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The Belonging Wound with Dr. Pauline Chiarizia · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: So five, four, three, two, and one. Our folks, welcome
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. Very excited to have
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: as my guest today, Dr. Pauline Caruzia. Pauline, welcome.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me here. This is
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  Speaker 2: so exciting.
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  Speaker 1: I appreciate it. You're welcome.
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  Speaker 2: Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Kritia is a licensed clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst who specializes
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  Speaker 1: in trauma, dissociation, attachment wounds, and the long-term impact of
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  Speaker 1: relational harm. Through her private practice, she works with individuals
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  Speaker 1: seeking deeper emotional understanding, healing, and greater connection to themselves
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  Speaker 1: and to others. Her approach integrates psychodynamic psychotherapy, relational psychoanalysis, mindfulness,
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  Speaker 1: and trauma-informed care to help clients explore unconscious patterns and
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  Speaker 1: foster lasting change. She's especially interested in the ways early
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  Speaker 1: relationships shape identity, emotional regulation, and the capacity for intimacy
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  Speaker 1: and authenticity. All right, Pauline, just a little bit about you.
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  Speaker 1: Before we get going, share with our listeners where you're
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  Speaker 1: from originally and where you are currently.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm currently working in London for myself, but I
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  Speaker 2: am half French, half Italian. but born and raised in
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  Speaker 2: the Netherlands. Wow. So you're European. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: You scored. Awesome.
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  Speaker 2: Very complex.
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  Speaker 1: All right. So let's dive in. Go back. How did
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  Speaker 1: this start for you?
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  Speaker 2: Honestly, for me, it started pretty early. I've known since
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  Speaker 2: I was about 14, 15 that I wanted to become
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  Speaker 2: a psychologist. Now the expertise when it comes to trauma,
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  Speaker 2: and especially developmental trauma, because it gets into your sense
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: of identity, belonging, and all of that complexity, that came
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  Speaker 2: much later. But just the field of psychology and the
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  Speaker 2: interest and the curiosity started quite young. Why?
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  Speaker 1: How?
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  Speaker 2: Honestly, just from my own experiences. That typical teenager years...
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  Speaker 2: where it's a little bit complex. And I, because of
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  Speaker 2: also the complexity I hold in terms of culturally speaking,
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  Speaker 2: growing up in a country that was, you know, it
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  Speaker 2: was great, but it was not the culture from my
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  Speaker 2: father nor my mother. I grew up with complexity, right?
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  Speaker 2: So the topic of just who I am, how do
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  Speaker 2: you fit in? How do you relate to other people?
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  Speaker 2: That started really young for me.
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  Speaker 1: And what did that look like specifically for you growing up,
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  Speaker 1: those challenges, that complexity?
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  Speaker 2: It felt, well, relationally speaking, it was quite difficult because
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  Speaker 2: I felt like I was building this capacity to connect
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  Speaker 2: with a lot of different people because I can hold
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  Speaker 2: that capacity. So it means, you know, if you are
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  Speaker 2: from a different culture, fine, I can welcome that individual
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  Speaker 2: difference quite openly because I understand what it's like to
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  Speaker 2: dip your toes in something different right so there are
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  Speaker 2: certain things in my life i'll say oh on that
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  Speaker 2: particular theme i might lean more into that culture but
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  Speaker 2: then on that one hold on oh you know my
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  Speaker 2: more dutch exposure will flourish so in that sense that
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  Speaker 2: was easier but then for me for my own personal
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  Speaker 2: life how do people relate to me right not fully
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  Speaker 2: french not fully italian grew up in holland but not
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  Speaker 2: tall blonde and you know i have an accent in
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  Speaker 2: every language i speak people cannot figure out they're like
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  Speaker 2: where'd you come from so it's you know i think
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  Speaker 2: it's i guess it's growing up as a third culture
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  Speaker 2: kid in a way.
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  Speaker 1: Right right interesting so you have this uh affinity for
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  Speaker 1: psychology you go through school How do things unfold for
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  Speaker 1: you as you hone in on this career in a sense?
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  Speaker 2: I think it was quite difficult. I'm not going to lie.
