, Found my
53:38
happiness. I've been singing ever since I
53:39
found my freedom. Thanks for listening to the Four
53:57
Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do
54:00
us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our
54:03
podcast or whichever podcast platform you use.
54:07
Be sure to join us next time for the Four Freedom Podcast.