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  Speaker 2: It was quite challenging, especially that I had to move
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  Speaker 2: out from the Netherlands to London all by myself, which
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  Speaker 2: I was keen to do. But it's still something that
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  Speaker 2: you have to be brave enough to take that step
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  Speaker 2: as a 17-year-old I was at the time. And again, navigating,
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  Speaker 2: going to university and at the same time, trying to
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  Speaker 2: figure out who I am, which is so interesting because honestly,
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  Speaker 2: I feel like as a psychologist, that duality of like
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  Speaker 2: your personal development and your professional development, how it overlaps,
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  Speaker 2: but they're also separate identities. It's, you know, sort of
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  Speaker 2: like full circle there, but it was challenging. You know,
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  Speaker 2: I like what I do. I like the profession. But
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  Speaker 2: the doctorate was challenging. My master's wasn't easy being a
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  Speaker 2: 20-year-old something, right, trying to figure out who I am,
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  Speaker 2: how I want to grow. All of that was complex,
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  Speaker 2: you know. So very fan of the profession. But the
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  Speaker 2: process held a lot of complexity for me. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: When you started doing your hours and clinics, what was
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  Speaker 1: that like? How did that impact you? Were there the seeds?
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  Speaker 1: There must have been trauma sprinkled there. Oh, absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: So, you know, especially hence why I'm so keen to
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  Speaker 2: work with it in the first place, right? So absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: For me, there's an element of the belonging wound, like
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  Speaker 2: who am I, right? And how do people relate to me?
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  Speaker 2: There's always a bit of a gap there. So that's
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  Speaker 2: quite difficult. But then in terms of the... the hours
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  Speaker 2: and the growing as a practitioner, I did my doctorate
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  Speaker 2: in the midst of COVID. Oh, wow. And I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I'm telling you, yeah. Looking back now, it was the
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  Speaker 2: most challenging part of my life so far, but also
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  Speaker 2: the part that really made me into the clinician that
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  Speaker 2: I am. Because I really got like first row seats
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  Speaker 2: into how you try to Help someone who is going
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  Speaker 2: through trauma in the midst of trauma. I worked with
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  Speaker 2: a lot of health care staff at the time during
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  Speaker 2: my placements. I myself, there's that complexity of, OK, I'm
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  Speaker 2: in London. Am I traveling? Am I not? But I
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  Speaker 2: was I was helping out as a health care professional.
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  Speaker 2: Fine as a trainee, but still and also during the pandemic.
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  Speaker 1: As a person.
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  Speaker 2: It's like, do I travel home? Do I not? Do
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  Speaker 2: I see my friends? Do I not? I'm getting the
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  Speaker 2: vaccine earlier before my parents. This is really strange. So,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I actually, I burnt out. I have no
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  Speaker 2: problem saying that. I took a year off from clinical
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  Speaker 2: practice afterwards. I kept doing research. I finished my doctorate.
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  Speaker 2: But in terms of one-on-one clinical practice, I took a
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  Speaker 2: year out. And I also needed to take a step
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  Speaker 2: back of making sure that who I was becoming as
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  Speaker 2: a professional, it wasn't hiding the other parts of me.
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  Speaker 2: Because I felt like that was really easy to just
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  Speaker 2: slip into, honestly, because everything became my doctorate. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: it's already challenging enough to do a doctorate, right? But
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  Speaker 2: when you're in the midst of a pandemic, and so
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  Speaker 2: you're needed even more, right, on placements, and you are
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  Speaker 2: doing certain placements that are directly linked to that. I was,
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  Speaker 2: you know.
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  Speaker 1: So this idea of like hiding who you are, I
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  Speaker 1: kind of want to get clear on the internal, you've
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  Speaker 1: used the word complexity. Was it, and bear with me here,
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  Speaker 1: was it, as you said, you know, I'm not fully Italian,
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  Speaker 1: I'm not fully French, I'm not Dutch. Was, I don't know,
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  Speaker 1: say more about that.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's more of a, it's sort of like
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  Speaker 2: part work. I feel like I also grew up in
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  Speaker 2: an environment where it was very much like you were
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  Speaker 2: praised for what you do, not for who you are.
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  Speaker 2: So I know how that looks like. And when you're
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  Speaker 2: going through a huge pandemic and you're needed everywhere and
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  Speaker 2: you're a trainee and you're also doing a doctorate, that
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  Speaker 2: is amplified even more. So it was really important for
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  Speaker 2: me to make sure that I wasn't just like relating
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  Speaker 2: to myself as, oh, potential Dr. Pauline Chiaretia. But the
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  Speaker 2: other parts of me that like dancing, baking, right? Or
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  Speaker 2: just being out in the world in a different way
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  Speaker 2: without this, I'm a doctor sort of persona. Not that
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  Speaker 2: I'm performing right as a professional, but there's definitely a
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  Speaker 2: different way of holding yourself, for example. There's a different
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  Speaker 2: element of even the way that I feel things. Actually,
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  Speaker 2: if I have to go through a day and I'm
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  Speaker 2: seeing I'm doing clinical work, I might be in tune
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  Speaker 2: with what I'm feeling, obviously, but I might not take
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  Speaker 2: a moment to let something out. I'm like, okay, this
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  Speaker 2: has weight. I'll contain it. I'll breathe through it. I'm
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  Speaker 2: aware of it. I'm not attending to it quite yet.
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  Speaker 2: I think the risk sometimes when you have been praised
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  Speaker 2: for being needed versus people like you for who you
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  Speaker 2: are is that you can easily just spiral into that situation.
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  Speaker 2: And you get good at it. You get really good
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  Speaker 2: at doing lots of different things. It's not that you can't,
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  Speaker 2: you know, be productive. You can succeed at a lot
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  Speaker 2: of things. However, you get to a point if you're
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  Speaker 2: not careful. where your entire identity becomes what you do
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  Speaker 2: and what you offer to other people. And that's a
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  Speaker 2: quite vulnerable place to be. When I've experienced that sense
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  Speaker 2: when I was younger, for me, it definitely comes across
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  Speaker 2: as anxiety. I get quite anxious. So I use it
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  Speaker 2: as a compass now. As soon as I feel too
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  Speaker 2: anxious in my everyday life, I'm like, ooh, hold on.
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  Speaker 2: Let me have a look at how things have been lately,
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  Speaker 2: how balanced things have have I checked in with all
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  Speaker 2: different parts of me? Have I made enough space for
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  Speaker 2: different parts of me?
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  Speaker 1: Yes. I like that idea of using it as a compass.
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  Speaker 1: When you started seeing clients, even as a, as a
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  Speaker 1: young clinician, as a, as a student still and trauma
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  Speaker 1: was coming up, how was that sitting with you?
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  Speaker 2: At first, I'm not gonna lie, I was scared of it.
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  Speaker 2: I was afraid of not being able to hold it.
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  Speaker 2: Now it's very different. Actually, I'm quite, I welcome it
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  Speaker 2: with a lot more light. I feel like it's actually,
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  Speaker 2: you don't need to be afraid of it so much.
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  Speaker 2: But when I started, it's like, there's this drama in
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  Speaker 2: the room. What do I do with it? Do I
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  Speaker 2: name it?
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  Speaker 1: Do I not?
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  Speaker 2: So I think I immediately took the role of like,
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  Speaker 2: I have to fix, I need to know. And if
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know, then I'm not doing it right. And
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  Speaker 2: then they shouldn't trust me. So there was a lot
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  Speaker 2: of that when I, I mean, sometimes I would go
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  Speaker 2: into a session thinking, Are you sure? Like, I had
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  Speaker 2: a part of me that was doubting it a lot.
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  Speaker 2: But that, you know, I think over time... It's solidified into,
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  Speaker 2: you know what, it's okay to also not know. I
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  Speaker 2: always say this now when I ever speak to trainees,
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  Speaker 2: don't be afraid of not knowing because actually that is
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  Speaker 2: what allows you to then do research, ask questions, right?
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  Speaker 2: I think actually this is what allows you to grow.
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  Speaker 2: And modeling also to clients, this is fantastic. Once you
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  Speaker 2: figure out your style, right, and how you model that,
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  Speaker 2: it's like a very powerful intervention, clinically speaking. So it's okay. Look,
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  Speaker 2: I'm with you right there. This is messy, right? But
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  Speaker 2: let's not be afraid of sitting in it. We don't
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  Speaker 2: have to fix, which is usually what people carry in
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: terms of the way that they will try to, I guess,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not a huge fan of it, but defend it
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  Speaker 2: against or try to cope through it by fixing. Let's
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  Speaker 2: solve it. And actually, I'm inviting you to do none
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  Speaker 2: of that. sit, sit in the messiness that comes with that.
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  Speaker 1: It's so interesting because a lot of people go into
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  Speaker 1: the field, right? With the best intentions. And oftentimes it's
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  Speaker 1: to fix. We don't want, we want to prevent people
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  Speaker 1: from experiencing what the pain and suffering that we felt.
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  Speaker 1: But you're, I agree with everything you're saying there. So
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  Speaker 1: talk to us about this idea of developmental trauma and
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  Speaker 1: identity and which I think is such a rich topic,
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  Speaker 1: when did that start to get on your radar? What
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  Speaker 1: did that look like?
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  Speaker 2: During COVID. Because I was actually very surprised by what
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  Speaker 2: I was seeing when I worked with healthcare workers. I
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  Speaker 2: expected to get a lot of stories about shock from
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: what they were seeing. And, you know, I'm not saying
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  Speaker 2: it wasn't there, but it wasn't the bigger picture. A
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  Speaker 2: lot of them were struggling with.
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  Speaker 2: They had predispositions to struggle right and they were struggling
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: with the idea of when it would stop because when
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: it would stop there would be no more excuse of
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: not coming home and dealing with whatever is going on
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: there when it would stop they wouldn't be hiding behind
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  Speaker 2: uh constant healthcare sort of label, the other parts of
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  Speaker 2: them that obviously have carried life and other experiences and
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: other emotions, they would have to be more attuned to
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: that anymore. So for a lot of them, they struggled, yes,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: with the circumstances, I'm not taking that away. But it
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  Speaker 2: was very interesting to see also the other parts of, well,
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  Speaker 2: it's interesting to see how much this is difficult, but
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  Speaker 2: at the same time, it's also working as an avoidant
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  Speaker 2: element to something else. And every time we looked into that,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of it was developmental trauma. A lot of
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  Speaker 2: it was that.
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  Speaker 1: So the experience of COVID revealed cracks in the vessel,
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  Speaker 1: if you will.
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  Speaker 2: For a lot, I mean, you know, again, I can't
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  Speaker 2: speak on behalf of other people, right? But from the
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: things that I've picked up on from my practice, and
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  Speaker 2: at that point, I was in my third year, I
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: was finishing my doctorate. Yes, it was very, very interesting
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  Speaker 2: to see this, where people's relationships were their own bodies,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: because obviously, when you burn out, and you rely on
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  Speaker 2: your body a lot, I mean, let's say you're a
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: physio or something, and you're burning out, I mean, there's
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  Speaker 2: also a risk of certain injuries sometimes, right? For example,
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  Speaker 2: Or you are so burnt out and so not looking
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: after yourself that suddenly you're fainting at work, for example. Well,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: what do you do when suddenly you go from being
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: in really high demand, a lot of adrenaline in the
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: body being generated constantly, being named as, you know, like,
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  Speaker 2: oh my God, thank you for being here. You're a hero. Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 2: And to suddenly like, oh, I'm not functioning. Oh, now
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  Speaker 2: I'm hurt. Now I'm not part of the crowd anymore.
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  Speaker 2: Now I'm on the bench and I don't know when
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: I can come back. And so it's this very, again,
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  Speaker 2: it's complexity. Nobody liked COVID, right? I'm not saying that
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: people liked it and no one were affected by the
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: things that they saw. A lot of them were. But
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  Speaker 2: there's a bigger story there. People's relationships with themselves changed.
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  Speaker 2: They were a lot more raw. A lot of people
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  Speaker 2: also struggled with the way that they were being perceived
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  Speaker 2: by other people. And this is interesting in developmental trauma
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  Speaker 2: because you see this a lot, right? There's an element of,
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  Speaker 2: I survived through the way that you may perceive me.
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  Speaker 2: Once you shift it, it's different. But there's a bit
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: of a measurement there. But at the same time, you
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: can also sort of sometimes resent it almost. I don't
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  Speaker 2: like that. But without that, I don't know who I am.
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  Speaker 1: How do you define developmental trauma?
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  Speaker 2: So for me, I mean, if I really simplify it,
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  Speaker 2: it's about your needs not being met. Your needs not
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: being met somehow when you were growing up. And that
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  Speaker 2: forces you to adapt in one way or another. And
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  Speaker 2: that adaptation, you think it's your personality.
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  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 2: And at some point, you know, it works for a season.
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  Speaker 2: But over time, because you're suppressing other parts, you generally
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: just have never nurtured any other parts. There's almost like,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: for lack of a better word, an expiration date. At
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: some point, the body gets angry. The body gets burnt
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: out or anxious or depressed or, you know, you name it.
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  Speaker 2: It looks different for different people. But what's underneath is
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: a sense of, I've had to survive early. I don't
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: know that I don't have a lot of exposure to
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: the safety of people are here for me just because
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: I'm here and because they are here. There's something transactional.
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  Speaker 2: And so it's interesting because, yes, it can get you
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: places and, you know, you can be very ambitious and
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: all of that. But if it's your sense of identity.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: You get to points where you are in situations, just
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: like COVID, where you are in high demand. We need you. And,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: you know, like, yes, thank you for having that capacity, right?
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: So we don't want to villainize that capacity either. It
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: has its function. But again, if it's not balanced with
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: different parts of you, because we're multidimensional as human beings,
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  Speaker 2: at some point, there's a problem.
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  Speaker 1: And it sounds like it's... There's going to be a problem.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: It's inevitable. Like you said, there's an expiration date.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Yes. It always does at some point. For some people,
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  Speaker 2: it's the 30s. Some people, it's much later. But it's
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: because it's survival.
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  Speaker 1: So give us an example of an experience you've had
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: with someone you worked with. How does this come to
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: the fore? How is this uncovered in a sense?
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: I think often it, I think if I take a
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: really like the simplest way of putting it somewhat would
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: present a therapy saying I'm going through a burnout. I am,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I'm burnt out. I'm signed off from work for maybe
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: three months or six months and I need some therapy. Right.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: And it starts with conversations around boundaries and right. Like,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: how do you look after yourself? What happened? You obviously,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: as a clinician, you think you do an assessment, right?
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: You have a much bigger picture of who they are
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: and everything from the beginning. But it's so interesting to
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: sometimes see what was that predisposition? Because yes, right now,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: the way you're presenting is burnout symptoms. But if you
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: look at just a life story before and the elements
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: that really gave you a greater risk for burning out,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: if you think about developmental trauma, it links, it's painful
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: to say, but beautifully. Because with developmental trauma, it means
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: you don't know what your needs are.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Right. So you don't you're not in tune with yourself.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, it may manifest as I have
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: a great capacity for stress because you can take a lot.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: I keep saying this to clients. I'm like, it's not
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: because you can, you should. You have a great capacity,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: but it's not necessarily good for you.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: It's like they were forced to have a capacity.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Well, that's it. Right. So where is that agency? Do
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: you generally want to? So you see this a lot
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: with people who will say, oh, I didn't mind doing
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: that meeting, you know, when I was on vacation. Well,
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: it's not because you can arrange it. I know you
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: know how to deal with the logistics. And, you know,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: if you have to take 30 minutes or an hour
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: to jump into a very urgent meeting or something, it's
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: not about that. It's more about the boundary. You're on vacation.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Was this really needed? And do you feel like you
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: have the voice of having a conversation? Or do you assume, oh,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: I have to. I saw the email. I have to.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: So again... It's about learning what's good for me, what
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: are my needs. But with developmental trauma, you don't even
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: learn that you have any needs. You learn this is
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: what I have to do, whatever it is that you've
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: been taught, to survive. And the survival is linked to
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: other people. you see this in children in terms of
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: like they don't have a choice they don't choose family
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: they will choose who they have to be looked after
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: and this is that continuity just in adulthood so it's
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: learning that yes when you were young you didn't have
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: a choice that i get that we don't pick our
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: environments or parents as a grown adult though you definitely
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: can learn that agency Learning how to take a step
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: back and really consider where am I in this here?
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Because often it presents as this, oh, I don't know
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: where I came from. Like, well, hold on. Okay. Is
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: it that you don't know because you were so disconnected
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: that you couldn't, right? You really couldn't attune to that?
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Or was it that you felt it, but you're very
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: good at overriding yourself as well? That's a different dimension
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Wow. This is fascinating. Mm-hmm. Not that I'm identifying at
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: all with this.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: But a lot of people do. And listen, I have
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: as well. I've had, you know, and I think I
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: still sometimes, I'm very much like, okay, where are you
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: at in this? I work for myself. So I, yes,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: I have a supervisor, but no one's really checking me, right?
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Like I really have to make sure that I am
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: with myself and I don't push certain, you know, certain thresholds.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: So this idea of, you used burnout as an example,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: and agency and survivability and adaptability is, man, it's so interesting.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: And is it how, so we have to go back
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: and do what? What do you do when you go back?
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: That's a beautiful question. I mean, it's like, what do
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: you do with this information, right? Like, okay, so what?
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Something I think I've identified this just from the language
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: I've used over time with clients in practice. I think
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: it starts with giving yourself permission. Giving yourself permission to experiment,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: to step out of whatever norms you have been taught,
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: to Dare to try something else.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Give us an example.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Give yourself permission to go out on a Friday night
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: and have a drink by yourself. Even if you were
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: taught that that looks weird. Give yourself permission to rest.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: Even if it feels like you're lazy and you should
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: be doing something else. Do experiments.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Do experiments.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: The amount of people who say, oh, I've always thought
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: about doing this, but, you know, I've never had the
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: time where I've never just do. Just, you know what?
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: All of that noise around, I should have for a
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: wide day. So just, you know what?
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Great.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: You're just given something. Just try it.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Go out.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting. It's sort of like the equivalence of
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: kids being in a room and they know they have
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: the safety that someone is here. So they can experiment.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: They can touch the walls. They can sort of play.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: And they're just taking that in. How does that feel like?
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: It's sort of mimicking this. I'm giving you permission. Just go.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting because they will expect a really deep,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: you know, like really deep psychological sort of like answer.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: And I just go, well, what do you feel like doing?
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: What has been missing? You know, if you don't know,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: which often is what they will say, it's like, okay. Well,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: that last thing you complained about, what about you don't
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: do that? What happens if you leave one email on
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: read by the end of the day? Let's take that
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: in and just take it from there. There's an element
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: of also going slow. I know a lot of people
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: want to go fast, but with trauma, especially with mental trauma,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: there's an element of first allowing yourself to experiment outside
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: of the template that you know, because very often there's
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: shame involved with that mental trauma. It's like, well, sort
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: of this, you're holding this duality. One part is like,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: this isn't fitting anymore, which is exactly why they're coming
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: to see you. This is not, I can't do life
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: like this anymore. Something's not quite right. But then equally,
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: it's like, well, are you sure? You sure we can
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: change this? Because there's no template for that.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: It's like, I want a healthy relationship. And I know
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: how it looks like. I see it in movies or
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I hear about it, but I've never felt it. That
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: nervous system has no exposure for that. We need to
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: get some of that exposure. And it is okay.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And that suggestion just to do something.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: The opposite is almost just like pulling that little thread.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. And you can do this in a playful way.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: That's what I love to do. It doesn't need to
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: be this big, like, oh my God, I'm doing this
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: trauma work. You know, of course, at the end of
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: the day, that's what's happening. But you do not need
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: to relate to it in that way. You're adding more weight.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Just bring more light. It's like trying to bring more playfulness.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: What's that playfulness that was missing? Let's bring that back.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Now, let's go back to you. Now, how does all
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: this square with your experience?
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I still sometimes feel like I need to
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: go out and play and experiment and be in different environments.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: And I'll try once a month to do some, just
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: be in a different room, be in a different environment.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Right, right.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: To also make sure that you're not, I mean, I'm
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: all for routine and consistency, but again, right? If you're
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: presenting with that low mental trauma and you're trying to
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: make sure that you are sort of being the one
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: who chooses, how is my life looking, right? How is
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: my behavior having an impact on that? And you want
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: to keep working through that and making sure you don't
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: sort of get stuck somewhere.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: How have you, how have, the questions about your identity
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: settled in a sense.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, on some level they're still going. I
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: think there's a, I think it's holding the duality, you know,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: I think it's holding the duality on some level. It's
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: amazing that I have this, I can, you know, I
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: speak different languages. I can connect with different cultures. It's
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: easier for me also to welcome individual differences, right? If I'm,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: If you know how sometimes you feel something in the room,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: you're like, oh, this is a bit awkward. That is not.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: That's OK, because I've had that experience of someone getting something,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: say something to me. And that felt a bit off,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: but it felt off because you don't know that I
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: have this other part. And so, you know, I can
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: welcome that. Fine. But there's also an element of this
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: is messy. You know, sometimes it feels a little bit
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: also lonely and like who, who else gets this? And
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: also in terms of experience, it means I grew up
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: around a lot of international kids. So I've learned also,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: you know, like with some people you build long rapport,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: but I've also learned that some people come and go
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: quite young. Sometimes there is no specific, like, how do you,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: you know, how do you fit? How do you like,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: how do you, what, how does the other side of
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: the tunnel look like? I think sometimes it's about holding
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: different parts of you.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: And being able to hold them, being okay with that.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Let them coexist. Also, including the contradictions. You know, I
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: have sometimes, apparently, depending on the mood, this sort of
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: different cultural energy that comes out. Some people might not,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: you know, some people may relate to me through one
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: culture and not another. You know, that's how it is.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: As we kind of wind down here, Pauline, this idea
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: of developmental trauma and identity, you mentioned what burnout as one. Yes. What? Q.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: What are the other ones? What might the other ones be?
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Anxiety. Anxiety. I get a lot of anxiety presentations. There's
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: a lot. If you do a bit of work with them,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: four sessions in, you can really, really target shame and
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: developmental trauma.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: And not to say that those are concrete ideologies, but
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: they could be, you're saying. Oftentimes they could be.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: It's yes. I think it's also easy. It's easy to think, oh, well,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: you know, a struggle with panic or a struggle with
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: general anxiety disorder. And I'm not saying they're not a thing.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: They are. But sometimes it's also important to pause and
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: sort of think what's is their underlying structure today? Similarly
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: to when people are talking about attachment styles. Right. So
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: attachment styles, it will describe a pattern of behavior, right?
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: This is more about inviting what's maintaining that. Where's this
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: coming from? what's maintaining that it's not always developmental trauma
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: but when it is if you can identify this it's
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: quite important because you take the work in a different
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I just adapt my way of working with that person
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: I'm just aware okay there's a lot more depth here
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: I just need to make space for and hold, you know,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: that complexity for them and just go through that because
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: that means you're working on identity also.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Which is crucial, right? I mean, this idea of identity
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: and who we are, who we've built, how we've built
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: our life to this point. Messing with that in a sense,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: talking about that or questioning that could in and of
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: itself just be really destabilizing.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's huge. And I think this is why it's
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: so normalized. In therapy, when you are working with developmental trauma,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: that clients sort of drop off. They come back three
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: months later, drop off again. Like that is not uncommon.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: It is very scary. You know, I'm very aware. I mean,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: we're talking, I can talk about this forever in this way,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: but when you're sitting with it in the room and
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: you're really taking in what that means, it's incredibly destabilizing.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: It's scary. And that's why, you know, taking the time
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: to even How do we name that? Do we name that?
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I adjust the way that I'm working as soon
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: as I see it, but I might not just drop
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: the word. I think you have developmental trauma. I don't
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: do anything that way. That's way too difficult. But equally,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: making sure that the client understands, because often they ask,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: what's wrong with me? Why is it not working? I've
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: tried this and this and this type of treatment and
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: that is meant to work for this. So when I
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: hear sort of narratives like that, then sometimes it is
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: important to learn to slowly get to that. Let's name
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: this together. So you understand it's not that we can't
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: work through it. It just means you're missing a piece
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: of like the puzzle of what's been hurting. And it
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: just requires a different approach and which is okay. Cause
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: we're already in the midst of that. Okay. Like I
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: have already shifted. That's okay. But just so you feel
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: like you have that awareness of, That's important to get
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: at some point. I'm not saying straight away, but at
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: some point. But this is, you know, you're not alone
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: in it. You have a clinician. Ideally, you have someone
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: in therapy helping you name this. When you don't, how
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: do you name this?
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. All right, Pauline, how do people learn more
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: about you and how you work?
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: So I'm currently only working online, but you can definitely...
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Either email me. That's usually the best way of getting
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: in touch with me if you really want to. Or
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: you can also find me on Instagram. But I'm not
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: a huge fan of replying in DMs, just so you know.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: So you can find me online. But if you really
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: want to communicate with me, please just email me. That's
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: what I would really prefer.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Okay. And I'll have a link up. to your website
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: and there's a contact button there. Uh, we'll have all
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: that linked up here at the show notes page at
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: the trauma therapist podcast.com. Pauline, appreciate you being here. Appreciate
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: you sharing your, your, your, your, your own personal experience.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's, that's what this is about. That's how
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: we get, that's how we learn and get inspired. And
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: thank you so much.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: All right. We'll be in touch. Take care.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Bye.